Log for #openttd on 8th April 2017:
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06:23:38  <Alberth> moin
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06:42:30  <peter1138> hi
06:45:26  <Alberth> o/
06:46:33  <andythenorth> lo
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06:51:22  <peter1138> bugging me that water tiles next to the coast all dead-end onto the coast
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07:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's because coast tiles all register as water tiles
07:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so the water tile thinks it's adjacent to another water tile, and thus allows the trackbits
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07:35:42  <peter1138> no, water tiles don't do any adjacency checks
07:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> really? i thought that was a thing... either in the pathfinder's follow track function, or in the ship's enter tile function
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12:35:15  <quiznilo> so, I'm trying to understand production at Bulk Terminals with FIRS
12:36:19  <Alberth> what is not clear
12:36:21  <quiznilo> it looks like it doesn't matter how much inputs you send it, it generates the same amounts month by month, beyond the 'normal/enhanced/gung-ho' levels
12:36:42  <Alberth> yep, as with other FIRS industries
12:37:05  <Alberth> hmm, really the same eh?
12:37:15  <quiznilo> so beyond a certain level, it's 'wasteful' to send more to it, if you want more output
12:37:38  <Alberth> what does it need?
12:37:46  <quiznilo> clay and food
12:37:57  <quiznilo> and generates farm supplies and chemicals
12:38:07  <quiznilo> and its operating at 'gung-ho' level
12:38:46  <Alberth> and monthly output at the industry window is not going up?
12:39:07  <quiznilo> no
12:39:12  <quiznilo> and I'm really juicing it
12:39:13  <Alberth> ie there is a difference between what you get in the trains, and what the industry produces
12:39:17  <quiznilo> it looks like a primary
12:40:07  <Alberth> that concept is very blurred in FIRS, pretty much anything produces stuff
12:40:39  <quiznilo> yeah, it's very circular
12:40:42  <Alberth> you could wait for andythenorth here, he should know
12:40:59  <Alberth> or post a question in the forum
12:41:32  <Alberth> be sure to mention a version, there are a zillion different FIRS versions, and they tend to change cargoes :)
12:42:03  <Alberth> personally, I don't aim to maximize production, so I never ran into your problem
12:42:34  <Alberth> can't you fund a new terminal for the additional cargo that you have?
12:43:19  <Alberth> can't use the same station as the other terminal, each industry needs its own delivery station
12:43:42  <quiznilo> yeah
12:44:11  <Alberth> farm suplies may be a reason why it doesn't go up
12:44:14  <quiznilo> firs tends to generate giant amounts of little-used track and stations
12:44:36  <Alberth> the entire idea is that these are limited
12:44:44  <quiznilo> bulk terms say they take food and clay, and that's it
12:45:25  <Alberth> it changes per version and economy :p
12:45:39  <quiznilo> they generate farm supplies, which I take... 162/month, and never higher
12:46:30  <Alberth> yeah, as I said, it may be intentional to limit supplies production, but I don't know
12:47:05  <quiznilo> yeah, it looks like a primary industry, I expected proportional output
12:47:56  <quiznilo> I'm getting the income from bringing all this stuff here
12:48:40  <Alberth> GRF industries have full control over how production scales with input, basically it can do anything
12:49:44  <quiznilo> well, I'm done for today, have to work
12:49:46  <Alberth> I usually can't be bothered to do supplies, by the time I have most connections, I am bored of the game :)
12:49:59  <Alberth> ok, see you
12:50:41  <quiznilo> hah
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13:32:42  * frosch123 discovered pyspread
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13:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> what does that do?
13:45:04  <Alberth> spreading itself over all computers
13:45:23  <Alberth> aka distributed-processing
13:45:43  <Alberth> andy used it for a while at least
13:46:09  <frosch123> <- i mean that
13:46:28  <frosch123> it's a spreadsheet application, but with python types and syntax
13:46:32  <Alberth> almost :p
13:46:42  <Alberth> spiffy
13:48:18  <frosch123> but i would totally expect andy to build a cross-computer fork-bomb
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14:08:10  <quiznilo> eep
14:18:30  <Alberth> ha, it was "spread", it's still on the wiki, but the link is dead
14:26:21  <peter1138> Whew, that was a ride & a half
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15:39:26  <DannyK_> Hello
15:39:50  <DannyK_> I think I have found a bug in OpenTTD
15:40:30  <DannyK_> Could someone take a look?
15:47:35  <FLHerne> DannyK_: What bug have you found?
15:48:03  <DannyK_> FLHerne: it's got to do with signals
15:48:06  <FLHerne> (bugs should go at once you're sure they exist)
15:48:26  <DannyK_>
15:48:53  <FLHerne> Ah, that's not a bug, that's just how path signals work
15:48:57  <FLHerne> Er, block signals
15:49:06  <FLHerne> Path signals don't
15:49:22  <DannyK_> And another one, when depot is disconnected:
15:49:27  <peter1138> yeah, it's in the same block
15:49:34  <DannyK_>
15:49:40  <FLHerne> Block signals are fairly stupid, they go red when anything is in the track region between them and the next signal
15:50:17  <peter1138> it's disconnected, of course it's green
15:50:31  <FLHerne> There are no signals on the depot loop, so both ends are in the same signal block
15:51:16  <FLHerne> Either put a signal on the loop, or use path signals before junctions
15:51:25  <peter1138> s/before junctions//
15:51:30  <FLHerne> (using path signals before junctions is usually simpler)
15:52:14  <FLHerne> peter1138: Some people get upset if you use path signals where they aren't needed
15:52:36  <peter1138> Yes. Some people voted Trump or for Brexit. Doesn't mean it's right.
15:52:40  <FLHerne> (they're a bit ugly and supposedly slow the server down a bit more)
15:52:50  <FLHerne> But yes
15:53:05  <DannyK_> I don't really get why the 4th signal goes red and not the second one ... probably because I'm stupid lol
15:53:52  <peter1138> DannyK_, there's a direct loop of track, making it part of the block that the train is in.
15:55:01  <peter1138> 77mile/125km ride, tomorrow promises to be shorter.
15:55:36  <FLHerne> DannyK_:
15:55:42  <DannyK_> Still, don't get it, forgive me, I'm quite new to this ...
15:56:14  <FLHerne> DannyK_: Path signals (the tall ones) are intelligent, they work out the route the train needs to follow and reserve only that
15:56:53  <FLHerne> DannyK_: Block signals (the short ones you're using) are a bit stupid, they just check whether the block they're protecting has a train anywhere in it
15:57:44  <FLHerne> When the train goes past the first signal you've circled, the block I've marked in red has a train in it
15:58:14  <FLHerne> The other one you've circled is an entry to the same block, so it goes red
16:10:19  <quiznilo> those pulsating gifs
16:11:48  <quiznilo> no andy north yet?
16:12:37  <quiznilo> DannyK_: you know what a 'block' of track is?
16:13:40  <DannyK_> quiznilo: a section between two signals?
16:13:48  <quiznilo> ya, mostly
16:14:05  <quiznilo> it's a contiguous section of track not interrupted by a signal
16:14:32  <quiznilo> can you see how that part of the track behind both red block signals constitutes a single block?
16:14:54  <quiznilo> so, when one signal goes red, the other will go red
16:15:11  <quiznilo> because the block becomes occupied by that train
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16:19:29  <quiznilo> go into settings/Interface/Viewports and tick 'Show path reservations for tracks' to 'on'
16:19:40  <quiznilo> you'll get visual feedback as to what is happening
16:20:48  <Alberth> quiznilo: doesn't work usefully for block signals
16:21:08  <quiznilo> ah well
16:22:03  <DannyK_> I wish there was a way to see how a track gets divided into blocks ...
16:22:07  <Alberth> DannyK_: is the section after the first signal, along the depot, upto the firfth signal (ie after the 4th signal) one block?
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16:23:15  <DannyK_> Alberth: I think so
16:23:32  <quiznilo> is it interrupted by a signal at any point?
16:23:47  <quiznilo> along the path in front of the depot?
16:24:30  <DannyK_> quiznilo: Does the depot's inbuilt signal count?
16:24:39  <quiznilo> no
16:26:07  <DannyK_> quiznilo: Then I don't think it is interrupted by any signal along the way up to the fourth signal
16:27:22  <quiznilo> ya.. so then it's a block.  Each color here marks a different block, and once a train enters that red block, all signals into that area will also go red
16:27:27  <Alberth> for a block protected by block-signals, all ingoing signals become red when a train enters, right?
16:27:59  <Alberth> so when the train pass the 1st signal, the 4th signal (another entry to the same block) also goes red
16:28:11  <peter1138> heh, still on this :p
16:28:39  <Alberth> response-time is somewhat slow :)
16:29:21  <quiznilo> signalling is fundamental
16:29:27  <quiznilo> it's important to understand it
16:30:32  <Alberth> it's also quite complicated if you don't see the principle
16:31:45  <quiznilo> it's very important, otherwise trains will crash
16:31:49  <quiznilo> and people will die
16:32:12  <Alberth> nah, 2nd train won't get out the depot :)
16:32:42  <Alberth> and I have seen people making tracks dedicated for each train :D
16:33:30  <Alberth> an insane amount of track of course, but it works
16:34:54  <DannyK_> Alberth: That's how I was years ago, before I got to give OpenTTD a try again yesterday and decided to understand signals once and for all ...
16:36:26  <Alberth> makes sense
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16:37:12  <quiznilo> pronland continues to grow and it's the weekend, so I should work some on it
16:39:11  <DannyK_> It may sound ridiculous, but grasping the signalling is harder for me than programming haha
16:39:41  <Alberth> I have seen people that can program struggle before, so yep
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16:40:31  <quiznilo> if I weren't lazy, I could make some pngs that quite clearly illustrate what a 'block' is, and how the signals work around them
16:41:15  <Alberth> I would expect some signalling guides to exist at the web, as well as YT, imho
16:41:36  <DannyK_> quiznilo: I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who would've found them life-saving
16:44:18  <Alberth> the biggest mistake of a lot of guides is that they try to explain all signals, while the one-way path signals covers about 95% of your needs
16:44:47  <Alberth> the two-way path signal does the other 4.999%
16:44:48  <quiznilo> I don't like one-way path signallers... there is something wrong with them
16:44:52  <quiznilo> block signals forever
16:45:15  <Alberth> simple block signal covers about 80%
16:45:44  <DannyK_> I don't understand why it is the 4th signal that turns red (along with the 1st one) and not the 5th one, past that loop ...
16:45:44  <quiznilo> I use simple block signals 90% of the time, the rest of the time I use path signal
16:45:54  <Alberth> all the other weirdo combo signals do the other 20%
16:46:28  <quiznilo> one the train enter a block, any block, all the block signals at the entrance to that block will turn red
16:46:37  <Alberth> the latter are also useful for the remaining 0.001% with path signals
16:46:51  <quiznilo> they only allow 1 train at a time into a block, and as soon as a train enters, they all go red
16:46:51  <Alberth> hmm, let's make a set of pictures, one moment
16:47:10  <quiznilo> the 5th signal is an entry signal for the following (empty) block, and stays green
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16:51:16  <quiznilo> this is the key image.  every different color is a different block of track... once the train enters the 'red' block, all the entry signals into the red block turn red, first and fourth signal.  That fifth signal will turn red if a train enters the orange block of track
16:57:59  <Alberth>
16:59:55  <Alberth> left-most picture, train could be there, with green signal for next block, suppose that signal stays green when 2nd train runs through 1st signal like in the middle picture. You could end up with the right-most picture if the second train goes along the depot
17:00:28  <Alberth> if the signal before the 1st train does not turn red, the first train could now enter the same block, and you would have a collision
17:00:52  <glx> it's due to the crossing, even if it's an unreachable path
17:04:43  <quiznilo> DannyK_: don't over-think it, it's simple, when a train is in a block, all block signals into that block will turn red
17:04:47  <quiznilo> are we beating a dead horse?
17:06:03  <quiznilo> anyone know about FIRS industries?  Perhaps I should look at the source code.
17:06:27  <Alberth> then you need the correct revision :)
17:07:25  <quiznilo> a 'psd' file is a graphics file?
17:08:43  <Alberth> yes, it's not a source file at least
17:08:54  <Alberth> hmm, likely you won't even find the source
17:09:00  <Alberth> it's all python generated
17:09:06  <quiznilo> I'm looking at
17:09:08  <Alberth> what version do you have?
17:09:35  <quiznilo> whatever the in-game deal downloads
17:09:49  <quiznilo> 2.1.5
17:10:12  <quiznilo> oh lordy... python
17:10:12  <Alberth> sheep_farm/sheep_farm.psd: Adobe Photoshop Image, 500 x 350, RGB, 3x 8-bit channels   <-- yep, graphics file :)
17:11:27  <Alberth> let me see if I can get some source for you :)
17:11:48  <quiznilo> it's here
17:12:04  <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryOrganic
17:12:10  <quiznilo> that's what I want
17:12:50  <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryPort(id='bulk_terminal' aha!  I knew it, it's a primary industry
17:15:53  <Alberth>
17:16:28  <Alberth> generated parameterized nml code for the bulk terminal
17:20:47  <_dp_> that python-nml looks cool, does it exist as a separate module?
17:20:57  <quiznilo> what do I use to view a pnml file?
17:21:23  <quiznilo> more
17:24:54  <Alberth> any text editor
17:25:57  <Alberth> my *.pnml is not python, it's nml source code to be processed by cpp, the C pre-processor
17:26:50  <Alberth> although in the meantime, andy wrote code to generate nml by python, thus eliminating the cpp step
17:27:19  <quiznilo> fancy
17:27:22  <_dp_> I meant *.py files
17:27:40  <Alberth> right, well, no idea, have a look in the repo
17:28:24  <_dp_> it seems to be part of firs right now
17:29:07  <_dp_> but would be nice if it could be used for writing other grfs too
17:34:19  <Alberth> it's fully tailored to firs
17:34:33  <quiznilo> it's a lot of work to make a program generic
17:34:49  <Alberth> if you write another industry set, bits may be re-usable
17:35:17  <Alberth> otherwise, it's probably just as fast to write your own template generator python code
17:35:53  <Alberth> ie use some templating library for python, hack a nml template, use python code to fill and generated all the templates, done
17:37:51  <_dp_> ye, already did smth like that
17:38:10  <_dp_> pretty basic though, mb I'll try to do smth more generic next time
17:38:34  <Alberth> it's going to be dedicated to one type of grf at best
17:38:54  <Alberth> unless you want to write pretty much a higher level nml language
17:39:39  <_dp_> well, higher level nml is exactly what I'm looking for
17:39:59  <Alberth> you're welcome to write nml2 :p
17:40:15  <_dp_> too much work :p
17:40:49  <Alberth> but higher level without closing off some directions is highly complicated
17:41:26  <Alberth> simple dedicated program beats the shit out of it :)
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27849 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2017-04-08 19:45:39 +0200 )
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> korean: 4 changes by telk5093
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18:08:55  <quiznilo> there we go... industries classified
18:10:31  <quiznilo> also, I love the splash screen, there are a ton of good station confi ideas on it
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18:22:15  <Non-ICE> \o/
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19:25:50  <peter1138> omg no real commits for 4 days, this game is dead!
19:28:59  <Samu> buff ships
19:29:09  <peter1138> how's the caching going
19:29:21  <_dp_> no real commits in two years if you ask me :p
19:29:27  <Samu> i stopped, i suppose i won't go anywhere with it
19:30:20  <Samu> im not a real programmer :(
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19:40:57  <quiznilo> ships are OP, buff airports
19:57:34  <peter1138> Samu, pfft, giving up is for losers
20:13:45  <quiznilo> anyone know if there is any difference between 'unload all' and 'transfer'?
20:13:47  <quiznilo> o.O
20:14:50  <quiznilo> all these hidden mysteries of ottd
20:15:04  <peter1138> yes, one unloads, and one transfers
20:16:27  <_dp_> iirc only difference is that transfer gives fake income
20:18:10  <_dp_> oh, and probably doesn't transfer cargo to industry even if station accepts it
20:18:31  <FLHerne> quiznilo: They're equivalent unless there's an accepting industry next to the station
20:18:51  <quiznilo> ah!  I was wondering about that, what to do in that situation... makes sense
20:19:47  <FLHerne> quiznilo: "Unload all" allows cargo to be delivered to surrounding industries/buildings, "transfer" keeps all the cargo on the station
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20:21:44  <quiznilo> clever
20:21:51  * _dp_ played with hotkeys for so long that don't even remember what orders actually do xD
20:22:39  <quiznilo> hmm...
21:36:23  <_dp_>
21:52:04  <peter1138> uhh k
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22:42:23  <_dp_> oh, almost missed codejam %)
22:42:55  <_dp_> guess merging 1.7.0 can wait some more xD
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