Log for #openttd on 27th April 2017:
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07:28:07  <Alberth> moin
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07:59:35  <peter1138> hi
08:07:16  <crem> hi
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08:55:08  <Wolf01> Moin
08:55:30  <__ln__> i wasn't expecting you for another 27 minutes
08:56:29  <Wolf01> Eh salesman of worwerk from hell decided is a good thing to awake the wolf
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09:06:19  <Alberth> o/
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09:24:46  <Wolf01> o/
09:25:55  <crem> \o
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18:26:08  <andythenorth> o/
18:26:46  <Wolf01> o/
18:29:31  <Arveen> \o/
18:30:00  <frosch123> o/
18:39:00  <LordAro> o|
18:44:34  <supermop_> _o
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21:20:08  <nekomaster> So I have my Canada heightmap done, sorta
21:20:15  <nekomaster> but its at 8192x8192 resolution
21:20:45  <nekomaster> and while at that resolution I have nice shore lines, if I downsize it I loose the shore lines and end up with two tile high cliff's
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21:23:46  <Cubey> You mean if you pick 4096x4096 in game, or if you downscale it in GIMP or whatever?
21:23:49  <Cubey> Or both?
21:24:13  <nekomaster> Yeah, is there some way to downsize in GIMP or some other program and keep the shore lines. I can give you examples of what I mean
21:24:41  <Cubey> I mean, if you think about a heightmap as a 3D surface
21:24:57  <Cubey> Then it makes sense that your coasts become steeper when you shrink the image
21:25:24  <nekomaster> yeah but at 8K I have long coasts which I dont really want either, but at 4K the shores become too steep with no step
21:25:29  <Cubey> Like let's say your map has x, y, and z dimensions, where the brightness of the pixel denotes the z value
21:25:39  <nekomaster> though I could always just turn down the brightness I would like a bit of a shoreline
21:25:43  <Cubey> If you shrink the x and y coordinates by 50%, you also have to shrink the z by 50%
21:26:22  <Cubey> When you generate a game from a heightmap, you have to pick the maximum map height...the default is 16 I think? I'm not sure
21:26:35  <nekomaster> I believe the default is 16
21:26:57  <Cubey> Have you experimented with smoothing the image? For example applying a gaussian blur to the whole thing
21:27:19  <Cubey> If you have weird artifacts on the coasts that you don't like
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21:27:37  <nekomaster> No, but I was using Lanzcos resizing in irfan view
21:28:17  <Cubey> Lanczos might induce ringing artifacts
21:28:41  <nekomaster> ringing?
21:29:02  <Cubey> Sharper filters like lanczos are best for upscaling, because they make a less blurry image
21:29:12  <nekomaster> ahh
21:29:23  <Cubey> But for downscaling that isn't necessarily the case
21:30:13  <Cubey> When you are upscaling, you wish you had more detail in the image than you actually do, so you use a filter that makes more complex decisions to trick the viewer's eye into thinking the upscaled image is still sharp
21:30:23  <Cubey> When you are downscaling you have more detail than you need, and you need to throw away some
21:30:43  <Cubey> But also heightmaps are different from images and they also get mangled by OpenTTD, because it can only depict one type of slope
21:31:00  <nekomaster> btw I can give you a dropbox link to show the map I have, maybe someone with better skills then I do can figure out how to keep some of hte shore line
21:31:06  <nekomaster>
21:31:28  <Cubey> Ok let's take a look at this
21:31:41  <nekomaster> Though if its not possible, then I'll just have the map at 1 tile above sea level
21:33:05  <Cubey> What do you mean by "long" coasts?
21:33:05  <nekomaster> Oh and another problem I've had while trying to resize, is that some rivers end up closing up
21:33:27  <Cubey> Yeah, you are probably going to have to manually clean those up
21:33:34  <Cubey> Because of that slope problem I'm talking about
21:33:44  <nekomaster> yeah
21:34:04  <nekomaster> I wonder if its even worth the trouble to make a shoreline
21:35:48  <Cubey> Hey this looks pretty good
21:36:16  <nekomaster> I tried to add most of the major lakes and rivers and put some in area's where water is sparse
21:36:21  <nekomaster> to keep things interesting
21:37:07  <Cubey> The west coast is really messy (because the heightmap is so noisy around there with all the mountains), so some smoothing might help that
21:37:30  <Cubey> And I think you can fix the coastal flats being one step too high by playing with the levels tool or curves tool a little more
21:38:17  <nekomaster> thing is I already set the levels, the brightness goes up by 5 steps from 0 for each tile
21:38:21  <Cubey> Smoothing and leveling will probably close off some of the rivers, but you can prevent that to some extent by making a layer on top of the image of just the water
21:38:26  <Cubey> And leaving the water alone
21:38:34  <nekomaster> Oh yeah, I totally forgot about htat
21:38:55  <nekomaster> just use the color select tool before I smooth out things and then fill the selection with black for the water
21:39:02  <Cubey> Like once you have the water the way you want it, select all the solid black pixels and paste them into a new layer that you don't change anymore
21:39:04  <Cubey> Yeah exactly
21:39:04  <nekomaster> that way it'll keep all of the water ways open
21:39:21  <Cubey> But some of them may still get closed off when the game generates the map, because of the slopes
21:39:25  <nekomaster> yeah
21:39:35  <Cubey> So you will still have to check it and manually dig them out in the scenario editor
21:39:50  <nekomaster> Thing is though theres so many water ways
21:40:28  <Cubey> Surprisingly they all seem to be OK as it is right now, so keeping the water layer static might just work
21:40:45  <Cubey> I can even see little islands in like the hudson river and st lawrence river that are properly surrounded by water
21:41:15  <nekomaster> yeah, I'm not too too worried about loosing tiny islands
21:42:04  <Cubey> I'm just saying that islands would be a place you'd expect to see the waterways closing up when the map generates
21:42:38  <Cubey> Because the transition from sea-level to ground level might be too steep for the openttd grid
21:42:52  <Cubey> But that seems not to be the case here, so that's a good sign
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21:46:55  <nekomaster> if anything though, I wonder what people prefer, having a bit of a shore line/beach, or just having the lowest ground across the map at 1 tile above the sea
21:47:56  <Cubey> The random map generator and most scenarios I've seen tend to have like, coastal plains at height level 1
21:48:07  <nekomaster> ahh
21:48:15  <nekomaster> maybe I should do that to make things simpler for people
21:48:26  <nekomaster> I did say before I wanted this to be fun, not super realistic
21:48:37  <Cubey> I finally got GIMP open and I can see what you mean about the color steps
21:48:52  <Cubey> Like the darkest shade is 5 steps darker than the second darkest
21:49:18  <nekomaster> yeah
21:49:21  <Cubey> It looks like you only have about 13 or 14 shades in use
21:49:54  <Cubey> So you should generate the map with max height 14 I guess. Or maybe someone knows if that is zero indexed or whatever
21:49:59  <ugu> what projection is that?
21:50:50  <nekomaster> its been stretched
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21:51:02  <Cubey> Smoothing will just blend all these distinct shades together, so maybe that will make things worse... I'm gonna mess around with it and see
21:51:20  <nekomaster> alright
21:51:42  <nekomaster> also I would like to make an even smaller version at 2048x2048 while keeping the water ways
21:52:13  <nekomaster> I'd like to make two scenarios, one at 2048x2048 for most peole, and at 4092x4092 for the crazy people that want to try and make a realistic railroad
21:52:19  <Cubey> Putting the waterways in a separate layer will probably help with that
21:57:09  <Cubey> Wait on a closer look I just realized you specifically defined two brightness layers between the plains and the water
21:57:42  <Cubey> Like your 8192x8192 image has coasts two or three pixels wide around the entire landmass
21:57:47  <nekomaster> yeah
21:58:09  <nekomaster> thats what I was talking about but I might scrap that idea
21:58:32  <Cubey> I thought it was like a mystery why that was happening
21:58:51  <nekomaster> For example, I believe each level is 50 meters
21:59:19  <nekomaster> and Toronto, Ontario, is only 76 meters above sea level
21:59:54  <Cubey> Most of the densely populated places on Earth would be at lvl1 in openttd maps
22:00:22  <nekomaster> ahh
22:00:34  <nekomaster> so it probably would be best if I scrapped the beach/shoreline idea then
22:00:50  <nekomaster> its only really useful when trying to recreate maps from games that have that kind of thing
22:03:11  <Cubey> Well I guess it's a creative choice that's up to you
22:03:31  <Cubey> I was just misunderstanding before, I thought you didn't want it and were looking for a way to get rid of it
22:03:42  <nekomaster> Well I might prefer to go down the route of "its my mod for my own thing"
22:03:48  <nekomaster> but I also want to share it with people
22:03:53  <nekomaster> and I want people to have fun with it
22:04:11  <nekomaster> also having a two step/level coast everywhere might make bridges more expensive when crossing rivers
22:04:15  <Cubey> I did try putting the water in a separate layer, downscaling, and then smoothing the land layer
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22:04:32  <Cubey> And it came out OK, not too many problems with waterways closing up
22:05:13  <Cubey> A lot of your rivers will still have 2 and 3 high banks because they are cutting through higher ground
22:05:33  <Cubey> I think that's totally Ok though. A lot of rivers in north america do have very high and steep banks!
22:06:30  <nekomaster> yeah
22:07:00  <nekomaster> perhaps you could send me what you got, perhaps through a forum PM if you dont have dropbox or one drive
22:07:08  <nekomaster> or too lazy to put it up somewhere else
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22:09:58  <Cubey> Just this
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22:10:27  <Cubey> Hmm I got disconnected, did that link make it through?
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22:12:24  <Cubey> But anyway you are probably going to want to duplicate those steps yourself starting from your base image, because that png will have your discrete brightness levels messed up
22:12:24  <Cubey> Since it's already blurred and scaled
22:12:24  <Cubey> Those should probably be the very last steps, like if you are going to change the coastal height you'd want to do that first, then scale and blur it after
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22:15:27  *** sets mode: +ov Belugas Belugas
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22:16:50  <nekomaster> Ungh, what is with these netsplits
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22:20:00  <nekomaster> hmm
22:20:25  <nekomaster> one thing that sucks is that Montreal doesnt get enough space to have Mount Royal
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23:38:09  <Wolf01> 'night
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