Log for #openttd on 19th August 2017:
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00:00:10  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause:
00:01:25  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: For me deb repo would be enough ;-) I know a few projects that offer them in order to skip distribution queues.
00:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: there are some .deb files on the download page, if that's what you're asking
00:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: and a generic bundle that should run on any distribution
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00:09:50  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I know but installing standalone deb files is a fast way to make your system a mess and it does not offer automatic updates. For example I use Prosody repo for their single package in newest version.
00:09:53  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: So I suppose that OpenTTD does not offer deb repo/ppa?
00:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: no, but if your distribution has anywhere beyond 100 users, it probably has someone that offers a repository containing an updated version
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00:18:02  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to install it on LM so probably anything from the Debian family would work. The problem is not even that I need most recent features but to be server-compatible with Windows user that presumably will have newest stable version.
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00:20:27  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: Do you know how big is the gap needed to loose compatibility between OpenTTD versions? Is that any difference is a blocker or compatibility is lost only after some significant changes?
00:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i (sorta) understand the problem, but really, this is a problem you should talk with distribution-maintainers about, you probably won't get a satisfying answer here
00:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm certain within "anything from the debian family" you will find hundreds of suitible repos
00:23:17  <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, I just wondered if there is some official OpenTTD repository. LM uses mainly Ubuntu LTS packages base so I probably won't do anything about the release cycle. Anyway, thank you for your help!
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05:54:41  <Alberth> moin
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05:58:45  <andythenorth> o/
06:05:28  <andythenorth> V453000: still thing?
06:09:07  <Alberth> looks highly complicated
06:09:31  <Alberth> more something for a planning kind of view
06:11:53  * andythenorth doesn’t understand this one
06:19:50  <Alberth> haha :)
06:20:45  <Alberth> company value is the sum of the prices of the shares, so if it's negative, you'd get money if you buy stocks from it
06:21:40  <Alberth> the OP probably reasoned that a negative value of a company should be an option, ie if you invest a lot without a proper profit
06:23:05  <Alberth> it's not going to be changed, at least not soon, and likely never
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06:31:29  * andythenorth will close that one
06:34:05  <andythenorth> isn’t this just ‘losing at OpenTTD’?
06:34:06  <andythenorth>
06:34:26  <andythenorth> at first glance, I’d say that town is terribly served by transport
06:34:51  <andythenorth> although I can see the logical fallacy of 3000+ pax in an isolated town with 1000 popn. :D
06:46:47  <Alberth> it's already closed?
06:47:39  <Alberth> stations are a bit too good at collecting cargo :p
06:48:18  <andythenorth> I was just intrigued by the fallacy :
06:48:19  <andythenorth> :)
06:49:32  <andythenorth> we need a FS category for scenario editor
06:49:36  * andythenorth can’t add those
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06:52:03  <SpComb> needs induced demand for pax
06:53:52  <LordAro> moin
06:54:56  * andythenorth hacks flyspray
06:55:14  <andythenorth> edits all relevant issue titles to start “Scenario Editor: "
06:55:19  <andythenorth> such hax
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06:56:52  <LordAro> andythenorth: not easier to wait for frosch to reappear and add a category? :p
06:57:22  <andythenorth> such lack of patience
06:57:26  <andythenorth> hi also
06:58:08  <andythenorth> I don’t understand this
06:58:25  <andythenorth> if I use ‘restart’ in console, I get the current map reset
06:58:57  <andythenorth> doesn’t matter if scenario or random game
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06:59:25  <andythenorth> no actually, that’s user error
06:59:35  <andythenorth> yeah, it bins the scenario and starts a new game
07:00:48  <Alberth> restart generates a new world, which doesn't do what you expect when you start from a loaded game :p
07:01:11  <andythenorth> I have left it open low priority
07:01:16  <andythenorth> should it actually be closed?
07:01:32  <Alberth> it differs between game versions, since the places where random is used changes
07:01:46  <Alberth> I don't think we want to stay compatible there
07:02:17  <Alberth> so yeah, close would be fine, imho
07:02:24  <andythenorth> do you have close rights? :)
07:08:09  <Alberth> probably
07:17:19  <Alberth> Not sure I agree with your conclusion of 6525
07:17:37  <Alberth> I think it makes sense to use the same rules in both cases
07:18:14  <andythenorth> does that let us consolidate anything?
07:18:39  <andythenorth> I am with frosch - the addition of a 2nd economy was an unfortunate mistake :)
07:18:47  <andythenorth> hindsight
07:19:42  * andythenorth wonders how to withdraw a closure request :P
07:20:00  <Alberth> dev can deny it :p
07:20:54  <andythenorth> there a quite a few where I requested closure instead of just closing
07:21:00  <andythenorth> because I’m really not certain
07:21:06  <Alberth> that's good
07:21:42  <andythenorth> what is clear: the majority of the 255 feature requests are (1) fair and valid (2) never going to get done :)
07:21:57  <LordAro> :)
07:21:58  <Alberth> If the OP had fixed the patch, I would have tried getting it in, but apparently even that is not discussable
07:21:59  <andythenorth> I am starting to priortise to ‘high’ and ‘low’ to try and make sense of them without closing
07:22:40  <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
07:22:43  <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
07:22:44  <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
07:23:02  <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
07:23:03  <andythenorth>
07:23:07  <LordAro> andythenorth: nice
07:23:30  <LordAro> i think that's unfair though, there's a difference between "half assed" and "use case no one thought of"
07:23:37  <Alberth> of course, you get bug reports about stuff that doesn't work :p
07:23:57  <andythenorth> Alberth: I would still reject 6525 on basis of “OP has abandoned work, and was slightly rude about it"
07:25:28  <Alberth> "rude" is perhaps not the right word, but we fundamentally differ in opinion
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07:27:30  <andythenorth> so now it’s basically “to move this forward anywhere, dev must rewrite patch for issue they never really cared about” o_O
07:28:43  <LordAro> jesus guys, it's not a huge amount of work
07:28:45  * LordAro looks at it
07:30:19  <andythenorth> :)
07:33:48  * andythenorth found some nice duplicates
07:33:55  <andythenorth> almost word for word
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07:36:07  <Alberth> LordAro: yep, I know, but I scribble down to do it, then just forget it until I run into it again
07:36:28  <andythenorth> like my FIRS ‘to do later’ list :)
07:36:36  <andythenorth> which is in no way going in tickets
07:36:53  * andythenorth opens that list to check
07:37:00  * andythenorth closes that list quickly
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07:43:47  <andythenorth>
07:43:52  <andythenorth> I think that isn’t
07:44:39  <andythenorth> I think OP confuses ‘cargo is assigned a destination’ (false) with ‘cdist controls loading of vehicles at stations’ (true)
07:46:34  <LordAro> ok, this code is actually just a mess
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07:49:00  <andythenorth> economy?
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07:49:31  <LordAro> yeah
07:49:42  <LordAro> smooth & original are just smashed together
07:50:03  <andythenorth> there’s no abstraction
07:50:09  <andythenorth> it’s very much JFDI spaghetti
07:50:39  * andythenorth is very familiar with industry_cmd.cpp and related 
07:50:41  <andythenorth> for reasons
07:51:27  <andythenorth> compared to other bits of src I’ve read, it seems to be one of the messiest areas
07:51:49  <andythenorth> but somehow newgrf industries are one of the most successful areas of modding :)
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07:52:11  <LordAro> heh
07:52:53  <andythenorth> nice houses are sometimes messy :)
07:53:14  <Alberth> economies is likely close to original decoded source :)
07:53:29  <andythenorth> there are probably technically pure bits of newgrf support that are never used
07:53:37  <andythenorth> or GS :P
07:53:58  * andythenorth would burn the economies, and replace with economy script
07:54:05  <LordAro> ES
07:54:16  <andythenorth> which could manipulate industry and town
07:54:25  <andythenorth> and in turn, be issued events by GS
07:54:37  <andythenorth> economy script would be pretty dumb and limited
07:54:55  <andythenorth> callbacks on some frequency, with control over map regions or tiles
07:55:42  <Alberth> +1
07:55:50  <andythenorth> GS controls goals
07:56:21  <andythenorth> so in this idea, you could have city builders or busy bee or whatever
07:56:30  <andythenorth> independent of, e.g. industry production
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07:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't we discussed yesterday hat squirrel is terrible for callbacks?
07:56:57  * andythenorth didn’t specify an implementation
07:57:14  <andythenorth> economy script could be nfo, possibly
07:57:26  <andythenorth> or something else
07:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> new nfo feature?
07:58:54  <andythenorth> my idea is to literally dump a couple of economy vars on tiles or towns
07:59:05  <andythenorth> and let ES adjust them on some frequency
07:59:13  <andythenorth> or response to limited number of events maybe
07:59:31  <andythenorth> don’t go around on a loop trying to micro-manage industries and towns
08:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the first thing i would do would be to implement some kind of slowly growing world population, which moves between towns and cities (urbanisation), when provicded with serviced industries
08:02:11  <Alberth> you need some system that can carry out long term orders, imho
08:02:39  <Alberth> and something of a planner
08:03:07  <andythenorth> it needs some kind of state
08:03:19  <Alberth> we have that, the entire game
08:03:23  <andythenorth> not just stateless response to cb, which limits you to pretty much random response to local vars
08:03:33  <andythenorth> I mean state outside the map array
08:03:36  <andythenorth> history or so
08:03:41  <andythenorth> but maybe that’s over-complicated
08:03:47  <andythenorth> and maybe that’s for GS
08:04:00  <andythenorth> yeah, ES should be simpler than that
08:04:11  <Alberth> stateless should be included, if only for backward compatibility
08:04:26  <Alberth> and it's a valid form of planning :p
08:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the GS has state, but not a lot of context (used GRF), whereas the GRF has lots of context but not enough state
08:04:44  <Alberth> not very effective though :p
08:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so things like house construction or production callback need access to this economy state, but also in a way that makes combining grfs from different authors possible
08:06:12  <Alberth> GRF has context at too low leve
08:06:17  <Alberth> ie too local
08:07:05  <_dp_> o/
08:07:13  <Alberth> so randomisation stays in GRF, higher long term direction more in GS
08:07:19  <Alberth> o/ dp
08:07:46  <andythenorth> newgrf is a walled garden for production
08:07:57  <andythenorth> all we can do is indicate to the newgrf what the local map conditions are
08:08:05  <_dp_> 6525 is an example of what should economy be splitted into imo
08:08:08  <Alberth> perhaps something related tp position (this position should grow/stay the same/shrink) ?
08:08:52  <Alberth> wrt to some property (population, industry production, ..)
08:08:53  <andythenorth> yes
08:08:57  <andythenorth> or just a byte
08:09:04  <andythenorth> indicating current economic health
08:09:08  <andythenorth> that would be enough
08:09:16  <Alberth> would work
08:09:20  <andythenorth> I want to keep it really simple
08:09:35  <andythenorth> if we do it simple and blunt, it can be used not just by houses and industries
08:09:41  <andythenorth> but also towns can use it to grow or shrink
08:09:50  <andythenorth> or build roads
08:10:14  <andythenorth> and it _could_ be used to localised cargo payment rates (custom profit calculation exists already)
08:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a global level of coordination (like world population), and a regional level coordination (like town has access to a source of electricity) additionally to the local "coordination" that newgrfs can already do
08:10:59  <_dp_> your ES looks pretty much the same as client-side GS I was talking about recently
08:11:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: coordination could be ES or GS
08:11:47  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd see that as something internal to the global planner
08:11:55  <andythenorth> I would give GS commands to ES, on a per-region basis
08:12:24  <andythenorth> hmm, that might be a disaster though :)
08:13:18  <Alberth> ES == economy script?
08:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i think what is missing is a communication layer between GS and GRF
08:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so that the GS can understand what each industry is currently doing, and can indicate to the industry what it wants to be controlling
08:13:58  <Alberth> looks like it
08:14:07  <andythenorth> ES = Economy Script
08:14:21  <andythenorth> I think it’s possibly an Economy Layer as much as a script
08:14:25  <andythenorth> it would have logic, but not much
08:14:29  <Alberth> one way communication GS -> GRF would be sufficient
08:14:36  <andythenorth> it _could_ have been done with newgrf towns
08:14:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: the communication has to be semaphore/telegraph, not direct control
08:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there is this weird town storage
08:15:37  <andythenorth> there is
08:15:44  <andythenorth> I considered using it, but it’s a hack
08:15:51  <andythenorth> and again, the towns don’t have global overview
08:16:03  <andythenorth> consistent theme
08:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it could, if the GS also had access to that town storage, and could organize the data
08:16:34  <andythenorth> yes
08:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but then you still need a common interface, so you could plug in and out different grfs and gamescripts
08:17:19  <andythenorth> at that point, my ES idea is ~identical, except it provides a dedicated storage, not dependent on convention
08:17:37  <andythenorth> using town storage is totally dependent on everyone agreeing which register to use
08:18:03  <andythenorth> also I would like to see the smooth economy eliminated from openttd src
08:18:07  <andythenorth> and moved into a script layer
08:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> NoEconomy :p
08:18:26  <andythenorth> yes
08:18:31  <andythenorth> perfect name
08:18:57  <andythenorth> NoIndustries would also be good :P
08:19:10  <andythenorth> re-implement them all in clean NML, ship it with openttd
08:19:10  <_dp_> why wasn't GS called NoScript?
08:19:17  <_dp_> would be a very fitting name :p
08:19:19  <andythenorth> ha
08:19:40  <Alberth> let's make NoOpenTTD :p
08:19:44  <andythenorth> move more ‘vanilla’ stuff to newgrf, ship source clean with the game, let people mod
08:19:55  <andythenorth> eliminate > 'some' feature requests
08:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it would not. because NoAI was named that when the first step was ripping out the old AI. with GS there was nothing existing to rip out
08:20:02  <_dp_> Alberth, fork it and rename trunk :p
08:20:24  <andythenorth> ship a cross-platform nmlc, create a ‘compile’ button right in the game
08:20:31  <andythenorth> :P
08:20:34  <Alberth> :D
08:20:56  <andythenorth> NewGRF UI :P
08:21:00  <andythenorth> mod that
08:26:06  <LordAro> these are basically equivalent, right?
08:30:03  <V453000> hmmm the colour offset logic I have for darkening semi-transparent edges is an absolute nightmare :D
08:30:08  <V453000> it has so many exceptions and special cases
08:30:30  <_dp_> LordAro, what file is it from?
08:30:55  <LordAro> industry_cmd.cpp
08:30:55  <andythenorth> V453000: edges are hard :)
08:31:56  <andythenorth> V453000: also, thing still?
08:32:59  <_dp_> LordAro, don't think they are, looks like while only closes when it tries to go below PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM
08:33:09  <_dp_> LordAro, and if closes when it reaches it
08:33:46  <andythenorth> fricking airports
08:35:01  <andythenorth> specifically town limitations on them
08:35:05  <andythenorth> should have been newgrf
08:35:22  <andythenorth> n airports per town, noise limits, blah blah
08:35:36  <andythenorth> as it is I have to use OGFX+ Airports just to fix it
08:35:42  <andythenorth> meanwhile
08:35:54  <andythenorth> that has a patch, but should be closed imho
08:36:17  <andythenorth> solved: use noise limits, and OGFX+ Airports
08:39:45  <V453000> andythenorth: iz thing, would be cute, but it's just another nice idea that doesn't really need doing
08:39:54  <V453000> probably more problems than worth
08:39:59  <V453000> close af
08:40:15  <_dp_> 5968 should probably go along with splitting town attitude setting
08:40:34  <andythenorth> just delegate it to mods
08:40:38  <andythenorth> noise limit is regret
08:40:59  <_dp_> as economy attitude also controls several independent things
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08:42:03  <Wolf01> o/
08:42:23  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
08:42:30  <andythenorth> this one is just a straight yes/no
08:42:39  <andythenorth> and it’s a trivial patch if yes
08:44:17  <Wolf01> No, as Alberth said, change your hotkeys
08:45:07  <Wolf01> As I might already use CTRL+S for other things :P
08:45:32  <andythenorth> LordAro: o_O
08:45:41  <andythenorth> NoTownGrowth
08:45:47  <Wolf01> Also one might like ctrl+shift+F12 to savem because office use that XD
08:45:48  <LordAro> haha
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08:46:00  <LordAro> andythenorth: kill it
08:46:15  <andythenorth> LordAro: it’s nice evidence for scripted town control :)
08:46:17  <andythenorth> but ok
08:46:47  <Wolf01> 3951 is "close, reason: disable road building for towns"
08:47:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, and that one may already be possible actually
08:47:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, iirc GS is allowed to bridge as deity
08:47:33  <andythenorth> GS is too slow to properly control trowns
08:47:35  <andythenorth> towns *
08:47:40  <Wolf01> Oh, I didn't read the title XD
08:47:42  <_dp_> yeah, except that)
08:47:58  <Wolf01> It was about building bridges, don't town already build bridges over rails?
08:48:10  <andythenorth> not afaik
08:48:55  <Wolf01> I didn't play a full game lately, the only one was a friend, maybe he built them
08:49:02  <Wolf01> *with a friend
08:49:07  <_dp_> though in this case I'd say speed isn't the issue, but lack of knowlege when town is going to expand over that rail
08:49:21  <_dp_> Wolf01, it builds level crossings if allowed
08:49:48  <andythenorth> _dp_: that’s still speed
08:49:53  <Wolf01> I would like them to build bridges if level crossing is not allowed
08:49:55  <andythenorth> “GS can’t respond to callbacks” :)
08:50:08  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if you put it like that :)
08:50:09  <andythenorth> some new script layer, or newgrf could do this
08:50:18  <andythenorth> cb -> town is trying to build road -> check tiles
08:50:23  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB imho
08:50:27  <andythenorth> but plausible
08:50:39  <andythenorth> 476 FS issues
08:51:57  <andythenorth> nice mini project for $someone here
08:52:11  <andythenorth> SE is *UI* pretty much independent of savegames, right?
08:52:25  <andythenorth> *UI* is /s
08:52:47  <Wolf01> Could I add my patches too?
08:52:55  <_dp_> oh, actually, if town roads are disabled there could be a GS that takes that part completely. Then it will decide itself when to expand and where
08:53:23  <andythenorth> NoTownGrowth
08:53:34  <andythenorth> also NoTownLayouts
08:53:47  <andythenorth> core should do less and less
08:54:02  <_dp_> andythenorth, those are just imaginary things, I'm talking of what could be done already :p
08:54:04  <andythenorth> the less core does, the more that patchpacks can roam around
08:54:15  <andythenorth> _dp_: fair
08:54:18  <Alberth> scenario editor needs lots of work
08:54:48  * andythenorth wonders what the separation between SE and world-gen should be
08:54:53  <andythenorth> world-gen is pretty crap
08:55:06  <andythenorth> tropic doesn’t work at all
08:55:33  <Wolf01> BTW, I usually try to build embanked or trenched rails, for noise... you know... so towns can build tunnels or bridges, depends how I build them
08:55:52  <andythenorth> why do we have the combination of (1) climate specific topography and
08:55:59  <andythenorth> (2) also player options for ‘mountainous’, ‘variety distribution’ etc
08:56:05  <andythenorth> as most of (2) doesn’t really work
08:56:13  <andythenorth> it’s false configuration options
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08:56:26  <andythenorth> because the climate topography just ignores it
08:56:39  * andythenorth may be over-stating the case here :)
08:57:32  <andythenorth> what if I starting a game and building a scenario were same pipeline, used differently
08:57:51  <Alberth> it's surely trivial to spend a decade full time reworking all the parts
08:57:57  <andythenorth> heh
08:58:38  <andythenorth> generate height terrain / use heightmap -> apply climate -> generate landscape greeble / manually apply -> generate towns / place towns -> generate industries / place industries -> play
08:58:43  <Alberth> starting a game would have much less control, I think
08:59:21  <Alberth> "editing" also implies you can change your mind without starting from scratch again :)
08:59:59  <andythenorth> drop into SE at any point, edit your map, continue playing
09:00:18  <andythenorth> like creative/survival mode switch in minecraft
09:00:45  <LordAro> how's this look?
09:00:56  <andythenorth> 7 year old just found the “why can’t aRVs go in drive-in stops” issue :(
09:01:01  * andythenorth having to do user support here
09:01:18  <LordAro> i think it's as simple as i can make a vaguely sane "split the two economies"
09:01:24  <andythenorth> message could be better “Articulated vehicles can’t use this road stop"
09:01:31  <LordAro> andythenorth: haha
09:01:37  <LordAro> this is true
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09:04:35  <andythenorth> LordAro: I could test that gist, but I can’t review it :|
09:05:06  <andythenorth> if we had discord, I could just put a mic on my 7 year old, and we could answer all his ‘why did you make it like this?’ questions :P
09:05:13  <LordAro> lol
09:05:23  <andythenorth> apparently ‘smooth is not very smooth'
09:05:33  <andythenorth> and ‘Engineering Supplies are very annoying'
09:05:52  <LordAro> andythenorth: i think that second one is on you
09:06:06  <Wolf01> andythenorth: you can ask him and just report here the answers
09:06:27  <andythenorth> he could just join irc
09:06:32  <andythenorth> but we’d have to not swear
09:06:40  * andythenorth would have to ban V453000 
09:06:42  <Wolf01> Kick V
09:06:44  <Wolf01> Eh
09:07:08  <LordAro> hahaha
09:07:39  <Wolf01> He is like the Deadpool of this channel
09:09:51  <andythenorth> NoSignals
09:10:42  <LordAro> NoOpenTTD
09:10:44  <LordAro> wait
09:10:50  <LordAro> Alberth: review plox
09:11:19  <LordAro> andythenorth: how many open tasks did you start with?
09:11:36  <andythenorth> 840 or so
09:11:51  <andythenorth> there are 475 open now
09:12:07  <LordAro> thought so
09:12:10  <LordAro> nearly half way \o/
09:12:11  <andythenorth> of those, 71 are patches that might be worth reviewing
09:12:47  <andythenorth> ~30 are crashes that might want investigated (boring)
09:13:06  <Alberth> LordAro: I had a try, but your economy patch moves too much stuff around to understand
09:13:32  <andythenorth> there are another 130 or so bugs, which are probably mostly TMWFTLB, but ought to be triaged
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09:13:40  <andythenorth> so that’s 230 issues that could go
09:14:00  <andythenorth> the rest are feature requests, which look increasingly hard to reject
09:14:07  <_dp_> diff itself is kind of weird, it mixes removes and adds from different functions
09:14:11  <andythenorth> 40 of them are george asking for specific newgrf things
09:14:14  <andythenorth> the other 190…blah
09:14:15  <_dp_> I'm trying to do a split view atm
09:14:18  <LordAro> Alberth: yeah, it's probably easier to compare the files themselves
09:14:22  <LordAro> rather than the raw diff
09:14:56  <LordAro> vimdiff ;)
09:15:51  <andythenorth> if I close a lot of these feature requests…it’s heading into drama land
09:15:59  <andythenorth> even though, empirically nothing changed
09:16:07  <andythenorth> before closure: feature will not be done
09:16:14  <andythenorth> after closure: feature will not be done
09:16:20  * andythenorth collapsed a waveform though
09:16:28  <Wolf01> Added a new task, for the glory of satan
09:16:47  <andythenorth> think that overlaps another one somewhere
09:16:48  * andythenorth looks
09:17:10  <_dp_> LordAro, bb diff here
09:18:05  <_dp_> though now that I look at it I like github split veiw more
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09:19:13  * LordAro tries something
09:19:50  <LordAro>
09:19:51  <andythenorth> Wolf01: does your suggestion aid this?
09:20:24  <andythenorth> can I close 1738 as duplicate now?
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09:20:33  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I use hotkeys for fast switching
09:20:57  <LordAro> Alberth: _dp_: it'd now be fairly trivial to get rid of Industry::prod_level as well
09:21:19  <Wolf01> I don't remember if there's a hotkey to increase and decrease the area size
09:21:40  <andythenorth> Wolf01: does it also address any of this wish list?
09:21:48  <andythenorth> multi-item wish-list tickets always need to die :P
09:21:49  <_dp_> ... ok, mb I don't like github one more xD
09:22:09  <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, it addresses "2"
09:22:15  <andythenorth> thanks
09:22:57  <Wolf01> Oh wait
09:23:16  <Wolf01> Isn't that already implemented?
09:23:28  <LordAro> _dp_: hehe
09:23:28  <Wolf01> Uhm, no
09:23:42  <Wolf01> I used the level land :P
09:24:19  <Wolf01> BTW, yes, could be easily addressed
09:27:42  <Wolf01> Does TTDP works on Win10? I would like to try and see how the SE worked there
09:28:04  <andythenorth> virtualbox :P
09:28:05  <andythenorth> if not
09:28:25  <andythenorth> 474 issues :)
09:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> use dosbox?
09:28:38  <andythenorth> if only $some people would stop adding new issues ;)
09:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> although, who really has the dos version of ttd?
09:29:05  <Wolf01> I warned you yesterday I wouldn't stop to add new issues XD
09:29:24  <andythenorth> this is a bug?
09:30:01  <Wolf01> Time to get my old TTDx game disk
09:30:04  <LordAro> andythenorth: i think they're talking about how it "bounces"
09:30:19  <andythenorth> is it actually broken, or just weird? :P
09:30:28  <andythenorth> yeah it’s probably a bug eh
09:31:21  <andythenorth> _dp_: you want this one closed?
09:32:35  <LordAro> andythenorth: it's enough of a bug that adf thought it was worth patching :p
09:32:39  <andythenorth> isn’t it
09:32:49  <andythenorth> hmm 6284 - not a current goal
09:32:53  <andythenorth> goals are pretty clear
09:33:03  <andythenorth> cleaning up alleged MP exploits is pretty definitely not one
09:33:25  <andythenorth>
09:33:36  <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, let me thing a bit
09:33:44  <andythenorth> I am about to close it
09:33:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, I'm fine with leaving things as they are but it may be a valid request
09:33:58  <andythenorth> closing alleged exploits always pisses off as many people as it pleases
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09:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think that request is invalid
09:34:53  <Wolf01> Ok, win x64 doesn't have anymore wow16, so I can't straignt install TTDx, dosbox might help
09:35:16  <andythenorth> the pattern of ‘change established behaviour because some limited number of people running goal servers don’t like it'
09:35:21  <andythenorth> is not a winning strategy
09:35:26  <LordAro> think they removed that in win8
09:35:37  <Wolf01> They removed that with x64
09:35:50  <Wolf01> Even on XP
09:37:17  <andythenorth> FWIW, I don’t want station signs moving around
09:37:19  <andythenorth> and I closed it
09:37:29  <_dp_> andythenorth, I'd say 6284 raises up a valid problem but no solution
09:37:37  <Wolf01> Oh, I already had some D-Fend config for TTDx
09:37:43  <_dp_> andythenorth, just calling UpdateStationSignCoord will do nearly nothing
09:37:53  <andythenorth> 7 year old is now having a one-sided conversation with Convoy AI :P
09:38:03  <andythenorth> he is critiquing AI choices :P
09:39:05  <Alberth> :)
09:39:27  <LordAro> andythenorth: i did always find it a bit odd that the sign only moved when deleting bits of the station, rather than adding to it
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09:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be that the sign never moved
09:40:09  <_dp_> one possible solution mb to find closest parts of two stations and use distance between them in payment calculations
09:40:10  <andythenorth> +1 LordAro….but of the things we could spend time on :)
09:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> then it was changed so the sign would be moved if it ended up outside of the station
09:40:24  * andythenorth would choose ones that are fun
09:40:44  <andythenorth> my goal here is ‘make developing great again'
09:44:12  <V453000> u wot m8
09:44:51  <andythenorth> vote for me
09:45:12  <andythenorth> this: why?
09:45:16  <andythenorth> nobody needs to do that
09:46:36  <Wolf01> Remove minimap
09:46:45  <andythenorth> NoMiniMap
09:46:48  <andythenorth> NoWolf01
09:47:01  * andythenorth considered it briefly
09:47:07  <Wolf01> Main viewport becomes minimap when unzoomed
09:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> is there no button to focus the minimap on the current viewport?
09:47:23  <andythenorth> not afaik
09:47:26  <_dp_> isn't there an easy way to do it already?
09:47:28  <andythenorth> that would actually be super useful
09:47:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: add an issue for that :D
09:48:04  <Wolf01> The 2nd button?
09:48:32  <_dp_> minimap is good for jumping around, zooming viewports isn't quite the same
09:48:33  <LordAro> needs more hyper key
09:48:52  <Wolf01> Tooltip says "centre the smallmap in the current location"
09:49:01  <Wolf01> *position
09:49:05  <andythenorth> also 5658, just click the eye icon
09:49:41  <andythenorth> hmm, no it does have to be paused for that to work
09:49:42  <andythenorth> NFI then
09:50:11  <V453000> hm shit my super smart system of automatically detecting index brightness doesn't work for shit :D
09:50:14  <V453000> need to do it all manually
09:51:05  <Wolf01> Oooooh the TTDx installer
09:51:18  <andythenorth> V453000: why not working?
09:52:12  * andythenorth still wonders why it matters where a vehicle is on minimap
09:52:45  <_dp_> 5658 is funny. minimap centers if same location is requested
09:53:05  <_dp_> so if you doubleclick fast enough on moving vehicle it centers xD
09:53:06  <andythenorth> I would like to just be able to press the hotkey again to center minimap (mine is ‘m’)
09:53:24  <andythenorth> that would actually be super not-shit
09:53:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, actually just hotkey to open it is enough
09:54:05  <_dp_> andythenorth, it centers on viewport when opened
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09:54:43  <andythenorth> yeah, but I have to use ‘del’ to close all windows, then press ‘m’ again
09:54:49  <andythenorth> that’s actually my serious workaround
09:55:01  <V453000> andythenorth: because many indexes have rather bright colours at the 2nd darkest index already etc
09:55:03  <_dp_> still good enough for that bug as you already have 2 options
09:55:36  <V453000> plus all the wtf colours like 3-index range of yellow, super bright green or cyan being reversed in order of darkness :D
09:55:39  <V453000> etc
09:55:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't have map key binded, does it not close minimap if it's already open?
09:56:02  <_dp_> andythenorth, probably should if it doesn't
09:56:10  <andythenorth> nah it doesn’t toggle it
09:59:44  <andythenorth> this one’s a patch?
09:59:49  <andythenorth> has a patch attached :P
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10:04:19  <andythenorth> this kind of just annoys me
10:04:40  <andythenorth> vague request, links me to a 2 page thread of people arguing about how to build multiple unit trains in newgrf
10:04:50  <andythenorth> arguing / debating /s
10:05:00  <andythenorth> wtf is it supposed to be
10:05:32  * andythenorth pasted a vanilla reply on and closed it
10:05:36  <andythenorth> no gain by being grumpy :)
10:08:11  *** ic111 has joined #openttd
10:08:54  <andythenorth> ha, ES should also get control of inflation
10:09:08  <andythenorth> globally though, not per town :P
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10:14:45  <Alberth> inflation with equally increasing costs and profits is useless, just turn it off then
10:15:22  <andythenorth> seems daft
10:15:45  <andythenorth> why not have date-based variation of base costs?
10:15:52  <andythenorth> so recessions, booms etc
10:16:02  <andythenorth> inflation seems a waste of time to me
10:16:14  <andythenorth> I’d just rm it, and migrate savegames
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10:17:05  <andythenorth> 467 issues
10:17:23  * _dp_ never understood inflation
10:18:04  <_dp_> though I don't play more than 5-15 years usually
10:18:16  <andythenorth> aren’t ping times going to be highly variable?
10:18:24  <andythenorth> kind of useless
10:18:36  <LordAro> not generally
10:18:44  <LordAro> could take some sort of rolling average
10:19:26  <andythenorth> also are we going to send pings from the client to hundreds of servers?
10:19:34  <andythenorth> seems like a ping-flood :P
10:19:43  <_dp_> I think I've never seen a server that is unblayble due to ping
10:19:57  <Wolf01> Do you want one?
10:20:07  <_dp_> Wolf01, xD
10:20:12  <Wolf01> Just let me start mine XD
10:20:47  <_dp_> andythenorth, iirc it already pings all servers
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10:22:46  <_dp_> well, techically it's not a ping but udp request but whatever
10:22:48  <Wolf01> _dp_: ...unblayble... <- Oh, I noticed you have bdpq problems too, I wrote p in place of b for 3 times today (luckily I noticed them before sending) XD
10:23:14  *** supermop_home has quit IRC
10:23:25  <_dp_> Wolf01, i noticed I have a lot of problems with typos xD
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10:24:07  <Wolf01> My fingers usually forget the "h", some days ago I wrote "i" in place of "y" everywhere
10:25:26  <_dp_> My weirdest typo is that I sometimes write "your" instead of "our"
10:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> recently i find myself typing a lot of "sounds" in the wrong way
10:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't come up with an example right now
10:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you said it outloud, it would sound the same, but written down it's complete jibberish
10:26:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: many other game lobbys have the feature, it can't be that difficult to achieve
10:27:01  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
10:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wrt ping time, only use the timing of the initial response packet, don't constantly update it?
10:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> would put no additional stress on the servers, because that packet is sent anyways
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10:31:34  <_dp_> nice and relatively easy feature imo but hardly useful
10:31:42  <_dp_> but I may be too spoiled by a good internet :)
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10:43:13  <Pikka> hi
10:43:29  <Wolf01> o/
10:51:30  <Alberth> andythenorth: is it correct that bulk terminal does not show "(supplied)" but does show "Gung ho" instead?
10:51:36  <andythenorth> yes
10:51:40  <andythenorth> bit weird though eh?
10:51:45  <Alberth> it is
10:51:54  <andythenorth> port-type industries are quite non-standard
10:52:26  <andythenorth> mechanic seems to work, but words…dunno
10:53:04  <Alberth> words sometimes work, sometimes they don't
10:53:38  <andythenorth> :o
10:53:42  <andythenorth> is pikka bob
10:53:49  <Pikka> si
10:54:09  <Pikka> someone's been closing all my flysprays
10:54:29  <andythenorth> isn’t it
10:54:33  <andythenorth> got any more? o_O
10:54:44  <andythenorth>
10:54:46  <Pikka> I don't know, haven't checked
10:55:37  <Pikka> there's some good ones there
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11:01:47  <ic111> Does anyone know, wether the days_in_transit (in cargo packets) are actually in unit "2.5 days" like the comment of CargoPacket::DaysInTransit() states?
11:02:34  <ic111> I ask, because I started inspecting why I earn a surprisingly low amount of money with transporting passengers sometimes
11:02:57  <andythenorth> Pikka: so can you get elected as a federal politician? o_O
11:03:36  <ic111> So I added a logger to PayFinalDelivery, PayTransfer, and AgeCargo
11:03:50  <_dp_> ic111, sounds likely but not sure
11:04:49  <ic111> ... and in a small test game starting at 1st January 1905, my train loaded around 3rd January, and unloaded 19th January, and the days_in_transit variable contained the value 20!
11:05:30  <_dp_> ic111, may also be some accumulated value for all cargo packets
11:05:42  <Wolf01> Days in transit iirc is from when they appear at station
11:05:57  <ic111> Yes, I am aware of that
11:06:01  <Wolf01> It's the life of the cargo packet
11:06:35  <ic111> As I have said, the game started at 1st January, so at 19th January, following the comment, no cargo packet can have a value > 19 / 2.5 = 7 or 8
11:06:54  <_dp_> it's only icreased when cargo is in train, I definitely checked that recently
11:07:30  <_dp_> I guess it's easier to just ask grep :p
11:08:09  <ic111> Yes, but my logging output looks like it´s increased much more often than the comment indicates.
11:09:29  <_dp_> ic111, are you sure you're not confusing days_in_transit and cargo_days_in_transit?
11:12:20  <ic111> cargopacket.h has an implementation for DaysInTransit(), implemented as "return this->days_in_transit;".  I output cp->DaysInTransit().  So, not impossible that I confuse something, but currently I don´t see a mistake in my logging.
11:12:49  <_dp_> I see...
11:12:56  <_dp_> do you use any newgrfs?
11:13:03  <ic111> Yes
11:13:28  <V453000> hi Pikka :)
11:13:30  <_dp_> looks like vehicle newgrf can speed up cargo aging as well
11:13:55  <ic111> Ah, ok. Then I indeed should test this without NewGRF
11:14:02  <ic111> ... and maybe that comment is misleading
11:16:05  <andythenorth> vehicle newgrf can control decay rate
11:16:06  <andythenorth> fwiw
11:17:16  <V453000> nuts does :P
11:18:52  <_dp_> cat it change it dynamically?)
11:18:58  <_dp_> cat lol
11:19:00  <_dp_> *can
11:19:05  <Wolf01> Cats already do that
11:19:10  <Wolf01> *always
11:19:16  <Wolf01> Fuck typo
11:19:17  <Wolf01> XD
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11:20:09  <_dp_> looks like it can't, so no reducing decay in snow :(
11:21:19  <ic111> Yes, it was the NewGRF
11:21:55  <ic111> Seems that those early SBB set vehicles increase cargo aging by (in my example) a factor three
11:22:35  <ic111> ... now at least I know why earning money with a larger passenger network is so difficult with those vehicles, something which I never understood so far
11:23:17  <andythenorth> there is no indication to player about decay rates
11:23:23  <andythenorth> nor loading speed
11:23:30  <Wolf01> BAD feature
11:23:41  * andythenorth thinks vehicle window should show those somehow
11:23:48  <andythenorth> or players should all use text cb :P
11:23:59  <Wolf01> Maybe cargo payment rate graph window too
11:25:34  <_dp_> Wolf01, rate graph doesn't know about vehicles
11:25:44  <Wolf01> Put rate graph in vehicles
11:25:45  <_dp_> this thing potentially could though
11:26:55  <V453000> yeah loading speed is good to know
11:27:07  <V453000> all of nuts vehicles add that in text cb manually ._.
11:27:32  <_dp_> for a single wagon it's better to show it as a value
11:27:39  <_dp_> graphs make more sense for a whole train
11:27:49  <_dp_> not so easy to calculate though
11:28:48  <ic111> ... although I don´t understand the idea behind that - what´s the idea behind faster cargo aging (specifically?) in a situation where vehicles are slow, and need more time for going from A to B, regardless how efficient you build your network?
11:29:50  <andythenorth> nice chart _dp_
11:29:55  <V453000> it's dumb really ic111
11:29:58  <andythenorth> what chart library? o_O
11:30:05  <V453000> nuts tries to simulate "losing cargo" by that, though it's pointless
11:30:09  <_dp_> people get sick faster in old vehicles :)
11:30:13  <V453000> yeah chart is nice
11:30:14  <andythenorth> it’s realisms
11:30:25  * andythenorth makes some vehicles age cargo faster
11:30:59  <Wolf01> andythenorth: highcharts
11:31:59  <andythenorth> hmm costs money eh
11:32:01  <andythenorth> lots
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11:32:55  <_dp_> yeah, for non-commercial it's the best library I know
11:32:59  <ic111> Yes, the idea that people get sick (or rather bored, or whatever you want to call it) faster in old wagons is valid.
11:33:09  <andythenorth> err…per developer licensing :|
11:33:10  <andythenorth> wtf
11:33:11  <andythenorth> nvm
11:33:19  <andythenorth> back to open source charting for andythenorth
11:33:20  <ic111> And I admit, that I use the date cheat, to build a network with those old vehicles
11:34:00  <ic111> But, nevertheless, it blocks longer distance trains with those vehicles
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11:34:38  <ic111> Maybe time for the next private sourcecode hack ;-)
11:35:01  <_dp_> openttd doesn't seem to be a good economy simulator anyway
11:35:09  <V453000> ^
11:35:19  <_dp_> just make good moneyline and do whatever you want afterwards)
11:35:31  <ic111> Indeed
11:36:16  <ic111> It was just a new expericence, that with a large passenger networks, that transports quite a lot of passengers, earning money became so difficult.
11:37:06  <V453000> well being able to transport furhter more efficiently isn't that much of a bad thing, gives some more progression
11:37:14  <V453000> but yeah, money in openttd :)
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11:39:56  <_dp_> btw, speaking of increased passenger "aging", why do they even "age" in a first place? :)
11:40:20  <Wolf01> Some cargo could rot
11:40:22  <V453000> I think the idea was to motivate an efficient network which gets there quick
11:40:34  <V453000> and again progression with faster engines
11:40:39  <ic111> Income per distance unit depends on the time spent for that distance
11:40:56  <_dp_> there should probably be some average travel speed expectancy for passengers that increase with time
11:41:01  <_dp_> but eh, NoEconomy :p
11:41:08  <Flygon> I do kinda wish Passengers had a different style of economy.
11:41:14  <Flygon> That encouraged using smaller capacity carriages.
11:41:36  <Flygon> ie. high quality carriages for long distance journeys, with small capacities, will generate a lot of profit.
11:41:43  <Flygon> But will be terrible for profit short distance.
11:41:43  <ic111> And implementors of CargoDist chose to not calculating this by storing the timestamp when the cargo entered the vehicle, but by aging cargo periodically.
11:45:20  <ic111> Yes, it would be quite good if the expectation "what´s an average travel speed" would depend on the available vehicles
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11:51:05  <Wolf01> Flygon: that's what tourists are for, they should pay more to travel more, like a logarithmic function :P
11:51:58  <Flygon> :P That's it's own Cargo Class.
11:52:00  <andythenorth> Flygon: I’m going to try two types of carriage in Iron Horse
11:52:05  <Flygon> American Tourists are a sub-class.
11:52:06  <andythenorth> it works for bus/coach in Road Hog
11:54:54  <Wolf01> Add taxis
11:55:46  <andythenorth> this
11:55:54  <andythenorth> Tropic map gen is junk
11:56:04  <andythenorth> but that issue is not getting it fixed
12:03:09  <andythenorth> LordAro: a classic :D
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12:03:15  <Wolf01> Tropic gen is broken, yes
12:03:44  <Wolf01> Open a task
12:03:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: defo still valid
12:04:20  <andythenorth> Wolf01: would you review my tropic patch? o_O
12:04:49  <andythenorth>
12:04:50  <Wolf01> Yes, I could do it
12:05:05  <_dp_> does anyone know if it's even worth to constatly call fontconfig's FcFini to save up some memory?
12:05:07  <_dp_> because time-wise it definitely doesn't
12:05:08  <_dp_> actually I couldn't even confirm there is any memory gain by doing it
12:05:09  <_dp_> and every FcInit takes about 2 seconds on my pc
12:05:10  <_dp_> I could probably patch it not to reinitialize fontconfig 12 times on every load but it somewhat feels that just keeping it initialized constantly would be even better.
12:07:02  <LordAro> _dp_: doesn't FcInit do that anyway? not like it returns anything
12:07:25  <_dp_> damn, I think i jinxed my internet :(
12:10:48  <Wolf01> andythenorth: wtf you coded it like that? :D
12:11:12  <andythenorth> you think I should apply DRY? o_O
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12:11:17  <andythenorth> rather than copy-paste? o_O
12:11:46  <Wolf01> No, just remove the code from the case and move the tropic case up with temperate and toyland
12:11:52  <andythenorth> yes
12:11:54  <andythenorth> DRY :)
12:12:13  <andythenorth> I had a problem with that idea
12:12:22  <andythenorth> …why bother checking cases at all? :P
12:12:28  <andythenorth> just use one terrain generator
12:13:03  <Wolf01> Mmmh, it works better for the terrain, but still broken as fuck
12:13:58  * andythenorth should try the temperate generator for arctic too
12:13:59  * andythenorth tests that
12:14:19  <V453000> arctic is nice
12:14:25  <V453000> tropic has hard time making hills
12:14:50  <andythenorth> ‘hard’ ?
12:14:53  <andythenorth> it’s totally fucked :)
12:14:56  <V453000> :)
12:15:01  <andythenorth> it’s a disaster
12:15:17  <andythenorth> not fixing it is one of the few things that makes me sad about current OpenTTD dev :)
12:15:31  <andythenorth> everything else is pretty awesome
12:16:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: ?
12:18:15  <andythenorth> how do I generate same seed?
12:18:21  * andythenorth comparing maps
12:19:10  <Wolf01>
12:19:57  <LordAro> i'm gonna be miserable now. until we can actually get a dev to look at this stuff, say yes, and merge it; or give someone else commit rights, this is all pointless
12:20:07  <Wolf01> Seed is 789214921
12:20:09  <andythenorth> more mountains Wolf01 ?
12:20:23  <andythenorth> LordAro: we can fork!
12:20:26  * andythenorth isn’t serious
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12:20:33  <andythenorth> but we could have a github fork
12:20:38  <andythenorth> with feature branches
12:20:38  <_dp_> LordAro, what do you mean? FcInit doesn't reitialize when called in succession. but openttd also calls FcFini all the time
12:20:41  <andythenorth> grouped around topics
12:20:59  <Wolf01> <- added pic with settings
12:21:01  <andythenorth> i.e. SE topic
12:21:05  <LordAro> _dp_: are we talking about the same thing? afaict, FcInit only needs to be called once per program run
12:21:06  <andythenorth> map gen topic
12:21:10  <andythenorth> etc
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12:22:02  <_dp_> LordAro, yeah, but it doesn't matter how many times it is called unless there is a FcFini in between them
12:22:09  <andythenorth> I’m totally not convinced that the sub-arctic map gen is doing anything worth having
12:22:25  <andythenorth> the higher mountains are better achieved by selecting 'alpinist'
12:23:52  <LordAro> oh, right
12:24:01  <Pikka> andythenorth, no I can't. Although I've had several people in the last couple of weeks tell me I should be running at state level
12:24:05  <LordAro> i've been misreading FcFini as FcInit this whole time
12:24:30  <Wolf01> andythenorth: updated imgur with a bigger map
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12:25:31  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so what changes then? :)
12:25:39  <andythenorth> I can read the gist, but what is it doing now?
12:25:45  <LordAro> _dp_: yeah, call FcInit/FcFini in some global static data structure and be done with it
12:26:04  <Wolf01> andythenorth: First 4 levels are more flat
12:26:36  <andythenorth> does it still flatten mountains?
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12:28:32  <Wolf01> Updated imgur again
12:28:33  <_dp_> LordAro, or just never call FcFini
12:28:57  <LordAro> _dp_: it wouldn't be good form to not cleanup after ourselves
12:29:23  <andythenorth> NoTerrain
12:29:26  <andythenorth> script it :P
12:29:36  <_dp_> LordAro, but main question here is whether is it necessary to do FcFini before entering the game
12:29:44  <andythenorth> let people write their own terrain manglers
12:29:53  <andythenorth> put em on bananaramas
12:30:05  <LordAro> probably not
12:30:09  <_dp_> LordAro, theoretically it can save up some memory by the expence of reintializing fontconfig when it's going to be needed again
12:30:14  <andythenorth> probably not even the hardest mod, terrain mangling
12:30:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: like i said, NoOTTD
12:30:18  <andythenorth> it’s only maths, no vars
12:30:26  <andythenorth> LordAro: it’s a catchy phrase
12:30:33  <LordAro> NoooTTD
12:30:39  <andythenorth> NooTTD
12:30:48  <_dp_> MooTTD
12:30:48  <Wolf01> Noot
12:30:49  <LordAro> whatever happened to YA<thing>
12:30:50  <andythenorth> said ‘newTTD'
12:30:58  <andythenorth> YA<thing> is now a proven bad joke
12:31:09  <LordAro> bad jokes can still be funny
12:31:10  <Wolf01> I'll edit a seed box in the new landscape on SE
12:31:15  <andythenorth> should have been YA<thing>deleting<oldthing>
12:32:14  <andythenorth> Terrain is just a tile loop?
12:32:26  <andythenorth> do it in some functional programming language :D
12:32:30  <andythenorth> for extra cool points :P
12:32:37  <andythenorth> Haskell?
12:33:26  <Wolf01> Create a scenario via GS
12:34:52  <_dp_> LordAro, it's kind of hard to move fonconfig initialization to global because it's stateless and you never know if it going to be needed or whether it was initialized
12:34:58  <andythenorth> eh?
12:35:10  <andythenorth> ^ sounds like he’d need a very specific network to get that to work ever
12:35:35  <_dp_> LordAro, solvable with extra bool though
12:35:54  <andythenorth> is there anyone here who uses timetables properly?
12:36:16  <Wolf01> Timetables are way too obscure to be used properly
12:36:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Eh, it makes sense, that's how real railways work :P
12:36:53  <LordAro> _dp_: hrm
12:36:56  <FLHerne> Why would you manually skip a station (without changing the TT) if not to avoid delays?
12:37:14  <FLHerne> I'm not convinced it's possible to use timetables "properly"
12:37:37  <Wolf01> I'm not convinced a vehicle in R-world skips stations
12:37:59  <ic111> I rewrote timetables here  (I know it´s big...)
12:38:02  <andythenorth> I can’t comment on timetable requests, because I have zero use for a broken feature
12:38:05  <andythenorth> but someone ought to
12:38:15  <FLHerne> They're far too complicated for general top-down management, but the smaller details like start dates and that bug are almost designed to make micromanagement impractical
12:38:33  <FLHerne> Wolf01: The trains here certainly do
12:38:46  <andythenorth> here are the requests I’ve found so far:
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12:39:46  <Wolf01> FLHerne: Trains here don't even arrive when they are late, and when they arrive they stop at the station because passengers already found another way to get to destination (like the next train)
12:39:56  <LordAro> ah, good ol' FS search urls
12:40:11  <ic111> I played with the native timetables in exactly one game - then I realized that I needed an external spreadsheet to keep track about them, and rewrote from scratch...
12:40:14  <FLHerne> Wolf01: If they leave Kings Cross late, they often skip some/all the stops before Stevenage (I think to make sure they cross the bottleneck at Welwyn in their booked slot)
12:40:57  <Wolf01> Maybe your lines are better organized
12:41:53  <Wolf01> Here you have 1 train every 40 minutes (average), so if one gets >40' late, then you just take the next one and the late one stops at the first big station
12:42:11  <FLHerne> Well, that's what the buses do
12:42:33  <FLHerne> The ECML is a bit busier than that :P
12:42:40  <andythenorth> FLHerne: what order should it skip? o_O
12:42:52  <andythenorth> what if it’s a servicing order, and it breaks down?
12:43:06  <andythenorth> what if cdist needs the order to calculate link stats?
12:43:27  <andythenorth> what if it’s a conditional order and the vehicle gets stuck in a loop?
12:43:39  <andythenorth> ok ‘what if’ is silly :)
12:43:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's not what the bug asks for
12:44:19  * andythenorth reads again
12:44:19  <andythenorth> ok
12:44:29  <andythenorth> so that one’s valid?
12:44:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The problem is that if you manually skip an order, it also skips the timetabled time for that order
12:44:39  <andythenorth> sounds a bit crap
12:44:43  <andythenorth> is it a bug?
12:44:49  <FLHerne> Which is completely insane
12:44:52  <FLHerne> Who knows? :P
12:45:15  <FLHerne> I mean, it makes no sense and helps make timetables impossible to manage
12:45:26  <FLHerne> But that's every aspect of the timetable system
12:45:54  <ic111> IMHO, the design flaw in the present system is that you configure a relative time ("travel 6 days") at all
12:46:06  <ic111> IMHO, timetables need to be specified in an absolute manner
12:46:16  <ic111> E.g., depart "3rd August 1925"
12:47:10  <ic111> Then the next order can specify "Arrive 17th August, Depart 21st August", and so on...
12:47:34  * andythenorth reading the TIP thread
12:47:35  <_dp_> LordAro, I genuinely hate adding global variables :p
12:47:37  <ic111> And once the last order is done, you increase all dates by a given timetable length, and start at the beginning
12:48:29  <andythenorth> I’ve only scan read, but it makes more sense than ‘travel n days'
12:48:39  <andythenorth> I never understood that
12:48:45  <andythenorth> vehicle has a speed
12:48:46  <LordAro> _dp_: i mean, you're not wrong
12:49:06  <andythenorth> with timetables, if a vehicle travels 5 days, but needs 10 to do the route, wtf happens?
12:49:09  <andythenorth> does it just stop>?
12:49:12  <andythenorth> seems fucked :)
12:49:23  <FLHerne> ic111: How does your patch do old-game compatibility? Does it?
12:49:33  <andythenorth> specifying how many days a vehicle takes violates s=d/t physics
12:49:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It just gets increasingly late
12:49:57  <andythenorth> I have had timetables explained to me about 5 times
12:49:59  <ic111> I´ve need to look into the code myself ;-)  (implemented some years ago already...)
12:50:13  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can specify buffer time at key points to counteract that (which is why drive-in stops are useful)
12:50:17  <andythenorth> they conceptually make absolutely no sense
12:50:22  <andythenorth> vehicles have a speed
12:50:29  <andythenorth> does the timetable slow the vehicle down>?
12:50:38  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No
12:50:48  <andythenorth> ok, so the concept is just a lie :)
12:51:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If the vehicle arrives earlier than it was supposed to, it waits at that station until it's time to leave
12:51:18  * andythenorth isn’t actually being difficult here, I really don’t understand timetables at all
12:51:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If it arrives late, it leaves as soon as possible
12:51:31  <andythenorth> but after loading?
12:51:34  <andythenorth> or without loading?
12:51:37  <FLHerne> Yes
12:51:51  <FLHerne> With whatever the orders say
12:51:56  <andythenorth> what’s the objective?
12:52:04  <andythenorth> is it modelling realism?
12:52:16  <andythenorth> there are people out there with the National Rail website?
12:52:18  <FLHerne> Essentially, the only behaviour of timetables is to force vehicles to wait at stations for longer than they normally would
12:52:22  <ic111> The objective is that you can make your vehicle pass certain stations etc. at defined dates.
12:52:36  <ic111> E.g., I can make a long distance train overtake a short distance train at a defined station
12:52:56  <FLHerne> More straightforwardly, it's the only in-game way to prevent vehicles bunching up
12:53:05  <andythenorth> why don’t people just use this instead?
12:53:09  <andythenorth> if they want to track trains
12:53:22  <FLHerne> (because you can enforce a fixed round-trip time, and then set start dates at fractions of that time)
12:53:33  <ic111> Or I can make two trains meet at a station at a defined date
12:53:33  <ic111> where they can exchange passengers
12:53:37  <ic111> Plus I can make vehicles travel in a defined interval, i.e. one train every two or four months, instead of a random order
12:53:44  <andythenorth> oh so you could have a train meet a ferry?
12:53:49  <ic111> yes
12:54:11  <andythenorth> so you could synchronise feeders?
12:54:15  <FLHerne> Yes
12:54:16  <ic111> yes
12:54:38  <andythenorth> and doing that with conditional orders would be crap
12:54:44  <FLHerne> But at the moment, they're such a complete pain to set up that even I don't bother usually :-/
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12:54:49  <andythenorth> also defining some kind of ‘routes’ system would be crap
12:54:51  <LordAro> ic111: hrm, i cannot get 270 to apply
12:55:33  <andythenorth> it’s the ‘travel’ thing that puts me right off
12:55:55  <FLHerne> Yeah, ic111's thing is vastly better
12:56:11  <ic111> did you use the version 20 attached to the first post?
12:56:18  <LordAro> yeah
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12:56:39  <ic111> Hm, I last checked in April that it applies against trunk
12:56:48  <andythenorth> NoTimetables
12:57:00  <LordAro> (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
12:57:02  <ic111> So maybe a change in trunk since then, I´d have to look at it
12:57:03  <LordAro> wait, i misread
12:57:07  <andythenorth> nice glyphs
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12:57:22  <LordAro> ic111: oh, lol
12:57:32  <LordAro> it was the last commit that broke it
12:57:37  <LordAro> my commit :)
12:57:42  <LordAro> frosch123: quak
12:57:47  <andythenorth> quak
12:58:00  <frosch123> hoi
12:58:51  <ic111> andythenorth: I removed the routes in a later version
12:59:26  <andythenorth> ic111 I’d offer to test it, it looks better, but honestly I am the wrong person to give opinions on timetables :)
13:00:16  <andythenorth> :o
13:00:19  <andythenorth> this is news to me
13:00:22  <ic111> Thank you, maybe a person that never dealt with timetables before is not that bad at all...
13:01:01  <andythenorth> FIRS doesn’t define any tile output
13:01:05  <andythenorth> how come it works?
13:01:23  <ic111> Note: I will be totally offline Sunday to Tuesday or Wednesday, so if you ask some question etc. and I don´t answer, this is the reason
13:02:18  <andythenorth> k
13:04:41  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is no tile output, that's what the task asks about
13:04:57  <andythenorth> ah
13:05:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: you disabled tile input because it sucks, the task asks to make output as bad as input
13:05:40  <andythenorth> thanks
13:05:47  <andythenorth> I’ll leave it
13:06:44  <andythenorth> _dp_ we talked about this one I think, did we conclude anything?
13:07:18  <ic111> andythenorth: Just one hint: I implemented specifying timetable lengths etc. in Days, Months, or Years, but experience shows, that you usually want to specify it in Months.  Days are useful if you really need a train every 15 days (but have the problem that months have variable length, which the Month variant shadows).
13:07:46  <andythenorth> does this mean I can deliver FIRS supplies guaranteed once per month? o_O
13:07:57  <ic111> yes
13:08:44  <ic111> If a timetable has e.g. length 4 months, and you have an order "Depart 15 January", then the next departure will be "15th May", regardless of the month length in between.
13:11:46  <_dp_> lagging heavily here, sorry
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13:23:30  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I am re-prioritising feature requests: high -> current goals; low -> maybe a goal in future
13:23:40  <andythenorth> is SE stuff high or low?
13:23:42  <andythenorth> o_O
13:23:52  <LordAro> medium
13:23:54  <LordAro> :p
13:23:57  <andythenorth> nah
13:24:03  <andythenorth> LordAro is a troll :)
13:24:57  <LordAro> i try my best :)
13:25:31  <_dp_> andythenorth, what conclusion do you want? it useful feature imo, but not an easy one and nobody seems to be interested in implementing it.
13:25:41  <_dp_> andythenorth, also I'm not very interested in implementing it since I'm already pretty close to having similar stuff on citymania (which is a pile of hacks ofc so not reusable sadly).
13:25:57  <LordAro> i don't think you can classify things based on how interested people are in implementing it
13:26:13  <andythenorth> orly? :)
13:28:26  <andythenorth> _dp_ thanks :)
13:29:22  <Wolf01> andythenorth: roadmap
13:29:47  <andythenorth> so it’s a goal?
13:31:01  <Wolf01> We don't have a roadmap since 1.3
13:31:19  <ic111> Beside the aforementioned reject in patch 270 (which has a quite trivial fix) the timetables patch applies for me.
13:31:29  <andythenorth> roadmaps are bollocks imho :)
13:31:38  <LordAro> ic111: i've had 3/4 so far
13:31:43  <andythenorth> except as far as setting ‘current goals'
13:31:43  <LordAro> none are difficult to fix
13:31:57  <LordAro> it might be git being more picky
13:32:37  <ic111> Conversion of old timetable information indeed isn´t done, patch 280 does something with the start dates and lengths, but zeros the arrivals and departures out.
13:32:43  <andythenorth> I can’t adjust FS, probably wise
13:32:52  <ic111> What do you mean with "3/4"?
13:32:59  <LordAro> 3 or 4 conflicts
13:33:02  <andythenorth> but I would categorise things ‘interesting’, ‘might be interesting later’, ‘dull’
13:33:07  <ic111> Huh?
13:34:08  <ic111> I downloaded trunk just a moment ago, applied the, and all I got was this conflict in 270, where you did something in a code block my patch removes
13:34:22  <Wolf01> andythenorth: what are the current goals?
13:34:46  <andythenorth>
13:34:52  <LordAro> ic111: i'm using git am to (very slowly) apply the patch queue, all of other issues have been with the diff's "context", rather than the code itself
13:35:13  <andythenorth> the goals were set by the only person actively committing
13:35:16  <andythenorth> which seems fair tbh
13:35:22  <Wolf01> andythenorth: that are the game lifetime goals, not current ones
13:35:27  <andythenorth> yes
13:35:34  <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out current ones :)
13:35:39  <ic111> ok, I checked out using hg, and seems that it was more friendly against differences...
13:36:12  <andythenorth> current goals are likely to be both (a) things that devs with commit access support (b) things that interest people writing the patch
13:36:51  <andythenorth> SE is interesting, because it’s probably easy to get big UI wins with no worries about savegame, desync, NoGo, NoAI, newgrf etc
13:37:39  <_dp_> I'd it would be more benefitial to focus on small improvements rather than big rewrites for now.
13:37:56  <Wolf01> SE always got a background role
13:37:57  <_dp_> Unless there is someone who is ready to do such rewrites ;)
13:39:38  <andythenorth> also, if .scn format stays same
13:39:57  <andythenorth> we could get an official build of an SE  fork, and players could try it as a binary
13:40:07  <andythenorth> whilst being able to use the results in any compatible ottd
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13:42:18  <Wolf01> I think a current goal could be to focus on daylength, people really enjoy it much, I would too, and I think we can get some compromises
13:43:00  <andythenorth> I can’t see that getting into trunk tbh :)
13:43:19  <andythenorth> it’s probably confined to patchpacks
13:43:34  <Wolf01> Then everything is confined to patchpacks
13:44:35  <LordAro> in a perfect world, uncoupling how fast the date changes from the game's tick rate should be easy
13:44:37  <Wolf01> DL is not a big change, only scatters some multiplications around, the problem is to multiply the right things
13:44:42  <andythenorth> even just train prop 97 blocks DL
13:45:00  <andythenorth> if you want to change that, you might likely need approval from MB and george
13:45:31  <andythenorth> I proposed before just lying about the date
13:45:38  <Wolf01> We could provide a different value for tick counter, accordingly to daylength
13:45:59  <andythenorth> but the train grfs are relying on ticks to do date-related things
13:46:03  <andythenorth> [maybe]
13:46:13  <andythenorth> DL pisses me off tbh :)
13:46:27  <andythenorth> nobody makes any sense about it so far
13:46:37  <andythenorth> if the only purpose is to display a different date
13:46:42  <andythenorth> why don’t we just lie about the date?
13:46:46  <Wolf01> Instead they should do date stuff related to date, not try to calculate the date
13:46:59  <andythenorth> instead of trying to change the fundamentals of many game loops and tick counters
13:47:28  <Wolf01> What if we need to change to another value of tick counter some day?
13:47:46  <LordAro> andythenorth: doing that effectively would be a worse hack, imo
13:48:08  <andythenorth> oh well :)
13:48:12  * andythenorth is out of ideas then
13:52:36  <ic111> DayLength: What I don´t understand is: You have the I would like to call it real-time-part of the game mechanics, i.e. how fast do trains move, how fast are passengers generated, and so on.
13:53:28  <ic111> This part - ok, in some respect I regard it as not 100 percent balanced - but beside this, this part is senseful as it is IMHO
13:53:39  <ic111> At least, it doesn´t need to be changed by a huge factor
13:53:42  <_dp_> DL seems so easy on outside, it's tempting to do a patch :)
13:54:18  <andythenorth> so many have
13:54:38  <andythenorth> :D
13:55:00  <ic111> So, concerning day length I would expect that one talks about (1) the long term game mechanics, e.g., how many years does the game spend, until the next engine becomes available
13:55:52  <ic111> and (2) maybe about pure GUI, e.g. display a time like "13:30" that approximately matches vehicle movement speed, instead of a date
13:56:12  <ic111> Now you tell me that many things are based on ticks, especially with NewGRFs.
13:57:11  <ic111> But for those things, that I called "real time part" above, if you just don´t change the speed of those ticks (relative to real world time) you shouldn´t need to change anything
13:57:12  <_dp_> ic111, for time to match speed there has to be some notion of distance in relation to real world :p
13:57:22  <ic111> yes, of course
13:57:36  <LordAro> ic111: for funsies
13:57:37  <_dp_> ic111, well, openttd has none afaik
13:58:38  <ic111> But well, a train traveling between two cities between 13:30 and 13:50 looks much more aligned with time, than a city traveling for 20 days.
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13:58:58  <ic111> back to above...
14:00:34  * _dp_ lives in a country where travelling for days between cities is pretty common
14:00:38  <ic111> So I would expect that you would need to do something about things that happen on a long time scale (like new vehicles showing up), and on GUI.
14:01:09  <ic111> Now, given that, I don´t understand where those many places where factors would have to be adjusted are.
14:02:08  <andythenorth> search ‘tick’ in /src? o_O
14:02:17  <LordAro> lol
14:02:23  <Wolf01> _tick_counter
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14:03:16  <_dp_> andythenorth, 1462
14:03:53  <andythenorth> probably fine
14:04:21  <LordAro> ic111: ooh, apparently i just broke it as well
14:04:28  <LordAro> game's completely locked up
14:04:38  <ic111> Yes, but if you just don´t touch the tick vs. real world time ratio, and just (more or less) add extra game years, e.g. not switch from 1910 to 1911, but from 1910 to 1910.A to 1910.B to 1910.C ... to 1911, how many of those occurrences persist?
14:05:22  <LordAro> impressively locked up, i had to kill -9 it
14:05:22  <andythenorth> ic111: are you proposing just lying about the date? o_O
14:06:38  <_dp_> to me lying about date sounds like changing amount of ticks per day
14:07:53  <_dp_> and if I were to write DL patch I'd go that route
14:08:14  <Wolf01> _dp_: yes, that is what I wanted to implement
14:08:31  *** supermop has joined #openttd
14:08:33  <ic111> Just lying about the date is probably not enough, but enlarging the time interval until new vehicles arrive, and similar things I would suspect
14:08:33  <ic111> LordAro: Now I am surprised.
14:08:33  <ic111> What did you do?
14:08:37  <ic111> andythenorth: Or, if people add more changes to their dayLength patches, what is their goal in doing so?
14:08:57  <LordAro> ic111: i am trying to work that out
14:09:50  <_dp_> Wolf01, I know for sure there will be problems with town gui and GS api :)
14:10:17  <Wolf01> Yes, for sure
14:10:17  <andythenorth> ic111: I have no idea what people do with DL :)
14:10:22  <_dp_> because it kind of assumes TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS ~= TICKS_PER_DAY
14:10:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause gave me a 100% working 2 or 3 line DL patch once
14:10:54  <andythenorth> at the end of every year, it reset the year back again
14:11:02  <andythenorth> it might have had a counter to only do it once
14:11:12  <andythenorth> totally 100% bug free
14:11:12  <Wolf01> I have one patch with 3 characters
14:11:15  <ic111> Thats what I effectively do using the Date cheat
14:11:32  <andythenorth> had some interesting effects on things like…date sensitive industry animations
14:11:38  <andythenorth> and vehicle intro dates
14:11:39  <Wolf01> But for example we need to identify cases where daylength must be applied, like this one: (_tick_counter + t->index) % TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS == 0
14:12:09  <ic111> And using the Date cheat in my experience never caused problems.
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14:12:44  <_dp_> Wolf01, that part doesn't seem affected by tics per day to me
14:13:19  <Wolf01> _dp_: no, but do you want cities to grog 4,8, 10 times faster?
14:13:22  <Wolf01> *ggrow
14:13:25  <Wolf01> *fuck
14:14:00  <_dp_> Wolf01, faster in relation to game date not real time, right?
14:14:10  <_dp_> then I actually do
14:14:17  <_dp_> but I understand if some people don't
14:14:45  <milek7> imo problem with daylength is not that it is hard to implement, but everybody have diffirent opinion on how it should work :p
14:15:12  <Wolf01> The only biggest problem with DL is the economy, you have a train moving 8x faster and making 8x more profit for the same "day time"
14:15:31  <Wolf01> Dividing it doesn't work
14:15:52  <Wolf01> You will slow down the entire game pace
14:16:11  <Wolf01> Making 8x more real time to be able to purchase another train
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14:16:55  <Wolf01> So we could compromise on economy, because we keep the same game pace, but just slowing down the time at which new generations will be introduced
14:17:04  <milek7> isn't that the point, to slow down game pace?
14:17:19  <Wolf01> No
14:17:30  <andythenorth> I don’t think there is a single point
14:17:31  <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, that why I'd leave tick-based stuff intact and suggest using basecost, town speed setting, etc.
14:17:31  <Wolf01> Just one aspect of it
14:17:35  <andythenorth> NoDaylength?
14:17:44  <andythenorth> script daylength with mods
14:17:55  <andythenorth> it’s impossible to do in core
14:18:09  <andythenorth> there is no clear definition of what it is
14:18:28  <LordAro> ic111: so i can reproduce it
14:18:58  <andythenorth> segment and group the places where daylength would be applied (places using ticks)
14:19:08  <andythenorth> define static constants for them
14:19:19  <andythenorth> let newgrf modify those constanst, once, on game start
14:19:29  <LordAro> ic111: make bus route (nothing fancy); set "default" timetable start, offset & length; change timetable length down to 0 months, then to days, then to maximum (20)
14:19:31  <andythenorth> there will be about 8 or so probably
14:19:36  <LordAro> wait a bit; hard freeze
14:19:43  <LordAro> not entirely sure how much of that is necessary
14:19:46  <_dp_> andythenorth, newgrf again :(
14:19:48  <andythenorth> yes
14:19:49  <LordAro> but it seems to be stuck in a loop somewhere
14:19:51  <andythenorth> job done
14:20:06  <andythenorth> nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API
14:20:10  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's such a pain to configure server when everything is in a newgrf
14:20:28  <andythenorth> it’s such a pain to have options where none existed before :)
14:20:30  <LordAro> ic111: seems to happen when the bus finishes loading
14:21:23  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API <- it would be cool if core allowed it
14:21:35  <andythenorth> well the API has to be in core
14:21:44  <andythenorth> but it abdicates having to make choices
14:21:51  <andythenorth> which is better in this case
14:22:14  <LordAro> ic111: gdb output seems to imply a loop somewhere around CorrectTimetableOffset
14:24:07  <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need to choose an API :p
14:24:15  <andythenorth> yes
14:26:29  <ic111> LordAro:
14:26:42  <ic111> Indeed, setting the timetable length to zero is the problem.
14:27:20  <LordAro> yeah, i've just pinpointed the do {} while loop :)
14:27:23  <_dp_> making and maintaining API is much harder than just regular features, only worth it if there are many mods using that api
14:27:28  <Wolf01> andythenorth: And a DL API should decide to slow down the entire game pace even by slowing down vehicles making them travel a tile in a minute?
14:27:29  <LordAro> looks like it's missing a case for 0
14:27:43  <ic111> If you look into the loop in vehicle_base.h / CorrectTimetableOffset, then I shift the timetable by its length, *and* the exit condition depends on length and min_offset there
14:27:53  <andythenorth> Wolf01: if there’s a constant for that, then yes
14:28:01  <LordAro> :)
14:28:05  <ic111> I just should prevent setting the length to zero, having a timetable of length zero is senseless.
14:28:14  <LordAro> ic111: incidentally, why are those functions in the header? shouldn't they be in the cpp?
14:28:21  <andythenorth> there is literally nobody in the community who could get a daylength patch through, socially
14:28:50  <ic111> (and because of that, I probably never triggered the case during playing ;-))
14:28:57  <Wolf01> I'm open to critiques and debates
14:29:21  <LordAro> ic111: see, having people who have no idea what they're doing is useful
14:29:22  <LordAro> :p
14:29:44  <Wolf01> But I'm also biased
14:29:58  <ic111> LordAro: Good question, probably I tried to mimic what I found before
14:30:22  <LordAro> ic111: in terms of some other feedback, the timetable window shouldn't be default, and i think its minimum size is far too wide
14:30:50  <LordAro> but still despite not knowing how to make it work, it looks a lot better than the current one
14:31:22  <ic111> LordAro: Making it work: Just don´t touch the length = zero case, or did I miss some additional problem?
14:32:27  <ic111> And: I´ll try to add comments in the forum thread with your points, but as you find quite a lot of them, please note problems there if I don´t do it.
14:32:49  <ic111> Getting five bugs / change requests in a chat increases the probability that you miss two of them ;-)
14:33:30  <LordAro> ic111: no, i've just not tried anything much beyond that :p
14:37:00  <ic111> Added feedback there:
14:37:31  <LordAro> :)
14:37:34  * LordAro vanishes
14:40:45  <ic111> Regarding opening the timetable window: There is a setting "Open timetable view (with orders, arrivals, departures) by default"; so this request is just about which value the setting takes by default
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14:40:47  <milek7> for me daylength should: increase ticks per day, lower payment rates
14:41:48  <milek7> and increase cargo production if it is day based (leave unchanged if tick based)
14:42:05  <supermop> ic111 the 24 hour clock works reasonably well for what you describe
14:42:49  <supermop> of course you still end up with thousands of passengers at your station at 04:00
14:44:37  <andythenorth> ic111 do you have a github repo for TIP?
14:44:56  <ic111> No.
14:45:03  <andythenorth> oh :|
14:45:16  <andythenorth> nvm
14:45:46  <ic111> nvm?
14:45:47  <_dp_> milek7, imo there enough allmighty settings already. one setting should control one thing
14:46:17  <_dp_> milek7, if you want all 3 then do 3, one for daylength, one for payment one for cargo
14:46:25  <andythenorth> if you have a repo, you can ask to get binaries built on the ottd compile farm
14:46:36  <_dp_> but then, again, some if it is newgrfble so nothing gets done :(
14:46:39  <andythenorth> doesn’t have to be github, but eh, why use anything else?
14:47:06  <ic111> There was an attempt to set up an project there some years ago, as far as I remember parts of that project exist.
14:47:14  <andythenorth> I did it for NRT
14:47:18  <andythenorth> just clone openttd git repo
14:47:22  <andythenorth> make a branch
14:47:32  <andythenorth> dunno how you’d get a patch queue in there
14:47:38  <ic111> But things stopped before a repository was actually activated, and at that time, the repository wasn´ t that important as there was someone building windows binaries for me
14:47:43  <andythenorth> queues are daft
14:47:56  <supermop> I feel like nrt is so much easier to test and solve problems with because of that
14:48:02  <andythenorth> queues throw away everything good about a repo, because they’re private
14:48:03  <Alberth> queues are different
14:48:13  <Wolf01> andythenorth: what if we provide DL factor to grfs? One could use it for calculations?
14:48:44  <andythenorth> Alberth: or have I misunderstood queues?
14:49:00  <Alberth> depends on how yo see patch files
14:49:14  <Alberth> I regularly edit and shuffle those files
14:49:22  <Alberth> which is next to impossible in git
14:49:41  <Wolf01> I'll try a game with DL factor set to 1200
14:50:00  <Alberth> there is cherry-pick, but you need the entire commit machinery then
14:50:13  <Alberth> eg rename a variable that you added
14:50:18  <Alberth> trivial in a diff file
14:52:12  <ic111> It´s also a question of, which tools are you used to.  I mean, given that I know how to use patch files, and didn´t use git so far (real world software development in my case is svn), switching to git because of a couple of bugfixes doesn´t seem senseful to me.
14:52:21  <Alberth> splitting or editing the change
14:53:35  <Alberth> git branches can't easily be stacked and changed
14:54:24  <Alberth> ie you have much better access to the changes that you make, rather than only to the state of the file at some point in the patch
14:55:19  <Alberth> unfortunately, hg seems to be moving away from patch queues too, afaik
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14:56:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: dunno about providing DL to grfs
14:56:25  <andythenorth> the problem I can forsee there
14:56:30  <andythenorth> is grf authors vs. players
14:56:41  <andythenorth> but eh, am I here to sort out social problems? :P
14:56:53  <Wolf01> Yes, but not alone
14:57:21  <andythenorth> ic111 the upside of going to any repo that the compile farm can build…is binaries
14:57:32  <andythenorth> binaries => more players
14:57:43  <milek7> Alberth: interactive rebasing
14:57:52  * andythenorth would like to see 20 or 30 forks building on farm
14:58:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, if only it worked like that...
14:58:14  <andythenorth> worked for NRT
14:58:19  <andythenorth> which is my sole data point so far
14:58:34  <andythenorth> only way to prove that wrong is try more
14:58:54  <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, feels like it kinda works coz 1 >> 0 (not talking NRT here) but meh...
14:59:14  <Alberth> milek7: I know that's git solution, but try changing something you changed in some commit spread all over the place
14:59:22  <Alberth> diff file gives me 1 file to edit
15:00:00  <Alberth> andI I don't get any match on code I didn't touch
15:00:47  <milek7> commit it, run rebase, move it under original commit you want to modify and change pick to squash
15:01:05  <milek7> but yes, more complicated than patch files ;p
15:01:27  <Alberth> I have also been editing patches higher in the queue to avoid merge conflicts
15:02:01  <Alberth> both git and hg are incredibly stupid in understanding there is nothing else but the sequence patches that they have
15:03:29  <_dp_> andythenorth, in other words there are not that many active players so if we make more binaries some of them are bound to get 0 interest
15:04:14  <andythenorth> and yet people apply patches and test them
15:04:17  <andythenorth> forums tell us that
15:04:19  <_dp_> andythenorth, while having binaries may increase interest in a patch it won't increase overall amount of players
15:04:23  <andythenorth> what’s the loss of having binaries?
15:04:37  * andythenorth is confused by the supposed downsides?
15:04:46  <andythenorth> computer does the work
15:05:11  <_dp_> andythenorth, nah, no loss rly, I'd like to see it too
15:05:49  <andythenorth> ok 461 FS issues left
15:06:02  <andythenorth> I have hit maximum boredom now
15:06:29  <andythenorth> I have a list of 15 more that I totally cannot review alone
15:07:02  <_dp_> andythenorth, just "binaries => more players" sounds a bit too enticing :)
15:07:15  * _dp_ hopes he picked a right word out of dictionary 
15:07:21  <andythenorth> oh yeah, that was probably lame
15:07:43  <andythenorth> binaries => fractionally higher chance of useful feedback
15:08:09  <andythenorth> this: way out of my wheelhouse
15:08:13  <andythenorth> but 7 years old
15:08:16  <andythenorth> NFI
15:09:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's a hack, but a damn good one :p
15:10:52  <andythenorth> <- isn’t there GS deity for this?
15:11:06  <supermop> I only play binaries
15:11:11  <supermop> can't be asked to compile
15:13:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, I didn't get all the details in that particular bug, but in general server feels very handicapped
15:14:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, I remember some check like that one giving me a lot of troubles
15:14:52  <andythenorth> another one: 10 years old
15:16:30  <_dp_> 992 is implemented imo
15:16:38  <_dp_> there is always something to improve
15:16:48  <andythenorth> ok
15:17:38  <supermop> what does TIP do?
15:17:39  <andythenorth> ah this
15:17:40  <andythenorth>
15:17:49  <_dp_> and any stored password is pretty much bound to be unencrypted
15:17:49  <andythenorth> ^ this is what I think has fucked OpenTTD a bit
15:18:03  <andythenorth> _dp_: well you could always store the key locally
15:18:06  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
15:18:55  <_dp_> andythenorth, decryption key you mean?
15:19:05  <_dp_> andythenorth, that's not much different from plain text imo
15:19:19  <andythenorth> well you could put the key in a key store
15:19:23  <andythenorth> and keep the key for that locally
15:19:30  <andythenorth> yair
15:19:34  * andythenorth is bored :P
15:19:40  <_dp_> andythenorth, then you have a key to uncrypt a key :p
15:19:44  <andythenorth> can we talk about FIRS now?
15:19:48  <andythenorth> at least that can make progress
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15:25:55  <_dp_> I think we have two mods vanishing already after I gave them access for configuring new firs server xD
15:27:25  <andythenorth> too much FIRS
15:27:25  <andythenorth> ?
15:27:51  <_dp_> too much work I guess
15:28:19  <_dp_> it's a cb so you need to balance it properly
15:28:31  <_dp_> and find right grfs for everything
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15:29:50  <supermop> what needs to be fixed in unspooled?
15:30:31  <_dp_> also custom industry sets need custom mapgens in cb to fairly place industries for everyone
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15:41:45  <andythenorth> supermop: find some FS issues to close, and I’ll tell you? o_O
15:41:51  <andythenorth> actually I don’t know :)
15:53:41  <Wolf01> I'm still reasoning about balancing income and running costs
15:56:11  <Wolf01> Maybe I should think about it while lucid dreaming, so I have a lot more time, but it's difficult and I always get up with headache
16:04:04  <supermop> hmm should I composit on tram bogies?
16:05:08  <supermop> vanilla RVs are 7/8
16:05:16  <supermop> :(
16:05:37  <supermop> need to redo whole template
16:06:15  <supermop> also... I take 1/8 in _ to be 4px
16:06:34  <supermop> and 2 px in ?
16:06:36  <supermop> /
16:06:44  <supermop> and 1.5 in |
16:06:58  <supermop> feel like I don't like that somehow
16:07:15  <supermop> also I guess this is why all my bendy buses have such a gap
16:09:50  <supermop> if I build my trams out of 1/8 end cabs, and n*2/8 body segments, some of which may have wheels...
16:09:59  <supermop> I am generally happy
16:10:16  <supermop> but there is no natural place to put doors, espescially on older trams
16:10:39  <andythenorth> bendy trams
16:11:22  <supermop> if I make the cabs 2/8 that works better for end doors, and modern aerodynamic cabs
16:11:58  <supermop> but then its unclear where to put the wheels, as the shortest trams will be all cab
16:12:52  <supermop> so can just make different rules for each generation of tram, but then why even bother with a system
16:14:35  <supermop> I guess compositing on doors could work
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16:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the trams that i know usually have doors near the cab
16:28:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and sometimes in the middle
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16:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> also:
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16:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (that middle door is in a separate bendy section)
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16:48:58  <supermop_home> Eddi|zuHause does that segment have wheels?
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16:50:25  <supermop_home> the anglo American world doesn't have enough yellow buildings
16:50:55  <supermop_home> SE Asia, latin america, central and eastern Europe all have lots
16:51:03  <supermop_home> color never caught on here
17:03:58  <Eddi|zuHause> make east german houses: all grey
17:04:23  <supermop_home> what about before the war?
17:05:35  <Eddi|zuHause> about the wheels: you see the little cutouts at the bottom? that's where the wheels are:,_Potsdam,_Neubauten_am_Platz_der_Einheit_(cropped).jpg
17:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: i don't know about before the war... all relevant pictures are black and white
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17:14:34  <peter1138> urgh
17:15:11  <Wolf01> supermop_home: with good accuracy you can go for brick-yellow and copper-oxyde for roofs
17:15:35  <Wolf01> But it might vary between different places
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17:27:51  <andythenorth> now what shall I do?
17:27:54  <andythenorth> test patches?
17:48:49  <Alberth> 2837 could be done by saving the game and loading it again?
17:52:44  <Alberth> 5390 needs that nogo change, and even then I am not convinced, ie why would you need an event for a destroyed house?
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17:59:27  <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll close 2837
18:01:30  <andythenorth> 5390 - it’s an anti-griefing measure according to forum thread
18:01:42  <andythenorth> prevents vandalism on city-builder goal servers
18:01:51  * andythenorth didn’t read the whole thread :P
18:03:05  <andythenorth> @calc 840-459
18:03:06  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 381
18:03:19  <andythenorth> after about 300 ‘no’, it’s getting harder to say ‘no’ :)
18:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 33*49
18:03:23  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1617
18:03:28  <andythenorth> esp. about stuff I domn’t understand
18:03:34  <andythenorth> -m
18:04:21  <andythenorth> this would be dependent on the OS?
18:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> whenever a game works like that, i immediately disable it
18:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, that code would probably be platform specific
18:10:42  <andythenorth> I don’t really want to highlight fonso for this one
18:10:52  <andythenorth> that request is basically bollocks, no?
18:14:35  <andythenorth> I have NFI how you could have ’10% cargo dist'
18:14:48  <andythenorth> and 90% manual
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18:16:38  <Alberth> 2155 seems a good feature
18:16:54  <Alberth> not used much likely, as there are very few dedicated servers
18:18:10  <frosch123> ottd command line could use a redesign :)
18:18:41  <frosch123> it has many weird things, but lacks close related ones
18:18:44  <Alberth> technically, you can allocate less than 100% capacity for a line to CD
18:19:00  <Alberth> which means you have space left
18:19:01  <frosch123> i believe there are multiple fs tasks about console options
18:19:18  <Alberth> not sure how you get pax to enter such a train though
18:19:31  <Alberth> as CD has to decide which pax not to move itself
18:19:41  <frosch123> like, it's exactly the case where every single fs task is bad, but by combining them you can put together something sane
18:20:37  <frosch123> like, why in the world is there a parameter to set the starting year?
18:21:20  <andythenorth> because we don’t have tags, I have been prefixing stuff in the titles
18:21:26  <andythenorth> I can’t make much use of categories
18:21:47  <andythenorth> currently you can search e.g. “Timetable:”, “Orders:” “Scenario Editor:”
18:21:51  <andythenorth> trying to group stuff
18:22:32  <andythenorth> w.r.t 6466, unless I misunderstood cdist
18:22:43  <andythenorth> most of the magic happens when moving cargo into and out of vehicles
18:23:06  <frosch123> i have no experience with cdist, but i remember that there is cargo with unassigned destination sometimes
18:23:20  <frosch123> possibly only intermediate until the next calculation finishes
18:23:36  <andythenorth> that will be loaded onto vehicles without established links afaik
18:23:45  <andythenorth> actually no real clue :)
18:24:33  <andythenorth> but anyway, I cannot think how to even describe “10% manual and 90% cdist”
18:24:36  <andythenorth> or whatever
18:25:17  <Alberth> "unassigned" it will hop on to any unfilled train
18:25:57  <Alberth> frosch, is one you discussed with eddi
18:26:44  <Alberth> andy, the problem is likely how to point out pasengers that should not be routed by cdist
18:27:27  <Alberth> hmm, likely you can even do that given the capacity on a train
18:27:43  <Alberth> with a few unassigned, that should do the trick
18:28:16  <frosch123> Alberth: i do not see much point in a single seed variable
18:28:29  <frosch123> how much can you randomise with 32bits for everything?
18:28:54  <V453000> hm
18:29:01  <V453000> I see '32bits' and my eyes get red
18:29:05  <V453000> brain starts to boil
18:29:07  <V453000> you get the point
18:29:25  <frosch123> so you would rather need something which gives you a new random number every time
18:31:15  <Alberth> so, obsolete?
18:31:19  <Wolf01> 30+2bits
18:31:20  <frosch123> hmm, how was it worded in that c++ conference: we are not opposed to the idea, but it requires more thought on the etails
18:31:31  <Alberth> fair enough
18:32:35  <Alberth> andy, 5464 delivers 1 unit of cargo in round robin fashion to the industries, that will take forever to distribute eg ship deliveries
18:33:42  <andythenorth> ha
18:33:45  <andythenorth> close that
18:33:46  <andythenorth> :)
18:33:57  <frosch123> "EWG found the use case compelling, because (...). Several details still need to be worked out. "
18:33:58  <andythenorth> w.r.t to the seed, is anyone actually planning to use it?
18:34:07  <andythenorth> is it even a pony?
18:34:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: how does sound for a closing reason? :p
18:36:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: add a closing category “no pony today” ?
18:38:55  <frosch123> advanced settings selection is ill-formed, no diagnostics required
18:39:22  <frosch123> did i read too many c++ papers lately?
18:39:35  <LordAro> *not enough
18:42:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: should I close 5646, or does it need a fairer review?
18:43:03  <andythenorth> it’s only 2013, if it was older I’d bin it
18:43:14  <Alberth> 5464, I hope
18:43:21  <andythenorth> oops
18:43:26  <Alberth> ie cargo to multiple industries
18:43:33  <andythenorth> yup
18:43:45  <Alberth> patch is not fast enough
18:43:55  <andythenorth> we could just extend cdist
18:44:03  <andythenorth> create virtual links for move-to-industry
18:44:18  <Alberth> you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children
18:44:29  <andythenorth> or…use stations near the N tile and stop worrying about it
18:44:54  <andythenorth> ah…it’s lipstick on a pig, but if it was indicated at the station which industry was actually accepting…
18:44:58  <andythenorth> that would help :P
18:45:23  <Alberth> closest to the label afaik
18:46:01  <Alberth> I can see the value in the issue, but the solution just uses the wrong approach
18:46:27  <Alberth> it needs to calculate how to distribute, and then do it in one sweep
18:47:16  <Wolf01> <Alberth> you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children <- why not? And I also wait they finish the previous one before giving them another
18:47:28  <Alberth> :D
18:47:40  <Alberth> try 10 candies :p
18:47:58  <Wolf01> 10 candies to 25 children could be a challenge
18:48:19  <Alberth> not for speed, most likely :p
18:48:32  <Wolf01> Maybe I should just put one against the other in a battle royale and give all of them to the survivor
18:49:27  <Wolf01> And I think that is what happened with the industries, one won
18:52:52  <andythenorth> station names…again
18:53:04  <andythenorth> that one is just a yes/no even for the principle
18:54:36  <Alberth> does an industry always have a station name?
18:54:50  <Alberth> in particular, does default set have that?
18:55:29  <Alberth> likely you can get away with defining an industry without a station name
18:56:22  <Alberth> if so, something has to produce station names
18:57:10  <Alberth> which would be "player names", as these are the only available names
18:57:53  <Alberth> if stations must always provide a name, then it's a matterof changing the code into assigning
18:58:22  <Wolf01> Make it an API
18:58:30  <Wolf01> So it can be defined via grf
18:58:44  <Wolf01> andythenorth would be happy
18:58:48  <Alberth> which would at least be feasible in the latter case
18:59:15  <Alberth> you can have station names in newgrf, I am asking if it's obligatory
18:59:33  <Alberth> ie is there always a name specific for an indsutry?
19:00:30  <Alberth> if not, the entire idea isn't even feasible currently
19:01:26  <Wolf01> With specific name you mean like "Fartbottom Coal mine"?
19:02:06  <andythenorth> it goes to “town coal mine #3” or something
19:02:08  * andythenorth tests
19:02:15  <Wolf01> Industries for sure have a city bound
19:03:30  <Wolf01> andythenorth: NoStationNames spec
19:05:00  <andythenorth> goes as far as “Lower [town name]” then “[town name] Station #16"
19:05:44  <andythenorth> changing original gameplay is against our objectives?
19:05:48  <andythenorth> so 6017 can be closed
19:06:00  <andythenorth> also, players will complain
19:06:16  <Wolf01> andythenorth: bah
19:06:19  <andythenorth> that doesn’t mean much, but in this case they will ask why station names for industries are now bugged
19:06:25  <andythenorth> because they all go to numbers
19:07:05  <andythenorth> unless we just patch oil rigs
19:07:23  <andythenorth> but that will likely also get applied to newgrf industries using the station tile
19:08:57  * andythenorth closes it
19:12:47  <V453000> well shit
19:12:53  <V453000> I was trying to use lists as templates :D
19:12:56  <V453000> dayum
19:13:17  <andythenorth> deepcopy
19:13:27  * andythenorth probably misunderstood
19:14:08  <andythenorth> LordAro: want to add your gist to this? o_O
19:14:14  <Alberth> deepcopy is the brute-force approach :p
19:14:47  <V453000> was doing dumb shit
19:15:01  <V453000> need to convert it to functions or something I guess
19:15:38  <andythenorth> openttdcoop lost it’s cert?
19:15:43  * andythenorth getting warnings
19:16:12  <V453000> :d wot
19:16:34  <andythenorth> SSL seems to be broken
19:16:52  <andythenorth> only according to Google
19:17:13  <andythenorth> anyway, V453000 all those [n+1, n+1, n+1] offsets
19:17:24  <andythenorth> is it always n+1, n+2 etc?
19:17:34  <andythenorth> looks like you don’t need to write that out
19:17:41  <V453000> usually, sometimes it's hardcoded number
19:17:49  <V453000> there's a weird pattern
19:17:58  <andythenorth> probably fine written out then
19:18:00  <andythenorth> easier
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19:18:30  <V453000> it's n, n+1, n+2 for the first index, but for example n+7, n+6, n+5 for the last index
19:18:39  <V453000> which means they go against each other and eventually they meet somehow
19:18:41  <V453000> which I edit manually
19:18:46  <V453000> which is why it's all written out yeah
19:18:58  <andythenorth> which lucky patch shall I test first? :P
19:19:10  <andythenorth> they are mostly unappealing eh?
19:19:22  <andythenorth> hth can we make testing patches more fun? o_O
19:19:37  <andythenorth> it’s totally like eating unwanted vegetables right now
19:20:17  <andythenorth> err
19:20:30  <andythenorth> so it’s not like I asked people to send me this work
19:20:49  <andythenorth> same goes for devs eh?
19:24:22  <_dp_> I think it's only worth testing patches that are somewhat reviewed
19:24:59  <_dp_> or where testing also kind of reviewing, like UI patches
19:25:17  <Wolf01> ^
19:25:54  <andythenorth> dunno
19:26:05  <andythenorth> there’s still 75 to review in that case
19:26:54  <V453000> oh wtf
19:27:03  <V453000> loading BRIX with NUTS could cause desyncs
19:27:09  <V453000> BRIX disables itself
19:27:09  <V453000> wot
19:27:43  <V453000> OH
19:27:45  <frosch123> when static and non-static grfs try to mess with each other, the static one is dropped
19:27:52  <andythenorth> @seen supercheese
19:27:52  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supercheese was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 46 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Supercheese> and that's good enough for me
19:27:57  <V453000> I guess that's because NUTS is trying to check for signals
19:28:02  <V453000> jeez :D
19:28:57  <V453000> I guess that only happens for multiplayer, right?
19:29:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no
19:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> happens always
19:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> need to load BRIX non-static, or drop the check from NUTS
19:29:46  <V453000> why don't I get the error in single player then ._.
19:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then i don't know
19:30:25  <andythenorth> closed
19:30:34  <V453000> well if it's desync related protection I would understand it only applying to MP
19:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the thing is, the NUTS check cannot have different result depending on whether static BRIX is loaded or not, so the only valid solution is to always not load BRIX
19:31:23  <V453000> yes, or load it normally without static
19:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that must be done by the server owner
19:33:26  <V453000> of course
19:36:15  <frosch123> what should i do with all the fish that i accidentially get from destruction robots?
19:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> give it to the dolphins?
19:37:08  <frosch123> that achievement has no hints how to get it
19:37:20  <frosch123> it's an easter dophin or something
19:37:27  <V453000> put fish into rocket, launch it
19:37:30  <V453000> gg
19:37:39  <Wolf01> SPOLER
19:37:42  <Wolf01> SPOILER
19:37:44  <Wolf01> SHIT
19:37:45  <frosch123> he, i tried that
19:37:47  <frosch123> did not work
19:38:01  <Wolf01> Did you try to put them on the water again?
19:38:35  <frosch123> i actually got excited when i thought about the rocket
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19:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i just randomly said that, didn't know there was an achievement :p
19:38:46  <frosch123> and now you tell me that it should actually work? :o
19:39:21  <Wolf01> Try to put 42 fishes on the rocket
19:40:11  <frosch123> hmm, i only launched one
19:40:17  <frosch123> what is the stack size for fish?
19:43:25  <peter1138> 16?
19:44:45  <andythenorth> SPACE as hotkey? o_O
19:45:14  <_dp_> YES PLIZ
19:45:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like smarter hotkeys
19:45:21  <_dp_> and tab :)
19:45:29  <frosch123> like rotate selected object
19:45:48  <andythenorth> presumably we can’t just give every UI control a UUID?
19:45:59  <andythenorth> and then let players map keys to UUIDs?
19:46:40  * andythenorth looks how it works
19:46:48  <_dp_> andythenorth, an entry in hotkeys.cfg is a nice UUID ;)
19:46:50  <andythenorth> yes
19:47:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: not everything has a gui button
19:47:20  <frosch123> like all those weird cycle signal type
19:47:34  <frosch123> or toggle depot orientation
19:48:08  <_dp_> rotate hotkey would be very nice, it's the one probably missing the most right now
19:48:41  <andythenorth> ach
19:49:06  <_dp_> or mb more like cycle hotkey indeed, that cycles signals too
19:49:47  <andythenorth>
19:50:03  <andythenorth> “First join us on irc, and discuss what you are trying to achieve"
19:50:20  *** orudge` has quit IRC
19:50:27  <andythenorth> “Patches with no prior discussion are rarely accepted from contributors who aren’t known to us"
19:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i always want to reply to suggestion threads like "how did nobody ever think of that before?" and each word is a link to a previous suggestion about the exact same thing. but then i can't be bothered to look for all those threads
19:51:09  <andythenorth> “It can be disheartening to attach a patch to the tracker and then nobody even comments.  To avoid this, conversation in advance is best"
19:51:23  *** orudge` has joined #openttd
19:51:23  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
19:51:27  <andythenorth> “Discussing in irc is still no guarantee, and some days the channel is quiet."
19:51:36  <andythenorth> “But eh, it’s just more fun this way.”
19:52:49  <andythenorth> “FS ticket comments are a poor way to have a conversation, and can seem very formal, cold, dismissive or rude when not intended to be any of those"
19:53:25  <andythenorth> “Often it turns out that individual patches aren’t much use in isolation, or are fixing part of a bigger issue.”
19:53:41  <andythenorth> “Only when the bigger issue is tackled is it worth the effort to change OpenTTD”
19:53:44  <andythenorth> or something
19:53:52  <_dp_> and bundled together they are too big to review :p
19:55:38  <supermop_home> tram segment sprites, assuming each part can have and either end: a cab, a 'blind' end with no cab, or a gangway to next vehicle
19:57:00  <andythenorth> “Sometimes patches get no comments simply because NOBODY LIKES YOUR IDEA, but nobody wants to say so in case it looks rude ;)”
19:57:06  <supermop_home> not all combinations are likely to occur, so I don't need nomeclature that covers everything
19:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: so what was the question?
19:57:58  <andythenorth> supermop_: got a mockup?
19:58:46  <frosch123> btw. i am interested in learning xslt
19:58:50  <supermop_home> but something like " A is a part with 2 cabs. B is a part with one cab and one gangway. C is a part with one cab and one blind end. D is a part with two gangways. E is a part with two blind ends. F is a part with one gangway and one blind end. etc
19:59:00  <supermop_home> is not very helpful or intuitive
19:59:12  <frosch123> so if you can find a use case to use xslt in ottd / some patch... :p
19:59:57  <supermop_home> other way is something like A= cab, b= gangway etc, and call each one "part_X_AB" etc
20:00:17  <supermop_home> but it seems clunky to use so many digits
20:00:18  * _dp_ tried to understand xslt few times but failed
20:00:31  <Alberth> very silly language
20:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: parts with gangway are articulated front/middle/end, parts without gangway are front/end
20:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so cab+gangway = articulated front, gangway+gangway = articulated middle, gangway+blind = articulated end
20:01:13  <supermop_home> Eddi|zuHause some older tram might have articulated parts with no gangway
20:01:21  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am trying desperately to get xslt out of my life
20:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> cab+blind = front, blind+blind = end
20:01:43  <andythenorth> eh the website is django?
20:01:58  * andythenorth wonders if it’s running a wsgi stack
20:02:15  <supermop_home> question is mostly, how to give these sprites short but meaningful systematic names
20:02:21  <andythenorth> actually doesn’t matter, Diazo works outside WSGI
20:02:22  <andythenorth>
20:02:44  <andythenorth> if you want to learn xslt, we can reskin the website without touching django
20:03:23  <andythenorth> you will then learn why that is a terrible idea, unless you have literally no control over the website code (happens when you’re selling consulting services sometimes)
20:03:49  <supermop_home> ooops forgot wheels
20:04:27  <_dp_> andythenorth, omg, instead of fixing the website let's write another website that will fix our website?
20:04:34  <andythenorth> a theming layer
20:04:41  <andythenorth> there are valid use cases
20:04:46  <andythenorth> they’re not common
20:04:47  <frosch123> hmm, this time the fish worked
20:04:56  <frosch123> i wonder what i misclicked last time
20:05:36  <andythenorth> <replace fish=“click” content=“click” />
20:05:56  <andythenorth> so eh, 75 patches to review
20:05:57  <frosch123> i also do not find a way to put them back into the water
20:06:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, spamming identical websites?
20:06:07  <frosch123> blue prints to not capture fish population
20:06:18  <frosch123> and i cannot put them manually either
20:06:35  <andythenorth> of those 75, only 2 interest me
20:06:43  <andythenorth> and 1 just fixes a type in code :P
20:06:48  <andythenorth> typo *
20:06:49  <andythenorth> :P
20:06:49  <frosch123> maybe i can put them into the reactor
20:07:17  <andythenorth> there are maybe 5 more patches that are like “I should look at this to be a good person"
20:07:21  <andythenorth> but eh, it’s boring isn’t it/
20:07:23  * _dp_ not sure if frosch is talking about fish or patches
20:07:26  <andythenorth> fish
20:07:32  <andythenorth> patches are my problem today
20:07:38  <andythenorth> frosch123 is fishing
20:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you think being a good person is boring?
20:07:46  <andythenorth> errr…yes
20:07:52  <andythenorth> when pushed to answer
20:08:07  <V453000> :D foundation sprite 1666 is broken
20:08:09  <V453000> how ironic
20:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you know, the number 666 being evil has nothing to do with it being a 6 repeated 3 times
20:09:08  <Eddi|zuHause> because back when that story was written, the "arabic numbers" weren't invented yet
20:09:22  <andythenorth> it’s just Nero isn’t it?
20:09:26  <andythenorth> allegedly?
20:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, allegedly, probably
20:09:58  <andythenorth> unless that’s false flag :P
20:10:03  <andythenorth> wheels in wheels in wheels
20:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but still, back then the number 666 would be written with greek letters
20:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or hebrew letters
20:10:33  <andythenorth> so patches via FS - mostly dead then? o_O
20:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and they were different letters for 6, 60 and 600
20:11:07  <frosch123> V453000: so 1666 contains every roman number exactly once, and sorted? MDCLXVI
20:11:27  <V453000> GG
20:11:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
20:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that misses the double-M and double-D
20:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> for 5000 and 10000
20:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> other way round
20:11:57  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if i accept those, it's infinite
20:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
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20:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, you can make a chain 16/166/1666/... or 6/16/66/166/...
20:14:30  <frosch123> the reactor does not accept fish
20:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: try mr fusion from the far future of 2017?
20:16:43  <V453000> frosch123: yet
20:22:07  <V453000> I fixed a BRIX bug \o/
20:22:10  <V453000> was productive :D
20:22:39  <andythenorth> congrats
20:22:47  <andythenorth> I avoided finishing FIRS
20:22:53  <andythenorth> or even thinking about newgrf
20:23:06  * andythenorth has had holiday in Flyspray
20:23:15  <V453000> by making sure finishing of other people ideas was avoided? :D
20:23:17  <V453000> :D:D:D
20:23:25  <V453000> such win iz
20:23:29  <andythenorth> V453000: you should get ‘close ticket’ rights :)
20:23:39  <andythenorth> would be spree for you
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20:24:05  <V453000> would iz
20:24:09  <V453000> haz time to read ticket not
20:24:22  * andythenorth either
20:24:28  <V453000> my cat language is getting less readable by the minute
20:24:39  <andythenorth> total sense makes to me
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20:24:53  <V453000> k rawr
20:26:04  <andythenorth> is nice to have break from newgrf
20:26:18  <andythenorth> probly time haz FIRS 3 done
20:26:19  <V453000> I guess :)
20:26:39  <V453000> I'm just going through BRIX and wondering what do I REALLY want to do for next version
20:26:52  <V453000> is a bunch of smaller fixes which isn't particularly fun to do :D but eh
20:26:56  <V453000> might also rework all trees
20:27:48  <V453000> yeah I should do  that first
20:28:01  <V453000> need a break from the python thing for today
20:28:10  <andythenorth> trees not aweome awlready?
20:28:15  <V453000> rewriting that index definition needs to be left for tomorrow
20:28:18  <V453000> trees are super fucked
20:28:23  <V453000> some of them are good
20:28:32  <V453000> but most of them are not and are totally different style from good ones
20:28:46  <V453000> + no trees for arctic, tropic or toyland, and some missing for temperate
20:30:49  <V453000> but yeah otoh 344 models or how many
20:30:52  <V453000> ._.
20:32:00  <andythenorth> which is good? o_O
20:33:45  <V453000> that's kind of insane
20:34:23  <andythenorth> do all same tree? o_O
20:34:26  <andythenorth> 1 model
20:35:18  <V453000> I'd like to avoid that
20:35:39  <V453000> might just do something simplistic
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20:36:32  * andythenorth will await results
20:36:38  <andythenorth> now such sleep
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20:41:53  <Wolf01> Such thunderstorm
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21:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> now, is the result of "such sleep" actually "find sleep"? [sorry, joke works better if you know german]
21:53:11  <supermop> ha
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21:55:24  <Wolf01> Eh, ISP got nuked by blackout
21:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you're in serious need of a new ISP
21:56:02  <Wolf01> Yes
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23:13:15  <Shoshonite> Does anyone know where the Oil Refinery sprites are hidden from OpenGFX I can't even find a reference to them in the Sauce
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23:44:39  <Sylf> You'll need to look in the source.  No sauce or salsa or soup will contain those sprites.
23:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> use the sauce
23:52:54  <Sylf>   A part of that looks like oil refinery
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