Log for #openttd on 22nd April 2017:
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05:28:28  <Alberth> moin
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05:54:26  <andythenorth> o/
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06:25:06  <Alberth> hi hi
06:25:20  <Alberth> auzind is the new extreme ?
06:25:30  <Alberth> 94 industries :)
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06:34:52  <andythenorth> seems to be :)
06:34:56  <andythenorth> I didn’t try it yet
06:35:02  <andythenorth> curious how the mini-map holds up
06:35:04  <andythenorth> also map gen
06:35:20  <andythenorth> I think map-gen will fail at < 512x512
06:39:04  <Alberth> it doesn't seem to have much planming :)
06:46:18  * andythenorth downloads it
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06:47:10  <andythenorth> lot of parameters eh :)
06:48:05  <andythenorth> I guess Garry isn’t using double-size UI on a 13” laptop
06:48:23  <andythenorth> the minimap industry list fills nearly half my screen :)
06:54:23  <andythenorth> eh Garry has drawn vineyard vines
06:55:33  <Alberth> :o
06:59:57  * andythenorth needed some vines
07:03:44  <andythenorth> lots of ideas there
07:03:46  <andythenorth> interesting
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07:10:55  <Alberth> garry is quite creative :)
07:12:30  <andythenorth> shame he doesn’t have the version with graphviz docs
07:12:38  <andythenorth> industry chain view would be fun to see
07:16:25  <Alberth> don't think graphviz could draw it :p
07:16:58  <Alberth> hmm, hack nml compiler?  :p
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07:24:40  <andythenorth> :P
07:24:49  <andythenorth> be nice if nml had the option eh?
07:25:01  <andythenorth> it’s built the tree
07:25:12  <andythenorth> it’s just another output format at that point
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07:25:24  <andythenorth> actually, more flexible would be having nml dump json
07:25:31  <andythenorth> that’s a missing feature :D
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07:34:09  <Alberth> you can make these things quite generic, basically dump content of a grf in a human-readable way
07:34:25  <Alberth> overview of engines + graphics + stats
07:34:40  <Alberth> list of houses + size + years
07:34:42  <Alberth> etc
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07:46:24  <andythenorth> json -> html etc
07:46:32  * andythenorth doesn’t need it, but eh, might be useful
07:49:09  <andythenorth> eh will I stump up and draw a limestone quarry?
07:52:02  <Alberth> I think you have to eventually, nobody else will put the pixels in the right order
07:53:14  <Alberth> it might be easier to parse the grf
07:54:54  <andythenorth> grf2html :P
07:55:20  <andythenorth> I solved it by parsing the configuration, and cutting out intermediate formats :P
07:55:34  <andythenorth> but my approach seems to be…unusual
07:56:32  <Alberth> it needs programming skill, which most pixel artists lack
07:57:37  <Alberth> people tend to be either programmer or graphics artist, the combination is quite rare
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07:59:47  <andythenorth> sometimes I think of trying to make my stuff more generic
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08:00:22  <andythenorth> at this point, configuring vehicles is just stupid declarative python
08:00:31  <andythenorth> it has less to go wrong than nml, as long as you mind the syntax
08:00:45  <andythenorth> but eh, more interesting things to do :)
08:03:50  <Alberth> over-generalizing means sacrificing flexibility, which comes back to bite somewhen in the future :)
08:03:57  <Alberth> doing shopping, bbl
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09:33:12  <Wolf01> o/
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09:35:16  <Alberth> o/
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10:04:29  <Wolf01> Meow
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10:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> learning foreign languages is a useful skill
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10:47:09  <Wolf01> Mmmh, need a new printer driver
10:47:26  <andythenorth> rare
10:48:05  <Wolf01> Also I need to connect the printer again with usb
10:48:15  <Wolf01> The printer is 2 stories below
10:56:23  <Alberth> use a long cable
10:57:41  <Wolf01> I need a 40m usb cable
10:57:54  <andythenorth> I have a 3.3m one
10:57:59  <andythenorth> get 12 of those
11:00:38  <Wolf01> I need to realign the printing heads too
11:01:28  <Wolf01> Maybe not... the alignment page is perfect, but when I print text I get a shadow on the text
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11:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have a 10m-ish usb cable
11:24:44  <andythenorth> “UserWarning: The installed version of lxml is too old to be used with openpyxl”
11:24:46  <andythenorth> such
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11:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, cable is probably more like 5m
11:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it was longer in my memory
11:30:48  <Alberth> the joys of open source, only support the latest :)
11:30:59  <Alberth> cable might have shrunk
11:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yesterday there was an article about how many programs embed open source tools in very old (and vulnerable) versions
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11:36:37  <andythenorth> > some
11:36:40  <andythenorth> < all
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11:55:23  <Wolf01> Quak
11:57:05  <Alberth> Eddi: yep, and that's only the tip, think of all embedded devices, and we'll get even more, with Internet of Things, just crackers heaven
11:57:50  <Alberth> and we give ample possibilties, by connecting everything to each other
11:58:28  <frosch123> hoin
12:20:15  <andythenorth> Industry Station Names: Literal | Esoteric | OpenTTD Default
12:20:22  <andythenorth> ??
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12:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't you ask that already?
12:32:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or is the question which thesaurus entries you put into a randomized order?
12:36:23  <andythenorth> if I ask enough, an answer will happen
12:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the difference between "literal" and "openttd default"?
12:40:04  <andythenorth> literal = industry name
12:40:26  <andythenorth> OpenTTD default = dunno, haven’t tested, I’ve been using FIRS for years with industry names :P
12:40:40  <andythenorth> one might accuse andythenorth of not really caring about station names
12:40:46  <andythenorth> but other people do, so eh
12:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so drop "default"
12:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make "literal" the default, and find a better name for "esoteric"
12:58:31  <andythenorth> ‘quirky'
12:58:34  <andythenorth> ‘associative'
12:58:37  <andythenorth> ‘blah’ :)
12:58:49  <andythenorth> ‘random’ would be best :)
12:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "random"
12:59:30  <andythenorth> that depends on how you view time
12:59:40  <andythenorth> looking back from the future, there might be
13:04:53  <andythenorth> all it needs is Wolf01 to add the callback
13:06:55  <Wolf01> Yeah
13:07:13  <Wolf01> I'm adding callbacks to delete single cached items on my app right now
13:08:11  <Wolf01> And I found I'm totally stupid as I cached just the hash and a boolean, so I can't know what they are if the item with the actual details is no more on the list
13:09:05  <Wolf01> If this happen it might be a good thing to delete the relative cache anyway
13:09:13  <Wolf01> Maybe automagically too
13:13:47  <andythenorth> april fool’s jokes get less funny over time
13:14:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: Explicit | Metaphorical | OpenTTD default
13:14:25  <frosch123> it's 3 options, i think eddi doesn't know what "explicit" is
13:15:03  <andythenorth> explicit = town name + industry type name
13:15:10  <frosch123> yes
13:15:23  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> april fool’s jokes get less funny over time <- should I apologize?
13:15:27  <andythenorth> maybe :D
13:15:38  <andythenorth> I thought of trolling to extend it, but that’s not fair
13:16:16  <Wolf01> Maybe I could do it :>
13:21:09  <frosch123> hmm, it's not tuesday
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13:25:08  <andythenorth> that’s only a matter of time
13:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what are you talking about? i thought people taking april fools for bare truth is the best part of april fool?
13:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you could, however amend the original announcement a little to clear things up
13:37:23  <Wolf01> Only time will know ^_^
13:38:41  <Wolf01> 1.8 might be the "road warrior" one, and 1.9 the "waterworld" one
13:39:06  <Wolf01> Speaking about waterworld, I have a weird scenario in mind
13:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of waterworld, ic111 asked about inclusion of his river generation patch, and possibly his timetable patch
13:47:31  <Wolf01> ic111 river patch is the one for realistic rivers?
13:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "rainfall river generation"
13:47:46  <Wolf01> Yes that
13:48:56  <Wolf01> I'm fine with that
13:49:16  <Wolf01> But my vote doesn't count :P
13:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i've kinda lost track over whose votes count :p
13:50:42  <Wolf01> I think we should ask V
13:50:52  <Wolf01> His votes count :P
13:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see anything good coming out of that approach :p
13:51:45  <Wolf01> He might just answer "ass"
13:52:16  <frosch123> was there any progress with the river generation?
13:52:28  <frosch123> last thing i remember was that it made landscapes even worse
13:53:04  <Wolf01> Like now they aren't bad enough?
13:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't know, but that sounds like the kind of issue that could be worked out by actually talking to each other
13:53:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, i gave up on that after mhl
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14:24:14  <Wolf01> ...deploying new app version on the phone...
14:36:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: no random station names then? o_O
14:37:10  * andythenorth might try to patch them as a parameter now
14:37:42  <frosch123> random station names would not be industry related
14:37:59  <frosch123> also they would not be random
14:38:10  <frosch123> compile-time randomness possibly
14:38:14  <Wolf01> Fixed + random
14:38:50  <andythenorth> FIRS v3: the many parameters edition
14:39:34  <andythenorth> station name parameter
14:39:49  <andythenorth> enable / disable industry founding date restrictions parameter
14:40:14  <andythenorth> max distance to a supplier / consumer of industry cargos parameter
14:40:55  <andythenorth> ^ last one might be dodgy, could cause _all_ industries to cluster into one quadrant of map
14:41:22  <Wolf01> I would prefer min distance
14:41:39  <andythenorth> as a praameter?
14:41:52  <Wolf01> So you won't get a forest near to a lumber mill, like 10 squares
14:42:07  <FLHerne> Can we have a primary:secondary ratio parameter? :P
14:42:19  <andythenorth> it’s default 16 in recent versions Wolf01
14:42:22  <andythenorth> fixed in last few weeks
14:42:28  <andythenorth> or maybe 20
14:42:30  <andythenorth> can’t remember
14:42:32  <Wolf01> Good then
14:42:40  <andythenorth> was annoying
14:42:45  <Wolf01> A lot
14:43:49  <andythenorth> FLHerne: in principle yes, in practice, I’m not coding that
14:43:56  <andythenorth> that is a lot of conditionals :P
14:44:02  * FLHerne not surprised
14:44:05  <andythenorth> although it would probably just be a tree eh
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15:28:13  <Wolf01> I was thinking to become a professional contributor, but actually I don't know enough, also I'm really slow if I'm not in the mood
15:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wouldn't it just be a simple multiplication of the construction probability property?
15:39:27  <andythenorth> it would have to count the industries on the map
15:39:30  <andythenorth> by type
15:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> why would it need to be that exact?
15:43:31  <andythenorth> that’s what he asked for o_O
15:43:43  <andythenorth> oh no, maybe not
15:43:56  <andythenorth> ok I defer to you on this one
15:44:05  <andythenorth> gah thank fuck, my test passes
15:44:15  * andythenorth has been fixing same test for 30 mins
15:44:48  <andythenorth> it was a legit failure, took ages to se
15:44:49  <andythenorth> see *
15:46:19  <andythenorth> if this was £295 cheaper, I would buy it, looks like HEQS
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16:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you have a reasonable expectation of prices for H0 models :p
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16:47:07  <andythenorth> I buy US stuff
16:47:17  <andythenorth> it mostly loses value when imported to UK
16:47:28  <andythenorth> EU stuff…no
16:48:24  <Alberth> ha, transporting vehicles with hovercraft :p
16:53:44  <andythenorth> fair
17:06:44  <Wolf01> Wtf is starcraft brood war downloading, the whole internet? Full bandwitdh for 20 minutes so far
17:07:19  <Alberth> the starcraft operating system?
17:07:49  <Wolf01> Worse than the microsoft store, I can't even open a webpage
17:10:07  <frosch123> it doesn't work with stock wine though
17:10:14  <frosch123> apparently you need overwatch-wine
17:10:57  <frosch123> it's 2.8 gb
17:11:13  <Wolf01> I played on wine, is the problem since last patch?
17:12:04  <frosch123> yes
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17:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i still haven't found a nice way, if i have a src.rpm, to simply inject a patch on top of it, and build it the same way that the original rpm was built
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17:36:49  <quiznilo> :ohdear:
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17:37:19  <quiznilo> I have ships bringing Farming Supplies to a station, station says it accepts Farming Supplies, however, they're piling up on the docks
17:37:26  <quiznilo> a port
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17:39:45  <quiznilo> now forest is using Farm Supplies... sort of
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17:41:58  <quiznilo>
17:42:02  <quiznilo> what's it doing?
17:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> did you tell the ship to "transfer"?
17:42:34  <quiznilo> nope, shared orders are displayed
17:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause> does the same station provide and accept supplies?
17:44:34  <quiznilo> yes, indeed it does
17:45:04  <quiznilo> so... I should make a new port, out of range of this firs Port?
17:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> no, make "unload and leave empty" orders
17:46:30  <quiznilo> I have some patchset, I don't have that option
17:46:45  <quiznilo> I have 'unload by cargo type'
17:47:04  <quiznilo> 'unload all wood'
17:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the "leave empty" bit is the important one
17:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the "unload" bit is only to flush the currently undeliverable cargo out
17:48:34  <quiznilo> 'noloading' gave me 'and leave empty'
17:48:37  <quiznilo> so... testing
17:49:12  <quiznilo> oh hell, I see now... the port itself is generating farm supplies... primary industry
17:49:58  <quiznilo> nope, (unload by cargo type and leave empty) is still leaving farm supplies on this dock
17:50:31  <quiznilo> trying just (unload all and leave empty) now
17:50:52  <quiznilo> still leaving farm supplies on the dock
17:51:10  <glx> probably those originating from this station
17:51:22  <quiznilo> wish I could just tell forest to use farm supplies that Port is outputting
17:51:47  <glx> your ships picked them earlier and deliverd them to this station
17:51:52  <quiznilo> it's a FIRS port, it is indeed self-generating farm supplies as a primary industry, I didn't even notice it
17:52:08  <quiznilo> yeah
17:52:26  <glx> as they were probably not accepted by the other port
17:52:47  <quiznilo> they did, I just give ship orders to go to dock, which accepts farm supplies, and it started the primary production, I didn't even notice the port there
17:53:38  <glx> always try to set "leave empty" when you don't expect to load something after delivery
17:53:58  <quiznilo> the easiest solution it seems to me is just put up a second dock for farm supplies, create a ship to move Port-generated FS from one dock to the other
17:54:18  <quiznilo> the second dock would be out of range of the port but in range of the forest
17:54:30  <quiznilo> good tip, I'll remember that
17:54:38  <glx> stations "supplies" cargo only if there is a demand
17:55:26  <quiznilo> yeah, I've 'dirtied' many stations by sending some train to the wrong station at an industry and had to delete the station and change a bunch of train orders
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18:04:17  <quiznilo> I will be using waypoints more in my layouts also, I think that they're better than creating a bunch of different stations at an industry
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18:11:37  <Alberth> newer openttds stop accepting "wrong" cargo after some long time
18:11:55  <quiznilo> wow, that's good to know
18:19:55  <supermop> yo andythenorth
18:20:14  <supermop> when does arc furnace become available?
18:25:40  <andythenorth> dunno
18:26:02  <andythenorth> 1832
18:26:24  <supermop> :|
18:34:39  <supermop> found this when looking for photos:
18:34:43  <supermop>
18:35:12  <supermop> no Idea what i'd use that for but I want one
18:39:04  <quiznilo> can you buy a mill like that, and then tape on an arduino thing, or RPi and have insta-CNC?
18:39:28  <quiznilo> well, add motors too of course
18:39:50  <supermop> quiznilo: probably not, as you'd need a ton of motors, actuators, etc
18:40:07  <quiznilo> mill has to be CNC
18:40:26  <quiznilo> actually, I'd take a non-CNC mill
18:40:37  <supermop>
18:41:14  <supermop> probably won't find one much cheaper than that, but building a cnc milling machine would be fun
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18:59:58  <quiznilo> would love to get with a bunch of hobbyists, rent a shop somewhere, buy all these toys
19:00:17  <quiznilo> 3d printer, milling machine, lathe, electronics gear, everything
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19:04:41  <andythenorth> there are people doing that
19:04:43  <andythenorth> maker labs
19:05:11  <andythenorth>
19:05:34  <quiznilo> there aren't any close to where I live, cept the one in South Philly
19:05:41  <quiznilo> hmm... maybe I should start one here
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19:47:04  <andythenorth> supermop:
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20:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly does "CNC" stand for?
20:09:41  <peter1138> computer numerical control
20:15:38  <frosch123> a "rotary cutter" is operated by hand and looking at analogue measures
20:15:58  <frosch123> a "nc rotary cutter" is operated by hand while looking at digital numeric displays
20:16:09  <frosch123> a "cnc rotary cutter" runs on a program
20:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think this is something for andy
20:24:25  <frosch123> i like the comic strip in the first comment
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21:57:02  <__ln__>
22:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can have loads of fun in pripyat, if you stay away from the most obviously contaminated areas
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22:15:47  <Wolf01> I could be interested in one apartment, if they make a good price
22:17:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if you get tired of buying H0 models on ebay:
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22:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> strangely, the prices don't properly scale 1:87
22:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 200000/87**2
22:21:23  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.4235698243
22:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 200000/87**3
22:21:26  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.303719193383
22:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 200000/87
22:21:38  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2298.85057471
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22:37:49  <Wolf01> lol
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22:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so, is that a good or bad thing? :p
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22:46:43  <__ln__> "Möglicherweise kein Versand nach Finnland"
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23:21:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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