Log for #openttd on 1st August 2017:
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09:03:23  <Wolf01> o/
09:03:36  <Arveen2> \o
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09:12:20  <Wolf01> o/
09:12:49  <andythenorth_> Hi wolf
09:13:44  * andythenorth_ thinking about groundtypes
09:14:03  <andythenorth_> might be annoying to use
09:14:42  <andythenorth_> for example overbuilding tram on multiple ground types
09:14:43  <peter1138> underground types
09:14:48  <peter1138> 3d map array
09:14:53  <Wolf01> I have been thinking for 2 days how to refactor the vehicle movement code
09:14:56  <andythenorth_> lawks
09:15:00  <peter1138> larks
09:15:05  <peter1138> rewrite
09:15:07  <andythenorth_> 3D vehicle movement
09:15:18  <Wolf01> And put it into external resources
09:15:33  <andythenorth_> peter1138 something needs shaking up eh?
09:15:44  <andythenorth_> NewBugs
09:21:40  <andythenorth_> Wolf01 what's the unsolvable thing for NRT? Trolleybus on town roads?
09:22:03  <Wolf01> No, that's easily solvable
09:22:15  <andythenorth_> How?
09:22:39  <Wolf01> Just change it so you can convert city owned roads
09:23:52  <Wolf01> The worst thing is the ability to tell what has the catenary, if road or tramway
09:23:57  <andythenorth_> to arbitrary roadtypes?
09:24:10  <andythenorth_> Or using some compatibility graph?
09:24:22  <Wolf01> It would be cool to have some compatibility graph
09:24:32  <andythenorth_> having two types of catenary is dumb
09:24:43  <andythenorth_> There should just be one type
09:24:48  <andythenorth_> It's a game
09:25:08  <andythenorth_> But then we can't use label-based vehicle compatibility
09:25:18  <Wolf01> BTW, you can't even make town roads as one way right now
09:25:20  <andythenorth_> Have to have a catenary bool
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09:25:46  <Wolf01> o/
09:25:50  <Alberth> o/
09:25:55  <andythenorth_> Lo alberth
09:26:14  <andythenorth_> Is everyone on holidays? Or slow time at work?
09:26:17  <Wolf01> The catenary bool was a great idea
09:26:38  <andythenorth_> was it? :)
09:26:51  <andythenorth_> but then labels don't determine power
09:28:01  <Wolf01> I fail to see the downsides... ROAD and ELRD vs ROAD+catenary
09:28:10  <V453000> hello gentlemen
09:28:13  <V453000> I shit brix
09:28:18  <Wolf01> Hello sluglord
09:28:37  <andythenorth_> downside is it doesn't work like railtypes
09:28:47  <andythenorth_> lo V
09:28:53  <andythenorth_> such textures
09:28:56  <Wolf01> That's the problem, road isn't rail
09:29:04  <V453000> need moar
09:29:08  <V453000> hand painting my ass
09:30:14  <andythenorth_> I have child #1 drawing pixels now
09:30:23  <V453000> automation
09:30:27  <andythenorth_> Pixelmator on ios
09:30:43  <andythenorth_> need apple m pencil
09:31:49  <V453000> I was actually considering buying an ipad for drawing in subway
09:31:58  <V453000> but the pencil is utterly puny when compared to wacom's pen
09:32:05  <andythenorth_> haven't tried pencil
09:32:19  <Wolf01> Just buy a surface
09:32:26  <andythenorth_> Ipad pro genuinely good hardware
09:32:29  <andythenorth_> But
09:32:34  <V453000> fun part, I am still considering bying an ipad for drawing in subway since I don't dare carrying my 2k euro tablet in subway...
09:32:37  <andythenorth_> Ios still sucks balls
09:32:49  <V453000> yeah ios = no full photoshop
09:32:51  <V453000> = the fuck
09:34:13  <andythenorth_> Photoshop will die
09:34:20  <andythenorth_> Affinity will kill it
09:34:28  <Wolf01> Uhm, there's the lenovo yoga, but I don't know if it supports pens
09:34:45  <V453000> is SF the critical person to do the killing blow? :D
09:35:21  <andythenorth_> biab
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09:45:49  <andythenorth_> anyone used the CargoSprinter thing in Iron Horse?
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09:59:30  <Alberth> pax thingie, isn't it?
09:59:40  <Alberth> I think I used it a few times
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10:00:20  <Alberth> but I never build serious pax networks :p
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10:18:51  <Wolf01> I forgot how github works...
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10:22:08  <Alberth> it's a website, just click on buttons :p
10:22:41  <Wolf01> It's not user friendly... and local git says "Error encountered while pushing to the remote repository: Not a valid reference 'origin/master'"
10:22:58  <Wolf01> But I've just updated that
10:23:14  <Alberth> git isn't friendly indeed
10:23:41  <Alberth> you're on the local master, and not origin/master ?
10:23:51  <Wolf01> Local master
10:23:55  <Alberth> ie not trying to push origin/master?
10:24:02  <Wolf01> I'm trying to sync it with OTTD/master
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10:25:15  <Alberth> you fetch wit a repo, not with a branch, although you can select a branch to update, perhaps
10:25:22  <Alberth> s/with/from/
10:25:40  <Alberth> at least, it sounds like you do    git fetch origin/master
10:25:55  <Alkel_U3> but git is really easy
10:27:01  <Alberth> it's horrible that people don't just refuse this kind of crap :(
10:29:32  <Alberth> option to pull a branch doesn't even exist, you simply get all updates, I think
10:30:11  <Alberth> ie git fetch origin
10:33:46  <Wolf01> BTW, to sync my origin with OTTD, base(mine)...head(OTTD) or the contrary? Because it was too difficult to write "merge X into Y" like I have on the desktop client...
10:35:47  <__ln__> what do you mean "option to pull a branch doesn't even exist"
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10:42:13  <Alberth> git-fetch(1)  doesn't have an option to specify a branch
10:42:27  <Alberth> s/have/list/
10:42:45  <__ln__> why don't you pull instead of fetch
10:44:04  <Alberth> "... git pull is shorthand for git fetch followed by git merge FETCH_HEAD"
10:44:28  <Alberth> and I usually don't want to do that merge and only that merge
10:44:32  <Wolf01> I always synced every branch alone
10:45:08  <Alberth> but since it does  git fetch, you still can't get changes of just 1 branch, as far as I can see
10:45:40  <Alberth> Wolf01:  pulling in new commits, and merging commits in your version are 2 different steps
10:46:11  <Alberth> former gets everything new from remote, as far as I can see, latter must be done 1 branch at a time
10:47:01  <Alberth> likely, you try to pull new updates every time, which takes some network traffic, but is otherwise harmless
10:47:22  <Wolf01> No, I mean, I have 4 branches, I pull every branch individually, work/merge/etc, commit&push
10:47:56  <Alberth> so how do you get updates for a single branch with fetch?
10:48:14  <Wolf01> I don't know, I use the UI
10:48:32  <Wolf01> Just right click on the item and "fetch"
10:48:41  <Wolf01> Or directly "pull"
10:48:52  <Alberth> so how do you know you don't pull everything the first time?
10:49:22  <Wolf01> Because when I switch to another branch it's not updated
10:49:38  <Alberth> pulling and updating a local branch are 2 different things
10:49:51  <Alberth> maybe the UI confuses things here
10:50:00  <Alberth> but it's not what git does
11:02:05  <blathijs> Actuall, git fetch takes a refspec argument, so I think you can do "git fetch origin some_branch"
11:02:33  <blathijs> Though I think it doesn't use the default fetch storage config, so it only fetches into FETCH_HEAD if you do that I believbe
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11:03:38  <blathijs> Oh, it actually does update the remote-tracking branch, if it exists, according to the git-fetch manpage
11:04:00  <Alberth> that would be logical :)
11:04:32  <blathijs> I often use it to fetch pull requests from github, using git fetch origin pull/123/head, but then it only updates FETCH_HEAD
11:05:42  <Alberth> since 123 branch doesn't exist, I guess
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13:26:56  <supermop_> yo
13:33:38  <Arveen2>
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13:52:54  <Wolf01> Mmmh, should the movement defined by the tile for all vehicles or by the vehicle in that particular tile?
13:53:23  <Wolf01> *should be
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13:57:19  <Wolf01> A) makes easy to define movement for different things, like on different road stops, ramps, roundabouts; B) allow to have vehicles moving in a different way, allowing for example different turn radius based on vehicle lenght
14:04:05  <supermop_> notStateMachines?
14:05:14  <Wolf01> My idea was to put the actual vehicle movement arrays into a grf
14:05:45  <supermop_> i want non loop tram end of lines
14:06:20  <supermop_> or single track you so you can force trams to go around a loop in the same direction
14:07:17  <Wolf01> I want to make vehicles always overtake on one way roads
14:07:17  <supermop_> but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own
14:14:53  <supermop_> so basically what i need instead is an n-scale model tramway on my desk
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14:16:09  <andythenorth_> Wolf01
14:16:23  <andythenorth_> did you sort the repo sync?
14:16:28  <Wolf01> Yeah
14:16:37  <andythenorth_> pull ottd/master
14:16:41  <andythenorth_> merge, push
14:16:47  <Wolf01> I made a direct link now, so next time I should just make a pull request from that one
14:17:26  <Wolf01> Stupid cross repo merge UI
14:18:06  <andythenorth_> I use shell :p
14:18:21  <andythenorth_> I can't imagine using a git UI
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14:23:21  <andythenorth_> anyone ever use narrow gauge in Iron Horse?
14:23:46  <Wolf01> I only use rail/elrl :P
14:24:02  <Wolf01> Not even mono or maglev
14:27:44  <supermop_> i do to look pretty
14:28:07  <supermop_> and in that one switchback game i posted on here from years back
14:28:29  <supermop_> NG passenger service is rarely sensible
14:28:59  <supermop_> i sometimes used it to save money in early games
14:33:33  <Wolf01> <supermop_> but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own <- basically you want a sort of wye
14:34:47  <andythenorth_> depot :p
14:34:59  <andythenorth_> infinite length wye
14:35:33  <andythenorth_> supermop_: so I should delete NG? o_O
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14:42:17  <Wolf01> Mmmh, reimplement tram EOL loop as zigzag
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15:12:35  <Wolf01> Quak
15:13:16  <frosch123> moi
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16:22:03  <supermop_> Wolf01: not quite a wye
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16:24:37  <supermop_>
16:24:46  <supermop_> like the crossover at upper left
16:25:25  <Wolf01> Yeah
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16:29:45  <supermop_> i guess i could actually code all these roads now
16:30:53  <supermop_> i no longer have the rendering plug in i used for those however
16:31:05  <supermop_> would need to redo all the textures for vray
16:31:33  <andythenorth_> i guess I should keep narrow gauge eh?
16:31:46  <supermop_> andythenorth_: it looks pretty
16:33:06  <andythenorth_> logically, it would be better done as light rail in road hog
16:33:35  <andythenorth_> at least for this roster in IH, where NG is not important
16:34:43  <andythenorth_> maybe when I have laptop I can do something for NRT
16:34:57  <andythenorth_> to aid finishing it
16:36:03  <andythenorth_> frosch123 with groundtypes, how would tram reverse loops be built?
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16:43:43  <supermop_> by original plan was to draw the U loops at end of line as N crossovers
16:43:55  <supermop_> and let the trams look stupid when using them
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16:55:42  * andythenorth_ wonders how the bits get in the tile
17:02:01  <Wolf01> Single tram track in the middle of the road?
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17:04:55  <supermop_> single track tram in middle of airport runway
17:05:13  <supermop_> helipad in middle of log flume
17:05:35  <supermop_> runway in middle of subway
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17:31:20  <frosch123> andythenorth_: what is special about tram reverse loops?
17:31:37  <frosch123> why/what should be different?
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17:35:14  <Wolf01> He is worried about identifying the *type
17:35:24  <andythenorth_> if tram is built with road, then it will be tricky to add reverse loops where the road needs to continue
17:35:41  <andythenorth_> a unified building tool makes that impossible
17:36:00  <Wolf01> You continue with building just the road?
17:36:09  <andythenorth_> the tram bits and road bits are same
17:36:12  <frosch123> since when are tram and road built together?
17:36:23  <andythenorth_> assuming groundtypes
17:36:38  <frosch123> groundtypes does not change the gameplay
17:36:45  <andythenorth_> only one groundtype per tile
17:36:47  <Wolf01> I don't think bits will be touched
17:36:51  <frosch123> it's just shuffles who provides which graphics
17:38:04  <andythenorth_> so what's the UI sequence (clicks) for adding say TRAM to say cobble road?
17:38:34  <frosch123> btw. there is yet a third option: allow 100 road types, 100 tram types, but only allow 256 combinations of road/tram type in a single game
17:38:51  <andythenorth_> if I lose connection I'll rejoin btw :p
17:38:54  <frosch123> andythenorth_: same as now? select tram, add tram
17:39:21  <andythenorth_> which type of tram?
17:39:31  <andythenorth_> provided by which grf?
17:39:56  <frosch123> the tram that is built is not necessarily the tram you selected
17:40:10  <andythenorth_> likely I've misunderstood groundtypes proposal :)
17:40:14  <andythenorth_> and UI
17:40:18  <frosch123> like already today: adding unelectrified trackbits to electrified track keeps it electrified
17:40:24  <Wolf01> I still have one question: if the grf author has both tramway with catenary and trolleybus, and defines sprites for ROAD+ELRL and ELRD+RAIL, what does it change from now?
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17:41:10  <frosch123> Wolf01: all sprites on a tile are provided by a single grf, so the grf has full control to make the appearance unique
17:41:46  <Wolf01> And if I want to install one grfs with only roadtypes and one with tramtypes?
17:41:52  <frosch123> with separate road and tram grfs we always make one draw/win over the other
17:41:54  <Wolf01> Rekt?
17:42:27  <frosch123> tbh i don't see much tramtypes happen
17:44:18  <frosch123> wrt. compatibility i do not expect more than 4 roadtypes and 3 tramtypes, but i expect tons of visual options which do not affect compatibility at all
17:44:35  <andythenorth_> groundtypes would be built similar to objects?
17:45:32  <andythenorth_> so I might have a window with 'cobble road', 'cobble road with catenary', 'cobble road with tram', cobble road with tram and catenary'?
17:46:05  <andythenorth_> ah but they're all on egroundtype
17:46:49  <andythenorth_> so for reverse loop I just choose a different variant of same groundtype
17:47:14  <Wolf01> I had a weird idea, also, remove tramtypes at all, have 30 roadtypes which define the graphics for both road and road+tram (tram only uses the current graphics), and you add both rail and catenary as flags
17:47:51  <andythenorth_> somewhat my original hack :D
17:48:23  <frosch123> i don't know depots would behave; but for ordinary tracks i imagine 3 tools: build roadbits (only upgrade ground), build trambits (only upgrade ground), change ground without modifying bits
17:48:39  <frosch123> 3 conversion tools: convert road, convert tram, convert ground
17:48:54  <andythenorth_> we need a UI mockup :)
17:49:02  <andythenorth_> but I am on a phone :p
17:52:03  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I don't understand well how ground should behave (I understood it has some properties which allow or not certain combinations) but there isn't much to mock, the other tools just continue to work like they are now
17:57:22  <andythenorth_> what would be the most awesome thing, as a player?
17:57:39  <Wolf01> Full freedom
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17:58:14  <andythenorth_> nah the UI for that would be unusable ;)
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17:58:37  <frosch123> merging two tiles into a 6 lane road with 2xroad,2xtram,2xroad :p
17:59:23  <andythenorth_> full freedom would imply precise control  over each layer (ground, road, sidewalks etc) :)
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18:00:32  <Wolf01> Which is a combination of NRT and newobjects
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18:01:14  <andythenorth_> frosch123: also clover leaf junctions :p
18:01:30  <frosch123> split before merge :p
18:02:01  <andythenorth_> different lanes
18:02:08  <andythenorth_> blah blah
18:04:04  <andythenorth_> what's the country roads grf?
18:04:09  * andythenorth_ looks
18:07:22  <andythenorth_> mud and sand
18:08:18  <Wolf01> BTW, making *types dynamic would be cool, so you can have 28 roads and 2 trams, with curated graphics so every combination is drawn and approved by the author itself
18:09:37  <Wolf01> And the author decides which combinations won't be possible to have
18:09:48  <andythenorth_> could supermop roadtypes be done with sidewalks overlay?
18:10:03  <supermop_> done as in complete? sure
18:10:15  * andythenorth_ wondering about object-style eye candy layer
18:10:48  <supermop_> sidewalks/benches/trees/lamps/whatever
18:10:49  <frosch123> it's like the trees
18:11:02  <frosch123> just that sidewalks are not toggleable via transparency settings
18:11:20  <Wolf01> A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one?
18:13:34  <andythenorth_> RH provides vehicles and roadtypes in one grf
18:14:45  <andythenorth_> biab, will lose connection now
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20:09:29  <andythenorth_> is it resolved then? :D
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20:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one? <-- all-in-one grfs tend to turn out terrible in the long run... people keep asking "could i have part X without part Y?"
20:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> usually because something new popped up which does Y in a better way
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21:24:51  <andythenorth_> such train lengths
21:25:03  * andythenorth_ figuring out narrow gauge now
21:25:25  <andythenorth_> nearly figured all of v2 Iron Horse :)
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21:27:30  <andythenorth_> wondering if 2/8 is plausible, for wagons
21:28:06  <andythenorth_> it's only 8px in - view
21:28:16  <andythenorth_> might be too small eh
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21:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS 3/16 was the shortest i did
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23:48:43  <Wolf01> 'night
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