Log for #openttd on 30th August 2017:
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03:59:18  <gentz> Uhhhh... so I'm making a patch which makes the convert/upgrade rails button also upgrade trains if there in a depo
03:59:33  <gentz> cause electric -> monorail is super painfull
04:00:06  <gentz> Is there anyone who I should consult on this/ask permission from before I start?
05:33:30  <LordAro> gentz: permission? no one. that's open source for you :p
05:34:07  <LordAro> however, if you're actually planning on getting it included in the game in the future, that's a bit more tricky
05:34:32  <gentz> Yes thats what I mean
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05:40:23  <LordAro> i'm not aware of any existing patch that does this, but there are a few newgrfs that attempt to solve the same issue (universal railtypes, notably)
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06:28:32  <Flygon> So you specify what train is upgraded to which when upgrading the track?
06:28:42  <Flygon> ie. to account for NewGRF sets, rather than the base-set.
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06:33:56  <Deactivated> Hi guys'
06:34:50  <Deactivated> #join ttdreddit
06:35:03  <Deactivated> oops sorry
06:35:22  <Deactivated> trying to guess the channel for the server ircs
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08:31:01  <Alkel_U3> GUIwise, specifying the replacement scheme could be done from the autoreplace window. It won't be carried out when the new train is incompatible with the depot's railtype but it could be accounted for when performing the depot upgrade
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09:49:16  <Wolf01> o/
09:50:19  <Wolf01> Strange, it took me more time to have the breakfast (a coffee) than going to bank
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10:39:47  <planetmaker> LordAro, can you check whether paste.o.o works for you now w/o cert issues?
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10:55:46  <LordAro> planetmaker: works \o/
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11:14:22  <Wolf01> Works for me too
11:40:50  <planetmaker> wonderful
11:45:10  <LordAro> thanks planetmaker :)
11:54:00  <andythenorth> no cert issues for me now either :)
11:54:04  <andythenorth> thanks
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13:48:19  <andythenorth> isn’t it
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14:06:08  <Wolf01> Iz will of live?
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14:11:24  <Alberth> o/
14:11:40  <Wolf01> o/
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14:25:37  <andythenorth> @summon frosch123
14:25:37  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
14:25:45  <andythenorth> @get chalk
14:25:45  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: 'chalk' is not a valid topic number.
14:25:50  <andythenorth> @buy chalk
14:25:53  <andythenorth> @find chalk
14:25:58  <andythenorth> @pickup chalk
14:26:03  <andythenorth> @go north
14:26:05  <andythenorth> hmm
14:26:05  <andythenorth>
14:40:50  <Alberth> very tiring hypy
14:41:42  <andythenorth> Wolf01: iz will
14:41:47  <andythenorth> such html
14:42:10  <Alberth> more firs, I see
14:42:18  <andythenorth> norwegian
14:42:22  <andythenorth> and so on
14:42:27  <andythenorth> Norwegian FIRS
14:42:31  <Alberth> :o
14:42:32  <andythenorth> Leif should fork it :)
14:42:33  <Wolf01> andythenorth: send me some will?
14:42:46  <andythenorth> Wolf01: is it not for cheap on ebay?
14:43:28  <Wolf01> Seem it's against ebay tos to sell that
14:47:14  <Wolf01> I can exchange some will with a bag full of air bags
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14:55:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: that link iz excellent
14:56:18  <andythenorth> it was linked back from the JS version someone posted here a month or so ago
14:57:02  <LordAro> yeah, i thought it was reminiscent
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16:08:21  <Alberth> o/
16:08:35  <planetmaker> \o
16:12:46  <andythenorth> |o|
16:12:54  <andythenorth> “waving or drowning?"
16:13:54  <LordAro> why not both?
16:18:30  <andythenorth> “waving whilst drowning"
16:19:40  <frosch123> hoi
16:19:45  <Wolf01> Quak
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16:37:28  <andythenorth> ticket wars
16:37:29  <andythenorth> such
16:42:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- does that work?
16:45:16  <Wolf01> Does not have http(s):// in front, so it's not clickable :P
16:45:39  <frosch123> do you have osx?
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16:49:44  <Wolf01> You asked if that works, as a link it doesn't (needs to be copied and pasted in browser), I can't speak about the content
16:52:44  <frosch123> don't turn into eddi
16:52:58  <Wolf01> I was bored, sorry
16:54:32  <Wolf01> BBL
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16:58:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: planetmaker: actually, do you still have 32bit osx systems?
16:59:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: not sure how to check but I doubt it
16:59:58  <andythenorth> iirc, Apple have dropped 32 bit apps
17:00:04  <andythenorth> or have announced they are
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17:01:50  <andythenorth> seems mine is 64 bit
17:02:52  <frosch123> osx 10.6 is the last 32bit one or something
17:03:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: binary you linked w.f.m
17:03:41  * andythenorth would be more ruthless about dropping old OS X version support
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17:04:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: TrueBrain-Bot: so, what actualy needs doing then? the docker files you linked just work (tm)
17:06:40  <planetmaker> frosch123, I do still have the old laptop. And it might even boot into OSXX 10.6 or whatever it has. I haven't started it in ages
17:06:54  <planetmaker> I think that's a 64 bit system, though
17:07:13  <frosch123> so, no point in creating a 32bit binary for testing?
17:07:27  <planetmaker> it can build and run 32bit and 64 bit binaries
17:07:30  <andythenorth> I have a 32 bit mac in my loft
17:07:32  <andythenorth> but no
17:07:37  <planetmaker> usually that's combined to a universal one.
17:07:50  <LordAro> might be worth asking on the forums?
17:07:54  <LordAro> you never know
17:08:12  <planetmaker> but... I wouldn't think anyone with a straight mind would still play OpenTTD on a 32bit mac system
17:08:22  <andythenorth> we have open FS about compiling on 10.4
17:08:27  <planetmaker> however people build it for a raspberry pie and simiolar
17:08:32  <andythenorth> probably 32 bit PowerPC
17:08:39  <andythenorth> meanwhile
17:08:58  <andythenorth> you buy the fruit logo, you get aggressive deprecation
17:09:06  <andythenorth> other brands of computer are available
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17:11:23  <andythenorth> I would reject
17:11:31  <andythenorth> I would close this as no longer relevant
17:12:26  <andythenorth> I would also reject
17:12:52  <andythenorth> I’ve only left them open in case I’m missing something
17:12:54  <andythenorth> :)
17:13:11  <andythenorth> defining official support policies…eh I’m not authorised for that :)
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17:30:29  <andythenorth> biab
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17:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27903 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-08-30 19:45:39 +0200 )
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> vietnamese: 37 changes by myquartz
17:46:19  <Wolf01> Friend (yes, that one) asked for "openttd:" protocol to connect to server links clicked in browser/email/wtf
17:46:21  <Wolf01> BBL again
17:47:27  <Wolf01> BTW I told him to stop harassing me with stupid things and just use the ingame server browser
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18:13:23  <andythenorth> quintuple rainbow over my house
18:13:24  <andythenorth> unusual
18:14:28  <frosch123> not bad
18:14:59  <andythenorth> shall I close those OS X tickets then? o_O
18:15:12  <andythenorth> we don’t have a maintainer to comment, and the BDFL is absent :P
18:15:17  <frosch123> most weird thing i ever saw was when it rained so heavily while sun-shining that the raindrops smashing onto the street created a ground fog with rainbows in them
18:15:50  <frosch123> like, usually rainbows are far away, but there it were only like 10m
18:16:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: how long does it last if you only close one per day?
18:16:29  <andythenorth> ~14 months?
18:16:41  <frosch123> i meant the osx ones :p
18:16:52  <andythenorth> ach, probably a week :P
18:17:01  <andythenorth> some are stupid, impossible to repro
18:25:40  <andythenorth> random segfault crap :)
18:25:50  <andythenorth> ‘it runs for a while'
18:26:56  <andythenorth> just a crashlog, on a 4 year old Apple OS that I don’t have
18:27:03  <andythenorth> with no savegame no repro steps
18:31:32  <andythenorth> hmm
18:31:38  <andythenorth> is there a policy on crash reports?
18:37:05  <frosch123> the other platforms give a backtrace in the crash.log
18:37:15  <frosch123> noone seem to have implemented that for osx
18:40:19  <andythenorth> it’s probably not something I’d be able to learn quickly :P
18:41:13  <frosch123> it should be similar to the linux one
18:41:21  <frosch123> though maybe it needs clang specific code
18:41:30  <frosch123> so, maybe also something for LordAro
18:41:31  <andythenorth> should I put a mac on SSH somewhere? :P
18:42:00  <andythenorth> I do actually have spare macs, and a moderately stable cable connection
18:42:03  <LordAro> !
18:43:02  <frosch123> LordAro: does clang also link with glibc?
18:43:21  <frosch123> i.e. does src/os/unix/crashlog_unix.cpp become active as well?
18:43:34  <frosch123> it has implementations for glibc and solaris (wtf)
18:43:52  <LordAro> good question
18:43:59  <LordAro> it uses gcc's stdlib by defauly
18:44:01  <LordAro> t
18:44:14  <frosch123> otoh, do i recall some c++11 stuff for backtraces?
18:44:27  <andythenorth>  / month to rent a crap mac mini in a datacentre :P
18:47:44  * andythenorth too mean
18:48:52  <frosch123> so, there is a crashlog_osx.cpp, and it contains code for stacktraces
18:48:58  <frosch123> does it not work?
18:49:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you kill your openttd with "killall -6 openttd"
18:49:24  <frosch123> does the crash.log contain a stacktrace?
18:51:11  * andythenorth testing
18:52:04  <andythenorth>
18:52:26  <andythenorth> time is UTC? :o
18:52:41  * andythenorth hasn’t figured the offset, but it’s off by one hour compared to BST
18:53:14  <frosch123> ok, so it contains some stacktrace
18:53:38  <frosch123> can't tell whether it is short because it was idling
18:55:47  <andythenorth> want another?
18:56:19  <frosch123> can you make a real crash, like reloading bad newgrf :p
18:56:28  <frosch123> you may have experience with that :)
18:57:54  <andythenorth>
18:58:03  <andythenorth> I crash it a lot on changed strings :P
18:58:09  <andythenorth> but that was killall
18:59:45  <blocage> there is no offscreen drawing ?
18:59:46  <frosch123> well, that crashlog code has been there since at least 2009
19:00:10  <frosch123> so, no idea why some tasks have none
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19:04:13  <andythenorth> maybe the crashlog code crashed :P
19:05:24  <andythenorth> is it fair game to close crash reports without full information?
19:05:50  <andythenorth> imo, crash reports tend towards being useful in aggregate, not individual cases :P
19:05:55  <frosch123> there is a close reason "not enough information"
19:11:11  <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O
19:11:39  <frosch123> i read about that, but never saw it
19:11:46  <frosch123> must be more than 10 years ago :)
19:13:22  <andythenorth> aggregate, data-mine, plot on a chart :P
19:13:37  <andythenorth> I have NFI how to actually do that, but it’s an interesting project
19:14:23  <frosch123> well, given that crash.dmp end up being beyond 20mib lately...
19:14:43  <andythenorth> that does get interesting
19:14:48  <andythenorth> it would scale horribly? :)
19:14:59  <frosch123> while we extract like 500byte from them...
19:15:19  <andythenorth> could we ingest crash reports on a queue, extract the data, incremement statistics, delete the raw report?
19:15:44  <andythenorth> somewhat similar to a behaviour tracking system we wrote for flash games years ago at work
19:16:03  <andythenorth> except not 20mib
19:16:08  <andythenorth> more like a few kb
19:18:23  <frosch123> hmm, maybe release builds are compiled without debug symbols
19:19:05  <frosch123> stable binary is about 2mib smaller than nightly for osx
19:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O <-- i vaguely remember a button like "send crash report", but i think that never worked. or was disabled on most platforms, or something
19:24:20  <andythenorth> hmm
19:24:23  <andythenorth> eh ok
19:24:34  <andythenorth> well I closed 2 OS X bugs
19:24:39  <andythenorth> 398 FS left :P
19:25:46  <planetmaker> frosch123, andythenorth I used to get stacktraces on OSX... but maybe things changed?
19:25:53  <planetmaker> you need to compile as debug build possibly, though
19:27:58  <andythenorth> how would this get closed? :)
19:28:07  <andythenorth> if it’s possibly fixed?
19:28:34  <andythenorth> another OS X, no stacktrace
19:29:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you can close 6365
19:29:23  <andythenorth> no further reports?
19:29:32  <frosch123> apparently not
19:30:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: i bet 6393 is "out of memory"
19:31:15  <frosch123> hmm, nah
19:31:15  <andythenorth> seems to be a pattern of OS X AI bugs?
19:31:37  <frosch123> it is a 32bit binary, and it uses 32bpp blitter, but no 32bpp baseset
19:32:06  <frosch123> though... does that change it?
19:32:14  <frosch123> it's the same memory usage right?
19:32:26  <andythenorth> hmm, AI issues aren’t specific to OS X, nvm
19:32:37  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the sprite cache size get automatically adjusted?
19:32:45  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but before the ais
19:33:05  <frosch123> so after spritecache you have very little heap, and ai may use all of that
19:33:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: can you find a pattern "32bit binary, 32bit blitter, ai crash"?
19:33:55  <andythenorth> errr
19:33:58  <frosch123> all of those are potentially "out of memory"
19:34:28  <andythenorth> I tagged all the crashes :P
19:34:40  <andythenorth> they’re not all out of memory, I can see that much :)
19:35:17  <andythenorth> if only we had a thing that parsed crash logs into sqlite or something :P
19:35:37  <frosch123> you can likely write a python script for that
19:35:47  <frosch123> query all fs, download all crash.log, parse them
19:36:02  <andythenorth> sounds like a job for LordAro :)
19:36:38  <frosch123> poor boy :)
19:36:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01 was bored earlier
19:37:03  <andythenorth> flyspray has rss buried somewhere
19:37:19  <andythenorth> or just curl html and use libxml or something
19:37:32  <andythenorth> walking the dom is always fun :P
19:38:16  <frosch123> i would use regex on the html
19:38:25  <andythenorth> the horrible thing is, given a spare weekend I could actually write this in python :|
19:38:31  <andythenorth> it wouldn’t be good, but it would work
19:38:45  <frosch123> i would think it's a single-use software
19:43:54  <andythenorth> for 32 bug reports, manually processing them would be faster
19:43:58  <andythenorth> but reall dull
19:44:02  <andythenorth> really *
19:45:27  <andythenorth> looks like 32 bit blitter + binary
19:46:15  <andythenorth> oh no, that’s a 64 bit binary
19:46:21  * andythenorth looking in wrong place :P
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19:48:52  <andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary
19:49:59  <andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary, AI Crash (comment by frosch123)
19:50:52  <andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary
19:51:14  <frosch123> 6322 says "out of memory" in the crash.log explicitly :)
19:51:28  <frosch123> i guess the question was whether ottd should catch ais causing out of memory
19:52:07  <andythenorth> I’ve been through all 32 FS ‘Crash:’, those are the ones that fit the criteria
19:52:14  * andythenorth could have made mistakes but eh
19:52:32  <frosch123> (in this case the ai tires to allocate 200mib, which is 10% of everything, and spritecache already takes like 50%)
19:53:00  <andythenorth> seems like there are four possibly related to same cause?
19:53:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: well, two of them already blame the ais in the comments :)
19:53:17  <andythenorth> yes
19:53:28  <andythenorth> should I link them? Or overkill?
19:54:20  <frosch123> keep 6322, link the rest as duplicate
19:54:38  <andythenorth> ok
19:57:13  <andythenorth> oh probably this as well?
19:58:37  <frosch123> so we have a 32bit macosx user in 2017 :)
19:58:40  <andythenorth> seems OS X will segfault on OOM
19:58:47  <andythenorth> or so random google searches imply :P
19:58:54  <andythenorth> “andythenorth is not a programmer”
19:59:19  <andythenorth> also seems OS X will segfault if trying to allocate more than 3GB on a 32bit system
20:00:02  <frosch123> i guess since 6615 is recent, we could recommend to disable 32bpp blitter via openttd.cfg or command line
20:01:00  <andythenorth> I closed it as duplicate, should I reopen and request user tries 8bpp blitter?
20:01:15  <frosch123> no reopen, just a hint
20:01:30  <frosch123> i doubt the user would get that info from the other task
20:01:50  <frosch123> actuall,y the guy runs osx 10.12
20:02:04  <frosch123> so 10.12 does exist for 32bit?
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20:04:08  <andythenorth> not afaik
20:04:27  <andythenorth> r
20:04:32  <andythenorth>
20:04:34  <frosch123> well, 6615 says so
20:05:23  <andythenorth> internet says Apple dropped 32 bit CPU support in 2011, but they still support 32 bit apps until 10.14
20:07:04  <andythenorth> is 32 bit blitter / 32 bit build, but looks like a different cause?
20:07:40  <frosch123> yes, if it is reproducible with the save :)
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20:11:46  <andythenorth> well 7 closed today
20:12:01  <andythenorth> this one is intriguing
20:12:11  <andythenorth> it’s rare to see a newgrf-related crash afaik
20:13:03  <andythenorth> I accidentally discovered it, because habitually I ignore the ‘newgrfs are missing’ message on game load
20:13:11  <andythenorth> due to…reasons
20:13:21  <andythenorth> then I bisected the grfs
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20:20:04  <andythenorth> hmm
20:20:19  <andythenorth> how is news posted to
20:20:40  <frosch123> via django
20:20:48  <frosch123> it's the only thing we use django for :p
20:21:11  <frosch123> hmm, actually the security advistor is also run via django, but we have not used that in years
20:21:36  <andythenorth> meh
20:21:52  <andythenorth> I wondered about posting some updates on state of dev
20:22:06  <andythenorth> but I don’t actually want community comments on it, in a thread
20:22:14  <andythenorth> so not forums
20:22:46  <andythenorth> do I read gitlog right, adf88 now has commit rights?
20:22:54  <frosch123> yes
20:23:47  <andythenorth> so 50% reduction in FS, multiple patches implemented, and new feature for visualising train length? o_O. And a new dev
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20:25:28  <andythenorth> ^ that’s news eh
20:25:50  <andythenorth> a project that has good news more likely attracts more decent devs
20:26:56  <frosch123> do you want to blog? :)
20:27:05  <frosch123> tb writes a blog every few years
20:27:27  <frosch123> V used to write blogs on coop, but then switched to writing them at work
20:28:26  <andythenorth> I don’t want to blog no
20:28:35  <frosch123> anyway, i do not develop constantly enough to twitch-stream it :p
20:28:42  <andythenorth> but I would like to attract in 1-2 more devs, to make it all more fun
20:28:48  <frosch123> it's always 5 minuted that, 5 minutes this
20:29:09  <andythenorth> it would be nice to have someone doing little updates
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20:29:49  <andythenorth> I would rather blog than work on the current web stack :P
20:30:43  <andythenorth> but most of all I should finish FIRS v3
20:30:47  <andythenorth> such FIRS
20:31:07  <andythenorth> otoh, if we fix Bananas I can fix the stupidity of FIRS names
20:31:08  <frosch123> write a newgrf newbie guide :)
20:31:12  <andythenorth> ugh
20:31:33  <andythenorth> I wondered about writing an updated contributing-to-openttd guide
20:31:40  <frosch123> or improve the ottd gui to easily import grf presets
20:31:54  <frosch123> and allow downloading the grfs for presets
20:32:19  <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set”
20:32:22  <andythenorth> “FIRS 2"
20:32:33  <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3"
20:32:38  <andythenorth> should have named it better eh?
20:32:56  <frosch123> well, bananas cannot rename stuff :)
20:33:05  <frosch123> one of its biggest downsides
20:34:08  <frosch123> i wonder, if we had a proper spec for bananas, what would it cost to hire some crud to implement it?
20:34:18  <frosch123> or would it end up like the factorio mod portal?
20:35:10  <frosch123> (factorio mod portal was written by some community member, then purchased by the devs, and is cursed since then)
20:35:32  * andythenorth looks at the repo
20:36:07  <andythenorth> so in theory, I could have commit access to extra/website, without having to have access to main repo?
20:36:27  <glx> hmm it's all or nothing I think
20:36:35  <andythenorth> otherwise I have to do everything in github, and file pull requests against one of you
20:36:51  <andythenorth> and there is no way I want or would get commit right on ottd
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20:37:01  <glx> too dangerous ;)
20:37:10  <andythenorth> in so many ways
20:37:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: eints is also separate
20:37:31  <frosch123> there is zero reason for it to be in ottd svn
20:37:50  <andythenorth> it would not be a bad project to pioneer moving to github?
20:38:08  <andythenorth> I am surprised there are not more web dev contributors tbh
20:38:12  <andythenorth> although maybe I shouldn’t be
20:38:15  <frosch123> the question is whether it even makes sense to build on top of the old one
20:38:38  <andythenorth> I can’t comment until I get the VM, run it, and figure out how to SSH into it :P
20:38:50  <andythenorth> you’ve scared me with the master server commentary
20:39:08  <frosch123> bananas is fairly easy in comparison
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20:40:26  <frosch123> the advantage of webapps is that you can mostly replace them and migrate the database once
20:40:35  <frosch123> you do not have to keep savegame compatibility :p
20:42:21  <glx> but sometimes the DB structure is a problem
20:42:45  <frosch123> like?
20:44:43  <_dp_> but in webapps there is IE to deal with :p
20:45:28  * andythenorth will be dropping IE 9 support in Jan 2018 :P
20:45:34  <andythenorth> only 2 years after microsoft
20:45:57  <andythenorth> frosch123 the front end…I’d just rebuild from scratch
20:46:05  <andythenorth> I’ve rebuilt websites and web apps n times
20:46:34  <andythenorth> I’m not a huge fan of technical docs, but is there a basic diagram for bananas?
20:46:45  <andythenorth> either the stack, or data flow?
20:46:53  * _dp_ rebuilt web apps many times too, some of them even successfully :p
20:46:53  <andythenorth> or calls between services
20:47:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a database with iiirc a single table for all the content
20:47:39  <andythenorth> (1) how big is it
20:47:48  <frosch123> when stuff is added, the data is extracted in some safe way, tested with a few scripts, and then repackaged
20:47:50  <andythenorth> (2) are the binaries in the db, or blobs on disk?
20:48:10  <frosch123> can't remember
20:48:19  <frosch123> easy to check with the vm
20:48:31  <andythenorth> :P
20:49:12  <andythenorth> hey I didn’t lose it when I migrated laptop :)
20:49:42  <andythenorth> oh maybe I did, that’s just an old Virtualbox config I found
20:51:29  <andythenorth> it’s nice that VirtualBox is free
20:51:41  <andythenorth> I would otherwise pay as much as £8.99 for it
20:51:54  <peter1138> that much?
20:51:55  <peter1138> shocking
20:52:03  <andythenorth> I would not be happy at that price
20:52:55  <andythenorth> well it’s running frosch123
20:52:59  <andythenorth> how do I linux? :P
20:53:27  <frosch123> did your add port-forwarding?
20:53:33  <andythenorth> nah
20:53:40  <andythenorth> nor do I have the login password stored here
20:53:47  <frosch123> openttd/openttd
20:54:47  <andythenorth> in
20:54:55  <andythenorth> ls works :P
20:55:11  <frosch123> oh, 8 tables even
20:55:23  <LordAro> i may or may not have been playing with rewriting the website in django 1.11
20:55:32  <andythenorth> non-committal :P
20:55:39  <frosch123> LordAro: albert may have as well
20:55:45  <LordAro> hehe
20:55:48  <frosch123> you should agree on what actually needs doing
20:56:04  <LordAro> i've thrown everything out and started again :p
20:56:17  <LordAro> and am just taking what's relevant
20:56:28  * andythenorth has never djangoed
20:56:40  <_dp_> screw django, lets' rewrite in flask :p
20:56:47  <andythenorth> it’s probably just python views backed by models, with a templating language?
20:56:50  <andythenorth> and some dispatcher
20:56:57  <andythenorth> and a wsgi pipeline frontend?
20:57:03  <andythenorth> +1 to flask
20:57:13  <LordAro> yeah, i mean ultimately django is overkill for what the site currently does
20:57:28  <andythenorth> obviously picking the tech should come before having any actual goals :)
20:57:29  <LordAro> flask comes with its own issues though
20:57:43  <LordAro> i suspect it might be too minimalistic for this
20:58:02  <andythenorth> actually I am -1 to flask
20:58:11  <andythenorth> eints is bottle
20:58:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would start with the database layout
20:58:22  <blocage> you talk about the openttd web site ?
20:58:27  <frosch123> anyway, bananas content is on disk
20:58:29  <LordAro> andythenorth: simple.http,clearly
20:58:35  <frosch123> database only contains links
20:58:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: usually I start from core entities in the site => base classes => data structure
20:58:56  <andythenorth> but eh, I live in a world of python objects
20:59:06  <andythenorth> it’s all just tables in sql land
20:59:09  <_dp_> LordAro, how is it "too minimalistic", it can do pretty much everything django can, you just pick separate libraries instead of bundled ones
20:59:22  <andythenorth> are we going to have a framework-off?
20:59:27  <andythenorth> wake me up when it’s done :P
20:59:41  <LordAro> _dp_: i've had bad experiences with those separate libraries
21:00:02  <andythenorth> the currently winning python combo for apps is pyramid + postgres
21:00:20  <andythenorth> website agencies seem to favour django, it’s probably doing more out of the box for them
21:00:35  <andythenorth> everyone hacking their own little thing seems to like bottle or flask
21:00:38  <_dp_> LordAro, I had bad experience trying to make django work with those separate libraries :p
21:00:45  <LordAro> hehe
21:01:14  * andythenorth prefers a compile to static html if at all possible
21:01:39  <LordAro> aye
21:02:25  <andythenorth> the master server does what?
21:02:32  <LordAro> there are bits of the site that are dynamic though
21:02:40  <andythenorth> handshakes with clients and routes requests to appropriate services?
21:03:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: there are two parts of master server
21:03:43  <frosch123> one is contacted by the servers to register them
21:04:02  <frosch123> the other part queries the servers on return, to see their status and query newgrf for the website
21:04:25  <frosch123> anyway, no need to touch any of that currently
21:04:42  <andythenorth> is it isolated behind some API>
21:04:43  <andythenorth> ?
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21:04:59  <frosch123> it runs without django
21:05:08  <_dp_> I bet it's isolated behind some db :p
21:05:10  <andythenorth> how does django talk to it? Or not ?
21:05:18  <frosch123> through some db iirc
21:05:27  <frosch123> django just reads
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21:05:43  <frosch123> actually, likely plain python without django
21:05:53  <frosch123> just read db contents
21:06:28  * andythenorth needs a stack diagram
21:07:19  <andythenorth> will I make any sense of it by ls-ing dirs in the VM?
21:07:26  <andythenorth> that’s how I usually find my way around web apps
21:07:35  <frosch123> start with the readme :)
21:08:11  <andythenorth> I’ve crashed the VM :)
21:08:25  <LordAro> that took you less than a minute
21:08:30  <andythenorth> pretty good eh?
21:08:53  <frosch123> you crashed the vm without crashing your whole machine?
21:09:04  <andythenorth> resized the virtualbox window
21:09:11  <andythenorth> sounds like our bugs too eh?
21:09:19  <frosch123> it has been long since vbox messed something up, but if, then it took the whole machine with it
21:10:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you could also read musad source
21:10:15  <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM I have to set up some kind of mount point on OS X
21:10:21  * andythenorth re-phrases
21:10:28  <frosch123> it only contains the base business logic without the gui mess
21:10:33  <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM, I have to…google stuff
21:10:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: i usually configure port forwarding for ssh and http
21:11:06  <frosch123> then login via ssh to the box
21:11:12  <frosch123> or mount via sshfs
21:11:48  <Wolf01> Back
21:12:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: i believe that is also written in the readme :p
21:12:30  <andythenorth> it is
21:12:52  <andythenorth> I just have to translate it into OS X, and be sure I’m not breaking our infosec policy
21:13:16  <andythenorth> stuff
21:14:23  <LordAro> frosch123: on a related subject, the ovh sponsor html stuff is a horrid flash thing, do you think you could dig up something a bit more modern?
21:14:48  <frosch123> LordAro: well, we have not been sponsored for 2 years, just noone removed it
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21:14:58  <LordAro> oh
21:15:00  <LordAro> lol.
21:16:19  <andythenorth> shall we just move it all to wix? o_O
21:16:38  <frosch123> i hate their advertisement
21:16:52  <frosch123> squarespace has at least nicer ads
21:17:03  <frosch123> anyway, nope :p
21:17:44  <LordAro> andythenorth: apparently it generates horrendous sites
21:18:04  <andythenorth> I am not sold, not even at £free
21:18:13  <andythenorth> how do I get out of readme.txt?
21:18:23  <andythenorth> I typed ‘edit readme.txt'
21:18:23  <frosch123> how did you get into?
21:18:27  <andythenorth> :q isn’t working
21:18:50  <frosch123> esc :q!
21:18:53  <andythenorth> ctrl-c :quit
21:19:32  <frosch123> i watched a gitlab video recently
21:19:53  <andythenorth> hmm
21:19:59  <andythenorth> stuck in vim :P
21:20:02  <andythenorth> ‘recording'
21:20:02  <frosch123> they demonstrated how to login to the deployment vm
21:20:13  <frosch123> which was essentially a shell in a webbroweser
21:20:21  <frosch123> and then the guy used vi to edit something
21:20:52  <frosch123> so you had vi in a webbrowser tab :p
21:21:31  <andythenorth> ach
21:21:45  <andythenorth> reset the machine :P
21:21:53  <andythenorth> life is too short for vim
21:22:03  <andythenorth> or finding out what my keyboard is bound too in the VM
21:22:05  <andythenorth> one or the other
21:22:24  <frosch123> oh, true, it may have a german keyboard layout :p
21:22:28  <frosch123> even more reason to login via ssh
21:23:02  <frosch123> so ":" is shift+"."
21:23:04  <andythenorth> :P
21:23:08  <andythenorth> ha
21:23:41  <andythenorth> that works
21:24:51  <andythenorth> so what do we need to do again?
21:24:55  <andythenorth> - new bananas
21:24:57  <andythenorth> - new website
21:25:00  <Wolf01> Get me less bored
21:25:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: only "new bananas"
21:25:26  <andythenorth> with features?
21:25:37  <frosch123> yes, all those listed yesterday
21:25:42  <andythenorth> do we need to reskin?
21:25:45  <andythenorth> can we avoid that?
21:25:56  <andythenorth> reskinning is like my glamorous day job
21:25:58  <Wolf01> "openttd:" protocol... just kidding
21:25:59  <frosch123> keep the bananas, noone cares about the rest
21:26:08  <frosch123> make it bootstrap again
21:26:09  <andythenorth> and anyone else doing the skin will likely annoy me :p
21:26:21  <andythenorth> I need to learn bootstrap 4 anyway
21:26:28  <andythenorth> I am stuck in 2 and 3 land
21:26:51  <_dp_> is 4 out yet?
21:27:20  <andythenorth> they’ve flipped the main docs over to it
21:27:25  <andythenorth> so I think so
21:27:25  <Wolf01> Man... the one I used last was 2
21:27:35  * andythenorth exploring
21:27:56  <_dp_> idk, still looks alpha to me
21:28:08  <Wolf01> Alpha 6
21:28:19  <Wolf01> There is beta too
21:28:29  <andythenorth> eh it’s all gone flexbox?
21:28:32  <_dp_> I'm waiting for that damn thing for more than a year already
21:29:01  <_dp_> oh, beta indeed
21:29:03  <andythenorth> flexbox is likely 5 years in my future :(
21:29:43  <Wolf01> Flexbox seem the fashion of the moment, and I didn't even used that yet, I usually try all that new stuff
21:29:52  <_dp_> " we finally have our first beta release of Bootstrap 4. In that time, we’ve broken all the things at least twenty-seven times over ..."
21:29:55  <_dp_> sounds promising xD
21:30:05  <andythenorth> yeah, no flexbox for me
21:30:18  <LordAro> F
21:30:49  <andythenorth> seriously, who is using flexbox anywhere if there is broken IE support?
21:31:10  <andythenorth> presumably mac-using hipster JS developers?
21:31:18  * andythenorth combines stereotypes :P
21:31:56  <Wolf01> ShittIE still used more than Edge :(
21:33:24  <_dp_> I think last web thing I was doing only worked in alpha ff xD
21:37:06  <andythenorth> is bed should I
21:37:42  <andythenorth> bye
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22:43:32  <Wolf01> $friend says that running openttd.exe -n ip, it freeze at newgrf scanning
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