Log for #openttd on 24th June 2017:
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08:22:50  <Wolf01> o/
08:27:20  <Wolf01> lol
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09:58:34  <andythenorth> o/
09:58:42  <Wolf01> o/
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10:26:17  <Alberth> o/
10:26:26  <Wolf01> o/
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10:34:30  <andythenorth> this readme is daft
10:34:31  <andythenorth>
10:34:36  <andythenorth> what should I do about it?
10:34:49  <andythenorth> FIRS has two disconnected sets of docs
10:35:29  <Wolf01> KISS?
10:35:47  <Wolf01> I think you are overdoing it
10:35:59  <andythenorth> the readme is by other people
10:36:07  <andythenorth> I don’t like to just delete their work
10:36:21  <andythenorth> I wrote this version
10:37:14  <andythenorth> move the readme contents into the ‘get started’ page?
10:37:18  <andythenorth> or just delete most of it?
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10:40:31  <Wolf01> The vehicle set support section is nice but I don't think it really belongs to the readme, maybe that one could be moved to the online docs and you can just keave there the first 3 sentences
10:40:43  <Wolf01> *leave
10:40:49  <andythenorth> I think the list of sets is misleading
10:40:53  <andythenorth> it’s always out of date
10:41:12  <Wolf01> That too, it requires maintenance
10:43:30  <Wolf01> "you need a vehicle set that supports the FIRS cargos. Any vehicle set with proper Cargo Classes support should do that by default. The OpenTTD vehicles will not be able to transport all FIRS cargos." should be sufficient, let players figure out what they need... maybe a topic in the forum and some curators is a better idea
10:44:34  <Alberth> I'd support the idea of merging them
10:45:23  <andythenorth> I think it’s the right choice
10:45:35  <andythenorth> also…a smarter bananas could statically analyse vehicles
10:45:44  <andythenorth> to determine which industry sets are supported :P
10:46:05  <Wolf01> Lol
10:46:08  <Alberth> I like the vehicle list tbh, you could keep it, and start with a generic sentence like Wolf suggests, making the list more of an set of examples
10:46:48  <Alberth> the generic rule "none are compatible" is simpler
10:47:14  <Alberth> you could list the counter-examples, which is close to the empty set :)
10:47:41  <Alberth> and bananas doesn't activate multiple grfs in ones game :p
10:48:41  <Alberth> I do miss a few words about economies though, which exist, perhaps what they aim for, or recommendations how to start playing firs, or even how to play an economy
10:49:01  <andythenorth> ok, noted
10:49:14  <andythenorth> in the readme, or can I do that in the docs?
10:49:30  <Alberth> I'd merge everything into the html version
10:49:33  <andythenorth> ‘get started’ doesn’t mention them properly
10:49:36  <andythenorth> it should
10:49:48  <Alberth> especially since you distribute that :)
10:49:49  <andythenorth> I will rebuild the docs
10:50:13  <andythenorth> I don’t distribute the docs any more, bananas refuses them :P
10:50:19  <andythenorth> but they’re on bundles so eh
10:50:23  <Alberth> aw :(
10:50:41  <andythenorth> I guess mostly people have a connection these days
10:51:19  <andythenorth> vehicle compatibiltiy should be a wiki page
10:51:23  <andythenorth> with someone like Kamnet
10:51:24  <Alberth> the readme is either minimal, pointing to docs, or full, as in, generated from html, or from the same source as html
10:51:34  <andythenorth> minimal
10:51:56  <andythenorth>
10:53:41  <Alberth> Ha, and then you thought you have everything :p
10:54:00  <andythenorth> yup
10:54:00  <Alberth> could be duplicate-ish though
10:54:24  <andythenorth> also this, w.r.t auto-detecting compatible vehicles
10:55:21  <Wolf01> WTF, manga faces
10:57:22  <Alberth> you get a face when you open a company window for changing the savegame pre-fix, but that's the only time I ever see a face :)
10:59:28  <Wolf01> Yeah, it should also automatically load your preset instead of manually clicking on the button :|
10:59:50  <Wolf01> That always pissed me off
11:01:52  <andythenorth> do I need the conflict Error Codes from the readme?
11:02:03  <andythenorth>
11:02:51  <Wolf01> The online docs should have everything, leaving them in the readme might help for a fast reference
11:03:42  <andythenorth> I wonder if they’re of any use at all?
11:03:56  <andythenorth> they can go on the code reference page I guess
11:04:10  <Wolf01> Also
11:04:50  <Wolf01> Or you might explain better the error in the game and completely remove them from the readme
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11:06:43  <Alberth> code has a text explaining it afaik
11:07:32  <Alberth> you could move it to a harmless place like some comment in the code if it's not there already
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11:09:25  <andythenorth> E00, E01, E02, and E04 have lang strings
11:09:33  <Alberth> (13:07:51) Alberth: unless it has external use, but I'd say it's limited at best
11:09:51  <andythenorth> E03 and W01 do not have lang strings, not sure if / where they are used
11:10:01  <andythenorth> I can’t imagine anyone looking these up in the docs
11:10:12  <Alberth> that sounds likely
11:10:24  <andythenorth> delete?
11:10:28  <Alberth> sure
11:10:51  <Alberth> it's useless technical babble :p
11:11:09  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
11:11:10  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
11:11:31  <andythenorth> maybe I should get an account on
11:12:00  <Alberth> devzone not working?
11:12:26  <andythenorth> works great :)
11:12:43  <andythenorth> but the world tends to commodity
11:12:53  <andythenorth> someone else has solved docs better than I ever will
11:13:01  <andythenorth> no slideshow though
11:13:06  * andythenorth keeps own docs
11:13:11  <Alberth> no buttons to select things
11:13:30  <Alberth> no resizable flow charts
11:13:50  <Alberth> keep own docs sounds like a good thing :)
11:17:32  <andythenorth> simpler readme
11:18:09  <andythenorth> ha the repo version is really very wrong
11:18:14  <andythenorth> docs say r5653
11:18:22  <andythenorth> commit is 5707
11:18:33  * andythenorth wonders why that is
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11:19:36  <frosch123> hola
11:20:02  <andythenorth> hi FR^2
11:20:07  <andythenorth> autocomplete eh?
11:20:11  <andythenorth> hi frosch123
11:24:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: bin/hg-info - what’s the difference between REPO_REVISION and REPO_VERSION?
11:24:18  <andythenorth> I am reading it, but can’t follow :)
11:26:25  <Alberth> /me looks
11:26:43  <frosch123> 5653 is today when using the days since 2000-01-01 version theme
11:26:59  <frosch123> oh, wait ,it isn'T, it's today, but two years ago?
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11:28:41  <Alberth> --num-id --version       <-- first is revision (ie a number), second is version description (like firs0.3)
11:29:17  <Alberth> firs doesn't use date, except through devzone afaik
11:30:04  <frosch123> so, just coincidence?
11:30:13  <Alberth> although "version" may include a revision number too
11:31:09  <Alberth> not sure what happened with the number system; I have older firses with higher numbers, so something changed somewhen algo
11:31:21  <Alberth> *ago
11:31:31  * andythenorth testing
11:31:57  <andythenorth> devzone hg has totally different revisions
11:31:59  <andythenorth> that’s odd
11:32:03  <andythenorth> 'odd'
11:32:22  <Alberth> how can that be, you have a clone of that, right?
11:32:30  <andythenorth> my local build of 5707 gives me 5707 in the readme
11:32:54  * andythenorth checks it’s not keyboard-chair error
11:33:03  <andythenorth> nope
11:33:17  <andythenorth> devzone gives 5653 for 5707
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11:35:18  <andythenorth> hash is cd08980bdc8722089dcff849bdb5328d0e32ab94
11:35:27  <andythenorth> from bundles
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11:35:39  * andythenorth totally confused
11:35:46  <andythenorth> devzone hash is cd08980bdc87
11:36:14  <Alberth> hg log -r 5b5cd4d3e9bc8a9e5866f97870c748388a5cb398
11:36:14  <Alberth> changeset:   5706:5b5cd4d3e9bc
11:37:04  <andythenorth> cd08980bdc8722089dcff849bdb5328d0e32ab94 is 5707
11:37:11  <andythenorth> and jenkins tries to build cd08980bdc8722089dcff849bdb5328d0e32ab94
11:37:24  <andythenorth> the content of the repor is correct
11:37:34  <andythenorth> but the revision number is mangled
11:37:48  <andythenorth> is the revision number not bound to the hash?
11:37:52  <Alberth> no
11:38:12  <Alberth> it's an incremental number local to a repo
11:38:17  <andythenorth> ok so maybe bundles has a special repo
11:38:40  <Alberth> different repos have different incremental numbers, unless you explicitly keep them in sync
11:38:53  <andythenorth> ho
11:38:56  <Alberth> which is what you expect to happen if you pull
11:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> revision numbers can mismatch if you have branches that were not pushed
11:39:13  <andythenorth> that means using the revision numbers anywhere is a daft strategy
11:39:16  <andythenorth> :)
11:39:21  <andythenorth> should be using hashes
11:39:31  * andythenorth is unsure how to fix this
11:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> hashes are not incremental
11:40:09  <andythenorth> no
11:40:27  <andythenorth> but there is no valid incremental revision number
11:40:29  <Alberth> this is what the dates since 2K are about, days are incremental
11:40:34  <andythenorth> yes
11:40:45  <andythenorth> but they tend to not be unique
11:40:51  <andythenorth> multiple revisions on same day
11:41:19  <Alberth> wasn't a revision or so added as well?
11:41:29  <andythenorth> not iirc
11:41:45  <Alberth> we did something with BB too in that direction, not sure what exactly
11:41:46  <andythenorth> my objection was that they conflate with the hg revisions, at least for me
11:42:04  <andythenorth> coincidentally FIRS got revisions very close to days since 2K
11:42:10  <andythenorth> which was totally confusing
11:42:40  <Alberth> fair enough :)
11:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could try hours since 2010 :p
11:43:09  <andythenorth> should I manually set the revision on every commit?
11:43:29  <Alberth> that'd be stupid, imho
11:43:30  <andythenorth> could just update a Makefile property every time I commit
11:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very stupid
11:44:25  <andythenorth> there are any non-stupid ideas? :)
11:44:37  <andythenorth> in projects using git, we just publish the hash
11:44:43  * andythenorth has run across this before
11:44:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could make a commit hook, but you'd still have all the nonsense clutter in the repo
11:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and it'll clash when someone else pushes to the repo
11:45:14  <Alberth> hash if you don't care about incremental versioning, or date-ish
11:45:34  <andythenorth> I think it’s better to not care
11:45:44  <Alberth> with or without hash to make it unique
11:46:07  <Alberth> and you can go down to minutes or so, which is likely unique enough
11:46:15  <Alberth> seconds if you're paranoid
11:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you run out of bits quickly, then
11:46:54  <Alberth> who said anything about bits?
11:47:08  <Alberth> 201706241347
11:47:32  <Alberth> using GMT is better :p
11:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine for a string, but i thought we were talking about newgrf versioning
11:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> which is something like 16bit?
11:49:03  <Alberth> hmm, you'd need to do that manually, I think
11:51:08  <Alberth> you don't want a new version every second, so some tool to store and query the newest version?
11:51:27  <Alberth> tag could work
11:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't want to tag every revision
11:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> also, in hg, tags are also revisions
11:54:09  <andythenorth> remarkably hard problem eh :)
11:54:13  <andythenorth> seems simple isn’t
11:54:20  <andythenorth> dvcs with mutable history
11:54:27  <andythenorth> numeric revisions can’t be trusted
11:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i still think numeric revisions are fine, as long as the published versions all come from the same repo
11:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you just can't compare your local revisions with the public ones
11:56:51  <andythenorth> so it’s a configuration problem, rather than a computational problem?
11:57:23  <andythenorth> we did clock synchronisation in my philosophy degree :P
11:57:26  <andythenorth> as a non-solvable
11:58:18  <andythenorth> so I need to delete some revisions, so I get to same number as bundles?
11:58:35  <andythenorth> @calc 5707 - 5653
11:58:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 54
12:00:19  <andythenorth> do ‘hg strip’ on commits  0-53?
12:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> easier to just delete your local repo and re-clone
12:02:53  <andythenorth> but that wouldn’t work
12:03:06  <andythenorth> I have same revisions as remote
12:03:12  <andythenorth> bundles has some special provision
12:04:03  <andythenorth> and bundles isn’t afaik maintained
12:05:24  <Alberth> bundles must be missing something
12:05:35  <frosch123> date is fine for nightlies
12:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but not for hotfix-releases
12:06:31  <frosch123> yeah, not for andy :p
12:06:34  <Alberth> or for referring to a revision
12:07:17  <Alberth> have a sub-number?
12:07:26  <Alberth> N-th release today?
12:07:35  <andythenorth> I think Eddi is right, it’s just a configuration problem
12:07:52  <andythenorth> there is no rationale for bundles being out of sync with devzone
12:08:05  <andythenorth> but I deliberately don’t have ssh access to either
12:08:29  <andythenorth> and afaik, nobody maintains bundles now, since pm + Amml*r went away
12:12:35  <frosch123> oh, bundles and devzone are out of sync?
12:12:46  <frosch123> i guess that's then because of only cloning the default branch?
12:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that is pretty much what i said, it's missing some branches
12:15:39  <frosch123> i assumed it was just andy and devzone being out of sync
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12:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, he wasn't very clear about that
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12:36:08  <andythenorth> I conflated devzone and bundles
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12:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose it's difficult to switch hg to count ancestors instead of commits?
12:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that would solve the incrementality, but potentially cause larger jumps if you merge branches. and parallel branches may have the same number
12:40:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: i create a new checkout on bundles
12:40:20  <frosch123> they are in sync now
12:40:25  <andythenorth> \o/
12:40:28  <frosch123> something with the 0.3 branch
12:40:34  <frosch123> which isn't even a head anymore
12:40:41  <andythenorth> thanks
12:41:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, ancestors can be counted
12:41:08  <planetmaker> hello everyone :)
12:41:36  <planetmaker> (at least if my memory serves me well, then they can)
12:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: care to dig that up?
12:43:29  <planetmaker> looking right now
12:46:43  <frosch123> hg log -f --template '{rev}\n' | wc :p
12:47:01  <frosch123> or even "wc -l"
13:09:54  * andythenorth bbl
13:09:56  <andythenorth> cheers
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13:10:09  <planetmaker> hg log -r0::tip -T"{rev}: {latesttag}-r{changessincelatesttag}\n" is not exactly that
13:10:51  <planetmaker> I think the number of commits in a branch (consecutive commits sind r0) is not easily available. Indeed you'll need wc -l
13:11:18  <planetmaker> what's the actual problem you try to solve, Eddi|zuHause ?
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13:12:10  <planetmaker> devzone actually mostly builds tip on default branch... with other branches... it probably can get confused
13:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: andy needs a revision count that is consistent across different repos, and "number of days since 2000" doesn't work
13:12:38  <planetmaker> {latesttag}-r{changessincelatesttag} should be consistent
13:13:05  <planetmaker> maybe not r, but {latesttag}-build{changessincelatesttag}
13:15:21  <planetmaker> but... what means "accross different repos"? "days since 2000" is consistent, not?
13:17:26  <planetmaker> why isn't it consistent?
13:27:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's consistent, but andy tends to push more than once per day :p
13:27:27  <frosch123> currently firs uses local revision, which is not consistent
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14:23:43  <supermop_home> good morning
14:24:12  <frosch123> o/
14:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "days since 2000" is monotonous, but not strictly monotonous, so when you have build on push, and push twice, you get two different builds with the same number
14:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and local revision is not good, because you get the same build with two different numbers
14:27:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the tree structure is always the same, even if you remove some branches. so number of ancestors is better than either of these other variants
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14:28:10  <frosch123> hoi
14:28:14  <Alberth> o/
14:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so #ancestors+branch name should be unique enough to cause the least amount of confusion
14:34:54  <Alberth> is that something you can easily convert to a commit hash?
14:35:06  <Alberth> would work in git, I think, but in hg?
14:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the commit already has a hash
14:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the problem
14:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the branch name would be only in the filename/grf name/grf description, but you need the incremental numerical value to decide which one is newer
14:38:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that information is used by openttd to show only the "newest" grf for selection, and to decide whether two builds are "compatible"
14:42:55  <Alberth> ah, right, you never use the number to get a commit. Smart idea
14:45:06  <LordAro> revision counts are basically dead these days
14:45:30  <LordAro> most software i've come across just uses latest.release.number.shorthash
14:45:32  <LordAro> or similar
14:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that still requires some central authority to issue the "release.number"
14:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but we need something automatic
14:47:27  <LordAro> true
14:47:49  <LordAro> but things generally have stable releases, just use the last one of those?
14:48:16  <LordAro> it's not monotonic though, of course
14:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> we're still talking about andy here... "stable" doesn't quite fit :p
14:48:28  <LordAro> but :p
14:48:31  <LordAro> s/but //
14:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: we want something that handles two (or more) consecutive test builds
14:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't matter whether the last release was called 1.2 or 5.23
14:50:56  <LordAro> mm
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14:51:18  <supermop_home> do I need the developer setting on to get the sprite offset thing?
14:51:22  <LordAro> what's wrong with just taking the latest (timewise) commit?
14:52:01  <LordAro> no need for counting revisions
15:12:01  <frosch123> supermop_home: yes
15:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: what do you mean?
15:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the same commit may have different numbers on different checkouts, that is the problem
15:25:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, so yes... hg log -r. -T"{latesttag}-b{changessincelatesttag}\n" probably would give you a unique enough version
15:26:22  <planetmaker> and even tell you what possibly know version it might resemble most closely
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15:40:37  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: different numbers, sure, but the hash would be the same
15:40:54  <LordAro> rather, why do you need a monotonic counter from the repo?
15:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but the hash is useless, because you cannot sort by hash
15:41:09  <LordAro> why do you need to sort?
15:41:33  <LordAro> Alberth: gist related poke :]
15:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: to see at a glance which one is newer
15:41:59  <LordAro> commits have timestamps attached to them
15:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> timestamps don't fit in 16 bits
15:42:32  <LordAro> why 16 bits?
15:42:53  <LordAro> i thought this was CI related?
15:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> because 10 years ago someone thought 16 bit ought to be enough for everyone?
15:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> what is CI?
15:43:45  <LordAro> continuous integration
15:43:49  <LordAro> but i mean build related
15:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> this is about OpenTTD's handling of newgrf versions
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15:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> action 14 has a 16-bit version number, and openttd uses this to only display the "newest" version, and whether two versions are "compatible"
15:45:19  <LordAro> right, sure
15:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> historically, the common NewGRF Makefile used the revision number for that value
15:46:05  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if it's about the NewGRF version reported to OpenTTD... does one really need several in a single day? :)
15:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> later, this was replaced by "days since 2000", because revision number was unreliable
15:46:13  <LordAro> so you're wanting to automatically push an experimental(?) grf to bananas on build?
15:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: apparently, yes.
15:46:53  <planetmaker> outch. Ok. For *that* my suggestion doesn't work either... because you cannot squeeze the tag letters into the 16 bits.
15:47:26  <planetmaker> unless you age-sort the tags, too, and squeeze them in the... dunno... 8 bits? And then you're stucke when you're over 256 tags ;)
15:47:43  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: not necessarily as far as bananas, but if you keep builds around for longer on public space like openttdcoop devzone
15:47:51  <planetmaker> or... ok, 10 tag bits, and 6... for in between. Doesn't work either
15:48:07  <LordAro> hrm
15:48:33  <LordAro> days since 2000 concatenated with number of commits today?
15:48:40  <LordAro> so far today*
15:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: specifically, Andy has build-on-push enabled, and sometimes does more than one push per day
15:49:48  <Alberth> not publish at bananas, but on devzone, yes
15:51:21  <planetmaker> lord aro's idea: days since 2000 and counting commits per day... that sounds feasible
15:51:29  <planetmaker> hm...
15:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, maybe each tag could get a specific number that is added to the commits-since-last-tag
15:52:00  <LordAro> that said, it's ultimately not any different to counting the number of commits
15:52:09  <frosch123> number of commits in branch sounds more reasonable to me then
15:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you only have to adjust that table each time you add a tag
15:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> which could be done by a commit hook
15:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so, if you store for each tag the number of commits in the chain to the root, then tag-value+commits-since-tag would be the value that i proposed in the first place
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16:10:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you can easily assign a value to the tag by sorting them by age. That's unique and doesn't need storage. And the commits since the tag is also unique. But(!) you can then still have two commits which get an identical value: commit a tag. And then have from there branch into two equally long heads
16:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:11:28  <planetmaker> which was actually why I didn't choose this method in the first place, iirc: it doesn't ensure uniqueness - and is in some way less intuitive than days-since-2000
16:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> now there's two separate problems in there
16:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> one is, before you commit a tag, and after you commit a tag, these numbers should also be incremental
16:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the other one is, if you do two branches
16:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> how big the branches problem is is really dependent on how much you actually use branches
16:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the tag problem is why i suggested storing the number that that tag would have relative to the previous tag
16:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> say, you make 100 commits, tag that as 1.0, then the next commit should have the number 101 (value of tag 1.0 + 1 commit since tag)
16:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> something along these lines
16:26:21  <Alberth> allocate a block of grfids as "experimental for everybody", and assign numbers from that block?
16:26:50  <Alberth> add bit "this grf is not compatible with any other grf with the same id ?
16:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds terrible
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16:27:38  <Alberth> you want an upgrade path from experimental stuff?
16:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> how would you test whether your test build is compatible with your previous test build?
16:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or with your previous release?
16:28:07  <Alberth> why would it need to be compatible with other test-builds?
16:28:23  <Alberth> previous release, ok, don't use that bit
16:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you deliberately destroy compatibility?
16:29:02  <Alberth> we seem to be running into problems with the number of allocatable numbers, this is one way to make room
16:29:23  <Alberth> s/number/amount/
16:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is a solution for any problem that we're trying to solve
16:30:20  <Alberth> if two grfs are not compatible with anything, their order is non-relevant
16:30:50  <Alberth> as long as we can point out which one it is, which you can do in text  in the grf
16:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> this is the "i solve all problem of humanity by killing all humans" solution
16:31:10  <Alberth> no, I leave all releases alone
16:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> statistically, there aren't all that many releases
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16:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> every interesting thing happens with non-releases
16:32:10  <Alberth> sure, but you don't need an upgrade path there, imho
16:32:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i disagree
16:33:30  <Alberth> ok, fair enough
16:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes youtube is a bit strange... it suggests me minecraft videos that are 5 seconds long and have 6 views?
16:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause> by a channel that has 4 subscribers
16:58:12  <frosch123> well, as long as you are one of them
16:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> nope
17:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe if you round the 5 seconds to 6 seconds (youtube is a bit weird with that), and consider that it was uploaded 6 hours ago... that makes it 666?
17:06:16  <Alberth> you have seen too many videos, so it's desperately trying to give you something new :p
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17:21:14  <andythenorth> o/
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17:28:13  <andythenorth> hmm
17:28:25  <Alberth> o/
17:28:28  <andythenorth> hi
17:28:31  * andythenorth reading logs
17:29:15  <Alberth>  wrong url, isn't it?
17:29:55  <Alberth> ie, it's not LATEST very long :p
17:31:36  <andythenorth> tags are quite infrequent :)
17:31:42  <andythenorth>
17:31:55  <andythenorth> the logs didn’t seem to conclude anything, unless I missed it?
17:32:44  <Alberth> hmm, also, ../release/..,  tricky
17:32:50  <andythenorth> all I can see is ‘this is hard’
17:32:58  <Alberth> yep
17:33:38  <Alberth> I haven't follow the discussion entirely, but I didn't see any conclusion or agreement
17:33:42  <andythenorth> nah
17:33:56  <andythenorth> might be easiest to leave it ‘as is'
17:34:14  <andythenorth> just means bundles will produce ‘broken’ grfs
17:34:40  <Alberth> depending on how you look at it :p
17:34:55  <Alberth> it uses commit count at default
17:35:11  <Alberth> your repo just uses different numbers
17:35:37  <Alberth> so add a hash somewhere you can find it :)
17:38:05  <andythenorth> the min. compatible version in action 14 will be quite broken :)
17:38:16  <andythenorth> broken savegames
17:38:51  <andythenorth> but does *anyone* ever get it from bundles?
17:39:45  <Alberth> I do :)
17:41:00  <Alberth> but I never upgrade firs in a running game
17:41:27  <andythenorth> I wonder if I could just omit the action 14 check
17:41:36  <andythenorth> as it’s not going to be useful
17:42:05  <Alberth> despite disagreement from Eddi, I still think making experimental grfs incompatible with any other version is fine
17:43:35  <andythenorth> docs suggest that 'version' should be used
17:43:39  <andythenorth> which is a shame
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17:45:42  <Alberth> that \d is a 16 bit numbers?
17:46:06  <Alberth> why can't it be something bigger, say a full time-stamp
17:49:01  <andythenorth> historical reasons, I assume :)
17:49:14  <andythenorth> also the time stamp is no solution
17:49:22  <andythenorth> because that’s not stable
17:49:43  <andythenorth> I am 99% certain this is non-solvable, at least without serious complication
17:50:23  <andythenorth> oh does hg have the timestamp as well as the hash?
17:50:26  * andythenorth overlooking that
17:50:42  <frosch123> well, for now bundles is in sync again
17:50:53  <andythenorth> unfortunately not :|
17:51:10  <andythenorth>
17:51:39  <frosch123> oh...
17:52:12  <andythenorth> my words too :)
17:52:37  <frosch123> oi, it does a complete checkout every time
17:52:57  <frosch123> so i need to change something in the build script
17:53:58  <andythenorth> are the build scripts version-controlled?
17:54:03  <andythenorth> I can’t find them in devzone
17:54:03  <Alberth> even git has time-stamps :p
17:54:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: some are, but not every project uses the same
17:54:31  <andythenorth> I usually just look that up from the hash Alberth :P
17:54:44  <andythenorth> not usually trying to determine compatibility based on the rev :P
18:01:46  <frosch123> firs config was different from other projects
18:01:48  <frosch123> trying again
18:01:57  <andythenorth> firs always has to be special eh :P
18:02:06  <frosch123> it's old
18:02:17  <frosch123> the "template" is named "eints-test" :p
18:02:42  <frosch123> so, likely only projects newer than eints are somewhat similar
18:02:59  <andythenorth> :)
18:03:55  <frosch123> <- better?
18:04:23  <planetmaker> the build scripts are version controlled, yes. Either in the firs repo. Or in the devzone repo
18:05:10  <frosch123> planetmaker: the issue here is that jenkins only cloned the branch which were to be compiled
18:05:10  <planetmaker> the devzone has a separate repo... called 'misc' in the hg.o.o instance
18:05:26  <frosch123> i "fixed" that by pulling manuially in ther working dir
18:05:35  <frosch123> but firs was configured to delete the working dir every time
18:05:39  <planetmaker> aye, I think it does that, yes. I think the reason is that cloning everything with zbase was a bad idea
18:06:01  <frosch123> anyway, the build scripts actually do not affect the clone
18:06:14  <planetmaker> or rather slug or whatever v's things were called
18:06:15  <planetmaker> brix
18:06:38  <frosch123> <- there are two "hg pull" in there
18:06:48  <planetmaker> yes... the portion which is cloned is not controlled by the build scripts
18:06:57  <frosch123> the first one from jenkins, the second one from jenkins_build
18:07:15  <frosch123> the jenkins one has "--rev default"
18:07:24  <frosch123> the second one won't fix local revision numbers
18:07:32  <planetmaker> two... is odd
18:07:53  <planetmaker> probably your guess as to the reasons is right... not sure
18:07:59  <planetmaker> but very likely
18:08:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: accurate now ;)
18:08:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's no definite fix
18:08:34  <frosch123> it will break again if someone reinstalls devzone or something
18:08:37  <andythenorth> yes
18:08:43  <frosch123> but likely lasts a few years :p
18:08:50  <planetmaker> what did you do to fix it?
18:08:58  * andythenorth wonders
18:09:10  <andythenorth> script to check hash and rev number against devzone repo?
18:09:22  <andythenorth> devzone is legitimate to consider canonical origin
18:09:32  <andythenorth> fail jenkins if bundles and devzone diverge?
18:09:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: i disabled jenkins deleteing the working dir (which was enabled for firs, but not in the template), and then made a manual clone in the working dir
18:09:53  <planetmaker> ah!
18:10:04  <frosch123> so now it works until someone deletes the working dir again, or until andy makes a branch
18:10:15  <planetmaker> I guess... that was done due to some previous FIRS build issues...
18:10:25  <planetmaker> always doing its special things
18:10:34  <frosch123> the build script contains a purge, so it should be fine
18:10:50  <planetmaker> you would think, yes
18:11:16  <planetmaker> but I've seen that leave traces behind, still
18:12:30  <planetmaker> does it use purge --all -dirs ?
18:14:10  <frosch123> "hg purge --all" unless there is some magic .cache dir in .devzone
18:14:29  <frosch123> please adjust if that is not good enough :)
18:15:29  <frosch123> according to docs "--dirs" would be wrong
18:15:36  <frosch123> since that would *only* delete directories
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20:33:13  <andythenorth> blah blah
20:33:23  <andythenorth> I don’t like all this ‘my first newgrf’ crap :P
20:33:36  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ^^
20:34:15  <andythenorth> I look at that page, and I’m thinking ‘wtf is FIRS'
20:34:17  * Wolf01 reads
20:34:20  <andythenorth> also ‘why 80 industries'
20:34:24  <andythenorth> stupid ammount
20:35:12  <Wolf01> 1. Switch point 1 with the "get started"
20:36:11  <Wolf01> Also... get started...
20:36:18  <andythenorth> “New to newgrfs?” “How did you find FIRS docs then?"
20:36:19  <andythenorth> :P
20:36:26  <Wolf01> Yeah
20:36:31  <andythenorth> it’s only linked via forums, and via in-game content
20:37:09  <Wolf01> I would make the point 7 as FIRS presentation
20:37:17  <andythenorth> agreed
20:37:21  <andythenorth> glad you said that
20:40:21  <andythenorth> ach conflict detection, it’s so boring
20:41:02  <andythenorth> here’s what’s incompatible
20:54:45  <andythenorth> added them to the html docs
20:55:30  <andythenorth> and found a bug :P
21:02:56  * andythenorth must to bed
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21:52:30  <Wolf01> Shit... I think I failed the lazy bastard objective :(
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22:51:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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