Log for #openttd on 14th July 2017:
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10:04:21  <Wolf01> o/
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13:28:03  <supermop> yo
13:31:22  <crem> seems so
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14:42:51  <Alberth> hi hi
14:44:15  <crem> hi hi hi hi
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15:10:27  <frosch123> bau
15:11:50  <Alberth> o/
15:12:10  <Alberth> or hw8  ?
15:13:11  <frosch123> is that a unicode codepoint?
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15:26:55  <Alberth> it"s bau" shifted one key to start with "h", but it fails on making "hoi"
15:27:31  <frosch123> ah :)
15:27:35  <frosch123> "bau" is italian
15:27:43  <Alberth> :O
15:28:21  <frosch123> italian for "woof"
15:28:38  <Alberth> :)
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15:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you know wolves don't actually "woof"
15:34:36  <frosch123> will ask him later
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15:39:25  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: juvenile wolf puppies do sometimes
15:51:11  <Wolf01> Quak, o/
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17:43:38  <andythenorth> o/
17:44:25  <frosch123> moi
17:47:47  <Wolf01> o/
17:51:53  <andythenorth> what to do?
17:54:05  <Wolf01> An usual reply to that question between my friends is "disgust", but it's because "what to do" and "what we are" it's the same in italian :P
17:54:28  <andythenorth> we are what we do eh?
17:54:37  <Wolf01> Yeah :D
17:56:53  <andythenorth> fricking FIRS :)
17:57:02  <andythenorth> last 20% time
17:57:08  <andythenorth> takes 80% of the effort
17:57:39  <andythenorth> ‘overlapping cargo payment curves’ :P
17:57:42  * andythenorth will fix that
17:58:01  <Wolf01> Lucky, usually is last 10% takes 90% effort
18:02:19  <andythenorth> I just have 3 industries to draw
18:02:23  <andythenorth> a few bugs to fix
18:02:31  <andythenorth> and a complete rework of all economies :P
18:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the 90-90 rule
18:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time
18:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and the other 10% of the work take the other 90% of the time
18:13:27  <frosch123> there are also some fancy 90-10 rules :p
18:13:52  <frosch123> use 10% of your time to solve 90% of the problems
18:14:05  <Wolf01> I follow the 10% rule, do 10% of the work in 10% of the time and stop
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18:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i like that rule, i followed that through to the point where i reduced it by 1% every year
18:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and after 10 years i did basically 0 work
18:17:56  <frosch123> get 90% of the money for 10% of the work
18:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i also did that. i went back to 10% of the work, but upped the money from 10% to 90% :p
18:29:55  <andythenorth> should I render the payment curve in docs?
18:29:59  <andythenorth> with pil or something?
18:30:00  <andythenorth> :P
18:30:20  <andythenorth> can I automate payment curves? :P
18:31:10  <frosch123> if you add up the time of every ottd player since they last looked at the payment curves, will you get more than the age of the universe?
18:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> does that algorithm terminate?
18:38:53  <andythenorth> BUT PAYMENT CURVES ARE VERY SERIOUS
18:38:56  <andythenorth> AND IMPORTANT!
18:39:47  <Alberth> point to them instead :p
18:40:15  <andythenorth> mostly I just need to prevent 1:1 overlap
18:40:24  <andythenorth> which happens due to copy-paste of the cargo definitions
18:44:01  <frosch123> then fill them with random numbers
18:44:37  <frosch123> or use the industry id :p
18:44:44  <frosch123> err, cargo id
18:47:47  <Wolf01> Mmmh, the simyoulater post on NRT...
18:51:23  <andythenorth> you just finished reading it? o_O
18:51:28  <andythenorth> did it take several days?
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18:55:58  <DorpsGek> __ln__: glx was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <glx> ievan for me
18:56:30  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> did it take several days? <- yes
18:58:10  <Wolf01> I think he is just trying to tell us to plan carefully the feature to not change it later
18:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> he does realize he's talking to andy?
18:58:51  <Wolf01> :D
19:01:02  <andythenorth> because somehow I am God of NRT
19:01:37  <andythenorth> I found the post quite interesting
19:01:59  <andythenorth> somehow it both groks significant issues, whilst also missing them
19:05:54  <andythenorth> do we have different number of railtypes for i386 and x64?
19:05:55  <andythenorth> :o
19:05:58  * andythenorth didn’t know that
19:06:15  <andythenorth> the map has different bits available for different architectures?
19:06:18  <andythenorth> that is fricking insane
19:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably gone through a fractal of half-knowledge
19:08:29  <frosch123> yes, that's why i386 and x64 always desync when playing together :p
19:08:44  <Wolf01> :o
19:08:56  <frosch123> (not)
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19:09:41  <frosch123> andythenorth: the only issue that we have with i386 support is that we do not support bigger sprite caches than 2gb
19:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you!!
19:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that's discrimination!
19:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> check your privileges!
19:10:37  <frosch123> i bought a bigger graphics card only for factorio
19:10:44  <frosch123> i.e. only because of V
19:10:55  <frosch123> i hope he gets a share from the manufacturer
19:14:46  <Wolf01> I'm still thinking about changing catenary to a flag (for railtypes too)
19:15:18  <andythenorth> that’s how this all started :P
19:15:24  <Wolf01> I know
19:15:27  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I just can’t face the barrage of shit
19:15:54  <andythenorth> catenary SIMPLY MUST be able to distinguish 25KV AC, 1500V DC, etc
19:16:00  <andythenorth> AND WHAT ABOUT THIRD RAIL!!!!!
19:16:04  <frosch123> i wondered about splitting of the ground+sideways, which may include catenary
19:16:34  <frosch123> i.e. catenary would be on the level of  lamps and parking lots
19:16:42  <Wolf01> Also 4 railtypes with the same exact graphic with only different speed limit...
19:17:03  <andythenorth> ok seriously
19:17:14  <andythenorth> if I add catenary to a tile, is it available for both road and tram?
19:17:27  <frosch123> currently it isn't
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19:17:38  <frosch123> but when moving to sideways, it would
19:17:57  <andythenorth> so does that transform the type?
19:18:36  <Wolf01> We could do a facade style thing, the problem will be on the grf side
19:18:54  <frosch123> no idea, does building track change the sidewalks?
19:19:20  <andythenorth> dunno :)
19:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone's spamming me with this link, must be valuable.
19:19:47  <Wolf01> Grfs should provide both with and without catenary, if both versions are present, the one with catenary is masked and you have a button to convert it to electrified
19:20:57  <Wolf01> If only electrified is present then there is no "remove catenary" button, and same happens for when the grf defines only standard type
19:21:05  <Wolf01> This is all about UI work
19:21:29  <Wolf01> But still limits the number of roadtypes
19:21:48  <Wolf01> You see 8 and instead you have 15 of them
19:22:02  <Wolf01> But is clean
19:22:48  <Wolf01> The user doesn't have to choose between 15 types which are really 8
19:23:10  <Wolf01> Or even 4
19:23:24  <andythenorth> can I electrify maglev?
19:23:44  <Wolf01> If it defines the catenary feature, why not?
19:24:35  <andythenorth> can I electrify ELRD?
19:24:56  <Wolf01> ELRD should not exist, is ROAD+catenary
19:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> electrified wetrail
19:26:59  <Wolf01> The best thing to do instead is to have just the *types you need, place infrastructures like catenary and speed limits
19:27:02  <andythenorth> Wolf01: want to patch? :P
19:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> remove roadtypes, make speedlimit signs
19:27:43  <Wolf01> The problems is where to find enough bits
19:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but haven't we already discussed a separate "with catenary" flag?
19:28:09  <Wolf01> Catenary should have number of *types in tile * types of electrification
19:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> have a "subnet mask"-style mapping of bits towards roadtypes and catenary types :p
19:28:51  <Wolf01> OR! Just one electrification for all, with a single bit
19:29:25  <andythenorth> that was my preference :P
19:29:34  <andythenorth> fucks about catenary types I don’t give
19:29:43  <Wolf01> And the graphic is composed depending of which *types are present
19:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: problem with that is that it'll eventually clash with some random newgrf developer's idea about what it should do vs. what you originally intended it to mean
19:30:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s the case for all the newgrf spec :)
19:30:21  <Wolf01> Like everything
19:30:25  <andythenorth> so it’s 100% true, but for all cases
19:30:29  <andythenorth> so non-significant :)
19:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there's different layers to this
19:30:49  <andythenorth> it’s only a matter of which developer, when, and how wrong they are :D
19:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like saying "whether science is 50% right or 99.9% right is irrelevant, it's still 100% wrong"
19:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> which is how we ended up with a president trump and a brexit, and ...
19:32:18  <andythenorth> what’s the problem with the current implementation?
19:32:24  <andythenorth> it’s clunky, but it works
19:32:34  <FLHerne> Doesn't the Dutch set already have different catenary sprites by railtype or something?
19:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's a problem, because with roadtypes, you can have two roadtypes with clashing catenary sprites
19:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> on the same trackbits
19:33:44  <FLHerne> That might look odd
19:34:11  <Wolf01> There's sprite composition
19:34:19  <FLHerne> Does notroadtypes also allow newgrfs to set their own sprites?
19:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> would be weird if it didn't
19:34:51  <frosch123> that's kind of the main point
19:35:19  <andythenorth> isn’t the problem solely that town roads can’t be electrified?
19:35:21  <frosch123> Wolf01: i think if there is a separate ground type to bui,d we can greatly reduce the number of road and tram types
19:35:25  <andythenorth> are there other issues?
19:35:48  <frosch123> taking the current example grfs, we have like 100 ground types, 3 road types, 3 tram types
19:35:59  <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, that could be a good idea
19:36:13  * andythenorth fails to understand :)
19:36:19  <andythenorth> ground type?
19:36:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: sidewalks vs parking lots vs cobble stone vs asphalt does not change the type of vehicles which drive on them
19:36:57  <Wolf01> Grass, dirt, cobbles, pavement, asphalt
19:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine CHIPS but for roads
19:37:16  <frosch123> yellow lines vs white lines does not either
19:37:18  <andythenorth> eye candy
19:37:25  <andythenorth> so more like building stations
19:37:39  <andythenorth> we have no bits for this though?
19:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there's never enough bits, we should remove all bits
19:38:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would solve the gameplay issues first before worrying about bits :p
19:38:32  <Wolf01> We should remove stations and place them on a common array
19:39:24  <andythenorth> the problem for me is that NRT just works
19:39:34  <andythenorth> such simple needs for andythenorth
19:39:34  <frosch123> does it?
19:39:58  <andythenorth> the compatibility is…tedious
19:40:25  <andythenorth> w.r.t not being able to bridge incompatible types with a 3rd type
19:40:45  <andythenorth> the rest works
19:57:47  <andythenorth> so cobble road is just ROAD and so on?
20:02:32  <frosch123> it's like manual built town zones
20:05:36  <andythenorth> so that moves 80% of types out of the global toolbar, and into a construction toolbar? o_O
20:06:20  <frosch123> no idea :)
20:06:45  <andythenorth> it’s quite appealing
20:06:51  <andythenorth> what problem is solved?
20:07:14  <frosch123> that we do not invent roadtype compatibility for eye candy differences
20:07:47  <frosch123> which likely also removes problems with upgrading existing roads of towns
20:07:51  <andythenorth> ok so what if simyoulater is ~right?
20:07:56  <frosch123> because changing eye candy does not affect routing
20:08:05  <andythenorth> I can’t avoid implementation details, because they always matter
20:08:07  <frosch123> i have not read it :üp
20:08:21  <andythenorth> but what about options to turn on/off sidewalks, catenary etc when constructing
20:08:28  <andythenorth> rather than inherent to the type
20:08:32  <frosch123> that's too explicit
20:08:39  <andythenorth> ok
20:08:46  <andythenorth> so something not than that
20:08:52  <frosch123> when you select dirt roads, there is little point in selecting parking lots and sidewalks
20:09:34  <frosch123> when changing ground type of existing roads i am thinking about something like the object gui
20:09:42  <frosch123> i just have no idea how to build new road :p
20:09:46  * andythenorth never uses objects
20:09:49  * andythenorth will try now
20:10:06  <andythenorth> where are objects? :P
20:10:14  <frosch123> landscape bar
20:10:23  <frosch123> but just think of them like chips
20:10:47  <andythenorth> looking at GarryG’s fake roads
20:11:15  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:11:17  <andythenorth> lego road plates
20:11:41  <frosch123> including lego tram?
20:11:50  <andythenorth> not so much :P
20:11:53  <frosch123> (too few pixels)
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20:14:15  <andythenorth> is catenary eye candy or no?
20:15:43  <frosch123> i wondered whether the eye-candy level should provide the graphics for the catenary, while road/tram type provide the requirement
20:16:31  <frosch123> which may imply that not all eye-candys allow catenary
20:17:15  <frosch123> anyway, independent of that, we should group road/tram types with/without catenary, so adding catenary upgrades both types
20:17:50  <frosch123> (i think wolf wrote that before)
20:18:52  <andythenorth> I have only played an hour or so with electric RVs
20:19:08  <andythenorth> so I likely didn’t get confused much about routing them on tram catenary
20:19:29  <frosch123> the issue with not being able to visually distinguish road from tram catenary will fall onto someones feet somewhen
20:19:37  <andythenorth> I can imagine the problem
20:19:45  <frosch123> so it makes sense to tie the electrifcation of both to each other
20:22:12  <andythenorth> does that demand that every road type is upgradeable to a different (electrified) label?
20:22:37  <frosch123> no
20:23:08  <frosch123> but if it is, building electric tram + removing tram will keep the now electrified road
20:23:34  <frosch123> may also depend on whether there are vehicles
20:24:03  <andythenorth> if this wasn’t OpenTTD, I’d propose just a flag on the tile
20:24:08  <andythenorth> ‘electrified’
20:24:21  <andythenorth> which would work fine if it was a game, and not a reality simulator
20:24:24  <frosch123> you are thinking in bits again :p
20:24:35  <andythenorth> nah, gameplay
20:24:46  <andythenorth> there are limited number of dimensions for interesting variety
20:24:59  <andythenorth> the dragon game my kids play has fish and wood, and runes
20:25:06  <andythenorth> not 25 kids of fish
20:25:27  <andythenorth> although there are 2 kinds of runes :P
20:26:33  <frosch123> sounds like rock-paper-scissor
20:26:47  <andythenorth> when designing train sets it’s already hard to provide difference between electric and other types
20:26:51  <frosch123> runes beat wood, wood beats fish, fish beats runes
20:27:10  <andythenorth> depends on what you need most right now
20:27:24  <andythenorth> usually you need fish to feed the dragons to get more wood so you can earn runes
20:27:31  <andythenorth> then the runes get you more fish
20:27:39  <andythenorth> casual gaming :P
20:27:48  <andythenorth> or £48.99 to just get the runes now
20:28:59  <andythenorth> my view is quite distorted probably
20:29:14  <andythenorth> I considered 2 kinds of electric rail in Iron Horse (catenary and 3rd rail)
20:29:16  <andythenorth> for realisms
20:29:21  <andythenorth> but it made no sense
20:29:26  <andythenorth> one type is enough
20:30:18  <andythenorth> newgrf authors make poor spec designers :P
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20:56:17  * andythenorth tries to figure out practicalities
20:56:33  <andythenorth> so I upgrade my tramway to 3rd rail tramway
20:58:50  <andythenorth> no catenary :)
20:58:58  <andythenorth> ha, problem solved ;)
20:59:23  <andythenorth> all trams must be Bordeaux style
21:01:34  * andythenorth gives up :)
21:01:36  <andythenorth> sleep time
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23:45:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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