Log for #openttd on 14th August 2017:
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01:12:42  <Wolf01> 'night
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06:18:18  <V453000> the piece of shit dropbox disabled public links even for paying users!
06:18:25  <V453000> that's fucking disgusting
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06:35:12  <peter1138> welcome to the cloud - "somebody else's computer"
06:40:53  <V453000> well if the service is free I expect anything
06:41:10  <V453000> if it's paid, changing the terms and removing important features is just not nice to say the least
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06:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, you're free to cancel the service
06:57:47  <V453000> obviously
06:58:02  <V453000> with 1 year pre-paid plan
07:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> with changes to terms of service you have a special cancel option, even if they don't tell you that
07:02:49  <V453000> well let's see
07:03:00  <V453000> regardless, fuck them is the final outcome of this anyway
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10:32:50  <Thanark_> do I need to set my trains to do something to upgrade them? I selected them to replace just like I did last upgrade but this time nothing is replacing. even fast forwarded months
10:43:34  <Thanark_> figured it out. need to change over to electric railways to build the electric trains
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10:54:11  <Wolf01> Moin
10:57:16  <Wolf01> Woke up and read this: ... I've already got enough for today and want to sleep again
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10:57:33  <andythenorth>
10:57:51  <Wolf01> Yes
10:59:27  <andythenorth> V453000: ^
10:59:36  <andythenorth> there’s an SDK
11:00:35  <V453000> voxel hate still happening
11:00:39  <V453000> sorry :>
11:01:24  <andythenorth> all that is needed is to make voxels look like this
11:01:29  <andythenorth> which is clone of minecraft style
11:01:41  <andythenorth> which is clone of OpenTTD style crossed with Doom
11:02:02  <andythenorth> so we’re back at Simon Foster and the ID guys just invented everything  worth having
11:02:07  <andythenorth> and that is all
11:02:15  <V453000> haha yes
11:02:26  <andythenorth> if I wasn’t busy I’d solve it :P
11:02:44  <V453000> I just really hate that everyone feels like it's easy to make voxels and minecraft does it so let's all do it
11:02:50  <andythenorth> not easy
11:02:54  <andythenorth> like pixels not easy
11:03:00  <V453000> it's not easy to do it right
11:03:05  <V453000> it's easy to make something shitty with it
11:03:32  <andythenorth> such crappy
11:03:42  * andythenorth back to work
11:03:45  <andythenorth> fixing your democracy
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11:09:58  <peter1138> but voxeltycoon looks ok
11:10:11  <peter1138> slopes would be nicer than just cobes though
11:24:33  <Wolf01> I want to shit my lifey fix... I mean, I want to fix my shitty life
11:29:32  <__ln___> Wolf01: sure, some day i will visit venice. i've already been to venice beach, california; does that count?
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11:29:55  <Wolf01> I don't think so :P
11:32:40  <__ln___> what about the Venetian casino in las vegas? been there too.
11:41:37  <Wolf01> It's like going to disneyland :P
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13:34:19  <supermop> yo
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14:26:39  <Alberth> o/
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14:28:04  <Wolf01> o/
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15:19:55  <crem> \o
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16:21:19  <Wolf01> It took me the entire afternoon to clearly understand the adapter pattern... I'm becoming more stupid every day
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16:51:57  <andythenorth> isn’t it?
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17:00:31  <Alberth> o/
17:03:30  <andythenorth> hi
17:12:43  <LordAro> it is
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17:13:41  <Alberth> o/
17:14:16  <Zuu> Hello
17:16:56  <planetmaker> \o
17:22:16  <andythenorth> bbls
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18:07:47  <V453000> how does roadhog save 8bpp? Something in python has to check the palette, right?
18:07:50  <V453000> andythenorth:
18:07:53  <V453000> oh he no here
18:08:38  <frosch123> you mean pixa?
18:09:12  <V453000> there seems to be some putpalette thing
18:09:25  <V453000> yeah in pixa :)
18:14:56  <Wolf01> Quak
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18:30:29  <andythenorth> so eh
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18:32:39  <andythenorth> so how did it used to work?
18:32:46  <andythenorth> I only started playing around 0.6 or so
18:32:55  <andythenorth> and not much in irc until maybe 0.7
18:33:00  * andythenorth hasn’t actually checked versions 
18:33:17  <andythenorth> there were just more people?
18:33:22  <andythenorth> or bigger gaps?
18:33:25  <andythenorth> less intertia?
18:33:33  <andythenorth> lower standards?
18:36:30  <V453000> everything going to shit?
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18:39:15  <andythenorth> everything
18:43:04  <frosch123> in 2007 it would have been easy to just dump everything on github
18:43:24  <frosch123> no bananas and stuff
18:43:28  <andythenorth> o_O
18:44:14  <frosch123> the discussion topic have not really changed since then
18:44:21  <frosch123> that's why the suggestion forum is so boring
18:44:33  <frosch123> just the easy things got done
18:44:41  <andythenorth> we mostly don’t need suggestions imho
18:44:46  <frosch123> and some easy things made other things harder
18:45:13  <andythenorth> classic
18:45:33  <andythenorth> what are the strongest examples of that?
18:45:40  <frosch123> well, some things which were hard back then, would be easier today
18:45:49  <frosch123> like order lists got rewritten like twice?
18:46:10  <frosch123> if we had todays order lists in 2007, we would never got the weird group gui
18:46:55  <andythenorth> the state is remarkably similar to the big commercial app that is the main product my business sells
18:47:13  <andythenorth> round about 2008 we made some architectural decisions which hurt now and make development sometimes glacial
18:47:29  <andythenorth> other things move because we have paying customers :)
18:47:44  <andythenorth> but we are totally blocked in some areas by our choice of user+groups implementation
18:48:30  <andythenorth> other things are slow because we have >5k admin users who are used to things working a certain way
18:48:43  <frosch123> i have it easier at work :) the stuff i work on is mostly based on science and math
18:48:51  <frosch123> so there is a definite right thing to do
18:49:05  <frosch123> if you need to you can dump a subcomponent and rewrite it
18:49:41  <frosch123> you do not need to worry about breaking some esoteric use-case of some users, there is a correct thing to do
18:49:55  <andythenorth> we have that
18:50:00  <andythenorth> and old browsers
18:50:13  <andythenorth> and the need to preserve absolute integrity of data, and all savegames
18:50:22  <andythenorth> ‘savegames’ is perhaps misleading, it’s not games :)
18:50:57  <andythenorth> our customers can end up in court if we make mistakes, or break content
18:51:09  <andythenorth> so innovating is challenging :)
18:51:38  <andythenorth> meanwhile, how about we ask Kamnet to do release announcements? o_O
18:51:53  <frosch123> he wanted to do that two years ago :)
18:52:08  <andythenorth> too busy?
18:52:21  <frosch123> i think he also has twitter access
18:52:47  <andythenorth> is anyone actually in charge here these days? o_O
18:52:53  <andythenorth> or is it some kind of whuffie collective?
18:53:06  <andythenorth>
18:53:21  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Going by chat lines I would guess you :p
18:53:27  <andythenorth> absolutely not
18:53:34  <andythenorth> I would be the worst BDFL ever
18:53:54  <andythenorth> but I would be quite happy to go around FS etc saying ‘no’ to things
18:54:18  <andythenorth> I think the current goals are pretty clear and solid
18:54:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: for a start, there is noone to maintain the compile farm
18:54:58  <frosch123> i keeps on building binaries for deprecated distributions
18:55:04  <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of various web infrastructure eh?
18:55:08  <andythenorth> for a small group
18:55:53  <frosch123> it wasn't that small in the past
18:56:08  <frosch123> i think in 2008 there were > 10 active developers
18:56:24  <frosch123> most of them students
18:56:31  <andythenorth> classic
18:56:33  <Shoshonite> and now?
18:56:35  <andythenorth> oh we talked about this before
18:56:43  <andythenorth> Shoshonite: ~1
18:56:59  <Wolf01> <Shoshonite> and now? <- I can count them in one hand
18:57:02  <frosch123> Shoshonite: i think lordaro may be the only student in this channel who can code
18:57:23  <andythenorth> either they are doing other projects, or GFC drove them away from open source
18:57:33  <andythenorth> or we caught a wave who could remember original TTD from 1994
18:57:34  <Alberth> except no longer student :p
18:58:45  <Shoshonite> the implication being non-students have no time to code? I know I don't, or ability for that matter
18:59:07  * andythenorth wonders if the students also are working more now
18:59:09  <andythenorth> dunno
18:59:29  <andythenorth> I was looking at this today
18:59:36  <andythenorth> “Patches: Historically we encouraged people to submit patches to the ticket collector. These tickets are usually ignored forever. "
18:59:39  <frosch123> Shoshonite: i started on ottd because i couldn't stand working all day on my thesis
18:59:45  <Wolf01> In Italy sure they are working more... evil students stealing my job
18:59:46  <andythenorth> sounds like familiar territory ^^ :D
18:59:52  <frosch123> so, thesis in the morning, ottd in the afternoon, irc in the evening
19:00:12  <frosch123> oh yeah, i were coding off-line and only came for patch review :o
19:00:35  <andythenorth> probably quite a focussed way to do it eh
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19:01:20  <andythenorth> Plone added a lot of bureacracy for improvements
19:01:24  <frosch123> after that i think i had a pretty constant though possibly low commit rate, until factorio appeared :p
19:01:26  <andythenorth> but then people rely on it to make money
19:02:01  <andythenorth> also frosch123 you added ~all the newgrf features I wanted :P
19:02:05  <andythenorth> there’s few ponies left
19:02:14  <Wolf01> Like NRT
19:02:21  <andythenorth> NRT is more than a pony :)
19:02:39  <andythenorth> NRT is a test of how we can change a core game mechanic :)
19:02:40  <Wolf01> Yeah, that's in andy's patchpack
19:02:44  <andythenorth> will we win, or will we fuck up>?
19:03:02  <frosch123> i always liked patchpacks
19:03:08  <Wolf01> It doesn't change anything that hasn't been changed before with railtypes
19:03:17  <andythenorth> I wondered about encouraging a fork or something
19:03:25  <frosch123> 15 years ago i played a lot with povray
19:03:30  <andythenorth> but then….fragmentation
19:03:37  <frosch123> there was this inofficial version "megapov"
19:03:56  <frosch123> which had all kind of weird features. forums talked a lot about them
19:04:19  <frosch123> me and my friend always wondered why they did not make it into the main povray
19:04:26  <frosch123> until we actually tried them out
19:04:43  <frosch123> wow, did they have lots of corner cases and downsided...
19:05:00  <andythenorth> the Bootstrap CSS framework has a really strong approach on contributions
19:05:01  <andythenorth>
19:05:09  <andythenorth> (and a few comments down mdo comments again)
19:07:08  <andythenorth> “We don't aim to solve every problem—doing so would just add bloat to the framework for tons of other folks. I'm generally super hesitant to add anything these days only because there is already so much here.
19:07:08  <andythenorth> These kind of extensions are great add-ons to put in another repo on GitHub. Tell folks about, get feedback, gauge usage, and extend Bootstrap. We love that stuff.”
19:08:26  <frosch123> yep, my opinion on ottd is pretty much: the main branch is only for add-on apis
19:08:42  <frosch123> except that we have noone interested in ai and gs stuff :p
19:09:19  <andythenorth> if I _did_ do a patch pack, it would be a fork-and-dump
19:09:23  <andythenorth> I’d delete a bunch of things :P
19:09:33  <andythenorth> not going to find many internet fans with that approach
19:09:52  * andythenorth also has small problem of not being actual programmer
19:10:03  <peter1138> hi
19:10:06  <frosch123> oh, there were teenagers on the forums in the past: they claimed to first delete all of newgrf
19:10:21  <andythenorth> ? o_O
19:10:51  <frosch123> well, just the type of teenager who annuonce their big plans before coding one line
19:10:57  <andythenorth> ha
19:11:05  <frosch123> nothing wrong with that, just teenager stuff
19:11:08  <andythenorth> been there, done that
19:11:16  <andythenorth> lo peter1138
19:12:48  <milek7> gs api is too limited for any bigger modifications
19:13:27  <andythenorth> well then it’s c++, easy no :)
19:14:13  <frosch123> ottd does not have that engine <-> mod separation as modern games have
19:14:39  <frosch123> in modern games the main game itself is implemented with the same interfaces as for the mods
19:15:09  <frosch123> in ottd stuff has always been asymmetric: there is a base game in c++, and gs/ai/newgrf which modify that stuff in a completely different way
19:15:25  <andythenorth> eh well, migrating OpenTTD to that model would be....interesting
19:15:29  <andythenorth> also...challenging
19:15:30  <frosch123> which makes the add-ons very hard if they work against the c++ base
19:15:49  * andythenorth doesn’t play games
19:16:04  <andythenorth> how do games ensure MP safety with mods?
19:16:12  <frosch123> they don't :p
19:16:23  <andythenorth> also, based on my limited exposure to minecraft mods, they are broadly buggy as
19:16:31  <frosch123> factorio has a special section for desyncs with mods
19:16:39  <frosch123> *bug tracker section
19:16:50  <andythenorth> right
19:17:06  <andythenorth> hmm
19:17:26  <frosch123> other complex games like europa universalis 4 desync all the time
19:17:56  <frosch123> you can even tell by how the gui behaves in single player what is likely to cause desyncs
19:18:40  <frosch123> like there were exploits where you can do stuff by using a fast-clicker, which you were not allowed otherwise
19:18:59  <andythenorth> ok so seems there’s no obvious winning strategy here
19:18:59  <andythenorth> we found one winning strategy in my day job
19:18:59  <andythenorth> - make it as fast as possible to get new developers productive
19:19:09  <andythenorth> we focussed a lot of effort on that
19:19:12  <andythenorth> still haven’t won it
19:19:26  <frosch123> like: normally you are only allowed to press a button once, and then it is disabled for 5 minutes. if you could click fast enough (with an autoclicker) you could click it mutliple times and get multiple time the effect, before it disabled the button
19:20:34  <milek7> andythenorth: well, patching is much easier than working around limitations in gs api
19:21:05  <milek7> but then users cannot just download gs from bananas
19:22:20  <Alberth> patching should extend gs api, in that case,imho
19:22:45  <frosch123> Alberth: that only works if you do not fight ottd's core mechanics
19:23:12  <Alberth> and you don't have that in c++ ?
19:23:17  <frosch123> most gs want to remove city and station rating, which is just a very core mechanic of ottd
19:24:02  <andythenorth> most GS seem pretty uninspired
19:24:42  <Alberth> there isn't much power in gs, like milek says
19:25:00  <Alberth> pretty much NoAI + some extensions
19:25:19  * andythenorth can’t tell if we have a social problem, or an architecture problem :)
19:26:02  <andythenorth> but there are 147 patches in FS
19:26:06  <andythenorth>
19:26:33  <andythenorth> I am pretty happy just closing feature requests, especially if they conflict with published goals
19:26:38  <andythenorth> closing patches…dunno
19:26:50  <_dp_> town growth is pretty much the only "something else" in GS
19:27:05  <andythenorth> well there’s no control over industry
19:27:06  <andythenorth> or vehicles
19:27:07  <_dp_> that's probably why there are 10 cb GS and nearly nothing more
19:27:08  <andythenorth> so eh
19:27:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: did you play and of the cb gs? :p
19:28:01  <Alberth> 146 :p
19:28:25  <frosch123> i only played ncg and sv. all cb gs appeared incredible boring, just like the competitive servers
19:28:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: so yeah, it's a social problem
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19:31:25  <_dp_> frosch123, boring? why?
19:31:50  <_dp_> when I'm playing cb it's very intense
19:32:32  <frosch123> well, i said multiple times. there multiple interest groups around ottd. the competitive guys are those i understand the least :)
19:32:43  <_dp_> xD
19:33:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried city-builders a couple of times, but boring as all hell
19:33:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: gs feature requests are dominated by competitive players and citybuilders :)
19:34:10  <andythenorth> timetable feature requests are dominated by people making model train sets
19:34:31  <frosch123> the patches are as boring as the gameplay they are intended for
19:34:34  <_dp_> frosch123, ofc they are, you can't just go with a suggestions gs like BB on a competitive server
19:35:08  <_dp_> it needs to have some influence over the gameplay
19:35:38  <frosch123> why don't you just play starcraft :p
19:35:43  <andythenorth> only 145 patches left :)
19:35:56  <_dp_> are there trains in starcraft?)
19:36:02  <_dp_> i like trains :p
19:36:33  <andythenorth> _dp_ I don’t think it’s an argument that cb shouldn’t exist :)
19:37:04  <frosch123> factorio doesn't have competitive multiplayer
19:37:13  <frosch123> instead they go for competitive speedruns
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19:37:24  <Wolf01> It does, you can organize players in forces
19:37:28  <andythenorth> a lot of the MP stuff in FS I feel really lost with :)
19:37:33  <andythenorth> I just don’t know enough
19:37:34  <Wolf01> Turrets attack other forces
19:37:38  <frosch123> which looks insane if you see it first. but would be incredible boring to me
19:37:40  <_dp_> competitive openttd isn't that much different from a speedrun
19:38:04  <frosch123> _dp_: do compeitive ottd players repeat building the same network on the same map
19:38:09  <frosch123> just trying to beat the previous time?
19:38:12  <Wolf01> OTTD is a speedrun anyway
19:38:28  <andythenorth> speedrun = Doom for me
19:38:38  <andythenorth> what’s a speedrun in OTTD context? o_O :P
19:38:41  <_dp_> frosch123, not exactly the same but overall strategy is so refined that it usually stays the same
19:38:55  <_dp_> what to transport, when and on what distance
19:39:01  <peter1138> and i just build stuff while trying to make it look nice :p
19:39:07  <andythenorth> +1
19:39:15  <frosch123> well, factorio speed runs are about palying the exact same map, and memorizing the building plan of two hours
19:39:23  <frosch123> and not mess up by putting something off by one tile
19:39:24  <andythenorth> in fact, I make things look ugly just to troll coop
19:40:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess speed runs in ottd fail because the player actions affect the random seed and then change the game progression
19:40:26  <_dp_> frosch123, I though about letting players replay same maps in openttd, but it's not that important since map doesn't matter much
19:40:42  <andythenorth> actually my 7 year old has asked us to put the game seed back in map gen window :P
19:40:51  <andythenorth> he seems to have learnt about seeds from minecraft or something
19:40:55  <frosch123> but if you disable all random production changes and industry spanws, you can make a ottd speed run by playing a fixed map and trying to reach 1M pounds in the fastest time
19:41:28  <V453000> do you even automate
19:41:31  <frosch123> people will try to figure out the best order in which to build routes and repeat that over again
19:41:57  <frosch123> V453000: can you imagine building the exact same factorio factory twice?
19:42:13  <andythenorth> what if…?
19:42:26  <andythenorth> 1. ...what if we moved it all to github and pull requests?
19:42:40  <andythenorth> 2. ….what if we just rejected all patches not touched for 12 months?
19:42:41  <_dp_> frosch123, don't think production is enough, there is way too much random in openttd
19:42:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use the seed on the console
19:42:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: saw that in a FS today :)
19:43:03  <V453000> yeah speedrunners do it, now they even gave it a cherry on top by literally blueprinting the whole factory in 1 blueprint and slapping it down at the beginning ... then it's just like a colouring book
19:43:04  <andythenorth>
19:43:22  <Alberth> vs2012 still a relevant thing?
19:43:33  <andythenorth> deprecate old crap :P
19:44:06  <frosch123> V453000: oh, that sounds like there should be a group talking about the good old times where you had to remember the layout
19:44:46  <V453000> eh not entirely, both approaches are quite dumb
19:44:56  <frosch123> Alberth: no idea what the compile farm runs
19:44:57  <V453000> but the newer just makes sure it's dumb
19:44:59  <frosch123> could be 2012
19:45:03  <Alberth> ok
19:45:21  <_dp_> btw, there is actially a bit of an issue with cb in openttd that town growth is so random that you get about +-10% population for the same growth speed even with a good layouts
19:45:29  <andythenorth> one goal I would change, if I was BDFL
19:45:35  <V453000> I don't really see why would you even try to build the factory youself, you can just make a script which does it for you, and just invent the strategy for the script
19:45:49  <andythenorth> addendum to support for minor platforms: not for dead ones
19:46:03  <andythenorth> I know it’s economically discriminatory
19:46:28  * andythenorth checks his privilege
19:46:41  <frosch123> V453000: i like the coloring-book analogy
19:46:53  <andythenorth> is it mindfulness colouring?
19:47:53  <V453000> yeah, no
19:48:19  <V453000> of course you have to think about some stuff like do I have XY yet, but yeah
19:48:36  <V453000> still there is something to the execution, like if you get the 4th mining drill before or after 19479th transport belt, but ...
19:48:47  <V453000> iterating it with AI would be so much simpler and better result
19:48:59  <andythenorth> this is the most bonkers FS I left open
19:49:00  <V453000> if computers can do something better then they should do it
19:49:09  <andythenorth> does it have the record for comment counts?
19:49:17  <milek7> some time ago i made "city-network builder" gs
19:49:23  <milek7> which tried to compute town growth on basis of metric estimating how well-connected it is with other towns
19:49:33  <andythenorth> neat ikdea
19:49:35  <Wolf01> <- we already fucked up on this one
19:49:36  <andythenorth> -k
19:49:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ?
19:50:02  <Wolf01> In contrast, extending or altering the gameplay of the base game is not encouraged.
19:51:38  <frosch123> Wolf01: i wrote that only this year, so it's mostly my opinion. but noone complained when i posted it here
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19:52:25  <andythenorth> it’s pretty sound imho
19:52:45  <Alberth> there are a few nice patches in there
19:53:57  <andythenorth> quite a few seemed like they met the goals
19:54:04  <andythenorth> dunno if the patches are crap or not though
19:54:08  <_dp_> then why do even need a clone of a game? if you want a base game play a base game
19:54:50  <andythenorth> no newgrf in base game :D
19:55:12  <andythenorth> tbf, many other things missing too :)
19:55:16  <frosch123> the original game was already unplayable when i tried last in 2010(?)
19:55:17  <V453000> one thing I saw on novapolis or where ever that was really nice were the extra tile highlights like for station catchment areas etc
19:55:21  <LordAro> frosch123: i am no longer a student :)
19:55:29  <frosch123> the interface did not stand the time
19:55:29  <LordAro> graduated a month ago :)
19:55:32  <_dp_> V453000, still in citymania client ;)
19:55:38  <V453000> ye
19:55:40  <frosch123> LordAro: nice :)
19:55:41  <V453000> I probably saw it in both
19:56:04  <frosch123> V453000: yes, they are on my todo list, but meh
19:56:15  <andythenorth> I liked this one
19:56:23  <_dp_> they kinda poorly implemented though
19:56:25  <frosch123> none of the patches convinced me, so i probably have to do it myself
19:56:45  <V453000> :D
19:56:46  <V453000> well
19:57:16  <V453000> if someone gave me new brix sprites I probably wouldn't add them either
19:57:47  <Alberth> wait until you meet your future self :p
19:57:58  <frosch123> he, yeah, that's the nice thing about decentral stuff :) just fork your own stuff
19:58:09  <LordAro> andythenorth liked a bug report? :o
19:58:29  <Alberth> patch :)
19:58:45  <andythenorth> if we closed all patch tickets that haven’t been edited for 5 years
19:58:48  <andythenorth> 62 would be gone
19:58:50  * andythenorth is tempted
19:59:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: i remember trolling the forums by telling them that voting on fs it to vote for closure
19:59:19  <frosch123> s/closure/reject/
19:59:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: some of them are in patchpacks
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20:00:06  <andythenorth> if the patch queue was kept very small, there might be more fun in reviewing, because the game is to keep it small
20:00:27  <andythenorth> also, on balance many people appreciate at least an answer even if it’s ‘no’
20:00:34  <andythenorth> silence is demotivating
20:01:15  <frosch123> well, most patches fail on basic stuff like indenting
20:01:23  <frosch123> it''s hopeless to explain that to people
20:01:43  <andythenorth> ach, I’m going to close 62
20:01:44  <frosch123> when i reviewed a patch, it usually ended up with rewriting it
20:01:48  <andythenorth> it can’t be worse than current
20:01:54  <andythenorth> how much more offense can I cause?
20:02:01  <andythenorth> and you can all blame me if kittens die :P
20:02:16  <frosch123> would be interesting if cirdan complains :)
20:02:35  <andythenorth> I’ll check them first in case I’m being really stupid
20:02:37  <frosch123> they ignored my patch for 10 years and then closed it because of statistics
20:03:12  <andythenorth> High sea level?
20:03:45  <Wolf01>  <frosch123> it''s hopeless to explain that to people <- that's why IDEs should have a configurable code layout settings per project
20:04:01  <frosch123> i doubt there will be a good solution to tsunami flooding
20:04:14  <andythenorth> no mass closure option? :(
20:04:20  <andythenorth> I don’t want to blame the technology
20:04:23  <frosch123> Wolf01: people even fail with indenting when using ides which auto-indent
20:04:33  <andythenorth> but FS is only slightly better than trac :P
20:04:34  <frosch123> i don't know how, but i have seen it multiple times at work
20:04:46  <andythenorth> which is the worst ticket system I ever used, including the one we wrote in house
20:05:12  <frosch123> fs is better than those e-mail based systems like bugzilla
20:06:25  <_dp_> frosch123, it's very easy to miss indentation when using tabs
20:06:41  <_dp_> and openttd is like the only project I know that uses tabs
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20:06:49  <milek7> tabs are only sane option
20:06:59  <Alberth> fix your editor to show tabs vs spaces, and trailing white-space
20:07:22  <frosch123> i know, tabs are complicated
20:07:31  <frosch123> spaces are easier to explain to people
20:08:08  <frosch123> but in the end there is no point in argueing over "const int* a", "const int *a" and "int const *a"
20:08:41  <frosch123> the consistency matters more than some correctness
20:10:22  <andythenorth> incoming FS spam :P
20:11:08  <milek7> with tabs everybody can have different tab length set in their editor
20:11:13  <milek7> and with spaces this is impossible
20:11:31  <frosch123> milek7: yes, but that assumes that people are smart enough to understand spaces vs tabs
20:11:43  <frosch123> spaces are easier to teach to the average developer
20:12:03  <_dp_> milek7, for that to work you should only have tab indents and never mix tab+spaces
20:12:12  <_dp_> milek7, so no indent to brackets and such
20:12:18  <Wolf01> milek7, and maybe breaking those wonderful ascii art comments to explain things in the code?
20:12:33  <Wolf01> Also you may have a lot of mixed tabs+spaces
20:12:42  <Wolf01> Best is use only spaces
20:12:50  <peter1138> tabs are literally designed for aligning...
20:13:07  <milek7> _dp_: to indent to brackets you do tabs do indentation level, and then spaces to match with braces
20:13:27  <_dp_> milek7, yeah, and if someone changes tab size it all falls apart
20:13:30  <milek7> no
20:13:39  <andythenorth> are we really having a tabs vs spaces debate? :o
20:13:42  <peter1138> yes
20:13:45  <peter1138> it's important
20:13:47  <andythenorth> someone call the stereotype police :P
20:13:48  <peter1138> it's on the internet
20:13:57  <andythenorth> python vs php vs perl next?
20:14:03  <milek7> tab size only changes tabs, which should be used for identation level
20:14:04  <frosch123> _dp_: tabs do indeed work when done correctly. but as is just being proven here. milek7 will need 4 hours to explain it to someone else
20:14:23  <frosch123> all spaces, fixed indent is dead easy in comparison
20:15:10  <_dp_> frosch123, milek7 for one indentation mb, but if there are nested ones no, or stuff like assigment aligning when it's more than one tab it breaks
20:16:15  <andythenorth> ach
20:16:21  <andythenorth> semaphore versus colour signals
20:16:25  <andythenorth> that’s a feature that should have died :P
20:16:55  <frosch123> i like the signal gui on fs, whcih adds a separate toggle for semaphore/light
20:17:01  <frosch123> instead of two full rows
20:17:23  <andythenorth> +1
20:17:46  <_dp_> and I'd like a setting to completely remove semaphores from the game xD
20:17:50  <Wolf01> I would have liked a feature which allowed to convert all the semaphores to light signals, maybe one for railtypes too, maybe even one which plays for me
20:17:53  <LordAro> _dp_: tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment
20:17:55  <LordAro> it's quite easy
20:18:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01: there are (were) a few requests for mass converting semaphore -> light
20:18:13  <andythenorth> maybe 3 or so
20:18:17  <frosch123> LordAro: ottd failed at it :p
20:18:25  <andythenorth> I rejected a bunch of them
20:18:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: is this actually legit?  About to close it…
20:19:01  <andythenorth> also seems harmless and possibly even useful?
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20:20:20  <_dp_> moar hotkeys!
20:21:15  <_dp_> this one doesn't seem to be particularly useful though, there is hardly anyone to talk with on servers nowdays :/
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20:22:36  <V453000> cats cats cats
20:24:10  <andythenorth> brix brix brix
20:25:09  <_dp_> funny thing is I'm a bit reluctant to add more hotkeys to citymania client nowdays simply because there are so freaking many of them already xD
20:25:24  <_dp_> out of keys on keyboard :/
20:25:44  <peter1138> support joystick buttons
20:26:24  <_dp_> yeah, would be awesome actually
20:26:28  <frosch123> we need ribbons
20:26:29  <_dp_> and dehardcode some keys
20:28:00  <andythenorth> ribbons :D
20:28:47  <V453000> andythenorth: if I understand correctly , the part of pixa which adds palette does a deepcopy of a sample PNG just for palette, and pastes it by putpalette to your desired PNG?
20:29:03  <andythenorth> words
20:29:05  <andythenorth> ach
20:29:07  <V453000> anus
20:29:15  <andythenorth> probably
20:29:24  <andythenorth> deepcopy because sometimes PIL is changing stuff otherwise
20:29:26  <andythenorth> because python
20:29:38  <V453000> whatever I just do the same :)
20:29:43  <andythenorth> I’d have to go read it :P
20:29:45  <V453000> if it works, works
20:29:50  * andythenorth is having fun closing tickets
20:30:05  <V453000> I finally have everything solved, it outputs one big file as it should
20:30:08  <V453000> just not paletted yet
20:31:30  * andythenorth wishes timetables weren’t 
20:31:43  <andythenorth> they attract a particular level of detailed request
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20:36:45  <V453000> hm
20:36:56  <V453000> ValueError: illegal image mode
20:37:35  <andythenorth> 82 patches in FS :)
20:37:38  <andythenorth>
20:37:55  <andythenorth> I wonder how many could be closed as ‘basically, this is bollocks’ :)
20:39:42  <Wolf01> I think you could spare time by wiping out the database and start fresh
20:40:00  * _dp_ backups his patches
20:40:15  <frosch123> then you would break my bookmarks
20:40:33  <frosch123> which would destroy my dreams of ever making the list shorter
20:40:41  <andythenorth> frosch123: we could write a FS clone that just does http redirects to something else :P
20:41:02  <andythenorth> I have access to a python url redirection framework for that :P
20:41:08  <frosch123> also, old fs tasks are actually useful
20:41:23  <frosch123> sometimes you can only figure out the meaning of a commit by reading the linked fs task
20:41:40  <andythenorth> there is that
20:41:54  <andythenorth> also FS rewards masochism
20:42:05  <andythenorth> it’s hard to use, so it’s like doing some kind of exercise :P
20:42:13  <andythenorth> btw, it’s also broken :P
20:42:22  <andythenorth> I can’t reopen any tasks :P
20:42:25  <frosch123> did you crash it again?
20:42:28  <andythenorth> yup
20:42:38  <andythenorth> doesn’t like percentage complete being null
20:42:45  <andythenorth> logs are probably showing my errors
20:46:09  <Zuu> A patch I forgot that I have written shown up in my inbox :-)
20:46:32  <andythenorth> I have given that experience to about 50 people tonight :)
20:46:35  <Zuu> Ctrl+Tab focus cycling :-)
20:46:37  <andythenorth> it’s like being Bad Santa
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20:47:33  <andythenorth> why?
20:47:35  * Wolf01 is going to vent his frustrations on TF
20:48:04  <Zuu> TF as in TransportFever?
20:48:13  <Wolf01> Yes
20:49:03  <Zuu> Oh.. I stopped playing it long ago. It was rewarding but frustrating. You had to learn what things to just accept and not try to fix.
20:49:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't it still playable while doing threaded autosave?
20:49:52  <Zuu> The patches/updates made it less frustrating though compared to when it came out.
20:50:09  <andythenorth> _dp_: dunno, test it? :)
20:50:13  <andythenorth> and comment on the issue? o_O
20:50:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't even sp, no idea how autosave works :p
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20:52:31  <V453000> well it's creative
20:52:48  <andythenorth> so a patch needs to comply with:
20:52:51  <andythenorth> - MP safety
20:52:55  <andythenorth> - savegame safety
20:53:06  <andythenorth> - code style
20:53:08  <andythenorth> - performance
20:53:11  <V453000> apparently pasting a RGBA image into a "L" image, whatever that is, does not give what I would expect :D got to handle it differently
20:53:19  <andythenorth> - provide / not break APIs
20:53:27  <andythenorth> - ‘is it a good idea'
20:54:28  <andythenorth> and it need play-tested for bugs
20:54:50  <frosch123> nah, the letter is not needed
20:54:54  <frosch123> it has never worked
20:55:27  <andythenorth> V453000: what are you trying to do? Apply the palette? o_O
20:55:46  <V453000> I actually managed to apply it, that image is index and seems like it has the right palette from deepcopy
20:56:05  <V453000> it's just that when I paste the image into the "L" image, I guess that's where colours go fucked
20:56:33  <andythenorth> it will be getting palette translated somehow
20:56:36  <V453000>
20:56:41  <andythenorth> there’s always crap with this job
20:56:45  <V453000> well yeah I guess that's what is happening
20:56:52  <V453000> I'm thinking I can do it easier
20:57:12  <V453000> and have the picture which goes into the combiner already be in index
20:57:23  <V453000> I know the index when comparing it to the 32bpp after all
20:57:31  <V453000> so it should be just slight tweak to the comparer function
20:58:02  <V453000> and then paste has a masking option so I can just set which area to copy, which I know from the thread splitting parameters
20:59:02  <andythenorth> V453000: I am too brain-fried tonight to look more :)
20:59:27  <V453000> I -think- that it will work, I just need to do it
20:59:35  <V453000> but brain is borkd too
20:59:47  <V453000> probably good time to gtfo
21:00:10  <V453000> did progress, main thing works
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21:05:25  <V453000> ._.
21:05:30  <V453000> index 3 gives me alpha pink
21:05:33  <V453000> index 1 too
21:05:37  <V453000> index 128 seems to work
21:05:38  <V453000> XD
21:06:15  <V453000> maybe it's inverse
21:07:23  <V453000> it isn't
21:07:24  <V453000> hmmm
21:07:25  <andythenorth> :)
21:07:43  <andythenorth> should I close more FS? o_O
21:07:50  <andythenorth> later it gets, worse my judgement :P
21:08:19  <peter1138> more whisky?
21:08:59  <andythenorth> moar
21:09:14  <andythenorth> just 80 patches to review now eh peter1138 :D
21:09:20  <andythenorth> be done by Wednesday probs
21:09:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, have you considered changing some bugs to confirmed instead? ;)
21:09:40  <andythenorth> I did confirm one :P
21:09:45  <Shoshonite> judgement? I had envissioned a wack-a-mole type secnario!
21:09:47  <andythenorth> patch reviews
21:09:52  *** Zuu has quit IRC
21:09:56  <andythenorth> ‘Closed:  outdated against trunk'
21:10:03  <andythenorth> ‘Closed: doesn’t compile’
21:10:14  <andythenorth> ‘Closed: ignores basic coding style guidelines'
21:10:21  <andythenorth> ‘Closed: clown shoes'
21:10:32  <andythenorth> :P
21:11:05  <V453000> ok
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21:11:17  <V453000> index 1-9 gives me pure pink
21:11:20  <V453000> wtf. :D
21:11:31  <andythenorth> your palette got sorted somewhere? o_O
21:11:32  <_dp_> 'Closed: doesn't have a patch'
21:11:40  <_dp_> with this should be enough to close them all :p
21:11:49  <V453000> I just and only deepcopy from my nuts image
21:11:58  <V453000> and I set an index manually
21:12:00  <V453000> no sorting
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21:12:19  <V453000> currently just trying flat singlecolor images to see how indexes work
21:12:25  <andythenorth> fuck me V453000 now I have to go read code :P
21:12:34  <andythenorth> and I haven’t had ‘stay awake’ coffeee
21:12:46  <V453000> index 0 works too ._.
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21:13:24  <andythenorth> wtf
21:13:53  <andythenorth> so I get a palette around here.
21:14:03  <andythenorth> which is from this
21:14:24  <andythenorth> which is itself auto-generated from a palette, but eh :P
21:14:32  <andythenorth> clever that eh?
21:14:36  <andythenorth> can’t fuck that one up
21:14:37  <andythenorth> much
21:15:00  <V453000> XD
21:15:17  <V453000> I will try with this one but if it works in NUTS then wtf :)
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21:15:37  <V453000> I wonder if some nuts pictures could have windows palette
21:15:45  <V453000> but that sounds awfully unlikely
21:15:51  <andythenorth> then what’s this
21:15:57  <andythenorth> create an image with P
21:16:05  <andythenorth> then put the palette in it
21:16:12  <andythenorth> then paste stuff into it
21:16:17  <V453000> yeah that's the same as what I do
21:16:19  <V453000> pretty exactly
21:16:46  <andythenorth> what’s that “L” thing?
21:16:50  * andythenorth looks in PIL docs
21:16:59  <V453000> some palette colour mode
21:17:06  <V453000> like RGB, RGBA, P, there is L
21:17:08  <V453000> what exactly idk
21:17:38  <andythenorth> it’s luminance
21:17:52  <Shoshonite> I take someone elses png and copy my stuff into it, saves learning, because that hurts
21:18:07  <andythenorth> V453000: try P
21:18:15  <V453000> yeah
21:18:21  <Shoshonite> thats what you are talking about right?
21:18:23  <andythenorth> and put the palette in before paste
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21:18:46  <andythenorth> V453000: if you paste into image with wrong palette, your paste will get transposed
21:18:50  <andythenorth> iirc
21:19:37  <andythenorth> Shoshonite: not exactly
21:19:40  <V453000> I'll just not paste RGBA, I will make a new "P" or "L" image from the comparer, I'm just wtf about why is grayscale fucked
21:20:27  <V453000> tried to output all indexes with L
21:20:38  <andythenorth> teeny tiny
21:20:48  <V453000> trying P
21:21:01  <V453000> now I need to try your palette file but this looks like something else is fucked
21:21:20  <V453000> hm
21:21:26  <andythenorth> are you pasting the alpha channel or something?
21:21:42  <V453000> hm
21:21:43  <V453000> not sure
21:21:54  <V453000> I guess I do
21:22:01  <V453000> but still, why would it replace blacks
21:22:31  <andythenorth> err
21:22:39  <andythenorth> L14 defines combined_image
21:22:44  <andythenorth> but L18 will modify it
21:22:46  <andythenorth> intended?
21:23:01  <andythenorth> it’s an alpha composite I guess
21:23:26  <V453000> yeah alpha pasting
21:23:32  <V453000> just puts them together
21:24:05  <andythenorth> what happens if you dump them to disk during each stage of the loop (with a different filename)
21:24:10  <andythenorth> do they look right?
21:24:25  <andythenorth> PIL is funny about reassigning an image sometimes
21:24:47  <andythenorth> “probably fine”, but I’d check that with if I was doing it here
21:24:50  <V453000> should try
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21:25:51  <V453000> regardless your palette fixes the beginning indexes
21:26:01  <V453000> but as you say, the things get transposed
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21:27:08  <V453000>
21:27:38  <andythenorth> yarp
21:29:11  <V453000> image before putting palette and pasting looks right
21:29:30  <V453000> guess I try pasting first and putting palette later, outputting after paste
21:30:35  <V453000> ok
21:30:53  <V453000> apparently the L is literally just luminance (duh), so it converts it to grayscale
21:31:03  <V453000> or something like that
21:31:11  <V453000> and then the palette somehow takes the brightness as index
21:31:12  <V453000> I guess
21:31:33  <V453000>
21:33:51  <andythenorth> just ship that
21:33:53  <V453000> I will try to rewrite the comparer to output indexed pictures which I can just combine using a mask, it makes too much sense not to do it
21:33:56  <V453000> haha
21:33:58  <andythenorth> looks great in gray
21:35:00  <V453000> well, investigation was interesting, progress was done, using correct palette from you helps a ton XD
21:35:06  <V453000> thank you, such bed
21:37:47  * andythenorth also
21:38:04  <andythenorth> Shoshonite: palettes are pretty easy ;)
21:39:26  <V453000> admittedly I did the same when I was doing NUTS
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21:39:43  <V453000> was always more sure that it will work rather than applying the palette again for insecurity
21:39:50  <V453000> also my NUTS files usually already include the swatches :)
21:39:53  <V453000> nigth
21:39:55  <V453000> night
21:39:56  <V453000> gg
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23:33:04  <Wolf01> Ha, I modded it too much, daylength x4 + realistic capacity + production x4 and now I have piles of shit everywhere
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23:47:51  <Wolf01> 'night
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