Log for #openttd on 16th July 2017:
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06:23:22  <andythenorth> o/
06:23:32  <supermop_> good morning
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06:44:12  <Alberth> o/
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06:53:03  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
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07:11:58  <supermop_> good night
07:15:26  <andythenorth> bye supermop
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07:36:25  <Alberth> all these long evening discussions :)
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08:39:09  <Wolf01> Moin
08:41:05  <Wolf01> I concluded that I like OTTD as is, and we just need to find a solution for the double catenary.
08:41:20  <Alberth> o/
08:43:08  <andythenorth> hi Wolf01
08:43:43  <Wolf01> If I want something different there are cities skylines and transport fever :P
08:49:17  <Wolf01> lolwhat
08:51:07  <andythenorth> gauntlet track :)
08:52:06  <Wolf01> Related to yesterday picture:
08:54:03  * andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring
08:55:17  <andythenorth> there are a few problems though
08:55:22  <Wolf01> "how to tell if exist both catenary for trolley bus and tram on a tile for transport tycoon" isn't so helpful.. only frosch and unspooled pictures come up
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09:01:19  <Wolf01> [10:54:01] * andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring <- you mean ground types?
09:01:29  <andythenorth> yes
09:01:46  <andythenorth> I think it’s potentially a confusing, clunky UI
09:02:06  <andythenorth> and I can’t understand how overbuilding would work when you just want to add tram to road or vice versa
09:02:29  <andythenorth> but I think otherwise it has some interesting advantages
09:03:41  <Wolf01> Based on what I understood, it's just another way to call the "powered *types" algorythm
09:04:03  <andythenorth> yes, it’s a rearranging
09:04:06  <andythenorth> afaict
09:04:34  <andythenorth> instead of having e.g. dedicated cobble road, compatible with ROAD
09:04:54  <andythenorth> you have all the ROAD compatible types in a menu, and choose to build one based on appearance
09:05:23  <Wolf01> So, grfs need to provide all the possible combinations and the game just prompts what it found and let you do it or not
09:05:26  <andythenorth> I’ve always found compatibility a fucked up concept
09:05:36  <andythenorth> because….HTH is the player supposed to know what’s compatible?
09:06:05  <andythenorth> it’s a spec designed for authors :P
09:06:33  <andythenorth> it’s quite onanistic
09:07:09  <Wolf01> "quite"
09:08:50  <andythenorth> I’d have to play with the railtypes wiki pages open
09:08:58  <andythenorth> and I don’t even know what label a vehicle uses :P
09:09:34  <Wolf01> Yes, it's a bit confusing, too much reality crammed in
09:31:34  <Wolf01> I was thinking about *types as basesets, you can select only one
09:31:47  <Wolf01> The problem is that they need to be complete
09:32:24  <Wolf01> You can't have one for roads and one for tramways, but you need to have something like unspooled
09:39:49  <Wolf01> ha
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09:55:27  <adf88> hi
09:56:13  <adf88> we have MAX_BUILDING_PIXELS which is a pixel limit for "buildings"
09:56:20  <adf88> it's 200px
09:56:29  <adf88> I was wandering
09:56:42  <adf88> wondering
09:57:12  <__ln__> wandering is also nice
09:57:14  <adf88> if other similar limits could be defined for different tile types
09:57:53  <adf88> e.g. a bridge sprite is assumed to be max 200px high
09:58:12  <adf88> maybe this limit could be smaller
09:58:53  <adf88> this whole limits are used when painting tiles - to detect if they are visible
09:59:03  <adf88> and whether they need to be painted
10:00:10  <FLHerne> Is that 200px above deck height, or the ground?
10:00:33  <FLHerne> Second one can be reached fairly easily with tall bridges
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10:00:42  <adf88> above norther corner of tile ground (foundations included)
10:01:00  <Wolf01> Quak
10:01:06  <adf88> in case of bridges
10:01:13  <adf88> it's limit above the deck
10:01:34  <adf88> 200px seems many
10:03:13  <frosch123> hoi
10:03:57  <adf88> hi
10:04:00  <frosch123> adf88: for performance reason?
10:04:02  <frosch123> or why?
10:04:22  <adf88> yes
10:04:41  <adf88> i'm trying to tweak ViewportAddLandscape
10:04:46  <frosch123> i guess make a quick hack for clear land and trees, and profile whether it makes a difference at all :)
10:04:59  <adf88> there is exclusive limit for bridges
10:05:11  <adf88> so I;m wondering, maybe just lower it
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10:05:41  <FLHerne> adf88: This must be fairly close
10:05:59  <FLHerne> (not actually an in-game screenshot, aaui)
10:09:12  <adf88> Exactly 200px :)
10:12:33  <FLHerne> Mm, so it's a good yardstick for how ridiculously huge a 200px bridge would be
10:12:56  <FLHerne> Lower limit might be sane ;p
10:25:45  <andythenorth> ach, 1 more FIRS thing done for v3
10:27:53  <adf88> are you familiar with the glitch in zBase on tile grid lines?
10:27:53  <adf88> ground sprites are anti-aliased thus blurred and oversized at edges
10:27:53  <adf88> does the sprite sorter assume no overlapping, thus glitches?
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10:34:43  <frosch123> ottd does not clear the previous screen contents before drawing
10:35:09  <frosch123> is the groundtiles are not opaque, you will see whatever dirt there was before
10:35:20  <frosch123> groundtiles are drawn top to bottom, unless there are foundations
10:36:02  <adf88> so the sprites are undersized?
10:36:44  <frosch123> yes, i think so
10:36:44  <adf88> because it would mean  that to less is being drawn right?
10:36:48  <adf88> too less
10:38:13  <frosch123> you could add a GfxFillRect at the beginning of ViewportDoDraw to clear the background
10:38:28  <frosch123> grey if you want to hide it, pink if you want to make it obvious :)
10:42:13  <frosch123> though not sure whether grey works with the outside-map area
10:48:52  <adf88> nah, zBase should fix their sprites :p
10:52:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: with ground types, how does overbuilding work? o_O
10:52:53  <andythenorth> say I want to add tram to the current tile?
10:53:45  <frosch123> the groundtype is asked whether it is possible. if it says no, you have two options: do not allow building tram, or revert ground to some default ground which allows everything
10:54:13  <andythenorth> if I want to keep road on the tile, do I have to find the current roadtype in the UI?
10:54:24  <frosch123> likely the former, since "default ground" may be weird
10:55:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean some query tool? set filter according to existing tile?
11:00:53  <andythenorth> yes, I think
11:01:22  <andythenorth> seems I have to know the current roadtype (or tramtype) before I can overbuild to add tram (or road)
11:02:02  <frosch123> yes, if you have road and haul  next to each other
11:02:26  <frosch123> but other than that i would think incompatibiltiy is a rare case
11:03:11  <andythenorth> something I can’t articulate there
11:03:32  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe it’s a non issue
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11:42:14  <andythenorth> anyone fancy testing FIRS Basic economies, now that MNSP is removed?
11:42:39  <andythenorth>
11:49:15  <adf88> damn
11:49:21  <adf88> another thing hard to revert
11:49:28  <adf88> why there are two bits used to store "is bridge above" state in Tile::type?
11:49:34  <adf88>  one would be enough
11:55:23  <LordAro> adf88: oh, i did make my own FALLTHROUGH patch, looked very similar to yours :)
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11:55:44  <LordAro> naturally i'm currently away from the computer with it on
11:56:23  <adf88> i just did basic grep/sed and fix warnings that's all
11:56:52  <adf88> the patch needs tweak for different compilers tho
11:57:13  <LordAro> yeah, basically
11:57:23  <LordAro> i think i had gotten that far
11:57:30  <LordAro> wanted to test with clang as well, iirc
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12:10:03  <FLHerne> adf88: Not for different bridge axes?
12:10:29  <adf88> if only bridges could cross each other...
12:11:02  <FLHerne> If there's a bridge above and that matters, you have to search for a bridgehead to actually get any info on the bridge
12:11:44  <FLHerne> Separate flags for each axis would reduce the number of wasted tiles to search
12:11:53  <adf88> ah, yes, you're right
12:12:03  <adf88> didn't spot that
12:13:30  <FLHerne> But then, it's rare to build very many bridges in parallel, so it might not help very much
12:15:06  <frosch123> you only need to change a few lines to allow crossing bridges :)
12:15:12  <frosch123> it will look bad, but it likely works
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12:21:12  <andythenorth> is 15 years of play enough to test an economy? o_O
12:22:27  <frosch123> to mass produce some medicine i think you need to test it with 20 people
12:32:06  <andythenorth> is FIRS a controlled substance?
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12:43:55  <Wolf01> I almost emptied my netflix watchlist, there are all the star trek series now
12:44:26  <Flygon> To go or seen?
12:44:36  <Flygon> I really gotta watch through TOS and Enterprise before hitting Discovery when it comes.
12:45:34  <Wolf01> To go, I've seen a lot of anime series I missed before
12:45:49  <Wolf01> And movies
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12:48:50  <Flygon> Oh man.
12:49:01  <Flygon> Yeah, that'll keep you busy for at least 3 months.
12:49:10  <Flygon> ...add a week if you're gonna do the films.
12:49:16  <Flygon> Oh! Wolf01.
12:49:22  <Flygon> Add Heavy Metal, if you haven't seen it.
12:49:46  <Flygon> Possibly the greatest Canadian film of all time.
12:50:20  <Flygon> Oh, crap.
12:50:23  <Wolf01> Eh... not available in my country
12:50:26  <Flygon> I thought this was a different IRC network and channel.
12:50:36  <Flygon> Yeah, I thought this was an... er, AU-related channel.
12:50:52  <Flygon> Yeah, it's on AU Netflix.
12:52:10  <Wolf01> BTW I know it
12:52:56  <Flygon> The film?
12:53:00  <Wolf01> Yes
12:53:10  <Flygon> Aye.
12:57:02  <Flygon> Then you probably know why I'm so embaressed espousing it in #openttd hahaha.
12:57:21  <Flygon> I saw your name and my brain went "Oh, yep. Definitely this channel that casually discusses R-rated films".
12:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> why shouldn't that be a thing that we discuss?
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13:00:23  <Flygon> Not really something I ever saw discussed here. :V
13:04:13  <Wolf01> I think we are almost all of the right age here :P
13:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, if you straight out linked porn here, i could see people going "don't do that"... but casually suggesting a movie?
13:19:01  <Flygon> I'm a very shy man!
13:19:49  <Wolf01> Me too, but not on internet, on internet I'm a werehuman (a wolf which transforms to human)
13:22:04  <Flygon> You are possibly the single greatest enemy to the furry fandom. :P
13:22:14  <Wolf01> Not a furry
13:22:23  <Flygon> Hence enemy!
13:22:25  <Wolf01> :P
13:22:45  <Wolf01> Also not brony and other stuff like that
13:23:03  <Wolf01> Only lego
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13:30:26  <Flygon> I'm beginning to regret colourizing and inbetweening this animation in pixel art.
13:30:35  <Flygon> Onion skinning works poorly at low res.
14:05:36  <Wolf01> Also
14:07:19  <frosch123> i know it, but i cannot name it
14:07:32  <Wolf01> GoT
14:07:35  <frosch123> it's likely vangelis, but which movie?
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14:08:08  <frosch123> oi, i was thinking along dark star or something :p
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14:10:21  <Wolf01> Also I don't know if I would like to start watching the new season this night or wait until the end and watch it all
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14:41:40  <supermop_> andythenorth I rarely play more than 15 years
14:42:23  <supermop_> any seriously built out passenger network can't really be readily overhauled past that point so I lose interest
14:45:52  <supermop_> Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby?
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14:47:52  <supermop_> yo Alberth
14:49:24  <Alberth> o/
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15:07:57  <Fabinis> good day, what port should i open to host openttd server? TCP 3979 ?
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15:12:09  <Wolf01> @ports
15:12:09  <DorpsGek> Wolf01: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:16:11  <Wolf01> machine learning NML...
15:16:28  <Wolf01> Maybe soon or later it learns to combine FIRS automagically
15:16:37  <Wolf01> o/ Alberth
15:16:55  <Wolf01> <supermop_> Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby? <- wtf XD
15:17:46  <Fabinis> thx
15:25:55  <Alberth> the problem with those books is that you also have to read them :p
15:26:13  <Wolf01> I read all the titles
15:29:14  <Alberth> aka a very short summary :)
15:34:13  <Wolf01> Also I'm a hoarder, something might always be useful :P
15:35:23  <andythenorth> eh Temperate Basic FIRS is good
15:35:29  * andythenorth had better test the next one
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16:58:21  <andythenorth> frosch123 …you thought there was a way to shuffle the FIRS economy order in action 14, without breaking saves? o_O
16:59:02  <frosch123> yes
17:00:23  <Exec> Hey. I have this mess of lines/junctions. Any ideas to make it better? :D I can't destroy buildings, not in the current state with those cities. Money is not much of an issue (although I wouldn't use the bribe option)
17:00:58  <andythenorth> more bridges? o_O
17:02:21  <frosch123> more bridges, more tunnels, less sharp curves
17:03:07  <__ln__> do you mean curves that are less sharp, or fewer sharp curves
17:03:35  <frosch123> either way works
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17:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say the former is a better goal, because it's the sharpness of the curves that is the bigger problem, not the amount of curves
17:09:08  <frosch123> wow, there are areas in the world where felix is spelled feliks
17:09:41  <andythenorth> hmm
17:09:51  <andythenorth> PIPE needs some dedicated station and depot sprites
17:12:25  <andythenorth>
17:23:15  <frosch123> hmm, meh, reordering economies does not work :/
17:23:34  <frosch123> the numeric values of the combobox items must be consecutive
17:24:13  <andythenorth> that’s what I found :)
17:24:23  <andythenorth> glad it’s not just me :P
17:24:45  <andythenorth> there is a mechanism to abstract the position from the numeric_id
17:24:58  <andythenorth> but not in a way that will preserve savegames
17:25:12  <andythenorth> and I’m not sure it actually works :P
17:37:46  <Wolf01> Preserving savegames is easy, breaking change -> new major version
17:38:07  <andythenorth> I might just break savegame :P
17:38:10  <andythenorth> including my own
17:39:23  <Wolf01> As if it never happened before
17:39:30  <Wolf01> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:41:37  <frosch123> removing MNSP should already break everything
17:45:41  <andythenorth> yes
17:45:51  <andythenorth> FIRS 2 savegames were long ago broken :O
17:46:02  <andythenorth> wrong emoji :P
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17:58:24  <andythenorth> Tropic Basic is probably ok
17:58:33  <andythenorth> 3 years in, I don’t miss MNSP :P
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18:19:55  * andythenorth uses the ‘jet planes won’t crash (much)’ cheat
18:19:58  <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
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18:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you! you must only play the pure base game. (no newgrf, all default settings)
18:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, not even default settings, but the default settings of 10 years ago
18:29:43  <andythenorth> I just can’t be building big airports for delivering supplies to oil wells :P
18:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> helicopters
18:30:12  <andythenorth> too slow for the distance
18:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i once used zeppelins
18:30:34  <andythenorth> +1
18:30:48  <andythenorth> zellepins are great for that
18:30:53  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
18:30:53  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 15 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 11 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Pikka> not really sure yet
18:33:24  <Wolf01> Indeed
18:33:54  <andythenorth> so should we have a NewNotRoadTypes spec?
18:34:05  <andythenorth> it’s 12 months since I wrote the last one :P
18:34:38  <Wolf01> Add some punctuation and release it as v2
18:35:05  <Wolf01> Shit... already 1 year?
18:35:18  <Wolf01> Meh...
18:35:47  <andythenorth> stuff takes time :)
18:43:20  <frosch123> 10 years ago i wrote grf2html :)
18:51:47  <andythenorth> 9 years of FIRS :P
18:52:48  <andythenorth> ok time to break savegames :P
18:52:52  <andythenorth> more
18:53:30  <V453000> ._.
18:53:32  <V453000> what is years
18:54:12  <andythenorth> 365.25 days, no?
18:54:21  <andythenorth> how long are slug years?
18:54:40  <V453000> yes
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19:01:00  <andythenorth> V453000: have you drawn the FIRS industries I need yet?
19:03:54  <V453000> not one pixel done
19:07:50  <andythenorth> bit lame
19:09:17  <frosch123> maybe you can trick him into thinking slug and slag being the same
19:09:47  <Alberth> I think slag would make great food for slugs
19:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> they used slag around here to pave roads
19:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> they get incredibly slippery when wet
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19:46:04  <andythenorth> I need a grfid for OpenGFX+ industries
19:46:08  <andythenorth> w.r.t
19:46:25  <andythenorth> oh, the patch has it on the issue :)
19:46:28  <andythenorth> winner
19:52:48  <Alberth> took only a year to find it :)
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20:00:10  * andythenorth closing tickets :)
20:02:11  <andythenorth> not many left
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20:08:01  <Alberth> :O
20:08:16  <Alberth> almost done :p
20:10:28  <andythenorth> I have a local list :P
20:10:30  <andythenorth> not done
20:10:57  <andythenorth> but done enough for v3 nearly :D
20:11:13  <andythenorth> not sure how many more economies I’ll add
20:12:39  <Alberth> it ends at 128 industries, I guess
20:12:59  <andythenorth> likely
20:13:45  <andythenorth> I want to do a Pacific Northwest economy
20:13:47  <Alberth> but you may run out of different look & feel before
20:13:52  <andythenorth> and rework Extreme
20:14:04  <andythenorth> I had ideas about Japan, and maybe an ‘Urban’ economy
20:14:12  <andythenorth> coffee -> coffee shop
20:14:21  <andythenorth> tablets -> electronics shop :P
20:14:22  <Alberth> yep, extreme needs more indsutries, obviously
20:14:30  <andythenorth> I think urban might suck to play :P
20:14:52  <andythenorth> extreme breaks my head
20:14:53  <Alberth> nice for those mega-cities people
20:15:08  <andythenorth> I think I might allow someone else to invent Urban
20:15:17  <Alberth> relabel to "hysteric accident"
20:15:19  <andythenorth> and Japan, it’s only adding rice that appeals
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20:15:30  <Alberth> and tea :p
20:15:38  <andythenorth> hmm, tea
20:15:39  <andythenorth> india
20:15:58  <andythenorth> I had an idea about australia and exporting, but it overlaps IAHC
20:16:28  <Alberth> didn't play that since the rename, I think
20:16:35  <andythenorth> it’s ok
20:18:19  <Alberth> in india you need wagons with people on top of the roof :p
20:19:09  <Alberth> japan set has no industries?
20:20:01  <andythenorth> not sure
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20:20:55  <andythenorth>
20:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you should mark all newgrfs incompatible that you did not write yourself!!
20:23:31  <frosch123> india needs durian farm
20:23:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I wanted to reserve a range of grfids
20:24:04  <andythenorth> where do I apply? :|
20:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> last i heard the CA?? range was up for grabs :p
20:27:11  <andythenorth> I’ll need a warranty
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20:29:09  <frosch123> is firs3 incompatible with firs2?
20:30:07  <andythenorth> yes
20:30:46  <frosch123> i thought it was obvious to forget that check :)
20:30:47  <andythenorth>
20:30:51  <andythenorth> I nearly forgot :P
20:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's really a non-issue if you just keep the grfid
20:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and just increase the minimum compatible version in the A14
20:31:27  <andythenorth> then I can’t have both versions on Bananaramas
20:31:57  <andythenorth> leaving the old one around appeases those who hate the changes
20:31:58  <andythenorth> maybe
20:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should have different GRFIDs for "release" and "development" :p
20:32:06  <andythenorth> also I need a grfid for “Preindustrial era houses”
20:32:18  <andythenorth> and “Oil rig layout"
20:32:21  <andythenorth> whatever they are
20:32:24  <andythenorth> apparently incompatible
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20:41:40  <Wolf01> Mmmh I was training for couple lego speedbuild, but alone is not the same :P
20:42:40  <supermop_> the house one does something with coal
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22:21:02  <SpComb> I've updated the code for these again, it's now also available as a Docker image:
22:21:16  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: ^ I think I remember you trying to get that running once
22:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> I don't think so
22:24:12  <SpComb> 11:16:45  * peter1138 fails at getting SpComb's pngtile to... well, do anything :s
22:24:41  <SpComb> 21:08:34 < Eddi|zuHause> yorick: SpComb had a "pngtile" project
22:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not "me trying to get it to run"
22:25:13  <Wolf01> Oh shit, scrollable ottd pictures
22:25:52  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: april 2011 :(
22:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: I mean, sure, i am appreciating the effort :)
22:26:16  <Wolf01> Thats like last ice age
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23:06:05  <supermop_> man i wasted the whole day
23:09:48  <SpComb> I've been hacking away at pngtile for about 15h straight today, feelsgood
23:18:22  <Wolf01> <supermop_> man i wasted the whole day <- better than 2 whole years
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