Log for #openttd on 6th May 2017:
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01:40:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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11:02:17  <Wolf01> Moin
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11:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like he had a fun night
11:50:29  <Wolf01> "Fast and express belt length increase" \o/
11:50:37  <Wolf01> I could remove the mod from the list
11:51:14  <Wolf01> Not the same lengths but is really welcome
11:52:31  <Wolf01> supermop_ "Please remove tiles." XD only if freeform tracks and road will be added
11:53:10  <Wolf01> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA the last post
11:54:02  <frosch123> length increase? for underground belt, or what?
11:54:12  <Wolf01> Underground belt
11:55:29  <Wolf01>
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11:58:11  <Wolf01> Blueprint based gameplay would be a killer thing for sandbox, but without construction robots, you should be able to place the stuff directly
11:58:14  <Wolf01> o/
11:58:38  <andythenorth> o/
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12:00:19  <andythenorth> have I offended frosch? :o
12:01:05  <Wolf01> Mmmh, no clue
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12:27:44  <andythenorth> does grfcodec build with libpng 1.6.x?
12:38:28  <debdog>
12:38:42  <Wolf01> I'm considering to change nick...
12:39:23  <Wolf01>
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12:50:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- apparently it does
12:51:36  <andythenorth> OS X isn’t supported, right?
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12:52:32  <Alberth> o/
12:53:35  <Alberth> andy: what would happen if you ignore new BBs request to feed the cities?
12:57:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: ? o_O
12:58:00  <andythenorth> do you mean ‘is there a penalty’?
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13:12:37  <Alberth> that's the question indeed
13:12:54  <Alberth> maybe it's a wrong idea :)
13:13:27  <andythenorth> I hadn’t anticipated any penalty
13:13:34  <andythenorth> you either win, and level up, or you go again
13:13:43  <andythenorth> I was thinking it would be quarterly or annual or so
13:13:49  <Alberth> sounds fair enough
13:14:07  <andythenorth> particularly in desert or snow, it implies also delivering cargos, to grow the town
13:14:15  <andythenorth> town / towns /s
13:14:20  <andythenorth> any towns you like
13:14:39  <Alberth> it would just measure deliveries, right, rather than growth?
13:14:42  <andythenorth> yes
13:14:50  <andythenorth> transport game ;)
13:14:53  <andythenorth> not sim city
13:15:00  <andythenorth> the difficulty will vary wildly depending on map and town settings
13:15:12  <Alberth> so, not transporting cargoes to town is a valid option :)
13:15:22  <andythenorth> any pax / mail
13:15:30  <andythenorth> hotels, oil rigs, industries in SPI
13:15:32  <Alberth> much simpler :p
13:15:45  <Alberth> plenty of pax wanting to go anywhere :)
13:15:56  <andythenorth> it’s like NCG for pax + BB for freight
13:16:06  <andythenorth> except NCG is win/lose, no ‘level up'
13:16:32  <Alberth> I was wondering, higher level is provide more, for longer time
13:17:03  <andythenorth> Urban Bee
13:17:08  <andythenorth> Passenger Bee
13:17:21  <Alberth> which isn't terribly complicated if you build robust networks
13:17:39  <andythenorth> no
13:17:53  <andythenorth> it’s just something to measure progress
13:18:20  <andythenorth> the town goals in BB seem weirdly specific, compared to freight
13:18:38  <andythenorth> x tonnes of coal by 1950 I can understand
13:18:42  <Alberth> you need more industries :p
13:18:54  <andythenorth> but x passengers between two places seems…less compelling :)
13:19:01  <andythenorth> maybe a zero-towns map :P
13:19:09  <Alberth> it never specifies "from" afaik
13:19:18  <andythenorth> no
13:19:40  <andythenorth> my mistake :)
13:19:56  <Alberth> your imagination is filling too many blanks :)
13:20:36  <Alberth> well, could be another goal, I guess, that would be simplest
13:20:49  <Alberth> one that never expires
13:20:56  <andythenorth> deliver 100,000 passengers, anywhere?
13:21:27  <Alberth> euhm, didn't you propose "to" levels?
13:21:38  <Alberth> ah, deliver
13:21:38  <andythenorth> well yes
13:21:46  <Alberth> yes, I'd say
13:22:15  <Alberth> if you want to do that all in one spot, go ahead
13:22:23  <Alberth> using more spots is simpler :p
13:23:03  <Alberth> hmm, you could 'cheat' by transporting small distances
13:23:57  <Alberth> freight deliveries to a city would work, much more complicated to cheat
13:24:19  <Alberth> pax is trivial, just build sufficient bus stations
13:24:51  <Alberth> or tram stations, for that matter
13:26:09  <Alberth> could take the absolute difference between supply and delivery in the same city :p
13:26:35  <Alberth> so each city must be either supplier or provider
13:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't work well with symmetric cargodist
13:27:32  <Alberth> likely it won't work well with any cargo-dist :)
13:27:50  <Alberth> pax is inherently bi-directional
13:28:10  <Alberth> you need to explicitly stop that
13:29:29  <andythenorth> my original goal was distributing food
13:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
13:29:35  <andythenorth> I’m playing arctic currently
13:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ... not the food bit
13:30:00  <Alberth> :)
13:30:03  <andythenorth> doing a few point-to-point routes for food is fine, but unsatisfying
13:30:16  <andythenorth> I’d rather have some target to try and use all the food on the map
13:30:23  <andythenorth> can we measure supply?
13:30:39  <Alberth> andy needs a tap on the shoulder for doing good job :)
13:30:57  <andythenorth> can be nerfed by demolishing all the food supply industries :P
13:31:01  <andythenorth> instant win
13:31:08  <Alberth> sure you can measure supply, just not correlated with deliveries
13:31:35  <andythenorth> in 1950, 9000 tons of food were produced, and 3000 tons were delivered?
13:32:00  <Alberth> better than the other way around :p
13:32:40  <Alberth> make station for "temporary" storage of food :p
13:33:00  <Alberth> then deliver it all in one year
13:33:13  <andythenorth> all systems can be gamed :)
13:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe some food was lost from low ratings?
13:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause> or you started producing a lot of food towards the end of the year, and it was not delivered yet?
13:33:50  <Alberth> ratings is just a matter of visiting the station often enough?
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13:34:24  <Alberth> and yes, supply is counted only at final delivery
13:34:56  <Alberth> but that goes both ways, ie early in the year you get food that started its journey at the end of the previous year
13:35:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: when I run make for the grfcodec project, I get “make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng16/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'.  Stop.”
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13:35:36  <andythenorth> dunno if that’s just a path issue
13:35:48  <andythenorth> I copied a grfcodec binary from my old mac, and it works
13:35:50  <Alberth> you have not libpng16?
13:35:53  <andythenorth> I do
13:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a ./configure issue
13:36:23  <andythenorth> 1.6.29
13:36:24  <Alberth> at that path? probably not
13:36:30  <andythenorth> there isn’t a ./configure
13:36:39  <andythenorth> I used to be able to build grfcodec on my old mac, so eh
13:36:52  <Alberth> where does /opt/local come from then?
13:37:07  <andythenorth> doesn’t exist
13:37:12  <Alberth> manual configu-thingy-ing?
13:37:13  <andythenorth> might have been macports put it there
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13:39:17  * andythenorth doesn’t have macports any longer
13:40:47  <Alberth> what does   libpng-config --cflags    say
13:41:39  <Alberth> maybe your installed library doesn't know the header files are gone
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13:41:54  <andythenorth> -I/usr/local/Cellar/libpng/1.6.29/include/libpng16
13:42:30  <Alberth> that looks like a different path :)
13:43:04  * andythenorth reading the Makfile
13:43:08  <andythenorth> Makefil *
13:43:13  <andythenorth> err, this is going badly :P
13:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> not enough "e"s? :p
13:45:34  <andythenorth> maybe my key is sticky
13:46:01  <andythenorth> this keyboard is so loud, I’ve started typing softly :P
13:49:12  <Alberth> well, food delivery would be fine, as it's not bi-directional in nature
13:50:00  <andythenorth> ok so /opt/local assumes macports is installed
13:50:08  <andythenorth> I can probably patch that to the brew location
13:50:13  * andythenorth will try in a bit
13:50:32  <andythenorth> Alberth: ‘Blanket Goals'
13:50:37  <andythenorth> ‘Whole Map Goals’? :P
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13:53:08  <quiznilo> andythenorth: I linked a youtube video in here the other day, how to properly transfer coal from trains to ship
13:53:09  <Alberth> BB already does specific goals
13:53:14  <quiznilo>
13:53:23  <quiznilo> thought you might be interested
13:54:20  <Alberth> and "delivery to cities" does sound map-wide :)
13:54:58  <Alberth> tbh I don't know if it should be BB-ish
13:55:16  <Alberth> at some point food delivery will be dominating anything else
13:55:29  <Alberth> it's more a global SV for food :)
13:57:16  <Alberth> doing something wrt to balancing between cities would be nice
13:57:30  <Alberth> or you deliver everything just to a few cities :p
13:57:33  <quiznilo> interesting... you don't get office buildings or other cool buildings in towns with TTRS until 1930
13:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a bug that all towns consisted only of banks
13:58:58  <Alberth> might still exist :)
13:59:21  <quiznilo> haha
13:59:44  <Alberth> theaters bug still exist, doesn't it?
14:00:04  <quiznilo> havn't seen that in a bit
14:00:10  <quiznilo> theaters errywhere
14:00:24  <andythenorth> theatres bug still exists
14:00:51  <Alberth> OpenTTD inhabitants are dedicated theatre visitors :)
14:01:01  <andythenorth>
14:01:10  <andythenorth>
14:01:54  <andythenorth> @calc 6659 / 32
14:01:54  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 208.09375
14:02:02  <andythenorth> one theatre per 200 people
14:02:10  <Alberth> sounds fair
14:02:22  <andythenorth> ‘global SV’ might be interesting
14:02:25  <andythenorth> dunno :)
14:02:28  * andythenorth biab
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14:40:05  <Wolf01> Increased roboport construction range to 55 (110x110 area) to make roboports able to build each other without interconnecting their logistic areas<- wtf?
14:50:41  <Alberth> progress in AI?  :)
15:06:25  <supermop> maybe an opengfx+ houses could help
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15:11:16  <LordAro> Wolf01: so that you may automatically connect "build networks" without also connecting logistic networks
15:11:25  <LordAro> e.g. for walls or something
15:15:32  <Wolf01> Nope... it only works with the first iteration of the network, the second iteration doesn't have access to storage and won't build
15:16:29  <Wolf01> I was thinking that too, to be able to build a crawling network without sharing the storage
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15:18:18  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
15:22:16  <Wolf01> I welcome the area increment, so when I build my template at least now construction bots are able to harvest all the trees and rocks in the spot which before blocked the placement of roboports, but I really don't get the meaning of not interconnecting a logistic area, no access to storage mean no repair/restock ammo and no self replicating templates
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15:54:41  <LordAro> frosch123: wiki updated :)
15:54:55  <frosch123> \o/
15:55:37  <LordAro> hmm
15:55:38  <andythenorth> could we nerf passenger generation from towns, depending on number of destinations served (assuming cdist)?
15:55:41  <LordAro> those are quite old
15:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any attempts at that turned out terrible
15:56:29  <andythenorth> unsurprising
15:56:58  <andythenorth> was it tried as log(N)?
15:57:40  <Wolf01> LordAro, which version it was before? :D
15:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically there are two problems: 1) it's difficult to determine how many destinations there actually are, and which of them are reached. and b) if you make generation too low, you can't ever start a new game
15:58:23  <LordAro> Wolf01: as in, added stuff for the 1.7.1 release :p
15:58:32  <LordAro> you need TB to update mediawiki...
15:58:44  <Wolf01> Oh, I thought you updated the wiki itself
15:59:09  <LordAro> (and i can't say i blame him for not touching it, the mediawiki instance i manage is currently in "read only" mode as the last update broke authentication)
15:59:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, if you try to scale the production by reducing the station rating, you trigger all the weird effects of low ratings, like cargo disappearing and industries closing
15:59:18  <Wolf01> Btw, I'm fine with this one, no stupid javascript everywhere
15:59:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the station doesn’t know how many nodes are in the graph?
16:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the unserviced areas are not in the graph
16:00:32  <LordAro> Wolf01: i don't believe newer versions have gotten rid of the older themes
16:00:42  <andythenorth> hmm
16:00:50  <andythenorth> probably best left alone then
16:01:11  <andythenorth> 25%, 50%, 100%
16:01:15  <andythenorth> I was thinking
16:01:16  <Wolf01> I should update mine too, but I shut down the server about 2 months ago
16:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and looking up for each house whether it's in the coverage area of a station is too cpu heavy
16:01:22  <andythenorth> fair
16:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so in a naive approach you have like a complexity of O(#tiles_in_map*station_spread^2*#networks)
16:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause> *#cargos
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17:14:25  <andythenorth> hmm
17:14:35  <andythenorth> maybe should add this to FIRS Arctic Basic
17:17:12  <Alberth> :)
17:18:01  <Alberth> unfortunately not a good example for animal rights :)
17:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> how is "wryly" a valid word?
17:41:24  <andythenorth> English
17:41:33  <andythenorth> to do something in a wry fashion
17:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't think that will become "mainstream"...
17:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> a) you can't possibly kill enough cattle to fuel all cars in this world, and b) it's not vegan...
17:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same problem as with "bio"fuel, the theory is fine as long as you're just using waste products of other processing, but when the demand rises, you start allocating growing areas just to produce this type of fuel
18:03:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? the efficiency of sun->corn->methan->electricity is 0.2%, solar cells are barely 20%
18:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, besides that... the point is that areas are taken from producing food into producing fuel. and then rainforest areas are taken to produce the food
18:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and as soon as you're starting to cut down rainforest areas, you're no longer "sustainable"
18:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> which means you didn't achieve anything
18:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, getting the electricity from the solar cell into your car isn't exactly 100% either
18:13:46  * andythenorth considers “waste animal fats” cargo
18:14:25  <frosch123> it's just biomass
18:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that many steps away from soylent green
18:15:19  <frosch123> try vegan meat
18:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
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22:16:41  <supermop> can i have a truck refit to less capacity for certain cargo types?
22:17:10  <supermop> like 40 crates of goods, but if you refit to bulk, it only holds 20T?
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22:24:43  <frosch123> yes
22:25:26  <frosch123> want to know how, or just planning?
22:25:39  <supermop> yes, would be nice
22:26:44  <frosch123> in addition to "capacity" in the "properties" section you can also put a "capacity" into the "graphics" section and link it to a switch
22:27:30  <frosch123> cargo_classes_in_consist then gives you the cargo classed
22:27:53  <frosch123> actually "cargo_classes" is better
22:28:14  <frosch123> you can also check specific cargos via "cargo_type_in_veh"
22:28:38  <frosch123> however, if you add "capacity" to "graphics", do not remove "capacity" from "properties"
22:28:47  <supermop> hmm
22:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> some people have run into traps with this where the default cargo for purchase menu screwed up their calculations
22:34:47  <supermop> huh
22:35:19  <supermop> also, is it easy to have a param to say, double or halve all capacities?
22:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> might be a bit tedious
22:35:53  <supermop> vanilla style capacities for trucks are tiny if playing with any other sets
22:36:21  <frosch123> it's a matter of adding "* param_capacity" to all "capacity" definitions in your source
22:36:43  <supermop> that does sound a bit tedious
22:36:58  <frosch123> it entirely depends on your search+replace skills :)
22:37:13  <supermop> but so is all the cargo graphic stuff im doing now
22:37:17  <frosch123> no idea how many vehicles you have
22:37:49  <supermop> not many
22:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i simply have one callback for each possible base capacity
22:38:37  <supermop> 4 generations, bus, mail truck, goods truck, open truck, hopper, flatbed, 2 generations of container carrier
22:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so if i have 100 vehicle, and each one has a base capacity of 20, 30 or 50, then i put capacity_20_switch, capacity_30_switch or capacity_50_switch
22:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> then the switches handle the doubling, etc.
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22:50:33  <supermop> huh what lable is lumber in firs?
22:50:37  <supermop> wood products?
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22:51:47  <frosch123>
22:52:07  <frosch123> Timber 	lumber 	WDPR
22:52:19  <supermop> ooh timber
22:52:25  <supermop> how british
22:53:33  <supermop> im not drawing vehicle bodies yet, so those are goin to just get shipped in crates
22:55:44  <supermop> hmm zinc
22:56:10  <supermop> i hope that gets shipping in big rolls that just happen to look like steel coils
22:56:25  <supermop> otherwise crates again
23:03:33  <supermop> where i have: loaded:  [spriteset_mkii_t_flat_empty, spriteset_mkii_t_flat_full_lumber];
23:03:51  <supermop> can i but a middle one in there for halfway full?
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23:06:56  <Wolf01> I have 2 choices now: try to get me banned from astroneer forums OR ignore and just continue to read only mode as I always do
23:08:00  <supermop> hmm forgot to add sand graphics for open truck
23:08:16  <supermop> maybe open truck should carry sand in crates
23:08:28  <supermop> otherwise too much trouble to shovel it out
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23:10:57  <supermop> frosch123 will that bulk class switch also work to make the default graphic to some pile if class is bulk, instead of crates?
23:16:04  <frosch123> sure
23:16:25  <supermop> i assume andy will add more and more types of ore
23:17:08  <frosch123> if you do 8bpp graphics you can also add recoloring sprites to save on drawing actual sprites
23:17:29  <supermop> idk how to do that
23:18:10  <supermop> also i already drew a pile for iron ore, scrap, coal, and gravel
23:18:28  <supermop> but i could recolor the ore to other ores i guess
23:18:53  <frosch123> you can do that with your drawing program
23:19:00  <frosch123> but you can also tell ottd to do it
23:19:12  <frosch123> which may make it easier for multiple loading stages
23:20:13  <supermop> i can imagine
23:20:29  <supermop> i feel like i am forgetting a truck type
23:21:20  <supermop> oh, livestock and grain hopper
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