Log for #openttd on 18th August 2017:
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00:17:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:35:46  <_dp_> ok, that's weird
00:36:04  <_dp_> somehow new task I created got assigned to several random people at once
00:36:39  <_dp_> and I can't even remove those assignments now :(
00:41:42  <peter1138> fixed
00:43:36  <_dp_> ty
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06:31:39  <andythenorth> o/
06:33:13  <peter1138> hi
06:34:22  <andythenorth> why don’t we sleep more?
06:35:26  <LordAro> in your case, is the answer not related to you?
06:40:51  <andythenorth> well either yes, OR I don’t go to bed early enough
06:43:36  <LordAro> :p
06:55:26  <andythenorth> hmm ticket count has gone up
06:56:02  <andythenorth> _that’s_ not playing the game right :P
06:56:42  <andythenorth> LordAro: can Circle aslo build NRT?
06:57:09  <andythenorth>
07:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: certainly, it's never "playing the game right" if you have only one metric to judge your work on
07:11:06  <andythenorth> oh you want a balanced scorecard? o_O :P
07:11:18  <andythenorth> what’s the balance to ‘reduce ticket to win'
07:11:32  <andythenorth> ('tickets')
07:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even a "scorecard" is, ultimately, "one metric"
07:13:39  <andythenorth> are you suggesting all things resolve to one metric? o_O
07:13:46  <andythenorth> hmm
07:14:07  <andythenorth> if I collapse it to ‘winning’ or ‘losing’, that’s inevitably one metric :P
07:14:42  <LordAro> andythenorth: don't see why not, although you'd have to make it "the github way" i.e. a pull request to (currently) my fork
07:14:59  <andythenorth> that bit of github boggles my brain :P
07:15:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with metrics is, they never truely cover the "optimal" case. so once you're done optimizing for that one metric, every action you do towards the true optimal case will look like "unoptimizing" towards that metric
07:15:35  <andythenorth> can’t just point a Circle job at a different remote?
07:15:44  <LordAro> nope
07:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you have to basically abandon this metric
07:16:02  <LordAro> the config's in the repo, so it has to compare against something
07:16:19  <LordAro> in fact, it'd have to be added regardless
07:16:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you leave me with no counter argument :P
07:18:09  <andythenorth> LordAro: if were using it in production, would the config be in the ottd repo?
07:18:43  * andythenorth should probably just get a Circle account and try
07:19:24  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah
07:19:42  <LordAro> also, it only seems to build to the master/default branch on github
07:20:00  <LordAro> (without pull request)
07:20:45  <LordAro> tbf though, i doubt you've done anything compiler specific
07:20:55  <LordAro> regression might be broken though :p
07:21:11  <LordAro> but since that requires a graphics set, i've not yet worked out how to solve that
07:21:31  <LordAro> guess i could download latest opengfx, but... ew
07:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a nogfx?
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07:24:53  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: not afaik
07:25:14  <andythenorth> the game still ships not working out of the box?
07:25:23  <LordAro> andythenorth: regardless, i can't look at it until this evening, see if you can solve it by then :p
07:25:30  <Wolf01> o/
07:25:33  <LordAro> andythenorth: bootstrap system still works afaik
07:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends what you mean with "out of the box"
07:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it'll prompt you for automatically downloading a graphics set if you don't have one
07:26:14  <andythenorth> right
07:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> on most systems
07:26:23  <andythenorth> _probably_ fine
07:26:40  <andythenorth> that is a PITA for automated testing
07:26:56  <andythenorth> although it’s great for testing the download prompt :P
07:27:37  <andythenorth> I might start a github repo for functional tests
07:27:47  <andythenorth> if it works, maybe we could add it as a remote to ottd
07:27:59  <andythenorth> then eventually move it into the project
07:28:19  <LordAro> the regression test is *sort of* functional tests
07:28:28  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but still, i seem to remember a "graphics" set specifically for servers, which doesn't actually contain graphics
07:28:39  <LordAro> (runs an ai, checks values are what they are expected)
07:28:50  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: hmm
07:29:18  <LordAro> without being able to examine the farm.o.o system it's difficult to tell what it does
07:29:52  <andythenorth> do you get any logging output?
07:30:08  <LordAro> yeah
07:31:08  <LordAro> andythenorth: see bin/ai/regression
07:31:17  <andythenorth> errr ok :)
07:31:23  * andythenorth will look in a bit 
07:31:39  <andythenorth> even some functional testing would seem like a win
07:31:46  * andythenorth wonders about making test case newgrfs
07:31:59  <LordAro> wonder if a dedicated server would be good enough to run the game
07:32:04  <andythenorth> presumably an AI can be made to behave deterministically?
07:32:16  <LordAro> of course
07:32:25  <LordAro> especially when it's given the same save game
07:32:26  <andythenorth> and we can screenshot on deman
07:32:28  <andythenorth> demand *
07:32:48  <andythenorth> we use this a lot
07:32:59  <LordAro> don't really need screenshots, can use the ai to query the gamestate
07:33:21  <andythenorth> I’m thinking about sprite regressions
07:33:25  <andythenorth> and newgrf features specifically
07:33:27  <LordAro> AIs should be able to get any information humans can by looking at the screen, remember
07:33:36  <LordAro> (functional informarion)
07:33:55  * andythenorth not trying to enforce a particular approach :)
07:33:58  <LordAro> sprite regressions... test it yourself and look at it? :p
07:34:02  <andythenorth> just trying to get a sense of what’s wise + possible
07:34:24  <andythenorth> gtg, bbl
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07:34:29  <Wolf01> Sprite regressions might fail a lot in presence of glitches
07:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, flickering sprites because of unresolvable sprite sorter issues
07:37:39  <LordAro> screenshota won't catch that
07:51:31  <Wolf01> FFFFFFppsfdfs.... it's already friday
07:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and i'm calling in sick...
07:53:07  <LordAro> i should get to work
07:53:17  <Wolf01> I've achieved nothing this week, I should have meet my friends for a day at the beach and no one show
07:54:14  <Wolf01> Also, I'm totally fine with breaking the town growth to make _dp_ happy
07:54:47  <Wolf01> I could do it, maybe I'll provide a patch even today
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08:30:07  <_dp_> o/
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08:35:04  <Wolf01> I need to understand better this one GrowTownWithExtraHouse(t1, TileAddByDiagDir(house_tile, target_dir));
08:35:23  <Wolf01> But I already made town grow houses on those angles
08:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what part do you not understand?
08:35:40  <Wolf01> target_dir
08:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (it
08:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> 's been ages since i looked at it)
08:36:12  <Wolf01> What could happen if I swap DiagDir with Direction
08:36:54  <Wolf01> I tried growing some cities in SE after swapping it and I don't see many problems
08:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> diagdir is for 8 angles (edges and corners), direction only for edges
08:37:24  <Wolf01> The contrary
08:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> err, right
08:38:10  <Wolf01> The function checks for distance from edge
08:38:27  <Wolf01> Also if the target tile is house or void
08:38:36  <Wolf01> And build the house
08:39:22  <_dp_> Wolf01, are you looking at ?
08:39:26  <Wolf01> Yes
08:39:38  <_dp_> I found a bit of a bug in it yesterday, I'll post fix soon
08:39:44  <Wolf01> I think I could just check for DiagDir there
08:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: there exist some ancient patches that make towns build houses further away from the road
08:40:21  <Wolf01> It's no use to check for more than 3 tiles when building near edges
08:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can compare with those?
08:41:06  <Wolf01> If I don't understand what the vanilla code mean, I don't think I would understand it better with some ancient patch
08:41:22  <_dp_> building houses further is a bit too much of a deviation from current mechanics imo
08:41:54  <Wolf01> It already does it when replacing 2x2 houses ;)
08:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but about checking what functionality they touch, and whether it's the right way to do it
08:42:12  <_dp_> Wolf01, I know, but it's not very likely
08:42:43  <_dp_> in fact it can even walk-replace house to any distance, just chance of that is negligible
08:42:55  <Wolf01> Eddi, I know this, I already changed this code a bit for NRT, the problem is to avoid making more checks than required
08:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i touched this code ages ago, when i attempted making towns expand on slopes, instead of flattening everything
08:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> which i seem to remember ended up as a one-line change
08:44:36  <Wolf01> Yes, this too
08:44:43  <Wolf01> Ok, 3 lines
08:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> putting a "random(1 in 6)" in front of the "flatten" command
08:45:49  <Wolf01> The problem is counting the neighbours, if I increment the directions I should increment the limit too
08:46:07  <Wolf01> But why should I need to increment the directions here?
08:46:44  <Wolf01> Also, if I already have the house tile, why does it adds twice the same direction?
08:47:28  <_dp_> Wolf01, that a weird part of town growh, with enabled roads it can add two houses in one tick
08:47:37  <_dp_> Wolf01, probably to fill gaps in 3x3 layout
08:47:52  <Wolf01> Could be
08:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that code exists
08:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if 3 sides of the 3x3 grid are covered, it builds a house in the center
08:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (works also without grid)
08:51:27  <_dp_> I've no idea why it only does so with enabled roads but whatever, at least that allows do disable it :p
08:51:49  <peter1138> morning
08:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: probably a forgotten corner case when disabling roads was introduced
08:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think the extra house is older than that)
08:58:22  <Wolf01> Nice that if you don't allow towns to build roads they still don't give a fuck and build roads
08:58:25  <Wolf01> BUG!
08:58:56  <Wolf01> And that's with vanilla 1.7.1
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08:59:13  <Wolf01> I'm comparing the growth
08:59:25  <_dp_> Wolf01, wut, how did you get them to build roads?
08:59:30  <Wolf01> Try
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09:00:00  <Wolf01> Scenario editor, build a road layout, fund a town
09:00:22  <Wolf01> So I should fix even that one... later
09:00:25  <_dp_> Wolf01, ah, SE
09:00:59  <Wolf01> After 2 clicks on "expand" it prompts you with "towns can't build roads, enable them in settings > blah"
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09:04:24  <Wolf01> It only does this when funding a town, if you delete all the houses and expand, no more roads
09:05:22  <_dp_> interesting... it checks twice whether layout allows house, once in GrowTownInTile and once in CheckTownBuild*House
09:05:53  <Wolf01> Expected behavior: build only the seed tile road if no road is found near the tile
09:06:12  <Wolf01> Current behavior: don't give a fuck about the setting value
09:07:20  <_dp_> so there is actually no bug in my patch since I only avoided one check
09:07:23  <_dp_> st
09:07:25  <_dp_> st
09:07:29  <_dp_> ops, sorry
09:07:52  <_dp_> still, should probably do it properly in case of some future changes
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09:12:57  <Wolf01>
09:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm afraid that change would also make starting a game with no roads enabled to only construct single road towns
09:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'd rather have a separate option in SE town creation window: empty/small/medium/large
09:13:43  <Wolf01> Yes, my thought too, maybe a check for SE?
09:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so empty would create a 0 house, 1 road town
09:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> leave the rest as is
09:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need to get up and go to the doctor :/
09:15:29  <_dp_> Wolf01, what's up with right picture, does it not work with newgrfs?
09:15:41  <Wolf01> 2 different games?
09:15:49  <Wolf01> I didn't set up the grfs on dev
09:16:12  <_dp_> Wolf01, ah, it's unpached
09:17:06  <Wolf01> I'm glad it built the stadium in the 2x2 area which vanilla leaves empty :P
09:20:28  * andythenorth thinks there might be quite a lot of SE feature requests
09:20:36  <andythenorth> I *never* use SE except to test patches
09:20:42  <andythenorth> so I can’t judge them
09:20:51  <andythenorth> probably some consistent themes there though
09:21:05  <Wolf01> Yes, and I have a lot more feature requests for SE
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09:22:15  <Wolf01> Also in all my tests no house was built in the middle tile of the 3x3 grid
09:22:32  <Wolf01> Not a single one
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09:22:39  <Wolf01> Only 2x2 houses
09:22:57  <_dp_> Wolf01, do you test with roads enabled?
09:23:01  <Wolf01> Yes
09:23:07  <Wolf01> Building a 3x3 grid
09:23:57  <Wolf01> I'm cheching if by a chance the edit I've done breaks the layout
09:24:06  <_dp_> hm, I remember testing it long ago and it worked fine
09:24:12  <andythenorth> so many combinatorial things to test :P
09:24:49  <andythenorth> 4 road layout algorithms
09:25:11  <andythenorth> towns allowed to build roads or not
09:25:12  <_dp_> yeah, would be very nice to have some automatic tests for town growth... so many different cases
09:25:20  <andythenorth> town growth speed
09:25:46  <andythenorth> maybe Pikka was right, we should have done newgrf towns
09:25:52  <_dp_> gladly growth speed doesn't rly matter)
09:25:55  <andythenorth> it got bounced because ‘do it in GS'
09:26:00  <andythenorth> but GS is a shit solution for it
09:26:08  <andythenorth> road layout should be a newgrf thing
09:26:43  <Wolf01> I should change the checs
09:26:45  <Wolf01> échecks
09:26:50  <andythenorth> we should burn some of it down
09:26:57  * andythenorth getting ahead of self
09:27:03  <Wolf01> Vanilla works fine
09:27:21  <andythenorth> placement checks are 100% something that newgrf could have handled
09:27:25  <andythenorth> road layouts....dunno
09:27:34  <Wolf01> I removed the grfs just to check
09:27:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, placement check includes layout check
09:31:09  <andythenorth> also signals should have gone to newgrf
09:31:19  <andythenorth> there is no reason for base game to provide semaphore vs. colour light
09:31:34  <andythenorth> combinatorial crap
09:32:30  <andythenorth> more cattle, fewer pets
09:34:11  <andythenorth> canals should go from base game
09:34:15  <andythenorth> watertypes spec
09:34:18  <andythenorth> keep rivers
09:34:45  <andythenorth> this is completely impossible of course :)
09:34:49  <andythenorth> because savegames
09:35:48  <Wolf01> Convert all semaphores to light signals unless you have a grf loaded?
09:36:12  <andythenorth> data migration?
09:36:20  <andythenorth> signaltypes
09:36:30  <Wolf01> Saveload already does stuff, why not?
09:36:55  <andythenorth> works when there is a valid A -> B type conversion I guess
09:37:02  <Wolf01> And you don't need to make new savegames to load on older versions
09:37:28  <andythenorth> I would apply “reduce features, increase moddability, repeat” to OpenTTD
09:37:39  <Wolf01> He
09:37:40  <andythenorth> 1 and only 1 way provide built-in
09:37:50  <andythenorth> but configuration points exploitable by newgrf and GS
09:37:57  <andythenorth> and I would probably adjust GS somewhat
09:38:38  <andythenorth> and I would change the savegame promise from ‘perfect replica of your TTO game'
09:38:48  <andythenorth> to “doesn’t actually get corrupted"
09:39:15  <Wolf01> +1
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09:46:29  <_dp_> ok, I'm done with that patch, except for one redundant line it's perfectly fine
09:46:37  <_dp_> no bugs found no nothing :/
09:48:57  <andythenorth> :)
09:50:00  <andythenorth> bbl
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09:51:26  <_dp_> anyway, unless it's something big nobody will notice a change in town growth xD
09:53:44  <Wolf01> Why do you check for the corners and don't just try to build a house in all 8 directions instead of the previous 4?
09:54:25  <_dp_> Wolf01, it will drastically change probabilities for choosing house spots
09:54:44  <_dp_> since some spots will be accessible from different number of tiles
09:55:15  <Wolf01> Yes, as far as I can understand your code, when you hit a corner you always build a house there
09:56:08  <_dp_> Wolf01, no, there is a random check, it's a bit hacky but gives equal probability with other spots
09:56:22  <Wolf01> I made it so you can build houses diagonally even on U turns
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09:56:43  <_dp_> if ((cur_rb & ROAD_X) != target_rb) return;
09:57:00  <_dp_> considers one of road bits as random for corner tile
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09:58:21  <_dp_> Wolf01, you mean U turn like with two road turns, not just road dead-end?
09:58:27  <_dp_> Wolf01, what's wrong with that?
09:58:34  <Wolf01> Even the dead end
09:59:06  <_dp_> hm.. that shouldn't work
09:59:18  <Wolf01> Why not?
10:00:53  <_dp_> Wolf01, single roadbit usually means unfinished road, it's quite annoying when towns start to build houses around it
10:01:25  <_dp_> Wolf01, I even had special road tool in cm client before that was changed
10:01:33  <_dp_> Wolf01, that build roads without half-tiles
10:04:49  <_dp_> Wolf01, though, did you make it so it can build on corners of u-turns but not in 4-adjacent tiles?
10:04:59  <_dp_> Wolf01, that's fine, I guess, just weird
10:05:32  <_dp_> Wolf01, can you post an image actually coz I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here
10:06:21  <Wolf01>
10:06:55  <Wolf01> Ok, the bottom right one is "valid"
10:07:36  <_dp_> ok, I got it now, I was thinking of completely different thing (one roadbit aka half-road tile)
10:07:46  <Wolf01> TileIndex house_tile = TileAddByDir(tile, RandomDir()); // position of a possible house <- I changed only this line
10:08:04  <Wolf01> RandomDir() instead of RandomDiagDir()
10:08:13  <Wolf01> (I made also the RandomDir function)
10:08:49  <_dp_> but on that picture I'm more worried about houses that are build straight on the end of road
10:08:54  <Wolf01> I would look at the checks to avoid blocking building roads in original and better layouts... on grids already works
10:09:25  <Wolf01> I think that's because I disabled road building by towns, so they just put houses everywhere
10:11:12  <Wolf01> No, it's missing a check
10:11:27  <Wolf01> Vanilla leaves that empty
10:11:28  <_dp_> well, that super annoying feature imo
10:11:38  <_dp_> for anyone who builds layouts manually
10:12:03  <_dp_> and it still can mess up automatic layouts
10:13:57  <_dp_> awful in competitive cb either
10:14:23  <_dp_> you can't just go and destroy house in cb, that's a huge setback
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10:18:59  <Wolf01> Automatic layouts work, now I must fix the original ones
10:20:02  <Wolf01> Meh, even worse
10:24:20  <_dp_> I though of doing 8-tile random when I just started that patch but scrapped that idea pretty fast
10:24:38  <_dp_> except for adding houses in corner it changes a lot of other stuff and none of it in a good way
10:25:03  <Wolf01> Right
10:26:37  <Wolf01> With Direction you need to check in 2 more directions for the second tile and not just the next one
10:32:39  <NGC3982> i wrote last night about cement not being transportable with ecs while in early games. i found an old bug that was properly reported, but a very long time ago. do you know if its solved by configuration or something else?
10:34:58  <_dp_> NGC3982, I think cement is transportable on our ecs quest server but that's LL heritage, I've no idea how it works)
10:35:52  <NGC3982> i see
10:36:15  <NGC3982> i just noticed in a single player game and havent looked any further, unfortunately
10:37:23  <_dp_> NGC3982, there should be something in newgrfs that fixes it:
10:38:27  <Wolf01> Is there a way to rotate a diagdir?
10:39:51  <Wolf01> I mean, I have NW direction and converting it to diagdir results in N, I want W too
10:41:39  <_dp_> Wolf01, diagdir is a single direction you probably want something else then
10:41:55  <_dp_> roadbits will do probably
10:43:32  <NGC3982> _dp_: i notice that the bug seems to depend on basic vector ii. interestingly enough, that server uses an older version than me.
10:44:10  <NGC3982> ill try the old one and see if the problem remains.
10:44:26  <_dp_> NGC3982, yeah, it's an ancient server :)
10:44:59  <_dp_> NGC3982, it also has some hacks like universal wagons iirc
10:45:33  <NGC3982> i see
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11:29:12  <__ln___> greetings again from the austro-hungarian empire
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11:31:59  <__ln___> austria is like germany, but with support for credit cards
11:32:25  <Wolf01> Lol
11:32:27  <Wolf01> Hi
11:32:31  <andythenorth> hi
12:05:31  <peter1138> hmm
12:05:37  <peter1138> need a new mobile phone
12:05:39  <peter1138> dunno what to get
12:05:50  <andythenorth> there is phone, or there is Android
12:05:59  <andythenorth> I just buy phone, which has a fruit logo on it
12:06:04  <peter1138> yeah not getting an iphone
12:06:20  <andythenorth> I get whichever one the carrier gives me, then I don’t have to blame myself for the choice
12:06:26  <andythenorth> zero-regret strategy
12:06:36  <peter1138> i don't have a carrier
12:08:20  <peter1138> i had a virgin mobile payg sim in 1999
12:08:31  <peter1138> but lost that a couple of years ago
12:08:50  <andythenorth> everyone else I know seems to buy Samsung
12:08:54  <andythenorth> dunno what it means
12:10:35  <LordAro> people keep talking about wileyfox
12:12:24  <Wolf01> I can't understand people... "how do i make VS recognize ///< comment as a doxygen comment and not xml?" "put a \ before the <"... "maybe without changing the code?"
12:13:11  <andythenorth> can VS not learn language semantics? :P
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12:14:01  <Wolf01> VS defaults to xml when /// is used because it can create the documentation by itself
12:15:23  <andythenorth> why are timetables?
12:15:34  <andythenorth> they are the spawn of the devil as far as OpenTTD goes
12:15:42  <andythenorth> someone convince me they have a purpose? o_O
12:15:57  <Wolf01> I'm not able to use them
12:16:11  <FLHerne> You need them to make your non-full-load vehicles not clump
12:16:13  <Wolf01> I only find downsides when I try
12:16:24  <andythenorth> they don’t actually work
12:16:29  <andythenorth> they’re broken
12:16:31  <FLHerne> They're about the most cumbersome and unsuitable way to do that, but eh
12:16:42  <andythenorth> I was going to file a bug report, but I was told that what I was reporting was expected behaviour
12:16:53  <FLHerne> Hm?
12:17:06  <andythenorth> there is some magic hotkey which is supposed to space the vehicles out, magically
12:17:14  <andythenorth> but it flat out doesn’t work for ships
12:17:15  <FLHerne> With the new-ish auto-start-dates, and tweaking up the duration so everything's not always late, they work
12:17:40  <peter1138> needs constant micromanaging
12:17:42  <FLHerne> Oh, I think I've noticed that
12:17:57  <FLHerne> (usually not enough ships on a route for it to make any particular difference)
12:18:04  <FLHerne> Why?
12:18:10  <andythenorth> eh, back channel chat is naughty
12:18:14  <andythenorth> but most of this is just wrong
12:18:30  <andythenorth> control pax/cargo production: newgrf
12:18:40  <andythenorth> control population growth: should be newgrf
12:18:42  <FLHerne> Worth noting he's got his own timetable patch, which is actually sane
12:18:48  <andythenorth> station rating: newgrf
12:18:53  <FLHerne> If you're the kind of person who wants micromanaged timetables
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12:19:19  <andythenorth> I don’t disagree with his game goals
12:19:21  <FLHerne> (whereas the current version is pretty useless either for micromanaging or just-working)
12:19:26  <andythenorth> well I do, but not virulently
12:19:30  <peter1138> i was asking a few months ago but nobody could explain timetables and what these patches do
12:19:43  <andythenorth> I disagree virulently with source code adjustments to make a particular play style
12:20:21  <andythenorth> it’s every kind of wrong
12:20:42  <andythenorth> peter1138 timetables /\o/\ meh
12:21:07  <peter1138> i never managed to make the current timetables do anything useful
12:21:28  <andythenorth> I use sometimes ‘wait for 10 days’ when starting buses or ships on a route
12:21:34  <andythenorth> because they’re too big for full load
12:21:38  <andythenorth> in small towns
12:22:02  <FLHerne> ‎<‎andythenorth‎>‎ control pax/cargo production: newgrf   <- does FIRS have a parameter for that now?
12:22:52  <FLHerne> Atm I have a patch for that, because "fix it with a newgrf" only helps if you didn't already override all the behaviour with another one
12:23:02  <Wolf01> TF tries to send new vehicles to all the stations when starting multiple vehicles, trying to keep the separation and a coherent waiting time for cargo
12:23:04  <andythenorth> you have to fork the newgrf
12:23:11  <andythenorth> mods should be widely forked
12:23:11  <FLHerne> Well, yes
12:23:37  <andythenorth> like SPI, and Auz Industries, and Leif stopped bothering me with suggestions I wouldn’t do and forked a Norwegian FIRS
12:23:44  <andythenorth> that’s the go
12:24:00  <FLHerne> And forking a huge newgrf for orthogonal minor tweaks is better than having an option?
12:24:27  <andythenorth> well
12:24:32  <FLHerne> Different industries is different
12:24:57  <andythenorth> I have three different views on this, and they’re not incompatible
12:25:00  <FLHerne> I mean, if the point of your grf is to add industries, and you want different industries, of course you want a different grf
12:25:18  <andythenorth> 1. FIRS provides _some_ control over production via the supplies boost parameter
12:25:22  <andythenorth> 2. fork it
12:25:28  <FLHerne> But the base amount of cargo you want isn't really tied to any industry grf
12:25:34  <FLHerne> Hey, different idea
12:25:43  <andythenorth> 3. there should be a set of Economy methods in GS
12:26:13  <andythenorth> the Economy methods in GS should dump an economy level byte onto each house or industry tile
12:26:20  <FLHerne> Eh, GS is an even worse solution to anything
12:26:31  <andythenorth> newgrf should be able to optionally use that for production
12:26:44  <FLHerne> Because you can have exactly one, and creating n^2 scripts would be insane
12:26:53  <andythenorth> well GS is broken currently
12:26:56  <FLHerne> (more than)
12:26:59  <andythenorth> make a counter proposal?
12:27:40  <FLHerne> Just have a multiplier, either for production or vehicle capacity...
12:27:50  <andythenorth> in the newgrf?
12:27:59  <FLHerne> Stick it in a newgrf var like the base costs if it makes people happy
12:28:02  <FLHerne> No, in the game
12:28:23  <andythenorth> right
12:28:33  <andythenorth> and, then...?
12:28:39  <andythenorth> throw away newgrf production control? o-O
12:28:40  <FLHerne> Because there's not really any relation between newgrf industry strategies and the player's network-design preferences
12:28:42  <andythenorth> or something else?
12:29:31  <FLHerne> No, literally just a multiplier on top of whatever the newgrf says
12:29:37  <FLHerne> I guess that might break strings
12:29:45  <andythenorth> do you know how newgrf production works? o_O
12:29:51  <FLHerne> Well, not break, but make-inaccurate
12:29:56  <andythenorth> a multiplier could be done
12:30:00  <andythenorth> but it would be a car crash
12:30:11  <FLHerne> <reads spec>
12:30:21  <andythenorth> you have three places to deal with production
12:30:27  <andythenorth> also two text callbacks
12:30:30  <andythenorth> iirc
12:30:49  <FLHerne> Would mess up balancing, so <or vehicle capacity> was the better idea probably
12:30:53  <andythenorth> you also have to factor in existing newgrfs that have concepts like refusing acceptance
12:31:09  <andythenorth> and limited total production reserves for mines etc
12:31:33  <andythenorth> vehicle capacity factor is interesting
12:31:38  <andythenorth> but why do it in the game?
12:32:12  <NGC3982> has there ever been any discussion on adding weather to ottd?
12:32:20  <andythenorth> yes :D
12:32:25  <andythenorth> let’s discuss that
12:32:48  <FLHerne> Because otherwise every newgrf needs to add such a parameter (or users will grumble, or locally patch their preferred newgrf or the game)
12:33:08  <andythenorth> FLHerne: it would save me doing it in all my newgrfs yes
12:33:38  <andythenorth> I can’t see many downsides, except it would “need” to be implemented both globally, and on a per-grf basis
12:33:44  <andythenorth> and maybe on a per-company basis in MP
12:33:46  <FLHerne> My general thought is that if something would be relevant to essentially all newgrfs of the type, it makes sense to have a global setting
12:33:54  <_dp_> I understand "should be mod" thing but not in case of newgrfs, newgrs are terrible for any king of logic or configuration
12:34:14  <andythenorth> yes
12:34:18  <andythenorth> that’s what GS is for
12:34:22  <andythenorth> or admin port
12:34:34  <andythenorth> GS is unusable of course
12:34:38  <FLHerne> Otherwise you change the parameters for some grfs and it unbalances everything because they don't have quite the same effect
12:35:01  <_dp_> yeah, they are kind of better suited except they can't do shit
12:35:30  <andythenorth> nobody wants to make the platonic perfect one-GS-to-rule-them-all
12:35:35  <andythenorth> so it’s not really used
12:35:54  <FLHerne> Would it be possible to have GS's claim 'write' access for a specific segment of the API?
12:35:57  <andythenorth> AIs with a UI for commands would be better
12:36:27  <andythenorth> literally the AI has a defined interface for player-triggered actions
12:36:35  <andythenorth> with appropriate buttons in the GUI
12:36:37  <FLHerne> e.g. you could have a GS that asked set town growth, but promised not to do anything else
12:36:46  <_dp_> It's mostly same with newgrfs, eg you can't have two newgrfs tweaking same industry so you eventually had to do one mega-grf
12:36:54  <FLHerne> That way you could add orthogonal GSs
12:36:57  <andythenorth> so much of this crap could be scripted
12:37:06  <andythenorth> like this ‘go to depot and sell’ thing
12:37:10  <andythenorth> that’s just an AI task
12:37:14  <FLHerne> Yeah, but at least you can have many newgrfs that do different things
12:37:25  <andythenorth> company scripts
12:37:33  <andythenorth> scoped to company objects
12:37:51  <FLHerne> Whereas currently, you can have exactly one GS that does one thing, unless it's an insane megalunaticGS that does everything and the kitchen sink in an unmaintainable way
12:38:04  <andythenorth> it’s failed to win
12:38:13  <andythenorth> unlike newgrf, or even AI
12:38:16  <andythenorth> GS is a desert
12:38:58  <FLHerne> Well, there's no market for GSs that just do small clever tweaks
12:39:20  <andythenorth> well it would be an insane thing to do
12:39:23  <FLHerne> Because if you have a GS that just does a small clever tweak, that's your GS allotment
12:39:24  <andythenorth> who’s going to use them?
12:40:13  <FLHerne> Yeah
12:40:58  <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, I thought of pretty much the same api claiming yesterday. though more in a context of some newgrf-like gs that's client-side
12:41:29  <_dp_> FLHerne, you also need ability to override claims of other mods though to be able to extend them
12:43:14  <andythenorth> or built-in isolation
12:43:23  <andythenorth> or it just breaks if you have conflicting GS
12:46:24  <andythenorth> doesn’t have to have a bureacracy layer
12:46:36  <andythenorth> if you load two newgrfs that mess with cargos, your game breaks
12:46:51  <andythenorth> players encounter this frequently, but no kittens die
12:47:04  <andythenorth> too much poka-yoke stops things shipping
12:47:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, aren't there enough change-newgrf-ingame bugs already?
12:47:58  <andythenorth> yes, but that’s a different point
12:48:21  <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, looks same too me, people click stuff and expect it to work
12:48:24  <andythenorth> they do
12:48:30  <andythenorth> very sensible goal they have
12:49:55  * andythenorth looks for FS to close
12:51:36  <_dp_> partial ordering seems to be fine for a bureacracy layer here
12:52:14  <_dp_> you specify what grfs you override and if game can't determine priorities for each api than setup is incompatible
12:52:35  <andythenorth> not sure how GS would reserve blocks of commands
12:52:39  <andythenorth> just reserve writes?
12:52:43  <andythenorth> dunno
12:52:49  <andythenorth> seems prone to a cluster fuck to me
12:53:05  <andythenorth> collaboration between plugins is usually a dead end
12:53:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, by api here I mean like newgrf callbacs not commands
12:53:20  <andythenorth> common solution is to put each plugin in a walled garden
12:53:47  <andythenorth> newgrf callbacks? o_O
12:53:50  <andythenorth> ??
12:54:19  <andythenorth> is there some layer of control you think is missing _dp_ ? o_O
12:55:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, not sure what do you mean but I'm mostly talking here about some imaginary nwgrf-like logic done with gs))
12:55:40  <andythenorth> what would it control?
12:56:19  <_dp_> andythenorth, same things newgrfs do, just more and better :)
12:56:30  <andythenorth> not sure what’s gained
12:56:41  <andythenorth> expand the idea? o_O
12:57:05  <andythenorth> is this for towns and industries, or everything or what?
12:57:32  <_dp_> well, it's pretty vague of an idea, haven't though it much, but I'll try
12:57:52  <_dp_> basically, replace newgrf logic part with GS
12:58:26  <_dp_> so you'll be able to program newgrf logic in squirrel
12:58:40  <andythenorth> what’s the upsides?
12:58:40  <_dp_> and let them somehow interact/reuse api of other grfs
13:00:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, having some sensible language in which you can write extensible code
13:00:44  <_dp_> also in this case I would probably want for server to be able to push such script on client
13:01:02  <_dp_> not a full grf with resources but just script
13:01:10  <andythenorth> probably better to call them mods here
13:01:13  <andythenorth> grf is too specific
13:01:24  <andythenorth> this would be a proposal to abolish newgrf?
13:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> man, trips to the doctor always take foreeever
13:02:44  <_dp_> andythenorth, not necessarily abolish, just overhaul logic part. probably could be even done in a backwards compatible way
13:03:30  <andythenorth> hmm
13:03:55  <andythenorth> I think there’s a scripting gap, but I’m not sure what porting newgrf to squirrel gains us?
13:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> probably nothing but trouble
13:04:21  <andythenorth> let the idea run
13:04:50  <_dp_> btw, how is complex logic currently done in grf. like finding distance to nearest water tile? is there some kind of programming language in nml?
13:05:07  <_dp_> or is it mostly hacks?
13:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you rip people out of their "perfectly fine" existing development environment, while at the same time critical functionality will be missing in the new one
13:05:19  <andythenorth> it’s a defined API
13:05:28  <andythenorth> it’s not complex logic
13:05:52  <andythenorth> callback -> vars -> conditions -> results
13:06:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, so openttd core does the search?
13:06:07  <andythenorth> depends
13:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the problem is that squirrel and grf are based on two fundamentally different mindset. squirrel (ai/gs) is a program that interacts with the game through commands, while grf is a set of callbacks that get interacted with by the game
13:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: so one is active,  the other one passive
13:06:21  <andythenorth> if there’s a var providing what you need, openttd gets it
13:06:35  <andythenorth> if there’s no var, you have to create your own checks using the vars you do have
13:07:16  <milek7> we can have callbacks in squirrel, too
13:07:21  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, by gs here I just mean squirrel language, doesn't even have to be squirrel any other decent one will do
13:07:44  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, ofc server-side command-controlling part has nothing to do with it
13:08:31  <_dp_> milek7, in current GS callbacks aren't that useful
13:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: maybe, but it would just be another layer on top, instead of the existing deeply integrated callbacks
13:08:50  <_dp_> milek7, they are more like notifications
13:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and some of the callbacks are performance critical
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13:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and you will not resolve the difference that squirrel is an interpeted language, while grf is a bytecode language
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13:12:08  <milek7> what that changes?
13:12:25  <milek7> squirrel is probably also compiled to bytecode
13:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> performance
13:13:10  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more of an implementation thing than a fundamental issue
13:13:20  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, java and c# seem to be decently fast
13:13:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and then we haven't even discussed how you get all the sprite data into your squirrel program
13:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: but "decent" still means a factor of 2 behind optimized native code
13:14:33  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, depends
13:14:45  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are cases when jit can do better
13:15:13  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, but I'm not a fan of java or c# either
13:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: lets not be too nitpicky about a random statement that might have been true 15 years ago when i heard about it :p
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13:18:19  <_dp_> btw, js is stupidly fast nowdays
13:18:38  <_dp_> I wish they put that effort in optimizing python instead xD
13:20:16  <milek7> i think 'mods' should be able to override almost any core function and poke at structures
13:20:20  <milek7>  but it is hard to do without giving it ability to execute arbitrary code
13:20:23  * _dp_ has a random idea of integrating openttd with llvm
13:24:18  <milek7> PNaCl for openttd? ;p
13:24:43  <_dp_> milek7, WebAssembly :p
13:29:24  <FLHerne> _dp_: ISTR that the newgrf sprite callbacks are a large proportion of the rendering time already
13:29:39  <FLHerne> (I think it's in the thread with cirdan's SSE blitters?)
13:30:54  <andythenorth> there is an impression that a large proportion of time is spent resolving sprites
13:31:02  <andythenorth> and in many cases they can’t be cached because newgrf
13:31:07  <andythenorth> this may or may not be FUD
13:31:12  <andythenorth> I’ll see if I can find the post
13:31:38  <_dp_> I know for sure one of my zoning patches lags like crazy on callbacks, but for vanilla idk
13:31:52  <andythenorth>
13:32:22  <andythenorth>  Train::GetImage
13:35:01  * andythenorth is fairly confident that the problem with scripting isn’t because of the choice of language
13:35:08  <_dp_> why on earth does newgrf require a logic there
13:35:19  <andythenorth> guess?
13:35:27  <_dp_> I mean I have and idea why but that seems a poor api choice to me
13:35:37  <andythenorth> that horse bolted
13:35:51  <FLHerne> _dp_: Because having different sprites for trains is sort of the one fundamental newgrf thing? :P
13:36:21  <andythenorth> it wasn’t obviously fundamental that we had to animate them
13:36:30  <andythenorth> that choice could have been made differently
13:36:34  <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, but shouldn't it be more of a "set sprite" api than "quick, what sprite do we need to show"?
13:36:34  <andythenorth> for performance reasons
13:36:45  <FLHerne> (and changing them based on unpredictable conditions is used for all sorts of things like tilting and extra-long multi-vehicle carriages and...)
13:36:46  <andythenorth> _dp_: they’re equivalent?
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13:37:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, not in terms of speed :p
13:37:03  <andythenorth> eh>?
13:37:10  <andythenorth> how do you know which sprite to set?
13:37:35  <FLHerne> _dp_: Yeah, but the union of variables used by any train newgrf to pick a sprite is going to be "all of them"
13:37:53  <_dp_> andythenorth, if you mean animations then take animating logic out of grf, let grf just set animation sequence
13:38:11  <FLHerne> So you need to redo the logic every time anything changes, which is every tick anyway
13:38:41  <andythenorth> _dp_: I would have banned animation even
13:38:44  <_dp_> though honestly I know way too little about newgrfs to seriously propose anything here
13:38:47  <andythenorth> and only change sprites on triggers
13:38:56  <andythenorth> like load / unload
13:38:59  <andythenorth> but no
13:39:14  <andythenorth> we must for authors have ability to change sprites on totally arbitrary conditions
13:39:51  <andythenorth> like age of vehicle, current speed, current reliability, tracktype, slope value, corner value, month of year etc
13:40:26  <FLHerne> How else will you know when the wagons ought to have snow piled on them?
13:40:51  <supermop_> i randomly change exhaust pipes based on groups of probabilities based on build year
13:41:04  <supermop_> was a lot of work and you can't even really notice
13:41:04  <_dp_> pfff, yeah, now I get the drift...
13:41:14  <andythenorth> or if the slug is hungry
13:41:28  <supermop_> also change cab livery based n if you buy vehicle in the preview period
13:41:31  <andythenorth> could have just been done on triggers
13:41:45  <andythenorth> then cached until next trigger
13:41:52  <supermop_> which was supposed to be an easter egg but i dont think anyone would notice
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13:42:05  <supermop_> those are all done at vehicle purchase though
13:42:26  <_dp_> slug eats cpu and he still is hungry? :/
13:43:10  <andythenorth> if the sprite chain was just action 3 -> action 1 then we’d be laughing
13:43:16  <andythenorth> but no, we have varact 2 for fun
13:45:44  <andythenorth> bbl
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13:47:42  <_dp_> if game starts to lag skip more getimage calls and use last value
13:51:20  <_dp_> basically, gradual degradation instead of optimization
13:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the tricky part about skipping things is that they might be gamestate relevant, and thus desync
13:55:24  <FLHerne> That would cause very odd appearance when going around corners
13:56:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but GetImage doesn't seem to be gamestate relevant. or rather it shouldn't be
13:57:01  <_dp_> do newgrfs even have an internal state?
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13:57:50  <_dp_> I guess there is some newgrf storage in savegames
13:57:59  <_dp_> but can't think of any grf that uses it
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13:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there are "parameters" that can be changed during initialisation, but not runtime. and then there are item-dependent permanent storage, and each callback has temporary storage
13:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (temporary storage is discarded after the callback ran)
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14:02:53  <NGC3982> for a person well endowed in the perks of irc, its puzzling that andy still do that quit/join thing.
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14:13:03  <planetmaker> _dp_, there's permant storage. E.g. industry newgrfs make use of that for production. Or houses for deciding looks
14:13:30  <planetmaker> industries is as such game-critcal
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14:27:29  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
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14:33:45  <planetmaker> o/ :)
14:34:11  <V453000> yo humenz
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14:38:52  <Alberth> o/
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14:44:21  <V453000> this weekend I hope to finish my palette converter >
14:44:22  <V453000> :>
14:44:28  <andythenorth> such hopes
14:44:40  <V453000> big
14:44:59  * andythenorth sat in van-office
14:45:03  <andythenorth> watching weather
14:45:29  <V453000> :)
14:46:55  <andythenorth> V453000 sensible family car
14:46:58  <andythenorth> also current office :P
14:47:05  <andythenorth> not actually mine, I don’t have big alloys
14:47:13  <V453000> sounds nice
14:47:26  <andythenorth> has 240v power
14:47:27  <V453000> the problem is that when you buy a car like this then family is going to be packing a lot of shit without restraints
14:47:33  <andythenorth> happens anyway
14:47:43  <V453000> and you are going to be the one who carries it into the car every weekend from 4th floor back and forth :D
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14:48:02  <V453000> is why I'm excusing myself for having a smaller car
14:48:13  <V453000> why/how
14:50:11  <andythenorth> also got
14:50:12  <andythenorth> super small
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14:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you're still interested in cities skylines, it's currently -75% on steam
14:56:45  <Wolf01> Good
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14:57:19  <Wolf01> I should purchase the bundle
14:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the bundle still misses the 2 or 3 latest dlcs
14:58:11  <Wolf01> Noticed
14:58:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to play ‘close the tickets'?
14:58:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has proved we can’t win that game ever, but eh
14:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it might still be worth playing "unwinnable" games for a while
14:58:57  <peter1138> £23!?
14:58:59  <peter1138> ffs
14:59:12  <peter1138> is the base game no good?
14:59:30  <andythenorth> peter1138, yes £23! that is how much a laptop stand costs for a ford transit
14:59:36  <andythenorth> funny you mentioned it
14:59:56  <supermop_> sounds cheap
14:59:57  <peter1138> errr
15:00:25  <supermop_> feel like only a commercial user would want a laptop stand in a commercial van
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15:00:37  <supermop_> so they'd be able to gouge the price a bit
15:00:48  <supermop_> or worse - a government customer
15:00:50  <andythenorth> it’s actually £231
15:00:59  <andythenorth> or so
15:01:04  <supermop_> still sounds cheap for govt use
15:01:05  <V453000> iz win
15:01:09  <V453000> allowing colours works :>
15:02:05  <andythenorth> ??
15:02:23  <peter1138> colouring? rgb company colours?
15:02:51  <JGR_> Reading up a bit on the GRF GetImage() discussion above, it is possible to cache the result in most cases, in a way that removes the performance problem for most GRFs. There is a (somewhat hacky) patch in my patchpack which does this.
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15:04:03  <andythenorth> how do you do it?
15:04:09  <andythenorth> or do I have to read the patch? :)
15:05:11  <andythenorth> so do we need hyperlinks on buy menu for vehicles?
15:05:23  <andythenorth> and if so, can we have them for industries also?
15:05:29  <andythenorth> and maybe houses, on get info?
15:05:37  <andythenorth> also town names, if they’re real
15:05:51  <supermop_> can i make a newgrf thaat some how scams peoples credit cards?
15:05:59  <andythenorth> yes, but not easily
15:06:12  <supermop_> squid ate phishing link
15:06:12  <andythenorth> however we could with newgrf hyperlinks
15:06:18  <andythenorth> simple
15:06:26  <andythenorth> “click here to upgrade this vehicle”
15:06:29  <supermop_> +1 for feature
15:06:31  <andythenorth> then take credit card details
15:06:36  <andythenorth> then run away
15:06:41  <andythenorth> really easy
15:06:54  <JGR_> and are the commits
15:07:01  <andythenorth> also simple griefing
15:07:26  <andythenorth> it’s a CB, so I could change the url arbitrarily
15:07:35  <andythenorth> such fun
15:07:46  <andythenorth> so that one stays open then
15:07:49  <andythenorth> such important feature
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15:07:59  <andythenorth> changing the hotkeys?
15:08:11  <JGR_> If I remember rightly, it checks which variables are checked in the varaction2, and if they're all on a whitelist and there are no callbacks the sprite ID is cached
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15:08:58  * andythenorth wonders
15:09:05  <andythenorth> won’t changing the hotkeys kind of piss people off?
15:09:14  <andythenorth> is there no way to over-ride them per player?
15:13:54  <_dp_> andythenorth, can change them in hotkeys.cfg
15:14:00  <andythenorth> hmm
15:14:25  <andythenorth> I am trying to find an objection to that :P
15:15:06  <andythenorth>  nah, none
15:15:11  <peter1138> i did something with caching and it made it slower :p
15:15:31  <andythenorth> where are liveries in newgrf spec?
15:16:01  <peter1138> cargo refits
15:16:06  <peter1138> subtypes
15:16:41  <andythenorth> so how does the union of available subtypes work then :|
15:16:44  <andythenorth> headfuck stuff
15:16:45  <peter1138> badly
15:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: (from memory) for each cargo there's a callback that defines the number of subtypes by repeatedly calling it with an increased number, and if it doesn't return a valid string it's the end of the list
15:19:42  <andythenorth> well it doesn’t work for George :)
15:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because the game calculates the intersection not the union
15:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> intersection by string-id
15:20:38  <andythenorth> well it’s not good enough
15:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you could calculate the union in the refit window, and when you select a non-universal subtype, then the selection at the top of the window could reflect this
15:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> by greying out or so
15:23:36  <andythenorth> also
15:23:50  <andythenorth> also
15:26:03  <V453000> which thing will the break break at line 6? :D ... does it break just the if, or the whole for cycle starting on line2?
15:26:16  <V453000> actually it makes no sense to have it
15:26:17  <V453000> nvm
15:27:02  <andythenorth> also
15:29:06  <V453000> so with default settings (using all but noact colours, cc1 and cc2 are used) atm vs
15:29:39  <V453000> and vs
15:30:34  <andythenorth> V453000: which one do you want me to say is better? o_O
15:30:40  <V453000> one is 32bpp
15:30:44  <V453000> the other is 8bpp
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15:31:26  <andythenorth> should I prefer one to other?
15:31:35  <V453000> not necessarily
15:31:45  <V453000> just demonstrating current state of teh converter
15:31:50  <andythenorth> 32bpp is better currently
15:31:59  <andythenorth> but only because of light temperature
15:32:02  <V453000> now I can just go and say 'disable this specific colour in this specific image'
15:32:04  <V453000> yes
15:32:10  <V453000> getting those beige colours is damn hard
15:32:20  <V453000> also I didn't know my landscape has any colour XD
15:33:01  <andythenorth> seems it does
15:36:11  <andythenorth> subtypes
15:36:13  <andythenorth> such a cluster fuck
15:37:30  <andythenorth> V453000 how do you do liveries?
15:37:37  <andythenorth> with like, date-sensitivity, and stuff
15:37:42  <andythenorth> and changing by engine
15:37:54  <andythenorth> and also allowing refits of power and stuff by livery
15:37:56  <V453000> I do random colours
15:38:05  <andythenorth> yes, but that’s not realistic
15:38:08  <V453000> even random shapes for some wagons
15:38:13  <V453000> yeah exactly :)
15:38:14  <andythenorth> also not realistic
15:38:14  <Wolf01> Eddi, what does the deluxe edition contains?
15:38:16  <V453000> it's just nice
15:38:35  <andythenorth> V453000 I don’t think you’re even trying properly
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15:39:17  * andythenorth wonders how to give all the historical model railroad sets the liveries they so badly want
15:39:29  <andythenorth> subtypes are an absolute disaster of a hack
15:39:45  <andythenorth> but all alternatives seem to just be ‘subtypes, renamed'
15:40:01  <andythenorth> because o/c, the livery can’t just be the sprites
15:40:20  <andythenorth> it also has to affect buy cost, run cost, power, capacity, speed, cargo etc
15:40:24  <V453000> I think they should just randomize sprite upon purchase
15:40:24  <andythenorth> because reality
15:40:33  <V453000> XD OK
15:40:48  <V453000> well you can randomize some of those things upon purchase too
15:41:53  <andythenorth> this dumb shit bothers me
15:42:02  <andythenorth> like, it should have a decent solution
15:42:31  <V453000> livery with so many changes sounds to me like it should just be a different vehicle id
15:42:34  <V453000> why not that way?
15:44:32  <andythenorth> ah fuck knows
15:44:51  * andythenorth is actually depressed by this
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15:46:27  <andythenorth> such 1st world problems :)
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15:47:26  <V453000> honestly I find this really dumb
15:47:33  <V453000> either it's just visual or it isn't
15:47:46  <V453000> if visual, randomize graphics or give them some other sense, purely graphically
15:47:53  <V453000> if not visual, have different ID
15:48:04  <andythenorth> nah all the shit has to be changed
15:48:07  <andythenorth> because...shit
15:48:16  <V453000> yeah that's the wrong approach
15:48:24  <andythenorth> yeah, but it’s the prevailing approach
15:48:36  <andythenorth> this isn’t being mean about any specific developer :P
15:48:44  <andythenorth> there are loads of people busy being wrong
15:48:59  <andythenorth> well
15:49:44  <andythenorth> there is nothing else to say
15:49:51  <andythenorth> :D
15:49:54  * andythenorth biab
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15:59:16  <andythenorth> van office
15:59:26  <andythenorth> and
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16:22:04  <peter1138> hi
16:22:35  <LordAro> o/
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16:29:55  <andythenorth> is phone?
16:30:14  * andythenorth biab eh
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16:38:26  <V453000> :> disabled gray, mauve and the metallic gray
16:39:03  <V453000> next up: ability to enable/disable individual IDs
16:39:21  <V453000> now it uses some stringcodes for colours in all shades each
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17:02:55  <V453000> aaaand explicitly allowed indexes 0-5 on top of disallowed grays, mauve, metal grays
17:07:38  <LordAro> oops
17:07:43  <LordAro> just segfaulted ottd
17:07:48  <LordAro> probably shouldn't do that
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17:12:45  <LordAro> oh wait, no, it segfaults trying to write the crash screenshot
17:12:49  <LordAro> amusing.
17:17:30  <Wolf01> I was thinking to move the global variables to a static class and make them private with accessors, but what could be the benefit?
17:17:42  <LordAro> very little
17:17:50  <LordAro> this isn't java
17:19:16  <LordAro> frosch123: quak
17:19:29  <Wolf01> Oh, quak
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17:27:30  <andythenorth> :o
17:27:33  <andythenorth> bannon is out
17:27:38  * andythenorth doesn’t normally politics
17:32:54  <frosch123> who is bannon?
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17:36:49  <frosch123> ah, another pawn
17:48:40  <andythenorth> apparently this wasn’t popular
17:48:44  <andythenorth> with the leader of the free world
17:52:10  <frosch123> ah, i thought you need to fire someone whenever something else causes trouble
17:52:44  <andythenorth>
17:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that was 2000 years ago
17:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably not
17:54:27  <frosch123> did you attend personally?
17:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: was bannon the guy who owned this alt-right/fake-news site?
17:55:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and who now basically said he thinks the people using that site are crazy?
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17:56:21  <LordAro> andythenorth: heh
17:57:54  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: not far off
17:58:06  <glx>
17:58:28  <supermop_> he was an editor at a dubious 'news' site that is essentially all alt-right etc
17:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i said?
17:59:01  <supermop_> i don't know if he explicitly said that about those readers though, as he seemed to hold basically their beliefs as well
17:59:39  <supermop_> unless he said it very recently, which would be news to me
17:59:59  <supermop_> he always came across as a bit of a raving zealot himself
18:02:15  <andythenorth> LordAro: :P
18:02:16  <andythenorth> nogfx
18:03:47  <LordAro> frosch123: if you can investigate how farm.o.o is setup, that'd be much appreciated
18:04:02  <LordAro> i'd imagine it's just got an ancient version of ogfx hidden away somewhere
18:04:20  <supermop_> i worry though that removing the obvious zealot to replace with a discrete zealot won't be much of an improvement
18:04:23  <andythenorth> we don’t ship ogfx because...?
18:04:44  <LordAro> bandwidth, iirc
18:05:15  <frosch123> the installer can download ogfx
18:05:25  <LordAro> not from the commandline, afaict
18:05:53  <frosch123> also ottd can download it itself when starting without baseset
18:06:10  <LordAro> in fact, i'm not sure how to trigger bootstrap, i'm just getting a "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
18:06:17  *** Gja has joined #openttd
18:07:06  <frosch123> with "from the commandline" you mean starting a server without gui?
18:07:36  <LordAro> that's what i'm trying, i.e. `make regression`
18:08:52  <frosch123> can you download nogfx?
18:09:07  <LordAro> it doesn't exist?
18:10:06  <frosch123>
18:10:20  <LordAro> huh
18:10:30  <LordAro> that doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere
18:10:39  <frosch123> possible :)
18:11:22  <frosch123> maybe intentional, so dummies do not enable it via the gui, and can't figure out how to disable it again
18:11:32  <LordAro> well indeed
18:12:06  <frosch123> but you can also apt-get install openttd-opengfx
18:12:46  <LordAro> but i thought there was some sort of builtin bootstrap process? why can't i trigger that?
18:13:02  <frosch123> it only has a gui
18:13:18  <frosch123> it shows some window: you are about to download stuff from the internet
18:13:31  <frosch123> ottd is very data-conservative
18:13:36  <frosch123> it doesn't phone home
18:13:38  <LordAro> yeah, but i can't even run that locally
18:13:45  <LordAro> it just stops with the above error
18:13:49  <frosch123> it worked at some point :)
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18:14:20  <frosch123> it works for me
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18:14:58  <Shoshonite> speaking of dummies, I have been compiling a newGRF and the number of orphaned sprites seems to increase by 1 everytime I compile. I am concerned my computer is caught to some terrible sprite death loop. Is this common? known? No observed conflicts yet
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18:15:53  <frosch123> do you change the filename of your source graphics every time?
18:16:13  <Shoshonite> nope
18:16:32  <frosch123> orphaned sprites are sprites which were once used by the grf, but are no longer and the source has not been updated either
18:16:33  <Shoshonite> I was messing with sprite location in the source
18:16:55  <frosch123> ah, true, that also causes orphanes ones
18:17:21  <Shoshonite> andythenorth told me not to do it, but I dont listen well
18:17:22  <frosch123> it reencodes the sprites with new offsets, but keeps the old sprites with the old offsets in the cache
18:17:44  <frosch123> anyway, they will vanish once you change a single real pixel
18:18:20  <Shoshonite> cool, so this is more a TNG transporter spliting accident and less the dead away team members problem.
18:19:19  * andythenorth has never seen this issue :)
18:19:35  <andythenorth> let’s close some more FS
18:19:42  <andythenorth> while we all wait for my deliveroo to arrive
18:19:55  <frosch123> food?
18:20:15  <andythenorth> yes
18:20:28  <andythenorth> it is
18:20:30  <andythenorth> do we care?
18:20:40  <Shoshonite> food keeps the meatself alive = good
18:22:32  <LordAro> i can't say i've ever noticed the builtin cursor being slow
18:22:50  <LordAro> it's a purely SDL thing, iirc, so if they're having trouble with ottd they'll be having trouble with a load of other stuff as well
18:23:03  <LordAro> that said, it's not uncommon to have an option to use the OS cursor
18:23:32  <andythenorth> my cursor is slow
18:23:37  <andythenorth> I’m used to it :P
18:24:21  <andythenorth> can I close this as ‘wall of text’?
18:24:23  <andythenorth> probably not
18:25:12  <LordAro> aircraft range has been implemented?
18:25:43  <frosch123> kind of, no idea whether someone plays with it
18:25:47  <frosch123> it's like airport noise
18:25:56  <LordAro> istr something using it
18:26:01  <LordAro> something pikka made, maybe?
18:26:09  <frosch123> yes, av8/9 does
18:26:26  <frosch123> no idea which version
18:26:40  <frosch123> possibly the newest one with the 3 planes
18:26:42  <Supercheese> airport noise is good feature
18:26:46  <Supercheese> airplane range is bad feature
18:27:25  <Supercheese> well, maybe only mediocre feature
18:27:27  <frosch123> LordAro: port to sdl2, use os cursor with our sprites
18:27:33  <LordAro> ;-;
18:28:10  <LordAro> ottd's rendering really doesn't port well to sdl2
18:30:08  <LordAro> omg
18:31:49  <frosch123> that's a private link
18:31:56  <andythenorth> there’s some crap about needing special orders for aircraft range
18:31:57  <LordAro> interesting
18:32:02  <andythenorth> and a special visual display of it
18:32:07  <andythenorth> can I just close all that?
18:32:23  <andythenorth> Supercheese: I closed one of your FS suggestions I think :)
18:32:25  <LordAro> how about this?
18:32:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: setting up aircraft orders is a pain
18:32:36  <Supercheese> yes, I believe you did
18:32:42  <Supercheese> and I believe I agreed
18:32:45  <andythenorth> I just click ‘go-to’ and choose an airport frosch123 :)
18:32:55  <andythenorth> Supercheese: you are in an ever-growing exclusive club ;)
18:33:28  <frosch123> LordAro: most seem to compile now, compared to yesterday
18:33:28  <Supercheese> the "There's a Patch for That™" club doesn't seem that exclusive :P
18:34:15  <frosch123> heh, the regression is apparently really fast if you do not need to scan 1400 grfs
18:36:19  <andythenorth> right
18:36:24  <andythenorth> this dies
18:36:36  <andythenorth> towns should have been newgrfed :)
18:36:49  <andythenorth> we don’t need so many town algorithms
18:40:22  <V453000> 0.0.3 plans: - migrate to blender, - rework postproduction pipeline, - redefine all sprites to different (more, smaller) filenames
18:40:28  <V453000> sounds like totally not redoing everyhing XD
18:40:56  <andythenorth> just redo everything
18:41:19  <supermop_> i like the suggestion to make plane crashes more spectacular
18:41:31  <V453000> haha mop
18:41:32  <supermop_> with fireball skidding down the runway
18:41:37  <andythenorth> it’s very low cost to like suggestions :)
18:41:48  <andythenorth> doesn’t make them likely to happen :)
18:42:40  <supermop_> plane crashes: reduced/none/all the time
18:42:58  <andythenorth> I just use the cheat
18:43:19  <supermop_> lets add planes crashing in mid air, or destroying property on the ground
18:43:48  <supermop_> or clipping the wings of other planes while taxiing to gate
18:44:05  <supermop_> wing clip should also result in fireball
18:44:32  <supermop_> also breakdowns should use the explosion instead of spark
18:44:41  <supermop_> smoke
18:45:16  <supermop_> ships exploding at sea for no reason
18:45:38  <andythenorth> I rejected rthat too
18:45:48  <supermop_> large ship has x% of crash when docking at small dock
18:46:00  <andythenorth> still true?
18:46:17  <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ :D
18:48:23  <peter1138> 2?
18:48:25  <LordAro> doesn't that predate NoAI?
18:48:40  <andythenorth> NFI :)
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18:51:32  <peter1138> hmm
18:51:34  <peter1138> i wonder
18:51:44  <peter1138> probably never made it :p
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18:53:55  <andythenorth> well OP doesn’t care
18:54:02  <andythenorth> probably just close it
18:54:05  * andythenorth thinks
18:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> cb18 for trains was never implemented
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18:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> only for stations, i think
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18:55:42  <andythenorth>
18:56:11  <andythenorth> so it’s TTDP only, or what?
18:56:14  <peter1138> i probably have a patch for it that'll never work because it predates noai
18:56:26  <andythenorth> sack it?  Nobody cares
18:56:35  <peter1138> basically it tells the ai which is best
18:56:38  <peter1138> but who cares
18:56:41  <andythenorth> why would I even do that?
18:56:52  <andythenorth> stupid grf authors trying to control even what the AI builds?
18:56:53  <peter1138> i assume noais choose themselves
18:57:11  <peter1138> some sets have special ai-only vehicles
18:57:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: ais are the better players
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18:57:18  <peter1138> so yeah, it won't work anyway
18:57:23  <frosch123> they can build historically correct consists
18:57:30  <peter1138> hehe
18:57:40  <andythenorth> ugh
18:57:53  * andythenorth welcomes our bot-based future civilisation
18:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the argument was always along the lines of "noai is more flexible, and real ais can figure this out from the stats anyway"
18:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but it would still be a useful hint, i think
18:58:41  <frosch123> yes, the problem only started when people claimed cb18 makes ais build R
19:00:09  <peter1138> it's pointless
19:00:33  <V453000> my ass isn't pointless, it has exactly 1 point
19:00:39  <peter1138> you'd need to rewrite any AI to use the feature as well
19:01:02  <peter1138> that's a singularity
19:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been easier 5 years ago :p
19:01:26  <peter1138> andythenorth, close it as incompatible with noai
19:01:51  <peter1138> and i doubt oz gives a shit these days anyway
19:01:56  <V453000> XD
19:02:04  <Eddi|zuHause> why does Ctrl+F4 not close tabs in firefox?
19:02:13  <peter1138> ^w does
19:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> who chose that?
19:03:07  * andythenorth doesn’t actually think grf authors are stupid :D
19:03:18  <frosch123> did ctrl+f4 work past win 3.1?
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19:03:49  <peter1138> andythenorth, who said they are?
19:04:03  <andythenorth> me
19:04:03  <V453000> I'm dumb as my ass
19:04:07  <peter1138> oh ok
19:04:16  <peter1138> it made sense with just one ai though
19:04:20  <peter1138> as a hint
19:04:23  <andythenorth> yup
19:04:26  <andythenorth> ancient history
19:04:29  <peter1138> yar
19:04:43  <andythenorth> probably the wiki is wrong eh
19:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i really don't remember...
19:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it was just the first key i tried
19:05:37  <andythenorth> what does it even mean? o_O
19:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and since ctrl+tab switches tabs, i thought crtl+f4 could close it
19:05:48  <andythenorth> doesn’t cb36 solve all this?
19:06:15  <V453000> ok idea, make everyhing red/orange/yellow
19:06:17  <peter1138> ^pgup / ^pgdn also does
19:06:23  <V453000> openttd has fucking amazing range of colours for that
19:06:31  <andythenorth> V453000: like a sunset? o_O
19:06:36  <V453000>
19:06:44  <V453000> can't really tell much difference in the fire parts
19:06:54  <andythenorth> V453000: Golden Hour
19:07:07  <V453000> that would require long shadows
19:07:10  <V453000> which means now
19:07:11  <V453000> no
19:07:11  <V453000> :>
19:07:29  <V453000> however fucking volcanic land of destruction with fire and lava everywhere isn't a bad idea
19:07:30  <V453000> gg
19:07:49  <V453000> btw you can see that the difference between the terrains is smaller now
19:07:55  <V453000> I changed the weights of colours
19:08:15  <V453000> had some dumb ass 'human eye correction' there which I believe doesn't work for shit
19:08:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: that's vehicles longer than 8/8
19:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: do you remember the mars expansion, where water was replaced with lava?
19:08:49  <frosch123> apparently it does not crash ttdp immediately
19:08:52  <frosch123> only if you know how
19:09:23  <V453000> of course Eddi I have played with it many times
19:09:35  <V453000> but the terrain itself isn't DEAD enough
19:10:42  <andythenorth> vehicles longer than 8/8 is…not good
19:10:45  <andythenorth> just no
19:11:09  <frosch123> V453000: maybe we need a april 1st grf, that swaps land with water sprites
19:11:20  <V453000> nice idea
19:11:24  <andythenorth> won’t implement for 2054?
19:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> finally a proper context for wetrails :p
19:11:50  <andythenorth> I didn’t ask many questions for that last 300 tickets I closed
19:11:58  <andythenorth> but now I’m into the legit / hard ones :)
19:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: negative values for "shorten vehicles" callback is definitely a no
19:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> plua, we have CETS now :p
19:13:01  <frosch123> lv5 was canceled because of that task
19:13:11  <frosch123> i think there was some drama
19:13:12  <V453000> CETS has graphics? :P
19:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not that many :p
19:13:58  <frosch123> V453000: eddi did not use red/orange/yellow, so it was bound to fail
19:14:25  <V453000> obviously
19:15:15  <andythenorth>  f8-ff overflows to negative?
19:15:25  <frosch123> in ttdp it does
19:15:32  * andythenorth is wading through this crap to try and close the ticket fairly
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19:15:38  <andythenorth> clearly it’s dead as a dodo
19:15:54  <frosch123> then you park the train on a horizontal/vertical track, and remove a piece of track under train
19:15:57  <andythenorth> actually I’ll just paste the same as the other ~50 tickets like this
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19:17:28  <LordAro> hmm
19:17:37  <LordAro> wonder if you can pull some sort of coverage data out of the regression tests
19:17:51  <andythenorth> there are tests? :O
19:18:47  <LordAro> as in, the ai regression thing
19:18:49  <andythenorth> err
19:18:50  <LordAro> it's sort of a test
19:18:50  <andythenorth> no?
19:19:02  <andythenorth> why would houses be allowed to modify road bits?
19:19:11  <andythenorth> I asked for ~identical feature once actually
19:19:55  <andythenorth> it’s a rejected pony
19:19:58  <andythenorth> for exact same case
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19:21:50  <andythenorth> the roadbit data isn’t provided by some 80+ var or something?
19:21:53  * andythenorth assumes not
19:23:09  <andythenorth> closed
19:27:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: is now a good time to post a bunch of FS for newgrf features? :|
19:27:37  <andythenorth> or should I save it up?
19:27:44  <LordAro> lol
19:27:50  <andythenorth> I want to mostly close them, but need to check I’m not being a fool
19:30:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: i am not a fan of adding newgrf features if noone is going to use/test it
19:30:53  <frosch123> also, i already have enough other patches
19:31:24  <V453000> it's not like I have yet utilized your awesome vehicle layers ;P
19:31:26  <V453000> iz on todo
19:31:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: but there is nothing wrong with grouping and colelcting stuff on some grfv10 page :p
19:32:24  <andythenorth> I don’t think we need this in the game
19:32:36  <andythenorth> (houses can refuse to accept cargo)
19:32:56  <andythenorth> I don’t see what this solves that can’t already be solved differently
19:33:08  <LordAro> that... is not as bad as i was expecting
19:33:14  <andythenorth> ^ I have made a crapload of building sprites, and they only get truncated or flicker when I do it wrong
19:33:15  <Alberth> +1 for close 2513
19:33:40  <andythenorth> is meh
19:33:54  <andythenorth> I don’t hate it, it’s arguably consistent to let cb36 change *everything*
19:34:29  <andythenorth> how you ‘refurbish’ a vehicle in game, I have no idea
19:34:38  <andythenorth> presumably some subtype refit bollocks :)
19:35:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: still want this? o_O
19:36:32  <Alberth> you auto-buy a new vehicle a little sooner I guess
19:36:57  * andythenorth leaves that open
19:37:06  <andythenorth> no rationale for closing it, except personal prejudice
19:37:13  <andythenorth> 2513 is closed
19:37:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has a patch for this? o_O
19:37:25  <andythenorth> ‘just use a bridge'
19:37:26  <andythenorth> :P
19:38:37  <Alberth> or a path-finder trick
19:38:53  <Alberth> but not really trivial, I think
19:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> meh, need a new mouse battery
19:39:56  <Alberth> Moving all that copper halfway across the map isn't that easy :p  (1650 t/month)
19:42:13  <Alberth> andy, maybe display production rate eg with copper refinery in IAHC, FIRS 3.0.0 alpha 4 ?
19:42:44  <LordAro> that's a bit better
19:42:53  <Alberth> now I just get a big load at the station, and a high production count at the end of the month
19:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, my road crossing patch should still be "up to date", and the main issue is still upgrading old savegames
19:43:53  <Alberth> LordAro:  lol :)
19:44:00  <LordAro> ikr :)
19:44:06  <andythenorth> does it fix the issue Eddi|zuHause ? O_O
19:44:14  <andythenorth> I just closed the ticket as unsolvable
19:44:16  <LordAro> AI integration "tests" aren't exactly the best thing in the world
19:44:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: production rate? o_O
19:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, sort of. but it will also allow rv to crash into trains right in front of them
19:44:54  <andythenorth> ha
19:45:07  <andythenorth> I see no solution when arvs are blocking a crossing
19:45:12  <andythenorth> other than stop the train
19:45:15  <andythenorth> which ain’t happening
19:45:23  <andythenorth> call it realism
19:45:29  <andythenorth> grade crossings are v. dangerous
19:45:37  <andythenorth> YouTube has evidence
19:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my patch will make a rv ignore red crossing if it's already on a crossing
19:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so rv will never be stuck between two crossings
19:46:01  <andythenorth> ok
19:46:14  <andythenorth> and if it’s in a queue of vehicles due to e.g. breakdown?
19:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's fucked...
19:46:32  <Alberth>
19:46:36  <andythenorth>
19:46:48  <LordAro> Alberth: surprisingly easy to get to work though, just ./configure CXXFLAGS="--coverage" LDFLAGS="--coverage" && make && make regression, then pull the data out with lcov
19:46:59  <andythenorth> Alberth: production is ‘maximum’ :D
19:47:09  <Alberth> LordAro: bice!
19:47:18  <andythenorth> obiwan
19:47:21  <Alberth> andy, you think so?  :p
19:47:32  <Alberth> nah oniwan  :p
19:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have never considered breakdowns while developing that patch
19:48:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: I am open to changing that industry text, but we tried lots of variants
19:48:19  * andythenorth looks if any screenshots exist
19:48:44  <V453000> dat nuts
19:49:32  <andythenorth> such nuts
19:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicles stuck due to breakdown will need more elaborate traffic handling
19:49:42  <LordAro> deez nuts?
19:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which i don't think the game is ready for
19:52:19  <andythenorth> indeed :)
19:52:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: this one was…interesting
19:53:08  <andythenorth> this was the closest viable prototype
19:53:22  <andythenorth> there were 16 options tried :P
19:56:32  <Alberth> oh, if it says "supplied"at both, it is at highest production
19:58:27  <andythenorth> yes
19:58:39  <andythenorth> but I _could_ add something to the hint text when it’s max
19:58:47  <andythenorth> like “(achieved)"
19:58:52  <andythenorth> or even just a tick symbol
19:59:14  <andythenorth> or change the text
19:59:25  <andythenorth> “Continue delivering blah blah”
20:00:10  <Alberth> (supplied, rate higher)
20:00:27  <Alberth> (supplied, rate highest)
20:00:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: can you open FIRS feature request :P
20:01:19  <Alberth> ok
20:01:54  <andythenorth>
20:02:00  <andythenorth> my project was so neat and tidy too :P
20:02:09  <Alberth> wow, just 4 open issues :)
20:02:50  <andythenorth> winning
20:02:51  <andythenorth> somehow
20:02:54  <andythenorth> so this?
20:02:55  <andythenorth>
20:03:23  <andythenorth> newgrf authors need to provide 2 buy menu sprites, one for each orientation?
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20:09:59  <Alberth> just draw it in the other direction, would be my guess
20:10:20  <Alberth> ph, buy menu has separate sprites of course
20:10:26  <Alberth> hmm, tricky
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20:10:46  <V453000> LMFAO
20:10:58  <Alberth> most authors won't make 2 sprites I think
20:11:08  <V453000> yeah fuck that :D
20:11:21  <andythenorth> option to provide one, fall back to default flipped
20:11:27  <andythenorth> oh we probably can’t actually flip sprites in game?
20:11:29  * LordAro ponders what else to do
20:11:33  <andythenorth> we have nothing to do transforms?
20:11:35  <V453000> or you can just flip the sprite? :D
20:11:35  <V453000> haha
20:11:39  <Alberth> draw backward :p
20:11:52  <andythenorth> I bet OpenTTD has nothing to do x-scale -1
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20:12:33  <Alberth> in SDL where you blit your own pixels?  wouldn't bet on that :p
20:13:32  <andythenorth> easy patch? o_O
20:13:41  <andythenorth> doesn’t matter if the lighting is wrong
20:13:55  <andythenorth> in fact there was a request I saw for RTL lighting to come from left anyway :P
20:13:57  <andythenorth> so it’s fine
20:14:12  <andythenorth> RTL should probably flip *all* sprites
20:14:23  <LordAro> haha
20:15:15  <Alberth> we should just paint the entire screen backwards :p
20:16:00  <andythenorth> I considered that
20:16:11  <andythenorth> do the glyphs flip though :P
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20:18:07  <andythenorth> oh you poor second-class non OS X users
20:18:15  <andythenorth> you don’t have scrolling :)
20:18:24  <andythenorth> for once, something is actually better on the OS X port
20:18:49  <peter1138> mouse wheel... is for zooming
20:19:59  <andythenorth> it doesn’t actually work on OS X anyway
20:20:08  <andythenorth> borked
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20:24:35  <peter1138> nothing works on os x
20:29:01  <andythenorth> NML works
20:29:57  <LordAro> looks like nothing actually uses h_wheel / v_wheel anywhere anyway
20:30:54  <LordAro> possibly
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20:32:02  <andythenorth> I haven’t imagined vehicles tunneling in roadstops have I?
20:32:02  <andythenorth>
20:34:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tunneling is a workaround, not a solution
20:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it takes way too long, and only a few vehicles tunnel at a time
20:34:51  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, patch in 3051 doesn't work anymore anyway, even adapting it to the current code
20:34:55  <LordAro> recommend close
20:35:01  <andythenorth> LordAro: you have close rights no?
20:35:04  <LordAro> oh, wait
20:35:08  <LordAro> those buttons weren't there before
20:35:09  <LordAro> :)
20:35:13  <andythenorth> close some :)
20:35:23  <andythenorth> the worst that can happen is kittens die
20:35:37  <LordAro> i can close as "out of date", right? :p
20:35:40  <LordAro> that seems appropraite
20:35:47  <andythenorth> seems fair
20:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would reject the rejection on grounds of "invalid" as invalid
20:35:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: isn’t building routes to prevent roadstop contention part of the game?
20:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no
20:36:19  <andythenorth> is it a goal to fix?
20:36:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a few games with AI that builds roadstops
20:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: watch epic traffic jams
20:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one problem to solve is bus A waiting at a roadstop, and bus B of a different line/company which will not stop at that roadstop trying to pass
20:37:55  <andythenorth> I could screenshot that in my games, frequently ;)
20:38:05  <andythenorth> I am familiar with the issue
20:38:10  <andythenorth> I just think it’s non-solvable
20:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the other problem to solve is multiple busses of the same route trying to load at the same stop
20:38:19  <andythenorth> also ARVs
20:38:23  <andythenorth> and oncoming traffic
20:38:33  <andythenorth> and the desire to have one way stops
20:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> these are like 3 separate issues, and each warrant an individual solution
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20:39:48  <andythenorth> I shall await the closure of the issue
20:40:00  <andythenorth> as ‘implemented’ :)
20:40:25  <andythenorth> it is only 10 years old, maybe it will be done by 2027 :)
20:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: start with overtaking on bridges :p
20:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> (overtaking can start before the bridge and continue, but not start on the bridge)
20:41:41  <andythenorth> I don’t play much MP, but this seems like nonsense?
20:41:45  <andythenorth> like, why?
20:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theory, a special user could have "world/deity" mode (like gamescript)
20:44:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Might be useful for fixing deliberate obstructions, but just killing the company should work
20:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but this would be separate from "spectator"
20:44:54  <_dp_> andythenorth, nah it's kind of useful
20:45:11  <_dp_> no idea what he means by set as admin tho
20:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: think of creative mode in minecraft
20:45:40  <andythenorth> why not just join the company?
20:45:47  <andythenorth> and delete stuff
20:46:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, it solves most of the problems
20:46:12  <_dp_> but doesn't help with indusries
20:46:18  <_dp_> or if company has no money
20:46:19  <andythenorth> magic bulldozer :P
20:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> cheats don't work in mp
20:46:38  <andythenorth> deity then
20:46:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, I think I'm the only one running servers with magic buldozer :p
20:46:48  * andythenorth leaves it open
20:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> convert all cheats to deity commands?
20:46:58  <andythenorth> it’s a crap suggestion though, if the request is deity
20:47:11  <andythenorth> as in, the actual FS issue is not useful
20:47:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sometimes people don't know what they're asking for
20:47:38  <andythenorth> I know
20:47:55  <_dp_> also I thing I miss as admin is to grow towns
20:47:57  <andythenorth> if we want to get value from FS suggestions, we should group and rewrite them
20:48:04  <_dp_> coz some bastards like to kill towns :(
20:48:07  <LordAro> 2475 - uh
20:48:14  * andythenorth has actual paying customers who make suggestions
20:48:36  <andythenorth> nearly always useful, but often what is asked for isn’t quite what is needed eh
20:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those are the worst. because they're paying, they think they have power
20:49:17  <andythenorth> they’re fine, we earn our money by translating what they ask for into a product that actually does what they need
20:49:21  <andythenorth> mostly
20:49:37  <V453000> omg, trying to be proper and use argparse :D
20:49:40  <V453000> probably a bad idea
20:49:41  <andythenorth> _dp_: you want SE tools, but during game?
20:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: uhm, cargodest is dead?
20:49:54  <LordAro> quite
20:50:04  <andythenorth> this is…cute
20:50:10  <andythenorth> not happening though
20:50:28  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, some of the SE won't hurt)
20:50:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, never actually used SE though xD
20:50:50  <andythenorth> me neither except to test patches :P
20:51:07  * _dp_ wonders if SE is still broken in citymania client
20:51:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we have settings to remember faces and stuff, could that also save company colours?
20:51:38  <LordAro> i feel like 2831 was fixed quite some time ago with alberth's gui rewrite
20:52:19  <andythenorth> I don’t understand 2831
20:52:36  <_dp_> oh, I want 4115 too ^^
20:52:42  <andythenorth> I am closing it
20:52:46  <_dp_> with some fallbacks if it's already taken
20:52:47  <andythenorth> no-one’s going to patch that
20:52:56  <FLHerne> I want that too
20:52:57  <Wolf01> Also I want 4115
20:53:05  <andythenorth> nah, none of you will patch it
20:53:07  <FLHerne> (but dark blue)
20:53:09  <_dp_> so, who's patching? ;)
20:53:19  <andythenorth> also, a current goal is to reduce Advanced Settings
20:53:21  <andythenorth> so why add more?
20:53:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: i think there's some text that's overflowing and being hidden in the money stats page
20:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the issue is 2394323 is abbreviated as 239... instead of 2.39M
20:53:39  <_dp_> hardest part of the patch is probably ui
20:53:39  <andythenorth> I haven’t hit the close button yet.  Still writing a nice rejection :P
20:53:51  <LordAro> it occurs to me that i don't remember how to get the cheat menu up
20:53:55  <FLHerne> "reducing advanced settings" isn't a sane goal
20:53:56  <LordAro> so i can't test this easily
20:53:58  <Wolf01> Not as a setting, just saved as preset in config and always loaded on new games
20:54:09  <andythenorth> LordAro: ctrl-alt-c
20:54:14  <FLHerne> Removing/hiding the ones that no sane person has any reason to change is
20:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, i feel like we discussed this in the past
20:54:18  <supermop_> i would 100% use a default CC
20:54:25  <Wolf01> Manager face is already saved, why not colour and name?
20:54:34  <Wolf01> And automatically load them
20:55:01  <FLHerne> ^(better idea anyway)
20:55:03  <andythenorth> LordAro: I can’t trigger truncation or overflow
20:55:04  <supermop_> i guess the benefit is when testing my grfs i can see if they look shitty with cream or some other color i never use
20:55:08  <_dp_> yeah, name too
20:55:40  <supermop_> but in TTO i played green for every game for 2 years, then orange
20:55:44  <_dp_> I'm doing webchat for citymania and it's quite annoying that company name is set only some time after it creation
20:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a currency with factor >1000
20:56:00  <supermop_> for OTTD i played orange for every game until about 2012, then light blue since
20:56:12  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, me neither
20:56:16  <LordAro> gonna close as fixed
20:56:28  <_dp_> and I mean even default name, so when create action arrives it's just "Unnamed"
20:56:47  <andythenorth> I’m up to 13 digits
20:56:56  <V453000> omfg my shit works
20:57:02  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it autoresizes now?
20:57:08  <LordAro> yeah
20:57:13  <FLHerne> Have you tried making the window absurdly narrow or something?
20:57:20  <andythenorth> not resizable
20:57:26  <FLHerne> (android phones, portrait?)
20:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not the same thing
20:58:01  <andythenorth> V453000: \o/
20:58:17  <andythenorth> so I leave 4115 open?
20:58:35  <andythenorth> I had a nice rejection written :P
20:58:35  <Wolf01> Yes
20:58:38  <V453000> =D I wanted ot have it finished this weekend
20:58:42  <V453000> looks like a good friday
20:58:50  <andythenorth> ach 12 more to close
20:58:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's too good to be closed :p
20:58:59  <andythenorth> :P
20:59:16  <Wolf01> _dp_: want to team up for 4115?
20:59:30  <andythenorth>
20:59:39  <andythenorth> UI to select the industry layout?
21:00:00  <andythenorth> my comment is outdated
21:00:29  <supermop_> souns handy?
21:00:43  * supermop_ should finish trams
21:01:06  <supermop_> going to be riding the hiroden in two weeks
21:01:23  <supermop_> if i don't get irradiated before then
21:01:24  <andythenorth> people really need to choose the industry layout?
21:01:25  <andythenorth> really?
21:01:38  <_dp_> Wolf01, eh, well, not sure about teeming but I may do a patch someday
21:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in SE it might be valid
21:02:12  * andythenorth leaves it
21:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> think ECS tourist centers
21:02:33  <andythenorth> location history?
21:02:38  <Wolf01> Just fund and remove the industry until you get the layout you want
21:02:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would have been useful for me, like, twice ever
21:03:27  <supermop_> andythenorth: not really
21:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some game (settlers 2?) had a button where you could go back to the place you were before you clicked on the message
21:03:35  <FLHerne> e.g. this was mildly annoying IIRC
21:03:54  <andythenorth> FLHerne: worth it though :D
21:04:00  <FLHerne> I had to keep blowing things up and moving objects around until it looked right
21:04:06  <supermop_> but like it is a pain sometimes when you fund an industry and it chooses some oblong layout that blocks your planned rail line
21:04:23  <andythenorth> tough :)
21:04:31  <andythenorth> lemons, lemonade
21:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: you can force the layout by placing things in the way
21:04:40  <andythenorth> what is this for?
21:04:54  <andythenorth> when I (rarely) play coop MP, I can admin the server
21:04:59  <andythenorth> via irc
21:05:12  *** Gja has quit IRC
21:05:19  <Wolf01> Rcon via client
21:05:37  <andythenorth> how the hell do I admin server from my client?
21:05:40  <andythenorth> there’s no UI for it
21:05:53  <andythenorth> advanced settings are applied to my client, not the server
21:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the request is to add such an UI?
21:06:17  <_dp_> location history is awesome, I though about doing it too. not quite easy to do it right though
21:06:31  <andythenorth> wtf counts as a ‘location’?
21:06:34  <andythenorth> it’s not http
21:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: viewport
21:06:51  <andythenorth> if I have laggy map scroll, do I get a new location every 16 tiles?
21:07:10  <andythenorth> or only if I click ‘location’ in some windows?
21:07:15  <andythenorth> and is a moving train a location?
21:07:17  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, getting proper locations is a hard part.
21:07:44  <_dp_> andythenorth, but having something to just between parts of map would be very nice
21:07:48  <supermop_> lets play contrarian arguments to prevent andy from closing any issues
21:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> if ((not right-click pressed) and (distance to last location > x) then new_location
21:08:05  <andythenorth> I am happy to have counter arguments
21:08:12  <andythenorth> I closed all the easy ones
21:08:15  <andythenorth> these are hard
21:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> is probably terrible :p
21:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> X should be in the order of one screen size
21:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and right-click should cover other means of scrolling (arrow keys)
21:09:08  * _dp_ has a system for trusted clients to change settings
21:09:15  <_dp_> nobody uses it sadly :p
21:09:21  <andythenorth> :)
21:09:39  <andythenorth>
21:09:42  <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, actions like clicking "jump to <location>" buttons should create a new location for before and after the jump
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21:10:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that seems totally non-controversial ;)
21:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> again, considering the X value
21:11:36  <andythenorth> is this solved?
21:11:38  * andythenorth can’t tell
21:11:50  <andythenorth> I don’t play MP much, but sometimes it shows me last-joined server in lobby
21:12:08  <LordAro> i'd say so
21:12:38  <andythenorth> it ends on a thanks, so either massive sarcasm, or resolved
21:12:45  <andythenorth> LordAro: one for you ;)
21:13:01  <LordAro> you already pointed that at me :p
21:13:18  <LordAro> and i already told you it's basically impossible with distros that .gz the zip
21:13:24  <LordAro> and put it in various random locations
21:13:37  <andythenorth> let me paste that on the ticket
21:13:47  <LordAro> ;-;
21:14:14  <andythenorth> rejecting
21:14:22  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I lost the internet
21:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that issue is fun... we constantly complain that people don't read the readme, but at the same time we debate whether it makes sense to make the readme more accessible
21:14:31  <Wolf01> Netflix stopped working
21:14:37  <Wolf01> Web pages not loading
21:14:41  <Wolf01> Only irc works
21:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sounds like dns issue?
21:14:54  <Wolf01> No
21:15:03  <Wolf01> More like >5s ping
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21:15:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s great eh :D
21:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> time ripples from last weeks weather?
21:15:39  <LordAro> there are so many issues that make me go "surely that's implemented" and then i check and find it isn't
21:15:49  <andythenorth> yeah
21:15:50  <Wolf01> No, just my ISP waiting to get nuked
21:16:05  <Wolf01> I should phone them and make them aware of their problem
21:16:20  <andythenorth> 8 more to find and close
21:17:18  <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you know we'll open at least 1 task every time the counter gets lower than 500?
21:17:36  <Wolf01> And all with valid stuff
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21:18:12  <andythenorth> the point here is to get it to 100
21:18:18  <andythenorth> and then open valid tasks
21:20:18  <V453000> I would never expect I would be happy when obtaining something like this
21:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: reminds me when i first played with 256 colour mode in pascal
21:21:14  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:21:36  <V453000> haha
21:21:47  <V453000> now I just need to fix that blue indent
21:21:58  <andythenorth> nice
21:24:27  <andythenorth> ?
21:24:38  <andythenorth> stations could just be railtype agnostic when building??
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21:25:22  <LordAro> that would be better UI, i feel
21:25:45  <LordAro> unless... can you have stations that are fixed to a particular rail type?
21:25:51  <andythenorth> not afaik
21:26:07  <andythenorth> they’re independent parts of newgrf spec
21:26:24  <_dp_> Laedek, vactube should probably have it's own stations
21:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> potentially they could look different based on railtype
21:26:28  <supermop_> there is provision for different station styles by railtype
21:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think you cannot restrict the railtype
21:26:38  <supermop_> like vanilla monorail and maglev
21:26:46  <supermop_> which i always found stupid
21:27:05  <andythenorth> can’t close that one then
21:27:14  <supermop_> should be able to have maglev tracks in the old building and vis-versa
21:27:18  <Eddi|zuHause> do vanilla stations change look if you convert the railtype?
21:27:23  <supermop_> yes
21:27:42  <supermop_> so seems like it wouldn't be an issue?
21:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably is awkward if you convert only half the station
21:28:08  <supermop_> already is akward when overbuilding half the station
21:28:20  <LordAro> s/awkward/amusing
21:28:30  <supermop_> and suddenly your tensile roof has notion to give it tension
21:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if the question was whether overbuilding an existing track/station should ignore which tracktype you have selected in the gui, then yes, i'm for that
21:28:54  <supermop_> new disaster: train crashed into collapsing station roof
21:29:10  <andythenorth> ping pong orders?
21:29:37  <supermop_> probably a better way to do that but interesting enough idea
21:29:57  <supermop_> B-A might take longer than A-B due to hills or whatever
21:30:08  <supermop_> so not that useful if you timetable
21:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a valid problem, but not an easy solution
21:30:13  * andythenorth often wanted them for ships on long routes
21:30:25  <supermop_> and saving the work in timetabling seems like a big part of the draw
21:30:26  <andythenorth> copy, paste, shuffle, reverse?
21:30:37  <andythenorth> would have to be able to select a range of orders
21:30:40  <supermop_> copy paste orders would be better
21:30:44  <supermop_> yeah
21:30:50  <andythenorth> -shuffle
21:30:55  <andythenorth> why did I type ‘shuffle'
21:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "auto-fill return trip" button
21:31:04  <andythenorth> request is not for random ping-pong orders :P
21:31:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
21:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> will create sort-of "implicit" entries
21:31:15  <andythenorth> it’s just a convenience method
21:31:23  <andythenorth> if only we had client-side UI scripting :P
21:31:42  <andythenorth> I think a lot of orders crap could be solved with client-side UI scripting
21:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'd leave it open
21:31:52  <LordAro> 5141 seems closeable?
21:32:01  <andythenorth> nobody would use it of course, just like nobody uses the two scripting layers on the mac
21:32:26  <andythenorth> I wondered if the text could wrap
21:32:34  <andythenorth> I have NFI how the UI works
21:32:42  <LordAro> *magic*
21:32:43  <LordAro> mostly
21:32:53  <andythenorth> close it
21:33:02  <andythenorth> ‘per Alberth’s comment’ or something
21:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that sounds like it's already solved with one of the various rewrites that window got?
21:33:40  <andythenorth> V453000: do you still want this? I think it sucks, for the record :)
21:33:57  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: that's possibly true as well
21:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: anyway, even if it's not, the proper solution would be line-wrap
21:34:45  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ah, no, apparently not
21:35:30  <andythenorth> hmm,
21:35:49  <LordAro> fine, 5141 can stay
21:36:02  <andythenorth> 5197 I’m tempted to say ‘get in the sea'
21:36:08  <V453000> I tihnk it makes more sense than sending all trains to depot right now
21:36:15  <V453000> but if it's a problem then meh
21:36:17  <andythenorth> 5197 seems really demanding, faceted crap
21:36:24  <andythenorth> V453000: join the winning side
21:36:29  <andythenorth> close FS issues
21:36:47  <V453000> 'meh
21:36:50  <V453000> 'then :P
21:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a valid request, but that window is already pretty cramped with features/buttons
21:37:09  <andythenorth> yes
21:37:14  <andythenorth> and magic hotkeys and so on
21:37:17  <andythenorth> so not a goal
21:37:23  <andythenorth> 'orders needs a rewrite’
21:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so make an "order UI rewrite" task and mark this as "depends upon"?
21:39:14  <andythenorth> I’d soon make a scriptable UI task
21:39:27  <andythenorth> and leave the implementation of all the faceted stuff to individual players
21:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> make "order gui rewrite" depend on that, then :p
21:39:43  <andythenorth> well played
21:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think "offload everything to the player" is a good approach
21:40:45  <andythenorth> only the faceted stuff
21:41:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make something scriptable, you need a way to easily distribute the scripts
21:41:13  <andythenorth> yes
21:41:15  <andythenorth> bananaramas
21:41:43  <andythenorth> and if there are scripts that ~everyone uses, maybe the affordance gets folded into core
21:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but then you need an easy way to access the scripts
21:41:50  <_dp_> just let newgrfs do it :p
21:42:00  <andythenorth> that is a car crash idea :P
21:42:04  <_dp_> then you can tell "write newgrfs" for ui requests too
21:42:15  <andythenorth> it could be done :(
21:42:22  <andythenorth> it would not be good
21:42:35  <LordAro> i want to close 5115, but it's the only reference to the fluidsynth patch, which would be useful
21:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and opposing to game/ai scripts, players need to be able to enable/disable lots of ui scripts simultaneously
21:43:08  <andythenorth> they’re independent, and installable
21:43:20  <andythenorth> they appear in lists (drop downs), on specific windows
21:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> are they really?
21:43:27  <andythenorth> you select one, it executres
21:43:29  <andythenorth> -r
21:43:39  * andythenorth is making it up somewhat
21:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dropdowns? stupid
21:43:51  <andythenorth> based on all the scripting support in other apps that I never use
21:44:02  <andythenorth> how do you choose which script to run if not a dropdown?
21:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to have the script define the button layout
21:44:15  <andythenorth> I wondered about that too
21:44:18  <andythenorth> that’s v2 :P
21:44:24  <LordAro> anyone got any thoughts on 4858?
21:44:28  <andythenorth> nice number
21:44:40  <LordAro> i do seem to keep picking the nice numbers
21:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and give it arbitrary control of what happens on button click
21:45:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am +1, write a spec? O_O
21:45:21  <andythenorth> or even o_O
21:45:34  <andythenorth> LordAro: ‘use the admin’ port seems a good answer
21:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't want windows-macro-style "click on this, then click on that" scripts
21:45:41  <andythenorth> and it’s > 5 years old
21:46:03  <andythenorth> so actual scriptable UI, that adds UI elements
21:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: port the game to QT, use their script engine :p
21:46:20  <LordAro> andythenorth: aye
21:46:21  <_dp_> just don't allow unprotected companies :p
21:46:21  <andythenorth> crazy, but why not?
21:46:37  <andythenorth> close that, 4 left to get to 500
21:46:50  <andythenorth> if we rejected Wolf01’s patches...
21:46:53  <andythenorth> that would be 2 gone
21:47:16  <andythenorth> A) wtf is this?  B) actually this is why I never use conditional orders
21:47:19  <Wolf01> I could always reopen them >:)
21:47:23  <andythenorth> conditional orders are stupid
21:47:30  <andythenorth> trains going round in circles
21:48:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think i requested that same feature
21:48:28  <andythenorth> add a +1 :)
21:48:39  <andythenorth> isn’t this “Don’t use broken AI”
21:48:53  <andythenorth> I can feel the pain, but really, core isn’t going to be able to help
21:49:09  <V453000> 2min 29s for bridges of 16384 x 3200 :)
21:49:11  <V453000> not too bad
21:49:17  <andythenorth> what was it before/
21:49:18  <andythenorth> ?
21:49:24  <V453000> I'd guess about 20min
21:49:32  <V453000> will test with old script tomorrow
21:49:38  <Wolf01> andythenorth: after a lot of trials I concluded the best  option was to set the vehicle at "load if available" and set the time in the timetable, just for loading
21:49:57  <andythenorth> that’s the only use for timetables, no?
21:50:02  <andythenorth> partial load orders
21:50:07  <Wolf01> Yes, I think
21:50:18  <andythenorth> they’re just badly named, and in the wrong place in the UI
21:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the scenario i used in my request was: "Goto A (unload all, wait for X days), Goto A (load)" for end-stations so the cargo does not needlessly age
21:50:44  <Wolf01> The problem is: if there is no cargo -> wait 10 days, but if there is cargo -> load and start immediately
21:50:52  <andythenorth> ha nice tactics Eddi|zuHause
21:50:57  <Wolf01> Timetable + full load didn't work
21:51:05  <andythenorth> the problem is worrying about this stuff too much
21:51:15  <andythenorth> if you want 75% load order
21:51:23  <andythenorth> build a 75t train, not 100t train
21:51:35  <andythenorth> it’s like somebody made a fundamental error
21:52:00  <Wolf01> The problem isn't really "I want 75%" but "at least 75%"
21:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've had issues on ship->train transfer stations, where the option was either to have 95% loaded trains wait ages for the next ship to arrive, or have 0% loaded trains leave
21:52:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: me too :)
21:52:28  <andythenorth> I have often wanted partial load orders
21:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this conditional order would solve that
21:52:39  <andythenorth> I am just trying to persuade myself otherwise
21:53:00  <andythenorth> “orders need a rewrite"
21:53:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "goto A (load if available); if load = 0% goto 1; goto B"
21:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it doesn't need a rewrite
21:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just leaving the station should check whether the next station is the same
21:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (ca. 10loc)
21:53:56  <LordAro> i think 5837 is valid
21:54:10  <andythenorth> oh
21:54:12  <LordAro> i've certainly wanted to mass delete signs before (although not as many as in their case)
21:54:12  <andythenorth> I closed it :)
21:54:17  <LordAro> ;-;
21:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i looked into it once
21:54:30  <andythenorth> UI script :P
21:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't remember why i got stuck
21:54:39  <LordAro> some sort of tile selection would do
21:54:45  <andythenorth> ‘open signs window’, ‘select all’, ‘delete’
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21:54:51  <LordAro> haha
21:55:20  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm gonna reopen, i think
21:55:21  <LordAro> :>
21:55:24  <andythenorth> for sign in sign list
21:55:27  <perk11> andythenorth, What could be done there is splitting those translations
21:55:27  <andythenorth> click sign
21:55:30  <andythenorth> click delete
21:55:55  <_dp_> mass deleting signs needs network command
21:56:56  <andythenorth> perk11: I know, but Rubidium said no 7 years ago, and nothing has changed since :)
21:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that gs cannot loop over all signs (independent of owner) seems like a missing feature
21:57:27  <LordAro> adding 30 extra strings is the only feasible solution, and that's just not desirable at all
21:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe signs should be cleared on company bankrupcy?
21:58:17  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "dead" signs probably have some historical value?
21:58:19  <LordAro> maybe?
21:58:26  <andythenorth> blah
21:58:30  <LordAro> although i'm struggling to think of anything right now
21:59:24  <perk11> andythenorth: Well he couldn't believe the facts 7 years ago, but there is still no good translation for both flying and riding
21:59:30  <perk11> :-)
21:59:53  <andythenorth> I can re-open it, but it won’t get done
21:59:57  <andythenorth> it will just be open
22:00:03  <perk11> It will give me hope
22:00:06  <andythenorth> ok
22:00:09  <perk11> Just kidding
22:00:11  <andythenorth> hope is not a strategy :)
22:00:13  <perk11> Do what you think is right
22:00:23  <andythenorth> thanks
22:00:41  <LordAro> perk11: i'd imagine it's the sort of thing where if you can demonstrate that it would benefit more than one language, it might get done
22:00:45  <LordAro> but otherwise... probably not
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22:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tbh, rubidiums statement sounds more like an excuse than a reason
22:01:15  <andythenorth> I don’t find fragmenting translations a big deal
22:01:28  <andythenorth> but then again for OpenTTD, I’m privileged :P
22:01:31  <andythenorth> I have the base lang
22:01:33  <perk11> LordAro: I see, don't know other languages that it would benefit, but there should be some
22:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the issue certainly came up in german language as well
22:01:53  <andythenorth> but I write UI code for translated web apps, and I often deliberately split strings
22:02:03  <andythenorth> even though it costs more money when we get them translated
22:02:08  <andythenorth> we get a better result
22:02:25  <_dp_> LordAro, likely also true for belarusian and ukranian, though I'm not entirely sure
22:02:37  <andythenorth> sometimes the translation varies by context, even though word is same in English
22:02:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> problem gets worse by english being very simplified grammar
22:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (terrible grammar in that sentence)
22:04:22  <andythenorth>
22:05:15  <perk11> Yay!
22:06:41  <andythenorth> is GS not just too fricking slow for this?
22:06:45  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> (terrible grammar in that sentence) <- it's so simple you can throw here words like that and still understand it :P
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22:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but that is sort of true for any language
22:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: lots of redundance in language
22:07:38  <andythenorth> I have no idea what this is supposed to be about
22:09:04  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, GS the way it is now is not suited for callbacks at all
22:09:16  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's too slow even for its own commands
22:09:44  <LordAro> andythenorth: apparently the UFO can pick a vehicle stopped (or is currently) in a depot
22:09:48  <andythenorth> Zuu is trying to suggest alternatives
22:10:00  <andythenorth> but the OP’s request is not implementable
22:10:03  <LordAro> i'd probably call 5868 a bug, actually
22:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: in the early days of computing, Shannon (who basically invented the "compression" field) ran an experiment and wrote a sentence on the wall, abruptly ending it halfway through and check whether the people could finish it for him. by evaluating whether that finishing was correct, he concluded that for every letter, there's about 1 bit of information in the english language
22:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so all the rest is redundancy
22:10:50  <Wolf01> :)
22:12:28  <LordAro> 5309 - won't implement?
22:12:30  <Wolf01> He was right, since every letter could be or couldn't be right for that position
22:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> (that is basically why text files can be compressed really well)
22:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that sounds so fake-news-y :p
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22:14:18  <andythenorth> 5309 - dunno
22:14:33  <andythenorth> I’ve dm-ed george asking him if all his issues are still valid / wanted
22:14:36  <andythenorth> he has 49 or so
22:14:45  <LordAro> fair
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22:17:09  <_dp_> 5697 reminded me it's a super easy to do patch that allows/denies vehicles for specific companies
22:17:20  <_dp_> bitmask is already there so all it needs is GS api
22:17:24  <_dp_> and network command
22:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i suggested giving GS control over that bitmask
22:18:36  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I'm sure I suggested it too xD
22:18:44  <LordAro> andythenorth: omg, 501
22:19:06  <andythenorth> mouse pointer?
22:19:25  * andythenorth trying to make sense of
22:19:30  <andythenorth> which seems to descend into argument
22:19:37  <LordAro> andythenorth: no, the number of issues :p
22:19:40  <andythenorth> ha
22:19:44  * andythenorth dense
22:19:51  <andythenorth> 19 minutes past bedtime
22:19:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: close, i think
22:20:10  <andythenorth> surely this is an OS thing?
22:20:29  <LordAro> any solution would be very platform specific, and SDL doesn't really do it (even on v2, iirc)
22:20:32  * andythenorth thought window/canvas management was handled by OS
22:21:15  <LordAro> it varies per OS
22:21:50  <andythenorth> those should probably be closed as ‘not under OpenTTD control’ :P
22:21:59  <andythenorth> anyone who argues differently can provide patches
22:22:01  <glx> it's also driver dependant I think
22:22:02  <LordAro> and "no sane cross-platform solution"
22:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> re 4637: i think the solution is to have "detachable" viewports
22:22:37  <andythenorth> is nonsense
22:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have two separate windows (of possibly different sizes)
22:22:50  <andythenorth> 2733 can be closed I think
22:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly move ingame windows (like graphs) to the other window as well
22:23:30  <LordAro> andythenorth: probably, yes
22:24:06  <andythenorth> 500 :)
22:24:18  <andythenorth> and bother me
22:24:28  <_dp_> 2733 was quite valid tho imo
22:24:33  <andythenorth> I don’t know enough facts to say that stuff is delegated to the OS
22:24:40  <andythenorth> _dp_: have you verified the bug?
22:24:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: close both and open a "detachable viewports" feature request?
22:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd leave 4637 open
22:25:36  <_dp_> andythenorth, no but I always knew one-way roads are useless
22:25:47  <_dp_> andythenorth, unless for hacky things like trapping vehicles
22:26:01  <andythenorth> [shrug]
22:26:04  <andythenorth> they’re one way
22:26:07  <Wolf01> I use them
22:26:08  <andythenorth> not two lane
22:26:17  <andythenorth> they work exactly as expected
22:26:21  <andythenorth> it’s crap
22:26:31  <andythenorth> but that issue won’t get them changed
22:26:39  * andythenorth sad times
22:26:40  <_dp_> andythenorth, eh.. but they look like two lane :p
22:26:48  <Wolf01> It could be solved by overpainting the unused lane :P
22:26:49  <andythenorth> players learn
22:26:56  <andythenorth> it’s an overtaking lane
22:27:16  <Wolf01> Too bad vehicles don't even overtake
22:27:20  <andythenorth> yes they do
22:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you didn't find a "duplicate" as reason to close it?
22:27:32  <andythenorth> or is that the bug? o_O
22:27:46  <_dp_> they do but very slow :p
22:28:00  <Wolf01> No, because you flooded the game with articulated vehicles which can't overtake :P
22:28:06  <andythenorth> they all go same speed
22:28:12  <andythenorth> so it’s not an issue
22:28:17  <andythenorth> I fixed it in newgrf
22:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> overtaking works terribly in the game
22:28:20  <_dp_> andythenorth, breakdons? ;)
22:28:26  <andythenorth> I’ve fixed loads of these stupid issues in newgrf
22:28:43  <andythenorth> breakdowns are turned off
22:28:45  <andythenorth> ;)
22:28:51  <andythenorth> fixed that issue too
22:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> because not only with articulated vehicles, but also with crowded traffic, vehicles won't overtake
22:29:00  <Wolf01> The problem raise when you still have different generations running
22:29:09  <_dp_> basically there is no difference in throughput (in one directino) between one way and two way roads currently
22:29:14  <_dp_> which is kinda silly imo
22:29:15  <andythenorth> I introduce most of the generations at the same time Wolf01 :)
22:29:26  <andythenorth> _dp_: one-way was just added for deliberate griefing no?
22:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all in 1600?
22:29:34  <Wolf01> But they don't replace at the same time
22:29:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nice idea
22:29:49  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, works well for that xD
22:30:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: when overtaking is fixed, we can all have cake
22:30:23  <andythenorth> LordAro: stop at 500?
22:30:29  <LordAro> probably
22:30:33  <andythenorth> I reckon
22:30:41  <andythenorth> Wolf01 and _dp_ can add more for their new patches
22:30:46  <supermop_> heading home
22:30:52  * andythenorth bed
22:31:01  <Wolf01> nn
22:31:07  <LordAro> since my browser doesn't let me look at paste.ottdc.o, can someone tell me whether there's a "raw" url i can get to easily?
22:31:09  * _dp_ secretly planning that whole evening
22:31:32  <LordAro> wait, found it
22:31:54  <andythenorth> this
22:31:57  <andythenorth> could die :P
22:32:28  <_dp_> definitely
22:32:34  <_dp_> it's bad enough already
22:33:25  <andythenorth> closed
22:33:27  <_dp_> i recall someone suggesting bitcoin with a random exchange rate
22:33:37  <andythenorth> ‘too many’ is highly subjective
22:33:53  <andythenorth> surely that’s just ‘losing’
22:33:58  <andythenorth> or ‘being crap at the game'
22:33:59  <andythenorth> ?
22:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: having fractional exchange rates might be useful, but constantly adjusting the exchange rates to real world values is surely a non-goal
22:34:27  <andythenorth> isn’t it
22:34:40  <andythenorth> closed
22:34:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, or cargodist
22:34:51  <andythenorth> that too
22:34:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd even go so far and request the original 1994 game exchange rates be reestablished, undoing any adjustments done in the past
22:35:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: add a feature request :)
22:35:14  <andythenorth> can we also undo inflation, and the smooth economy?
22:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like, at some point DM:GBP exchange rate was changed from original 4:1 to 3:1
22:35:37  <andythenorth> _dp_: 499, you have a quota of 1 patch :P
22:35:37  <_dp_> andythenorth, leave smooth, undo original one  :p
22:35:50  <andythenorth> frosch dislike smooth strongly for some reason
22:35:52  <andythenorth> not sure why
22:35:57  <andythenorth> dislikes *
22:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> smooth economy is incompatible with most newgrfs
22:36:33  <Eddi|zuHause> particularly the ones which use production callback
22:36:41  <_dp_> andythenorth, I guess from implementation point it's done quite awfully
22:36:44  <andythenorth> most newgrfs do what they want, ignoring economy
22:37:08  <_dp_> but for gameplay it's like "the only right way to play" imo :p
22:37:17  <andythenorth> Supercheese: but really? o_O
22:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> smooth economy is probably fine, but it should be automatically disabled if newgrfs using production callback is used
22:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> not just for the industries that use the callback, but for all industries
22:38:24  * andythenorth closed a “Shunting” feature request
22:38:26  <andythenorth> because no
22:38:42  <andythenorth> another one of these
22:38:43  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it does too much different thigs, I'd rather split it in a few independent settings
22:39:35  <_dp_> well, I guess, some of them will still need to interact with grfs somehow
22:40:28  <andythenorth> economy script :P
22:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: honestly, touching smooth economy will probably open a bottomless pit of new feature requests
22:40:47  <andythenorth> just throw them down to the bottom then
22:40:49  <andythenorth> :)
22:41:10  <Supercheese> yeah, There's a Patch for That™
22:41:14  <Supercheese> and that's good enough for me
22:42:14  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, we have andy to deal with them :p
22:42:57  <_dp_> though adding some more sensible options for those settings will probably cover some requests
22:43:02  <andythenorth> thanks Supercheese
22:43:24  <andythenorth> _dp_: just make economy scriptable
22:43:26  <andythenorth> simples
22:43:33  <_dp_> like I rly want completely stagnant economy where production never changes
22:43:33  <andythenorth> be done by Tuesday
22:43:43  <andythenorth> newgrf ;)
22:44:06  <andythenorth> are signals for bridges and tunnels ever or never?
22:44:07  <andythenorth>
22:44:16  <andythenorth> apaprently there’s a super-awesome patch for it
22:44:24  <andythenorth> maintained since 2009, seems to still be working
22:44:25  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, cloning all industry grfs
22:44:30  <_dp_> thanks but no
22:44:34  <andythenorth> _dp_: sounds crap
22:44:46  <andythenorth> but industry grfs ignore economy anyway
22:44:51  <andythenorth> so what to do what to do :)
22:45:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's one of reasons i still haven't done a patch
22:45:57  <_dp_> andythenorth, adding "stable god dammit" is probably a bad option...
22:46:02  <andythenorth> if there was economy script, I would make FIRS primaries listen to it
22:46:26  <andythenorth> I would want it to set a production level byte either per tile, or per town
22:46:37  <andythenorth> that then hooks into standard production behaviour
22:46:47  <andythenorth> and player can boost with supplies
22:47:20  <LordAro> there do seem to be quite a lot of little patches just sitting around that, to my eyes, look perfectly valid for merging
22:47:30  <andythenorth> alternatively, economy could set the production level directly in the industry
22:47:32  <andythenorth> crazy talk
22:47:51  <andythenorth> LordAro: I can’t judge quality, but yes, there seemed to be a lot
22:48:32  <andythenorth> one option is fork on github, merge them in one at a time, get TB to hook it up to a build (or you Circle build)
22:48:37  <andythenorth> then get players to test them
22:48:49  <andythenorth> or do blocks
22:48:54  <andythenorth> 5 at a time :P
22:49:14  <andythenorth> or just get them reviewed by someone who can review, and put them in trunk :P
22:49:33  <andythenorth> corrupt a few savegames :)
22:49:51  <_dp_> if something fits cm client I can merge it there first
22:50:01  <_dp_> there seem to be some people still using it)
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22:51:54  <LordAro> andythenorth: hehe
22:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the general idea of signals on bridges is a yes, the hackalittlebit approach is definitely a no
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22:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the hackalittlebit approach is too narrow, and would block a broader solution
23:00:20  <LordAro> doesn't the "proper approach" require that mythical new map array though?
23:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
23:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us to the topic of cirdan...
23:01:27  <LordAro> didn't michi start one?
23:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sure...
23:03:34  <andythenorth> bed
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23:06:00  <LordAro> urgh, all these lovely patches tied up in patchpacks
23:06:27  <LordAro> just need more people to go through and separate out features and tidy up patches
23:06:34  <LordAro> and people that can actually merge
23:06:44  <LordAro> but we've had this conversation already
23:09:59  <Eddi|zuHause> we've had that discussion multiple times before. often patch authors think having their patch included in a patchpack is a jumping ground for making it into trunk, when it's often the opposite
23:10:30  <LordAro> yeah
23:11:09  <LordAro> in a perfect world, it probably would be
23:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of patches died in patchpacks because no effort was done to maintain it separately, and actually clean it up for trunk merging
23:12:14  <LordAro> there's also the issue where many patches are split up into the nice sections the devs like, but they're just too large for the devs to properly review them
23:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> while the patchpack version was buried under layers and layers of further contamination from ultimately unmaintainable merging
23:12:19  <LordAro> so they just sit there
23:12:47  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which is why i like the look of juanjo's stuff, given they've got things in fairly nice separate commits already
23:14:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i've really not followed any patchpacks in like 5 years
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23:39:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:43:53  <Etua> Hello, why OpenTTD doesn't have it's own repository for backport updates?
23:50:50  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
23:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: openttd has a release branch, and bugfixes are backported to that branch
23:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (currently branches/1.7)
23:57:24  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I mean if there is a repo with deb files containing newer version than that in my distribution's LTS repo. Did you mean something like that or dev svn branch?
23:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i meant dev branch
23:59:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i don't think you can expect a project like this providing repositories for all the distributions out there

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