Log for #openttd on 3rd September 2017:
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06:05:30  <andythenorth> o/
06:11:57  <andythenorth> milek7: o/
06:18:33  <andythenorth> oops, tab doesn’t ffw real life, just openttd :P
06:26:05  <Alberth> o/
06:26:37  <andythenorth> lo Alberth :)
06:27:19  <Alberth> daylength in RL would be more useful, imho :p
06:27:46  <andythenorth> somewhat
06:27:58  <andythenorth> it can be faked by focussing
06:28:10  <andythenorth> but sometimes external obligations make that hard
06:29:03  <Alberth> hmm, in my experience, time speeds up when you're focussed :)
06:29:56  <Alberth> also, tea could be useful now
06:29:59  <andythenorth> needs a bug report
06:30:02  <andythenorth> and a feature request
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06:40:05  <Alberth> nah, doesn't work
06:41:46  <andythenorth> time for my occasional adventure into industry_cmd.cpp
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07:16:16  <andythenorth> hmm
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07:31:34  <peter1138> why was i awake until 3am :S
07:32:29  <andythenorth> minecraft
07:32:36  <peter1138> true
07:32:46  <peter1138> well, best be off out on the bike
07:32:50  <andythenorth> fair
07:43:25  <andythenorth> :o
07:43:31  <andythenorth> where did all these airports come from?
07:43:47  <andythenorth> there are 8 versions just of small airport, now in trunk
07:47:02  <andythenorth> oh it’s OGFX+ Airports :)
07:49:00  <Alberth> I wondered already how you managed that :)
07:49:16  <andythenorth> hidden features :P
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07:54:36  <ic111> andythenorth: As you cleaned up the bugtracker now - should I create tickets for the two bigger patches I wrote (timetables, new river generator), or doesn't this matter in fact?  After all, I publish new versions in the forum anyway, so such a ticket would probably contain a link to the forum thread...
07:54:49  <andythenorth> ic111: I would discuss here first
07:55:06  <andythenorth> you need to get lucky on a day when a few devs are (1) here (2) in a mood to discuss it
07:55:22  <ic111> Discussing them is a long-term-issue anyway...
07:55:31  <ic111> I don't expect to discuss them in one day...
07:55:46  <andythenorth> at the moment, based on dev interests/priorities, I think there’s a low chance of getting them through :)
07:56:06  <andythenorth> better rivers would be a nice pony IMHO
07:56:08  <andythenorth> but eh
07:58:46  <andythenorth> ic111: is better rivers in JGR’s patch pack?
07:58:56  <ic111> AFAIK no
07:59:42  <ic111> Integrating them into a patch pack would probably be possible without too much work
08:00:11  <ic111> ... as (beside a refactoring of the mapgen GUI), the patch queue adds new code, but doesn't touch existing code
08:00:53  <andythenorth> ic111: where’s the repo for it? o_O
08:00:56  * andythenorth might try and compile
08:01:37  <ic111> wait a moment...
08:04:07  <ic111> Here is the latest patch queue, which applied against trunk in April:
08:04:15  <ic111> ... and here is somewhat older windows binary:
08:04:25  <andythenorth> no github? o_O
08:04:43  <andythenorth> I think official policy for patches is still mercurial patch queues :P
08:04:59  <ic111> yes, I was told so
08:05:15  <ic111> I have read that you don't like them
08:05:33  <andythenorth> [shrug]
08:06:08  <andythenorth> the github route makes more sense to me, patches are isolated and lost imho
08:06:17  <andythenorth> but I’m not a dev or reviewer
08:07:22  <ic111> For me, given that I am somewhat familiar with the hg way now, it's just a question of how much time do I invest in organizing source code (learn a new kind of version control system), and how much time do I invest into the code itself.
08:07:33  <andythenorth> fair
08:08:33  <andythenorth> so much stuff in JGR Patchpack
08:08:39  <andythenorth> not sure where to begin testing :P
08:08:49  <andythenorth> ship collision avoidance doesn’t work though
08:09:07  <ic111> never heard of that
08:09:57  <andythenorth> it’s a patch
08:10:01  <ic111> But if you avoid ship collisions - doesn't this trigger the need for extended path finding?
08:10:26  <ic111> If two ships meet in a narrow part of the ocean, and can't pass - what happens?
08:11:14  <andythenorth> dunno
08:11:17  <andythenorth> waste of time IMHO
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08:19:09  <Alberth> avoid is a lot softer than remove/eliminate
08:19:45  <Alberth> ie it doesn't promise collisions wont happen
08:20:29  <andythenorth> I tested it, and ships still sail along 100% over-lapping
08:20:37  <andythenorth> so it ain’t adding much :P
08:21:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: I fixed a FS :o
08:21:37  <andythenorth>
08:22:50  <Alberth> perhaps if they meet in opposite direction?
08:25:04  <Alberth> moving speed to top-left corner in the display?
08:25:44  <Alberth> centered on engine is also quite useless, as 1/2 the display is not used
08:27:38  <andythenorth> dunno what my fix does on RTL languages
08:27:58  <andythenorth> but I am often having to make vehicle windows wider to see the speed
08:28:03  <andythenorth> yak-shaving
08:28:27  <Alberth> you know you posted an image only, right?
08:28:31  <andythenorth> yup
08:28:45  <andythenorth> if it’s viable I’ll make a patch, otherwise eh
08:28:54  <andythenorth> changing all the lang strings is a lot of faff :P
08:29:16  <Alberth> sed is the magic word there :p
08:29:21  <andythenorth> it just shuffles the parameters around
08:29:50  * andythenorth was amused to be able to actually fix something
08:29:59  <Alberth> It feels like it needs a word in front
08:30:10  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has the same Z-shaped learning curve that Zope community ran into
08:30:17  <andythenorth> small small things are very easy
08:30:25  <andythenorth> creating illusion of rapid progress
08:30:31  <andythenorth> everything else is nearly impossible
08:30:38  <andythenorth> so going backwards
08:31:00  <Alberth> all the in-between stuff mostly works
08:31:13  <Alberth> unless you take out whole parts
08:31:32  <Alberth> +have to
08:34:50  <andythenorth> this zoning patch is in JGR
08:34:58  <andythenorth> at first test, it seems really useful
08:35:02  <andythenorth> intrerface is….odd
08:38:33  <Alberth> catchment area is quite complicated
08:38:49  <andythenorth> yup
08:39:00  <andythenorth> it’s somewhere on a frosch to-do list
08:39:03  <Alberth> biggest problem iirc is that things are not always the same
08:39:19  <andythenorth> I was using it for local authority display only
08:39:44  <andythenorth> seems straightforward there
08:39:56  <andythenorth> problem is, people will want a generic solution for All The Things :|
08:40:02  <andythenorth> perfect is the enemy of good, again
08:44:12  <Alberth> just city authority could work
08:44:41  <Alberth> I never need that information though
08:45:31  <andythenorth> I need it when I’m planting trees to placate LA
08:45:48  <andythenorth> or in silicon valley, where industries have to be built in specific town
08:49:01  <andythenorth> be better as a toggle on transparency palette
08:49:05  <andythenorth> but eh
08:49:19  <andythenorth> newgrf tile overlays :P
09:00:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s wrong with you ‘close adjacent level crossings’ patch?
09:01:01  <andythenorth> it’s in JGR PP, seems to work so far
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09:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mostly converting old savegames safely (i.e. a setting which is enabled for new games and disabled for old games by default, and a serious warning to change that mid-game)
09:02:37  <andythenorth> no setting, just migrate it to be standard behaviour?
09:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no. vehicles will crash if you just enable it
09:14:16  <andythenorth> gosh
09:14:23  <andythenorth> polyline building tool is super annoying
09:20:33  <andythenorth> as is build-and-refit
09:20:57  <Alberth> depends on what you're used to?
09:22:03  <Alberth> not that it matter much, as you mostly clone anyway
09:22:23  <andythenorth> build-and-refit adds an extra toggle button to buy menu
09:22:31  <andythenorth> which makes very cluttered and confusing
09:22:46  <andythenorth> either you want that feature, or you don’t
09:22:52  <andythenorth> no need to toggle it per purchase :P
09:23:31  <andythenorth> I was hoping for more gold in this patchpack TBH
09:23:57  <andythenorth> all it’s doing is re-inforcing my prejudice that Improving the Game is Now Hard
09:24:09  * andythenorth does not mean that to sound grumpy
09:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no worry, it totally does :p
09:25:36  <andythenorth> this patchpack is awesome :)
09:25:51  <andythenorth> it shows that over the years, basic OpenTTD has become really good :)
09:26:11  <andythenorth> and that there are some nice ideas for patches, but actually everything is already fine :)
09:26:14  <andythenorth> better?
09:27:15  <Alberth> it shows that changes need to be considered more thoroughly, perhaps
09:28:35  <andythenorth> so far, the game seems about twice as dense in JGR patchpack
09:28:51  <andythenorth> unassailable learning curve
09:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: another tricky part about the adjacent level crossing patch is that if you want to add diagonal crossings on top of it, the adjacent crossings must be enabled
09:29:35  <andythenorth> complex eh
09:32:52  <andythenorth> is there a console command to show active blitter?
09:32:58  <andythenorth> I have looked in wiki and list_cmds
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09:43:40  <ic111> As I had a look / fixed the issues LordAro told me about the timetables patch two weeks ago yesterday - what´s your opinion about the desired (minimum) size of the timetable window?
09:43:45  <ic111> See here for a screenshot
09:44:17  <ic111> My problem is, that in fact the first line (currently) needs the width I distributed.
09:44:36  <ic111> Of course I could gain some space by shorter labels, but not much
09:44:42  <LordAro> a screenshot in the default font would perhaps be more useful
09:44:53  <LordAro> but, can it not be split into 2 lines?
09:45:09  <LordAro> it looks like at least "Timetable length.." could be on the next line
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09:45:28  <andythenorth> UI design is hard :)
09:45:30  <Alberth> "Vehicle" is totally useless, as is "Timetable" on that white line
09:45:45  <andythenorth> Celestar1 so where is your legendary economy PDF then? o_O
09:45:50  <ic111> Hm, the second line contains an (optional) name of the timetable which I use for arrival / departure boards
09:46:08  <ic111> I could shorten Timetable Length to Length
09:46:38  <andythenorth> is it an option to light the current timetable implementation on fire, and start again?
09:46:42  <ic111> I made it that verbose, since at this point, you must distinguish the property of the timetable and the property of the vehicle
09:46:43  <andythenorth> all of it
09:47:07  <ic111> I.e., the timetable has one global start, and then you have n vehicles with different offsets
09:47:44  <ic111> Thus, if a vehicle has offset two months, then the start of the timetable might be 1st January, but the start of the vehicles timetable is 1st March
09:47:45  <andythenorth> LordAro: know anything about the blitters? o_O
09:48:15  <ic111> So, yes, I might shorten the labels, but I feared that then people won´t realize how it works
09:48:44  <LordAro> andythenorth: precious little
09:49:08  <LordAro> but,
09:49:11  <andythenorth> this patch fails in way too many places for me to have a clue
09:49:11  <LordAro> @topic get 3
09:49:11  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:49:11  <andythenorth>
09:49:12  <LordAro> :p
09:49:23  <andythenorth> maybe I could dig it out of JGR’s github
09:49:29  <Alberth> offset can't be related to timetable, can it?
09:49:42  <ic111> I don´t understand your question
09:50:11  <ic111> The OrderList has a start date
09:50:15  <Alberth> you are explicit over timetable vs vehicle
09:50:17  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you ever use timetables? o_O
09:50:30  <ic111> A vehicle has an offset against that OrderList
09:50:34  <Alberth> but I don't see how a timetable has an offset
09:50:51  <ic111> Start date plus offset result in the vehicle-local start date
09:50:56  <Alberth> so "offset" has only one meaning then
09:51:05  <ic111> Yes.
09:51:13  <Alberth> and it doesn't need "vehicle" in front
09:51:13  <ic111> It´s a property of the vehicle
09:51:29  <ic111> In this way, you are right, I can remove it
09:51:53  * andythenorth reads the wiki about timetables
09:51:55  <ic111> Maybe I should add a reasonable tooltip with the explanation?
09:52:05  <Alberth> do you have vehicle start?
09:52:31  <Alberth> hmm, likely you do
09:53:02  <LordAro> andythenorth: i'll have a look
09:53:18  <ic111> The arrivals the vehicle presents you below are (should be) in the range [vehicle_start, vehicle_start + timetable_length[
09:53:27  <andythenorth> I can’t find a branch in
09:53:32  <LordAro> website recreation is making progress
09:53:40  <andythenorth> was hoping for a clean branch, JGR’s patch is probably just old
09:53:50  <andythenorth> his PP is close to recent trunk
09:53:57  <Alberth> maybe rename one f the "start" to "begin" or something else
09:54:42  <Alberth> andy, hardly using time tables, they are not very resistent against breakdowns
09:54:59  <andythenorth> I am unable to comment on any of the timetable stuff
09:55:10  <andythenorth> I keep trying to learn what the goal is, but it doesn’t stick
09:55:22  <Alberth> "almost useless" is a good summary :p
09:55:37  <andythenorth> I have tried following the instructions, but either the instructions are broken
09:55:40  <andythenorth> or OpenTTD is broken
09:55:44  <andythenorth> or I did it wrong
09:55:58  <Alberth> I think you covered all the options :p
09:56:04  <andythenorth> I fail to understand how it adjusts the vehicle speeds
09:56:12  <andythenorth> that seems to violate the idea that newgrf controls vehicle speed
09:56:14  <Alberth> it involves a few tricks to get it running
09:56:31  <Alberth> it doesn't change speed
09:56:35  <andythenorth> wiki says it does
09:56:38  <ic111> Regarding breakdowns: As in real world, I always add some extra time for unexpected events, i.e. if a vehicle in optimal circumstances needs 10 days for a distance, I assign 11 or 12.
09:56:41  <Alberth> it adds waiting time in stations
09:56:55  <andythenorth> "as well as specifying a maximum speed at which the vehicle should travel along that section of its journey"
09:57:01  <ic111> plus a reasonable waiting time at the end of the line, before the vehicle starts into the opposite direciton
09:57:12  <andythenorth> “Each vehicle speeds up or slows down depending on whether it is late or early according to the timetable."
09:57:21  <andythenorth> idea seems flawed to me
09:57:38  <andythenorth> slowing down the vehicle just makes any following vehicles late
09:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: timetables can already limit speed
09:57:40  <ic111> is (in my personal playing style) part of the fun, designing things a way where they are robust, even if some breakdowns happen
09:58:06  <andythenorth> anyway, there’s no mileage in a hot air argument about timetables :)
09:58:12  <andythenorth> we’re stuck with them :)
09:58:18  <andythenorth> maybe ic111 is going to fix them
09:58:56  * andythenorth wonders about multiplayer coop game using JGR patchpack
09:59:04  <ic111> But, regarding layout, then I try to shorten some labels, decrease width of the dialog somewhat, but don´ t touch the core layout
09:59:08  <LordAro> andythenorth: largely failing because of;a=commit;h=206a0838e995fe74aae3867f93feb0aaf2acb219
10:00:29  <andythenorth> can’t tell if JGR has fixed that
10:00:53  <LordAro> well i'd imagine so :p
10:01:00  <LordAro> let me see if i can find a commit in his branch
10:01:19  <andythenorth> he’s at 27893, so looks like it should be fixed
10:04:22  <LordAro> nope, doesn't look like it's in his PP
10:05:42  <LordAro> looks like frosch's commit did quite a bit of what JJ's patch did though, let me see if i can update
10:07:21  <_dp_> o/
10:07:32  <_dp_> polyrail is very nice, vastly increases building speed :p
10:07:45  <_dp_> only starcraft maniacs like solo don't use it xD
10:09:57  <andythenorth> adds yet another button to the construction toolbar
10:10:03  <andythenorth> makes me twitch
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10:10:21  <_dp_> andythenorth, just remove other 5 :p
10:10:26  <andythenorth> detects some slopes, and fails on others
10:10:39  <andythenorth> so you release mouse button to build, but it just fails
10:11:10  <_dp_> it's same as regular autorail on slopes
10:11:17  <andythenorth> in fact it just doesn’t work
10:11:33  <andythenorth> I drag straight and diagonal sections, and it only builds one of them
10:11:35  <andythenorth> total shit
10:11:51  <andythenorth> no point being nice about it, it’s just broken
10:12:17  <_dp_> andythenorth, a lot of people happily use it :p
10:12:44  <_dp_> bulding two segments doesn't quite fit openttd network commands
10:13:02  <_dp_> so it always builds only one
10:13:20  <_dp_> it's basically an autorail that remembers last point, nothing more
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10:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a terrible design
10:13:46  <Wolf01> o/
10:13:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s complete crap
10:14:00  <_dp_> it may not be the best design possible but it's still much better than autorail :p
10:14:03  <andythenorth> worth you getting JGR’s patchpack to test it
10:14:14  <andythenorth> I hate UIs that lie to people
10:14:52  <Alberth> o/ W
10:15:15  <andythenorth> Wolf01: o/
10:15:27  <andythenorth> your measure tools are in JGR’s pack Wolf01 :)
10:15:29  <andythenorth> what are they for?
10:15:36  <Wolf01> Measure distances?
10:15:57  <andythenorth> what’s wrong with counting tiles with my fingers?
10:16:04  <andythenorth> like I have to when testing industry placement rules
10:16:07  <Wolf01> Distance and height difference between starting point and end point
10:16:21  <_dp_> andythenorth, I'll call you next time I'll need to find two towns on 230 tiles distance :p
10:16:34  <andythenorth> Wolf01 should be on the land-area information global button
10:16:41  <andythenorth> not landscape toolbar
10:16:43  <Wolf01> Did he integrate them with all other drag&drop tools?
10:16:49  <andythenorth> try it :)
10:16:58  <andythenorth> JGR patchpack clean compiles for me
10:17:21  <andythenorth> I think for any current discussion of features, JGR patch-pack is required viewing
10:17:22  <Wolf01> I was planning to automatically get distance and height difference when d&d
10:17:57  <andythenorth>
10:18:05  <Wolf01> Maybe even the cost instead of using shift
10:18:11  <andythenorth>
10:18:12  <Wolf01> Fuck shift
10:19:21  <andythenorth> cost of what?
10:19:30  <andythenorth> oh as a tooltip for autorail etc?
10:19:34  <Wolf01> Yes
10:19:48  <andythenorth> maybe
10:19:50  <Wolf01> I don't have the shift on my tablet
10:19:57  <Wolf01> I don't even have the ctrl
10:20:03  <andythenorth> measure tool would be useful for newgrf dev
10:20:14  <Wolf01> But I bound that to a gesture which enables and disables it
10:20:16  <andythenorth> dunno if you’ll find anyone to commit it though :P
10:20:25  <andythenorth> it’s quite a niche thing
10:21:10  <_dp_> btw in citymania client land info tool does the measurement when d&d
10:21:31  <andythenorth> is it good?
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10:21:44  <andythenorth> I wondered about doing that
10:21:57  <_dp_> works fine for me
10:22:05  <andythenorth> does it also tell you the properties of every tile in the dragged region?
10:22:28  <_dp_> andythenorth, no, it only tells properties on one tile click, and d&d does measurement
10:22:39  <andythenorth> odd heuristic
10:22:40  <nahkiss> Hey, I'm running a dedicated server and have hard time figuring out how to start a new game with new generated map. What I'm missing here?
10:22:51  <_dp_> may not be a very good interface choice but saves hotkeys xD
10:23:00  <andythenorth> hotkeys are evil
10:23:05  <andythenorth> so are buttons and toggles
10:23:10  <andythenorth> and mag
10:23:12  <andythenorth> magic *
10:24:06  <Wolf01> nahkiss: open the console and type "newgame"
10:24:15  <Wolf01> Maybe with rcon
10:24:28  <nahkiss> Wolf01: yeah tried that (with rcon) and I get the same map but fresh game
10:24:58  <nahkiss> Like, cities and stuff change place but there's 2 lakes on the exact same spot, etc.
10:24:59  <Wolf01> That should be the "restart" behaviour
10:25:01  <andythenorth> it’s the game settings crap
10:25:29  <nahkiss> Some openttd.cfg option I need to change?
10:25:30  <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, I forgot, landinfo in cmclient works on hovering
10:25:34  <Wolf01> nahkiss: try newgame [somerandomnumber]
10:25:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, so when you hover it's land info and click-and-drag its measurement
10:25:50  <LordAro> andythenorth: hmm. i do believe that JJ's patch supersedes r27796
10:25:55  <LordAro> if i'm reading this correctly
10:26:01  <nahkiss> Wolf01: nope, still the same landscape
10:26:06  <andythenorth> hover is evil on touch :P
10:26:21  <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is evil on touch :p
10:26:30  <andythenorth> :)
10:26:59  <andythenorth> LordAro: can we swap out one for the other?  Paste instead of patch? :P
10:26:59  <Wolf01> nahkiss: try with -1
10:27:31  <Wolf01> Or with 4294967295
10:27:42  <nahkiss> hold on, newgame [randomnumber] didn't actually change the seed, checked with "getseed"
10:27:53  <nahkiss> I guess this has to be manually edited on the openttd.cfg
10:28:32  <Wolf01> nahkiss: No, I read the code and it's the evilest thing I've ever read
10:29:21  <LordAro> andythenorth: hehe, not quite
10:29:41  <Wolf01> If using "newgame" doesn't work in multiplayer, then it's broken in more parts than I thought
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10:31:58  <_dp_> citymania server patch has this line somewhere in it: _settings_newgame.game_creation.generation_seed = GENERATE_NEW_SEED;
10:32:07  <_dp_> coz can't be bothered with this stupid shit :p
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10:34:03  <Wolf01> Yeah, I changed that too in my tries, mainly because it's a waste to set it as random seed and then check again if it's GENERATE_NEW_SEED to set it as random
10:34:45  <Wolf01> BTW, rcon newgame works for me, 1.7.1
10:34:53  <Wolf01> nahkiss: which version you are using?
10:35:01  <nahkiss> 1.7.1
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10:40:47  <LordAro> andythenorth: well that didn't work
10:40:57  <LordAro> let me try something else
10:41:39  <Wolf01> Lolwhat?
10:43:09  <andythenorth> looks good
10:44:27  <LordAro> yeah, that's better
10:44:39  <LordAro> reverted previous patch, JJ's patch applies cleanly(ish)
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10:45:14  <LordAro> let me tidy the diff up, then i'll submit to FS
10:46:34  <andythenorth> :)
10:47:42  <Wolf01> nahkiss: if you are using rcon, did you set the right password? It fails silently if not, also rcon passwf "newgame [seed]" <- quotes are required
10:47:52  <Wolf01> Also, lunch
10:48:03  <nahkiss> ah, missing quotes I guess
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11:18:34  <andythenorth> wtf
11:18:40  <andythenorth> stations on bridges over stations
11:18:52  <andythenorth> imagine the newgrf drawing headache with that :P
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11:27:26  * andythenorth found this
11:27:33  <andythenorth> even though it’s pointless
11:27:39  <andythenorth> it’s quite fun updating it to be accurate
11:31:51  <andythenorth> ha ha ha
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11:48:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But how else can we make a realistic model of Tamworth?
11:48:42  <ic111> Regarding, I just had a look into some of the threads, and to be honest, for some of them the thread doesn´t make clear why they hit "Rejected" state.  E.g. this is one of the last comments regarding custom bridge heads - it reads like a usual review comment, at least at the end of the thread I don´t see re
11:48:50  <ic111> (hope this is no double post, had some connection problems)
11:49:12  <andythenorth> I have labelled them rejected, because they’ve been discussed here N times
11:49:15  <andythenorth> and they won’t make it
11:50:19  <ic111> Now I am curious - for this particular one, do we talk about serious technical problems, why it´s hard to impossible to implement, or about some kind of "we don´t like it"
11:50:45  <andythenorth> that depends which dev you get the opinion of
11:50:54  <andythenorth> broadly, not interesting to anyone
11:51:05  <ic111> At first glance, if someone manages to implement that in a proper way, I personally would say, why not have the additional rail connections?
11:51:32  <andythenorth> this might help me, I need to try and write some words for the wiki
11:52:08  <andythenorth> 1. the default expectation for all patches is ‘Rejected’, but that’s not made explicit because somehow it’s thought to be bad
11:52:35  <andythenorth> 2. rational technical/gameplay/codestyle reasons are often sought to justify rejection, this is the wrong approach
11:52:43  <andythenorth> the reasons should be found instead for inclusion
11:53:06  <andythenorth> finally, the major thing that gets something included is ‘Dev was interested and no other devs blocked them'
11:53:22  <andythenorth> so the primary criteria for successful patch is ‘dev was interested'
11:53:52  <ic111> This is clear
11:54:08  <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s widely clear :)
11:54:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The problem is that there are almost no active devs
11:54:27  <andythenorth> the mental model seems to be of some pipeline / rational process where all patches will proceed if they are technically good enough
11:54:30  <andythenorth> that is wrong
11:54:57  <andythenorth> FLHerne: no that’s a factor, not The Problem
11:55:10  <andythenorth> if you read forums back to 2007/2008 there were a shitload of active devs
11:55:12  <FLHerne> Which turns almost all external commits into "rejected" by default, which prevents anyone new from becoming active
11:55:22  <andythenorth> but still same complaints about non-moving patches
11:55:48  <ic111> But, at this point, a "Rejected" state reads like a very fundamental decision, for "technical / gameplay / codestyle" reaons, as you describe in (2)
11:55:54  <FLHerne> Ok, a problem is that there are no active devs
11:56:12  <FLHerne> So that everything gets "rejected" simply because no-one's really looking at them
11:56:34  <FLHerne> When there were active devs who still weren't looking at them, it was a different problem :P
11:56:46  <ic111> For me, this is the message "feature is not worth for investing time into it, if you want to contribute something to the game"
11:57:16  <FLHerne> And yes, 'rejected' is clearly the wrong word for the concept you describe
11:57:21  <ic111> But IMHO, you cannot know how people react to a particular patch, before you implemented it.
11:57:59  <andythenorth> fair
11:58:03  <andythenorth> I am curious about the wiki
11:58:06  <andythenorth> is it useful?
11:58:14  <andythenorth> or should it be burnt to the ground?
11:58:26  <ic111> I use it quite seldom, to be honest
11:59:24  <FLHerne> There are definitely useful things on the wiki
11:59:43  <FLHerne> Like the categorised lists of newgrfs, and the tutorial
12:00:19  <ic111> Regarding the "Requested features" page, IMHO it can be a very useful summary about development state
12:00:27  <FLHerne> Last I saw, the settings documentation was mostly useless though (pre-reorganisation)
12:01:28  <andythenorth> LordAro: blitter works for me, thanks
12:02:01  <andythenorth> I think unhelpful stuff is worse than nothing
12:02:03  <andythenorth>
12:02:08  <andythenorth> ^ that’s basically all wrong
12:02:24  <andythenorth> overlaps with the list of requested features
12:03:13  <andythenorth> this seems to duplicate again
12:03:18  <andythenorth> to what end I don’t know
12:03:50  <andythenorth> this is 50% perfect and 50% absolute rubbish
12:04:05  <eekee> (12:18:40) andythenorth: stations on bridges over stations
12:04:05  <eekee> yesss! gimme!!!
12:04:14  <LordAro> andythenorth: :)
12:05:07  <andythenorth> eekee: why?
12:06:32  <eekee> andythenorth: because i make these insane networks with everything almost on top of everything else anyway XD
12:09:00  <ic111> Stations on bridges IMHO is a candidate, where I personally would probably like it in terms of gameplay, but where (given knowledge about code) I trust devs if they say that implementing this is not feasable.
12:09:22  <andythenorth> I give it a 0% chance
12:09:33  <ic111> I too.
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12:12:14  <eekee> yeah i can believe it's not implementable
12:12:50  <eekee> i just had a thought: a tunnel-station, which is both a tunnel and a station platform
12:13:23  <eekee> that would solve a lot of my wants
12:13:23  <andythenorth> tunnels don’t really exist
12:13:38  <andythenorth> the challenge for bridges and tunnels is that the game stores data in tiles
12:13:40  <eekee> i know, had fun at the edge of a map once lol
12:13:44  <andythenorth> tunnels don’t have any tiles
12:13:58  <andythenorth> trains can’t pathfind to a station that has no tiles, for example
12:14:11  <eekee> what about the tunnel ends?
12:14:22  <FLHerne> There was a proposal to allocate extra strips of tiles to bridges and tunnels
12:14:29  <andythenorth> off-map?
12:14:32  <FLHerne> Which would be its own kind of problem
12:14:34  <FLHerne> Yes
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12:15:26  <FLHerne> I guess you'd need to keep them in a quadtree or something, and then if you see a 'bridge above' bit you'd search for the relevant one
12:15:43  <FLHerne> Instead of searching on-map for the bridgehead
12:16:01  <eekee> i'm trying to imagine the simplest thing. train navigates to end of tunnel-station. for cachement, tunnel-station must be linked with ctrl-click to a regular station
12:16:10  <andythenorth> I wish an architectural decision had been made for ‘denser map’ instead of ‘bigger map'
12:16:37  <andythenorth> a 256x256 game with multiple levels is a better playing experience than 2048x2048 mono-level imho
12:17:00  <andythenorth> but I think the UI and newgrf side would be crappy
12:17:03  <eekee> i couldn't decide between them
12:17:05  <eekee> oh yeah
12:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: these two are completely unrelated
12:17:49  <andythenorth> I wondered if somone would point that out :P
12:17:54  <eekee> hehehe
12:18:02  <andythenorth> rheotirical dark pattern of connecting two unrelated issues
12:18:09  <andythenorth> rhetorical *
12:18:20  <andythenorth> currently widely deployed in political speech
12:19:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think they’re orthogonal, at the implementation level?
12:19:07  <LordAro> andythenorth: i never much enjoyed the multiple levels of locomotion
12:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "political speech" reminds me of
12:19:11  <LordAro> it got messy quickly
12:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: architecturally, yes. (assuming an ideal system with no memory limits)
12:19:53  <eekee> widely deployed in religious speech too :(
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12:21:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think as a design choice, that’s where the focus went
12:21:30  <eekee> anyway, i quite like my tunnel-station idea, but i'm too busy playing to look into coding it :)
12:21:40  <andythenorth> and one design choice often excludes another, even if only by available time to deal with complexity
12:21:55  <eekee> i have to say i do like big maps too
12:22:12  <andythenorth> LordAro: multiple levels probably sucks eh? :)
12:22:20  <andythenorth> I just like the idea of a train dropping 10 levels in a tunnel
12:22:24  <andythenorth> also…lifts!
12:22:49  <andythenorth> could put coal mines actually underground :P
12:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> dropping/raising levels in tunnels is frequently done in mountains
12:23:10  <eekee> oooh :D
12:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (usually in loops)
12:23:35  <andythenorth> spiral tunnel inside mountain
12:25:13  <andythenorth> coal ‘mines’ would be coal seams, underground
12:25:27  <andythenorth> build little networks of trains, moving the coal from multiple seams to a lift
12:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> <eekee> what about the tunnel ends? <-- currently, tunnel ends are the only thing that physically exists on the map. hackalittlebit's "signals in tunnels and on bridges" patch uses those to store the data, but that is widely considered a terrible and inflexible approach
12:25:30  <andythenorth> run supplies back in
12:26:12  <andythenorth> “MineOpenTTD"
12:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is basically a case of "this is not Sim<whatever>"
12:27:36  <eekee> yeah i was thinking it's a different game, but then so are some grfs anyway
12:27:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: still trains though eh?
12:27:53  <andythenorth> all I’ve done is added more Z-layers
12:28:01  <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: i'm thinking it's so small it doesn't need to be flexible
12:28:06  <andythenorth> could just have the map twice :P
12:28:22  <eekee> can't spiral with only two layers?
12:28:32  <andythenorth> rather than moving vertically through layers, scroll to another map which is the same x,y but another z
12:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: z-layers are fine, it's the "model stuff that happens within one industry" part that doesn't quite fit
12:28:57  <andythenorth> well that would be a newgrf choice
12:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you can fit that into a NewGRF economy with no new NewGRF features
12:29:06  <andythenorth> OpenTTD doesn’t have to do a thing for that
12:29:20  <andythenorth> it’s just FIRS, but moved underground ;)
12:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> also, vertical lifts would be a new transport type
12:29:44  <andythenorth> variant on pipelines
12:29:48  <andythenorth> but bi-directional
12:30:06  <andythenorth> are the cages balanced, like a funicular?
12:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, they're not at all like pipes
12:30:39  <andythenorth> yeah, pipes are continuous flow at a rate
12:30:51  <andythenorth> this is discrete packets for the full route, at intervals
12:30:56  <andythenorth> more like a train tbh
12:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably types that are funicular-like, and others where there's just a counter-weight
12:31:24  <andythenorth> well discussing this is more fun than fixing the wiki :)
12:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> also: ship lifts
12:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> also: vehicles in vehicles
12:32:07  <andythenorth> mornington crescent
12:32:20  <andythenorth> once vehicles can go in vehicles, then it regresses infinitely no?
12:32:50  <eekee> you could make a limit of the weight
12:33:04  <Wolf01> I need this
12:33:17  <eekee> btw firs is addictive :D
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12:35:20  <andythenorth> eekee: good :)
12:35:24  <andythenorth> Wolf01: appealing
12:35:28  <eekee> ^.^
12:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you make a vehicle that carries all vehicles, does the vehicle carry itself?
12:39:12  <andythenorth> mayor of mayortown
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12:40:28  <andythenorth> quak
12:44:09  <Wolf01> Quak
12:47:15  <frosch123> hoi
12:47:44  <LordAro> o/
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13:04:04  <andythenorth> _dp_: how can I test this?
13:06:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27912 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-09-03 15:06:29 +0200 )
13:06:35  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r13948): [NPF] Reserved track bits were not accounted for when trying to find any safe position.
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13:08:24  <andythenorth> also _dp_ what the hell is this :D
13:09:37  <ST2> cmon andythenorth, can't a player a very active nervous system build a town road layout?
13:09:38  <ST2> xD
13:11:25  <andythenorth> ST2: you know what the patch does? o_O
13:11:48  <ST2> I think that's only a simulator
13:13:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: it maximised town growth speed
13:13:55  <andythenorth> I can see houses built in corners
13:14:01  <andythenorth> is that it?
13:14:16  * andythenorth wonders whether multiple road layouts need testing etc
13:14:25  <andythenorth> ‘how to test’ would be useful on patches
13:14:37  <frosch123> unlikely :p
13:14:48  <frosch123> for review you need to understand the code anyway
13:17:32  <_dp_> andythenorth, yes, it only places houses in corners :p
13:17:42  <_dp_> doesn't directly affect growth speed or anything else
13:18:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, and that layout is just an example of what an effective layout can look like with that patch
13:19:05  <_dp_> doubt anyone will seriously build it though
13:19:06  <andythenorth> the simulator thing is cool
13:19:44  <andythenorth> ok I’m getting houses in corners
13:19:47  <andythenorth> that’s my repro
13:20:57  <andythenorth> _dp_: how is GS building houses, per
13:21:07  <_dp_> andythenorth, most of testing for that patch comes from checking that it rly doesn't change anything else
13:21:16  <andythenorth> or rather, does GS work there
13:21:41  <andythenorth> I am curious about interaction of GS, newgrf, existing town mechanics
13:22:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, GS usually just controls growth speed, house placing is same with GS or without, and that page describes placing
13:22:35  <andythenorth> ok, that sounds as I’d hoped
13:22:52  <andythenorth> this confused me “GameScript house building command does up to 25 tries for every house”
13:23:26  <_dp_> andythenorth, there is a gs method for instant house construction that works slightly different but it's rarely used
13:24:20  <_dp_> and, yeah, that method basically just calls normal build procedure 25 times (or till success)
13:24:21  <andythenorth> seems better to delegate to town growth mechanism, but eh, I haven’t tried
13:24:32  <andythenorth> (vs. instant)
13:24:45  * andythenorth hasn’t written any town GS
13:24:54  <andythenorth> trying to learn how it works, without writing one :P
13:27:02  <Wolf01> I don't know if I should take this seriously and just go on agriculture or what
13:27:45  <andythenorth> sounds like click-bait
13:28:38  <andythenorth> the problem isn’t age, it’s mindset
13:29:05  <andythenorth> people get trapped by outdated skills because they don’t want, or aren’t supported, to learn new ones
13:29:08  <Wolf01> Tell that to my govern
13:29:46  <frosch123> yep, i have seen people older than 50 who can learn new stuff, and i have seen people at age 25 unwilling to learn new stuff
13:31:09  <andythenorth> I am 39
13:31:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, btw, did you notice benchmarking thing in townsim?
13:31:26  <andythenorth> and I learnt to patch!
13:31:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: simple fix in the screenshot, I could finish the patch...
13:31:50  <andythenorth> _dp_: no, what is it?
13:32:32  <_dp_> andythenorth, hit b key, it grows many towns and shows neat charts :)
13:32:47  <_dp_> like population distribution
13:32:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: that looks way easier than my approach:
13:33:02  <andythenorth> has someone reimplemented the OpenTTD algorithm in JS or so _dp_ ?
13:33:11  <frosch123> (screenshot from 2010)
13:33:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, someone was me xD
13:33:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am used to finding quick fixes to web layout problems :P
13:33:28  <andythenorth> especially now we have responsive layouts
13:33:51  * andythenorth plots javascript-in-openttd
13:34:00  <andythenorth> seriously, we could bundle node
13:34:11  <_dp_> for what?
13:34:19  <frosch123> funny, my boss' boss thinks the same at work :p
13:34:42  <andythenorth> _dp_: for logic-as-content
13:35:04  <_dp_> andythenorth, there is squirrel already, it seems to be even better fit
13:35:18  <andythenorth> but node is for inexperienced programmers!
13:35:23  <andythenorth> it’s right there in the readme somewhere
13:35:35  <andythenorth> squirrel is nuts :P
13:35:43  <_dp_> it seems for experienced programmers even squirrel isn't fast enough :p
13:36:29  <frosch123> i guess in ottd the bottleneck is the command execution
13:36:42  <andythenorth> oh
13:37:03  <andythenorth> I probably have to handle config setting in my patch? “vehicle_speed = true” is in openttd.cfg
13:37:14  <andythenorth> or is that old cruft
13:37:38  <_dp_> frosch123, which commands, network? those seem to be fast enough
13:37:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: would anyone notice if it was removed? :p
13:38:08  <frosch123> _dp_: iirc a script can at most run one command per network frame
13:38:08  <andythenorth> breaks savegames?
13:38:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t know tbh :(
13:38:25  <frosch123> so scripts which want to control the whole map are doomed at some point
13:38:26  <andythenorth> I would like to know more about the settings + savegame compatibility
13:38:29  <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, but that's just shitty gs implementation
13:38:42  <_dp_> frosch123, our servers run multiple commands without any issues
13:38:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: check settings.ini, if it has SDG_NOT_IN_SAVE or something, you can remove it
13:40:42  <andythenorth> SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE ?
13:41:06  <frosch123> probably
13:42:07  <andythenorth> not found
13:42:15  <andythenorth> also I deleted openttd.cfg, started the game, quit
13:42:20  <andythenorth> vehicle_speed is not written
13:42:40  <andythenorth> now I just need sed to fix all the lang strings :P
13:42:45  <frosch123> well, so someone removed it before :)
13:42:53  <andythenorth> good choice
13:43:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't post a patch with the modifies then :p
13:43:10  <frosch123> it's easier to run sed locally
13:43:44  <andythenorth> not ‘easier’ for me :P
13:43:44  <_dp_> hm, now that I think of it I seem to remember that 1 frame delay being there for some very silly reason
13:43:50  <andythenorth> my favourite sed is remote
13:43:52  <andythenorth> by someone else
13:44:23  <frosch123> maybe submit a git feature request: allow commits to be defined as sed/awk/python script for easy merging of generated changes :)
13:44:55  <andythenorth> hmm
13:45:45  <frosch123> _dp_: it's needed if the script wants to know about success immediately, otherwise you need some asynchronous script methods, bundles commands or no success response
13:46:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: see, maybe you can learn about new reject reasons that way
13:46:33  <_dp_> frosch123, I know, and there is no "if" it always thinks script needs the result
13:47:11  <_dp_> frosch123, but since it's a server it could possibly execute that command immediately instead of putting it in queue
13:48:33  <_dp_> "In theory, we could execute the command right away, but then the client on the server can do everything 1 tick faster than others."
13:48:45  <_dp_> found it, that that silly reason
13:49:41  <_dp_> like, who the fuck cares if it's 1 tick faster
13:50:11  <_dp_> and on dedicated server it makes no sense whatsoever
13:52:25  <LordAro> frosch123: you should definitely look at #6469
13:52:27  <_dp_> actually, doesn't that make 2 frame delay for gs?
13:54:17  <andythenorth> we don’t have a FS bot eh?
13:54:38  <_dp_> who wanted to remove some settings? there's
13:54:48  <_dp_> don't think it even works with freq != 1
13:55:25  <_dp_> I mean 0
13:56:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: we do, it's named "andy"
13:56:28  <andythenorth> I didn’t provide the link :P
13:56:43  <frosch123> @fs 6469
13:56:43  <DorpsGek> frosch123:
13:56:45  <frosch123> that one?
13:56:47  <andythenorth> yup
13:56:48  <andythenorth> that one
13:59:19  <frosch123> hmm, mingw-w64 project has a feed on the newest tracker comments on front page :p
13:59:44  <_dp_> omg, why does it completely change gs execution order with DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS?
14:00:27  <_dp_> oh, it's not changing, just disabling
14:00:59  <frosch123> gs is disabled in replay, for obvous reasons
14:01:55  <_dp_> frosch123, ah, so DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS is replay? I though it's just dump
14:04:17  <_dp_> looks like that 1 tick handicap doesn't even add a tick, it's just because of queueing it gets delayed
14:04:20  <frosch123> yes, dumping does not require a compiler option
14:04:47  <andythenorth> copy-paste is rejected, right?
14:04:52  <andythenorth> over and over again?
14:05:10  <_dp_> why btw?
14:05:26  <andythenorth> not interesting?
14:05:59  <_dp_> idk, I could use it to build X rails :p
14:06:10  <_dp_> and mb some stations
14:06:36  <andythenorth> I could think of so many uses :)
14:06:45  <andythenorth> but same as I said to ic111 earlier
14:06:51  <andythenorth> everything is rejected by default
14:07:03  <andythenorth> there doesn’t have to be a reason, except profound lack of interest
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14:07:25  <_dp_> andythenorth, there seem to be a lot of interest from players :p
14:07:37  <andythenorth> I agree
14:07:51  <andythenorth> doesn’t change the facts though :)
14:08:04  <andythenorth> I am trying to perfect the nicest, most accurate, least hostile version of
14:08:13  <andythenorth> “everything is pretty much rejected”
14:08:32  <frosch123> LordAro: any experience with mingw?
14:08:37  <_dp_> andythenorth, "game is dead"? :p
14:08:42  <andythenorth> the explanations of ‘this is all free, you don’t pay for it, developers give their own time” etc
14:08:47  <andythenorth> are true but boring
14:09:04  <andythenorth> _dp_: it’s been dead since start, I’ve been reading older forum + commits
14:09:06  <LordAro> frosch123: too much
14:09:11  <LordAro> what's up?
14:09:22  <frosch123> LordAro: can you confirm/deny that there is no mingw version which supports both win9x and c++11. i.e. mingw only running gcc 4.8, and mingw-w64 only supporting 2000+
14:09:23  <andythenorth> old forum posts are full of “but why is cool feature X not done yet"
14:09:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, so it's undead?
14:09:44  <andythenorth> walking dead
14:10:03  <andythenorth> rolling stone, gathers no moss
14:10:09  <_dp_> crawling and eating brainz xD
14:10:18  <andythenorth> hard to board a moving train
14:10:23  <andythenorth> bad metaphors :P
14:10:47  <andythenorth> my 2 line patch for speed turns out to assert
14:10:54  * andythenorth is not a programmer :(
14:11:33  <LordAro> frosch123: that sounds about right
14:11:36  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think I'm overdoing it with symfony... 435435 classes just to upload and validate a file
14:11:59  <LordAro> i don't think it'd be a great loss to lose support for win9x
14:12:19  <frosch123> no, but it's better with a good reason :)
14:12:22  <LordAro> Wolf01: lol
14:14:05  * andythenorth just dropped IE 9 :P
14:14:11  <andythenorth> it’s nice to lose old things
14:14:24  <Wolf01> Eh, request was fine... no "error" array in symfony request, that's the validator role, you must do an object (maybe an Entity if you want to save the details somewhere) and apply the validator which required ClassMetadata and Constraints...
14:15:00  <Wolf01> Also, better to use generated forms so it can handle the visual errors too
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14:22:48  <_dp_> hm, and why did I suddenly remember some piece of indian wisdom...
14:25:49  * _dp_ now thinking of making a grf with undead ponies
14:26:51  <Flygon_> > grf with undead ponies
14:26:54  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
14:27:03  <Flygon> Ragnarok Online's .grfs aren't close enough? :B
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14:58:19  <andythenorth> undead pony can’t dance _dp_?
14:59:35  <_dp_> huh?
15:02:58  <andythenorth> indian wisdom
15:06:44  <_dp_> andythenorth, dead pony can't, undead can :p
15:20:00  <andythenorth> wisdom
15:20:08  <andythenorth> is it bedtime yet?
15:20:27  <Wolf01> Mmmh, after doing it I'm asking myself if a log parser is actually useful :|
15:21:36  <andythenorth> does it work? o_O
15:22:14  <Wolf01> Almost, but that's the same stuff you can read by opening the file with a notepad
15:22:20  <andythenorth> can it count?
15:22:22  <Wolf01> It could only be useful for stats
15:22:38  <andythenorth> purpose of a log parser is aggregating and filtering
15:23:41  <Wolf01> Also, it seem that windows logs are different than os x ones, and maybe it is different depending on game version too
15:24:00  <andythenorth> different format?
15:24:03  <andythenorth> or different content?
15:24:14  <Wolf01> Both
15:24:27  <Wolf01> Ok, format is plain text
15:24:40  <andythenorth> different key/value pairs?
15:24:49  <Wolf01> Some yes
15:25:03  <andythenorth> just count them if they’re present, otherwise ignore
15:25:30  * andythenorth isn’t actually sure this is useful yet
15:25:35  <andythenorth> but it’s interesting exercise
15:25:38  <Wolf01> Yes, it already does that, but from the log you passed me I can't load a section
15:25:48  <Wolf01> Which works in my logs
15:26:26  <andythenorth> more logs
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15:35:36  <Wolf01> Mmmh there is a F2P trains MMO on steam...
15:38:35  <Wolf01> Ok, not true, not on steam
15:41:15  <andythenorth>
16:01:06  <frosch123> who is the guy at the end?
16:01:48  <andythenorth> didn’t watch that far :)
16:01:55  <andythenorth> good though
16:02:03  <frosch123> well, i mean the one before it restarts :p
16:02:50  <andythenorth> now I am watching again :P
16:03:27  <andythenorth> ha
16:04:01  * andythenorth will now present his New OpenTTD Economy All Rebalanced PDF
16:04:47  <frosch123> does it involve sending bitcoins to andy?
16:05:44  <andythenorth> intriguing, but now
16:05:50  <andythenorth> no *
16:05:57  <andythenorth> it will involve a lot of typos
16:10:30  <andythenorth> trolling aside, I have started roughing out some ideas
16:10:37  <andythenorth> but it seems like a really hard problem
16:11:01  <andythenorth> somewhere there is an overlap of concerns between towns, economy, cargo payment and maybe industry
16:11:17  <andythenorth> and another overlap between newgrf and GS
16:11:47  <andythenorth> on balance, NoTrees -> newgrf might be more fun :P
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16:20:20  <andythenorth>
16:20:25  <andythenorth> ^ should I just delete that?
16:20:34  <andythenorth> I considered rewriting it
16:20:40  <andythenorth> e.g. “Join irc” etc
16:20:47  <andythenorth> but I think “No” is just easier
16:23:06  <LordAro> definitely needs rewriting
16:23:39  <andythenorth> there’s no delete in a wiki?
16:23:46  <andythenorth> there is junk
16:23:53  <andythenorth> and more junk
16:23:56  <LordAro> something along the lines of "it's important to receive some feedback on your idea first, as it may have already been done, worked on, or otherwise rejected for some reason or another"
16:24:05  <andythenorth> and more junk
16:24:14  <LordAro> heh
16:24:18  <Wolf01> andythenorth: you can redirect those page to a "No" page
16:24:23  <LordAro> needs sysop to delete a page
16:24:56  * andythenorth looks for a list of sysops
16:24:59  <Wolf01> Deleting stuff on internet is always bad
16:25:35  * andythenorth wonders if we could ‘unofficial’ the wiki
16:25:54  <andythenorth> I like wikia fan wikis
16:26:14  <andythenorth> I am twitchy about our wiki because it’s Highly Official
16:26:19  <andythenorth> but also All Wrong
16:26:41  <andythenorth> I don’t care about other people being wrong on the internet...
16:27:10  <andythenorth> we could write some version controlled docs, and literally abandon the wiki :P
16:27:30  <ic111> Isn't there more the caption the problem of that page?
16:27:40  <ic111> The caption tells "how to request a feature"
16:27:57  <ic111> and the text tells me, that I should choose how finished the feature is, measured in percent
16:28:25  <andythenorth> it’s all just wrong :)
16:28:33  <andythenorth> there is no mechanic for ‘requesting a feature'
16:28:46  <andythenorth> that presumes some kind of service is offered
16:29:26  <Wolf01> Eh, make the wiki readonly for non-devs
16:29:55  <Wolf01> Changes to the wiki must be sent with FS
16:30:00  <Wolf01> More tasks
16:30:26  <andythenorth> just need a bonfire
16:30:29  <andythenorth> who’s op?
16:31:56  <andythenorth>
16:32:57  <Wolf01> Some names I've never seen in the latest 6-8 years
16:33:09  <LordAro> heh
16:33:29  <LordAro> probably doesn't need sysop, tbh
16:33:45  <LordAro> some-privilege-higher-than-standard-user
16:34:27  <Wolf01> An admin can do it for sure
16:35:31  <Wolf01> Maybe an editor too
16:35:45  <Wolf01> I was editor on a wiki and I could create redirects
16:36:24  <Wolf01> BTW GTG, BBL
16:38:30  <LordAro> anyone can create redirects
16:38:46  <andythenorth> I don’t want to just vandalise
16:38:53  <andythenorth> but currently I’m tempted to just delete the contents
16:39:06  <andythenorth> maybe I should post in forums
16:39:11  <LordAro> i presume there's a "deletion" template somewhere?
16:39:41  <andythenorth> there’s 'outdated'
16:39:49  <andythenorth> but I couldn’t see a ‘deleted'
16:40:22  <andythenorth> ah
16:40:33  <andythenorth> awesome
16:40:34  <ic111> To be honest, I don't completely understand the problem
16:40:59  <ic111> A description what one should do if one has a suggestion IMHO is a senseful thing in such a project
16:41:17  <ic111> I mean, you don't need to use the strong word "request"
16:42:08  <ic111> But changing the page to something like "how to propose a suggestion", together with a link to the suggestion forum, and a clear hint that one should look before, what has already been suggested?
16:43:24  <andythenorth> oh yeah that’s fine
16:43:26  <andythenorth> there’s other stuff
16:43:41  <andythenorth> dead pages
16:44:14  <ic111> In which respect "dead"?
16:45:37  <andythenorth> e.g.
16:45:46  <andythenorth> also
16:46:14  <andythenorth> also
16:47:58  <ic111> Wasn't there a much more detailed list for the latter one (NewGRF_Sets) somewhere?
16:48:07  <ic111> So yes, I see why you need Deletion...
16:50:50  <andythenorth> <- who cares?
16:50:55  <andythenorth> it’s dead
16:51:57  <ic111> Something for the computer archaeologists?
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16:55:09  <andythenorth> pages like this are a waste of people’s lives
16:55:11  <andythenorth>
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17:14:07  <LordAro> andythenorth: i wouldn't say so
17:14:21  <LordAro> i think the subpages are perhaps a bit redundant
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17:23:55  <andythenorth> but we can generate openttd.cfg from the src
17:24:04  <andythenorth> people writing it all out again…blearch
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17:25:52  <LordAro> o/
17:26:24  <Alberth> o/
17:35:07  <andythenorth> hi Alberth :)
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17:43:07  <andythenorth> web translations have been a massive win for OpenTTD, yes/no?
17:44:05  <Alberth> think so indeed
17:44:29  <Alberth> at least for newgrf and scripts
17:44:37  <andythenorth> great :)
17:44:41  <andythenorth> it’s nice to win
17:44:46  <Alberth> \o/
17:45:03  * andythenorth is on a wiki rampage
17:45:11  <andythenorth> wondering about writing some actual docs
17:45:12  <Alberth> openttd itself has had a web translator for eons :)
17:45:32  <andythenorth> wondering if we can have a docs project, fed by pull requests, and encourage translations of the docs
17:45:49  <Alberth> what docs?
17:46:00  <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does
17:46:02  <Alberth> of course you can have a docs project
17:46:09  <andythenorth> some of wiki is…great
17:46:11  <andythenorth> some is…awful
17:46:14  <andythenorth> some is just old
17:46:39  <andythenorth> BUT
17:46:42  <V453000> stuffz
17:46:44  <V453000> iz back
17:46:53  <andythenorth> every docs project I’ve been involved in
17:46:54  <Alberth> Vz are back too :)
17:47:04  <andythenorth> gets stuck on an argument about ‘use Sphinx or not?'
17:47:04  <andythenorth> :P
17:47:26  <V453000> Sphinx has no nose
17:49:02  <Alberth> sphinx is nice, but somewhat complicated
17:49:54  <Alberth> markdown may be enough for a  wiki-ish thing
17:50:11  <Alberth> eclipse picked asciidoc, never looked at it
17:50:58  <andythenorth> I like
17:51:17  <andythenorth> it can import from a repo
17:52:05  <frosch123> why would other stuff be better than the wiki?
17:52:16  <andythenorth> that is the question
17:52:18  <andythenorth> and I don’t know
17:52:31  <andythenorth> on a subjective level, I hate the wiki theme
17:52:38  <andythenorth> and I wouldn’t want to try and fix that
17:52:44  <LordAro> andythenorth: that's just because it's old
17:52:46  <Alberth> wiki lacks main structure, imho
17:52:53  <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does
17:52:54  <LordAro> newer mediawiki's have different themes
17:53:07  <andythenorth> everyone knows the strengths and weaknesses of wikis, eh?
17:53:31  <LordAro> regardless, this constant bikeshedding is useless
17:53:42  <andythenorth> where’s the nuclear reactor? o_O
17:53:51  <LordAro> andythenorth: north korea
17:54:01  <andythenorth> and the one we’re approving?
17:54:33  <Alberth> what I mean is, I think it would help if you have a table of contents (probably 2 levels or so)
17:55:11  <andythenorth> the current FAQ pages in the wiki are pretty sound imo
17:55:13  <andythenorth> I just read them
17:55:22  <andythenorth>
17:55:50  <frosch123> Alberth: anything a bot or extension couldn't solve?
17:56:44  <Alberth> can it orgianize things in logical coherent groups?
17:57:05  <andythenorth> it probably needs a human
17:57:10  <andythenorth> unfortunately
17:57:16  <frosch123> does any other thing do that automatically? :p
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17:57:52  <andythenorth> AI?
17:57:59  <Alberth> if you have a book, you can see what's in it, and add content at a  logical place
17:58:06  <andythenorth> yes
17:58:17  <Alberth> wiki has no back-bone structure like that
17:58:18  <andythenorth> it helps to go trawling the wiki, which I have just done for 2 hours
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17:58:45  <andythenorth> FWIW, I’m doing this (1) personal interest (2) projects with strong documentation culture AND nice docs are more fun
17:59:11  <andythenorth> we have pages like
18:00:43  <frosch123> why would you edit openttd.cfg manually?
18:00:58  <Alberth> bit too much for one page, but fair enough
18:01:05  <andythenorth> “because it’s a wiki” frosch123 :)
18:01:11  <andythenorth> although I wanted to say same
18:01:16  <andythenorth> with more swears
18:01:43  <frosch123> well, i have no idea who would be interested in maintaining that site
18:02:09  <frosch123> but apparently people even translated it
18:02:12  <andythenorth> yes
18:02:21  <andythenorth> how ‘official’ is the wiki?
18:02:28  <andythenorth> it’s pretty much fan-curated?
18:02:55  <frosch123> yes, there are no official docs, except the noai/gs reference, and that is doxygen
18:03:16  <andythenorth> noai/gs works really well btw
18:03:26  <frosch123> it's a "dump your info" place, and i don't see how anything else would fly
18:03:44  <andythenorth> it’s so long since I started playing
18:03:54  <andythenorth> that I can’t think how to write a ‘get started’ guide :)
18:04:22  <andythenorth> but eh
18:04:39  <andythenorth> if I can be arsed, I could just start a repo and a readthedocs account?
18:04:45  <andythenorth> it would be ‘unofficial’ but eh
18:05:03  <frosch123> what would it be better in?
18:05:13  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
18:05:16  <frosch123> that everything is written by you?
18:05:22  <frosch123> how far would you get?
18:05:27  <andythenorth> yes
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18:05:57  <andythenorth> I would bet that it it more likely to go on the pile of ‘failed ideas'
18:06:06  <andythenorth> also that I would get pissed off with the idea
18:06:17  <frosch123> not bored off?
18:06:30  <andythenorth> well in one respect it’s a good time to do it
18:06:38  <andythenorth> game doesn’t need to change much between releases
18:06:47  <andythenorth> it’s a nice stable situation
18:07:00  <frosch123> there was a dude on the german forums, wrote a book about ottd, sold it 2 times
18:07:15  <andythenorth> ‘the missing manual’? :)
18:07:29  <frosch123> it also had a chapter how to play with firs or something
18:07:41  <andythenorth> there are multiple youtube guides now too
18:08:01  <andythenorth> and the redditors
18:08:04  <frosch123> though iirc the guy never player with firs, so it likely was more like "first impressions with firs"
18:08:16  <andythenorth> ha
18:08:24  <andythenorth> maybe I should just fix this, and go back to FIRS :P
18:10:48  <frosch123> 4k pages on the wiki, assuming that at least half are translation, you have 10 per day :)
18:10:53  <frosch123> well, less
18:10:59  <frosch123> (for a year)
18:11:37  <Alberth> just update of the manual would be enough imho
18:12:12  <frosch123> so you want to separate "manual" and "random dumping place"?
18:12:41  <andythenorth> yes
18:12:42  <andythenorth> :)
18:12:49  <andythenorth> I am not going to ‘fix’ the wiki
18:12:50  <frosch123> <- does that belong into the manual?
18:12:56  <andythenorth> nope
18:13:00  <Alberth> me? no, but a lot of pages are about old versions
18:13:34  <andythenorth> eh, partly I got motivated becuase of the CityBuilder docs :)
18:14:22  <andythenorth> CityMania *
18:14:47  <andythenorth> shiny tools :P
18:15:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: what’s your opinion on ?
18:15:35  <frosch123> every vehicle newgrf has a similar page
18:15:55  <frosch123> so it's probably valid
18:16:02  <andythenorth> per
18:16:21  <andythenorth> I dropped most of the stats though
18:16:23  <andythenorth> it’s a teaser
18:17:25  <andythenorth> the page with all the vehicles is classic fan wikia stuff
18:17:35  <andythenorth> what would a manual say?
18:17:40  <andythenorth> ‘get opengfx’
18:19:35  <frosch123> <- i don't think ottd can provide a page like that for every vehicle :p
18:20:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: the installer already gets opengfx
18:20:20  <andythenorth> ha
18:20:27  <andythenorth> well, it’s all solved then :)
18:20:31  <frosch123> see, the page about "installing openttd" confuses me
18:20:42  <frosch123> wouldn't you rather start with a page how to use the mouse?
18:20:50  <frosch123> or how to find the installation instructions?
18:21:06  <andythenorth> we had some docs at work that explained how to search
18:21:11  <andythenorth> ‘type your query in the box'
18:21:17  <andythenorth> ‘press “search”'
18:21:23  <andythenorth> I requested them deleted :P
18:21:53  <frosch123> or is the purpose of those pages to get linked to?
18:21:57  <andythenorth> dunno
18:22:06  <andythenorth> something I see well-intentioned docs writers do
18:22:10  <frosch123> like wolf could link it to his friend, so he does not need to explain how to run ottd in screen
18:22:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't underestimate the stupidity of the average user
18:22:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree :)
18:22:34  <andythenorth> based on having 6,000 customers often with low computer literacy
18:22:39  <andythenorth> they aren’t stupid
18:22:55  <andythenorth> but some do need support, and the ones that do…don’t read docs
18:23:28  <andythenorth> so well-intentioned docs writers…often explain the obvious bits in depth
18:23:31  <andythenorth> ‘just in case’
18:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: compare that with the hours that i wasted because someone forgot to include something in the docs that they thought was obvious...
18:23:40  <andythenorth> even though everyone would figure it out
18:23:59  <andythenorth> but the hard bits are often then under-explained
18:24:02  <andythenorth> or badly explained
18:24:25  <andythenorth> and hence ‘delivering goods causes town growth'
18:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people tried documenting "rubbing coins on the side of the device does not help coins getting accepted", that did never stop people
18:26:20  <andythenorth> it’s hard to beat intuition eh?
18:29:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: linking, dunno?
18:29:43  <andythenorth> I think I’ve found some outdated dev pages in wiki, looked some more, added 1+1, and come out with 42
18:29:55  <andythenorth> there are _probably_ more interesting problems, but eh
18:31:58  <andythenorth> reducing it to simplest, I would rather dev page of wiki said ‘find us on [github | gitlab]’
18:33:59  <andythenorth> for rest…I’d sooner forget it and do something fun :)
18:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> dev pages are always outdated
18:34:35  <andythenorth> burn
18:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> because devs are busy deving and not updating dev pages
18:34:57  <andythenorth> in the last 10 years, all the tools for this stuff have completely evolved
18:35:18  <andythenorth> ‘state of dev’ is ‘read git log'
18:35:26  <andythenorth> ‘patches’ is ‘branches + irc logs'
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18:35:49  <andythenorth> ‘how to build’ should just be in readme, which is replicated online in mulltiple place
18:36:50  <frosch123> with ascii art screenshots?
18:37:03  <andythenorth> well played
18:37:12  <andythenorth> we need more unicode points :P
18:37:31  <andythenorth> unicode-killed-ascii-art?
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18:55:43  <andythenorth> fair edit?
18:55:50  <andythenorth> or waste of time?
18:57:05  <ic111> Related:
18:57:17  <ic111> It states that reviews are done on
18:57:29  <ic111> But, at least given the logs, there is silence, people talk here
18:58:50  <ic111> I must admit, that this confused me either, in that I took the activity at is indicator of the overall activity
18:58:56  <ic111> for some time
19:05:24  <ic111> test
19:05:49  <andythenorth> yeah that needs fixed
19:05:58  <andythenorth> I wrote some blah blah blah here
19:06:30  <andythenorth> planetmaker: o/
19:06:34  <andythenorth> would you be able to edit?
19:06:41  <andythenorth> it’s a bit misleading about
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19:11:21  <frosch123> better remove all explicit content and make it only a link to the wiki
19:11:42  <frosch123> easier to edit (than andy's readthedocs) :p
19:12:43  <LordAro> sometimes something like readthedocs is better than a set of protected wiki pages
19:12:51  <LordAro> pull requests, for one
19:13:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: are you quite -1 to external docs :)
19:13:18  <frosch123> LordAro: i think there is no single protected page
19:13:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: i am +1 to simple permission management
19:13:47  <frosch123> make it easy for people to edit tuff
19:13:50  <frosch123> +s
19:13:55  <LordAro> frosch123: what do you mean?
19:14:15  <frosch123> LordAro: i think our wiki has about none protected pages
19:14:39  <LordAro> ahem.
19:15:08  <frosch123> hmm, the special page to list them is broken :/
19:15:10  <andythenorth> yeah
19:15:15  <LordAro> lol
19:15:19  <andythenorth> that was a trigger actually
19:15:26  <LordAro> oh jees, mediawiki 1.19
19:15:33  <andythenorth> I didn’t want to be bothering frosch123 or Alberth about locked wiki pages
19:15:36  <LordAro> they're up to 1.29 now
19:15:41  <andythenorth> seemed like a waste of people’s time
19:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you're volunteering to keep it uptodate?
19:16:37  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: well
19:16:41  <frosch123> so, protected pages are: roadmaps, todo list, "to do for releases", various wiki-internal sites
19:17:07  <LordAro> once i've finished with the 2 other wiki's i'm currently working on..
19:17:08  <frosch123> <- and that one, wtf?
19:17:30  <LordAro> frosch123: probably related to the spamblacklist plugin?
19:17:49  <frosch123> ah, maybe
19:17:51  <LordAro> not that it's been touched in over a decade
19:18:08  <frosch123> well, spam is only added manually these days, removing their sites with a bot scared them away
19:19:01  <frosch123> as in: there used to be regular search-machine-index scam on the wiki, which i used to delete manually
19:19:14  <LordAro> heh
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19:19:27  <frosch123> then i got tired and wrote a bot, and after first use they stopped
19:19:32  <y2000rtc> Hi there.
19:19:38  <LordAro> but yeah, i could definitely take a look at upgrading the wiki at some point in the future
19:19:45  <LordAro> once i've cleared my backlog of wiki updates :)
19:19:58  <LordAro> i am far too familiar with it by this point
19:20:22  <LordAro> doesn't look too bad in terms of plugins
19:20:36  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hi Andy.
19:20:40  <andythenorth> hi
19:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems nice... (has nothing to do with logic circuits)
19:21:07  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Do you have more power for helping me? :)
19:21:08  <LordAro> i'd imagine most of the difficulty would be upgrading to a version of debian newer than oldoldstable
19:21:24  <LordAro> depending how it's setup
19:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a music puzzle
19:21:26  <andythenorth> y2000rtc: try it and see
19:21:31  <andythenorth> maybe / maybe not
19:22:35  <andythenorth> ;)
19:22:48  <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, it makes sence. :)
19:28:26  <andythenorth> V453000: so iz?
19:29:57  <V453000> wot
19:30:32  <andythenorth> moar?
19:30:41  <V453000> but wot
19:30:53  <andythenorth> art, stuff
19:30:59  <V453000> iz trying to moar
19:31:08  <andythenorth> life, babies, animals
19:31:08  <V453000> but got drunk yesterday and brain still in retard mode
19:31:15  <andythenorth> inevitable
19:31:18  <V453000> trying to put together final form of temperate trees
19:31:33  <andythenorth> can talk bollocks instead?
19:31:39  <V453000> can
19:31:43  * andythenorth is having a holiday from MOAR
19:31:49  <V453000> =D
19:31:50  <ic111> Regarding
19:31:59  * andythenorth pretending to fix docs instead
19:32:03  <andythenorth> such vandalism
19:32:11  <V453000> which docs?
19:32:16  <andythenorth> all
19:32:18  <andythenorth> everywhere
19:32:19  <andythenorth> ever
19:32:24  <andythenorth> V453000: you write good docs
19:32:40  <andythenorth> "OpenTTD: Missing Manual (by V453000 and andythenorth)”
19:32:47  <V453000> XD
19:32:51  <Wolf01> All hail our new overlord andythenorth
19:33:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: no is unofficial
19:33:16  <V453000> so what kind of manual
19:33:21  <andythenorth> 1. Download
19:33:25  <andythenorth> 2. Enjoy game
19:33:29  <andythenorth> 3. Don’t lick pixels
19:33:32  <andythenorth> FIN
19:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who made an "unofficial" manual (in german)
19:34:16  <andythenorth> frosch said he sold 2 copies of it
19:34:33  <V453000> 4. using cargodist, PBS, zbase, terrain variety distribution, ECS and flyspray for dumb requests is punishable by death
19:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah. something like that :p
19:35:06  <ic111> Is there really no positive vision about contributing to the codebase?  Things were help is appreciated, and similar?  The way how this page, and similar pages, is written now to a patch developer reads like 'This game is called OpenTTD, but you should not try to contribute' (a bit overstated)
19:35:25  <andythenorth> ic111 dunno, we can try and rewrite it?
19:35:26  *** y2000rtc has quit IRC
19:35:41  <ic111> It's just the impression I had when reading it
19:35:51  <andythenorth> basically, we already have a queue of patches, and some of them even look not shit
19:35:57  <LordAro> it's not quite the same, but
19:36:08  <andythenorth> more patches just seems to increase pressure on remaining developers to review
19:36:14  <andythenorth> they can either ignore pressure, or quite
19:36:15  <andythenorth> quit *
19:36:40  <andythenorth> neither outcome is optimum all round :P
19:36:43  <ic111> LordAro: Ok, I didn't read that one
19:37:11  <LordAro> and also
19:37:26  <LordAro> ic111: i wouldn't have expected you to? :p
19:37:38  <LordAro> or did you see "open" and not read any further? :p
19:37:58  <ic111> Sorry, I don't understand
19:38:16  <ic111> Maybe place a link to the contributing-pages at the how-to-request-a-feature-page?
19:38:17  <LordAro> those links are for openage, not openttd
19:38:26  <ic111> Ah, sorry
19:38:41  <ic111> I copied the link and started to read
19:38:43  <andythenorth> ic111: possibilities for positive things to do
19:38:54  <andythenorth> - review crashes in flyspray, and try to diagnose
19:39:02  <andythenorth> - review bugs in flyspray and try to repro
19:39:08  <andythenorth> - improve wiki docs
19:39:26  <ic111> Then IMHO you should notice that were you currently simply write "it is very unlikely that we accept your patch"
19:40:08  <andythenorth> I think it would be better to do that here
19:40:27  <andythenorth> wikis being wikis, ours has tended to grow official-looking patch lists, feature request lists etc
19:40:48  <andythenorth> I was just trying to unfuck the feature requests page, which was basically lies, which makes me uncomfortable
19:41:08  <ic111> Certainly a senseful job...
19:41:12  <andythenorth> maybe I should just have deleted the ‘how to feature requests’ section
19:41:16  <andythenorth> and marked the page as old
19:41:50  <LordAro> andythenorth: or delete & link to FAQ Development
19:42:16  <andythenorth> delete the section?
19:42:18  <andythenorth> or the page?
19:42:31  <LordAro> the section
19:42:36  <LordAro> mark page as historical
19:42:41  <andythenorth> yup ok
19:42:42  <LordAro> or someting
19:43:08  <andythenorth> I considered deleting the page, but updating it proved the point that newgrf / GS content wins
19:43:49  <ic111> Well... Not all can be done by NewGrf / GS, and not in all circumstances IMHO it is the best option
19:44:42  <ic111> IMHO it just has its limitations, as every tool has
19:46:45  <ic111> But, regarding the above point, of course pointing out that this is a stable game is valid, but if I listen here, then I don't have the feeling that there are no ideas for senseful codechanges around
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19:47:24  <ic111> So, IMHO one should try to direct people into a senseful direction, instead of telling them "senseless to contribute" (again overstated)
19:47:49  <andythenorth> I guess
19:48:07  <andythenorth> we’re slightly trapped, in that the number of people left who can review
19:48:15  <andythenorth> is possibly too small to increase the number of people who can review
19:48:20  <andythenorth> but eh
19:48:52  <ic111> Yes, this is probably a problem
19:54:33  <ic111> Maybe this is something one could mention on such pages: (1) We have little manpower to review patches, as we all do this in our spare time, (2) We have little time to review patches that in an unnecessary way deviate from coding style etc., so try to deliver us quality, (3) Thus, be prepared to wait for a longer time, maybe no one finds the time for your patch at all,
19:57:51  <LordAro> ^
19:57:55  <LordAro> good words
19:58:53  <andythenorth> it’s kinder than mine
19:59:00  <andythenorth> I’m just inclined to make it more of a game :P
19:59:10  <andythenorth> I get a lot of ponies
19:59:30  <andythenorth> and I treat each one as a game, trying to find out how to get someone interested, and what I have to do to help
19:59:39  <andythenorth> just turning up and demanding…doesn’t work
20:00:03  <andythenorth> unfortunately, even a well prepared patch can appear like a demand, to a reviewer
20:00:11  <andythenorth> it wasn’t always asked for, then it becomes work
20:00:27  <andythenorth> and someone who is rejected is naturally offended, where no offense was intended
20:01:46  <ic111> Basically, this is the question which features are in theory appreciated, if someone does the work, and which are regarded as unnecessary / unwanted
20:02:04  <_dp_> hmm... I just checked my patches and curiously it seems that none of my patches that were merged I ever brought up in irc
20:02:10  <_dp_> ones that I did are still open :p
20:02:12  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:02:17  <andythenorth> empiricism > theory
20:05:06  <andythenorth> ic111 it’s impossible for me to answer
20:05:32  <andythenorth> based on the last 12 months, only peter113*, frosch, alberth and adf88 can answer for what’s appreciated ;)
20:06:08  <andythenorth> it’s easy to say stuff like ‘code style’, ‘doesn’t desync’ etc
20:06:20  <andythenorth> but I can’t give more guide than that
20:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what's the takeaway here? if you keep your patches secret they get merged easier? :p
20:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> correlation > causality :p
20:07:04  <andythenorth>
20:09:01  <andythenorth> ic111: probably distinguish feature / patch quite strongly
20:09:15  <andythenorth> codechange / fix patches get added at a pretty good rate imho
20:09:20  <andythenorth> based on scanning;a=shortlog;pg=1
20:09:32  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, no takeaway, just observation :p
20:10:25  <andythenorth> V453000: haz tried JGR patchpack?
20:10:33  <V453000> probably yes at some point
20:10:45  <_dp_> btw, I don't think I've ever heard anything like "that's a great idea, code it and we'll merge it" here.
20:10:47  <V453000> generally I boycott patches unless someone really makes me try it for some reason
20:10:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: patches are no anonymous submission. a patch by someone is easier to review if the previous patch by that person was easy to review
20:10:56  <V453000> mainly cause save compatibility
20:11:02  <_dp_> even though people constantly suggest stuff
20:11:34  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: If you don't publicise things to random semi-interested people, they don't get bikeshedded?
20:11:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s just whuffie :)
20:12:22  <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW
20:12:31  <V453000> yes that I know
20:13:25  <andythenorth> _dp_: “code it and we’ll merge it” happened at least once;a=commit;h=3f036c6af2c43f582c61761b6c4ffe34954508f3
20:13:57  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW <- while our ambition is packed full of Not*
20:14:24  <andythenorth> it’s worth trying
20:14:41  <andythenorth> I think it’s really good having a giant patch pack full of everything
20:15:07  <andythenorth> it’s a place to try the ideas, instead of hot air theorising
20:15:14  <Wolf01> BTW, could we finish NRT?
20:15:17  * andythenorth would _never_ just talk about something :P
20:15:38  <andythenorth> Wolf01 yes, but we’ve got merge conflicts with openttd master
20:15:42  <andythenorth> and I can’t fix them
20:15:45  <andythenorth> tried earlier
20:16:01  <Wolf01> I could try to fix them, where are the conflicts?
20:16:43  <andythenorth> have you got openttd set up as a remote?
20:17:11  <Wolf01> No, is nrt/master in sync?
20:17:32  <_dp_> andythenorth, that's 2012, I was hardly even playing openttd back then :p
20:17:32  <andythenorth>
20:17:53  <andythenorth> my patching success was short-lived :P
20:18:42  <Wolf01> WTF github doesn't have a button for swapping base with compare?
20:19:36  <andythenorth> somewhere
20:19:39  <andythenorth> but it’s confusing
20:19:49  <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear
20:20:03  <V453000> some of the patches are pretty impressive, mostly the quality of life gui stuff, things like signals on bridges etc are plain dumb shit, but moar better UI is definitely a good way to go in my opinion
20:20:04  <V453000>
20:20:06  <V453000> like this
20:20:23  <_dp_> that callback though... I remember not liking it for some reason :p
20:20:28  <andythenorth> the zoom out viewport worked better than I thought
20:20:37  <andythenorth> I was 99% certain it would chug
20:20:41  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear <- it only appear if you don't have any commit
20:20:49  <andythenorth> it’s useless zooming out to 128x but eh
20:21:39  <Wolf01> Zooming out to > 8x is useless, but zooming out to minimap is really nice... see factorio
20:22:23  <V453000> this is great, intuitive as fuck
20:22:30  <_dp_> ah, I remembery why, it makes default production levels totally unconfigurable :p
20:22:46  <andythenorth> V453000: try using build-and-refit in game, it’s total shit
20:23:07  <michi_cc> And if the existing patch for that wouldn't duplicate and reimplement the whole minimap code it might've already been merged.
20:23:25  <V453000> really?
20:23:26  <V453000> why?
20:23:33  <andythenorth> terrible UI
20:23:39  <andythenorth> it adds a toggle, pointless
20:23:40  <andythenorth> it’s ugly
20:23:42  <andythenorth> it’s confusing
20:23:42  <V453000> wait how exactly does it work?
20:23:46  <andythenorth> and lang strings won’t work
20:23:55  <V453000> it builds the vehicle in the refit that you were filtering?
20:24:01  <Wolf01> Build and refit should be the standard action for refitable vehicles
20:24:03  <V453000> I might be misunderstanding
20:24:31  <Wolf01> Luckily the grfs I use support refit at station
20:25:14  <andythenorth> it’s not a crap idea
20:25:19  <andythenorth> it’s just a crap implementation
20:25:25  <andythenorth> lots of the patches have awful UI
20:25:33  <andythenorth> it just adds mess
20:25:36  <Wolf01> Like the current UI is state of art
20:25:44  <andythenorth> it’s mostly coherent
20:26:04  <Wolf01> Lol... we have 265 styles on different UIs
20:26:36  <andythenorth> Wolf01: JGR patchpack is a clean compile - try it :)
20:26:53  <andythenorth> it’s a good vision of how the UI collapses into hell if patches are just added with no desgin
20:26:56  <andythenorth> design *
20:27:01  <Wolf01> Yeah, but I'm afraid to abandon trunk if I try that
20:27:39  <andythenorth> it has your measure tool in it :)
20:28:11  <V453000> eh, patches
20:28:11  <_dp_> hm, to me it looks that build and refit is no faster than doing it with regular interface...
20:28:20  <andythenorth> it’s not a bad idea
20:28:21  <_dp_> but I usually know what wagon I need
20:28:22  <V453000> really not that much useful in these 60 patches tbh
20:28:35  <_dp_> mb it will be better if it said like "buy and refit to oil"
20:28:57  * andythenorth stops discussing buy-and-refit before FLHerne says ‘bikeshedding’ again :)
20:29:23  <andythenorth> the local authority overlay is pretty good in JGR
20:29:53  <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, until you look at code :p
20:30:04  <andythenorth> is it bad?
20:30:16  <V453000> doing something about breakdowns would be awesome, Hirundo makes it better by adding variety, but I think the most critical problem is still there - properly serviced vehicles should never break down. Not realistic, but gameplay do stuff - get rewarded good. Maybe at least something along the lines like the train-stopping breakdowns would be prevented when reliability would be above some threshold would make sense.
20:30:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, looping over all towns for each tile
20:30:30  <andythenorth> :o
20:30:31  <V453000> though I don't think you can explain reliability with people pulling emergency brakes XD can remove that one
20:30:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Eh, I love that patch :P
20:30:42  <FLHerne> (using JGRPP)
20:30:52  * andythenorth proposes newgrf tile overlays :P
20:30:59  <_dp_> and those frame sprites don't make great overlays either
20:31:02  <andythenorth> no
20:31:10  <FLHerne> Hey, that's a pretty cool idea actually
20:31:11  <andythenorth> and it should be on transparency
20:31:18  <andythenorth> newgrf can read town
20:31:22  <andythenorth> newgrf can read other stuff
20:31:40  <_dp_> yeah, but transparency is probably a no go for 8 bit
20:31:51  <andythenorth> I mean it should be on transparency palette
20:32:14  <andythenorth> not a separate whole new window called ‘zoning'
20:32:30  <V453000> sleep time
20:32:31  <V453000> bai
20:32:35  <andythenorth> which I first thought was an implementation of the zones in original sim city
20:32:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: i am very much in favour of highlighting stuff, like station catchment toggleable in station window etc... it just needs a shared solution, which means refactoring instead of feature-jumping
20:32:37  <andythenorth> bai V453000
20:32:42  <V453000> made some progress on trees :) iz good
20:32:46  <andythenorth> frosch123: +1
20:32:54  <V453000> frosch123: arr +1
20:33:03  <andythenorth> having tried JGR PP, and read the threads for the patches
20:33:09  <frosch123> but we did not even figure out the transparency gui :p
20:33:11  <andythenorth> it all lacks any architecture
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20:33:35  <andythenorth> at least where I see it, in UI
20:33:40  * andythenorth can’t speak for code
20:33:53  <andythenorth> but JGR patchpack *looks* like this
20:34:01  <andythenorth> (scroll for picture)
20:34:34  <ic111> frosch123: When I hear something like this, then I ask me the question why things like that ("needs refactoring") isn't mentioned on a how-to-contribute-page?
20:34:42  <_dp_> andythenorth, ah, dunno, it doesn't quite fit there. zoning is usually something you want to just check and hide again
20:34:54  <_dp_> andythenorth, and transparency you set up once and use hotkey
20:35:10  <andythenorth> yes - check and hide again - just like toggling transparency on and off
20:35:14  <FLHerne> Useful things in JGRPP, IMO: Restrictive signals, conditional-order-by-train-length, buy-and-refit, usable level crossings, town-cargo factor
20:35:18  <andythenorth> it’s even the same case
20:35:35  <andythenorth> hiding houses or industries is when you’re constructing, which is also when overlays for LA are wanted
20:36:10  <andythenorth> FLHerne: how do the restrictive signals work, didn’t get that far yet?
20:36:14  <_dp_> andythenorth, it's only transpacency mode that gets toggled, individual settings in palette usually are not
20:36:15  <FLHerne> A lot of the other stuff is either really niche or not useful or doesn't really work
20:36:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can have signals that disallow trains >n length, or not carrying X
20:36:42  <andythenorth> newgrf :P
20:36:48  <_dp_> andythenorth, and btw some zonings make more sense combined with building tools
20:36:55  <_dp_> like catchment areas
20:37:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: They let you take a lot of really messy conditional waypoint orders out
20:37:13  <andythenorth> oh god, even more signals in the UI :(
20:37:15  <andythenorth> my eyes
20:37:17  <_dp_> or industry placement (that's not in jgrpp)
20:37:20  <andythenorth> wtf
20:37:23  <FLHerne> (possibly more so if you're overabusing station refits)
20:37:37  <andythenorth> _dp_: eh you might be right
20:38:05  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, you set rules on normal signals
20:38:09  <FLHerne> There's no extra type
20:38:14  <andythenorth> eh?
20:38:17  <andythenorth> there’s an orange one
20:38:27  <andythenorth> there are now 14 signals
20:38:36  <andythenorth> of those, most people only need PBS colour light
20:38:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that's progsigs. Different patch :P
20:38:50  <FLHerne> Vast overkill
20:39:01  <andythenorth> there’s a spanner icon
20:39:04  <andythenorth> what’s that?
20:39:10  <andythenorth> fix broken signals?
20:39:12  <andythenorth> Realism
20:39:23  <andythenorth> new breakdown mode: signal failure
20:39:32  <FLHerne> I have a gear, but not a spanner. Otherbaseset?
20:39:57  <andythenorth> yup
20:40:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The one that says "Routefinding restriction" is the useful one
20:40:36  <andythenorth> trying to make it work
20:40:37  <FLHerne> Progsigs theoretically seem nice, but they're far too much of a pain to actually bother with in any real game
20:40:48  <andythenorth> it even has a right arrow in case you want to move the viewport 100px
20:40:51  <andythenorth> fantastic feature
20:41:03  <andythenorth> glad that’s there
20:41:22  <FLHerne> Click "Routefinding restriction", click a signal, set the restrictions
20:41:47  <andythenorth> I have
20:41:55  <andythenorth> it’s one of those UIs
20:42:00  <andythenorth> that would be easier if it wasn’t
20:42:13  <andythenorth> stuff like this is just easier to type in code
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20:42:32  <andythenorth> if tl>2: deny
20:42:36  <andythenorth> rather than 7 shit buttons
20:42:38  <FLHerne> Agreed
20:43:11  <FLHerne> OTOH, having to read syntax documention before playing would be a bit of a nuisance
20:43:36  <andythenorth> it also has the ‘load by cargo’ UI
20:43:44  <_dp_> can't tl be checked with rails/presignals?
20:44:00  <FLHerne> Some kind of draggable-blocks thing would be nice, but wouldn't really fit with the UI style :P
20:44:03  <andythenorth> ha I like the ‘automate’ button on timetables
20:44:05  * andythenorth clicks it
20:44:13  <andythenorth> nah, nothing happened
20:44:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that one's far more useful than it ought to be for being a disgusting hack
20:44:55  <FLHerne> Basically, it dynamically fucks with each vehicle's timetable to keep them a constant distance apart
20:45:06  <FLHerne> Good for buses
20:45:26  <FLHerne> Doesn't work with ships, because timetables don't work for ships for some stupid reason
20:46:14  <FLHerne> Gets problematic if you have congestion, because it only separates vehicles by delaying them, and you can get in a loop where it essentially freezes all the vehicles
20:47:04  <andythenorth> I only tried timetables with ships
20:47:05  <FLHerne> (because vehicles on route A wait for a slot, and delay vehicles on route B, so then the next A gets delayed and every other A gets delayed to compensate, which delays all the Bs...)
20:47:11  <andythenorth> is that why I declared them broken?
20:47:21  <FLHerne> Possibly
20:47:32  <FLHerne> I mean, they're broken for everything else too from a sane perspective
20:47:35  <andythenorth> total no-op as far as I could tell
20:47:36  <FLHerne> But at least they /work/
20:47:48  <FLHerne> Yeah, ship timetables literally do nothing
20:47:50  <andythenorth> I clicked all the buttons as instructed, ships travel bunched together
20:47:51  <FLHerne> I don't know why
20:47:57  <andythenorth> because crap patches
20:48:31  <FLHerne> I think they're broken in trunk also
20:48:42  <FLHerne> Or featured, possibly
20:48:59  <andythenorth> yes, I tried them in trunk
20:49:05  <FLHerne> Well, I suppose that would also be down to crap patches
20:49:07  <andythenorth> I have been offensive about them ever since
20:49:39  <frosch123> i guess i never used ships with timetables, but i also have never seens a bugreport about them :)
20:49:47  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try them on RVs instead, don't worry, you can continue to be offensive about them
20:50:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: I assumed EBKC
20:50:26  <Wolf01> Mmm I'm a special kind of stupid... "lets start netflix and watch a tv show while listening to music"
20:50:27  <FLHerne> Hey, where did all the bugs go?
20:50:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I heard you were removing random FS tasks
20:50:53  <andythenorth> I didn’t quite get as far as randomising
20:50:54  <FLHerne> Oh, nvm
20:51:13  <FLHerne> For some reason, my FS bookmark was for some arbitrary search result
20:51:26  <FLHerne> So I only saw 8 tasks, total...
20:52:41  <andythenorth> I didn’t get that far…
20:52:42  <andythenorth> yet
20:53:06  <FLHerne> frosch123: I guess it's a subcategory of ? Although IME it works for the other types
20:53:10  <Wolf01> lol
20:53:18  <FLHerne> (not sure about aircraft, I don't use them really)
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21:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i bought "deponia" and already i'm hopelessly stuck in the first chapter...
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21:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like i've grown more impatient about being stuck in adventures
21:04:20  <Wolf01> I've finished it with one ending
21:04:28  <Alkel_U3> I haven't managed to get out of the house where it starts yet
21:04:34  <Wolf01> TBH I liked more primordia
21:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: i managed that once i found out i can hold space bar to view "interesting" pieces
21:07:07  <andythenorth> FWIW, there are a couple of timetable bugs here which need repro
21:07:13  <Wolf01> I tried the "droggeljug" mode, where every dialog is changed with "droggeljug droggeljug droggeljug"
21:07:26  <andythenorth> ic111: ^^
21:08:51  <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks for the tip, that might get me somwhere
21:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: it took me going to the menu and browsing the tips for that :p
21:10:13  <Wolf01> Could I be able do play a skirmish in halo wars 2 this evening? It's being loading for 5 minutes
21:10:20  <ic111> andythenorth: Yes, IMHO the present timetable system is some sort of a bug... (otherwise I wouldn't spent so much time on that)
21:10:31  <ic111> wouldn´ t have
21:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
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21:20:19  <andythenorth> such bedtime
21:20:21  <andythenorth> bye
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21:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> one day he finds the bedtime, i'm sure.
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23:45:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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