Log for #openttd on 8th August 2017:
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09:39:42  <Wolf01> o/
09:40:32  <Alberth> o/
09:43:05  <crem> \o
09:56:46  <Wolf01> mmm I didn't notice it worked the first time I've seen it
10:03:02  <Alberth> :)
10:11:19  <peter1138> what works?
10:11:30  <Wolf01> It's not static
10:11:33  <Alberth> the model, I assumed
10:11:34  <peter1138> ah
10:11:44  <peter1138> well the link works :p
10:11:50  <Alberth> :D
10:12:42  <peter1138> that's neat
10:12:45  <peter1138> is it in ottd yet
10:13:21  <peter1138> i had the ship going up and down but not the water
10:14:49  <Wolf01> I can't understand why it wasn't implemented like TTDP the first time (which is like your patch)
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10:23:33  <peter1138> hmm, went a bit overkill on my router
10:23:41  <peter1138> 256MB memory, 216MB free
10:23:51  <peter1138> 880Mhz quad core CPU, 0% used
10:24:12  <peter1138> ooh got it up to 1%
10:24:28  <Wolf01> Ahah
10:25:55  <Alberth> rounding error :p
10:28:17  <Wolf01> Fuck youtube... I started by watching lego and now I'm again into scientific experiments
10:29:03  <FLHerne> You'd better install an OTTD server on it
10:33:45  <SpComb> peter1138: you must not have a 1gbps connection with 1m state entries
10:34:01  <peter1138> nope, only 80m/20m
10:34:28  <peter1138> although the router is gbit
10:35:42  <__ln__> can it handle a gbit of traffic?
10:36:33  <peter1138> depends on the packet size
10:37:08  <peter1138> yes, if it's "normal packets"
10:37:25  <peter1138> unlikely if it's a flood of tiny packets
10:38:31  <__ln__> does it do routing with CPU or some specialized hardware?
10:39:55  <SpComb> sounds almost like an ER-X
10:41:19  <SpComb> sounds exactly like an ER-X, although it's dual-core with four threads
10:41:38  <peter1138> think it is actually
10:41:41  <peter1138> it's a mikrotik though
10:42:31  <SpComb> probably very similar hardware, just different OS/software
10:43:41  <peter1138> yeah same cpu
10:45:40  <peter1138> thinking about getting a unifi ap
10:46:02  <peter1138> currently just using the old adsl modem/router/ap just for wireless duty
10:48:27  <__ln__> i have an ER Lite
11:15:04  <peter1138> but yeah, because they all respect the GPL just as much as say cisco, netgear, asus, d-link etc... not really able to put ottd on it
11:18:23  <Wolf01> Another topic about changing grfs in scenarios :|
11:20:54  <Wolf01> I vote to make 2 OTTD versions, one for public without any development function and one for grf development already enabled, which is available and signed only for grf developers and closed source, so they wouldn't be able to give it away
11:28:03  <Alkel_U3> want a router that will run OpenTTD? Get a Turris
11:30:03  <Alkel_U3> although it's pretty costly for a router :-)
11:34:36  <peter1138> personally i'd just stick ottd on a computer behind the router :p
11:36:20  <Alkel_U3> that seems to be the most pragmatic solution but not the techno-coolest one :D
11:37:01  <Alkel_U3> well, I'd even say the most practical these days is a rented virtual server
11:37:38  <Alkel_U3> especially for such resource-light game as openttd
11:37:54  <peter1138> tempted to get an hp microserver but the upgrade to xeon is steep
11:39:31  <SpComb> I upgraded to a chieftec 4U rackmount ATX chassis at home... otherwise great, but the separate HDD hotswap chassis (also sold by chieftec) has an horrible built-in nonstandard 80mm fan that you can't swap out without voiding the warranty
11:39:42  <crem> Few years ago I bought something like that from aliexpress. Works suprisingly well to host various game servers, but may be overkill.
11:40:53  <Arveen> am i the only person who has a 42" inch rack in his basement ?
11:40:54  <SpComb> but once I find a 20mm deep 80mm fan and void the warranty on that, then it should all work out as a decently quiet rackmount machine
11:41:03  <Arveen> err 42HE
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11:41:28  <SpComb> I have a wheeled 18U cabinet with a glass door in the corner of the living room
11:41:29  <crem> I do have a rack! but it's empty.  I'd like to have 0 noise PC for something which is always on.
11:41:35  <peter1138> basements not common here :(
11:41:45  <crem> And all servers are too noisy.
11:41:51  <SpComb> silent + rackmount is just diffcult/expensive
11:42:02  <Arveen> yeah, thats why its in my basement heh
11:42:05  <peter1138> rack mount a pi
11:42:16  <peter1138> if it makes a lot of noise, it's probably power hungry too
11:42:18  <SpComb> does someone sell a rackmount rpi case
11:42:25  <peter1138> yes but it's shit
11:42:42  <crem> I also tried fit-pc2, but it was too slow for minecraft server.
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11:43:02  <Arveen> i think there are pi rackmout kits, but its like an 16 slot 2HE case
11:43:05  <crem> rpi is very far from being usable for game servers.
11:43:20  <SpComb> I want something with decent storage... also considered a NUC + external USB3 HDD chassis
11:43:21  <peter1138> it's ok for a normal size ottd game
11:43:41  <peter1138>
11:43:45  <peter1138> something like that should do
11:43:58  <SpComb> not silent
11:44:03  <Arveen> that's a nice machine
11:44:04  <peter1138> nor cheap
11:45:06  <peter1138> dell t20 with xeon were cheap for a while, wish i'd got one
11:45:27  <Arveen> i got all my stuff from work when it got replaced at the data center
11:45:55  <Arveen> so it was rather cheap
11:46:31  <LordAro> Arveen: noice
11:47:01  <Arveen> I am actually trying to get rid of 2 DELL R510 servers which I replaced recently at home
11:47:23  <Arveen> so if anyone wants to buy, they are up for sale
11:48:51  <LordAro> Arveen: specs?
11:49:10  <LordAro> and perhaps more importantly, where from? :p
11:50:01  <Arveen> Germany, near Frankfurt Airport
11:50:59  <LordAro> peter1138: nah, one of these
11:51:56  <Arveen> 2x Xeon L5630 CPUs, i got loads of RAM and SAS/SATA disks laying around so i can put in whatever is needed/wanted
11:52:57  <LordAro> interesting
11:53:27  <LordAro> i might know some people who would be interested, if you can deliver to north england
11:53:37  <LordAro> what sort of price are we talking?
11:55:33  <Arveen> well depends on the actual config but i would say an reasonable to cheap pricing
11:57:19  <LordAro> depends what you think of as reasonable to cheap :p
12:00:23  <Arveen> hehe
12:00:41  <Arveen> you want to use this equipment for an home lab or for business ?
12:01:11  <LordAro> this would be a student society
12:01:20  <LordAro> so kind of inbetween :)
12:04:48  <Alberth> "business"  :p
12:05:10  <Alberth> gaming is a core value :)
12:05:25  <LordAro> haha
12:08:32  <Arveen> well, usually I sell my home lab stuff for current EBay price minus 10% to 20%
12:10:49  <Arveen> im have no idea how expensive the shipping would be
12:11:23  <Arveen> DHL says 45 eur. caugh caugh
12:11:59  <Arveen> you should book a trip to Germany to pick it up - might be cheaper :P
12:12:56  <__ln__> 45€ sounds cheap to me for international shipping
12:13:41  <LordAro> Arveen: hehe
12:13:56  <Arveen> hmm says max. 120 x 60 x 60cm)  - that won't fit
12:14:18  <LordAro> ok, ebay prices look like they'd be a bit on the steep side, but i'll relay info anyway and let you know
12:14:43  <Arveen> aight, cool
12:15:27  <Arveen> right now i am in no rush to sell them. got enough space in my rack :D
12:18:32  <LordAro> :D
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14:06:32  <eekee> (12:15:04) peter1138: but yeah, because they all respect the GPL just as much as say cisco, netgear, asus, d-link etc... not really able to put ottd on it
14:07:03  <eekee> peter1138: what do you mean? i thought the gpl only constrained distribution, not what you do with it yourself
14:09:27  <peter1138> yeah, they don't provide the sources that they should
14:10:55  <eekee> oh you can't compile ottd to run on it?
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14:11:31  <eekee> i hate when that happens
14:13:23  <eekee> brb, going to computer shop
14:19:36  <peter1138> probably could compile it
14:19:48  <peter1138> but it's basically an embedded system. 16MB flash storag.e..
14:20:03  <peter1138> (i was surprised it was so low, but it seems to work :p)
15:20:53  <eekee> ah aye :)
15:21:14  <eekee> autosave could create problems with that little storage
15:21:23  <eekee> i think
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15:30:41  <peter1138> it's not really a problem, it can use microsd or usb storage
15:34:29  <eekee> oh right, cool
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17:08:25  <andythenorth> o/
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17:10:41  <andythenorth> quak also
17:12:11  <Alberth> o/
17:14:04  <frosch123> moi
17:15:32  <andythenorth> now that I figured out the schema and the lengths and everything, do I actually have to draw the grf? o_O
17:15:36  <andythenorth> or can I just project manage?
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17:24:08  <Alberth> "and everything" didn't include pixels I guess?
17:26:48  <andythenorth> I have drawn them in my mind
17:27:00  <andythenorth> the filesystem is just out of compliance
17:31:21  <Alberth> :D
17:31:53  <Alberth> brain-to-fs is non-functional, apparently
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17:42:54  <frosch123> afaik there is no method to remove stalled nfs mounts
17:42:58  <frosch123> we need to reboot andy
17:43:44  <LordAro> umount -f[f] will sometimes work
17:46:10  <andythenorth> my current code assumes only one of each vehicle type per generation
17:46:16  <andythenorth> but I need 2 cabooses (long and short)
17:46:25  <andythenorth> also I have this crazy articulated code
17:46:32  <andythenorth> 3 parts to every vehicle
17:46:37  <andythenorth> I should refactor that :P
17:46:42  <andythenorth> V453000 is it faster?
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17:57:12  <LordAro> frosch123: Alberth: do you recall the last assessment of my std::sort patch?
17:58:24  <frosch123> s/CDECL // ?
17:58:50  <LordAro> ah yeah
17:59:01  <LordAro> globally, or just for these functions?
17:59:19  <frosch123> for these, no idea who else uses them
17:59:22  <supermop_> andythenorth: are you drawing pivoting bogies?
17:59:39  <andythenorth> errr
17:59:41  <andythenorth> no
18:00:35  <LordAro> frosch123: looks like the vast majority are the sorter functions
18:01:12  <frosch123> iirc last time there were issues with some methods returning true for == when reverse-sorting
18:01:44  <LordAro> i believe i fixed that
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18:03:29  <frosch123> line 2214 does not compile
18:03:34  <frosch123> p ->p2
18:03:38  <supermop_> why 3 articulated parts then?
18:04:05  <andythenorth> > 8/8 vehicle sprites
18:04:51  <frosch123> LordAro: ModeSorter is not stable sort
18:05:22  <frosch123> actually, it likely causes infinite loops
18:05:38  <frosch123> (100,200) < (200, 100) < (100, 200)
18:05:53  <LordAro> i wondered whether i broke that one
18:06:06  <LordAro> give sec
18:07:42  <frosch123> TownRatingSorter likely has the same issue
18:08:10  <frosch123> multiplying with +-1 is a XOR, no AND or OR
18:09:00  <frosch123> anyway, i am confused why some methods have flags to inverse sorting, while other do not
18:09:06  <frosch123> is ottd that inconsistent :p
18:10:26  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
18:10:28  <Alberth> likely :p
18:10:42  <frosch123> LordAro: sorry, BinNegator is completely broken
18:10:53  <frosch123> std::sort expects operator<, not operator <=
18:11:00  <Alberth> previous review was at jul 9
18:11:32  <Alberth> sounds familiar :p
18:11:49  <LordAro> haha, yes
18:17:51  <LordAro> oh, have a completely unrelated thing that i made
18:21:17  <frosch123> is that an entry for template horror contest?
18:22:18  <LordAro> it could be
18:23:36  <frosch123> you can improve it with some #define ☢ template
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19:05:32  <V453000> heyo humenz
19:05:44  <frosch123> hi slug
19:06:08  <V453000> omg identified
19:08:40  <andythenorth> isn’t it
19:08:44  <andythenorth> but are you faster now?
19:09:43  <frosch123> depends on the colour of the floor
19:12:42  <V453000>
19:12:43  <V453000> gg
19:12:45  <V453000> next
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19:32:29  <LordAro> frosch123: Alberth: gist updated
19:33:09  <LordAro> i gave up and just rewrote TownRatingSorter, and replaced the BinNegator thing with a std::reverse :)
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19:36:15  <LordAro> MS's own documentation implies CDECL is the default anyway
19:37:23  <frosch123> it's from 32bpp age, so dead in a few years?
19:37:37  <LordAro> heh
19:37:44  <frosch123> or did people invent alternative call convertions for x64 yet?
19:40:51  <LordAro> well, MS did
19:40:56  <frosch123> oh, indeed
19:40:59  <LordAro> don't think anyone else did
19:41:02  <frosch123> <- two again :)
19:41:15  <LordAro> yup, CDECL has been in stdafx.h since r1
19:41:25  <LordAro> so almost certainly redundant
19:48:38  <V453000> well houston we have a fucking problem
19:49:27  <frosch123> mars inhabitable for slugs?
19:49:44  <V453000> I'm still not quite convinced that this is the wrong approach
19:50:19  <frosch123> insane contrast
19:50:51  <LordAro> ha, lol
19:50:56  <V453000> well not everything would stay the same
19:51:03  <LordAro> chromium does not let me view https
19:51:10  <LordAro> because of the revoked startcom cert
19:51:24  <V453000> try with http
19:51:54  <LordAro> just straight up doesn't let me, no "let me in anyway" button at all
19:51:58  <LordAro> V453000: aye, that works
19:52:16  <andythenorth> V453000: what’s wrong with that approach?
19:52:28  <andythenorth> it looks like the aftermath of a forest fire, but otherwise...
19:52:29  <V453000> which one andy?
19:52:34  <V453000> ah the black one
19:52:44  <andythenorth> the black one
19:52:57  <V453000> well I still really like the concept of having (very) desaturated background  to focus things with colour in the picture
19:52:59  <andythenorth> what colour would water be?
19:53:04  <V453000> BLACK AS FUCK
19:53:06  <andythenorth> test it with FIRS
19:53:12  <andythenorth> better industries :P
19:53:35  <V453000> I ran away from the concept because snow was a problem but the ground was rather neutral gray or whiteish
19:53:40  <V453000> here it's not a problem
19:53:47  <andythenorth> snow is over-rated
19:53:53  <andythenorth> what colour would desert be?
19:54:29  <V453000> probably lavaish
19:54:37  <Arveen> potatoes
19:54:38  <V453000> could even be orangey
19:54:40  <V453000> 's fine
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19:55:07  <V453000> the thing is I am planning to do this eventually anyway
19:55:19  <V453000> and now when I kind of have most of the pieces, I started playing with colours again
19:55:26  <LordAro> Arveen: boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew?
19:55:41  <andythenorth> will my black ships show up on your black see? :P
19:55:43  <andythenorth> sea *
19:55:48  <Arveen> would it be possible to put like an RGB selector in the grf options for the tile color ?
19:55:51  <V453000> probably :)
19:56:00  <frosch123> i think the contrast is too harsh
19:56:08  <V453000> frosch the contrast will change
19:56:10  <V453000> the tracks are too bright
19:56:17  <frosch123> ok :)
19:57:06  <andythenorth> it’s a look
19:57:31  <frosch123> well, plain black landscape is likely better than plain white
19:57:47  <andythenorth> there’s not much gained from replicating SF graphics, unless you’re me
19:58:13  <V453000> well, green grass is certainly more consistent with other grfs
19:58:19  <V453000> but I don't really like it that much
19:58:27  <V453000> sure I can desaturate grass but meh
19:59:52  <V453000>
20:00:11  <V453000> trees might actually stay green
20:01:56  <frosch123> did you try brown?
20:02:39  <frosch123> <- that kind of brown
20:03:03  <V453000> brown is an option but I would prefer to reserve that colour for other things
20:03:12  <V453000> like foundations and bulldozed shit
20:03:34  <andythenorth> try violety
20:03:39  <frosch123> you could make bulldozes and rough land black
20:03:42  <andythenorth> like my mini-map colour
20:03:49  <Alkel_U3> sorry to interrupt with non-tycoon matters but I've just been informed there's a game I consider good - namely Pony Island - for free on Humble Bundle and I can't just stand idly by seeing people not go get it
20:03:54  <frosch123> foundations can be grey
20:04:45  <frosch123> Alkel_U3: don't free the devel
20:05:01  <andythenorth> V453000: what was wrong with greige? o_O
20:05:07  <Alkel_U3> frosch123: :D
20:05:09  <andythenorth> greige is awesome and has contrast to white
20:05:15  <frosch123> devil? i guess it's the same
20:05:16  <andythenorth> and light blue
20:05:16  <V453000> greige was too netural
20:05:29  <V453000> neutral
20:05:43  <Alkel_U3> pun not intended? Because it was
20:08:44  <andythenorth> V453000: I sometimes use this
20:09:17  <andythenorth> first roll of the dice: tropic
20:09:19  <V453000> haha
20:09:44  <andythenorth> temperate-with-snow :P
20:09:59  <andythenorth> such?
20:10:57  <andythenorth> anyway, choose happy colours
20:11:04  <andythenorth> SF made all of TTD happy tones
20:11:09  <andythenorth> whereas lomo… :(
20:11:34  <andythenorth> tropic again?
20:12:15  <V453000> can't say I am thrilled about happy colours on the background
20:12:33  <frosch123> don't make it blue :)
20:12:40  <frosch123> blue is one of the most boring colors
20:15:21  <V453000> I'll give it some more thought
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22:41:56  <Wolf01> Nice, I need to update the projects to vs141
22:42:43  <Wolf01> Shit, I installed VS in italian
23:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood why vs didn't "fix" the versioning scheme to use the year... everybody else seems to do that
23:06:38  <Wolf01> It uses the version
23:08:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the version uses the version. how tautological
23:09:19  <Wolf01> What does change between 2015/2017 and 140/141?
23:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know?
23:10:11  <Wolf01> No, I mean is 2017 preferable to 141?
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23:10:58  <LordAro> well one is the version that everyone calls it by
23:11:07  <LordAro> and another is the internal version number
23:11:08  <Wolf01> I would like if 141 can work with 140 projects without trying to update them
23:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is using two numbers that have nothing to do with each other. how does one remember that 14.0 is 2015?
23:12:05  <Wolf01> Who cares?
23:12:15  <Wolf01> They are 2 numbers
23:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> they are two DIFFERENT numbers that refer to the SAME thing
23:12:47  <Wolf01> It doesn't fix the problem that every new version wants to update the project files
23:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's inconsistent
23:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> inconsistent things make conversations needlessly difficult
23:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and who cares about updating? you shouldn't go back and forth between versions?
23:14:01  <Wolf01> Eddi, is like Creator Update which is 1703, in many places you find 1703 instead of CU
23:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and mountain lion is 10.what?
23:14:59  <Wolf01> I care about updating when I open OTTD with a new version and then I have a bunch of files which it wants to commit
23:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: a versioning scheme that is bad doesn't get better if you give examples that are also bad
23:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and don't go talking about debian bouncy/floppy/sluggy
23:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> because you had a funny idea about naming your versions after a movie from 20 years ago and you built a religious following around you still doesn't make your versioning scheme good
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23:23:01  <LordAro> Wolf01: i'd imagine those files should be added to the generator and added to the repo
23:23:42  <Wolf01> I usually wait for those to switch to the new VS version for OTTD
23:25:53  <LordAro> i made another patch queue
23:26:05  <LordAro> fixes all warnings with gcc7.1 & clang4.0
23:29:27  <Wolf01> Oh they made a FALLTHROUGH macro, or you made it?
23:29:36  <LordAro> i made it
23:29:54  <LordAro> making use of the relevant compiler or standard attributes where possible
23:30:36  <Wolf01> Oh, now I found the definition
23:32:11  <Wolf01> -	bfh.type = TO_LE16('MB');
23:32:11  <Wolf01> +	bfh.type = TO_LE16(0x4D42); // 'BM' constant <- isn't it 'MB'?
23:34:00  <LordAro> ...maybe
23:34:57  <LordAro> defintely should be 'BM' constant, as that's what the header of a BMP is
23:35:19  <LordAro> maybe that TO_LE16 is screwing with things
23:36:37  <LordAro> hmm, nope, that doesn't do anything on normal systems
23:36:40  * LordAro fixes
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23:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, but LE is "backwards" anway?
23:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> *any
23:38:12  <LordAro> wait, yeah
23:38:45  <LordAro> it's extra fun because the behaviour of the multicharacter constants is actually implementation defined
23:39:03  <LordAro> (hence the vague attempt at fixing)
23:40:08  <LordAro> i'm reasonable certain it should be 0x4D42
23:41:23  <LordAro> there's actually an irritatingly large number of multicharacter constants in the source anyway, mostly to do with industry codes, afaict
23:41:32  <LordAro> there's no nice way to fix them, either
23:42:02  <LordAro> well, i thought of user defined literals, but you need C++14 for that
23:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the 4-character codes are a combination of ttdp influence and RIFF files
23:43:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you will find them everywhere...
23:44:27  <LordAro> there's not *too* many of them
23:45:03  <LordAro> but there's no easy fix
23:45:23  <LordAro> (that isn't just littering the code with very odd hex values)
23:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but only if you don't consider all the grfs :p
23:45:44  <LordAro> oh, sure, i don't mind them when they're in a file
23:45:51  <LordAro> just not in the cpp files :p
23:47:14  <LordAro> i'd imagine the ones in the grf files are actually read in a defined way
23:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could make a macro that takes a character string, asserts it being length 4, and then composes the characters by | and << operators
23:48:28  <LordAro> can you split a string in a macro?
23:48:36  <LordAro> i'm not aware of a way
23:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> a[0]?
23:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm too far in a python mindset to deal with that kind of c++ shenanigans
23:50:57  <LordAro> hmm, maybe
23:51:05  <LordAro> can't put the assert inside a table definition though
23:51:12  <LordAro> (which is where most of them are)
23:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> can't treat an assert as an expression? (and use the comma operator)
23:53:02  <LordAro> i guess...? but dear lord that's horrible

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