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00:32:48 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:48:32 *** chomwitt1 has quit IRC 00:49:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 00:51:23 *** Samu has quit IRC 02:41:39 *** glx has quit IRC 02:42:31 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 05:10:53 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 05:24:06 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd 06:21:38 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 06:23:25 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 06:23:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 06:23:38 <Alberth> moin 06:23:55 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:42:30 <peter1138> hi 06:45:26 <Alberth> o/ 06:46:33 <andythenorth> lo 06:48:09 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 06:51:22 <peter1138> bugging me that water tiles next to the coast all dead-end onto the coast 06:55:05 *** DDR has quit IRC 07:04:36 *** Progman has joined #openttd 07:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's because coast tiles all register as water tiles 07:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so the water tile thinks it's adjacent to another water tile, and thus allows the trackbits 07:23:58 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 07:34:34 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 07:35:42 <peter1138> no, water tiles don't do any adjacency checks 07:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i thought that was a thing... either in the pathfinder's follow track function, or in the ship's enter tile function 07:50:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 07:53:22 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest853 07:53:23 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 07:56:25 *** Guest853 has quit IRC 07:56:38 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:56:39 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 08:12:03 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 08:14:37 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest857 08:14:39 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 08:16:09 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 08:17:02 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 08:18:25 *** Guest857 has quit IRC 08:20:20 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 08:28:38 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 09:48:40 *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC 09:53:58 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 10:15:43 *** Gja has joined #openttd 10:17:49 *** Samu has joined #openttd 10:20:40 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 10:35:09 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:05:35 *** Progman has quit IRC 11:07:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd 11:11:36 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:14:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 11:14:56 *** Gja has quit IRC 11:16:11 *** Gja has joined #openttd 11:26:15 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 12:01:05 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 12:04:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 12:17:55 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd 12:21:32 *** Progman has quit IRC 12:21:45 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 12:23:19 *** Gja has quit IRC 12:35:15 <quiznilo> so, I'm trying to understand production at Bulk Terminals with FIRS 12:36:19 <Alberth> what is not clear 12:36:21 <quiznilo> it looks like it doesn't matter how much inputs you send it, it generates the same amounts month by month, beyond the 'normal/enhanced/gung-ho' levels 12:36:42 <Alberth> yep, as with other FIRS industries 12:37:05 <Alberth> hmm, really the same eh? 12:37:15 <quiznilo> so beyond a certain level, it's 'wasteful' to send more to it, if you want more output 12:37:38 <Alberth> what does it need? 12:37:46 <quiznilo> clay and food 12:37:57 <quiznilo> and generates farm supplies and chemicals 12:38:07 <quiznilo> and its operating at 'gung-ho' level 12:38:46 <Alberth> and monthly output at the industry window is not going up? 12:39:07 <quiznilo> no 12:39:12 <quiznilo> and I'm really juicing it 12:39:13 <Alberth> ie there is a difference between what you get in the trains, and what the industry produces 12:39:17 <quiznilo> it looks like a primary 12:40:07 <Alberth> that concept is very blurred in FIRS, pretty much anything produces stuff 12:40:39 <quiznilo> yeah, it's very circular 12:40:42 <Alberth> you could wait for andythenorth here, he should know 12:40:59 <Alberth> or post a question in the forum 12:41:32 <Alberth> be sure to mention a version, there are a zillion different FIRS versions, and they tend to change cargoes :) 12:42:03 <Alberth> personally, I don't aim to maximize production, so I never ran into your problem 12:42:34 <Alberth> can't you fund a new terminal for the additional cargo that you have? 12:43:19 <Alberth> can't use the same station as the other terminal, each industry needs its own delivery station 12:43:42 <quiznilo> yeah 12:44:11 <Alberth> farm suplies may be a reason why it doesn't go up 12:44:14 <quiznilo> firs tends to generate giant amounts of little-used track and stations 12:44:36 <Alberth> the entire idea is that these are limited 12:44:44 <quiznilo> bulk terms say they take food and clay, and that's it 12:45:25 <Alberth> it changes per version and economy :p 12:45:39 <quiznilo> they generate farm supplies, which I take... 162/month, and never higher 12:46:30 <Alberth> yeah, as I said, it may be intentional to limit supplies production, but I don't know 12:47:05 <quiznilo> yeah, it looks like a primary industry, I expected proportional output 12:47:56 <quiznilo> I'm getting the income from bringing all this stuff here 12:48:40 <Alberth> GRF industries have full control over how production scales with input, basically it can do anything 12:49:44 <quiznilo> well, I'm done for today, have to work 12:49:46 <Alberth> I usually can't be bothered to do supplies, by the time I have most connections, I am bored of the game :) 12:49:59 <Alberth> ok, see you 12:50:41 <quiznilo> hah 12:52:22 *** Gja has joined #openttd 13:13:25 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 13:32:42 * frosch123 discovered pyspread 13:34:06 *** Progman has quit IRC 13:36:03 *** Progman has joined #openttd 13:40:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 13:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that do? 13:45:04 <Alberth> spreading itself over all computers 13:45:23 <Alberth> aka distributed-processing 13:45:43 <Alberth> andy used it for a while at least 13:46:09 <frosch123> https://manns.github.io/pyspread/index.html <- i mean that 13:46:28 <frosch123> it's a spreadsheet application, but with python types and syntax 13:46:32 <Alberth> almost :p 13:46:42 <Alberth> spiffy 13:48:18 <frosch123> but i would totally expect andy to build a cross-computer fork-bomb 13:53:43 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 14:07:28 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 14:08:10 <quiznilo> eep 14:18:30 <Alberth> ha, it was "spread", it's still on the python.org wiki, but the link is dead 14:26:21 <peter1138> Whew, that was a ride & a half 15:08:50 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:17:54 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 15:38:40 *** DannyK_ has joined #openttd 15:39:26 <DannyK_> Hello 15:39:50 <DannyK_> I think I have found a bug in OpenTTD 15:40:30 <DannyK_> Could someone take a look? 15:47:35 <FLHerne> DannyK_: What bug have you found? 15:48:03 <DannyK_> FLHerne: it's got to do with signals 15:48:06 <FLHerne> (bugs should go at https://bugs.openttd.org/ once you're sure they exist) 15:48:26 <DannyK_> https://k82.imgup.net/1-depot-co4c38.gif 15:48:53 <FLHerne> Ah, that's not a bug, that's just how path signals work 15:48:57 <FLHerne> Er, block signals 15:49:06 <FLHerne> Path signals don't 15:49:22 <DannyK_> And another one, when depot is disconnected: 15:49:27 <peter1138> yeah, it's in the same block 15:49:34 <DannyK_> https://k32.imgup.net/2-depot-dia345.gif 15:49:40 <FLHerne> Block signals are fairly stupid, they go red when anything is in the track region between them and the next signal 15:50:17 <peter1138> it's disconnected, of course it's green 15:50:31 <FLHerne> There are no signals on the depot loop, so both ends are in the same signal block 15:51:16 <FLHerne> Either put a signal on the loop, or use path signals before junctions 15:51:25 <peter1138> s/before junctions// 15:51:30 <FLHerne> (using path signals before junctions is usually simpler) 15:52:14 <FLHerne> peter1138: Some people get upset if you use path signals where they aren't needed 15:52:36 <peter1138> Yes. Some people voted Trump or for Brexit. Doesn't mean it's right. 15:52:40 <FLHerne> (they're a bit ugly and supposedly slow the server down a bit more) 15:52:50 <FLHerne> But yes 15:53:05 <DannyK_> I don't really get why the 4th signal goes red and not the second one ... probably because I'm stupid lol 15:53:52 <peter1138> DannyK_, there's a direct loop of track, making it part of the block that the train is in. 15:55:01 <peter1138> 77mile/125km ride, tomorrow promises to be shorter. 15:55:36 <FLHerne> DannyK_: http://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png 15:55:42 <DannyK_> Still, don't get it, forgive me, I'm quite new to this ... 15:56:14 <FLHerne> DannyK_: Path signals (the tall ones) are intelligent, they work out the route the train needs to follow and reserve only that 15:56:53 <FLHerne> DannyK_: Block signals (the short ones you're using) are a bit stupid, they just check whether the block they're protecting has a train anywhere in it 15:57:44 <FLHerne> When the train goes past the first signal you've circled, the block I've marked in red has a train in it 15:58:14 <FLHerne> The other one you've circled is an entry to the same block, so it goes red 16:10:19 <quiznilo> those pulsating gifs 16:11:48 <quiznilo> no andy north yet? 16:12:37 <quiznilo> DannyK_: you know what a 'block' of track is? 16:13:40 <DannyK_> quiznilo: a section between two signals? 16:13:48 <quiznilo> ya, mostly 16:14:05 <quiznilo> it's a contiguous section of track not interrupted by a signal 16:14:32 <quiznilo> can you see how that part of the track behind both red block signals constitutes a single block? 16:14:54 <quiznilo> so, when one signal goes red, the other will go red 16:15:11 <quiznilo> because the block becomes occupied by that train 16:18:19 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 16:19:29 <quiznilo> go into settings/Interface/Viewports and tick 'Show path reservations for tracks' to 'on' 16:19:40 <quiznilo> you'll get visual feedback as to what is happening 16:20:48 <Alberth> quiznilo: doesn't work usefully for block signals 16:21:08 <quiznilo> ah well 16:22:03 <DannyK_> I wish there was a way to see how a track gets divided into blocks ... 16:22:07 <Alberth> DannyK_: is the section after the first signal, along the depot, upto the firfth signal (ie after the 4th signal) one block? 16:22:08 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 16:23:15 <DannyK_> Alberth: I think so 16:23:32 <quiznilo> is it interrupted by a signal at any point? 16:23:47 <quiznilo> along the path in front of the depot? 16:24:30 <DannyK_> quiznilo: Does the depot's inbuilt signal count? 16:24:39 <quiznilo> no 16:26:07 <DannyK_> quiznilo: Then I don't think it is interrupted by any signal along the way up to the fourth signal 16:27:22 <quiznilo> ya.. so then it's a block. Each color here marks a different block, and once a train enters that red block, all signals into that area will also go red https://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png 16:27:27 <Alberth> for a block protected by block-signals, all ingoing signals become red when a train enters, right? 16:27:59 <Alberth> so when the train pass the 1st signal, the 4th signal (another entry to the same block) also goes red 16:28:11 <peter1138> heh, still on this :p 16:28:39 <Alberth> response-time is somewhat slow :) 16:29:21 <quiznilo> signalling is fundamental 16:29:27 <quiznilo> it's important to understand it 16:30:32 <Alberth> it's also quite complicated if you don't see the principle 16:31:45 <quiznilo> it's very important, otherwise trains will crash 16:31:49 <quiznilo> and people will die 16:32:12 <Alberth> nah, 2nd train won't get out the depot :) 16:32:42 <Alberth> and I have seen people making tracks dedicated for each train :D 16:33:30 <Alberth> an insane amount of track of course, but it works 16:34:54 <DannyK_> Alberth: That's how I was years ago, before I got to give OpenTTD a try again yesterday and decided to understand signals once and for all ... 16:36:26 <Alberth> makes sense 16:37:10 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd 16:37:12 <quiznilo> pronland continues to grow http://i.imgur.com/cGEyKE9.jpg and it's the weekend, so I should work some on it 16:39:11 <DannyK_> It may sound ridiculous, but grasping the signalling is harder for me than programming haha 16:39:41 <Alberth> I have seen people that can program struggle before, so yep 16:40:26 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 16:40:31 <quiznilo> if I weren't lazy, I could make some pngs that quite clearly illustrate what a 'block' is, and how the signals work around them 16:41:15 <Alberth> I would expect some signalling guides to exist at the web, as well as YT, imho 16:41:36 <DannyK_> quiznilo: I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who would've found them life-saving 16:44:18 <Alberth> the biggest mistake of a lot of guides is that they try to explain all signals, while the one-way path signals covers about 95% of your needs 16:44:47 <Alberth> the two-way path signal does the other 4.999% 16:44:48 <quiznilo> I don't like one-way path signallers... there is something wrong with them 16:44:52 <quiznilo> block signals forever 16:45:15 <Alberth> simple block signal covers about 80% 16:45:44 <DannyK_> I don't understand why it is the 4th signal that turns red (along with the 1st one) and not the 5th one, past that loop ... 16:45:44 <quiznilo> I use simple block signals 90% of the time, the rest of the time I use path signal 16:45:54 <Alberth> all the other weirdo combo signals do the other 20% 16:46:28 <quiznilo> one the train enter a block, any block, all the block signals at the entrance to that block will turn red 16:46:37 <Alberth> the latter are also useful for the remaining 0.001% with path signals 16:46:51 <quiznilo> they only allow 1 train at a time into a block, and as soon as a train enters, they all go red 16:46:51 <Alberth> hmm, let's make a set of pictures, one moment 16:47:10 <quiznilo> the 5th signal is an entry signal for the following (empty) block, and stays green 16:49:11 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:49:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:51:16 <quiznilo> https://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png this is the key image. every different color is a different block of track... once the train enters the 'red' block, all the entry signals into the red block turn red, first and fourth signal. That fifth signal will turn red if a train enters the orange block of track 16:57:59 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/collision.png 16:59:55 <Alberth> left-most picture, train could be there, with green signal for next block, suppose that signal stays green when 2nd train runs through 1st signal like in the middle picture. You could end up with the right-most picture if the second train goes along the depot 17:00:28 <Alberth> if the signal before the 1st train does not turn red, the first train could now enter the same block, and you would have a collision 17:00:52 <glx> it's due to the crossing, even if it's an unreachable path 17:04:43 <quiznilo> DannyK_: don't over-think it, it's simple, when a train is in a block, all block signals into that block will turn red 17:04:47 <quiznilo> are we beating a dead horse? 17:06:03 <quiznilo> anyone know about FIRS industries? Perhaps I should look at the source code. 17:06:27 <Alberth> then you need the correct revision :) 17:07:25 <quiznilo> a 'psd' file is a graphics file? 17:08:43 <Alberth> yes, it's not a source file at least 17:08:54 <Alberth> hmm, likely you won't even find the source 17:09:00 <Alberth> it's all python generated 17:09:06 <quiznilo> I'm looking at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/psds 17:09:08 <Alberth> what version do you have? 17:09:35 <quiznilo> whatever the in-game deal downloads 17:09:49 <quiznilo> 2.1.5 17:10:12 <quiznilo> oh lordy... python 17:10:12 <Alberth> sheep_farm/sheep_farm.psd: Adobe Photoshop Image, 500 x 350, RGB, 3x 8-bit channels <-- yep, graphics file :) 17:11:27 <Alberth> let me see if I can get some source for you :) 17:11:48 <quiznilo> it's here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/arable_farm.py 17:12:04 <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryOrganic 17:12:10 <quiznilo> that's what I want 17:12:50 <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryPort(id='bulk_terminal' aha! I knew it, it's a primary industry 17:15:53 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/bulk_terminal.pnml 17:16:28 <Alberth> generated parameterized nml code for the bulk terminal 17:20:47 <_dp_> that python-nml looks cool, does it exist as a separate module? 17:20:57 <quiznilo> what do I use to view a pnml file? 17:21:23 <quiznilo> more 17:24:54 <Alberth> any text editor 17:25:57 <Alberth> my *.pnml is not python, it's nml source code to be processed by cpp, the C pre-processor 17:26:50 <Alberth> although in the meantime, andy wrote code to generate nml by python, thus eliminating the cpp step 17:27:19 <quiznilo> fancy 17:27:22 <_dp_> I meant *.py files 17:27:40 <Alberth> right, well, no idea, have a look in the repo 17:28:24 <_dp_> it seems to be part of firs right now 17:29:07 <_dp_> but would be nice if it could be used for writing other grfs too 17:34:19 <Alberth> it's fully tailored to firs 17:34:33 <quiznilo> it's a lot of work to make a program generic 17:34:49 <Alberth> if you write another industry set, bits may be re-usable 17:35:17 <Alberth> otherwise, it's probably just as fast to write your own template generator python code 17:35:53 <Alberth> ie use some templating library for python, hack a nml template, use python code to fill and generated all the templates, done 17:37:51 <_dp_> ye, already did smth like that 17:38:10 <_dp_> pretty basic though, mb I'll try to do smth more generic next time 17:38:34 <Alberth> it's going to be dedicated to one type of grf at best 17:38:54 <Alberth> unless you want to write pretty much a higher level nml language 17:39:39 <_dp_> well, higher level nml is exactly what I'm looking for 17:39:59 <Alberth> you're welcome to write nml2 :p 17:40:15 <_dp_> too much work :p 17:40:49 <Alberth> but higher level without closing off some directions is highly complicated 17:41:26 <Alberth> simple dedicated program beats the shit out of it :) 17:45:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27849 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2017-04-08 19:45:39 +0200 ) 17:45:49 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 17:45:50 <DorpsGek> korean: 4 changes by telk5093 17:48:10 *** Progman has quit IRC 17:48:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 18:03:02 *** Gja has quit IRC 18:08:55 <quiznilo> https://paste.pound-python.org/show/Xg6i2Uqa7gTv5DDnNKtD/ there we go... industries classified 18:10:31 <quiznilo> also, I love the splash screen, there are a ton of good station confi ideas on it 18:22:12 *** Non-ICE has joined #openttd 18:22:15 <Non-ICE> \o/ 18:28:56 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:40:46 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:40:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:47:42 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:59:00 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:11:54 *** DDR has joined #openttd 19:16:18 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 19:16:29 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 19:25:50 <peter1138> omg no real commits for 4 days, this game is dead! 19:28:59 <Samu> buff ships 19:29:09 <peter1138> how's the caching going 19:29:21 <_dp_> no real commits in two years if you ask me :p 19:29:27 <Samu> i stopped, i suppose i won't go anywhere with it 19:30:20 <Samu> im not a real programmer :( 19:34:19 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 19:40:57 <quiznilo> ships are OP, buff airports 19:57:34 <peter1138> Samu, pfft, giving up is for losers 20:13:45 <quiznilo> anyone know if there is any difference between 'unload all' and 'transfer'? 20:13:47 <quiznilo> o.O 20:14:50 <quiznilo> all these hidden mysteries of ottd 20:15:04 <peter1138> yes, one unloads, and one transfers 20:16:27 <_dp_> iirc only difference is that transfer gives fake income 20:18:10 <_dp_> oh, and probably doesn't transfer cargo to industry even if station accepts it 20:18:31 <FLHerne> quiznilo: They're equivalent unless there's an accepting industry next to the station 20:18:51 <quiznilo> ah! I was wondering about that, what to do in that situation... makes sense 20:19:47 <FLHerne> quiznilo: "Unload all" allows cargo to be delivered to surrounding industries/buildings, "transfer" keeps all the cargo on the station 20:21:10 *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC 20:21:44 <quiznilo> clever 20:21:51 * _dp_ played with hotkeys for so long that don't even remember what orders actually do xD 20:22:39 <quiznilo> hmm... 21:36:23 <_dp_> http://imgur.com/a/S7hHO 21:52:04 <peter1138> uhh k 21:56:28 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:03:26 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:08:08 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 22:11:17 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:12:59 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:12:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:14:20 *** DDR has quit IRC 22:20:03 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:25:13 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 22:42:23 <_dp_> oh, almost missed codejam %) 22:42:55 <_dp_> guess merging 1.7.0 can wait some more xD 22:51:33 *** Samu has quit IRC 23:07:27 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:10:46 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 23:14:10 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 23:27:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 23:33:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:34:31 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 23:36:45 *** Biolunar has quit IRC