Log for #openttd on 2nd September 2017:
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03:07:53  <nekomaster> So i'm having a bit of an issue with a new project I'm working on
03:08:14  <nekomaster> RAIL type vehicles only appear when I have a Trackset loaded
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05:49:38  <andythenorth> o/
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06:44:02  <LordAro> o/
06:52:00  <andythenorth> moin
07:01:06  <Alberth> o/
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07:05:28  <andythenorth> @summon Wolf01
07:05:28  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
07:09:47  <Alberth> wait a few hours :p
07:11:36  <andythenorth> what does it even mean? o_O
07:14:06  <LordAro> just a refactot
07:14:19  <LordAro> probably harmless, if a bit redundant
07:14:22  <andythenorth> good, or reject?
07:15:13  <LordAro> that decision needs a dev :p
07:21:35  * andythenorth wasn’t aware GS couldn’t already do this :)
07:21:39  <andythenorth> _dp_: ^ tested it
07:25:07  <andythenorth> nah
07:25:28  <andythenorth> big UI change, based on a thread with no clear outcome
07:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out
07:28:52  <andythenorth> I’ll rephrase
07:28:56  <andythenorth> I’m not testing that :P
07:29:19  <andythenorth> I’ve hit the end of easily-rejected FS
07:29:52  <andythenorth> I’m working down the list of 64 FS categorised as patch
07:30:04  <andythenorth> seeing if they are testable by me
07:30:23  <andythenorth> common problems with testing:
07:30:44  <andythenorth> - not clear what the intended change would be, so no criteria to test
07:31:11  <andythenorth> - hg patch queues (I refuse, $someone else can do those)
07:31:47  <andythenorth> - codechanges/refactoring with no obvious gameplay result to test
07:32:18  <andythenorth> - patches don’t apply on repo tip I’m using for testing
07:32:39  <andythenorth> - patches are for an OS I don’t have
07:34:28  <LordAro> that's funny because the patch queues are the ones more likely to be accepted :p
07:34:41  <andythenorth> is that historically true?
07:34:47  <andythenorth> I haven’t been through closed patches
07:35:18  <LordAro> i've no idea, but devs very much prefer the smaller individual changes over the large single patch
07:36:16  <andythenorth> presumably I can apply them in git, I just have to read the revs to get them in the right order?
07:36:26  <andythenorth> or are they order-independent?
07:36:42  <LordAro> hopefully the files are prefixed by numbers
07:36:50  <LordAro> so it's obvious which order they are in
07:37:01  <LordAro> `git am` *might* be able to apply them
07:37:22  <LordAro> i did that with ic's improved timetables, but it required some manual steps
07:37:47  <andythenorth>
07:37:53  <andythenorth> presumably 00 is applied, then 01?
07:37:57  <LordAro> yeah
07:38:00  <andythenorth> anything else would seem daft
07:38:05  <LordAro> :p
07:41:22  <andythenorth> seems to be a lot of stuff around filtering
07:41:33  <andythenorth> filter news, filter stations, filter vehicles, filter industry
07:41:43  <andythenorth> e.g.
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07:45:52  <Alberth> 5695 (Patch to make filter_funcs members of BuildVehicleWindow   )     doesn't look terribly interesting
07:46:01  <Alberth> just move some code in the same file
07:46:49  <andythenorth> basically a no-op?
07:47:09  <Alberth> it's now a function in the file, it becomes a function of that class
07:47:26  <andythenorth> at work, we effectively ban changes like that
07:47:27  <Alberth> but we have static filter functions all over the place
07:47:36  <andythenorth> it’s cost to QA
07:47:39  <andythenorth> for no customer benefit
07:47:43  <Alberth> and many of them are shared
07:47:52  <andythenorth> tends to originate with less experienced engineers
07:47:55  <andythenorth> looks harmless
07:48:03  <andythenorth> but sometimes has unintended consequences which show up later
07:48:13  <Alberth> by "hiding" them in the class, you reduce the chance that it will be found for re-use
07:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be useful if we were to move towards some cleaner object-oriented model. but just randomly moving it without following such a larger architectural goal is probably useless
07:49:09  <Alberth> I am not even sure you can make a clean OO model for this
07:49:23  <Alberth> sharing stuff isn't a storing point in OO :p
07:49:44  <Alberth> *strong
07:50:43  <Alberth> 6381 (SetRating) is not implemented currently, and I am very doubtful it should be
07:51:31  <Alberth> ie the first thing that happens is that some one will write "outstandingGS" that pushes all cities to outstanding rating no matter what you do
07:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that a bad thing?
07:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> people request that all the time
07:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and the answer is always "use magic bulldozer", which does a bit too much
07:53:01  <Alberth> let's just have a completely flat world without any obstacle
07:53:25  <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game
07:53:35  <Alberth> just like signals on bridges
07:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so? lots of other obstacles left
07:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> people can (and do) already create completely flat maps
07:54:01  <Eddi|zuHause> not all people, but some people
07:54:11  <Alberth> sure, and that's fine
07:54:38  <Alberth> but why do you use water if you don't want obstacles?
07:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a game. people should be able to remove the annoying limitations of a game and keep the interesting ones
07:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> what's annoying and what's interesting varies between people and playstyles
07:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "this doesn't align with <random dev>'s playstyle" is not a good reason to reject gameplay features
07:56:50  <Alberth> so we just accept any patch?
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07:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> non sequitur
07:58:11  <Alberth> ie ignore TE and power on engines patch?>
07:58:38  <Alberth> I mean, it's just horrible annoying that steam trains do'n to 40000 km/h
07:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if enough people requested that? why not?
07:59:38  <Alberth> disable crashes en ignore signals patch?
07:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's a perfectly fine cheat.
08:01:33  <Alberth> cheats are just a way to hide some functions that we like less, imho
08:01:47  <Alberth> move all cheats to plain functions in the game?
08:02:13  <Alberth> I don't see any border where to guide on, any more
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08:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i'd split it into "disable crashes of trains with road vehicles" [possibly vehicle breaks down instead], and "disable crashes between two trains" [trains behave like road vehicles]
08:03:03  <Alberth> yeah, there are a zillion variations how to do it
08:03:18  <Alberth> I was just dumping random weird ideas to find a border
08:03:30  <Alberth> but that failed
08:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we'll come to an agreement about this.
08:05:18  <Alberth> I wasn't going to reject 6381, but I won't add it either
08:05:32  <Alberth> seems likely, Eddi :)
08:06:04  <LordAro> Alberth: isn't the whole point of andy's close spree that doing nothing with an issue is bad?
08:06:17  <LordAro> close it or engage in some sort of dialogue about it
08:06:23  <Alberth> any picture for 5981 ?
08:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: how was this not a dialog? :p
08:06:45  <Alberth> not at FS, I think
08:06:50  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which ended in "i'm not going to do anything with it"
08:07:20  <Alberth> you can close issues as much as you like, but that doesn't stop the stream
08:07:32  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yeah, next step would be looking for a dev willing to take it on
08:08:02  <Alberth> but nobody does that
08:08:34  <Alberth> so it sits there, and then it's our fault
08:08:36  <Alberth> oh joy
08:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we might not have enough devs, and not the infrastructure/coordination to regularly discuss open requests like that
08:12:31  <andythenorth> dialogue eh
08:12:35  * andythenorth might have a product for that :P
08:23:01  <andythenorth> it’s ok, any issue over 3 years old naturally dies
08:23:21  <andythenorth> eventually the number of FS is ~constant, because they’re dying at rate they’re added
08:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that logic does not quite add up :p
08:31:38  <LordAro> Alberth: i don't mean to assign blame at all. it just seems pointless to leave it there to do nothing if it's just going to rot until an andy comes along and deletes it
08:33:28  <LordAro> i'm always reasonably impressed when i come across a github project that's actually on top of its issue count, and amused when i come across something like
08:34:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I’m assuming a constant rate of addition per day
08:34:32  <andythenorth> and an equivalent constant rate of closure
08:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
08:35:04  <andythenorth> I think that’s testable :P
08:39:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: for the record, I like 6381, I think GS should pretty much have carte-blanche :)
08:39:23  <andythenorth> delegating behaviours we don’t like to content is a good approach
08:41:18  <Alberth> LordAro: if the issues address things I see as problem too, it's simple to "be on top of them"
08:41:39  <Alberth> in OpenTTD, it's much like the suggestions forum, you get basically everything
08:42:10  <Alberth> ie the more mature the project, the more diverse the issues, as core stuff is running
08:43:01  <LordAro> that's true
08:43:29  <LordAro> perhaps it needs to be bundled under a larger "sandbox mode" issue
08:43:34  <LordAro> in this particular case
08:43:59  <Alberth> even more sand than we have now? :D
08:44:03  <LordAro> :D
08:46:26  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never applied for reviewing and judging random patches that have no meaning to me, and I think that holds for all
08:47:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: lots of people end up doing things they didn't apply for :p
08:47:33  <Alberth> so it's basically down to the devs interest
08:47:55  <Alberth> if I get paid, I don't care (much) :p
08:48:12  <andythenorth> I was thinking same other day, in a positive way
08:48:29  <andythenorth> was going to reply in one of recent forum threads, but didn’t find correct words
08:48:52  <andythenorth> variation of “what I make, I make for me"
08:49:06  <andythenorth> I like that there are players, and I like have players use my stuff
08:49:24  <andythenorth> but my objective when I started wasn’t popularity or download counts
08:49:30  <Alberth> that doesn't hold much for me, I am more interested in solving the technical problem
08:49:52  <Alberth> if other like it too, that's bonus
08:50:27  <Alberth> but that's also a personal thing, different people have different goals
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08:53:40  <Alberth> I think if you want to have a dev look at it, you have to "sell" it to some extent
08:54:51  <LordAro> s/"sell" it/nag them constantly/
08:54:54  <LordAro> ;)
08:55:02  <Alberth> ie the big UI change 5981, it doesn't even have a screenshot
08:56:16  <Alberth> so I have to make a clone, get the patch, apply, compile, run, find the windows that changed from the patch file, and then look
08:56:20  <andythenorth> I’m intending, if I can be arsed
08:56:26  <andythenorth> to make a guide to getting a patch through
08:56:39  <andythenorth> but that somewhat pre-supposes active reviewers :)
08:56:44  <Alberth> then unapply the patch, compile, run the game, and look again to check what exactly changed
08:57:02  <Alberth> that takes me 30 minutes or so
08:57:14  <Alberth> just to see what has actually changed
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08:59:11  <andythenorth> all that, and the natural destiny of most patches is still ‘no’ :)
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09:00:06  <andythenorth> where is the line crossed where devs have a social responsibility to the community?
09:00:11  <andythenorth> is that even a thing?
09:00:12  <blocage> Alberth, why do not reply that to the bug: split patch for each chang, submit screenshot before/after
09:00:40  <andythenorth> I know some people making open-source, 3D printable replacement limbs
09:00:46  <andythenorth> we’re making a game about pixel trains :P
09:00:59  <andythenorth> social responsibility differs, eh?
09:01:19  <Alberth> I see my responsibility as providing a stable game
09:02:44  <Alberth> blocage: sure, but I mean, isn't it equally logical that the author himself thinks of this?
09:02:58  <andythenorth> not sure I feel any social responsibility :P
09:03:13  <andythenorth> I do in my actual job, but not here
09:03:22  <gentz> I will take your advice LordAro, buy nagging you guys to add this patch:
09:03:25  <blocage> Alberth, not all author as experimented opensource developpers
09:03:29  <gentz> s/buy/by
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09:03:59  <Wolf01> o/
09:04:01  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
09:04:18  <gentz> o/
09:04:21  <Alberth> blocage: but it's the same everywhere, a report, a presentation
09:04:31  <Alberth> but be my guest, add a note :)
09:04:56  <andythenorth> contributing to the project is a mess eh? :)
09:05:03  <Alberth> gentz: oh that one
09:05:16  <andythenorth> where do Iook for guidance?  Forums?  Wiki?  Here?  Github? do-not-readme?
09:05:22  <gentz> Ummm... is there any specific dev I should nag/sell my idea too?
09:05:26  <andythenorth> gentz: no
09:05:35  <gentz> Or do I just do that to all of you?
09:05:38  <andythenorth> you just have to get lucky on one who is interested at the time
09:05:44  <Alberth> if it wasn't me, I would not have responded
09:05:44  <andythenorth> you’ll mostly get no
09:06:10  <Alberth> I don't think this will fly, ever
09:06:28  <Alberth> you tried this in MP?
09:06:32  <Wolf01> andythenorth: why are you trying to summon me at that hour? XD
09:06:44  <andythenorth>
09:06:46  <andythenorth> what’s left?
09:06:49  <gentz> Alberth, no
09:06:53  <andythenorth> that list is full of ponies, which aren’t needed
09:06:57  <gentz> Hold on as I test it
09:07:18  <Alberth> I assume it will desync horribly, without even having seen the patchbut aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types
09:07:39  <Wolf01> Eh, roadtypes built by towns might be a requirement
09:07:46  <Alberth> but aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types is something that the default set enforces
09:07:57  <andythenorth> what if we ship it in the nightly, and find out about towns being a requirement?
09:08:01  <Alberth> if you don't want that, don't play with the default set
09:09:29  <andythenorth> hmm
09:09:30  <Alberth> imho a much better strategy here is to create new lines alongside the old ones
09:09:37  <andythenorth> might just close all patch FS > 3 years
09:09:40  <andythenorth> dead
09:10:02  <Alberth> that's much more fun than just mass-upgarde and continue doing what you already did
09:10:12  <gentz> I can proudly say it didn't dsync!
09:10:16  <Alberth> andy some may be relevant for being kept open
09:10:32  <Wolf01> If I get frosch to merge my branch to NRT, at least to fix the editor, or we can ship NRT as it is now and fix things with time
09:11:04  <Alberth> gentz: unfortunately, lack of desync doesn't proof safety
09:11:08  <andythenorth> the more I look at the patch queue, the more I hate it
09:11:28  <Alberth> stop looking :p
09:11:29  <gentz> Alberth, what more testing does it need?
09:11:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s cheating :)
09:11:47  <andythenorth> I have chosen to play this game, and I won’t quit yet
09:12:19  <Alberth> gentz: I don't think it will be merged
09:12:27  <Alberth> newgrf has solved this problem
09:12:27  <andythenorth> so we have ‘patch’ category
09:12:35  <gentz> :(
09:12:46  <andythenorth> and we have ‘with patch’ status
09:12:56  <gentz> But my patch doesn't add a new rail-type
09:13:09  <andythenorth> just ‘patch’ category tells nothing about whether it’s bug or feature request
09:13:11  <Alberth> gentz: if you want to skip upgrade, simply start in 2100 or so
09:13:22  <Alberth> enable "all trains forever"
09:13:35  <LordAro> gentz: i warned you :3
09:13:38  * andythenorth wonders 
09:13:45  <andythenorth> what is this upgrading business?
09:13:48  * andythenorth never upgrades
09:13:54  <andythenorth> seems to cause a lot of heartache
09:13:58  <andythenorth> for those who do
09:14:03  <andythenorth> why is it a thing?
09:14:11  <Alberth> default set forces you to upgrade
09:14:13  <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel like most of these "issues" will go away if/when a move to something with issues/pullrequests built in
09:14:27  <gentz> All it does is remove the same rail-type check from the replace window and call autoreplace on every train in a depot
09:14:32  <andythenorth> that’s the default gameplay Alberth, why change it?
09:14:46  <Alberth> ask gentz
09:14:54  <gentz> How could it possibly dysnc!
09:14:55  <andythenorth> seems like we need UI scripting to me
09:15:07  <andythenorth> shitloads of FS is about order and train management
09:15:18  <Alberth> it's a train game :p
09:15:26  <andythenorth> nearly all of them quite person-specific requests
09:15:38  <andythenorth> which would be solved with a scriptable UI
09:15:52  <andythenorth> except nobody would bother writing the scripts :)
09:15:54  <andythenorth> but eh
09:16:24  <LordAro> i'd imagine it's probably fine desync-wise, given it doesn't actually call any commands itself
09:16:30  <Wolf01> Ok, I was about to say something but you already discussed about it, so I keep reading
09:16:40  <LordAro> but bugs are almost by definition not easy to spot
09:17:07  <gentz> Which is why we should push it to trunk and wait for someone to spot something!
09:17:08  <Alberth> gentz: you're still with the idea to fix the default set, that's no-go land, especially as it has been solved already in newgrfs
09:18:03  <Alberth> and I think you play the game in the wrong way by mass-upgrading, but that's just my idea
09:18:49  <gentz> Whats the point of an convert tool if we can't/shouldn't use it?
09:19:00  <Alberth> ie if you enable "never remove old models" your entire problem disappears
09:19:16  <__ln__>
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09:19:42  <Alberth> what you mean, you can't use it? it works perfectly for everything but vehicles
09:20:21  <gentz> Can't use it without redoing all your trains.
09:20:47  <gentz> Also the convert tool is only available for trains
09:21:06  <gentz> Its nice for normal rail to electric... but nothing else
09:21:39  <Alberth> if you use railtypes that partly overlap, it works in general
09:22:16  <gentz> But nothing overlaps between electric and monorail (unless you use newgrfs)
09:23:05  <Alberth> why do you insist on a 1-1 copy of an entire new railtype in 1 minute?
09:23:32  <Alberth> the game is about building new track and stations etc
09:24:00  <andythenorth> does recoding the base set trains in newgrf solve this?
09:24:14  <Alberth> why do you don't avoid the entire issue by picking another railtype of trainset or start year
09:24:19  <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible
09:24:34  <andythenorth> rail <-> maglev <-> monorail
09:24:46  <Alberth> that will work, quite likely
09:24:50  <andythenorth> boring upgrade clicks removed
09:25:01  <gentz> andythenorth, I can get behind that
09:25:22  <gentz> If it works
09:25:27  <Alberth> but why do you start a game in a setup where you KNOW that point will come
09:25:35  * andythenorth wonders
09:25:37  <Alberth> change the setup
09:25:49  <andythenorth> if all base vehicles were recoded as newgrf, with clean nml source
09:25:50  <gentz> Alberth, its a server which goes from 1940-2050
09:25:56  <andythenorth> a lot of problems would disappear
09:26:03  <gentz> You got to upgrade eventually
09:26:04  <Alberth> gentz: so?
09:26:39  <Alberth> use nuts
09:27:01  <Alberth> all train models exist for 255 years
09:27:11  <Wolf01> I solved the problem at the root: I only use rails (normal, electrified, different speed), not a single monorail or maglev
09:28:01  <gentz> It seams I'm not good at "selling"/nagging people here
09:28:10  <gentz> :/
09:28:31  <Wolf01> There are grfs for what you want, why bother about vanilla stuff?
09:28:54  <gentz> I couldn't convince the server operator to add a new grf
09:28:58  <Alberth> gentz: you're not even open for other solutions, no point in discussing anything
09:29:03  <gentz> so I thought I could convince you guys
09:29:24  <Wolf01> Ahaha "I can't change one server so I'll change all of them"
09:29:33  <gentz> Yes
09:29:36  <Wolf01> GG.
09:30:02  <Alberth> you haven't made any point other than "I want this, and only this, and this whatI want"
09:30:41  <gentz> Alberth: What would be the requirement for scriptable ui?
09:30:42  <Alberth> if you want to convince anyone, you have to pull their counter arguments down
09:30:56  <Alberth> not MP killing, I think
09:31:31  <Alberth> unless you like an arms race in scripting the game
09:31:43  <Alberth> which is easier to achieve by making AIs
09:32:54  * andythenorth imagines a scriptable UI that can build 10k trains at once :P
09:33:07  <Alberth> no need for copy/paste anymore
09:33:11  <andythenorth> and then delete them at the end of the journey
09:33:13  <gentz> What specific things would it need to do?
09:33:24  <gentz> *be able to do
09:33:29  <Alberth> you just build the entire layout in 1 second
09:33:50  <Alberth> it's more what it shouldn't be able to do
09:34:20  <Alberth> If I have a script to assist me, normal players have no chance whatsoever
09:34:51  <gentz> One could limit number of actions a script can do per second
09:35:58  <Alberth> 1/second, so 400 train conversions or 10 wagons  take  4000 secinds?
09:36:07  <Alberth> just an hour-ush
09:36:17  <Alberth> *of 10 wagons
09:36:56  <andythenorth> main irritating thing about patches - besides the work involved - is lack of context
09:37:04  <Alberth> or laying a 200 tile track, 30 seconds?
09:37:12  <gentz> 4/second would take 15mins
09:37:14  <andythenorth> I _think_ that’s what irritates frosch about them too maybe
09:37:18  <gentz> Just as long as me
09:37:28  <andythenorth> improving a section of the game goes better with at least some aims and a plan
09:37:33  <andythenorth> not just applying patches
09:38:03  <andythenorth> and lots of patches from people who won’t join irc and actually discuss
09:38:12  <Alberth> most patches are too small scaled in aim
09:38:24  <Alberth> which is understandable, but not very useful
09:38:31  <andythenorth> also, patches have a skewed value system
09:39:12  <andythenorth> some contribute patches, and see the patch as being very high value item
09:39:22  <andythenorth> whilst neglecting value of work to test patch, review patch
09:39:25  <Alberth> gentz: we should add a payment option :p
09:39:34  <andythenorth> and value of work to ensure the game has at least some coherence to the design
09:39:40  <Alberth> pay 50 to finish now :p
09:39:44  <andythenorth> the funny thing is
09:39:44  <Wolf01> andythenorth: what would you expect from the log parser? Other than just parsing the content of the log and put it into a database, and maybe some statistics
09:40:07  <andythenorth> Wolf01: that seems like enough win there
09:40:18  <andythenorth> the funny thing is….I get every pony I want
09:40:28  <andythenorth> but I only have two actual author commits
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09:40:33  <andythenorth> so how?
09:40:51  <Alberth> you don't aim for unattainable ponies
09:41:05  <Alberth> and you're here discussing the pony
09:41:14  <Alberth> and why it's interesting
09:41:27  <andythenorth> I also make mockups, test grfs, nml patches
09:41:33  <andythenorth> I would do the docs, but I’m banned from newgrf wiki
09:41:37  <Alberth> indeed
09:41:52  <andythenorth> I also expect a default ‘no’ and I’m not surprised when I get it
09:41:53  <Alberth> but you make a case for it
09:42:30  <Alberth> and you accept that not everything is possible
09:42:50  <Alberth> probably from knowing the general limits and general direction
09:42:55  <andythenorth> I also test patches ASAP when asked, even if I really can’t be arsed a the time
09:43:34  <Alberth> including patches we need tested, and you happen to be the owner of a device :p
09:43:38  <andythenorth> so I’m pretty awesome eh
09:43:45  <Alberth> yeah :)
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09:44:07  * andythenorth clones andythenorth 
09:44:14  <Alberth> uhoh... :p
09:44:39  <andythenorth> actually I don’t get every pony
09:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible <-- that exists, it is called "universal railtype"
09:44:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that too :)
09:44:58  <andythenorth> solved problem
09:45:08  <andythenorth> sad ponies: there’s some stuff about the mess of water transport that I can’t get any traction for at all
09:45:14  <andythenorth> maybe I should try and patch it :P
09:45:19  <gentz> Ok, so the scriptable ui will need time limit on actions and a feature to donate to gentz... anything else before I try to do it?
09:46:01  <Alberth> very likely
09:46:09  <andythenorth> donations :)
09:46:12  <andythenorth> nice
09:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: our builtin squirrel interpreter has a limit to "opcodes"
09:46:55  <andythenorth> there are example cases in FS that could only (imo) be met by scripting
09:46:56  <Alberth> and has been disabled on design
09:46:57  <andythenorth> e.g.
09:47:16  <andythenorth> there is no good UI for that request, it’s basically a bullshit request with no thought in it
09:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> which is not perfect, some supposedly "atomic" operations that took too long were forbidden. like "sort"
09:47:30  <andythenorth> it’s a total “I want a pony” from someone who can’t actually ride
09:48:11  <andythenorth> but a script could walk all vehicles, looking for the order, and replacing it
09:48:15  <Alberth> I am quite opposed to automating stuff
09:48:22  <gentz> FS? Whats that?
09:48:26  <Alberth> flyspray
09:48:34  <andythenorth> where ideas go to die :)
09:48:34  <gentz> oh
09:48:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the bug tracker
09:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enabling AI for human player companies is supposedly a one-line patch
09:49:00  <Alberth> the entire point of a game is to be busy with it
09:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it was deliberately disabled
09:49:12  <Alberth> automating everything just deafeats that
09:49:18  <andythenorth> I dunno
09:49:24  <andythenorth> I don’t really care how people play
09:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, you'll get busy with automating things... it's just a metalevel game :p
09:49:42  <andythenorth> you can use comic sans on a mac, even though Steve Jobs was a typography perfectionist
09:49:47  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: write an AI
09:50:05  <Alberth> start programming in C++
09:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is "cheating" on servers that try to be competetive (even though that is a goal that can never be achieved)
09:50:33  <Alberth> ie it's not openttd :p
09:50:47  <andythenorth> I give, to be crude, zero fucks about MP other than desyncs
09:51:01  <andythenorth> so much MP bollocks
09:51:26  <Alberth> pretty much all servers are not co-op play
09:51:47  <andythenorth> playing MP to win is stupid in a non-winnable game
09:51:57  <andythenorth> GS is different
09:52:00  <Alberth> you just redefine winning :p
09:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yet, some people do it... are those people stupid?
09:52:44  <andythenorth> no, but specifically designing in that direction is stupid
09:53:06  <andythenorth> last time I played non-GS MP, I spent most of my time building a castle with newgrf
09:53:09  <Alberth> we're not taking many economic patches, you know :p
09:53:10  <andythenorth> and griefing Pikka
09:53:38  <andythenorth> non GS MP is mostly lulz
09:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, if you allow AI on human companies, then you'll attract the "wallhack"-"aimbot" crowd
09:54:01  <andythenorth> is that good or bad?
09:54:07  <andythenorth> hmm
09:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> say, someone makes a script that places rails whenever someone else places a station
09:54:18  <andythenorth> maybe we should add *more* griefing opportunities
09:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so the player can never use the station
09:54:41  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well those people can play on bot servers against each other
09:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> or, they buy exclusive rights in every town
09:54:57  <Alberth> if they did, it would be no problem
09:55:07  <gentz> Then they'd just ban ais
09:55:22  <andythenorth> what’s the problem in MP?
09:55:26  <gentz> And I'd get to enjoy my auto upgrades for a week
09:55:28  <Alberth> we did, by not allowing scriptable UI
09:55:32  <andythenorth> why don’t griefers just get kbanned?
09:55:52  * andythenorth is perplexed
09:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that needs efficient moderator/administrator tools
09:56:02  <Alberth> if I build a station in 0.1 seconds, is that grieving?
09:56:05  <andythenorth> no
09:56:26  <Alberth> 20 platforms, and all entry and exit tracks, signalling, everything?
09:56:29  <andythenorth> no
09:56:31  <andythenorth> it’s efficient
09:56:40  <andythenorth> but you are convincing me towards -1 on scriptable UI
09:56:46  <andythenorth> due to wailing from MP players
09:56:55  <andythenorth> MP is a pox on the game :P
09:57:01  <Alberth> so I can fill the entire map with proper routes in less than a minute
09:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i'm not actually an MP player, i just take on a random position in this discussion
09:57:10  <andythenorth> yes
09:57:11  <Alberth> nice competitive play then :p
09:57:17  <andythenorth> at which point you have won at writing scripts
09:57:22  <gentz> Current AI has a speed limit, yes?
09:57:22  <Alberth> yep
09:57:25  <andythenorth> that’s some pretty good AI programming imho
09:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: solution might be a server flag "no scripts allowed"
09:57:54  <Alberth> andythenorth: find a server with a fixed map
09:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> (hoping that people don't use "hacked" clients which ignore this flag)
09:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> also, something like the landscaping burst limits, for arbitrary commands
09:58:24  <andythenorth> no problem that isn’t solved with another flag
09:58:27  <andythenorth> except too many flags
09:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> flag to reduce the number of flags
09:58:41  <gentz> check for hacked client flag?
09:58:57  <Alberth> how are you going to do that?
09:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: we have that, it's called "version string"
09:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: but you can hack that, too :p
09:59:13  <andythenorth> can never trust the client
09:59:17  <andythenorth> hmm
09:59:31  <andythenorth> what stops me just making a client with scripting in it, and joining servers?
09:59:40  <Alberth> nothing
09:59:46  <Alberth> just a lot of work
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10:00:10  <Alberth> and probably you should avoid being too obvious cheating
10:00:16  <Alberth> if you like that meta-game
10:00:30  <gentz> So are you folks proposing hacking my client just so I don't have to manually upgrade trains?
10:00:36  <andythenorth> sounds like office space Alberth
10:00:47  <gentz> I like it
10:01:20  <gentz> I'll start counting number of days till I'm banned from everything
10:01:24  <Alberth> play at a more sane server is simpler
10:01:32  <andythenorth> plot of Office Space is something like exploiting integer maths to siphon a penny off from financial transactions
10:01:41  <andythenorth> only they do it wrong and get too much money
10:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like that happened...
10:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it was in the news a few years ago
10:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> they implemented a system that banks use to transfer money back and forth, and cut off after like 4 decimal digits
10:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> was in place for years
10:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> earned a really really large sum of money
10:04:26  <Alberth> we should just have a single world-wide currency :p
10:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "love"? :p
10:04:46  <gentz> Who will print it?
10:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: even bitcoin split into two, because they couldn't quite agree
10:06:02  <Alberth> bitcoin is weird, make money by spending cpu time :p
10:06:05  <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug"
10:06:07  <andythenorth> ?
10:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how is that more weird than making money by digging through dirt?
10:06:29  <andythenorth> bug tracker has many many ways of classifying, and very limited actual usefulness
10:06:35  <_dp_> o/
10:06:40  <andythenorth> lo _dp_
10:06:45  <_dp_> chat is so fast lately I can't even catch up xD
10:06:59  <Alberth> try #python for a change :p
10:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's all andys fault
10:07:31  <Alberth> it's hard to follow one discussion there
10:07:47  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" <- Yes, you can
10:07:58  <Alberth> andy, some "has patch attached" would be a useful notion, I think
10:08:07  <andythenorth> there is ‘with patch’ status
10:08:12  <andythenorth> which seems useful
10:08:52  <Alberth> eddi   fair point :)
10:09:00  <_dp_> upgrading railtypes is such a huge pain that all our servers are set up in a way that it's never ever required
10:09:18  <_dp_> not sure if that patch will help any but would be nice to have an upgrades that actually work
10:09:18  <Alberth> gentz: ^ one sane server :)
10:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: pre-colonial american societies used seashells as currency
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10:10:01  <gentz> Or you guys could stop breaking my heart and make me happy
10:10:04  <Alberth> likely we did something weird too in the past
10:10:05  <gentz> by merging it
10:10:12  <andythenorth> Samu’s patches are a classic of ‘but why?'
10:10:16  <gentz> And ignoring all protential bugs
10:10:30  <andythenorth> urgh
10:10:39  <andythenorth> what if it’s not a feature request, or a bug?
10:10:42  <andythenorth> but refactoring?
10:10:42  <Alberth> andy, sometimes he did shoot correctly
10:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: after WWII cigarettes were a common "currency" in destroyed europe
10:10:55  * NGC3982 hand a snail to Eddi|zuHause and expects service.
10:11:21  <Alberth> so smoking cost money, in a very real sense :p
10:11:22  <Wolf01> andythenorth: change "patch" to "codechange"
10:11:34  <andythenorth> I have no admin rights :)
10:11:44  <Wolf01> Meh
10:12:09  <Wolf01> Leave the ones which aren't fix or feature as patch
10:12:43  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: my grand grandfather lived in the middle of sweden during the war. he (like most of us up here) was not affected directly by the war, more than having to live beside the rails that reach to the top of norrland (northest of sweden). when we cleaned his house after his death we found german cigarettes in big quantities, and we think germans traveling trough sweden traded with him.
10:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: currencies are weird in general. there must be a) enough of it to facilitate trading, b) some difficulty to make more of, c) some difficulty to fake it
10:13:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: Samu seems like a stopped clock :)
10:13:25  <NGC3982> sed -i e/big/large/g
10:13:33  <andythenorth> right twice a day, but should it be kept? o_O
10:13:57  <NGC3982> sed -i e/grand g*/great g*/g
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10:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that is probably not valid sed :p
10:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can ommit the g if there's only one instance (per line)
10:16:01  <NGC3982> haha, i just wrote something
10:16:17  <NGC3982> i usually have to man seds, since botching it has concequences up the pooper.
10:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i have no clue what e does
10:16:39  <NGC3982> its an important feature
10:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yeah, don't use -i until you're sure it's right
10:16:52  <NGC3982> it aligns the galaxies in the local group to better focus the cpu energy
10:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: how does that affect my Akasha devices?
10:19:14  <andythenorth> how would a patch like this even get decided on yes / no?
10:19:22  <andythenorth> it’s a binary decision, and we have no BDFL
10:19:24  <NGC3982> its funny. i had to google that. it sounded like some Yamaha bluetooth device
10:19:35  <NGC3982> it was indian cosmology. neat. :-p
10:20:05  <Wolf01> andythenorth: that patch is pure bullshit
10:20:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it's invalid, but not sure
10:20:26  <Alberth> ie there is a time window where the map is being copied
10:20:36  <Alberth> there you can really not do anything
10:20:46  <Wolf01> Since threading autosave starts after copying the map, and copying the map means the game must be freezed
10:20:47  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982:
10:20:55  <Alberth> outside that window, imho the sleep cursor should not happen
10:21:05  <Alberth> but I don't know for sure that is really the case
10:21:35  <andythenorth> so it can be approached as a technical question?
10:21:38  <Alberth> although it seems very likely that it is programmed like that
10:21:43  <andythenorth> rather than an aesthetic choice?
10:21:48  * andythenorth brb
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10:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the Zzzz cursor appears during that copying step, and disappears once compressing/writing is forked
10:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not really sure
10:23:54  <Alberth> the same here, I never really checked it
10:24:28  <Alberth> there is an aesthetic choice of course, but everybody wants less Zzz cursor, so that's all aligned nicely :)
10:24:40  <_dp_> >  <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game
10:24:50  <_dp_> trees are only obstacles for complete newbies :p
10:25:00  <_dp_> *authority
10:25:08  <_dp_> most players just spam trees
10:25:19  <_dp_> and some like me even have hotkey for that
10:25:24  <_dp_> so it's pure annoyance
10:25:41  <Alberth> imho it's mostly a bug that trees work :p
10:26:00  <Alberth> but yeah, cities are a pain
10:26:12  <_dp_> though I've already enabled magic bulldozer on our servers so I'm totally fine with that never being implemented
10:26:13  <Alberth> not sure why the original game made it like that
10:26:26  <_dp_> it just means it will be harder for other servers to be as cool as ours :p
10:27:43  <Alberth> it pushes towards industrial cargo
10:28:04  <Alberth> which I guess is more interesting from a transport point of view
10:28:20  <_dp_> original was a sp game in an almost pre-internet era :p
10:28:35  <Alberth> why does your server aim for cities?
10:29:06  <_dp_> Alberth, because CB is pretty much the only complex game mode invented so far
10:29:08  <Alberth> even in sp, cities are a mess
10:29:29  <Alberth> it takes ages to get a track through it without cheating
10:30:05  <_dp_> Alberth, that's realism :p
10:30:51  <Alberth> sure, and I am fine with it
10:30:56  <_dp_> besides in openttd tracks aren't good for city growth so it's even more reason for it
10:31:38  <_dp_> but authorities are stupid, you can build an awesome road layout for city and it still hates you
10:31:49  <Alberth> industries are missing some capability or so?
10:32:18  <Alberth> authorities take a "see then believe" assumption :p
10:33:27  <_dp_> Alberth, nah, just stupid :p planting trees and active stations is not much of a help for city
10:34:15  <Alberth> wirthout moving into simcity, I can see designers wanted something simple fitting in the game
10:35:25  <Alberth> I usually deal with authorities by switching to some other area, and return in a decade
10:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the most notable thing about these akasha pillars are the user ratings below :p
10:36:00  <_dp_> Alberth, you can't switch to some other area in CB if that's your town that hates you :p
10:36:15  <Alberth> yeah
10:36:32  <Alberth> CB really doesn't fit well at all
10:36:46  <Alberth> yet everybody jumps at it
10:37:04  <_dp_> well, clearly ttd wasn't even designed for goal games
10:37:08  <_dp_> but it manages fine
10:37:13  <_dp_> *ever
10:37:42  <Alberth> I think up to a few years back, people made their own goals
10:37:59  <Alberth> and that may have happened all the time
10:38:05  <_dp_> btw wasn't original game considered to be an economic sim?
10:38:20  <_dp_> dunno what it's designers smoked but I fail to understand that xD
10:38:29  <Alberth> think it is
10:38:52  <Alberth> you see stocks playing a much bigger role in other train transport games
10:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it has money, and you can make more of it. how is that not an economic sim?
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10:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for me, stocks were always the worst part of railroad tycoon
10:39:37  <Alberth> chineese students learn it by playing openttd :p
10:40:33  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and minecraft has minecarts, does that make it a transport simulator?
10:40:38  <Alberth> likely because early american train companies were small and heavily into stocks
10:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i thought the point of minecraft was to build rollercoasters?
10:41:27  <Alberth> or logic circuits
10:42:09  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3, the stock market *was* the game
10:42:12  <andythenorth> it was awesome
10:42:13  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if so that's pretty dull rollercoasters, you can't even go upside down :p
10:42:17  <andythenorth> the trains were completely automated
10:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i have heard of people who play GTA V with their kids, following all the traffic laws and stuff :p
10:44:16  <andythenorth> hmm
10:44:24  <andythenorth> so ottd is a bit lost eh
10:44:37  <Alberth> exploded in all directions? :)
10:45:00  <andythenorth> no Rubidium :)
10:45:05  <andythenorth> no-one in charge
10:45:08  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are all kinds of crazy people but I don't think gta was even advertised as a law-friendly game
10:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> err, obviously not. :p
10:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but the fun part about open-world games is: you can ignore the parts that don't interest you and make your own game within the game
10:48:44  <_dp_> sure that's exactly what goal servers do ;)
10:48:52  <_dp_> but you don't call openttd an rts
10:49:06  <_dp_> yet ttd devs called it economy sim for some reason :p
10:52:04  <milek7> i don't think ttd is simulator of anything, just game ;p
10:52:46  * andythenorth wonders
10:52:55  <andythenorth> how about blanket policy: reject all patches?
10:53:28  <Alberth> how would you ever get new devs?
10:54:20  <Alberth> not to mention large game features
10:54:31  <andythenorth> not sure, thinking
10:55:00  <andythenorth> the whole patching culture is very transactional
10:55:13  <andythenorth> it doesn’t really seem to work in most projects I see it
10:55:19  <andythenorth> it’s without conversation
10:55:24  <andythenorth> it’s not collaborative
10:55:28  <andythenorth> it’s not social
10:55:28  <Alberth> it assumes alignment on intentions
10:55:35  <andythenorth> it’s very over-the-fence
10:55:45  <andythenorth> and it creates a lot of hostility
10:55:54  <andythenorth> needlessly afaict
10:56:07  <Alberth> in tightly coupled dev-groups, it works
10:56:22  <andythenorth> that assumes at least (1) group (2) tight coupling :)
10:56:26  <Alberth> but it assumes everybody does his/her part
10:56:45  <andythenorth> to use terrible metaphors
10:56:51  <Alberth> it does make such assumptions indeed
10:56:55  <andythenorth> if someone came and offered to paint my door blue
10:56:59  <andythenorth> that would be odd
10:57:10  <andythenorth> if they were then offended because I didn’t accept their suggestion
10:57:12  <andythenorth> that would be odder
10:57:33  <andythenorth> and if they turned up with the paint and everything, all paid for, that would be odd too
10:57:40  <andythenorth> it’s a crap metaphor but
10:59:00  <Alberth> quite close, in a sense
10:59:34  <andythenorth> I don’t think this has helped
10:59:36  <andythenorth> was my idea
10:59:40  <LordAro> andythenorth: like i said, the sooner the move to something with pull requests, the better
11:00:02  <andythenorth> LordAro: I think that improves the mechanic, but still leaves it transactional
11:00:05  <andythenorth> I am +1 btw
11:00:17  <LordAro> what's the issue with transactional?
11:00:26  <andythenorth> only works for limited cases
11:00:28  <Alberth> somewhat it helps, but it's the reverse idea, we tell what we want
11:00:45  <andythenorth> transactional works for easily verified bug fixes
11:00:46  <Alberth> which doesn't work, much like they tell us what they want
11:01:01  <andythenorth> I think we should unsticky / close that post
11:01:12  <andythenorth> also people *have* submitted requested patches…and got deafening silence
11:01:19  <Alberth> that holds for many stickies :p
11:01:20  <andythenorth> so it’s kind of rude
11:01:39  * andythenorth needs a forum mod
11:02:06  * andythenorth goes through the requested
11:02:21  <andythenorth> <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list
11:02:49  <andythenorth> <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list
11:04:17  <andythenorth> eh done :)
11:05:01  <_dp_> patches work better when there is a good feedback
11:05:09  <_dp_> having a dictator won't hurt either imo
11:05:11  <andythenorth> oh I’m not allowed to edit wiki
11:05:23  <andythenorth> we have nobody who wants to be dictator currently _dp_ :)
11:05:50  <Wolf01> I could be one, but you won't like it
11:06:06  <_dp_> same xD
11:06:29  <FLHerne> Perhaps we need an election to pick a dictator?
11:07:09  <_dp_> dictators usually aren't elected :p
11:07:33  <FLHerne> Have everyone explain their vision of the game, and then force people to choose the least worst
11:08:04  <LordAro> it'd need to be someone who can dedicate the time
11:08:11  <andythenorth> who’s the electorate? :P
11:08:21  <FLHerne> tt-forums, obviously
11:08:25  <andythenorth> hah
11:08:36  <andythenorth> I could be BDFL, but *I* wouldn’t like it
11:08:47  <FLHerne> Maybe accept (non-duplicate) votes on simuscape to minimise whining
11:08:52  <andythenorth> I do that all day long for money, with actual paying customers
11:09:05  <andythenorth> there is zero reward doing it in OpenTTD land
11:09:23  <andythenorth> and we lack an obsessive control freak like Linus or Guido or the Dwarf Fortress guy
11:10:50  <andythenorth> LordAro: can you edit wiki?
11:11:03  * andythenorth is bored of being banned from wikiw
11:11:03  <LordAro> nope
11:11:05  <Alberth> likely protected area
11:11:07  <LordAro> "page has been protected"
11:11:12  <andythenorth> ok
11:11:13  <Alberth> what should be done?
11:11:29  <andythenorth> is done
11:11:34  <andythenorth> needs removed or marked as win
11:12:50  <Alberth> done
11:13:03  <andythenorth> thanks
11:13:08  <Alberth> yw
11:13:11  <andythenorth> <- no discussion two years, not dead yet
11:14:12  <andythenorth> <- I rejected that, we don’t need mouse hover on menu items, it’s faff
11:15:53  <Alberth> 6078 seems like a solution
11:16:00  <Alberth> window is a bit long
11:16:10  <Alberth> *wide
11:16:57  <andythenorth> it is eh
11:16:59  <Alberth> oh, 2 sentences ideas don't belong in the FS tracker
11:17:12  <andythenorth> o_O ?
11:17:56  <Alberth> "it would be nice to have $random major feature"
11:18:05  <Alberth> yes, it would
11:18:08  <andythenorth> where it’s obvious and known, it’s kind of junk
11:18:09  <milek7> is there any point in having feature requests without patches on FS?
11:18:19  <andythenorth> milek7: sometimes imho
11:18:29  <andythenorth> they work when they collate the discussion
11:18:35  <andythenorth> not so much for obvious crap
11:19:05  <andythenorth> I folded ‘RVs need to ovetake’ tickets into this one
11:19:12  <andythenorth> and now it actually has some utility
11:19:21  <Alberth> milek7: for complicated things like re-organizing the windows, you have a lot of discussion to get to a proper proposal
11:19:22  <andythenorth> 5 random RV over-taking wishes is no use
11:19:37  <andythenorth> 1 ticket with at least listed cases to consider…some use
11:19:43  <Alberth> I have that wish too
11:19:54  <Alberth> didn't bother making a ticket for it :p
11:20:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: is “Unify the appearance and position of "goto location" buttons.” in the wiki page
11:20:22  <andythenorth> you’re going to get bored of being a remote-edit bot thb
11:20:26  <Alberth> yeah
11:20:26  <andythenorth> tbh *
11:20:38  <Alberth> it's not done right?
11:20:43  <andythenorth> dunno
11:21:28  <andythenorth> is in the list, but is rejected
11:21:35  <Alberth> 6078 is about lifetime
11:22:03  <andythenorth> ach sorry
11:22:36  <andythenorth> should be
11:22:54  <Alberth> we request an impossible request?
11:23:06  <andythenorth> could be reopened
11:23:11  <andythenorth> ship the text in the binary
11:23:15  <andythenorth> totally plausible
11:23:21  <andythenorth> but nobody has
11:23:34  <Wolf01> Mmmh, we should talk with adf88 about the combining/converting railtypes, as NRT needs that for road too
11:23:53  <Alberth> but is it at the wiki?
11:24:01  <Alberth> I'd be surprised, tbh
11:24:07  <andythenorth> it’s in the wiki
11:24:13  <andythenorth> "Readme/licence/changelog viewer for OpenTTD itself. (likely requires OS/packaging specific code)"
11:24:43  <Alberth> ok, so it already points at a solution
11:25:19  <andythenorth> either generate the readme, or add some lang strings from contents of readme
11:25:20  <andythenorth> but eh
11:25:26  <Alberth> 5018 is thus   a duplicate?
11:25:49  <andythenorth> not sure of the history exactly
11:25:59  <Alberth> it has less information then the wiki
11:26:09  <andythenorth> in a better bug tracker, we’d create a public saved query listing the ‘wanted’ features
11:26:19  <andythenorth> thus circumventing wiki
11:26:28  <andythenorth> forums -> wiki -> FS -> graveyard
11:27:10  <andythenorth> I’m not crying about this, but I have definitely been in conversations here along lines of “but nobody even submitted anything in the wanted patches list"
11:27:38  <andythenorth> yet they have, and broadly not looked at
11:27:53  <andythenorth> not a winning strategy :)
11:28:06  <Alberth> 5981 I don't know, the wanted feature is not mine. I am willing to take a look, but spending 30 minutes just to see what it does is just stupid
11:28:31  <andythenorth> I have no interest in it
11:28:43  <andythenorth> I am dubious about touching most of the UI
11:28:54  <andythenorth> it’s well established, and mostly not broken
11:28:57  <Alberth> I don't think anyone is closely watching the junk coming in in the FS
11:29:10  <andythenorth> I dislike watching amateur UI designers at work :(
11:29:22  <andythenorth> and it’s part of my day, and it’s hard, so eh
11:29:30  <andythenorth> day job *
11:29:49  * andythenorth wonders how it is to be a proper programmer and watch andythenorth write code :P
11:30:12  <Alberth> I think everybody writes in his own way
11:30:24  <Alberth> the end-result is what counts
11:30:33  <Alberth> not the program itself
11:31:24  <andythenorth> different for UIs
11:31:40  <andythenorth> anyway no screenshot
11:31:50  <andythenorth> nobody will touch it
11:31:58  <Alberth> I would do it differently or quicker, but until you have found your current approach failing, I can't explain it
11:32:49  <andythenorth> that wiki page lacks a ‘Windows’ section
11:34:36  <andythenorth> omg, I found this also
11:34:44  <Alberth> sorry, but I have other things to do, and no rights to give you access
11:34:50  <andythenorth> nah it’s fine :)
11:35:14  * andythenorth should feed children lunch and stuff and stop doing this :P
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11:35:35  <Alberth> users make the weirdest lists :P
11:35:44  <andythenorth> tempted to rewrite this though eh
11:35:50  <andythenorth> it’s basically not true
11:35:58  <andythenorth> kinda
11:36:09  <Cadadadry> h
11:36:12  <Cadadadry> hello
11:37:01  <andythenorth> hi
11:37:31  <andythenorth> hmm, is the git repo still a sync to an svn master?
11:37:41  <Cadadadry> looking for somebody to tell me some clues about ottd, pls
11:38:48  <Cadadadry> who knows the options included into the station window ?
11:39:23  <Alberth> you actually want a list?
11:39:43  <Alberth> I don't think anyone knows that from their head
11:40:08  <Alberth> perhaps tell what problem you're trying to solve?
11:40:57  <Alberth> andy, faq development is also protected?
11:41:02  <andythenorth> no
11:41:17  <andythenorth> I am considering editing it, but I don’t want to add alternative facts
11:41:24  <andythenorth> because alternative facts are lies
11:41:39  <Alberth> some presidents think otherwise :p
11:41:41  <Cadadadry> well, compared to original TTD, there are new settings into station window (like the little "+" switching to "-" and some new buttons as well
11:41:54  <andythenorth> did we switch to git as master yet?
11:41:57  <andythenorth> or svn still?
11:42:02  <Alberth> svn, afaik
11:42:05  <Cadadadry> wondering what they are made for ?
11:42:22  <andythenorth> I am dubious about all this svn advice in that page
11:42:41  <andythenorth> given that previous ruling method was hg for ~5 years or so
11:42:47  <andythenorth> and now there’s a debate about git
11:42:51  <Alberth> oh, in yellow at the right, you mean Cadadadry ?
11:43:12  <Cadadadry> yes :)
11:44:11  <Alberth> how nice, nobody added cdist to the wiki yet :p
11:44:35  <Alberth> it's cargo-dist
11:45:02  <andythenorth> I have half a page of notes about how cargo-dist actually works
11:45:03  <Alberth> do you have a station where trains load cargo for more than one station?
11:45:04  <andythenorth> for the wiki
11:45:07  <Cadadadry> is there some kind of detailed handbook about new features ?  couldnt find it on wiki
11:45:09  <andythenorth> the current page is lies iirc
11:45:24  <Alberth> *the same cargo
11:45:25  <andythenorth> cargodist page
11:45:36  <Alberth> quite non-readable
11:45:43  <Cadadadry> yes I do
11:46:01  <Alberth> open the station window there and click on the +
11:46:10  <Alberth> you get 2 lines under it
11:46:33  <Alberth> each line lists what part of the cargo at the top-line goes to where
11:46:34  <Cadadadry> it proposes me to "reserve" some goods, but how does that work ?
11:47:14  <Alberth> it's automatic (well, if you enable cargo-dist, that is)
11:47:30  <Alberth> it means the train currently in the station will get that
11:47:40  <Alberth> ie "resevred for that train"
11:48:28  <Alberth> if you stop the trains from going into the stations, you get an amount of cargo build up, distributed to all destinations that you have there
11:48:49  <Alberth> cargo-dist handles the distribution
11:49:16  <Cadadadry> so, the "+" is only an option for more info ? it's no setting ?
11:49:28  <Alberth> yes, just more info
11:49:40  <andythenorth> cargodist suffers from two misconceptions generally
11:49:41  <Alberth> cargo-dist settings are in the settings
11:50:12  <Cadadadry> hmm got to tell you my game is in french, so talking about general settings will be hard :D
11:50:37  <Cadadadry> thx for your help anyway ;)
11:51:19  <Cadadadry> btw I've got a Mumble server if you guys want to talk about the game on the mike
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11:53:02  <Cadadadry> I wish I could share a game with another player, but not a competitive one, just a coop...
11:53:18  <Cadadadry> Anybody interested ?
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11:56:07  <andythenorth> Cadadadry: it’s quite rare that anybody joins an MP game from asking here :)
11:56:21  <andythenorth> you could try Coop though
11:56:33  <Cadadadry> cheers andy :)
11:58:37  <andythenorth> quak ?
12:00:20  <Cadadadry> looks like I'll have to reinstall TS3...
12:00:32  <Cadadadry> AFK 5 min...
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12:09:45  <andythenorth> adf88: are you +/-1 to closing this?
12:09:50  <andythenorth> issue is ancient
12:10:17  <adf88> hi, let me look...
12:11:26  <adf88> +1
12:11:42  <frosch123> hoi
12:12:17  <adf88> while there might be some issue in this area, it wasn't pointed out properly, the argumentation is false
12:12:44  <andythenorth> I should close, or you will?  I’m happy to
12:14:49  <adf88> do the honors
12:15:06  <adf88> you're right that "Issue has aged, there is no sign that it's still relevant to anyone. "
12:17:40  <andythenorth> done
12:27:06  <andythenorth> sounds like nonsense to me
12:27:19  <andythenorth> we don’t need this kind of change
12:28:50  <frosch123> it's a code simplification wihtout change
12:28:55  <frosch123> if it is correct, it is good
12:29:47  <andythenorth> I closed it on this basis
12:29:50  <andythenorth> I can reopen
12:30:21  <frosch123> i would disagree, reopen :)
12:30:30  <frosch123> we need more people who can refactor code
12:31:10  <frosch123> i am sure this task got onto my todo list in 2014 and then got burried :)
12:31:10  <Alberth> juanjo is often right
12:31:38  <andythenorth> done
12:32:36  <Cadadadry> A big thank you to you all coders to have brought back TTD from the grave, and fixed a lot of bugs :)
12:33:23  <Cadadadry> I'm still exploring new content, but got to admit I feel lost :/
12:34:28  <frosch123> no surprise, new user experience is hard :)
12:34:44  <Cadadadry> Does anyone remember "A-train" ?
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12:35:03  <frosch123> i heard about it, but never played it
12:35:05  <Alkel_U3> sure, I used to play that
12:35:13  <Cadadadry> :)
12:35:18  <andythenorth> testing patches is slow eh :)
12:35:24  <Cadadadry> you must be over 50 now ^^
12:35:43  <frosch123> you can play games at age 10
12:35:48  <Cadadadry> true
12:35:59  <Alkel_U3> actually not even close, I've just always been into older games :-)
12:36:08  <Cadadadry> congrats :)
12:36:23  <Cadadadry> brb
12:36:38  <Alkel_U3> I had to reboot my win98 in tru DOS mode to run it, it wouldn't otherwise
12:38:12  <andythenorth> is worth a look
12:38:29  <andythenorth> distant-join is hard to explain to 7 year olds
12:44:34  <Cadadadry> @andythenorth If find that idea is great (joining distant stations through a button)
12:47:16  <andythenorth> I would do it simpler
12:47:41  <andythenorth> I would invert the current behaviour, and simply show the list of nearby stations always on build
12:47:45  <andythenorth> unless ctrl is used
12:47:50  <andythenorth> works better on touch
12:48:19  <andythenorth> and makes the mechanic more obvious, at the cost of extra clicks
12:49:03  <Cadadadry> yes, that would help managing stations into big cities
12:50:21  <Cadadadry> I'm now on #openttdcoop TS server, but 0 user online :/
12:51:13  <andythenorth> :P
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12:57:35  <frosch123> "3390 files, 410k lines of code" <- factorio people seem to love short files
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12:59:22  <andythenorth> ach, which patch am I even testing now ;P
12:59:25  * andythenorth losing count
12:59:51  <frosch123> LordAro: what's your opinion on boost? i have the impression that many people turn their backs on it
13:01:39  <andythenorth> does openttd have a hotkey editor?
13:02:00  <frosch123> no, not sure whether i remember a partial patch for it
13:02:55  <andythenorth> FS someone reporting a crash with it
13:03:15  * andythenorth must be misreading
13:03:38  <Cadadadry> going back to game, cya all and thx for helping ;)
13:04:36  <andythenorth>
13:04:50  <andythenorth> I set SPACE as a hotkey, OpenTTD crashes on exit
13:05:41  <frosch123> andythenorth: there is hotkeys.cfg
13:05:48  <frosch123> you can edit the hotkeys outside of ottd
13:05:58  <andythenorth> I did that :)
13:07:54  <andythenorth> whatever else the patch does, it cause OpenTTD to crash on exit reliably
13:07:58  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
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13:18:07  <FLHerne> Useful idea, though
13:20:18  <andythenorth> so many useful ideas
13:20:49  <andythenorth> they are probably 30:1 on useful implementations
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13:22:03  <andythenorth> maybe 10:1
13:22:08  <andythenorth> there are ~90 patches on FS
13:22:17  <andythenorth> probably 10 are valid
13:23:49  <Wolf01> Today is a BAD day, I don't feel well (because of the weather change), a friend's HDD reached 161°C and died :|
13:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> how did he manage that?
13:24:29  <Wolf01> Dunno
13:25:03  <Wolf01> Could be SMART failure to report a wrong temp
13:25:25  <Alkel_U3> is that still _that_ friend?
13:25:32  <Wolf01> No, another one
13:25:39  <Wolf01> I melted one HDD too, tbh
13:26:04  <Wolf01> The one fill with holiday and family photos
13:26:07  <Wolf01> *filled
13:26:50  <Alkel_U3> "Data you don't have at least at two places are data you don't care about." --old wisdom
13:27:03  <Alkel_U3> I learned it the hard way, too :(
13:27:06  <Wolf01> I have 3 backups now
13:27:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i invested into 3 HDDs to make a RAID5
13:27:42  <Wolf01> Still a problem if the entire machine gets destroyed
13:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, but then i probably have bigger problems
13:28:38  <Wolf01> I have data in pc which backups in nas, which backups again the most important data to another separate HDD
13:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you should have backups in another location, in that case
13:29:36  <Wolf01> Yup, mine are in 2 different and distant rooms of the house
13:29:55  <Wolf01> Problem is when... I get flooded :E
13:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> at work we have a raid10 across different houses
13:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> or raid15, not sure
13:31:19  <Wolf01> I read "we have a radio across different houses"
13:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you are too 1337 for this world
13:32:33  <Wolf01> I'm you, but italian
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13:44:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: ever tried writing an OpenTTD roadmap? o_O
13:44:48  * andythenorth is obliged to write annual product roadmaps :|
13:46:41  <Wolf01> We had roadmaps up to 1.3 iirc, I don't know if they were respected btw
13:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> they kinda devolved into wishlists
13:50:37  <frosch123> easy: 1. make c++11 capable farm, 2a. port to harfbuzz, 2b. port to sdl2, 2c. replace need for  custom containers with c++11 emplace stuff, 3b. add os cursor support, 4b add font gui, 3c replace global pools with something that allows independent instances of pools, 4c make newgrf stuff run independent instances, 5c1 make newgrf preview, 5c2 run independen newgrf callbacks in paralle, 2d split drawing loop into parts accessing game data and
13:50:38  <frosch123> stuff accessing sprites with a pipeline inbetween, 3d make drawing multi-threaded
13:51:00  <frosch123> how much of that is on *any* other roadmap? :p
13:51:07  <andythenorth> not one I’ve seen
13:51:30  <frosch123> see, that's the problem, the trick is to align intentions
13:51:36  <andythenorth> isn’t it
13:51:53  <LordAro> frosch123: boost is... tricky. lots of very nice things in it, but it's a very big dependency
13:51:59  <frosch123> at least we seem to have 3 people interested in c++11 stuff, but that still doesn't tell whether they will disagree in details :)
13:52:03  <andythenorth> I am quite prepared to keep reading FS, testing patches, and saying no to people
13:52:12  <LordAro> i'm of the opinion that you need to go "all in" with it or not at all
13:52:17  <andythenorth> but the actual goals vary depending who is in this channel at the time :P
13:52:28  <andythenorth> and there’s no BDFL or active project leader
13:52:33  <LordAro> and i think it'd be quite tricky to go "all in" with it in ottd's current state
13:52:53  <frosch123> LordAro: i was not asking in ottd context
13:53:05  <andythenorth> the goals here are pretty good
13:53:08  <LordAro> frosch123: do let me know if there's anything i can help with wrt compile farm/c++11/libraries tho
13:53:09  <frosch123> i just read fff, and found reaccuring themes from other sourcers
13:53:16  <LordAro> frosch123: ah yeah
13:53:19  <andythenorth> but “improve the user interface” leaves a gap as wide as a barn door for patchers
13:53:29  <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, that fff echoed my opinion of it quite we
13:53:31  <LordAro> well*
13:55:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: sometimes i think i am too old. about everything has been suggested and discussed before, i have settled my opinion on most, and i am tired of repeating the arguments :)
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13:57:01  <frosch123> LordAro: btw. compile farm for linux and osx seems to be about done, i have no information on the status for win
13:57:48  <andythenorth> I was reading a python module ticket edit war this week
13:58:03  <andythenorth> prevailing rule is, module maintainer’s word is law, unless Guido over-rides them
13:58:13  <andythenorth> or they piss off enough people and rage quit
13:59:19  <Wolf01> Roadmap for 1.8: improve the game
13:59:40  <andythenorth> :P
13:59:47  <Wolf01> ...fix bugs, add new bugs, feature new features
13:59:50  <andythenorth> there’s nobody who can be BDFL
14:00:04  <andythenorth> maybe we split up areas of concern, and find somebody whose word is law for each
14:00:22  <andythenorth> e.g. I am massively -1 to adding any further complexity to UI
14:00:38  <andythenorth> and mostly -1 to changing anything that is well established, without very good reason
14:00:39  <Wolf01> Remove the UI?
14:00:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, ottd has become very feature driven, in my imagination it was more refactoring driven in the past; i prefer the latter
14:01:05  <andythenorth> that is interesting
14:01:27  <frosch123> but well, may also be false memories :)
14:01:31  <andythenorth> maybe
14:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> c++ move, gui rewrite, "new map array", ...
14:02:22  <frosch123> competing pool rewrites :)
14:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of refactoring going on, with the intention to make more features
14:02:32  <andythenorth> for me, the best commits are the very small UI tweaks
14:02:49  <andythenorth> the most interesting problems are the extension of the content APIs
14:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is lots of refactoring to be found in cirdans branch
14:03:02  <andythenorth> refactoring I can’t play, I’m not a good enough programmer :P
14:05:06  <peter1138> step 1) play minecraft
14:05:50  <Wolf01> andythenorth: refactoring is like with lego, you do and undo trying to keep the functions working until you are satisfied
14:07:15  <andythenorth> I refactor newgrf continuously
14:07:20  <andythenorth> but not so much C++ :P
14:10:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: w.r.t actually doing something, not just words :)
14:10:51  <andythenorth> how much of that is nice-to-have ponies?
14:14:34  <LordAro> frosch123: about done?
14:18:02  <frosch123> LordAro: <- andy confirmed the osx binaries working
14:19:28  <andythenorth> hmm
14:19:40  <andythenorth> so this farm is reprocible, e.g. I could built it locally?
14:19:47  <andythenorth> reproducible *
14:20:01  <frosch123> the win part won't :)
14:20:21  <andythenorth> ha
14:20:28  * andythenorth thinking about patch packs etc
14:20:47  <frosch123> frosch123: i wondered whether we should jgrpp on frontpage
14:20:56  <frosch123> download A for stability, download B for features
14:21:18  <andythenorth> I think officially linked patchpacks is a thing
14:21:25  <frosch123> it all depends on how easy LordAro's new site is to use
14:21:26  <andythenorth> I think the description…could use work :P
14:21:37  <frosch123> initially i hoped gitlab would solve it :)
14:21:41  <andythenorth> I dispute that version A lacks features
14:21:57  <andythenorth> download B for dubious features :P
14:22:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: well, i am all fine with trunk doing refactoring, and someone else adding all the features
14:22:56  <andythenorth> +0.5 :P
14:23:12  <andythenorth> I would be happier with trunk refactoring AND adding more content APIs
14:24:17  <frosch123> i am fine with newgrf, but we have noone interested in ai/gs
14:25:05  <frosch123> about my only input in ai/gs was kicking people when they named stuff differently in different places
14:26:19  <andythenorth> did TB do NoGo?
14:26:28  <andythenorth> one day it just...appeared
14:26:37  <frosch123> tb did the base of both noai and nogo
14:26:45  <frosch123> yexo did the details of noai
14:27:09  <andythenorth> Zuu is awol? o_O
14:27:11  <frosch123> and zuu/albert/rb did the details of nogo
14:27:19  <andythenorth> ENoMaintainer
14:28:07  <andythenorth> so you can do core and newgrf
14:28:22  <andythenorth> I’ll just say ‘no’ to everything about UI, so I don’t even need commit rights to be maintainer
14:28:33  <andythenorth> alberth can review your stuff
14:28:42  <andythenorth> adf8* has his own thing going
14:28:57  <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause can be the official maintainer of the platonic ideal spec :)
14:29:10  <andythenorth> all neat and tidy, solved
14:29:22  <frosch123> well, i miss smatz :)
14:29:45  <andythenorth> I miss dalestan :P
14:29:50  <andythenorth> oh I missed peter1138
14:30:05  <andythenorth> peter1138 can maintain a list of random patches that he declares not good enough :)
14:30:32  <andythenorth> whilst also asking us why we make everything so complicated
14:30:39  <andythenorth> I’m 99% certain I employ a clone of peter1138
14:33:00  <peter1138> no use employing me
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14:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no use employing me either, but i found someone who does :p
14:45:12  <andythenorth> bbl
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15:21:17  <FrenkyPohodar> Hello. Would anyone be able to help with the openttd server? On win7 I released it as a didikate server, the ports are redirected and open. the rver seems to be running but I'm not able to connect to it, it seems like it's on-line it's server Cz / SK_Budujeme_mesta / City_Buildings, 5000pop (1921-2050) I got something wrong, but what? Thank you in advance for your advice and help.
15:22:10  <frosch123> <- it's listed there
15:22:14  <frosch123> so the problem is with the client
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16:43:59  <andythenorth> is it just me?
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16:50:25  <Wolf01> I can't understand for how much time I slept, is it friday yet?
16:51:42  <andythenorth> kinda
16:52:46  <andythenorth> so is ‘rage’ the natural destiny of all people who handle feature requests? o_O
16:55:46  <Wolf01> Nah
16:56:07  <Wolf01> You are taking the tasks too much seriously
16:57:03  <andythenorth> would you go for more lulz?
16:58:02  <peter1138> didikate? heh
16:59:42  <andythenorth> is ‘so what’ a valid response here?
17:02:51  <peter1138> heh
17:03:28  <andythenorth> things not a goal #238: pissing around with the vehicle payments
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17:05:07  <Alberth> imho he has somewhat of a point, trouble is that changing the payment alone is likely to cause havoc in other areas
17:06:18  <Alberth> ideally you'd fix it by changing the vehicle speed, I think
17:06:42  <_dp_> that patch does something weird, that shouldn't be required to just change profit formula
17:06:47  <peter1138> yeah but that causes havoc in other areas
17:06:49  <Alberth> that might break a lot of newgrfs?
17:06:56  <peter1138> yeah
17:07:14  <peter1138> the 28/32 pixel length difference is related
17:07:15  <Alberth> like "all newgrf"s  :p
17:07:33  <peter1138> if you fix the speed issue, 28 becomes the correct length after all
17:07:34  <Alberth> yeah, you'd want that fixed too then
17:07:46  <peter1138> so every set that uses 32 would be messed up
17:07:51  <peter1138> dbsetxl would be fine
17:07:53  <peter1138> and that's about it :p
17:08:01  <Alberth> haha :)
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17:09:25  <frosch123> peter1138: trains are 29 :p
17:09:31  <_dp_> Alberth, why change vehicle speeds? that won't help with manhattan distance payment
17:09:38  <peter1138> i thought it might be one of the two
17:09:40  <peter1138> either way :p
17:09:42  * andythenorth is looking for something to close, to get to 350 FS
17:09:49  <andythenorth> also…trying to learn what the goals are :P
17:09:59  <andythenorth> fools errand
17:10:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think the goal was to have fun
17:10:38  <_dp_> it may make sense to change diagonal lenght to match euclidean but it still does nothing wrt payment "fairness"
17:12:03  <peter1138> i don't understand the problem
17:12:10  <peter1138> "earning capacity increased" for trains?
17:12:22  <peter1138> isn't it increased for trains, planes and ships?
17:12:31  <peter1138> RVs lose out i guess
17:12:43  <peter1138> and then surely "that's just how it is"
17:12:46  <_dp_> you either use road metric aka manhattan which breaks trains or use train/plane distance which is not fair for rvs
17:13:18  <andythenorth> peter1138: it is how it is
17:13:20  <andythenorth> close :P
17:13:58  * andythenorth learning about newgrf airports
17:14:20  <peter1138> are they a thing?
17:14:32  <andythenorth> slightly
17:14:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think there was a majority for user-built airports
17:14:55  <andythenorth> weren’t there multiple failed patches, with extra drama?
17:15:00  <andythenorth> I think I missed it
17:15:18  <andythenorth> apparently We Are All Very Bad People, it’s somewhere on the internet
17:15:42  * peter1138 ponders razing this village
17:15:45  <peter1138> ah yes
17:15:47  <peter1138> we are
17:15:48  <andythenorth> anyway, this one actually pisses me off
17:15:49  <peter1138> for some reason
17:16:05  <andythenorth> there’s all this airport bollocks in the game
17:16:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- before i quit forums, i think there was a more modern patch for that
17:16:40  <andythenorth> how the hell does that ever work?
17:16:46  <andythenorth> newgrf state machines?
17:16:53  <peter1138> heh
17:17:01  <frosch123> no, either rv logic or pbs logic
17:17:03  <peter1138> what's wrong with more than one airport in a town?
17:17:05  <frosch123> well, or ship logic :p
17:17:39  <andythenorth> peter1138: some kind of bullshit in MP with griefing
17:17:53  <andythenorth> FS is making me wish MP would just go away
17:18:00  <andythenorth> Other People are A Problem
17:18:16  <andythenorth> or he’s chosen bad AIs
17:18:23  <andythenorth> that spam towns with airports
17:18:31  <andythenorth> like err…choose a different AI?
17:18:37  <andythenorth> "Oh noes there must be a setting"
17:18:58  * andythenorth grumbles
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17:22:05  <peter1138> oops just spent 34 xp levels enchanting something with no effect :(
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17:23:10  <andythenorth> I’m not really pissed off at Milsa :P
17:23:18  <andythenorth> I’m pissed off with all the airport bollocks :)
17:23:29  <andythenorth> limits, noise levels, faceted shit
17:23:55  <andythenorth> town var: number of airports
17:24:12  <andythenorth> airport or town cb: player tries to construct airport
17:24:19  <andythenorth> airport var: owner company
17:24:25  <andythenorth> return: allow, disallow
17:24:27  <andythenorth> job done
17:24:34  <andythenorth> delete: limits per town, noise limit
17:24:41  <andythenorth> [message ends]
17:25:03  <_dp_> andythenorth, and noone will ever use that coz newgrf
17:25:10  <andythenorth> [shrug]
17:25:20  <andythenorth> but all the feature requests can be closed
17:25:38  <_dp_> andythenorth, won't stop people from opening new ones :p
17:25:45  <andythenorth> that’s fine
17:25:55  <andythenorth> the game isn’t to stop feature requests
17:26:03  <andythenorth> the game is to close them having already won
17:26:24  <andythenorth> game / metagame
17:26:58  <_dp_> did I mention including newgrfs in savegame already?
17:27:08  <andythenorth> “anticipating user need”, can do consulting on that at €1000/day
17:27:23  <andythenorth> newgrfs can’t be included in savegame for [reasons]
17:27:31  <andythenorth> copyright bollocks probably
17:27:45  <andythenorth> yeah, no redistribution of some people’s grfs
17:28:04  <frosch123> you can certainly streamline the load process
17:28:23  <andythenorth> I never submit crash reports because I always have non-bananas grfs :P
17:28:28  <frosch123> like "you can't load this!" -> "would you like to download missing stuff?"
17:28:38  <_dp_> well, I own my negrfs so I'd like my servers to include them...
17:29:13  <frosch123> _dp_: include 256mb of 32bpp sprites in the samegame? :p
17:29:14  <_dp_> Problem with negrfs currents is that it's never worth to use them just for configuration
17:29:29  <andythenorth> this is ‘bug in newgrfs’?
17:29:40  <_dp_> frosch123, I don't have sprites in newgrfs, just some configuration bullshit :p
17:29:56  <andythenorth> newgrf planes shouldn’t use range, it’s a bug
17:31:40  <_dp_> btw, we currently do some server-side limiting on airports
17:31:53  <_dp_> it's max airports per company though, not per town
17:32:03  <frosch123> is there a difference between limiting airports and limitnig aircraft?
17:32:30  <_dp_> frosch123, ...
17:32:36  <andythenorth> on the face of it…yes...?
17:32:48  <frosch123> wrt. restricting gameplay
17:33:02  <_dp_> we have 5 airport limit and 100 aircrafts
17:33:25  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it depends on the map scaling
17:33:29  <andythenorth> can I actually close a FS saying aircraft range is a bug?
17:33:31  <ST2> we merged this: to apply some limitations
17:33:40  <ST2> maybe it's ugly.. but works xD
17:33:41  <frosch123> on a 1Mx1M map, you can have 10k planes with just 2 airports
17:34:14  <andythenorth> not all newgrf additions have been wise
17:34:42  <frosch123> like nrt :)
17:34:50  <andythenorth> not added yet :P
17:35:13  * andythenorth kills the kittens and closes the FS
17:35:55  <_dp_> limiting number of airports limits amount of resources that can be acquired with them (unlike limiting planes)
17:36:43  <frosch123> i would expect the reverse
17:36:53  <_dp_> in particular valuables, with 5 airports you can only connect 5 banks, not every bank on the map and cover town val requirements for eternity
17:37:11  <andythenorth> why not just disable planes?
17:37:24  <frosch123> ah, it's about "deliver some" goals
17:37:47  <frosch123> true, you can build a single plane which circles through 50 airports
17:37:49  <andythenorth> there’s GS for the goals?
17:38:17  <frosch123> i remember andy delivering farm supplies by plane
17:38:18  <andythenorth> ach, GS can’t have callbacks andythenorth is an idiot again :(
17:38:23  <frosch123> so i welcome the airport limit :)
17:38:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: tractors by plane
17:38:37  <andythenorth> and chainsaws
17:38:54  <andythenorth>
17:39:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, tile-based airports would solve everything
17:39:39  <frosch123> you can make the taxiway and runway shared like roads
17:39:49  <frosch123> and have each company have their terminal
17:39:51  <andythenorth> with player owned terminals?
17:39:53  <_dp_> I prefer to balance planes instead of disabling them, more variety is good, adds more options for the game tactics
17:40:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s crazy talk :P
17:40:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: only the terminal has a catchment area
17:40:25  <andythenorth> is there actually a viable implementation? o_O
17:40:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: why, i had a patch against r6907
17:40:35  <andythenorth> only 15k revisions old
17:40:43  <andythenorth> 21k actually
17:40:52  <frosch123> there have been at least 2 similar attemps on the forums
17:41:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: also, all the plane limit stuff is to prevent them being overpowered; but that completely ruins the fun in using them
17:41:59  <andythenorth> doesn’t it
17:42:04  <_dp_> having a terminal wouldn't hurt train/rv stations either to solve all that joining-catchement nonsense
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17:42:06  <andythenorth> so we have
17:42:16  <andythenorth> (1) town limit of airport by count
17:42:21  <andythenorth> (2) town limit by noise
17:42:35  <andythenorth> (3) irritating date restrictions on airport construction
17:42:37  <andythenorth> (4) plane range
17:42:41  <andythenorth> (5) plane speed factor
17:42:51  <andythenorth> and still planes aren’t fixed?
17:42:58  <andythenorth> what did we learn?
17:43:02  <frosch123> (6) infra cost
17:43:07  <frosch123> *maint
17:43:13  <andythenorth> oh that too
17:43:14  <andythenorth>
17:43:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, not enough settings :p
17:43:46  <andythenorth>
17:44:31  <_dp_> from economy viewpoint only plane speed matters and even 1/4 is not enough to nerf planes
17:45:05  <peter1138> "even 1/4" 1/4 is the standard
17:45:15  <andythenorth> I don’t understand this balancing bollocks?
17:45:21  <andythenorth> is balancing a goal?
17:45:33  <peter1138> apparently some people think the game is not about making a pretty railway layout :p
17:45:34  <frosch123> not for me :)
17:45:37  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's a goal for goal servers :p
17:45:42  <andythenorth> if all transport types must balance, wtf do we bother having all these transport types?
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27911 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt korean.txt) (2017-09-02 19:45:39 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:47  <andythenorth> it’s fricking stupid
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> korean: 1 change by telk5093
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> hebrew: 4 changes by dnd_man
17:46:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: can I make it official?  Balancing is not a goal?
17:46:30  <andythenorth> :P
17:46:48  <frosch123> it's a rewording of "do not change the game mechanics", right?
17:47:06  <andythenorth> town growth, ratings, etc?
17:47:15  <_dp_> just add "mp is not a goal" :p
17:47:16  <andythenorth> original industry production, economy
17:47:49  <andythenorth> how does minecraft do goal servers?
17:48:12  <_dp_> andythenorth, command blocks
17:48:39  <_dp_> and adventure mode or whatever is it called
17:48:57  <andythenorth> can’t find any goal servers for minecraft so far
17:49:35  <_dp_> andythenorth, idk about "goal" goal, put there are plenty of competitive ones
17:49:42  <_dp_> like missile wars
17:51:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: if I say it a few times, it becomes true?
17:51:35  <_dp_> oh, there is also builtin scoreboard in minecraft
17:52:20  <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't NRT changing game mechanics btw? ;)
17:52:36  <andythenorth> no
17:52:42  <andythenorth> [wavey hands]
17:52:54  <andythenorth> depends if we include the new icon for light rail :P
17:53:03  <andythenorth> nothing changes though
17:53:19  <frosch123> andythenorth:
17:53:29  <_dp_> andythenorth, how about roads that towns can't grow on?
17:53:50  <andythenorth> how about them? :)
17:53:55  <andythenorth> sounds like an idea
17:54:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: do I need to read all 14 pages? o_O
17:54:28  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, in current game mechanics town can grow on any road :p
17:54:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: actually p14 seems to be enough
17:54:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you can extract what people think about balancing
17:54:53  <andythenorth> TL;DR people are wrong?
17:54:57  <frosch123> by comparing what was suggested 10 years ago with what is suggested today
17:55:14  <andythenorth> ok
17:55:17  <andythenorth> I’ll read it
17:55:36  <andythenorth> unfortunately, like a politician, I already have my conclusion :(
17:55:41  <andythenorth> so I’ll just cherry pick evidence
17:56:10  <andythenorth> balancing is nonsense, newgrf can solve most problems, end of message
17:56:19  * andythenorth reading
17:56:28  <frosch123> too bad the pdf is not accessible
17:56:41  <andythenorth> I probably shouldn’t post all my notes here as I go eh :P
17:56:47  <_dp_> newgrfs are such a huge problem by themselves they hardly can solve anything :p
17:57:18  <andythenorth> I don’t think you can sustain that argument _dp_ :)
17:58:34  <_dp_> how many people was it who loaded any grf compared to game downloads? :p
18:00:00  <andythenorth> propose an alternative to modifying the game with content?
18:00:20  <andythenorth> every single foamer has to submit a patch to get their special train in the game?
18:00:28  <andythenorth> and we have a setting for every single one?
18:00:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: see, sense
18:01:29  <frosch123> :)
18:01:46  <frosch123> can we organise a shooting between _dp_, andy, pikka and dalestan?
18:02:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: can add richk67 to team _dp_
18:03:22  <frosch123> i do not know dalestan's opinion on aircraft range
18:03:41  <frosch123> dalestan coded planeset, so he probably would have one
18:03:47  <andythenorth> “don’t add newgrf features that break orders”?
18:03:52  <andythenorth> like the refit cb also
18:04:15  <frosch123> probably "newgrf parameter: let the user pick their destiny"
18:05:17  <andythenorth> reading this thread is painful :(
18:05:22  <andythenorth> it’s like a wall of wrong :(
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18:06:47  <andythenorth> “Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to…” is always followed by
18:07:00  <andythenorth> “…add a boatload more complexity to post-hoc make my crap pet idea work"
18:07:15  <andythenorth> The easiest solution would be to Drop The Crap Idea
18:07:28  <andythenorth> where’s V453000 when he’s needed?
18:07:31  <andythenorth> @summon V453000
18:07:32  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
18:09:00  <andythenorth> DJ Nekkid was doing really well here
18:09:04  <andythenorth> until ‘subways’
18:10:43  <frosch123> how does subways make it into the balance topic?
18:11:00  <andythenorth> the whole thing is endless ponies
18:11:13  <frosch123> yep :)
18:11:17  <andythenorth>
18:11:20  <frosch123> that's why i linked it :p
18:11:34  <andythenorth> I would like to print this out very large, and frame it
18:11:38  <andythenorth> then take a picture of it
18:11:49  <andythenorth> and post the picture at the top of every single feature request page
18:12:16  <_dp_> at this point I feel and hope that modding machinky will be a lot more easier than bothering with openttd
18:13:15  <frosch123> depends how many bugs it copies from ottd
18:13:23  <frosch123> factorio managed to copy quite a number
18:14:22  <Alberth> modding is easy, getting agreement between all players is the puzzle :p
18:15:45  <andythenorth> content-based modding eliminates the need for agreement
18:17:38  <andythenorth> Wolf01: o_O ?
18:18:29  <andythenorth> idiocy or elegant troll?
18:19:26  <frosch123> the follow-up post takes it serious
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18:21:28  <andythenorth> meanwhiel
18:21:32  <andythenorth> meanwhile *
18:21:55  <andythenorth> in or out?
18:23:45  <frosch123> too many graphic issues
18:23:52  <frosch123> it's like crossing bridges
18:24:01  <frosch123> implementing is easy, but it will glitch like hell
18:24:13  <andythenorth> out
18:24:26  <andythenorth> there’s a real one being planned in Norway, but eh
18:29:27  <andythenorth> closed
18:29:39  <andythenorth> I really like this idea
18:29:50  <andythenorth> but I think it’s much more complex than it sounds
18:30:52  <andythenorth> also it could be done in newgrf, but only if magic bulldozer is enabled
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18:35:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I love the style of engine on this
18:35:16  <andythenorth> single stud pistons
18:37:37  <andythenorth> FFS, the 7 year old’s favourite thing to do in the game is grow cities :(
18:37:41  <andythenorth> it’s like a plague
18:38:32  <frosch123> the most exciting thing for me at that age was the concorde
18:39:35  <_dp_> how is 2445 different from just funding?
18:40:10  <frosch123> and the biggest disappointment was that the airports were the bottleneck
18:40:55  <frosch123> _dp_: 2445 limits it to an area, like 128x128, which is significant when playing on 1Mx1M map
18:41:33  <andythenorth> it’s a great idea
18:41:40  <andythenorth> I’m going to add it to FIRS
18:41:53  <frosch123> how?
18:43:08  <_dp_> frosch123, ah, yeah, somewhat interesting
18:43:20  <_dp_> that fail chance is no go though for competitive servers
18:44:20  <_dp_> or should I say for competitive play
18:44:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: build a survey camp industry (very cheap)
18:44:51  <_dp_> since people compete on vanilla servers all the time
18:44:56  <andythenorth> then force primaries to locate near that if there is one on the map
18:45:12  <andythenorth> survey camp counts industries, and closes once a new primary has been built
18:45:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: make the camp close after 6 months
18:45:21  <andythenorth> (a) it’s a terrible BAD FEATURE
18:45:33  <andythenorth> (b) I can’t count all the industries, unless maybe I bitstuff enough
18:45:41  <andythenorth> (c) it’s annoying having to wait for closure :P
18:45:51  <frosch123> (d) users won't understand it
18:45:56  <andythenorth> (e) waste of time
18:47:25  <andythenorth> strikes me that doing it in game would work like:
18:47:33  <andythenorth> 1. select prospect
18:47:37  <andythenorth> 2. click on a tile
18:47:49  <andythenorth> 3. openttd tries to build within n tiles of that x,y
18:48:28  <frosch123> or a) select area b) spawn in area with probability depending on area size
18:49:39  <frosch123> though that's likely hard to explain
18:49:56  <andythenorth> seems like TMFTLB
18:50:04  <andythenorth> but it is annoying
18:50:19  <andythenorth> I like prospecting, but not so much on a large map
18:50:27  <andythenorth> it works great on 256x256 or smaller
18:50:33  <frosch123> well, i only used prospecing after connecting everything
18:50:38  <frosch123> so it's behaviour is quite fine
18:50:47  <frosch123> it just fails on stupid sized maps, but they fail anyway
18:51:33  <frosch123> it's just a mechanism to make the game continue
18:51:43  <frosch123> not to play industry giant
18:51:49  <andythenorth> I’m closing
18:52:00  <andythenorth> it _could_ be at least trialled in newgrf if wanted
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19:02:12  <y2000rtc> Hi there, it's me Zdenek again. I don't want to waste your time. I would like to ask you for help. I play TTD (OpenTTD) since when I was child and right now I want to edit two grf files. 1) edit grf of rail for to have rail with different speed but with the same graphics. Old one. There is many graphics of rails due to speed. I want to use different speed but with the same design.
19:02:32  <y2000rtc> What do you say for that. Someone who will find any time for me?
19:05:26  <Alkel_U3> if there is no source available, you'll likely need to run that grf through grfcodec to get NFO and learn to read and edit that.
19:06:00  <Alkel_U3> better yet, try contacting the author of that grf
19:06:50  <Alberth> there are two approaches, learn NML, and make a grf yourself, or decompile a grf to NFO, change the graphics, and re-assemble (and be sure to change the grfid as well toa avoid clashes)
19:07:04  <y2000rtc> I already tried to contact author. Without success. :(((
19:07:30  <y2000rtc> Ok Alkel, where and how to make steps which you mentioned please?
19:07:34  <Alberth> former is by far the cleanest
19:07:43  <Alkel_U3> maybe it would be easier to just learn NML and code it from scratch, NFO is very not human-friendly :-) (basically hex editing)
19:07:46  <andythenorth> fork Termite
19:08:04  <andythenorth>
19:08:14  <andythenorth> Termite uses baseset graphics for RAIL
19:08:17  <andythenorth> and ELRL
19:08:27  <andythenorth> fork Termite, add more railtypes, but with speed limits
19:08:44  <andythenorth> has to be built with Make though
19:08:49  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: ^^^^
19:09:15  <y2000rtc> Gentlemen, I'm really novice. So, I have to download some tool for decompiling of GRF file. After that I have to edit something and last step is to compile again.
19:09:23  <andythenorth> that is one route
19:09:30  <andythenorth> or find a grf that has src, and clone it
19:09:36  <y2000rtc> fork Termite is what?
19:09:37  <andythenorth> edit the src, compile it
19:09:41  <y2000rtc> Any SW?
19:09:50  <andythenorth> ‘fork’ just means ‘clone it and make your own version'
19:10:05  <andythenorth> Termite uses nml, which is easier than nfo
19:10:08  <Wolf01> We really need to do a web interface to build (simple) grfs...
19:10:16  <andythenorth> I posted in forums about it
19:10:25  <andythenorth> I think it’s a Terrible Idea
19:10:51  <frosch123> Wolf01: people do not want simple grfs, they want to modify existing complex grfs
19:11:04  <y2000rtc> Ok, how to use Termite? Download it and?
19:11:54  <y2000rtc> Sorry for my questions but I don't have any practice with that.
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19:12:53  <y2000rtc> Alkel?
19:13:43  <Alkel_U3> well, I'd say read through this
19:13:46  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: what operating system do you have?
19:14:41  <y2000rtc> Win7 but if is necessary I can make VM.
19:15:02  <andythenorth> most grfs use some extra build tools that work on Windows, but are hard to get setup
19:15:18  <andythenorth> generally they work out the box on Linux, and mostly on OS X
19:15:26  <y2000rtc> I can try it use on Win7, XP, ...
19:16:00  * andythenorth wonders if there’s a pure nml railtype grf
19:16:16  <andythenorth> ah, the example one
19:16:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: the postprocessor product is posted on bundles
19:16:38  <frosch123> *preprocessor output
19:16:52  <andythenorth> it is
19:17:17  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: how much do you want to learn this? o-O
19:17:50  <andythenorth> hmm 346 FS left
19:18:37  <y2000rtc> I have two goals. First one to edit easiest way grf for to have what I need and second one is to learn really a lot for to understand.
19:19:09  <andythenorth> ok I would suggest following agenda y2000rtc :)
19:19:30  <andythenorth> 1. get nml compiler
19:19:43  <andythenorth> 2. get source code for an existing grf (e.g. Termite, or nml example railtypes grf)
19:19:50  <andythenorth> 3. check you can compile existing grf
19:19:55  <andythenorth> 4. start editing to learn
19:20:36  <andythenorth> 5. when you’ve learnt a bit, try and make the grf you want, by copy-paste from one of the existing, throwing out what you don’t need, adding what you want
19:20:41  <y2000rtc> 1. where to get nml compiler sir?
19:20:51  <andythenorth> good 1
19:20:59  <andythenorth> good question *
19:21:07  <frosch123> explains it
19:21:12  <y2000rtc> 2. is it possible to use only grf file without source code?
19:21:35  <Alberth>  <-- it has download link
19:21:58  <andythenorth> for 2. only if you want to learn nfo (hex code)
19:22:02  <andythenorth> you likely don't
19:22:08  <Alberth> "use" as in play a game with it?
19:22:53  <andythenorth> this is well-laid out nfo
19:23:35  <Alberth> see the bottom of the tutorial page for a comparison between NML and NFO
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19:24:09  <Alberth> I would suggest you select the NML column for future use :)
19:25:10  <y2000rtc> ufff
19:25:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: does the UI have methods to resize windows when viewport changes size? o_O
19:26:05  <Alberth> I think so
19:26:26  <Alberth> or at least move them back into view
19:26:36  <andythenorth> so valid task?
19:27:46  <Alberth> not sure, Rb claims it's not
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19:28:07  <Alberth> maybe the window is not very resizable or so
19:28:21  <Alberth> don't understand why Rb says that
19:29:10  <andythenorth> he was just adjusting status
19:30:12  <Alberth> yes, because he doesn't see it as a bug
19:30:17  <andythenorth> industry windows are moved when I resize viewport
19:30:19  <Alberth> I don't know why
19:30:21  <andythenorth> so the methods exist
19:31:29  <andythenorth> newgrf window neither
19:31:43  <Alberth> it's just a function that walks through the window-stack :)
19:31:58  <Alberth> not all windows resize very well
19:32:24  <Alberth> maybe they stay centered?
19:32:29  <andythenorth> think they do
19:33:00  <Alberth> if they do, then that technically indeed counts as not a bug
19:33:08  <Alberth> since they are properly centered
19:33:15  <Alberth> just not in a useful way :p
19:33:52  <andythenorth> I’ve attached this conversation :P
19:33:57  <andythenorth> there’s nothing else I can do with that
19:33:59  <Alberth> from UX pov, it counts as bug :p
19:33:59  <andythenorth> can’t close
19:34:05  <andythenorth> can’t fix :P
19:34:17  <Alberth> not easily, likely
19:34:55  <andythenorth> not convinced that supporting resize-to-smaller is a big thing
19:34:59  <andythenorth> especially at game start
19:35:55  <Alberth> I sometimes do resize the window while playing, to make room for another window
19:36:02  <Alberth> but in general, I agree
19:36:18  <andythenorth> has to stay open?
19:36:46  <Alberth> I wasn't going to fix it, so I don't care either way
19:37:39  <y2000rtc> Thank you guys. Is not really easy to do it. Termite is about metro tracks. I want to have different rails of speed and the same graphics.
19:38:11  <frosch123> y2000rtc: you can also assign speed limits via orders
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19:38:19  <Alberth> I already run short on time for #6053 with all the things I am doing
19:38:39  <Alberth> Termite is train tracks, afaik
19:38:53  <y2000rtc> via orders? Please any details?
19:38:55  <Alberth> maybe it has tram tracks too?
19:39:18  <y2000rtc> I want that only for normal railways.
19:39:25  <frosch123> <- y2000rtc: see the "change speed limit" button?
19:39:26  * andythenorth checks termite
19:41:25  <y2000rtc> Ok, clear. What I want to do is to make a railway from station to station with different rails of speed. Arround station to go 40 km/h for example, after that 80 km/h and arround depo 20 km/h.
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19:42:56  <y2000rtc> I already have GRF file with that but for these speeds are used different designs of rails and I would like to use the same design. :)
19:44:02  <andythenorth> which grf is it?
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19:55:49  <y2000rtc> It is called NuTracks
19:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's really simple then, you grab the source of nutracks, and remove the parts that define how the rails look
19:58:31  <andythenorth> y2000rtc:
19:58:54  <andythenorth> actually
19:58:56  <andythenorth> better
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20:09:53  <andythenorth> frosch123: I made it to page 10 of celestar thread :P
20:10:15  <frosch123> impressive :)
20:10:25  <frosch123> how does it compare to fs?
20:10:32  <andythenorth> different
20:11:05  * andythenorth wonders
20:11:31  <andythenorth> this appears to pre-date newgrf industries, cargos, railtypes
20:11:34  <andythenorth> that can’t be right
20:11:35  <andythenorth> 2007
20:11:41  <andythenorth> I started FIRS in 2008
20:11:58  <frosch123> it's parallel
20:12:12  <frosch123> industry cargos were implemented in ottd in 2007
20:12:20  <andythenorth> more wisdom
20:12:42  <andythenorth> loads of stuff about planes again
20:14:15  <frosch123> i played a plane game once, it was fun, second game was boring
20:14:34  <andythenorth> this
20:14:46  <andythenorth> is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I want an API for :P
20:15:03  <andythenorth> everything else is either (1) dumb (2) good, but not OpenTTD (3) solved in newgrf
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20:18:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: finally, someone turns up talking sense in the thread :P
20:20:31  <frosch123> <- added the profit stuff to that page
20:20:52  <frosch123> what, you were part of it?
20:21:10  <andythenorth> apparently
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20:21:38  <frosch123> at least your opinion did not change :)
20:22:00  <andythenorth> I was right all along :P
20:22:15  <andythenorth> I should write some kind of economy spec
20:22:59  <frosch123> "(nfo) can be fund to write" (andy, 2009)
20:23:02  <frosch123> -d
20:23:25  <andythenorth> it was
20:23:27  <frosch123> oi, i forgot about p1sim
20:23:35  * andythenorth should have made a python compiler for nfo
20:23:37  <frosch123> what happened to that?
20:23:52  <frosch123> <- still online
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20:25:01  * andythenorth looks in map bits
20:25:05  <frosch123> hmm, it has a similar statistic as factorio
20:25:12  <frosch123> 100 lines per file on average
20:25:26  <frosch123> that's really weird to me...
20:25:39  <andythenorth> many many small files?
20:25:49  <frosch123> sometimes you have short files, but 100 on average? that means some files are a lot shorter
20:26:02  <andythenorth> our files look very big to me
20:26:02  <frosch123> you need at least 20 lines for #include
20:26:07  <andythenorth> but I only look in the big ones :P
20:26:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: 500-1000 sounds normal to me
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20:26:34  <frosch123> at 4k it tends to get tedious
20:27:01  <andythenorth> I mostly look in industry_cmd.cpp :P
20:27:07  <frosch123> oh... maybe i count header files wrong
20:27:13  <andythenorth> eh so I’ve had half an idea for a long time
20:27:14  <frosch123> headers can be really short without documentation
20:27:31  <andythenorth> I want to keep some kind of ‘economy health’ byte around
20:27:36  <andythenorth> preferably per tile
20:28:03  <andythenorth> accessible to newgrf, settable by gs (but not requiring gs callbacks)
20:28:18  <andythenorth> per tile might suck, might have to be per town
20:29:17  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thank you so much. Question due to repository. Is there any way how to download whole folder with source code? And *.pnml, what should be edited and compile to GRF? :(
20:29:55  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: one of these likely includes the full source
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20:31:43  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: great help, I'm still closer and closer to my goal. :D
20:33:10  * y2000rtc slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
20:33:24  <andythenorth> that’s not been said here for a while
20:34:46  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, I downloaded file NuTrack last version and there is only grf file. What I have to downloaded for to edited and make a grf?
20:35:22  <andythenorth> try
20:36:10  <andythenorth> also
20:36:20  <andythenorth> you likely won’t have anything on Windows that can run Make
20:37:07  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thanks again Andy. It looks much better. Right now I have to find right file for editing and there something change and after that make a new GRF file from that, or?
20:37:59  <andythenorth> there are instructions for getting make on windows
20:38:25  <andythenorth> but I would skip that for now
20:38:42  <andythenorth> you should have a folder, like nutracks-r252-source
20:38:50  <andythenorth> put the nutracks.nml file in there
20:39:06  <y2000rtc> ok
20:39:18  <andythenorth> ach, I don’t know how to use nmlc on windows though :P
20:39:48  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: :) Was already putted.
20:40:11  <andythenorth> there must be instructions for using nmlc on windows somewhere
20:40:39  <y2000rtc> nmlc is a software?
20:40:57  <andythenorth> yes
20:41:05  <y2000rtc> Yes, it is SW and I already have there.
20:41:18  <y2000rtc> Is working with some parametres. I used that.
20:41:34  <y2000rtc> It is working over CMD but which parameter must be putted?
20:41:46  <y2000rtc> Maybe there are the same like on a Linux.
20:42:04  <andythenorth> nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml
20:42:18  <andythenorth> swap ‘mygrf’ for ‘nutracks’ or so
20:42:18  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Great. :)
20:42:46  <andythenorth> it might _just_ compile
20:42:51  <andythenorth> if it does you get a grf
20:43:02  <andythenorth> otherwise it will throw some errors somewhere
20:44:20  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will do it. One question more. What to change for to use the same design Andy?
20:44:32  <andythenorth> one step at a time :)
20:45:26  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, but I have to change something before compile, or?
20:45:36  <andythenorth> first see if it compiles at all :)
20:45:49  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Whole folder must be moved to folder with nmlc?
20:46:06  <andythenorth> not sure on windows
20:46:09  <andythenorth> probably
20:46:36  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Otherwise how to define path?
20:46:55  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will try.
20:49:20  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: result: [Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
20:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to run the makefile properly, then
20:51:57  <andythenorth> ach, it needs some custom tags :(
20:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> VERSION comes from a file "custom_tags.txt" or so, which the makefile fills with the revision (or some other identifying version detail)
20:52:24  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: open lang/english.lng
20:52:38  <andythenorth> delete {VERSION}
20:52:40  <andythenorth> on line 2
20:53:10  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that solve anything?
20:53:20  <andythenorth> should get it compiling
20:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> just install mingw, and you can run make.
20:55:41  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, working. :) GRf was made
20:55:49  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: ufff
20:57:02  <y2000rtc> People, have you already seen New game created like a new style of TTD. :) Puzzle style of building and after that 3D. Looks great.
20:57:58  <andythenorth> there’s a few out there
20:58:20  <andythenorth>
20:58:26  <andythenorth>
20:59:04  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hmm. Interesting.
21:04:19  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: So, now I have to find parameter for choosing design and this one to change to the same everytime. Or?
21:05:28  <andythenorth> you want base set (origina) rails only?
21:05:32  <andythenorth> or Nutracks rails?
21:06:02  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I want to set original design to all rails in NuTracks.
21:07:24  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: In NuTracks it is the slowest rail.
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21:09:31  <andythenorth> look for  graphics {} blocks
21:09:37  <andythenorth> delete everything inside them
21:09:43  <andythenorth> probably works
21:09:53  * andythenorth hasn’t coded any railtypes, but eh
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21:13:50  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: A lot of findings.
21:21:46  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Just deleting whole blocks?
21:21:56  <andythenorth> everything between graphics {}
21:22:16  <andythenorth> that should restore defaults
21:27:18  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Done, I'm going to try it.
21:29:26  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/standard-gauge/RAIL.pnml", line 34: Syntax error, unexpected  token "}" Included from: "<stdin>", line 36
21:29:39  <andythenorth> what’s on line 36?
21:29:48  <andythenorth>
21:30:32  <andythenorth> maybe graphics block can’t be empty, or maybe it’s an extra / missing { or }
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21:33:13  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: 		underlay:        ground_switch_underlay_RAIL;
21:33:58  <y2000rtc> andythenorth:
21:34:34  <andythenorth> hmm
21:35:03  <andythenorth> getting late for me to figure that out :P
21:35:25  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: :)
21:35:34  <andythenorth> most people probably going to bed
21:35:55  <andythenorth> try tomorrow?
21:36:06  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Offcourse. Thank you so much. Tomorrow is great.
21:36:32  <andythenorth> np
21:36:34  <andythenorth> bye
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22:36:00  <Wolf01> 'night
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