Log for #openttd on 10th June 2017:
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07:05:11  <andythenorth> o/
07:20:57  <Alberth> o/
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09:06:55  <Wolf01> o/
09:07:06  <Arveen2> moin wolf
09:13:44  <Wolf01> Good job V453000 for the FFF#194, steam browser can't handle it, I had to read it on firefox XD
09:16:13  <Arveen2> hmm
09:16:24  <Arveen2> i can open it within steam
09:16:41  <Wolf01> Yeah, but I can't scroll the page
09:16:49  <Wolf01> Too resource heavy
09:17:47  <Arveen2> nice there is a screenshot of some source code
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09:29:23  <andythenorth> is it?
09:29:38  <Wolf01> Nope
09:34:04  <andythenorth> why not?
09:35:26  <Wolf01> Kickbanned cousin because he wanted me to make his website for yesterday
09:37:18  <Wolf01> "You can't come here after 1.5 years of teasing me to make the website and want it done in a week, I'll start it in september, take or leave"
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10:00:57  <Alberth> o/
10:02:14  <Alberth> you should have charged money for each month earlier :)
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13:41:24  <andythenorth> well
13:41:56  <frosch123> moo
13:43:51  <andythenorth> such
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13:46:39  <frosch123> will "such" be the grfid of fish4?
13:47:25  <andythenorth> could be
13:47:29  <andythenorth> or FIRS 3
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13:50:02  <frosch123> or bandit 3: such useful coal haulers
13:57:41  <andythenorth> fair
13:57:58  <andythenorth> I considered making all HAUL vehicles non-articulated
13:58:02  <andythenorth> so they can use drive-in stops
13:58:06  <andythenorth> but….why? :P
13:58:37  <Wolf01> I have some spare time on my spare time, does somebody want to help me to fix some more things on RATT?
13:58:44  <frosch123> what purpose do drive-in stops have?
13:59:19  <andythenorth> aren’t they there to deceive some people into thinking they have higher throughput?
13:59:32  <andythenorth> I used to use them because they’re “more efficient"
14:00:11  <frosch123> how did you get the idea?
14:00:27  <frosch123> i mean i never measured it, but it sounds unlikely
14:03:45  <Wolf01> frosch123, looking at
14:08:44  <frosch123> the behaviour of  ExistingRoadSubTypesForRoadType does not match it's description
14:09:00  <Wolf01> Ok, lets work on it
14:11:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: it has 3 bays, eh?  Not 2 :P
14:11:26  <frosch123> 3 bays?
14:11:34  <andythenorth> stops
14:11:45  <andythenorth> there are some problems with this idea, but people often count wrong
14:11:46  <frosch123> drive-in has 2 bays, and a bottleneck for driving in and out
14:12:18  <frosch123> drive-through have two independent directions for enter/exit, no bottleneck, and as many bays as the vehicles are short
14:12:53  <Wolf01> "Return a filtered list of RoadSubTypes for the given RoadType, based on company and if to check for their introduction date"
14:13:29  <frosch123> Wolf01: if you pass a valid company, "any_date" is not even used
14:14:03  <Wolf01> There it misses a check
14:15:15  <Wolf01> Could I do this? return AddDateIntroducedRoadTypes(rt, company->avail_roadtypes[rt], any_date ? MAX_DAY : _date);
14:16:03  <frosch123> i would rather think that "any_date = true" mans to ignore "c"
14:16:07  <frosch123> *means
14:16:44  <frosch123> if something is available to some company at some point it time, it will be available to everyone at some time
14:18:13  <frosch123> CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure has the same problem
14:19:00  <Wolf01> Do roadtypes cease to be available to company when all vehicles for it expire?
14:19:15  <frosch123> it has like 4 input parameters (including _game_mode and disable_unsuitable_building"), but the function itself looks implausible to use them correclty in all cases
14:20:44  <frosch123> company_avail is set to zero
14:20:49  <frosch123> but, i have no idea
14:20:54  <frosch123> i would have to look it up myself
14:21:37  <Wolf01> I'll make a document with all the cases I can remember and think about
14:23:06  <frosch123> GetCompanyRailtypes seems to check both company_avail and intro_date
14:23:20  <frosch123> so, it uses company_avail to detect preview, but does not considere expiring vehicles
14:23:29  <frosch123> so railtypes remain available
14:23:40  <frosch123> possibly it's broken for roadtypes
14:29:50  <Wolf01>
14:30:27  <frosch123> you added a password :p
14:30:31  <Wolf01> Meh
14:30:46  <Wolf01> Retry
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14:31:16  <Wolf01> Stupid browser filling password fields
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14:31:31  <Wolf01> I didn't even check the "mark as private"
14:31:43  <frosch123> are those the rules from railtypes, or did you invent them?
14:32:28  <Wolf01> As railtypes can't do half of those things I invented them
14:32:35  <frosch123> gamescripts dintinguish deity-mode and company-mode
14:32:43  <frosch123> deity-mode should be equal to scenario editor
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14:33:37  <Wolf01> Ok, so deity-mode is company=null, any_date=true, while company mode is the opposite
14:33:50  <frosch123> Wolf01: i think with making roadtype unavailable when you sell the last one of them, you make a lot of things more complicated, and inconssitent to trains
14:34:18  <frosch123> i always went for "make it work exactly like railtypes"
14:34:50  <frosch123> possbily with the deity/scenedit extension
14:35:51  <Wolf01> Yes, that's what I want to achieve, currently I don't think RATT make available a subtype without vehicles
14:36:51  <Wolf01> Deity is completely broken on base, and less broken with this patch
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14:37:54  <peter1138> hi
14:37:58  <Wolf01> o/
14:38:56  <Wolf01> Currently RATT is "can you build ROAD? Ok, you can build every subtype, same for TRAM"
14:40:04  <supermop_home> hmm i can't build tram right now
14:41:10  <Wolf01> Really?
14:41:32  <supermop_home> I only have one tram in my grf
14:41:43  <supermop_home> tramtype: ELRL
14:42:24  <supermop_home> tramtype translation table is { RAIL, ELRL }
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14:47:30  <Wolf01> Could I remove the "any_date" param and just check if the company is valid? Or there is an explicit case which needs to filter only subtypes available at the current date for deity?
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15:05:26  <Wolf01> o/
15:05:37  <__ln___> btw, thank you united kingdom for your gift to 100-year-old finland. i watched it live and it was cool.
15:05:47  <Wolf01> I tried with removing the any_date, as I always set it accordingly with the company, so it didn't make any difference
15:20:52  <Wolf01> And I renamed it to CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure and moved to road.cpp as the only relation to vehicles is an interal loop
15:22:49  <supermop_home> the tram still thinks it is a bus
15:23:21  <frosch123> you need to set the tram flag in the misc_flags
15:23:35  <frosch123> it's the only thing that distinguishes tram from roadvehicles
15:24:34  <supermop_home> hmm
15:24:53  <supermop_home> the tramtype doesn't do that?
15:25:13  <Wolf01> Nope, and I can't think why XD
15:25:50  <frosch123> no, possibly nml could be extended to check that stuff, but it's likely not easy
15:26:39  <Wolf01> Also I'm an idiot, I forgot to commit the staged changes
15:26:41  <supermop_home> also my articulated buses have smoke coking from both parts... should look in to fixing that
15:35:30  <Wolf01> Ok, pushed changes, the usage of those 2 functions should be more clear now, they still need fixes
15:40:06  <Wolf01> ???
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15:54:11  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I found a nice problem: I can't add a station to the vehicle schedule, but why? The first thought is that is not reachable by the pathfinder, but no error popup tell me it
15:55:29  <Wolf01> The second problem is that it was a freight station
15:55:52  <andythenorth> NML could grow ‘FEAT_TRAMS’, but as a method of eliminating a single flag, it seems heavy-handed
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16:00:46  <Wolf01> supermop_home, pylons on the background for asphalt paved road with overhead wire are drawn over the vehicles
16:01:38  <Wolf01> I don't know if it was fixed, but I think I have the latest unspooled grf
16:03:40  <Wolf01>
16:26:32  <__ln___> i find this a bit more interesting:
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16:28:38  <__ln___> (photo taken by me)
16:28:46  <Wolf01> Airshow?
16:29:27  <__ln___> indeed
16:37:35  <V453000> andythenorth: Use python they said. What could possibly go wrong I said.
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16:46:47  <Alberth> ha, very nice V :)
16:47:38  <Alberth> automagic generation always wins :p
16:48:57  <andythenorth> V453000: now generate the python that generates the lua ;)
16:51:38  <Wolf01> Automatic factorio is automatic
16:53:46  <andythenorth> what about automatic FIRS?
16:53:55  <andythenorth> Alberth: what to do about these map colours eh? :)
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17:01:37  <frosch123> V453000: the "generate .bat with python" definitely made me think of andy
17:02:12  <frosch123> anyway, i expect a factorio->grf converter next
17:04:53  <Alberth> the green thingie?  not use it?  :p
17:05:47  <Alberth> can't have 32bpp industry-map colours due to compatibility, probably
17:06:03  <Alberth> less industries works too
17:06:34  <Alberth> same-ish colours between non-conflicting chains perhaps?
17:06:37  <frosch123> hmm, there are formulas to compute the "visual distance" between colors
17:07:06  <frosch123> maybe we should write a python script to find the colors which stays ways from all the map colours and from themself each other
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17:08:17  <Alberth> you may not have enough colours then
17:08:48  <Alberth> ideally you'd take the industry-chain into account, probably
17:09:30  <frosch123> chains cross a lot
17:10:04  <Alberth> declare it as bad chain :p
17:10:24  <frosch123> how about coloring primary, secondary, tertiary, harbour?
17:10:25  <Alberth> NML error: Cannot compute industry map colour
17:10:36  <frosch123> so you can start your game with the greenish industries
17:11:01  <Alberth> finding a specific source or destination becomes tricky?
17:11:03  * andythenorth wondered about contrast checking in nml
17:11:12  <andythenorth> I’ve already got the palette computed as RGB
17:11:21  <frosch123> there is no point in doing it in nml
17:11:38  <frosch123> you only need to do it once, and the put a table onto the wiki: use these colors in this order
17:11:41  <Alberth> true, but fun :)
17:12:01  <andythenorth> I could do it in the FIRS compile
17:12:28  <andythenorth> is there a newgrf var for ‘current map colour’ :P
17:12:51  <frosch123> grf parameter :)
17:13:18  <frosch123> would also fit a color blind mode
17:13:46  <frosch123> i believe there were also formulas for color distance with typical color vision defects
17:13:50  <andythenorth> yes
17:13:56  <Alberth> contrast reduces to conversion to gray-scale, wouldn't it?
17:13:58  <andythenorth> we could do a high contrast OpenTTD :P
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17:31:15  <andythenorth> hmm where are the map colours in src?
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17:32:32  <frosch123> src/table/heightmap_colours.h
17:32:49  * andythenorth would not have found that by guessing :)
17:32:58  <frosch123> they are no rgb codes
17:33:13  <frosch123> it's tables of 4 colours for dithering
17:33:32  <andythenorth> which 4?
17:36:10  * andythenorth looks
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17:37:32  <frosch123> i looked for a color difference video on yt
17:37:44  <frosch123> i came to one that is a machine-read wiki page
17:38:27  <andythenorth> those are weird
17:38:34  <andythenorth> like machine-read news voiceovers
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27878 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-06-10 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> vietnamese: 7 changes by nglekhoi
17:48:16  <andythenorth> maybe I should just sample the map colours, and write a guard :)
17:48:48  <frosch123> ah, there is a "colormath" python module
17:49:05  <frosch123> so, i do not need to understand the formulas
17:50:27  * andythenorth looks
17:50:50  <frosch123> let's try to find the theoretically best colors :)
17:51:51  <andythenorth> could OpenTTD just assign the colours? :P
17:52:17  <frosch123> if we find a good result, we could add a nml built-in function
17:52:23  <andythenorth> have to account for towns also :)
17:52:27  <frosch123> good_colour(1)..good_colour(200)
17:52:50  <andythenorth> oh water also :P
17:53:07  <frosch123> i'll only use land
17:53:23  <frosch123> you can figure out water yourself for water industries
17:53:52  * andythenorth considers counting how many unique colours in FIRS
17:54:12  <andythenorth> there is a lot of reuse (sort by colour)
17:55:54  <andythenorth> 44 colours by counting on my fingers :P
17:56:12  <andythenorth> for 80 industries
17:57:58  <supermop_home> Wolf01 the pylon issue is known
17:58:21  <supermop_home> the problem is, I have the 'top' of the pylon on the front layer
17:59:26  <supermop_home> because on a junction or corner, a pylon on the east or west corner is conceivably either front or back depending on route RV takes through the tile
18:00:01  <supermop_home> I had hoped that the top half of the pylon would be high enough to not show up on top of RVS passing 'in front' of the pylon
18:00:01  <frosch123> wtf... apparently this library knows so many diifferent color representations
18:00:12  <frosch123> that they are using graph algorithms to find conversion paths between them
18:00:18  <supermop_home> but unfortunately most RVs are taller than I thought
18:01:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: that is wtf :P
18:03:18  <supermop_home> if we can get more control over draw order/location of pylons could fix it that way
18:07:08  <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ve lost your link showing the disappearing peatlands :)
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18:21:00  <Alberth> in-game, or in RL?
18:21:36  <andythenorth> IRL
18:21:43  <andythenorth> did you post it here?
18:22:03  <Alberth> if you've seen it, likely :)
18:22:18  <Alberth> MB posted some in the forum, which were nice too
18:23:02  <andythenorth> I mean the one showing the map colour bug, sorry :)
18:23:07  <andythenorth> English lacks precision
18:23:16  <andythenorth> I can’t reproduce it
18:23:17  <Alberth>
18:23:27  <andythenorth> ah, heightmap is on
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18:24:25  <Alberth> every now and then you have to manoeuvre around a heap of tiles :)
18:24:38  <Alberth> or in this case, move up :p
18:25:17  <Alberth> my pyrite mines were at the wrong side of a mountain iirc
18:25:52  <andythenorth> pyrite mine has horrible contrast on green map
18:26:03  <andythenorth> I am 100% NOT red-green colour blind, but I can hardly see it
18:26:19  <Alberth> ah, right, for me it's very visible :)
18:27:04  <Alberth> reading the name of the industry at the legend is becoming difficult though
18:34:18  <andythenorth> any reason? o_O
18:37:08  <Alberth> letters are too small to read without glasses :p
18:37:55  <Alberth> it's very weird when you notice you can't quite focus any more to read details
18:38:11  * andythenorth has glasses :P
18:38:25  <andythenorth> you have original base set font?
18:38:30  <Alberth> yep
18:38:48  <andythenorth> and 2x UI zoom?
18:38:58  <Alberth> or at least, something equally small :p
18:39:06  <Alberth> no zoom, just 1x
18:39:23  <andythenorth> ha
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18:54:53  <frosch123> <- how to validate?
18:55:01  <frosch123> i guess i should generate a html page or something
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18:55:40  <andythenorth> :)
18:55:49  <frosch123> hmm, found a bug
18:55:54  <andythenorth> seems FIRS forest is 100% invisible on dark green map
19:11:58  <Alberth> that's why it can flash white :)
19:16:48  <frosch123>
19:17:16  <frosch123> the result certainly looks weird to me, but not obviously wrong
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19:25:59  <andythenorth> lots of browns eh
19:27:09  <andythenorth> I am suspicious about 0x51
19:27:19  <andythenorth> seems that would disappear on dark green
19:27:20  <frosch123> i am assigning the colors in greedy mode
19:27:31  <frosch123> so it picks some red first, which then downgrades all other reds
19:27:41  <frosch123> it may be smarter to pick two different reds first
19:27:59  <andythenorth> can I just assign them to FIRS industries by ID :P
19:28:06  <andythenorth> industry 0 gets first from list
19:28:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: 0x51 is pretty far down the list
19:28:43  <andythenorth> oh it’s a distance thing?
19:28:44  <andythenorth> ok
19:28:57  <frosch123> all lists contain all the colors which are not map colors
19:29:06  <andythenorth> feel like converting the hex to dec? :P
19:29:07  <frosch123> the ones at the bottom are just very bad
19:29:29  <andythenorth> I’m intrigued how close I got to optimum by guessing
19:29:41  <frosch123> you can't compare that with that list
19:30:08  <frosch123> like the last list has b7 in first position
19:30:27  <frosch123> if you would have picked b6 first, then b7 would be far down the list
19:30:53  <frosch123> b6 and b7 are almost the same color, so once you have picked one, the other one is bad
19:33:10  <andythenorth> I see :)
19:39:35  <frosch123> reload page
19:39:44  <frosch123> i added decimal, and the CIE2000 distance score
19:41:49  <andythenorth> neat
19:42:30  <andythenorth> now how to apply it :)
19:42:41  <frosch123> cound how many industry you have in each climate
19:42:51  <frosch123> then pick the n-th first from the all-map-colors table?
19:44:34  <andythenorth> hmm could do
19:44:42  <andythenorth> means their colour varies per economy
19:44:54  <andythenorth> does original TTD do that too?
19:45:14  <frosch123> original ttd hardly shares industries
19:45:21  <frosch123> but they do not change colors
19:45:46  <frosch123> hmm, so, 0x68 and 0x46 look weird to me
19:46:03  <andythenorth> why?
19:46:30  <frosch123> they are almost the same, still so far up the table
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19:48:54  <andythenorth> fair point
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19:49:48  <frosch123> well, the formula says they have a distance of 14.977
19:50:07  <frosch123> so, blame the formula? or ban dark colors?
19:50:18  <frosch123> or accept it?
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19:53:55  <andythenorth> accept it I think
19:54:08  <andythenorth> it hasn’t favoured many of the brights
19:59:26  <frosch123> <- possibly hard to read :p
20:00:02  <andythenorth> quite cool though
20:00:49  <frosch123> maybe i should add "black" to the map colors, to disencourage dark
20:02:03  <andythenorth> worth trying
20:02:35  <frosch123> reload, looks better to me
20:03:09  <andythenorth> yup
20:03:32  <andythenorth> now to also distinguish from town :)
20:03:47  <andythenorth> there is a reason all FIRS town industries are white or yellow :P
20:04:14  <frosch123> i think you may have to do that manually :p
20:05:03  <andythenorth> I could set colours automatically, unless over-ridden manually
20:06:12  <frosch123> add tags to colors: on sea, on land, in town
20:09:37  <andythenorth> multiple lists?
20:10:39  <frosch123> no idea whether you want to use the same color for two industries if one is on land and the other on sea
20:14:20  <andythenorth> sometimes
20:14:38  <andythenorth> unique colours isn’t a goal I’ve pursued
20:14:56  <andythenorth> I try to make them unique in a chain, and try to keep each economy looking nice as far as possible
20:20:24  <andythenorth> now all I have to do is automate it :)
20:20:29  <V453000> factorio->grf conversion sounds like a challenge "D
20:20:30  <V453000> :D
20:21:28  <andythenorth> what, make grfs in F?
20:21:31  <frosch123> code newgrf in factories
20:22:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: V added a picture to his blog, which showed the art pipepline as a f factory
20:23:29  <frosch123> even "kurzgesagt" just made a video about automatisation
20:23:47  <andythenorth> factory factory
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20:42:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’ll try automating now :P
20:42:44  <andythenorth> based on
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20:46:40  * frosch123 is curious how it will actually turn out in-game
20:49:43  * andythenorth shall find out soon
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21:03:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: pushed
21:04:15  <frosch123> all economies?
21:04:23  <andythenorth> yup
21:04:24  <andythenorth> it’s global
21:04:34  <andythenorth> industry id => colour position in list
21:04:39  <andythenorth> quite crude
21:07:03  <frosch123> docs do not reflect it?
21:08:29  <andythenorth> they do here :)
21:09:35  <frosch123> didn't refresh hard enough i guess
21:09:58  <frosch123> lots of red, lots of yellow
21:10:05  <frosch123> very little blue
21:10:45  <frosch123> (when using steeltown)
21:11:40  <frosch123> maybe you are right with town colors
21:11:48  <frosch123> i have a stockyard next to a town
21:11:53  <frosch123> which is hard to see
21:12:17  <frosch123> but that restricts colors even more
21:12:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have "show height" enabled on the industry map?
21:12:57  <andythenorth> currently yes
21:13:02  <andythenorth> usually not
21:13:03  <frosch123> if disables we could use more colors
21:13:20  <andythenorth> I see no use for it on industry view
21:13:34  <andythenorth> it doesn’t tell me anything I need to know
21:13:51  <frosch123> i have the map always set to industry view
21:14:00  <frosch123> the other map types are useless to me
21:14:16  <frosch123> in hilly terrain i toggle the height to estimate the best route
21:15:28  <andythenorth> fair
21:15:39  <andythenorth> well I’m not going to revert this
21:15:49  <andythenorth> but I’m not convinced it’s finished yet :)
21:16:04  <frosch123> it may require some manual assignment
21:16:08  <frosch123> for town industries
21:16:12  <frosch123> for sea industries
21:16:30  <andythenorth> over-rides
21:16:34  <frosch123> also it makes sense to pick similar colors for industries which you can distinguish by their size
21:16:47  <frosch123> like 1x3 vs. 8x5 can have similar colors
21:17:58  <frosch123> otoh, maybe small industries should use the more obnoxious colors
21:18:14  <frosch123> if a industry has only a few pixels on the map, it's hard to find
21:18:58  <frosch123> it also makes sense to use the colors with higher scores for those industries which appear in multiple climates
21:19:19  <frosch123> so you use the good colors in most economies instead of skipping them
21:19:26  <frosch123> s/climates/economies/
21:21:19  <andythenorth> previously I have pretty much used those rules for manual picking :)
21:22:14  <frosch123> yeah, i basically suggest to use the first n colours from the list, and then assigning them manually :p
21:22:28  <frosch123> but i guess only assigning a subset manually is also fine
21:25:50  <andythenorth> I could repeat :P
21:25:57  <andythenorth> it’s rarely a problem
21:26:03  <andythenorth> first 40 or so :P
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