Log for #openttd on 31st August 2017:
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05:33:48  <gentz> So I've made an account here:
05:34:18  <gentz> but when I try to log in here:
05:34:55  <gentz> It says my username/password combo is unknown
05:35:03  <gentz> Any clue why?
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05:53:11  <risajef> Hi. Is anyone here?
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06:01:12  <risajef> Hi
06:01:29  <gentz> Post the question
06:01:34  <gentz> hope someone responds
06:02:04  <risajef> My opensfx does not work
06:02:14  <risajef> I'm on debian linux
06:02:28  <gentz> Any specific error?
06:02:40  <risajef> I't just doesn't play the sounds
06:02:47  <risajef> Music works, but not sounds
06:03:08  <risajef> I installed it via the ingame downloader, and afterwards manually, both does not work
06:03:17  <gentz> Can you try running "openttd -v"
06:03:29  <gentz> See if you have a sdl sound driver
06:03:42  <gentz> And sound sets
06:04:15  <risajef> List of sounds sets:            OpenSFX
06:04:28  <risajef> List of sound drivers:                sdl: SDL Sound Driver
06:05:09  <gentz> try running "openttd -v sdl"
06:05:24  <gentz> err no
06:05:31  <gentz> -s not -v
06:06:53  <risajef> Still no sound. Still music.
06:07:21  <gentz> This is a stupid question but have you checked you selected OpenSFX
06:07:32  <gentz> under Game Options -> base sound set
06:07:40  <risajef> Yes I have. Not a stupid question. :D
06:08:01  <andythenorth> check your music volume slider in-game
06:08:19  <andythenorth> small chance you’re encountering
06:08:35  <andythenorth> doesn’t sound like it, but worth mentioning
06:12:52  <risajef> It does not work. Another thing I just realized I can't controll the volume by the musicbox. It is always the same volume. But I can start and stop the music.
06:13:22  <gentz> Can ya try running "openttd -d driver=9 -d misc=9"
06:13:45  <gentz> check if its finding the opensfx files
06:14:16  <gentz> and that its probing the sound driver
06:14:18  <risajef> dbg: [misc] Found dir in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/                                                                                          dbg: [misc] Found file in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/opensfx.obs (9356 bytes, 1024 offset)                                                    dbg: [misc] Found file in tar: opensfx-0.2.3/ (13128144 bytes, 11264 offset)
06:14:54  <gentz> also that its loading the sound effects
06:18:48  <risajef> What should there be? I only find: dbg: [misc] Loading sound effects...     three times
06:19:12  <risajef> But never something like: Succsessfully loaded sound effects
06:19:19  <gentz> Thats what I have
06:19:22  <gentz> so looks right
06:19:52  <gentz> I have no clue what else to do
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06:20:12  <gentz> your gonna have to find someone more knowledgeable
06:20:40  <risajef> Nevermind. Thanks a lot for your time. I make a post on the forum.
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06:41:12  <risajef> Another ingame question: How can I increas the percentage of transported things? Is there a wiki page about that? I can't find it. I have on some factories only 30% and the train is never full. Do I need more trainstations?
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06:45:49  <risajef> An ingame question: How can I increas the percentage of transported things? Is there a wiki page about that? I can't find it. I have on some factories only 30% and the train is never full. Do I need more trainstations?
06:47:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by adf88 :: r27904 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2017-08-31 08:47:17 +0200 )
06:47:23  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6593]: When last vehicle is removed from shared orders group, hide the "Stop sharing" button in vehile orders window
06:48:58  <DorpsGek> Commit by adf88 :: r27905 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.h) (2017-08-31 08:48:55 +0200 )
06:48:59  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6585]: Keep the "link" between industry chain and smallmap windows whenever possible
06:51:01  <andythenorth> ho, such commits adf88 :)
06:51:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by adf88 :: r27906 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-08-31 08:51:01 +0200 )
06:51:05  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove some NPF code with no effect and mark possible bug about never used NPF_FLAG_IGNORE_RESERVED flag
06:51:08  <andythenorth> going to get to double figures soon?
06:51:44  <adf88> something is wrong?
06:52:48  <andythenorth> no :)
06:53:01  <adf88> ok :)
06:53:09  <adf88> two more
06:54:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by adf88 :: r27907 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-08-31 08:54:22 +0200 )
06:54:25  <DorpsGek> -Fix: AirportSpec::rotation was memleaking
06:55:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by adf88 :: r27908 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-08-31 08:55:38 +0200 )
06:55:42  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Mark airport tile tables and FTAs "const" to be sure that they are really constant
06:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> risajef: to increase transported % you need to increase your station rating, usually by making sure there is always a train waiting (e.g. with "full load")
06:57:56  <andythenorth> adf88: want me to close the relevant FS tasks? o_O
06:58:44  <adf88> just done
06:59:05  <andythenorth> great :) 390 FS left now
06:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> adf88: andy is now our resident fstaskcloser :p
06:59:28  <adf88> all seems OK, i must leave now so
06:59:29  <andythenorth> ticket gardener
06:59:29  <adf88>  have a nice day :)
06:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> he has found his calling :p
06:59:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s worryingly close to my day job
06:59:57  <andythenorth> in the absence of employing enough developers, I try to get software built by moving tickets around
07:00:02  <andythenorth> _somewhat_works
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07:02:28  * andythenorth wishes someone would commit this one :)
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07:58:24  <andythenorth> peter1138: o/
07:59:46  <peter1138> sup
08:01:13  <andythenorth> want to close this
08:01:24  <andythenorth> “we don’t prevent griefers"
08:01:40  <andythenorth> but you seemed to be interested in fixing it so eh, asking first
08:18:56  <crem>
08:18:58  <crem> \o
08:21:25  <V453000> huminz? mornink?
08:21:25  <V453000> iz?
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08:22:30  <andythenorth> also V453000
08:23:30  <andythenorth> such BRIX?
08:24:05  <gentz> Um so I can't log into flyspray
08:24:15  <gentz> I made an account 3 hours ago or so
08:24:25  <gentz> I can log into the wiki and translator tho
08:24:32  <gentz> Does anyone know whats up?
08:25:07  <V453000> BRIX kind of sleeping for the last 2 days, on Tue I got shitfaced and on Wed I was trying to survive :D
08:25:27  <V453000> and today I will probably work until dead so no brixorz eithar
08:25:31  <V453000> iz gg
08:25:40  <V453000> hopefully moar on weekend =D
08:26:08  <andythenorth> gentz :(
08:26:34  <andythenorth> I can’t help, but ask again later, or post in forums :P
08:28:58  <peter1138> high cpu usage is not "griefing"
08:29:01  <peter1138> it's a bug
08:30:22  <andythenorth> ok
08:32:04  <V453000> depends how many thousand trains you have :P
08:32:30  <blocage> peter1138, hich cpu usage to compute the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is not a bug
08:33:06  * andythenorth removed comment
08:33:15  <blocage> so it's depend what is the root of the CPU usage
08:33:41  <andythenorth> ship pathfinding is inefficient
08:33:50  <andythenorth> [shrug]
08:33:56  <andythenorth> many have tried
08:34:18  <peter1138> i fixed the immediate issue on that task
08:34:24  <peter1138> there are further issues of course
08:34:30  <andythenorth> $someone should commit it
08:34:34  <andythenorth> shall I test it?
08:34:54  <andythenorth> oh I’d have to set up servers and crap
08:36:03  <gentz> Umm, so I made a new acount with an old email
08:36:06  <gentz> and it works
08:36:12  <andythenorth> oh it DOSes my single player client on ffwd
08:36:13  <andythenorth> fine
08:36:14  <gentz> but its an old email
08:36:18  * andythenorth will test the patch
08:36:27  <gentz> so can I like change the email on the account?
08:37:13  <blocage> there is off-screen rendering mechanism in ottd ?
08:40:03  <blocage> looking at how list of vehicul are rendered I would say no, but maybe I missed something
08:42:51  <andythenorth> peter1138:
08:43:39  <peter1138> wtf .mov
08:43:43  <peter1138> crazy apple man :(
08:44:08  <peter1138> blocage, yes
08:44:18  <andythenorth> I used to know about video formats
08:44:24  <andythenorth> it was my job
08:44:34  <andythenorth> now I enjoy clicking the ‘export with magic’ button and not knowing :P
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08:48:10  <andythenorth> ugh 87 unconfirmed bugs :P
08:48:17  * andythenorth bored now
08:51:59  <gentz> Can someone test this out
08:52:00  <gentz>
08:52:07  <gentz> plz and thank you
08:52:13  <gentz> It works for me
08:57:50  <gentz> gn
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09:03:44  <blocage> peter1138, you mean yes there is a off-screen rendering ?
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09:06:24  <Wolf01> o/
09:18:39  <peter1138> it's all drawn off screen and then the updated areas are copied to the screen
09:19:10  <peter1138> it's very much old-school style
09:21:54  <LordAro> and technically not supported by sdl2
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09:22:26  <Wolf01> andythenorth: but I like FS#6114 :(
09:22:31  <peter1138> it doesn't work well with modern compositing engines either
09:22:37  <peter1138> (linux nor windows)
09:24:15  <peter1138> problem with 6114 is payments
09:25:49  <Wolf01> Problem with everything is that cargo does not carry a destination
09:26:43  <Wolf01> And all that "transfer" is bullshit, virtual payments etc
09:27:54  <andythenorth> 6114 has a patch :P
09:27:58  <andythenorth> should be applied and closed
09:29:18  <Wolf01> Last time I was about to suggest you to make FIRS dock industries to use that behaviour
09:31:13  <blocage> peter1138, oups, I ask to know if I can create an offscreen buffer where I can draw, then blit to the screen buffer
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09:39:25  <Wolf01> IMO, OTTD should work in two modes: point-to-point orders (remove transfer and unload/leave empty which makes no sense at all), cdist (which could be improved more) if you want a complex network
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09:43:55  <andythenorth> Wolf01: w.r.t docks
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09:52:21  <V453000> remove transfer and unload/leave empty which makes no sense at all <- ?
09:53:20  <Wolf01> What do you use unload for? Make your route only lose profits?
09:54:09  <V453000> whenever you want to force the train to unload if there is no industry which accepts it?
09:54:23  <V453000> it might not be the "most typical basic network" case but it definitely has many uses
09:54:54  <V453000> we use it even for standard unload stations, you want to make sure the train is unloading even if the industry died
09:55:34  <V453000> or if it stopped accepting shit due to newgrf rules etc
09:55:47  <Wolf01> Ehm, if you "unload" the cargo stays at the station even if the cargo is accepted
09:56:06  <V453000> yes
09:56:19  <V453000> but unload and leave empty makes sure the train doesn't try to pick it up?
09:56:40  <V453000> I don't see your problem with it, it clearly has uses
09:56:40  <Wolf01> Forum is full of newcomers which "I don't get paid when unloading the cargo at stations which accept it"
09:56:56  <V453000> are they transferring it or what
09:57:25  <Wolf01> No, just set up a point-to-point with load here, unload there
09:57:42  <Wolf01> I've seen manyu cases
09:57:47  <Wolf01> -u
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09:58:42  <V453000> what's the issue, how do they reach that case?
09:58:48  <V453000> if the station accepts it how do they not get paid?
09:59:18  <Wolf01> When you force unload the cargo is moved to the station even if accepted, and you don't get paid
10:00:21  <Wolf01> Sorry, maybe I used the wrong string, I don't ever use it because I find it annoyingly useless
10:00:40  <V453000> if you transfer to the station you don't get paid
10:00:45  <V453000> if you unload it works perfectly fine
10:00:55  <Wolf01> Then the behaviour changed
10:00:58  <V453000> no
10:01:17  <V453000> or at least not since like 0.7 or something when I started playing
10:01:21  <V453000> as far as I remember
10:02:00  <V453000> if you transfer, the train which delivered it will get a share on the profit once the final train delivers it ... assuming that it was transferring it to the correct direction I think
10:02:30  <V453000> so if you want to have all of your trains turn profit every year, you just use this and as long as they are "being beneficial", they will do fine
10:03:14  <Wolf01> I think it changed when the order options got split
10:03:35  <Wolf01> I'm not talking about transfer, forget transfer
10:04:26  <Wolf01> Transfer is its own bullsht too
10:11:40  <V453000> unload order always gets paid if the station accepts the cargo afaik
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10:18:51  <Wolf01> I think I last used "unload and leave empty" was on 0.4.3
10:19:20  <planetmaker> that's *a bit* ago ;)
10:19:21  <V453000> does not mean nobody else does
10:19:46  <Wolf01> Eh, never noticed it was "fixed"
10:20:18  <Wolf01> I usually forget about the second dropdown in orders
10:49:16  <Wolf01> V453000: some cosplay?
10:57:43  <_dp_> direct routes are slightly more profitable but transfer/hub ones are much faster to build
10:57:56  <_dp_> also can't do direct on both sides of 2-way route
11:03:10  <_dp_> and I've never heard of unload not pushing cargo to industry, those newcomers are either transfering or station is not accepting
11:03:49  <_dp_> or some other wierd stuff like trains picking cargo on unload station from other industry
11:04:04  <_dp_> I always have unload orders on leave empty to avoid that
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11:46:53  <Wolf01> I only use unload if accepted, that solves all the problems, if trains come back with cargo, then I assigned the wrong station or the industry closed
11:49:30  * andythenorth never uses it
11:49:49  <andythenorth> but I wish ‘no loading’ was easier to add :P
11:49:54  <andythenorth> otherwise cdist is borked
11:49:59  <Wolf01> It's the default
11:53:08  <andythenorth> nah you have to make it explicit
11:53:32  <Wolf01> Unload if accepted is the default
11:54:10  <andythenorth> yair
11:54:18  * andythenorth thought you meant ‘no loading'
11:55:02  <Wolf01> No loading is on the other dropdown
11:55:08  <andythenorth> yup
11:55:23  <Wolf01> I use that a lot, but the "unload" dropdown is dead to me
11:59:22  <Alkel_U3> I can imagine using it as sort of "if accepted: unload else: transfer" with industries that do this and have some vehicles to transport that unaccepted extra cargo elswhere
11:59:42  <Wolf01> That's cdist
12:00:21  <Wolf01> Which I only use for pax, cargo is point-to-point
12:01:20  <Alkel_U3> cd actually works correctly on destinations with variable accepted cargos? :-)
12:01:33  <andythenorth> orders :(
12:01:36  <andythenorth> such a mess
12:03:34  <Wolf01> I'm going to start a new ottd game, all other games I tried to play made me ragequit because of stupid errors I made
12:04:09  <andythenorth> I have to quit ottd games to fix newgrf things
12:04:12  <andythenorth> then I break my save
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12:19:04  <peter1138> moo
12:20:04  <andythenorth> neigh
12:20:44  <andythenorth> also
12:20:47  * andythenorth such css
12:20:59  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: have you tried Rimworld
12:21:35  <Wolf01> No
12:22:23  <Alkel_U3> I hear it's like Dwarf Fortress but darker
12:22:32  <Alkel_U3> also with actual graphics
12:23:01  <Wolf01> It costs more than €free
12:23:23  <Alkel_U3> which is the only reason I haven't played it yet :-)
12:23:33  <Wolf01> Also more than €0.35 which I have in the steam wallet
12:25:03  <andythenorth> V453000: I have bought loads of retro-synth albums
12:25:08  <Wolf01> I just tried endless sky, which seem to be a game I should like... you need to purchase the fuel to make hyperspace jumps, you have no money, you have not enough fuel to reach the next mission objective...
12:25:09  <andythenorth> getting me through a website rebuild :P
12:27:50  <Alkel_U3> I tried that game recently, seems fun
12:29:20  <V453000> XD
12:29:27  <V453000> andythenorth: will you resell them? :P
12:29:37  <andythenorth> not so much
12:29:40  <andythenorth> on itunes
12:29:49  <V453000> gg
12:29:52  <V453000> money sunk
12:32:26  <andythenorth> such uplifting chords very
12:35:07  <andythenorth> peter1138: isn’t oil-rig sharing a feature? o_O
12:35:36  <peter1138> PASS
12:35:38  <peter1138> pass, even
12:35:54  <peter1138> if it's a feature, then it's not a known-bug, surely
12:36:06  <andythenorth> can’t argue with that
12:37:57  <andythenorth> oh we have a ‘problems’ forum?
12:38:02  <andythenorth> are there > 9000?
12:41:06  <V453000> ASS
12:42:27  <andythenorth> loads of things to reply to in problems forum eh? :)
12:42:30  * andythenorth busy busy
12:53:07  <andythenorth> bored of that now :P
12:53:30  <Wolf01> Mmmh, refit to available cargo needs a kickstart or the station won't get any cargo
12:54:13  <andythenorth> yup
12:54:18  <andythenorth> you have to refit first vehicle
12:54:26  * andythenorth can’t think of a solution to that
12:54:36  <andythenorth> cycling all the refits might be…unwanted?
12:54:56  <andythenorth> ‘refit available cargo’ is mostly a bad feature
12:55:04  <andythenorth> it really should be removed IMHO
12:55:43  <andythenorth> iirc I was one of the ones who asked for it, it got added around YACD time, and made sense with YACD
12:56:14  <Wolf01> Other solution will be "station starts getting cargo when placed" like the old TTDX
12:57:33  <andythenorth> that’s….irritating
12:57:40  <Wolf01> Yes
12:57:41  <andythenorth> it causes a lot of failed ratings, no?
12:57:59  <andythenorth> fine on a 64x64 map, otherwise…shit
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13:04:59  <peter1138> herp
13:10:49  <Wolf01> I enabled cdist for cargo too on this game, and with that autorefit thing I set up a really nice service
13:13:57  <Wolf01> Meh, nearest oil field on the other side of the 2048 map
13:17:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, in citymania client you can assign modifier keys for orders including "no loading". So it like just ctrl+click when you add order.
13:17:51  <_dp_> there probably is patch for it somewhere in FS even, or on forums
13:18:20  <_dp_> it's a bit too magical for trunk though probably
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13:53:01  <V453000> hmm how do I install PIL / Pillow on windows please? :d google doesn't seem to help much
13:54:27  <ST2> 1st you need a bed - blankets not mandatory - choose 1 side and throw (just messing around, because I have no idea :)
13:55:42  <V453000> I haz it
13:55:53  <V453000> was super easy because I installed python properly this time
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14:00:33  <Wolf01> :D
14:08:43  <andythenorth> how about a dice-roll FS bot?
14:08:50  <andythenorth> once a day, it closes a task
14:08:58  <andythenorth> some tasks are just not fated to happen
14:09:59  <andythenorth> kizmet
14:11:15  <LordAro> :D
14:17:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you could write a crash-log parser?
14:17:19  <andythenorth> maybe in PHP even?
14:17:39  <Wolf01> Eh, I could with the specs
14:18:48  <andythenorth> feed it crashlogs, extract metadata from the key/value pairs
14:18:59  <andythenorth> incremement counts, and store refs to each crashlog
14:19:05  * andythenorth words
14:19:15  <andythenorth> e.g.
14:19:30  <andythenorth> Version, NewGRF ver, Bits, etc
14:19:43  <andythenorth> Blitter: etc from Configuration
14:20:16  <andythenorth> store them in a simple DB, then have html to filter / cross reference
14:20:20  <andythenorth> maybe a way to chart them
14:21:17  <Wolf01> Mmmh, ok
14:21:21  <andythenorth> eh, seems Apple, MS, etc have their own
14:21:27  <Wolf01> Could be done
14:21:27  <andythenorth>
14:21:30  <andythenorth>
14:21:59  <andythenorth> minecraft even :P
14:22:29  <andythenorth> we could scrape crash logs from FS
14:22:47  <Wolf01> It would be nice if FS allowed plugins
14:23:00  <crem> Why not google spreadsheets + lots of scripts!
14:24:23  <andythenorth> crem: where to start with ‘why not that’ :P
14:24:24  <andythenorth> ?
14:24:34  <andythenorth> I could make you a google sheet of reasons :)
14:24:41  <crem> :)
14:25:41  <crem> Where do those crash report come from? Is there some automated process to send them?
14:26:12  <Wolf01> That would be filled with andy's crash logs
14:26:47  <andythenorth> they’re user-submitted manually
14:27:01  <andythenorth> Wolf01: if they were automated, mine would not be sent
14:27:13  <andythenorth> the ‘changed newgrfs’ flag would prevent it
14:29:48  <Wolf01> BTW, which DB or noDB do you like?
14:30:36  <crem> depends, but for RDBMS it's postgres nowadays.
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14:39:21  <andythenorth> Wolf01: postgres or…sqlite?
14:39:25  <andythenorth> or MS Access :P
14:39:30  <andythenorth> not
14:39:48  <Wolf01> Postgres is ok for me, I have to install all the others
14:40:53  <peter1138> <3 postgres
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14:44:02  <LordAro>
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14:48:07  <Wolf01> Ok, I could focus on the parser, I'm too much tempted to do the DB part with Doctrine
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15:28:04  <frosch123> Wolf01: another canal mail
15:28:19  <Wolf01> Reply "yes"
15:29:59  <Wolf01> Lol, I was so used with frameworks that I forgot how to do basic stuff
15:35:35  <andythenorth> quak
15:40:23  <frosch123> hoi
15:40:37  <frosch123> either i forgot how to build ai/gs documentation, or it is broken
15:44:10  <LordAro> whynotboth.jpg
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16:05:34  <frosch123> looks like debian defaults to mawk instead of gawk
16:07:03  <andythenorth> 8 bugs a month
16:07:10  <andythenorth> bugs / new FS
16:07:19  <andythenorth> @calc 388 / 12
16:07:19  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 32.3333333333
16:07:31  <andythenorth> @calc 388 / 30
16:07:31  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 12.9333333333
16:07:37  <andythenorth> @calc 13 * 8
16:07:37  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 104
16:07:43  <andythenorth> @calc 104 / 30
16:07:43  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 3.46666666667
16:07:48  <andythenorth> regression :P
16:07:58  <andythenorth> @calc 4 * 8
16:07:58  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 32
16:08:28  <andythenorth> 19 months to zero FS, if we close 1 per day :P
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16:34:33  <_dp_> #uselessstatistics
16:36:53  <andythenorth> need a bigger hammer
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16:59:15  * Wolf01 needs a bit of regex
17:00:18  <V453000> my ass is full of regex
17:00:21  <V453000> just take
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17:10:04  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I don't know if I want to take regex from the ass of somebody :P
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17:22:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you see the official announce of the "new" lego set which costs a kidney and an eye?
17:23:06  <andythenorth> is it Star Wars?
17:23:23  <Wolf01> Yup
17:23:38  <andythenorth> so not interested :)
17:23:43  <andythenorth> I like star wars but eh
17:23:55  <Wolf01> 9 of remake
17:24:26  <andythenorth> so let’s close some FS
17:24:27  <andythenorth> that’s free
17:24:53  <andythenorth> 18 tickets ‘with patch'
17:24:54  <andythenorth>
17:25:07  <andythenorth> it’s nice having ‘patch’ ticket type and ‘with patch’
17:25:23  <andythenorth> all bug trackers suffer from taxonomy diffusion :)
17:25:50  <Wolf01> Patch is useless, patch for what, fix, feature?
17:26:01  <andythenorth> dunno :)
17:26:04  <frosch123> someone said "refactoring"
17:26:11  <frosch123> but that has become pretty rare
17:26:13  <Wolf01> My thoughts too
17:26:29  <Wolf01> Rename it to "codechange"
17:26:31  <andythenorth> there are 64 ‘patch'
17:26:48  <andythenorth> I made a nice video for this one
17:26:53  <andythenorth> worth a watch
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17:29:33  <Wolf01> Lol
17:29:37  <Wolf01> Nice
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17:29:53  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
17:29:53  <andythenorth> fireworks
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17:40:29  <LordAro> is it me, or are there no other languages other than /en ?
17:40:35  <LordAro> (on
17:41:02  <glx> nobody did it :)
17:41:16  <LordAro> i thought as much :)
17:41:33  <LordAro> afaict, only 3 strings are translatable anyway
17:41:49  <LordAro> ("Download OpenTTD", "Learn how to play", "Visit our community")
17:42:26  <andythenorth> reject? o_O
17:43:00  <andythenorth> this seems…brittle, and odd
17:43:09  <andythenorth> and likely to cause bug reports in future
17:43:12  <LordAro> andythenorth: 6534 seems fine as a newgrf feature request, imo
17:43:40  <andythenorth> maybe it needs retitled
17:43:50  <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, reject 6478
17:43:52  <andythenorth> ‘Airports: add ‘airport is closed’ var
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17:44:09  <LordAro> andythenorth: i can't see it ever being added to the base set
17:44:19  <LordAro> but i can see ogfx+airports doing it
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27909 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-08-31 19:45:38 +0200 )
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 4 changes by Absay
17:45:45  <andythenorth> yup
17:46:45  <andythenorth> I think this is nonsense, someone argue I’m wrong?
17:48:29  <Wolf01> Must to go
17:48:33  <Wolf01> BBL
17:49:54  <planetmaker> I commented, andythenorth ;)
17:50:08  <andythenorth> thanks :)
17:51:45  <andythenorth> this seems daft
17:51:51  <andythenorth> aren’t there other ways to accomplish that?
17:53:50  <adf88> BTPro servers do something like this
17:54:08  <adf88> not moving to spec
17:54:20  <adf88> but making company bancrupt
17:54:32  <adf88> not sure how they do this
17:55:28  <andythenorth> I’ve only played on servers that autopause when everyone goes to spectator
17:55:31  <andythenorth> so problem seems to be solved
17:55:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^ how does coop do it?
17:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> wrt closed airports: maybe the plane symbol in the station sign could reflect that? (mind you, i've never used this feature)
17:57:32  <andythenorth> it’s a good feature
17:57:42  <andythenorth> one of those minor additions that adds a lot
17:57:53  <andythenorth> but the airport display should just be solved in newgrf
17:58:00  <andythenorth> be a good patch for LordAro eh? o_O
17:58:08  <andythenorth> oh, but I’d have to make a test grf for it :(
17:58:10  <andythenorth> and patch nml
17:58:16  * andythenorth goes off that idea
17:58:27  <andythenorth> @summon snail
17:58:27  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
17:59:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, coop pauses server when there's less than two clients.
17:59:46  <planetmaker> in the company
18:00:01  <planetmaker> thus if there's only spectators, nothing moves
18:00:59  <andythenorth> is that a game setting?
18:01:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but there's no mechanism to move people out of the company automatically
18:01:03  <adf88>
18:01:09  <planetmaker> yes, autopause is a game setting
18:01:45  <planetmaker> what coop also does - and that's the soap (admin client) thing: move people w/o nickname set to spectator
18:01:48  <andythenorth> so where does that leave 6411?
18:01:55  <andythenorth> the game shouldn’t be growing more settings
18:02:09  <planetmaker> thus... can be closed, solvable via admin client in principle :)
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18:02:23  <andythenorth> thanks
18:02:24  <adf88> this "autoclean" mechanism
18:02:27  <planetmaker> you can monitor actions and move people to spectator, if they don't cause actions
18:02:42  <planetmaker> just I don't know any which supports that :)
18:02:52  <adf88> seems to be a good substitute
18:03:20  <planetmaker> autoclean cleans a company which is not played for some time
18:03:25  <adf88> but what actually "player activity" meany?
18:03:27  <planetmaker> longest is two years or so
18:03:27  <adf88> mean?
18:03:42  <planetmaker> adf88: autoclean works on a company w/o a connected client
18:03:46  <adf88> so no player or no actions?
18:03:56  <adf88> no players, ok
18:04:05  <planetmaker> 'no activity' is vague... and not well defined. an admin client can however monitor whether s/o does things.
18:04:07  <adf88> missed!
18:04:31  <planetmaker> so... whether a player changes something, thus 'no activity' could to some degree be defined, I guess
18:04:37  <planetmaker> not sure I would want that, though :)
18:04:48  <planetmaker> in coop we just ask people to not idle when in the company :)
18:05:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "no activity" may be tricky to detect, as there are purely client-side activities (like scrolling) that cannot be detected by the server
18:05:12  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, exactly
18:05:16  <adf88> as I mentioned before, BTPro servers do this
18:05:26  <planetmaker> I would have been kicked every time I play :)
18:05:35  <adf88> they probably have custom scripts hooked to the admin port
18:05:45  <planetmaker> they probably have a custom server :)
18:06:11  <adf88> it may be like that :)
18:06:14  <planetmaker> but I think it can be done via admin client also on default servers
18:06:17  <adf88> "activity" is defined
18:06:29  <adf88> as "executing commands"
18:06:35  *** debdog has quit IRC
18:06:37  <adf88> not executing commands - not active
18:06:42  <andythenorth> I want to tell snail this is silly :)
18:06:47  <andythenorth> but he’s not here
18:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that bad
18:08:18  <andythenorth> lots of things aren’t
18:08:30  <andythenorth> it would be an intereresting gameplay quirk for a few games
18:08:36  <andythenorth> then the novelty would wear off fast
18:08:45  <andythenorth> snail would add a newgrf setting to disable it
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18:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it could use some more refinement, like stations that have refuelling equipment, but at those stations the stop takes longer.
18:09:11  <andythenorth> and meanwhile $someone has to spec it, write it, have a newgrf test case, update nml, and wiki
18:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but that quickly gets out of hand :p
18:09:32  <andythenorth> then we have to consider performance, and vehicles that might go so far they overflow the count
18:09:50  <andythenorth> and trains with 512 engines in, and every single vehicle is counting distance
18:10:03  <andythenorth> stuff :)
18:10:08  <Eddi|zuHause> surely this is only calculated for the front engine
18:10:20  <andythenorth> dunno, write a spec, put it on the ticket? o_O
18:10:31  <andythenorth> I’ll happily leave it open if there’s interesrt
18:10:41  <andythenorth> otherwise it’s just kibble
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18:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> surely, this is like 10loc
18:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> need to add member to train struct, code to increment in movement controller, code to reset in stations/depots and export to newgrf
18:12:59  <andythenorth> stations OR depots XOR stations XOR depots?
18:13:12  <andythenorth> can it be reset by waypoints?
18:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:13:22  <andythenorth> maybe if the waypoint has a special flag?
18:13:37  <andythenorth> the last one I am just being a jackass
18:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, use station with "no loading and no unloading"
18:13:43  <andythenorth> the others were serious q.s
18:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> your OR/XOR question is not well-defined
18:14:15  <andythenorth> I know :)
18:14:17  <andythenorth> my logic is poor
18:14:29  <andythenorth> your last commit looks around 2013 or so Eddi :)
18:14:37  <andythenorth> time to dust off the keyboard? o_O
18:14:59  <adf88> andythenorth: I'll be taking care of my FS tickets in near feature, you don't have to focus on them
18:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> not today
18:15:12  <andythenorth> adf88: thanks, I’ll exclude them from my query
18:15:17  <andythenorth> oh I can’t :P
18:15:19  <adf88> sure
18:15:19  <andythenorth> bloody FS
18:15:27  <andythenorth> it’s quite…crude
18:20:49  <andythenorth> this looks crap
18:20:50  <andythenorth> closing
18:21:35  <frosch123> it's for phones :)
18:24:23  <andythenorth> it’s ugh
18:24:34  <andythenorth> I use 2x UI zoom on HDPI screen
18:24:41  <andythenorth> I don’t want to look at crappy bevels
18:24:48  <andythenorth> 1989 can have them back
18:26:02  <Alkel_U3> so, will there be rework openttd gui to Material Dsign? :-)
18:26:19  <andythenorth> that would be….work
18:26:38  <andythenorth> ok, I’ve been polite about a lot of FS requests
18:26:43  <andythenorth> but this is dumb as
18:26:54  <andythenorth> (the first bullet, not the second)
18:27:04  <andythenorth> wtf is the point of buying a station?
18:32:37  <frosch123> infrasharing with fees
18:33:06  <frosch123> no idea whether the current version of infrasharing includes fees
18:33:29  <andythenorth> I’ve scrapped it
18:33:42  <andythenorth> linked it to infra sharing thread
18:33:57  <andythenorth> who uses timetables?
18:34:06  <andythenorth> I don’t except for station waiting
18:34:07  <andythenorth>
18:34:12  <andythenorth> ^ what is that asking for?
18:34:32  <andythenorth> in a timetable I see “Travel (not timetabled)"
18:41:33  <_dp_> something about timetables, who cares :p
18:42:20  <_dp_> #notimetables
18:45:16  <andythenorth> closing
18:47:08  <andythenorth> afaict, Rubidium has said 'no'
18:47:13  <andythenorth> so this is closeable
18:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the request is valid
18:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i just don't see a way to implement it
18:51:43  <andythenorth> Not a Current Goal
18:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think messing with the crossing/signal startup code is the right approach
18:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it needs a new "leave depot after <time> feature
18:52:35  <_dp_> oh, so exiting depot is a signal code?
18:52:58  <_dp_> now I get why it's so hard to fix
18:53:40  <andythenorth> maybe we need to get more comfortable about saying no to excess complexity :)
18:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's the same code at work. the movement code loops through all vehicles, and whoever is the first to move wins
18:54:18  <Rubidium> it's dead easy to fix... just sort all vehicles by their lateness every cycle
18:54:27  <andythenorth> :o
18:54:30  <andythenorth> Rubidium arrived :)
18:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but do fresh vehicles with a new startdate even have a lateness?
18:56:41  <Rubidium> I guess it's not that hard to add such a thing (negative lateness)
18:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think the lateness is set on arrival at the first station
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19:03:09  <andythenorth> close? planetmaker provides a workaround
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19:05:59  <_dp_> there is probably some way to do it with unix magic too :)
19:06:19  <_dp_>
19:07:29  <_dp_> that bug makes sense though, why don't it just print timestamp instead of requiring stupid workarounds
19:07:30  <andythenorth> is the dedicated server always logged through a unix pipe? o_O
19:08:10  * _dp_ never checked ttd server log for anything but crashes
19:08:29  <LordAro> hmm
19:08:45  <LordAro> the website's concept of "WEBTRANSLATOR" isn't eints, is it?
19:09:00  <LordAro> there seems to be no trace of it in the website code
19:09:27  <frosch123> no, it's wt3
19:09:30  <_dp_> have 5Gb of logs though, so it's never too late to check them xD
19:09:32  <frosch123> which was never publically released
19:09:38  <LordAro> frosch123: hee
19:09:58  * LordAro strips it out for now
19:10:55  <andythenorth> eh?
19:11:00  <andythenorth> that’s just “no"
19:11:27  <frosch123> hmm, if root login via ssh is forbidden, how to i scp a file from /root ?
19:11:37  <andythenorth> why do we even have plane speed? :(
19:13:21  * frosch123 enabled root login :p
19:13:50  <_dp_> 5843 is a nice setting to have but probably somewhere in a very very hidden place
19:14:01  <LordAro> frosch123: ;-;
19:14:06  <LordAro> you move it :p
19:14:16  <_dp_> andythenorth, coz planes op
19:14:22  <frosch123> LordAro: i only know how to run docker as root
19:14:31  <LordAro> ick
19:16:19  <andythenorth> crippling the plane speed in newgrf would be unacceptable I guess :P
19:16:43  <_dp_> probably most useful case for 5843 is to get them balanced between different newgrfs that were never meant to work together
19:17:00  <_dp_> or just do some crazy stuff xD
19:17:10  <andythenorth> just re-compile the newgrfs :P
19:17:18  <andythenorth> or write a better one
19:17:26  <andythenorth> all newgrfs are crap anyway
19:17:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, one and only try megagrf
19:18:01  <_dp_> andythenorth, or, no, wait, one for each server :p
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19:24:16  <andythenorth> I should build my web-based newgrf maker :P
19:24:21  <andythenorth> but eh…why?
19:25:18  <_dp_> hm... allow to embed newgrfs in savegame... that might be an easy way to overcome configuration-in-newgrf problem
19:25:22  <Rubidium> andythenorth: not because planetmaker provides a work around, but because it's a duplicate of FS#2339
19:25:46  <Rubidium> andythenorth: that's about about FS#5903
19:25:49  <andythenorth> so it’s implemented?
19:25:51  <_dp_> they'll have to be more capable of modifying stuff in other grfs to be really useful though
19:26:24  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yep
19:26:28  <andythenorth> why is raised in 2014 if it’s provided in 2008
19:26:34  <andythenorth> seems daft
19:27:04  <_dp_> haha, it really is (timestamps)
19:28:22  <_dp_> logger: [2017-07-30 06:09:35] dbg: [net] Closed client connection 2
19:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause>  <frosch123> hmm, if root login via ssh is forbidden, how to i scp a file from /root ? <- can't you normal-login and su?
19:32:34  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how you'd scp from within an ssh session, though
19:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it feels like that should be possible
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19:37:40  <_dp_> hmm, something's wrong, if I just start vanilla ttd server I get no timestamps %)
19:38:22  <peter1138> cp file from /root to ~, then sftp from ~
19:39:25  <andythenorth> doesn’t pressing ‘del’ solve this?
19:40:33  <_dp_> andythenorth, don't they appear one by one?
19:40:50  <Alkel_U3> something like "ssh sshhost 'sudo cat /root/file' > localfile" should work, assuming paswordless sudo.
19:41:58  <andythenorth> _dp_: now I have to fricking test it in the game eh :P
19:42:05  <Alkel_U3> it probably has a nicer solution, though :-)
19:43:42  <Alkel_U3> andythenorth: you would 'solve' this by holding down spacebar but than you might also lose other kind of messages
19:44:05  <Alkel_U3> s/messages/news and notifications/
19:44:28  <andythenorth> eh, they self-close in my test
19:44:46  <andythenorth> cba to understand what this is
19:45:48  <andythenorth> can anyone add a screenshot to the task explaining it?
19:45:59  <_dp_> andythenorth, I got it, there is show_date_in_logs setting
19:46:07  <andythenorth> otherwise…closing 5757
19:46:10  <andythenorth> don’t understand it
19:46:25  <andythenorth> _dp_: I’ll add comment to ticket thanks :)
19:47:32  <_dp_> andythenorth, probably he wants to delete all queued messages so they never even show
19:47:39  <andythenorth> makes no sense to me
19:47:46  <_dp_> andythenorth, also there might be some message settings in play too
19:47:46  <andythenorth> faff
19:49:45  <andythenorth> I think this would look bad on minimap
19:50:21  <andythenorth> want to close
19:50:31  <_dp_> hmm.. does in really keep authority rating from SE?
19:51:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, 5710 aggreed, ugly and useless on minimap
19:51:20  <_dp_> andythenorth, but somewhat useful as zoning
19:51:22  <andythenorth> valid in game somehow
19:51:28  <andythenorth> visual overlay :P
19:51:40  <andythenorth> we lack nice tile-based overlays :)
19:51:44  <andythenorth> they would be…neat
19:51:48  <_dp_> definitely
19:51:53  <andythenorth> town zones
19:51:53  <_dp_> missing them so much too
19:51:56  <andythenorth> cargo acceptance
19:51:58  <andythenorth> cargo production
19:52:14  <andythenorth> health of local economy, using NoEconomy byte on tile :P
19:52:21  <_dp_> andythenorth, anything from zoning patch and much more :p
19:52:35  <_dp_> zoning is basically overlays, just done in a bad way
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19:53:22  <_dp_> I even have overlay for industries where they can be placed
19:53:32  <_dp_> quite useful on ecs for example
19:53:37  <_dp_> lags like crazy tho
19:53:57  <frosch123> _dp_: if it does, then for company 1 :p
19:54:23  <frosch123> (wrt. scenario editor town rating)
19:55:34  * andythenorth aiming for 350 FS before bed
19:56:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: peter1138 said this can’t be closed just by putting it in known_bugs :x :P
19:56:26  <andythenorth>
19:56:36  <andythenorth> I think it can be closed as 'feature'
19:56:53  <peter1138> feel free to ignore me
19:56:56  <peter1138> just feels weird
19:57:11  <andythenorth> it’s nice to have contrasting opinions eh
19:57:26  <frosch123> we use known_bugs to document limitations
19:57:42  <frosch123> it fits well with the other issues listed there
19:57:47  <andythenorth> implement
19:57:56  <andythenorth> and don’t use the oil rig station if you don’t want to share
19:58:03  <andythenorth> or raise land and build a dock
19:58:18  <_dp_> sharing via neutral station is ok for "feature" but it kind of breaks cargodist if I understand that bug correctly
19:58:26  <andythenorth> [shrug]
19:58:35  <andythenorth> life is not a tidy maths problem
19:58:38  <andythenorth> nor is games
20:02:21  <andythenorth> Close - pony too far?
20:03:53  <_dp_> > as well as the desperation of needing a better aircraft, and anxiously awaiting the announcements to see whether one becomes available.
20:04:15  <_dp_> o rly
20:05:03  <andythenorth> can’t see how it can be done tbh
20:05:18  <andythenorth> unless newgrfs are only added after the game settings are configured and the map is generated
20:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: cargodist is fine with shared stations. just payment is terrible, also, cargodist will try to route EVERYTHING through that one link
20:05:39  <andythenorth> adding newgrf after map gen is…total bollocks
20:05:43  <andythenorth> so eh, no
20:05:55  <andythenorth> static info provided by newgrf about each item: maybe
20:06:28  <andythenorth> or authors can use the ‘url to project site’ function the way it was intended
20:06:35  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, as it looks to me your sentence contradicts itself :p
20:06:45  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how's it fine if it routes everything there
20:07:15  * _dp_ never played cargodist
20:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: not everything everything, just a lot of stuff, because it's the only link connecting two large networks
20:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> probably with poor connectivity
20:08:04  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, %)
20:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> if you connect two large networks, basically immediately half the cargo that used to be routed internally will now try to go through that link (and back)
20:09:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: you commented here w.r.t grtopia - was the intent that authors provide static info per item?  Or run each newgrf in a sandbox and extract info automatically?  Or something else?
20:09:12  <andythenorth> grftopia *
20:09:42  <andythenorth> _dp_: just use point-to-point only with cdist :)
20:10:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: run grf in sandbox, check what items it adds, including intro dates for vehicles
20:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: grftopia was meant to provide a sandbox for newgrf-initialization while the title game is still running
20:10:55  <andythenorth> I’ll leave it open
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20:11:09  <andythenorth> I think it would be nice, but generate a lot of bug reports from newgrf authors
20:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then it would be easy to check whether there are vehicles available at the selected start date. and stuff...
20:11:29  <_dp_> I've no idea how newgrfs works but having to run it just to see what vehicle it provides sounds terribly wrong :/
20:11:50  <andythenorth> it would have to wait for the full combination of grfs to be determined
20:11:56  <andythenorth> then generate a manifest?
20:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: how else would you determine it? what is actually provided may depend on game settings, grf parameters, other grfs loaded, ...
20:13:27  <andythenorth> and we might let GS loose on the grfs in future :P
20:13:53  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, just show what's in current grf and not worry about game stuff?
20:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: like a train grf may omit wagons if they carry no cargo (i.e. no industry set provides this cargo)
20:14:01  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's grf viewer, not game configuration viewer
20:14:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: see, we are moving towards new compile farm, then we can move towards c++11, then we can move towards thread_local, then we can run newgrf in threads :p
20:14:07  <andythenorth> ha
20:14:18  <andythenorth> _dp_: grfs depend on grfs
20:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: how about easter egg vehicles that the grf author wants to hide from that list?
20:15:18  <andythenorth> what about needing railtypes for the vehicles
20:15:25  <andythenorth> and needing vehicles for the railtypes to appear
20:15:27  <andythenorth> lawks
20:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and again, a train wagon viewer would be incomplete if it didn't show which cargos the train wagon could load. but you can't know the cargos it could load if you didn't specify an industry set
20:17:14  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, that sounds like a very weird case. isn't vehicle list easily accessible in game anyway (just cheat to future)?
20:17:30  <andythenorth> toolbar is fine, don’t re-order :)
20:17:36  <andythenorth> ain’t broken
20:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: no, some vehicles are never available.
20:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: other vehicles change shape/look/stats depending on which engine they are attached to
20:18:12  <andythenorth> some of this is due to some very poor choices
20:18:14  <andythenorth> in hindsight
20:18:25  <andythenorth> great choices at the time :P
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20:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and some vehicle stats may depend on parameters. you can't determine them if you don't properly load the grf
20:19:53  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you seem to be overthinking it, just show something, doesn't have to solve all the ambiguities
20:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: because someone invented action6/7/9/D
20:20:52  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeye and some stuff is stored in savegame and there is no guarantee that it's not modified after newgrf init :p
20:20:53  <andythenorth> authors will report that we have introduced a flawed feature
20:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: you seem to be underthinking it. what you propose is probably very useless
20:21:19  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, possibly, at least I definitely have no use for it xD
20:21:29  <_dp_> if I want list of vehicles I know where to find it
20:21:53  <andythenorth> I have a list of 29 FS requests from george, which he has, completely politely, described as ‘required'
20:22:19  <andythenorth> many of these relate to dynamic vehicle behaviour depending on consist, age, game date, cargo refit etc
20:23:05  <andythenorth> any newgrf viewer is going to spawn a bunch more feature requests or bug reports from (guessing here, not slandering anyone) george, michael, snail et al
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20:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: if you went through the grf, and showed a sprite for every action 3 (which sprite? purchase window? you can't really determine that without "loading" the grf), you immediately get requests to show articulated vehicles properly
20:23:27  <peter1138> do they still try to make stuff compatible with ttdpatch?
20:23:32  <andythenorth> somewhere peter1138 put a proposal for a static image per vehicle
20:23:42  <andythenorth> peter1138: no I think most gave that up
20:24:08  <andythenorth> afaict
20:24:13  <peter1138> cos with the amount of engine slots in ottd a lot of dynamic stuff isn't necessary
20:24:28  <y2000rtc> Hi there, question. Do you know if someone will release next version of OpenTTD?
20:24:38  <peter1138> engine grouping maybe :p
20:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> someone might release a next version
20:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but we never know until someone does
20:26:15  <andythenorth> y2000rtc what version do you have currently?
20:26:15  <_dp_> it might even be in April :p
20:26:41  <y2000rtc> 1.7.1
20:26:55  <andythenorth> ok you’re all up to date :)
20:26:57  <andythenorth> congrats
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20:28:17  <andythenorth> there are changes since 1.7.1
20:28:25  <andythenorth> they usually get released April 1 or so
20:29:10  <y2000rtc> I want to start with adjusting of grf files for graphics of rails and trains (engines, vagons). But how to start with that? Is here anyone who still remember his start with grf? :D I would like to understand which tools to use for that, how,... Any ideas, links? I don't want to wadte your time. Only need to have direction.
20:29:15  *** Progman has quit IRC
20:30:16  <_dp_> I remember it being pretty straightforward
20:30:23  <Alkel_U3> this is probably a suitable entry point
20:31:59  <andythenorth> also
20:32:08  <Alkel_U3> oh wait, did you say adjusting? That would be the wrong link, then
20:33:00  <y2000rtc> I already used this portal and I have to say that is not so easy for to understand. I will check right now if any news were grow up. Short quedtion. I would like to change only rail#, I would like to use rails with different speed (exist) but with the same graphics (slowest one - old school of TTD) Any ideas how to do it?
20:33:30  <andythenorth> you need a railtypes grf
20:33:45  <andythenorth> there is an example one in the nml examples somewhere :P
20:34:21  <planetmaker> swedischrails basically is an example
20:34:38  <planetmaker> it was the prototype for both, nml and railtypes :)
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20:40:04  <andythenorth> ach, wtf are userbits? o_O
20:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> don't close that
20:41:40  <andythenorth> I’m not
20:41:45  <andythenorth> trying to understand what it is
20:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically, every vehicle has a user (as in grf-author) defined bitfield, but you can only acces an ORed version of that over all vehicles in the train, not an individual vehicle
20:41:58  <andythenorth> where are the docs for this?
20:42:11  <andythenorth> I remember reading about user bits a long time ago, but they’re not useful
20:42:14  <andythenorth> now I can’t find the docs
20:42:45  <andythenorth> train prop 25?
20:43:50  <andythenorth> accessed via var 42
20:43:54  <andythenorth> what’s the purpose?
20:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably it
20:44:21  <andythenorth> what possible use is it? :)
20:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: say you have dining cars, with this you can check whether the train has one dining car in it
20:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> every dining car would set bit X in this property
20:45:09  <andythenorth> without having to query every vehicle in consist?
20:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and if var 42 has bit X set, you have a dining car in the train
20:45:40  <andythenorth> remind me of that when I code dining cars
20:46:02  <andythenorth> I was going to just use var 60, like a simple person
20:46:06  <andythenorth>
20:47:04  <andythenorth> so the benefit there is the OR
20:47:15  <andythenorth> why throw that all away with FS 5460?
20:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you could do that, but you have to hard-code each vehicle-ID of a dining car
20:47:28  <andythenorth> that’s trivial
20:47:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if you wanted dining cars in different generations and stuff
20:47:33  <andythenorth> the compile does it
20:47:40  <andythenorth> people should get a better compiler tbh
20:47:47  <andythenorth> instead of distorting the game
20:48:04  <andythenorth> anyway, why does snail want to throw away the useful part, and check it per vehicle?
20:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> still, this would involve looping over the train multiple times
20:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't remember what snail wanted this for (we probably discussed it), but say you wanted to check whether the last wagon is a caboose...
20:49:22  <andythenorth> check the ID of the last vehicle
20:49:38  <andythenorth> stop adding metadata, just use data
20:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember something about heating systems, but that might have been george
20:49:58  <y2000rtc> Thanks to all, I'm going to go study your links. :D See you
20:50:00  <andythenorth> I’ll ask snail directly, instead of guessing :)
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20:51:10  <andythenorth> snail has mail :P
20:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: again like with the previous example, that may be lots of IDs
20:52:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: when i told you about newgrf functors the other day, i was refering to that task
20:52:18  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of one easily defined bit
20:52:57  <andythenorth> yup, I’ve mailed snail
20:53:01  <andythenorth> it’s open
20:53:11  <andythenorth> the armchair spec for OpenTTD is glorious eh
20:53:25  <andythenorth> think of the beautiful things we’ll be able to build
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20:58:22  <milek7> huh? openttd spec is nice
20:58:28  <milek7> well documented
20:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: i think with "armchair specs" he means stuff that is suggested but not implemented
20:59:27  <andythenorth> he does
20:59:39  <andythenorth> all it takes is finding people who want to code it
20:59:45  <andythenorth> funny that I got all my ponies
20:59:48  <andythenorth> but others don’t
20:59:52  <andythenorth> why is that then? :P
21:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you're more annoying than them :p
21:01:58  <andythenorth> I think you wanted ‘relentless’ :P
21:02:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: i wouldn't agree to all random newgrf vars which are requested
21:03:07  <frosch123> 80% of industry and house vars are completely useless
21:03:31  <frosch123> newgrf features should solve more than one ad-hoc problem
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21:05:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: feel free to close some :)
21:06:20  <andythenorth> I am going to close this for foobar
21:06:29  <frosch123> that's my point... there is no yes/no to those requests
21:06:29  *** APTX has joined #openttd
21:06:43  <frosch123> the correct answer is "different"
21:07:07  <frosch123> collect all vehicle related requests, and make a shared solution
21:07:08  <andythenorth> I try to group related requests and rewrite, iff I can see a pattern
21:07:17  <frosch123> each suggestion on its own is crap
21:08:03  <andythenorth> the more actual crap I close, the more patterns are visible in what’s left
21:08:05  <frosch123> that's why i hate requests like "i need a flag here", because it does not tell you the real intention
21:08:14  <andythenorth> there’s a lot of ‘speak your brains’ in FS, or was :P
21:08:35  <frosch123> it's the product of already abusing 3 other weird vars and trying to squeeze in some even more weird one
21:08:49  <andythenorth> :P
21:08:59  <andythenorth> I would file most of them under ‘design your set better'
21:09:09  <andythenorth> meanwhile, what’s the status on this
21:09:26  <andythenorth> that’s what I ran into earlier this year with FIRS?
21:09:48  <andythenorth> [all solved now]
21:12:16  <frosch123> D0xx and DCxx string are all the same, except where they are the direct callback return value
21:12:35  <frosch123> i have no idea whether that task still applies
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21:13:08  <andythenorth> I am not inclined to test it :P
21:13:17  <andythenorth> george thinks it’s a non-issue now
21:13:38  <frosch123> oh, wait, i remember something
21:14:03  <frosch123> there is some other fs task where i attached a hacky fix
21:15:45  <andythenorth> errr…
21:15:52  <andythenorth> so…I can do simple maths in my head
21:15:55  <andythenorth> or in a calculator
21:15:56  <andythenorth> so no
21:16:11  <andythenorth> also…scripts supersede that completely
21:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, industries show %, why shouldn't towns?
21:17:37  <frosch123> i found the diff, but i think it was a case of andy-too-lazy-to-create-fs-task
21:17:38  <andythenorth> because not needed?
21:18:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: is relevant to attach to 4758?
21:18:13  <andythenorth> or I create a new one
21:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also why should i calculate in my head if the computer does it way better/faster?
21:18:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: got a patch? o_O
21:18:58  <frosch123> <- that's the only thing i can think of in context of FS#4758
21:19:03  <_dp_> 4508 looks like a job for GS
21:19:05  <andythenorth> I am hovering over the ‘reopen’ button Eddi|zuHause :)
21:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: patch? me? gui stuff? have you learned nothing? :p
21:19:49  <andythenorth> industry % is a legacy of the default industry growth mechanic
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21:20:20  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’d have to search logs to find out what our purpose was there :P
21:20:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi is already busy with not doing something in case he discovers something about nekomaster
21:20:38  <andythenorth> cryptic :P
21:21:19  <andythenorth> 367 left :)
21:21:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: the diff is from 2016-12-22 :)
21:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i already forgot i didn't want to do anything about nekomaster
21:21:30  <andythenorth> 1 for each day of the year
21:21:36  <andythenorth> 2 on christmas, 2 on easter
21:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting old...
21:21:40  <frosch123> i think it was about cargo amounts
21:21:50  <andythenorth> I wanted to show them in industry window cb
21:21:54  <andythenorth> but you found a better way
21:22:02  <andythenorth> and I think it didn’t work anyway
21:22:12  <andythenorth> or I ran out of stack
21:22:15  <andythenorth> something like that
21:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "stack" is a serious misnomer there
21:23:04  <andythenorth> this is…interesting
21:23:12  <andythenorth> bridges I have never made newgrf of
21:23:21  <andythenorth> if I did, it would be a wonderful newgrf
21:23:24  <andythenorth> really something very special
21:23:31  <andythenorth> I’d have the best people work on it
21:25:01  <frosch123> eddi?
21:25:32  <andythenorth> why not
21:25:55  <andythenorth> <- the suggestion is not likely to be a winning one?
21:26:01  <andythenorth> other routes seem to be preferred
21:29:31  <frosch123> i would like a heightmap preview with some sliders to define a curve for greyscale->height translation
21:29:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem there, anyway? just run the mapgen and convert it to heightmap?
21:29:56  <frosch123> the preview should also contain highlight in places where the slope is too steep
21:30:12  <frosch123> (more than 1 height difference between tiles)
21:30:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: he wants a faster game start
21:30:52  <andythenorth> he/she, non-obvious gender
21:30:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: in other words, it's the thing i always mention when someone talks about redesigning the mapgen gui :p
21:31:08  <Eddi|zuHause> paint the normal heightmap in shades of green, and the error bits in shades of red?
21:31:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "they"
21:31:21  <frosch123> something like that
21:31:40  <frosch123> but it would require loading of heightmaps with something not as bad as _switch_mode
21:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why people make the language about gender-neutral pronouns so complicated
21:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: heightmaptopia?
21:35:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it easier in german?
21:36:04  <frosch123> haha, no :p
21:36:05  <andythenorth> we get very confused about it in UK english
21:36:21  <frosch123> english has it easier by two magnitudes
21:36:34  <frosch123> at least your job descriptions are neutral
21:37:50  <andythenorth> somewhat
21:37:53  <andythenorth> policeman
21:37:57  <andythenorth> male nurse
21:38:05  <frosch123> though the admin at work figured out a gender-neutral method by abbreviating words
21:38:05  <andythenorth> headmistress
21:38:08  <andythenorth> binman
21:40:08  <frosch123> instead of "dear coworkersladies and coworkermen", he just writes "dear cowo."
21:40:10  <andythenorth>
21:40:12  <andythenorth> ^ why?
21:40:38  <andythenorth> can already change 0D
21:40:44  <andythenorth> why bother with 0E as well?
21:40:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: exactly :) it's a work around for not being able to return 32bits in some other callback"
21:40:56  <andythenorth> closing that
21:41:20  <frosch123> it's "i do not have enough bits here, let's add some over there instead"
21:41:29  <andythenorth> yeah no
21:41:51  <andythenorth> running costs, broadly, don’t need to change, ever per vehicle instance
21:41:55  <andythenorth> it’s a bad idea
21:50:22  <V453000> cowoslugs?
21:50:34  <andythenorth> always
21:50:41  <andythenorth> ok christmas is cancelled
21:50:43  <V453000> slugnurses?
21:50:48  <andythenorth> only 364 FS left
21:50:51  <andythenorth> no christmas
21:50:52  <andythenorth> no ponies
21:51:54  <frosch123> V453000: "snail" is actually a slang term for a hot lady
21:52:02  <frosch123> in german
21:52:14  <frosch123> noone dares to use "slug" in that context :p
21:52:19  <V453000> that's not even surprising for germans XD
21:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> at least your job descriptions are neutral <-- i always find it funny how english is much more gender-neutral than german, but they have the exact same discussions about not being gender-neutral
21:52:55  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps the germans just gave up :p
21:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> seems to me like the perfect reason why the language being gender-neutral has no effect on gender equality whatsoever
21:55:59  <andythenorth> so the heightmap preview was non-close? o_O
21:56:03  <andythenorth> valid?
21:56:49  <frosch123> yep, if i would care about votes, it would be one of the tasks i would vote for :p
21:57:33  <andythenorth> I would sooner fix the map gen, but eh :)
21:57:51  <frosch123> i consider the preview a prerequisite for that
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21:58:15  <andythenorth> plausible
21:59:09  <_dp_> can nicely server as water borders preview as well
21:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you forgot that "cow" is also a slang term for a ... lady :p
22:00:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: horse, mare, stallion all have meanings, but different
22:02:38  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: anyway, "ox" is used the same way as "cow"; but the gender-neutral "snail" is only used for women
22:03:24  <andythenorth>
22:03:32  * _dp_ read "osx" at first
22:05:10  <andythenorth> such bed time
22:05:17  <andythenorth> nobody open any FS overnight :P
22:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm not sure how genders work with snails
22:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, snails are female in german :p
22:06:04  <andythenorth> aren’t snails hermaphrodites?
22:08:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i have no idea why some animals have neutral and gender-specific terms, while other animals only have one term
22:08:11  <frosch123> maybe it's about domestic animals
22:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of wild animals have gender-specific terms
22:09:55  <andythenorth> bye
22:09:56  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:10:11  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: hedgehogs do not
22:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but deer
22:11:27  <frosch123> well, stags are dangeour
22:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe gender is just less obvious for hedgehogs
22:15:13  <frosch123> it's pretty obvious for lions
22:15:30  <frosch123> yet you do not use the male cat term
22:17:00  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
22:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there's still a female term
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22:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> also, old germans (as in > 2000 years ago) probably didn't encounter lots of lions
22:28:00  <frosch123> ducks may be the solution
22:28:18  <planetmaker> Ente, Enterich?
22:28:32  <frosch123> we should just apply the duck-approach of using the postfix for the male term
22:28:39  <frosch123> planetmaker: putze, putzerich :p
22:28:45  <planetmaker> :D
22:28:57  <planetmaker> der/die/das Putze :P
22:29:35  <frosch123> i always wondered about hebammerich
22:29:51  <frosch123> are there any males doing that job?
22:31:45  <frosch123> anyway, i wrote the dockerfiles for source and documentation bundles, and for the generic linux binary
22:31:53  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
22:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> duckerichfiles?
22:32:29  <frosch123> let's hope that the win part was magically already finished
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22:32:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: rich text format
22:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> is this the word association game now? :p
22:33:37  <frosch123> sounds appropiate for 0:33
22:45:04  <planetmaker> I think there's no male word for Hebamme
22:45:09  <planetmaker> Also not for Amme
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23:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like there probably was one, but it's fallen into disuse over the centuries
23:01:44  <frosch123> in the original meaning, i doubt there was one :p
23:02:24  <frosch123> like godfather is the closest match
23:02:58  <frosch123> +ly
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23:19:59  <Wolf01> Nice, this lightning strike was close
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23:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to unplugging all devices during thunderstorms?
23:33:46  <Wolf01> Lol
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23:36:29  <Wolf01> Since it's already finished (about 5 minutes) it's more the time I take to shutdown and unplug everything than the thunderstorm duration, and I choose to take a risk
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23:42:01  <Wolf01> BTW I estimate the risk by looking at, if it seem too bad I'll take time to unplug my stuff

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