Log for #openttd on 21st August 2017:
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00:16:11  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:20:32  <andythenorth> o/
07:32:41  <LordAro> /o
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07:47:14  <andythenorth> LordAro: did you have a patch for that? o_O
07:48:10  <LordAro> not a complete one
07:48:39  <LordAro> although it would just be a case of changing the if statement as sirkoz did
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07:53:40  <Wolf01> o/
07:56:36  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
07:57:06  <andythenorth> what are ‘Cities’ in OpenTTD?
07:57:14  * andythenorth should probably look in wiki eh
07:57:43  <andythenorth>
07:58:43  <andythenorth> that shouldn’t exist :P
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08:01:09  <andythenorth>
08:01:52  <Wolf01> So 6601 and 6602 are actually related? We should specify that with the "related tasks" feature instead of comments
08:02:01  <andythenorth> I couldn’t see it
08:02:22  <Wolf01> It's the next tab near comments
08:02:31  <andythenorth> ha
08:02:33  <andythenorth> ye
08:02:37  <andythenorth> ok that’s useful
08:02:45  <andythenorth> looks disabled :P
08:02:48  <andythenorth> we need a new theme
08:03:09  <Wolf01> Yes, FS1.0 has a nicer UI
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08:14:30  <andythenorth> tried another
08:15:14  <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you see last line of yesterday's log? :P
08:19:32  <andythenorth> lego such?
08:19:38  <Wolf01> Yep
08:19:41  <Wolf01> Speed build contest, 4th place because we didn't cheat :P
08:19:49  <andythenorth> no cheating!
08:19:51  * andythenorth bbl
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09:09:57  <_dp_> o/
09:10:14  <_dp_> city proportion setting in somewhat useful actually
09:10:21  <_dp_> unlike many other settings :p
09:11:44  <_dp_> or, tbh I should say that's one of not so many settings that actually varies across our servers :)
09:12:31  <_dp_> coz some stuff like smooth economy obviously doesn't :p
09:13:08  <andythenorth> yeah it’s probably legit
09:13:16  * andythenorth thinks it should be in script layer, but eh
09:14:06  <V453000> hy humenz
09:14:12  <andythenorth> also V453000
09:14:39  <_dp_> imo none of the stuff that configures something that's embedded in game should be in any kind of layer
09:14:52  <_dp_> mb is some advanced config but not netwgrfs, gs, etc
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09:15:27  <_dp_> basecosts, industry chances, towngen settings, etc., etc., etc.
09:15:47  <_dp_> industry chances for standard industry set ofc
09:15:50  <V453000> andythenorth: ever used the argparser? For some reason my bool parameters work weirdly - if the default is True, then it is always true and if I use parameter it won't change that ... if the default is False, and I use for example - x True, it works correctly. But when I use -x False, it will also make it True, like if the bool is just checking if there's anything in the parameter. Any idea wtf? :D
09:16:04  <V453000>
09:16:10  <V453000> also I am searching for a name for the script
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09:16:22  <V453000> RGB DESTROYER or RGB DOZER are candidates
09:17:26  <_dp_> V453000, iirc it's controlled by action='store_true/false'
09:18:26  <andythenorth> V453000: seems I just use sys.argv
09:18:27  <andythenorth>
09:18:36  <andythenorth> which is a bit limited and flakey IMO
09:18:53  <V453000> right
09:19:05  <V453000> _dp_: need to research something about that, feels like I read something similar earlier
09:19:23  <_dp_> V453000, try action='store_true' instead of type=bool
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09:19:49  <_dp_> and required ofc makes no sense
09:20:52  <_dp_> V453000, though it works without argument, like if there is -x it's true, if no it's false
09:21:07  <V453000> that's alright :) trying
09:23:06  * _dp_ was fixing some argparse for my work half an hour ago
09:25:58  <V453000> seems to work, thank you :)
09:26:12  <V453000> now I need to figure out if I actually want the "defaults" to be false XD
09:29:29  <andythenorth> _dp_: if ‘city’ wasn’t a flag in game, but controlled by town growth script, that would be…better :D
09:29:37  * andythenorth proposes
09:30:56  <_dp_> andythenorth, no, coz instead of changing it in config to configure server you'll have to write a script
09:31:13  <andythenorth> someone else will do that for you….right? o_O
09:31:21  <andythenorth> "let a thousand flower bloom”
09:31:59  <_dp_> andythenorth, no one usually does :p
09:32:05  <andythenorth> sad times :(
09:32:16  <andythenorth> I am biased
09:32:30  <andythenorth> I live in a world where industry and cargos are totally under my control
09:32:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, but anyway, imo it's a very bad idea to move settings for core logic to scripts
09:32:51  <andythenorth> I was thinking of the logic too
09:33:03  <andythenorth> why does the game need to distinguish town/city?
09:33:10  <_dp_> andythenorth, I would understand if script controlled the whole town placement, then, yes, it should have it's own settings
09:33:11  <andythenorth> why not move growth out of core completely? o_O
09:33:26  <_dp_> andythenorth, but for core game town generator settings should be also in core game
09:33:26  <andythenorth> completely moddable, within limits of API
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09:33:45  <andythenorth> pragmatically you’re probably right
09:33:47  <_dp_> andythenorth, cities grow twice as fast
09:34:00  <andythenorth> on a JFDI model, yeah, it’s better to have a setting
09:34:36  <_dp_> andythenorth, like cb servers usually only allow players to claim towns and have cities neutral
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09:35:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, have a nice side-effect that you can easily tell one from other
09:35:43  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, that may be patch actually, don't remember xD
09:40:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, btw if you move everything out of core then default game will be extremely dull
09:40:46  <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need some town geration script enabled by default
09:40:47  <andythenorth> depends what it ships with
09:40:58  <andythenorth> it will also be _really_ easy to mod, or use for patchpacks
09:41:05  <andythenorth> reduced combinatorial shit
09:41:10  <andythenorth> except…when the mods conflict :P
09:41:24  <V453000> I guess the parameter defaults then make no sense for the ones which do the store_true or store_false, right?
09:41:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: closed another
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09:41:43  <andythenorth> game has _4_ kinds of Oil Wells industry
09:41:46  <andythenorth> kind of a clue :)
09:41:46  <_dp_> V453000, yep
09:41:56  * andythenorth also tried all the industry grfs in one game before :P
09:42:18  <V453000> cool :>
09:42:32  <V453000> changes applied, tyvm
09:42:35  <V453000> seems to work
09:42:49  <_dp_> yw
09:44:59  <Wolf01> :)
09:45:05  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if logic ships with game and is configurable from config it makes no difference how is it implemented, in script or in core
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09:45:21  <andythenorth> it does to those writing mods :)
09:45:24  <andythenorth> but yes
09:45:30  <andythenorth> potato / potato
09:45:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's just that atm there aren't many mods shipped with the game ;)
09:45:56  <andythenorth> no
09:46:02  <andythenorth> well there’s openttd.grf :P
09:46:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's why I didn't say "no mods" :)
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09:48:48  <_dp_> would be nice to have at least basecost in bundle btw
09:49:33  <_dp_> and manual industries, even though it's technically a custom industry set
09:49:48  <_dp_> newgrf configuration is a mess though
09:50:00  <_dp_> as is GS
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09:51:57  <_dp_>
09:52:03  <andythenorth> _dp_: for a short time, there were some nice MP goal games played, mostly with me and core devs
09:52:23  <andythenorth> when GS like NCG and Silicon Valley came out
09:52:36  <andythenorth> nice 1 or 2 hour games in an evening
09:52:42  <andythenorth> problem was
09:52:52  <andythenorth> takes 45 mins - 1 hour to configure the fricking game :P
09:53:07  <andythenorth> and 1 wrong setting borks the goal
09:53:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, takes forever to properly configure a server
09:54:29  <_dp_> andythenorth, have same issue with events too, little testing -> big chance something will go wrong
09:55:26  <andythenorth> playing MP goals is probably most fun I’ve had playing OpenTTD
09:55:34  <andythenorth> caused me to see new playing styles too
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10:17:21  <_dp_> "Every extension proposal should be required to be accompanied by a kidney. People would submit only serious proposals, and nobody would submit more than two."
10:17:32  <_dp_> looks like nice solution to fs problem :p
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10:18:08  <_dp_> but then again, it was said by member of c++ standartization committee in early 90s...
10:18:58  <SpComb> that sounds like an appropriate approach for adding new things to C++
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10:35:26  <Wolf01> really
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11:36:51  <andythenorth> closed one, with a win
11:37:57  <Wolf01> Good
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11:39:31  <andythenorth> this needs a review :)
11:44:49  <Wolf01> Yes
11:45:01  <andythenorth> makes groups suck less
11:46:25  <LordAro> but does it make them great again?
11:55:08  <V453000> that is actually really missing fo the groups
11:55:19  <V453000> to the point where it's even rather hard that it's actually a subgroup I feel
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12:10:04  <andythenorth> V453000: can haz words?
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12:11:03  <andythenorth> +/-1 to foldable groups?
12:11:47  <V453000> I would definitely say +1 if it's not a giant pain in the ass to code. To me it's what makes the feature of sub-groups explained and complete. Currently it's nice but missing this.
12:11:50  <V453000> my 2c
12:13:38  <andythenorth> yeah, currently is crippled
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12:23:47  <_dp_> can we switch to toml for config file?
12:23:59  <Wolf01> I think at least 75% of my development time is to try to fix linker errors
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12:35:20  <andythenorth> is toml what mercurial uses?
12:35:25  <andythenorth> looks familiar
12:36:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, dunno, but rust uses it for sure
12:36:16  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's also quite ini-like
12:37:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so can you explain the differences in 3 sentences?
12:38:10  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, can in one
12:38:15  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more expressive
12:38:35  <Wolf01> we need this
12:38:48  <Wolf01> But as a bus
12:38:53  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, things like GS configuration could be made into a tables instead of those hacky string-map-things
12:39:30  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also all nested tables could be separated like yapf* or npf* but that no big issue
12:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: grf config is kind of a mess, currently
12:40:12  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also it has proper lists instead of again string-like-comma-separated hacks
12:41:13  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, grf config is a huge mess coz it's a list not even map/dictionary/table, idk if there are parameter names in newgrfs but if so they could be easily expressed with toml tables
12:41:27  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and if not then, again, at least there are proper lists
12:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: main problem with grfs is that they could be identified through filename, grf-id or grf-id+md5
12:44:31  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, config format makes no difference to that
12:46:15  <Wolf01> I need some help for the correct order of headers, I'm moving the SwitchToMode to another file and no matter if I put some functions declarations it uses in the openttd.h, as extern or what, I always get unresolved external
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12:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: external symbols are never in header files, only references to symbols. there must be one .cpp file which contains the actual symbol
12:49:25  <Wolf01> Yes, they are on openttd.cpp as static functions, but if I move them too I could easily leave all into openttd.cpp because it would mean to move everything
12:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you're making a new .cpp file, make sure you add it to source.list and regenerate the project files
12:50:11  <Wolf01> Already done it
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12:51:13  <Eddi|zuHause> did you close and reopen the project?
12:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: linker errors are almost definitely unrelated to .h order
12:52:10  <Wolf01> I think is because they are static
12:52:25  <Wolf01> And I fell on the same pit trap
12:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, yes, "static" means "don't create a linker symbol"
12:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want the linker to find it, you must remove static
12:55:19  <__ln__> greetings from the land widely considered a part of germany
12:55:25  <__ln__> bavaria
12:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> fake news!
12:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you're widely exaggerating the value of "widely"
12:56:44  <__ln__> widely abroad
12:58:58  <Wolf01> Ok, removing static worked
13:16:19  <Wolf01> Now I need to ponder the best way of doing the GameState object
13:16:45  <Wolf01> Seem that the singleton way + global variable was not well accepted
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13:27:50  <supermop_> so trams  work
13:28:14  <supermop_> but then i stayed up late last night making a ton of switches for trolley poles and pantographs
13:29:52  <supermop_> sigh
13:30:35  <supermop_> now i want to add more switches to choose between trolley poles and old fashioned pantographs and bow collectors
13:31:35  <Wolf01> yeah, every day is always better
13:31:52  <Wolf01> supermop_: pics or didn't happen
13:31:58  <supermop_> melbourne went straight from poles to modern pantographs in the 80s
13:32:27  <supermop_> but in eastern europe pictures suggest they had pantographs from the 20s or so
13:33:30  <supermop_> Wolf01: let me put grf onto my work computer
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13:41:06  <andythenorth> all this OpenTTD admin eh
13:41:12  * andythenorth ducking FIRS 3 sprites
13:41:24  <supermop_> now im tempted to draw more pantos
13:43:45  <Wolf01> Just called my ISP, which for sure will state that it's a problem of mine and I must pay for fix
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14:01:24  <Alberth> o/
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14:02:51  <supermop_> yo Alberth
14:02:53  <crem> \o
14:03:09  <supermop_> what to call the little heqs style trains?
14:03:36  <supermop_> they aren't exactly a tram
14:04:28  <supermop_> calling them a minimum  gauge train suggests that the trams are also like 600mm or 1'
14:04:54  <supermop_> 'industrial train' just sounds like any freight train
14:05:22  <Alberth> to me that's a industry-owned train driving around at its site
14:05:39  <supermop_> yeah thats like part of the industry
14:05:50  <supermop_> not a player built vehicle
14:06:05  <Alberth> small freight train?
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14:09:19  <Alberth> just give it a nice name of itself, rather than an indication on what kind of train it is
14:11:48  <supermop_> its for the parameter string
14:16:30  <Wolf01> o/ Alberth
14:16:54  <andythenorth> micro trains!
14:17:02  <andythenorth> supermop_: I call them industrial railways
14:17:06  <andythenorth> but that might be a UK thing
14:17:20  <andythenorth> I was going to add them to Road Hog, once we decide if NRT is dead or not
14:22:57  <supermop_> ugh
14:23:16  <supermop_> well i'll keep making things for nrt
14:23:26  <andythenorth> if I implement them I’m going to ignore the gauge
14:23:30  <andythenorth> it’s not relevant
14:23:36  <andythenorth> the main thing is...
14:23:42  <andythenorth> well I’ll post a screenshot actually
14:23:45  <supermop_> they whole sidewalks etc thing is nice to have, not critical for nrt to work
14:25:16  <andythenorth> hmm
14:25:19  <andythenorth> HEQS-RS
14:25:36  <andythenorth> HEQS Renewal Set :P
14:25:39  <andythenorth> hexers
14:25:59  <andythenorth>
14:26:11  <andythenorth> that is kind of the original image for HEQS trams, Dan sent it to me years ago
14:26:15  <andythenorth> was fake then
14:26:39  <andythenorth> the main thing is that they are long mini-micro trains, with all wagons looking same
14:26:46  <andythenorth> so they are like little worms going around
14:27:36  <FLHerne> What we Really Need are proper little tracks that can be built on half a tile each
14:27:43  <FLHerne> Complete with signalling and things
14:27:54  <FLHerne> Well, quarter-tiles
14:28:13  <Wolf01> ISP called back "here all works fine"
14:28:42  <supermop_> FLHerne: well even full size rails are narrower than a two-lane street with sidewalks
14:28:58  <andythenorth> What We Really Need
14:29:02  <andythenorth> FLHerne: zoome out :P
14:29:23  <supermop_> its the old, "make everything but tracks bigger"
14:29:35  <supermop_> which would probably be fine
14:29:44  <supermop_> have to build roads one lane at a time
14:29:54  <andythenorth> I hate all that shit :P
14:30:09  <andythenorth> hate is way too strong a word
14:30:17  <supermop_> anyone look at this:
14:30:17  <andythenorth> it strongly disinterests me :P
14:30:48  <supermop_> andythenorth: i wouldn't hate it, its just out of scope
14:31:22  <FLHerne> Scale in OTTD is annoying
14:31:24  <supermop_> 'make a new, different game' not usually in the scope of 'make the first game'
14:31:40  <supermop_> sometimes i guess it is though
14:31:42  <FLHerne> If I let my cities grow to a sensible scale relative to the railways
14:31:44  <andythenorth> a few of juanjo’s patches would need to get to trunk-ready before anything like airports would get looked at
14:31:45  <supermop_> hence RCT
14:31:56  <FLHerne> So they can have a proper suburban network and things
14:31:56  <andythenorth> also airports is a horribly proven source of drama and fail
14:32:10  <FLHerne> They take up all the map space and everything looks too crowded
14:32:12  <supermop_> andythenorth: not saying it should go in trunk, but it was fun to watch
14:32:26  <supermop_> much like whoever's shunting patch years ago
14:33:10  <supermop_> at scale ORD is probably bigger than a 64x64 map
14:36:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: fancy reviewing a UI patch? o_O
14:37:00  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm happy to go through juanjo's stuff and work out what needs doing
14:37:18  <andythenorth> he has found some…odd stuff…to fix :)
14:37:32  <andythenorth> seems quite persistent, not always obvious what the motivation is :)
14:37:45  <supermop_> what's remaining dealbreaker on NRT?
14:37:57  <supermop_> should i keep working on this set?
14:38:06  <andythenorth> supermop_: waiting for peter1138 to declare us insane and just commit what’s done?
14:38:16  <andythenorth> we’re stuck with the last 20%
14:38:37  <andythenorth> me and frosch have talked ourselves out onto a ledge about ground types
14:38:49  <andythenorth> $somebody made loads of cobbled roads and stuff
14:38:58  <andythenorth> which are all identical apart from texture
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14:39:27  <supermop_> i mean myself or andrew350 can make more sprites
14:39:56  <supermop_> i missed the intention behind groundtypes
14:40:08  <supermop_> is it purely for eyecandy?
14:40:35  <supermop_> surely the easiest way would be to just move the sidewalks to the roadtype
14:40:54  <supermop_> as is, road beats tram on a tile, which might not be perfect but works
14:41:03  <andythenorth> it’s predicated on not consuming labels if all your changing is cobble/brick/asphalt/stone/wood
14:41:07  <andythenorth> you’re *
14:41:19  <andythenorth> it’s a waste of labels, could be done differently
14:41:25  <andythenorth> but that means new spec, new UI
14:41:41  <supermop_> i can drive very different speeds on those surfaces
14:41:54  <supermop_> why do they need to be the same label?
14:42:07  <andythenorth> do you actually set different properties for them?
14:42:31  <andythenorth> if so, it might be we’re staring down a dead end with groundtypes
14:42:43  <supermop_> in unspooled dirt is slower that gravel, which is slower than stone, which is slower than asphalt
14:42:57  <andythenorth> hmm
14:43:03  <andythenorth> dunno if frosch and I realised that
14:43:07  <supermop_> dirt is cheapest, followed by gravel, followed by asphalt, followed by stone
14:43:29  <supermop_> infrastructure cost is more or less same order
14:43:31  <Wolf01> andythenorth: just put speed limit in groundtype
14:44:04  <andythenorth> Wolf01: at some point that makes groundtype a roadtype :P
14:44:06  <Wolf01> Or define a switch on roadtype with groundtype
14:44:11  <andythenorth> then we’ve resolved it back to ‘same as now'
14:44:32  <andythenorth> supermop_: what about Docklands?
14:44:34  <Alberth> too overpowered wrt money printing
14:44:36  <supermop_> i mean currently i can lay a 140kmh tram track over a 40 kmh dirt road, and that is weird
14:44:44  <supermop_> but not necessarily wrong
14:44:55  <Alberth> hmm, you spoke much more :)
14:45:24  <supermop_> andythenorth: docklands has all same costs and speeds for the moment
14:45:41  <supermop_> because i hadn't bothered to think of different ones
14:45:58  <andythenorth> I think it was Docklands that spawned groundtypes idea
14:46:16  <supermop_> docklands is an eycandy hack though
14:46:38  <supermop_> i don't know that it has any gameplay meaning
14:47:38  <supermop_> yes it uses too many lables,
14:48:00  <supermop_> maybe there is a way around that, but not sure id base all of NRT around one grf
14:52:18  <supermop_> Alberth: what is overpowered?
14:53:13  <supermop_> anyway NRT lets us have pretty sprites for roads and trams, which i feel is about 80% functional now
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14:53:47  <supermop_> and gameplay differentiation which i think is about 90%
14:54:37  <supermop_> for pretty sprites, we miss some more control over certain sprites by roadtype, like sidewalks, furniture, and foundations
14:55:19  <supermop_> for gameplay, we miss a more graceful means of upgrading roads, and the means for towns to build more than one type
14:55:45  <Alberth> airports are overpowered, topic 25 minutes ago
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14:56:14  <Wolf01> supermop_: Both gameplay missing features shouldn't be a problem
14:56:22  <supermop_> correct me if i am wrong, but i feel like you could either ship it without those, or add them in some smaller incremental way without a 'ground type'
14:56:33  <Wolf01> It's just a matter to actually code them
14:56:51  <crem> Are there cablecar patches for openttd?
14:57:02  <Wolf01> Yes, NRT
14:57:22  <supermop_> even if a few means of abuse arise (upgrade a town's roads to fast highway but dont have to pay to maintain it)
14:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a ski-lift grf (non-functional object)
14:57:46  <supermop_> which you can already do by building bus stops over town roads
14:57:58  <andythenorth> Conveyor Belts!!!
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14:58:04  <andythenorth> take a lesson from F :P
14:58:14  <Alberth> clearly we need a skilift for cargo transport in the mountain
14:58:18  <andythenorth> “pipelines are against the spirit of OpentTTD"
14:58:28  <andythenorth> said devs who now all play F :P
14:58:33  <supermop_> belts, gondolas, etc can be added in NRT, but its not ideal
14:58:35  <Wolf01> Lol
14:58:38  <andythenorth> that’s actually FUD but eh :)
14:58:51  <Alberth> all devs play F? :O
14:59:12  <Wolf01> Wait, you don't play it?
14:59:26  <supermop_> Wolf01: can they be added to NRT as is?
14:59:34  <supermop_> rather than reworking NRT?
15:00:28  <Wolf01> If you want something like the existing track-pipelines but without the hassle of having signals, yes, they could be added and maybe work even better
15:00:35  <supermop_> andythenorth: i don't feel the need to have one type for bench, one type for lamps, one type for hot dog stands, on sidewalks
15:00:53  <Wolf01> You can put 2500 vehicle-pump on them and have a continuous flux
15:00:58  <andythenorth> that would be something more akin to objects supermop_
15:01:10  <supermop_> Wolf01: i meant road conversion, not pipelines
15:01:10  <andythenorth> being able to have random road greeble would be nice, similar to stations
15:01:25  <andythenorth> parked cars and crap like that
15:01:27  <supermop_> andythenorth: you can almost do that already
15:01:46  <supermop_> you can randomly have stuff on the road or catenary already
15:02:03  <Wolf01> Oh, yes, conversion could be reworked, maybe it could benefit from some new grf flags, but it's just a matter to know what could be upgraded to what
15:02:51  <supermop_> if you and one more sprite layer for sidewalks, you just randomly place street furniture
15:03:10  <supermop_> i dont need the control to choose which bench goes on what tile
15:03:17  <andythenorth> PLAYERS WILL THOUGH
15:03:18  <andythenorth> :P
15:03:31  <supermop_> then let them add 10 types
15:03:32  <andythenorth> how else can they make accurate model railways?
15:03:46  <andythenorth> need is a strong word
15:03:51  <andythenorth> meanwhile:
15:04:18  <supermop_> i guess i am saying that NRT is pretty close to meeting or exceeding goals already
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15:05:58  <supermop_> can it be shipped?
15:06:14  <Wolf01> Not yet, bugged
15:06:25  <supermop_> ship with bugs
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15:06:27  <Wolf01> And I seem too stupid to fix it
15:06:34  <supermop_> haha
15:07:30  <Wolf01> Actually I'm working on refactoring, 3 hours of work could have been saved by asking a stupid question in channel
15:07:39  <andythenorth> 441 FS issues left
15:08:05  <andythenorth> Alberth: feel free to tell me to bugger off, but in principle this is useful
15:08:07  <Wolf01> Good, at 0 we'll release OTTD2?
15:08:13  <andythenorth> pretty much
15:08:23  <andythenorth> probably at about 100 we release OTTD 2
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15:09:35  <Wolf01> New release by only closing tasks, without codechange
15:10:22  <Alberth> lots of text in that issue :)
15:10:44  <Alberth> 5887 is also nice, newgrf author makes a mess, we can clean it up?
15:12:49  <andythenorth> tbh, random building irritates me in CHIPs
15:12:52  <andythenorth> when I want specific
15:12:56  <andythenorth> and sometimes I just want random
15:13:03  <andythenorth> rock | hard place
15:13:41  <andythenorth> the station spec is such a mess that I wouldn’t touch that change
15:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and the changelog will feature all the rejected patches?
15:13:55  <andythenorth> doubt 5887 is a current goal
15:13:55  <Wolf01> Yeah :D
15:14:09  <andythenorth> Rejected: #FS [bad patch]
15:14:19  <andythenorth> shows the work done
15:15:20  <Alberth> I only use station tiles in chips, I don't care much for the random cranes :p
15:15:56  <Alberth> so likely I don't understand this decorative tile business at all
15:18:04  <FLHerne> Alberth: Even with those, it can be annoying if you get the little trucks in 1890 or whatever
15:18:12  <FLHerne> (which happens all the damn time)
15:19:16  <andythenorth> I would refactor chips if station nfo wasn’t so bad
15:19:35  <andythenorth> I would rather have deterministic building with a hotkey or toggle for ‘choose a random one'
15:19:53  <Alberth> from what quast wrote about stations, it didn't seem very complicated, imho
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15:22:02  <Alberth> FLHerne: colour of cargo isn't even consistent, trucks are minor compared to that :p
15:23:26  <andythenorth> if I bothered to read station spec, I could probably provide a suggestion :P
15:23:35  <andythenorth> but eh, there are real actual patches in the queue :D
15:23:47  * andythenorth finds making wishlists a lot easier
15:24:20  <Alberth> openttd 2.0 speculation is much simpler indeed :p
15:25:23  <andythenorth> NRT, templated consists, upgraded scenario editor, reworked landscape gen, done
15:25:27  <andythenorth> awesome 2.0
15:25:43  <andythenorth> NoooTTD
15:36:42  <planetmaker> he :)
15:37:08  <planetmaker> If so, the question would be how much backward compatibility one would want :)
15:37:53  <planetmaker> Likely such road is the netscape way, though
15:38:00  <Wolf01> Backward compatible gameplay wise or just able to load and upgrade old saves?
15:38:26  <Wolf01> Because the first one is already borked
15:38:40  <Wolf01> The second one might have some holes
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15:38:48  <planetmaker>
15:39:06  <planetmaker> Wolf01, it would probably suffice to be able to somewhat continue old games
15:39:27  <planetmaker> but... with the presence of NewGRFs that probably cannot be done either. Thus incompatible
15:39:29  <Wolf01> Then, we are already doing great, with some edge cases
15:39:38  <planetmaker> he?
15:40:04  <Wolf01> I can continue a 2007 game
15:40:15  <Wolf01> Even a 2005 one
15:40:21  <planetmaker> even older
15:40:26  <planetmaker> you can continue TTD games
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15:40:31  <Wolf01> Yes
15:41:19  <Wolf01> The only problem might happen in case of some weird configurations, maybe even trying to load a TTDP game
15:41:37  <andythenorth> no Netscape way
15:41:52  <andythenorth> I have literally sunk a company with “rewrite from scratch”
15:41:58  <andythenorth> nearly went bankrupt
15:42:13  <andythenorth> the correct method is “rebuild the plane whilst flying the plane”
15:42:35  <andythenorth> and I think we’re stuck with backwards compatibility
15:42:41  <eekee> *nod* rewriting is often stupid
15:43:13  <andythenorth> “backwards compatibility” isn’t self defining though
15:43:36  <andythenorth> (picking my pet favourite pony, don’t shoot it)
15:43:46  <andythenorth> if we, e.g. moved signals to NotSignals, with types
15:43:46  <eekee> XD
15:43:55  <andythenorth> we could delete semaphores from default game
15:44:00  <andythenorth> and migrate all saves to colour light
15:44:20  <andythenorth> it’s not broken
15:44:23  <andythenorth> it’s different :P
15:44:54  <eekee> i'm thinking "i'm sure some people would be furious" :)
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15:47:03  <andythenorth> migrate semaphores to a different signal label
15:47:12  <eekee> that makes sense
15:47:12  <andythenorth> then it can be restored by a newgrf
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15:47:30  <andythenorth> actually, in that case probably just keep the semaphores, but let me replace all signals :P
15:47:32  <andythenorth> even better
15:47:34  <andythenorth> no breakage
15:47:37  <eekee> haha! yeah
15:48:18  <eekee> i'm thoroughly enjoying firs, but i'm thinking the ports must be served by invisible giant airships. is there a patch to make them visible? ;)
15:49:55  <andythenorth> you could write one
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15:50:09  <andythenorth> probably wormholes
15:50:17  <eekee> yeah! XD
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15:50:49  <eekee> actually can grfs make new disasters? i'm thinking of the submarines which aren't really a disaster.
15:50:58  <Wolf01> andythenorth: make an alien beam dropping stuff on ports at random intervals
15:51:11  <eekee> hahaha
15:51:21  * andythenorth is busy
15:51:27  <andythenorth> removing <br /> from old html
15:51:31  <andythenorth> 212 to go
15:51:35  <eekee> sure no probs, i'm mostly joking
15:53:42  <supermop_> ive spent almost an hour shifting trolley pole around
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15:55:58  <eekee> oh aye
16:01:48  <supermop_> whats this with signals?
16:01:54  <andythenorth> delete
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16:42:44  <peter1138> what's wrong with <br /> ?
16:42:54  <peter1138> apart from privatisation
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16:45:01  <LordAro> peter1138: ayy.
16:45:08  * andythenorth shouldn’t be using it for layout
16:45:12  <andythenorth> except in poetry
16:45:45  <andythenorth>
16:46:04  <andythenorth> I’m using it to avoid people whining at me about inline styles for margin
16:46:07  *** Gja has joined #openttd
16:46:21  <andythenorth> just 112 left to replace :P
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16:56:40  <andythenorth> was PBS a mistake? o_O
16:56:51  * andythenorth can’t remember if all the pre-signals crap was actually fun or not
16:57:11  <andythenorth> seemed to involve a lot of thinking, maybe that was good
16:58:03  <Wolf01> I would allow SPAD signals too, just to see some random train crash
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17:09:16  <Wolf01> Would be useful to have specific methods to do this? _switch_mode = (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ? SM_LOAD_SCENARIO : SM_LOAD_GAME;
17:10:29  <andythenorth> bbl
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17:11:52  <Wolf01> I think not, all the checks seem different
17:12:06  <Wolf01> Or better, the result
17:14:23  <Alberth> looks state-machine-ish
17:15:02  <Alberth> not sure if it becomes any better then, coding state machines in a programming language isn't much readable
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17:19:43  <LordAro> srs, who's in control of they really need to get rid of that startcom cert
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17:32:56  <Wolf01> Quak
17:33:34  <frosch123> moo
17:34:23  <LordAro> o/
17:35:33  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm tempted to rename the GetX/SetX methods to just X() to emulate properties
17:35:35  <peter1138> "Nathanael Rebsch"
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17:35:54  <peter1138> ^ dihedral
17:36:06  <peter1138> ^ LordAro
17:36:09  *** supermop has quit IRC
17:36:50  <LordAro> uwot
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18:00:30  <frosch123> LordAro: spike is admin
18:00:46  <andythenorth> quak
18:00:53  <LordAro> i see
18:00:54  <frosch123> should we go for self-signed certificates?
18:01:06  <LordAro> letsencrypt is fine these days
18:01:09  <frosch123> make the ottd certificate authority?
18:01:13  <LordAro> i think wildcard certs are coming soon as well
18:01:24  * andythenorth uses letsencrypt
18:01:35  <andythenorth> ansible managed
18:01:53  <andythenorth> there are 1 or 2 quirks, but basically sound
18:05:37  * andythenorth stares at bug list, looking for some to invalidate :)
18:08:00  <frosch123> any butterflys or dragonflys?
18:08:31  <andythenorth> is this;a=commit;h=28800476899ce16d6eb718d666ee8db1349d7f7d different to
18:08:31  <andythenorth> ?
18:08:49  <andythenorth> default password vs. actual password?
18:08:54  * andythenorth could look in src :P
18:09:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: the client remembers the password
18:10:01  <frosch123> the server does not store it
18:10:15  <andythenorth> isn’t that….correct by design? o_O
18:10:22  <frosch123> so when people need to restart their server/reload the game, all companies have no password
18:10:27  <andythenorth> ah
18:10:48  <andythenorth> oh dear :)
18:11:06  <andythenorth> so we have to hash all the paswords? o_O
18:11:16  <frosch123> the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords
18:11:30  <andythenorth> yeah
18:11:31  <frosch123> but the truth is that savegames also do not include the ai/gs data
18:11:42  <andythenorth> because transferring the passwords over the network is also really secure? :P
18:11:46  <frosch123> so there is already differentiation between savegame for save and savegame for join
18:12:08  <andythenorth> still valid then?  Can’t just close?
18:12:09  <frosch123> the remaining reason would people who achieve their savegames on some hall of fame site :)
18:12:33  <andythenorth> even hashed, if we start sharing around passwords, pretty easy to go password mining
18:12:37  <andythenorth> if anybody could be bothered
18:13:18  <frosch123> it's the usual: if someone would actually spent some real thought on the problem, it could likely be solved
18:13:46  <andythenorth> not a bug
18:13:57  <andythenorth> I’m not trying to close all feature requests :)
18:14:45  <frosch123> oh my... yt is covered with eclipse livestreams
18:15:11  <frosch123> maybe i should stream a fake one
18:15:44  <andythenorth> :)
18:15:50  <andythenorth> need planetmaker
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18:17:13  <andythenorth> peter1138: “Or limit ships to just below 80mph?”
18:17:14  <andythenorth>
18:17:17  <andythenorth> would seem fine to me
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18:20:50  <eekee> how am i going to make my ekranoplan grf if ships are limited to just below 80mph?
18:22:12  <eekee> (only joking :)
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18:24:40  <andythenorth> ha this can die
18:25:32  <andythenorth> absolute crap
18:27:02  <peter1138> andythenorth, the patch to make ships faster worked, iirc
18:27:12  <andythenorth> want me to test it?
18:27:13  <peter1138> it was just... pointless :p
18:27:33  <andythenorth> ....yeah...
18:27:43  <andythenorth> means a docs update :P
18:27:46  <andythenorth> also
18:27:49  <peter1138> instant stopping was a problem
18:27:59  <peter1138> that's even worse for ships
18:28:02  <andythenorth> NewInertia
18:28:09  <andythenorth> NotInertia
18:28:11  <peter1138> there's plenty of patches for that, mind you
18:28:12  <andythenorth> InertiaTypes
18:30:49  <andythenorth> this patch appears to work
18:30:50  <andythenorth>
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18:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause>  <frosch123> the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords <-- that's actually easy to solve, the password data in the savegame needs to be encrypted with a (server-side) password
18:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, also hash and salt the passwords :p
18:43:02  <frosch123> that's already done
18:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that's "new" :p
18:43:49  <frosch123> and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
18:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, people who load the savegame without that server password will be able to play it, but the password data is discarded
18:44:41  <andythenorth> I wish george would join irc :P
18:44:47  <andythenorth> I dm-ed him about some of his issues
18:44:53  <frosch123> well, people who played on that game know their password, and then they know the server-side encrypted password
18:44:59  <andythenorth> <- this seems like just no
18:45:06  <frosch123> so, they have data on how it is encrypted
18:45:18  <frosch123> so, if you spend work on encryption, do it correctly imho
18:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: err, if known-plaintext is a problem, you're probably using the wrong encryption method :p
18:47:26  <andythenorth> hmm
18:47:38  <andythenorth> why _aren’t_ vehicles just built in a virtual depot?
18:47:46  <andythenorth> then we could run all the newgrf callbacks
18:47:53  <andythenorth> for the purchase menu
18:48:12  <frosch123> the idea exists for long :p
18:48:17  <andythenorth> oh wait
18:48:21  <andythenorth> it’s totally unnecessary :P
18:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: anyway, if you still want to separate it, it should be no problem to make a "filename.sav" and "filenname.secret" file
18:48:35  <andythenorth> complexity for no gain
18:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: virtual depot is needed for consist stuff
18:49:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's actually the solution to all problems with articulated vehicles and refitting
18:49:14  <andythenorth> right
18:49:28  <andythenorth> I’ll leave 6198 open then
18:49:50  <frosch123> but with ottd's "intrusive pools" it's not that easy
18:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> NoPools
18:50:45  <andythenorth> PoolScript
18:50:52  <Eddi|zuHause> replace pools with actual modern programming concepts like vectors or something
18:52:19  <frosch123> sure, if you update the compile farm
18:53:26  <andythenorth> can I close this if I fix it in FIRS? o_O
18:54:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: bug in newgrf :)
18:54:25  <frosch123> i doubt ottd will every check for ships being trapped when placing an object
18:55:05  <andythenorth> it’s probably a dubious industry layout
18:57:15  <andythenorth> NFI how I could fix that :)
18:57:37  <andythenorth> oh the Fishing Grounds station report ‘Oil Rig’ for the info tool :)
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19:02:42  <andythenorth> closed that
19:07:39  <andythenorth> ha another one
19:08:25  <milek7> >and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
19:08:30  <milek7> frosch123: why?
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19:09:15  <milek7> it even doesn't matter if it will be sent to client
19:09:29  <milek7> as long password are salted with server secret salt
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19:13:08  <Alberth> why give an option if there is no need?
19:13:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: is this something we should fix in eints?
19:14:21  <Alberth> Also, why does GroupStatistics::UpdateProfits nothing but ClearProfits   ?
19:14:39  <frosch123> it's the baseclass of something?
19:15:40  <frosch123> i can't remember
19:16:08  <Alberth> GroupStatistics::ClearProfits
19:16:20  <Alberth> it zeroes the profits at the end of the year
19:16:37  <Alberth> so it's not update at all
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19:17:16  <Alberth> andythenorth: I do something therein eints, you can specify an alternative name for a command in the tables
19:17:30  <Alberth> not sure what happens there exactly
19:18:10  <Alberth> note that 6543 doesn't say he just the translator
19:18:35  <Alberth> *used
19:20:02  <andythenorth> not sure what to do with that next
19:22:09  <frosch123> Alberth: i guess VehicleReachedProfitAge does everything
19:22:40  <frosch123> Alberth: so, update does 1. clear all, 2 readd all vehicles
19:22:48  <Alberth> andythenorth: title says web translator, so just move it to devzone?
19:23:02  <andythenorth> out of sight, out of mind :)
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19:24:25  <andythenorth> oops, eints project tells me all the eints things I haven’t done
19:25:07  <Alberth> frosch123: functionality got shifted, but the name wasn't changed thus
19:25:27  <frosch123> Alberth: no, it's all correct
19:25:52  <frosch123> it has always been like that, and it's correct imo
19:26:05  <frosch123> the comments are weird though
19:27:40  <Alberth> oh, ok, my fault
19:28:19  <frosch123> the comments are misleading :)
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19:43:53  <andythenorth> Bug in External Library?
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19:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> or compile option?
19:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, needs reproductive case
19:48:43  <andythenorth> mine has had that issue for ~years
19:48:56  <andythenorth> I bought a new mac maybe 6 years ago, and ottd got a lot slower
19:48:57  <andythenorth> winning
19:49:15  <andythenorth> yeah, Snow Leopard -> Yosemite probably
19:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds completely unrelated?
19:50:02  <andythenorth> no, Apple either changed something in Quartz or it was a change in Intel video drivers or hardware
19:50:04  <andythenorth> is my guess
19:50:17  <andythenorth> total guessing mind
19:50:23  <crem> Is there a recommended set of newgrf? For people who never played anything but vanilla openttd.
19:50:32  <andythenorth> avoid anything tagged andythenorth
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19:58:02  <V453000> XD
19:58:09  <V453000> while V453000 is suited for beginners only
19:59:19  <Alberth> crem: depends heavily on what you like to do
19:59:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: 1st group patch looks ok
19:59:58  <Alberth> too late to actually try it
20:02:07  <andythenorth> worked for me, if that’s worth anything
20:02:43  <Alberth> crem: if you want to stay close to what you know, the OpenGFX+ grfs are nice
20:02:53  <Alberth> have a look at the parameters
20:03:06  <crem> let me check..
20:03:31  <Alberth> The OpenGfx+Industries does need the OpenGfx+Trains and RVs, or it will not work
20:04:09  <crem> Yes those dependencies are confusing. And it seems there are two versions of each.
20:04:12  <Alberth> using FIRS and selecting a  basic economy is quite new but manageable
20:04:37  <Alberth> crem: industry sets add new cargoes that the default set doesn't know
20:04:43  <crem> In addition to OpenGfx+?
20:05:02  <Alberth> any industry newgrf
20:05:50  <Alberth> so you always need vehicle sets if you want to play with a non-default industry grf
20:06:48  <crem> There are three FIRSes.. FIRS 2, FIRS Industry replacement set, and FIRS Industry replacement set 3
20:07:11  <Alberth> yep, andy is a busy firs producer
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20:07:39  <Alberth> newest is likely best :)
20:08:11  <andythenorth> FIRS 3 is fricking awesome
20:08:17  <andythenorth> and nearly finished :P
20:08:32  <LordAro> lies
20:08:56  * andythenorth wonders if finishing it is a current goal
20:09:07  <Alberth> if you want something different for trains and RVs but quite traditional, try Iron Horse and Road Hog
20:09:23  <andythenorth> I keep going back to NARS 2 also
20:09:24  <Alberth> if you want to do transport mayhem, use NUTS
20:09:28  * andythenorth loves NARS 2
20:09:57  <andythenorth> when I finally replicate NARS 2 in Iron Horse, I can probably stop doing OpenTTD stuff :)
20:10:08  <crem> wow, at least it started! Milk Production! mooo/  I've never managed to start anything with newgrf before. (didn't know what to pick and picked random stuff).
20:10:08  <Alberth> haha:)
20:10:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: justload both nars2 and IH ?
20:10:51  <andythenorth> well yes
20:10:54  <andythenorth> sometimes I do
20:11:24  <Alberth> nars2 had this changing running costs, doesn't it?
20:11:25  <andythenorth> crem: if it helps…
20:11:37  <andythenorth> I think pikka removed those as bad feature maybe
20:11:38  <andythenorth> not sure
20:12:01  <crem> It surely looks good, will read!
20:12:17  <andythenorth> ‘get started’ page is work in progress
20:12:29  <andythenorth> feedback welcome, especially from people who’ve never newgrfed before
20:12:50  <Alberth> crem: for ships, fish2 is freat
20:12:57  <Alberth> *great
20:13:12  <andythenorth> I would also add AV9 for planes
20:13:16  <andythenorth> maybe a bit much all at once
20:13:23  <andythenorth> but helicopters are useful in FIRS
20:13:28  <Alberth> neverplay with aircraft:)
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20:14:16  <Alberth> Although I think I moved that all important steel on one map, by plane
20:14:57  <crem> yeah planes usually make it boring. But actually with trains profit very quickly starts to be unmanageable. As in.. you don't know how to get rid of all that money.
20:15:26  <Alberth> juststop caring about money, and build what you like
20:15:40  <andythenorth> planes are very handy for the supplies mechanic in FIRS
20:16:00  <crem> Ok, will try. I guess I have enough to start with.
20:16:01  <Alberth> although a lot of fun is in keeping the landscape intact
20:17:02  <Alberth> if you tend to flatten all mountains, I would suggest you stop doing that for a few games
20:17:35  <Alberth> other options are to add lots of water (60%) or so, and do shipping between islands
20:18:07  <crem> Yeah, I did that once.  Lots of water, huge map, 1 instance of every industry.
20:19:24  <Alberth> I usually play 512x512 or 1024x512, quite big enough for a single player
20:19:58  <crem> I usually (almost) don't change landscape, but I guess initially I select it to be not very hilly.
20:20:28  <Alberth> hilly makes making a route more difficult
20:20:55  <Alberth> especially if you increase the freight multiplier to 5 or so
20:21:28  <Alberth> probably too much for non-NUTS sets :)
20:21:33  <andythenorth> 436 FS left :P
20:21:50  <andythenorth> 10 gone today
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20:25:17  <V453000> interesting, I did some testing on the python multithreading and basically I'm getting 8 times more speed with 16 times more threads ... that's not too bad :)
20:25:36  <V453000> considering all the horrors I heard how python is bad with multithreading
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20:26:25  <_dp_> V453000, are you using threads or processes?
20:27:04  <_dp_> threads are only good for io stuff usually
20:27:53  <andythenorth> subprocess
20:28:10  <V453000> some Pool thing :D
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21:21:09  <andythenorth> such bedtime
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23:04:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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