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00:03:53 *** debdog has quit IRC 00:06:44 *** debdog has joined #openttd 00:16:23 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:29:44 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 01:02:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 03:04:19 *** glx has quit IRC 03:34:11 *** blocage has quit IRC 05:04:00 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 05:04:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 05:32:06 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 05:55:12 *** Progman has joined #openttd 06:03:14 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:05:19 *** Cubey has quit IRC 06:05:30 <andythenorth> o/ 06:11:57 <andythenorth> milek7: o/ 06:18:33 <andythenorth> oops, tab doesn’t ffw real life, just openttd :P 06:26:05 <Alberth> o/ 06:26:37 <andythenorth> lo Alberth :) 06:27:19 <Alberth> daylength in RL would be more useful, imho :p 06:27:46 <andythenorth> somewhat 06:27:58 <andythenorth> it can be faked by focussing 06:28:10 <andythenorth> but sometimes external obligations make that hard 06:29:03 <Alberth> hmm, in my experience, time speeds up when you're focussed :) 06:29:56 <Alberth> also, tea could be useful now 06:29:59 <andythenorth> needs a bug report 06:30:02 <andythenorth> and a feature request 06:35:01 *** DDR has quit IRC 06:35:22 *** DDR has joined #openttd 06:40:05 <Alberth> nah, doesn't work 06:41:46 <andythenorth> time for my occasional adventure into industry_cmd.cpp 06:52:06 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 06:52:16 *** keoz has joined #openttd 07:00:06 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 07:01:05 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 07:02:08 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:09:08 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:16:16 <andythenorth> hmm 07:19:18 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 07:31:34 <peter1138> why was i awake until 3am :S 07:32:29 <andythenorth> minecraft 07:32:36 <peter1138> true 07:32:46 <peter1138> well, best be off out on the bike 07:32:50 <andythenorth> fair 07:43:25 <andythenorth> :o 07:43:31 <andythenorth> where did all these airports come from? 07:43:47 <andythenorth> there are 8 versions just of small airport, now in trunk 07:47:02 <andythenorth> oh it’s OGFX+ Airports :) 07:49:00 <Alberth> I wondered already how you managed that :) 07:49:16 <andythenorth> hidden features :P 07:53:07 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 07:53:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:54:36 <ic111> andythenorth: As you cleaned up the bugtracker now - should I create tickets for the two bigger patches I wrote (timetables, new river generator), or doesn't this matter in fact? After all, I publish new versions in the forum anyway, so such a ticket would probably contain a link to the forum thread... 07:54:49 <andythenorth> ic111: I would discuss here first 07:55:06 <andythenorth> you need to get lucky on a day when a few devs are (1) here (2) in a mood to discuss it 07:55:22 <ic111> Discussing them is a long-term-issue anyway... 07:55:31 <ic111> I don't expect to discuss them in one day... 07:55:46 <andythenorth> at the moment, based on dev interests/priorities, I think there’s a low chance of getting them through :) 07:56:06 <andythenorth> better rivers would be a nice pony IMHO 07:56:08 <andythenorth> but eh 07:58:46 <andythenorth> ic111: is better rivers in JGR’s patch pack? 07:58:56 <ic111> AFAIK no 07:59:42 <ic111> Integrating them into a patch pack would probably be possible without too much work 08:00:11 <ic111> ... as (beside a refactoring of the mapgen GUI), the patch queue adds new code, but doesn't touch existing code 08:00:53 <andythenorth> ic111: where’s the repo for it? o_O 08:00:56 * andythenorth might try and compile 08:01:37 <ic111> wait a moment... 08:04:07 <ic111> Here is the latest patch queue, which applied against trunk in April: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71970&start=280#p1185787 08:04:15 <ic111> ... and here is somewhat older windows binary: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71970&start=260#p1160466 08:04:25 <andythenorth> no github? o_O 08:04:43 <andythenorth> I think official policy for patches is still mercurial patch queues :P 08:04:59 <ic111> yes, I was told so 08:05:15 <ic111> I have read that you don't like them 08:05:33 <andythenorth> [shrug] 08:06:08 <andythenorth> the github route makes more sense to me, patches are isolated and lost imho 08:06:17 <andythenorth> but I’m not a dev or reviewer 08:07:22 <ic111> For me, given that I am somewhat familiar with the hg way now, it's just a question of how much time do I invest in organizing source code (learn a new kind of version control system), and how much time do I invest into the code itself. 08:07:33 <andythenorth> fair 08:08:33 <andythenorth> so much stuff in JGR Patchpack 08:08:39 <andythenorth> not sure where to begin testing :P 08:08:49 <andythenorth> ship collision avoidance doesn’t work though 08:09:07 <ic111> never heard of that 08:09:57 <andythenorth> it’s a patch 08:10:01 <ic111> But if you avoid ship collisions - doesn't this trigger the need for extended path finding? 08:10:26 <ic111> If two ships meet in a narrow part of the ocean, and can't pass - what happens? 08:11:14 <andythenorth> dunno 08:11:17 <andythenorth> waste of time IMHO 08:14:06 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 08:19:09 <Alberth> avoid is a lot softer than remove/eliminate 08:19:45 <Alberth> ie it doesn't promise collisions wont happen 08:20:29 <andythenorth> I tested it, and ships still sail along 100% over-lapping 08:20:37 <andythenorth> so it ain’t adding much :P 08:21:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: I fixed a FS :o 08:21:37 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3958#comment14741 08:22:50 <Alberth> perhaps if they meet in opposite direction? 08:25:04 <Alberth> moving speed to top-left corner in the display? 08:25:44 <Alberth> centered on engine is also quite useless, as 1/2 the display is not used 08:27:38 <andythenorth> dunno what my fix does on RTL languages 08:27:58 <andythenorth> but I am often having to make vehicle windows wider to see the speed 08:28:03 <andythenorth> yak-shaving 08:28:27 <Alberth> you know you posted an image only, right? 08:28:31 <andythenorth> yup 08:28:45 <andythenorth> if it’s viable I’ll make a patch, otherwise eh 08:28:54 <andythenorth> changing all the lang strings is a lot of faff :P 08:29:16 <Alberth> sed is the magic word there :p 08:29:21 <andythenorth> it just shuffles the parameters around 08:29:50 * andythenorth was amused to be able to actually fix something 08:29:59 <Alberth> It feels like it needs a word in front 08:30:10 <andythenorth> OpenTTD has the same Z-shaped learning curve that Zope community ran into 08:30:17 <andythenorth> small small things are very easy 08:30:25 <andythenorth> creating illusion of rapid progress 08:30:31 <andythenorth> everything else is nearly impossible 08:30:38 <andythenorth> so going backwards 08:31:00 <Alberth> all the in-between stuff mostly works 08:31:13 <Alberth> unless you take out whole parts 08:31:32 <Alberth> +have to 08:34:50 <andythenorth> this zoning patch is in JGR https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=888076#p888076 08:34:58 <andythenorth> at first test, it seems really useful 08:35:02 <andythenorth> intrerface is….odd 08:38:33 <Alberth> catchment area is quite complicated 08:38:49 <andythenorth> yup 08:39:00 <andythenorth> it’s somewhere on a frosch to-do list 08:39:03 <Alberth> biggest problem iirc is that things are not always the same 08:39:19 <andythenorth> I was using it for local authority display only 08:39:44 <andythenorth> seems straightforward there 08:39:56 <andythenorth> problem is, people will want a generic solution for All The Things :| 08:40:02 <andythenorth> perfect is the enemy of good, again 08:44:12 <Alberth> just city authority could work 08:44:41 <Alberth> I never need that information though 08:45:31 <andythenorth> I need it when I’m planting trees to placate LA 08:45:48 <andythenorth> or in silicon valley, where industries have to be built in specific town 08:49:01 <andythenorth> be better as a toggle on transparency palette 08:49:05 <andythenorth> but eh 08:49:19 <andythenorth> newgrf tile overlays :P 09:00:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s wrong with you ‘close adjacent level crossings’ patch? 09:01:01 <andythenorth> it’s in JGR PP, seems to work so far 09:01:18 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 09:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mostly converting old savegames safely (i.e. a setting which is enabled for new games and disabled for old games by default, and a serious warning to change that mid-game) 09:02:37 <andythenorth> no setting, just migrate it to be standard behaviour? 09:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no. vehicles will crash if you just enable it 09:14:16 <andythenorth> gosh 09:14:23 <andythenorth> polyline building tool is super annoying 09:20:33 <andythenorth> as is build-and-refit 09:20:57 <Alberth> depends on what you're used to? 09:22:03 <Alberth> not that it matter much, as you mostly clone anyway 09:22:23 <andythenorth> build-and-refit adds an extra toggle button to buy menu 09:22:31 <andythenorth> which makes very cluttered and confusing 09:22:46 <andythenorth> either you want that feature, or you don’t 09:22:52 <andythenorth> no need to toggle it per purchase :P 09:23:31 <andythenorth> I was hoping for more gold in this patchpack TBH 09:23:57 <andythenorth> all it’s doing is re-inforcing my prejudice that Improving the Game is Now Hard 09:24:09 * andythenorth does not mean that to sound grumpy 09:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no worry, it totally does :p 09:25:36 <andythenorth> this patchpack is awesome :) 09:25:51 <andythenorth> it shows that over the years, basic OpenTTD has become really good :) 09:26:11 <andythenorth> and that there are some nice ideas for patches, but actually everything is already fine :) 09:26:14 <andythenorth> better? 09:27:15 <Alberth> it shows that changes need to be considered more thoroughly, perhaps 09:28:35 <andythenorth> so far, the game seems about twice as dense in JGR patchpack 09:28:51 <andythenorth> unassailable learning curve 09:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: another tricky part about the adjacent level crossing patch is that if you want to add diagonal crossings on top of it, the adjacent crossings must be enabled 09:29:35 <andythenorth> complex eh 09:32:52 <andythenorth> is there a console command to show active blitter? 09:32:58 <andythenorth> I have looked in wiki and list_cmds 09:33:02 *** ic111 has quit IRC 09:38:37 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 09:40:52 *** Celestar1 has joined #openttd 09:43:40 <ic111> As I had a look / fixed the issues LordAro told me about the timetables patch two weeks ago yesterday - what´s your opinion about the desired (minimum) size of the timetable window? 09:43:45 <ic111> See here https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199556 for a screenshot 09:44:17 <ic111> My problem is, that in fact the first line (currently) needs the width I distributed. 09:44:36 <ic111> Of course I could gain some space by shorter labels, but not much 09:44:42 <LordAro> a screenshot in the default font would perhaps be more useful 09:44:53 <LordAro> but, can it not be split into 2 lines? 09:45:09 <LordAro> it looks like at least "Timetable length.." could be on the next line 09:45:26 *** Celestar has quit IRC 09:45:28 <andythenorth> UI design is hard :) 09:45:30 <Alberth> "Vehicle" is totally useless, as is "Timetable" on that white line 09:45:45 <andythenorth> Celestar1 so where is your legendary economy PDF then? o_O 09:45:50 <ic111> Hm, the second line contains an (optional) name of the timetable which I use for arrival / departure boards 09:46:08 <ic111> I could shorten Timetable Length to Length 09:46:38 <andythenorth> is it an option to light the current timetable implementation on fire, and start again? 09:46:42 <ic111> I made it that verbose, since at this point, you must distinguish the property of the timetable and the property of the vehicle 09:46:43 <andythenorth> all of it 09:47:07 <ic111> I.e., the timetable has one global start, and then you have n vehicles with different offsets 09:47:44 <ic111> Thus, if a vehicle has offset two months, then the start of the timetable might be 1st January, but the start of the vehicles timetable is 1st March 09:47:45 <andythenorth> LordAro: know anything about the blitters? o_O 09:48:15 <ic111> So, yes, I might shorten the labels, but I feared that then people won´t realize how it works 09:48:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: precious little 09:49:08 <LordAro> but, 09:49:11 <andythenorth> this patch fails in way too many places for me to have a clue 09:49:11 <LordAro> @topic get 3 09:49:11 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask 09:49:11 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469 09:49:12 <LordAro> :p 09:49:23 <andythenorth> maybe I could dig it out of JGR’s github 09:49:29 <Alberth> offset can't be related to timetable, can it? 09:49:42 <ic111> I don´t understand your question 09:50:11 <ic111> The OrderList has a start date 09:50:15 <Alberth> you are explicit over timetable vs vehicle 09:50:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you ever use timetables? o_O 09:50:30 <ic111> A vehicle has an offset against that OrderList 09:50:34 <Alberth> but I don't see how a timetable has an offset 09:50:51 <ic111> Start date plus offset result in the vehicle-local start date 09:50:56 <Alberth> so "offset" has only one meaning then 09:51:05 <ic111> Yes. 09:51:13 <Alberth> and it doesn't need "vehicle" in front 09:51:13 <ic111> It´s a property of the vehicle 09:51:29 <ic111> In this way, you are right, I can remove it 09:51:53 * andythenorth reads the wiki about timetables 09:51:55 <ic111> Maybe I should add a reasonable tooltip with the explanation? 09:52:05 <Alberth> do you have vehicle start? 09:52:31 <Alberth> hmm, likely you do 09:53:02 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'll have a look 09:53:18 <ic111> The arrivals the vehicle presents you below are (should be) in the range [vehicle_start, vehicle_start + timetable_length[ 09:53:27 <andythenorth> I can’t find a branch in https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches 09:53:32 <LordAro> https://i.imgur.com/y9b7czQ.png website recreation is making progress 09:53:40 <andythenorth> was hoping for a clean branch, JGR’s patch is probably just old 09:53:50 <andythenorth> his PP is close to recent trunk 09:53:57 <Alberth> maybe rename one f the "start" to "begin" or something else 09:54:42 <Alberth> andy, hardly using time tables, they are not very resistent against breakdowns 09:54:59 <andythenorth> I am unable to comment on any of the timetable stuff 09:55:10 <andythenorth> I keep trying to learn what the goal is, but it doesn’t stick 09:55:22 <Alberth> "almost useless" is a good summary :p 09:55:37 <andythenorth> I have tried following the instructions, but either the instructions are broken 09:55:40 <andythenorth> or OpenTTD is broken 09:55:44 <andythenorth> or I did it wrong 09:55:58 <Alberth> I think you covered all the options :p 09:56:04 <andythenorth> I fail to understand how it adjusts the vehicle speeds 09:56:12 <andythenorth> that seems to violate the idea that newgrf controls vehicle speed 09:56:14 <Alberth> it involves a few tricks to get it running 09:56:31 <Alberth> it doesn't change speed 09:56:35 <andythenorth> wiki says it does 09:56:38 <ic111> Regarding breakdowns: As in real world, I always add some extra time for unexpected events, i.e. if a vehicle in optimal circumstances needs 10 days for a distance, I assign 11 or 12. 09:56:41 <Alberth> it adds waiting time in stations 09:56:55 <andythenorth> "as well as specifying a maximum speed at which the vehicle should travel along that section of its journey" 09:57:01 <ic111> plus a reasonable waiting time at the end of the line, before the vehicle starts into the opposite direciton 09:57:12 <andythenorth> “Each vehicle speeds up or slows down depending on whether it is late or early according to the timetable." 09:57:21 <andythenorth> idea seems flawed to me 09:57:38 <andythenorth> slowing down the vehicle just makes any following vehicles late 09:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: timetables can already limit speed 09:57:40 <ic111> is (in my personal playing style) part of the fun, designing things a way where they are robust, even if some breakdowns happen 09:58:06 <andythenorth> anyway, there’s no mileage in a hot air argument about timetables :) 09:58:12 <andythenorth> we’re stuck with them :) 09:58:18 <andythenorth> maybe ic111 is going to fix them 09:58:56 * andythenorth wonders about multiplayer coop game using JGR patchpack 09:59:04 <ic111> But, regarding layout, then I try to shorten some labels, decrease width of the dialog somewhat, but don´ t touch the core layout 09:59:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: largely failing because of http://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=commit;h=206a0838e995fe74aae3867f93feb0aaf2acb219 10:00:29 <andythenorth> can’t tell if JGR has fixed that 10:00:53 <LordAro> well i'd imagine so :p 10:01:00 <LordAro> let me see if i can find a commit in his branch 10:01:19 <andythenorth> he’s at 27893, so looks like it should be fixed 10:04:22 <LordAro> nope, doesn't look like it's in his PP 10:05:42 <LordAro> looks like frosch's commit did quite a bit of what JJ's patch did though, let me see if i can update 10:07:21 <_dp_> o/ 10:07:32 <_dp_> polyrail is very nice, vastly increases building speed :p 10:07:45 <_dp_> only starcraft maniacs like solo don't use it xD 10:09:57 <andythenorth> adds yet another button to the construction toolbar 10:10:03 <andythenorth> makes me twitch 10:10:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 10:10:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, just remove other 5 :p 10:10:26 <andythenorth> detects some slopes, and fails on others 10:10:39 <andythenorth> so you release mouse button to build, but it just fails 10:11:10 <_dp_> it's same as regular autorail on slopes 10:11:17 <andythenorth> in fact it just doesn’t work 10:11:33 <andythenorth> I drag straight and diagonal sections, and it only builds one of them 10:11:35 <andythenorth> total shit 10:11:51 <andythenorth> no point being nice about it, it’s just broken 10:12:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, a lot of people happily use it :p 10:12:44 <_dp_> bulding two segments doesn't quite fit openttd network commands 10:13:02 <_dp_> so it always builds only one 10:13:20 <_dp_> it's basically an autorail that remembers last point, nothing more 10:13:36 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a terrible design 10:13:46 <Wolf01> o/ 10:13:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s complete crap 10:14:00 <_dp_> it may not be the best design possible but it's still much better than autorail :p 10:14:03 <andythenorth> worth you getting JGR’s patchpack to test it 10:14:14 <andythenorth> I hate UIs that lie to people 10:14:52 <Alberth> o/ W 10:15:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01: o/ 10:15:27 <andythenorth> your measure tools are in JGR’s pack Wolf01 :) 10:15:29 <andythenorth> what are they for? 10:15:36 <Wolf01> Measure distances? 10:15:57 <andythenorth> what’s wrong with counting tiles with my fingers? 10:16:04 <andythenorth> like I have to when testing industry placement rules 10:16:07 <Wolf01> Distance and height difference between starting point and end point 10:16:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, I'll call you next time I'll need to find two towns on 230 tiles distance :p 10:16:34 <andythenorth> Wolf01 should be on the land-area information global button 10:16:41 <andythenorth> not landscape toolbar 10:16:43 <Wolf01> Did he integrate them with all other drag&drop tools? 10:16:49 <andythenorth> try it :) 10:16:58 <andythenorth> JGR patchpack clean compiles for me 10:17:21 <andythenorth> I think for any current discussion of features, JGR patch-pack is required viewing 10:17:22 <Wolf01> I was planning to automatically get distance and height difference when d&d 10:17:57 <andythenorth> https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches 10:18:05 <Wolf01> Maybe even the cost instead of using shift 10:18:11 <andythenorth> https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches/tree/measurement_tool 10:18:12 <Wolf01> Fuck shift 10:19:21 <andythenorth> cost of what? 10:19:30 <andythenorth> oh as a tooltip for autorail etc? 10:19:34 <Wolf01> Yes 10:19:48 <andythenorth> maybe 10:19:50 <Wolf01> I don't have the shift on my tablet 10:19:57 <Wolf01> I don't even have the ctrl 10:20:03 <andythenorth> measure tool would be useful for newgrf dev 10:20:14 <Wolf01> But I bound that to a gesture which enables and disables it 10:20:16 <andythenorth> dunno if you’ll find anyone to commit it though :P 10:20:25 <andythenorth> it’s quite a niche thing 10:21:10 <_dp_> btw in citymania client land info tool does the measurement when d&d 10:21:31 <andythenorth> is it good? 10:21:41 *** nahkiss has joined #openttd 10:21:44 <andythenorth> I wondered about doing that 10:21:57 <_dp_> works fine for me 10:22:05 <andythenorth> does it also tell you the properties of every tile in the dragged region? 10:22:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, no, it only tells properties on one tile click, and d&d does measurement 10:22:39 <andythenorth> odd heuristic 10:22:40 <nahkiss> Hey, I'm running a dedicated server and have hard time figuring out how to start a new game with new generated map. What I'm missing here? 10:22:51 <_dp_> may not be a very good interface choice but saves hotkeys xD 10:23:00 <andythenorth> hotkeys are evil 10:23:05 <andythenorth> so are buttons and toggles 10:23:10 <andythenorth> and mag 10:23:12 <andythenorth> magic * 10:24:06 <Wolf01> nahkiss: open the console and type "newgame" 10:24:15 <Wolf01> Maybe with rcon 10:24:28 <nahkiss> Wolf01: yeah tried that (with rcon) and I get the same map but fresh game 10:24:58 <nahkiss> Like, cities and stuff change place but there's 2 lakes on the exact same spot, etc. 10:24:59 <Wolf01> That should be the "restart" behaviour 10:25:01 <andythenorth> it’s the game settings crap 10:25:29 <nahkiss> Some openttd.cfg option I need to change? 10:25:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, I forgot, landinfo in cmclient works on hovering 10:25:34 <Wolf01> nahkiss: try newgame [somerandomnumber] 10:25:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, so when you hover it's land info and click-and-drag its measurement 10:25:50 <LordAro> andythenorth: hmm. i do believe that JJ's patch supersedes r27796 10:25:55 <LordAro> if i'm reading this correctly 10:26:01 <nahkiss> Wolf01: nope, still the same landscape 10:26:06 <andythenorth> hover is evil on touch :P 10:26:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is evil on touch :p 10:26:30 <andythenorth> :) 10:26:59 <andythenorth> LordAro: can we swap out one for the other? Paste instead of patch? :P 10:26:59 <Wolf01> nahkiss: try with -1 10:27:31 <Wolf01> Or with 4294967295 10:27:42 <nahkiss> hold on, newgame [randomnumber] didn't actually change the seed, checked with "getseed" 10:27:53 <nahkiss> I guess this has to be manually edited on the openttd.cfg 10:28:32 <Wolf01> nahkiss: No, I read the code and it's the evilest thing I've ever read 10:29:21 <LordAro> andythenorth: hehe, not quite 10:29:41 <Wolf01> If using "newgame" doesn't work in multiplayer, then it's broken in more parts than I thought 10:30:10 *** eekee has joined #openttd 10:31:58 <_dp_> citymania server patch has this line somewhere in it: _settings_newgame.game_creation.generation_seed = GENERATE_NEW_SEED; 10:32:07 <_dp_> coz can't be bothered with this stupid shit :p 10:32:16 *** Gja has joined #openttd 10:34:03 <Wolf01> Yeah, I changed that too in my tries, mainly because it's a waste to set it as random seed and then check again if it's GENERATE_NEW_SEED to set it as random 10:34:45 <Wolf01> BTW, rcon newgame works for me, 1.7.1 10:34:53 <Wolf01> nahkiss: which version you are using? 10:35:01 <nahkiss> 1.7.1 10:40:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 10:40:47 <LordAro> andythenorth: https://i.imgur.com/CIDVpyQ.jpg well that didn't work 10:40:57 <LordAro> let me try something else 10:41:39 <Wolf01> Lolwhat? 10:43:09 <andythenorth> looks good 10:44:27 <LordAro> yeah, that's better 10:44:39 <LordAro> reverted previous patch, JJ's patch applies cleanly(ish) 10:45:05 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 10:45:14 <LordAro> let me tidy the diff up, then i'll submit to FS 10:46:34 <andythenorth> :) 10:47:42 <Wolf01> nahkiss: if you are using rcon, did you set the right password? It fails silently if not, also rcon passwf "newgame [seed]" <- quotes are required 10:47:52 <Wolf01> Also, lunch 10:48:03 <nahkiss> ah, missing quotes I guess 10:49:11 *** debdog has quit IRC 10:49:50 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 10:51:39 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 11:18:34 <andythenorth> wtf 11:18:40 <andythenorth> stations on bridges over stations 11:18:52 <andythenorth> imagine the newgrf drawing headache with that :P 11:19:35 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 11:20:04 *** Gja has quit IRC 11:27:26 * andythenorth found this https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#Environment 11:27:33 <andythenorth> even though it’s pointless 11:27:39 <andythenorth> it’s quite fun updating it to be accurate 11:31:51 <andythenorth> ha ha ha https://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap 11:33:59 *** Gja has joined #openttd 11:44:52 *** ic111 has quit IRC 11:48:22 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 11:48:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But how else can we make a realistic model of Tamworth? 11:48:42 <ic111> Regarding https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#Environment, I just had a look into some of the threads, and to be honest, for some of them the thread doesn´t make clear why they hit "Rejected" state. E.g. this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20211&start=140#p907839 is one of the last comments regarding custom bridge heads - it reads like a usual review comment, at least at the end of the thread I don´t see re 11:48:50 <ic111> (hope this is no double post, had some connection problems) 11:49:12 <andythenorth> I have labelled them rejected, because they’ve been discussed here N times 11:49:15 <andythenorth> and they won’t make it 11:50:19 <ic111> Now I am curious - for this particular one, do we talk about serious technical problems, why it´s hard to impossible to implement, or about some kind of "we don´t like it" 11:50:45 <andythenorth> that depends which dev you get the opinion of 11:50:54 <andythenorth> broadly, not interesting to anyone 11:51:05 <ic111> At first glance, if someone manages to implement that in a proper way, I personally would say, why not have the additional rail connections? 11:51:32 <andythenorth> this might help me, I need to try and write some words for the wiki 11:52:08 <andythenorth> 1. the default expectation for all patches is ‘Rejected’, but that’s not made explicit because somehow it’s thought to be bad 11:52:35 <andythenorth> 2. rational technical/gameplay/codestyle reasons are often sought to justify rejection, this is the wrong approach 11:52:43 <andythenorth> the reasons should be found instead for inclusion 11:53:06 <andythenorth> finally, the major thing that gets something included is ‘Dev was interested and no other devs blocked them' 11:53:22 <andythenorth> so the primary criteria for successful patch is ‘dev was interested' 11:53:52 <ic111> This is clear 11:54:08 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s widely clear :) 11:54:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The problem is that there are almost no active devs 11:54:27 <andythenorth> the mental model seems to be of some pipeline / rational process where all patches will proceed if they are technically good enough 11:54:30 <andythenorth> that is wrong 11:54:57 <andythenorth> FLHerne: no that’s a factor, not The Problem 11:55:10 <andythenorth> if you read forums back to 2007/2008 there were a shitload of active devs 11:55:12 <FLHerne> Which turns almost all external commits into "rejected" by default, which prevents anyone new from becoming active 11:55:22 <andythenorth> but still same complaints about non-moving patches 11:55:48 <ic111> But, at this point, a "Rejected" state reads like a very fundamental decision, for "technical / gameplay / codestyle" reaons, as you describe in (2) 11:55:54 <FLHerne> Ok, a problem is that there are no active devs 11:56:12 <FLHerne> So that everything gets "rejected" simply because no-one's really looking at them 11:56:34 <FLHerne> When there were active devs who still weren't looking at them, it was a different problem :P 11:56:46 <ic111> For me, this is the message "feature is not worth for investing time into it, if you want to contribute something to the game" 11:57:16 <FLHerne> And yes, 'rejected' is clearly the wrong word for the concept you describe 11:57:21 <ic111> But IMHO, you cannot know how people react to a particular patch, before you implemented it. 11:57:59 <andythenorth> fair 11:58:03 <andythenorth> I am curious about the wiki 11:58:06 <andythenorth> is it useful? 11:58:14 <andythenorth> or should it be burnt to the ground? 11:58:26 <ic111> I use it quite seldom, to be honest 11:59:24 <FLHerne> There are definitely useful things on the wiki 11:59:43 <FLHerne> Like the categorised lists of newgrfs, and the tutorial 12:00:19 <ic111> Regarding the "Requested features" page, IMHO it can be a very useful summary about development state 12:00:27 <FLHerne> Last I saw, the settings documentation was mostly useless though (pre-reorganisation) 12:01:28 <andythenorth> LordAro: blitter works for me, thanks 12:02:01 <andythenorth> I think unhelpful stuff is worse than nothing 12:02:03 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature 12:02:08 <andythenorth> ^ that’s basically all wrong 12:02:24 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Rejected_features overlaps with the list of requested features 12:03:13 <andythenorth> this seems to duplicate again https://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_patches 12:03:18 <andythenorth> to what end I don’t know 12:03:50 <andythenorth> this is 50% perfect and 50% absolute rubbish https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development 12:04:05 <eekee> (12:18:40) andythenorth: stations on bridges over stations 12:04:05 <eekee> yesss! gimme!!! 12:04:14 <LordAro> andythenorth: :) 12:05:07 <andythenorth> eekee: why? 12:06:32 <eekee> andythenorth: because i make these insane networks with everything almost on top of everything else anyway XD 12:09:00 <ic111> Stations on bridges IMHO is a candidate, where I personally would probably like it in terms of gameplay, but where (given knowledge about code) I trust devs if they say that implementing this is not feasable. 12:09:22 <andythenorth> I give it a 0% chance 12:09:33 <ic111> I too. 12:11:30 *** ic111 has quit IRC 12:12:14 <eekee> yeah i can believe it's not implementable 12:12:50 <eekee> i just had a thought: a tunnel-station, which is both a tunnel and a station platform 12:13:23 <eekee> that would solve a lot of my wants 12:13:23 <andythenorth> tunnels don’t really exist 12:13:38 <andythenorth> the challenge for bridges and tunnels is that the game stores data in tiles 12:13:40 <eekee> i know, had fun at the edge of a map once lol 12:13:44 <andythenorth> tunnels don’t have any tiles 12:13:58 <andythenorth> trains can’t pathfind to a station that has no tiles, for example 12:14:11 <eekee> what about the tunnel ends? 12:14:22 <FLHerne> There was a proposal to allocate extra strips of tiles to bridges and tunnels 12:14:29 <andythenorth> off-map? 12:14:32 <FLHerne> Which would be its own kind of problem 12:14:34 <FLHerne> Yes 12:15:00 *** urdh_ has joined #openttd 12:15:26 <FLHerne> I guess you'd need to keep them in a quadtree or something, and then if you see a 'bridge above' bit you'd search for the relevant one 12:15:43 <FLHerne> Instead of searching on-map for the bridgehead 12:16:01 <eekee> i'm trying to imagine the simplest thing. train navigates to end of tunnel-station. for cachement, tunnel-station must be linked with ctrl-click to a regular station 12:16:10 <andythenorth> I wish an architectural decision had been made for ‘denser map’ instead of ‘bigger map' 12:16:37 <andythenorth> a 256x256 game with multiple levels is a better playing experience than 2048x2048 mono-level imho 12:17:00 <andythenorth> but I think the UI and newgrf side would be crappy 12:17:03 <eekee> i couldn't decide between them 12:17:05 <eekee> oh yeah 12:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: these two are completely unrelated 12:17:49 <andythenorth> I wondered if somone would point that out :P 12:17:54 <eekee> hehehe 12:18:02 <andythenorth> rheotirical dark pattern of connecting two unrelated issues 12:18:09 <andythenorth> rhetorical * 12:18:20 <andythenorth> currently widely deployed in political speech 12:19:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think they’re orthogonal, at the implementation level? 12:19:07 <LordAro> andythenorth: i never much enjoyed the multiple levels of locomotion 12:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "political speech" reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ9IOEpGlr4 12:19:11 <LordAro> it got messy quickly 12:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: architecturally, yes. (assuming an ideal system with no memory limits) 12:19:53 <eekee> widely deployed in religious speech too :( 12:19:55 *** urdh has quit IRC 12:19:55 *** urdh_ is now known as urdh 12:20:06 *** Alberth has left #openttd 12:21:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think as a design choice, that’s where the focus went 12:21:30 <eekee> anyway, i quite like my tunnel-station idea, but i'm too busy playing to look into coding it :) 12:21:40 <andythenorth> and one design choice often excludes another, even if only by available time to deal with complexity 12:21:55 <eekee> i have to say i do like big maps too 12:22:12 <andythenorth> LordAro: multiple levels probably sucks eh? :) 12:22:20 <andythenorth> I just like the idea of a train dropping 10 levels in a tunnel 12:22:24 <andythenorth> also…lifts! 12:22:49 <andythenorth> could put coal mines actually underground :P 12:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> dropping/raising levels in tunnels is frequently done in mountains 12:23:10 <eekee> oooh :D 12:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (usually in loops) 12:23:35 <andythenorth> spiral tunnel inside mountain 12:25:13 <andythenorth> coal ‘mines’ would be coal seams, underground 12:25:27 <andythenorth> build little networks of trains, moving the coal from multiple seams to a lift 12:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <eekee> what about the tunnel ends? <-- currently, tunnel ends are the only thing that physically exists on the map. hackalittlebit's "signals in tunnels and on bridges" patch uses those to store the data, but that is widely considered a terrible and inflexible approach 12:25:30 <andythenorth> run supplies back in 12:26:12 <andythenorth> “MineOpenTTD" 12:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is basically a case of "this is not Sim<whatever>" 12:27:36 <eekee> yeah i was thinking it's a different game, but then so are some grfs anyway 12:27:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: still trains though eh? 12:27:53 <andythenorth> all I’ve done is added more Z-layers 12:28:01 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: i'm thinking it's so small it doesn't need to be flexible 12:28:06 <andythenorth> could just have the map twice :P 12:28:22 <eekee> can't spiral with only two layers? 12:28:32 <andythenorth> rather than moving vertically through layers, scroll to another map which is the same x,y but another z 12:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: z-layers are fine, it's the "model stuff that happens within one industry" part that doesn't quite fit 12:28:57 <andythenorth> well that would be a newgrf choice 12:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you can fit that into a NewGRF economy with no new NewGRF features 12:29:06 <andythenorth> OpenTTD doesn’t have to do a thing for that 12:29:20 <andythenorth> it’s just FIRS, but moved underground ;) 12:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, vertical lifts would be a new transport type 12:29:44 <andythenorth> variant on pipelines 12:29:48 <andythenorth> but bi-directional 12:30:06 <andythenorth> are the cages balanced, like a funicular? 12:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, they're not at all like pipes 12:30:39 <andythenorth> yeah, pipes are continuous flow at a rate 12:30:51 <andythenorth> this is discrete packets for the full route, at intervals 12:30:56 <andythenorth> more like a train tbh 12:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably types that are funicular-like, and others where there's just a counter-weight 12:31:24 <andythenorth> well discussing this is more fun than fixing the wiki :) 12:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> also: ship lifts 12:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> also: vehicles in vehicles 12:32:07 <andythenorth> mornington crescent 12:32:20 <andythenorth> once vehicles can go in vehicles, then it regresses infinitely no? 12:32:50 <eekee> you could make a limit of the weight 12:33:04 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aVMvVgK_460sv.mp4 I need this 12:33:17 <eekee> btw firs is addictive :D 12:33:26 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 12:33:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 12:34:54 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:35:20 <andythenorth> eekee: good :) 12:35:24 <andythenorth> Wolf01: appealing 12:35:28 <eekee> ^.^ 12:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you make a vehicle that carries all vehicles, does the vehicle carry itself? 12:39:12 <andythenorth> mayor of mayortown 12:40:01 *** tokai has quit IRC 12:40:28 <andythenorth> quak 12:44:09 <Wolf01> Quak 12:47:15 <frosch123> hoi 12:47:44 <LordAro> o/ 12:48:42 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 12:49:15 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 12:49:56 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest3894 12:49:58 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 12:53:29 *** Guest3894 has quit IRC 12:58:28 *** Gja has quit IRC 13:04:04 <andythenorth> _dp_: how can I test this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6610 13:06:34 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27912 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-09-03 15:06:29 +0200 ) 13:06:35 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r13948): [NPF] Reserved track bits were not accounted for when trying to find any safe position. 13:07:14 *** ic111 has quit IRC 13:08:24 <andythenorth> also _dp_ what the hell is this :D https://citymania.org/tools/townsim/layouts/10 13:09:37 <ST2> cmon andythenorth, can't a player a very active nervous system build a town road layout? 13:09:38 <ST2> xD 13:11:25 <andythenorth> ST2: you know what the patch does? o_O 13:11:48 <ST2> I think that's only a simulator 13:13:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: it maximised town growth speed 13:13:55 <andythenorth> I can see houses built in corners 13:14:01 <andythenorth> is that it? 13:14:16 * andythenorth wonders whether multiple road layouts need testing etc 13:14:25 <andythenorth> ‘how to test’ would be useful on patches 13:14:37 <frosch123> unlikely :p 13:14:48 <frosch123> for review you need to understand the code anyway 13:17:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes, it only places houses in corners :p 13:17:42 <_dp_> doesn't directly affect growth speed or anything else 13:18:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, and that layout is just an example of what an effective layout can look like with that patch 13:19:05 <_dp_> doubt anyone will seriously build it though 13:19:06 <andythenorth> the simulator thing is cool 13:19:44 <andythenorth> ok I’m getting houses in corners 13:19:47 <andythenorth> that’s my repro 13:20:57 <andythenorth> _dp_: how is GS building houses, per https://wiki.citymania.org/index.php/Advanced_town_growth 13:21:07 <_dp_> andythenorth, most of testing for that patch comes from checking that it rly doesn't change anything else 13:21:16 <andythenorth> or rather, does GS work there 13:21:41 <andythenorth> I am curious about interaction of GS, newgrf, existing town mechanics 13:22:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, GS usually just controls growth speed, house placing is same with GS or without, and that page describes placing 13:22:35 <andythenorth> ok, that sounds as I’d hoped 13:22:52 <andythenorth> this confused me “GameScript house building command does up to 25 tries for every house” 13:23:26 <_dp_> andythenorth, there is a gs method for instant house construction that works slightly different but it's rarely used 13:24:20 <_dp_> and, yeah, that method basically just calls normal build procedure 25 times (or till success) 13:24:21 <andythenorth> seems better to delegate to town growth mechanism, but eh, I haven’t tried 13:24:32 <andythenorth> (vs. instant) 13:24:45 * andythenorth hasn’t written any town GS 13:24:54 <andythenorth> trying to learn how it works, without writing one :P 13:27:02 <Wolf01> https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/09/02/0213206/will-millennials-be-forced-out-of-tech-jobs-when-they-turn-40 I don't know if I should take this seriously and just go on agriculture or what 13:27:45 <andythenorth> sounds like click-bait 13:28:38 <andythenorth> the problem isn’t age, it’s mindset 13:29:05 <andythenorth> people get trapped by outdated skills because they don’t want, or aren’t supported, to learn new ones 13:29:08 <Wolf01> Tell that to my govern 13:29:46 <frosch123> yep, i have seen people older than 50 who can learn new stuff, and i have seen people at age 25 unwilling to learn new stuff 13:31:09 <andythenorth> I am 39 13:31:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, btw, did you notice benchmarking thing in townsim? 13:31:26 <andythenorth> and I learnt to patch! https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3958#comment14741 13:31:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: simple fix in the screenshot, I could finish the patch... 13:31:50 <andythenorth> _dp_: no, what is it? 13:32:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, hit b key, it grows many towns and shows neat charts :) 13:32:47 <_dp_> like population distribution 13:32:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: that looks way easier than my approach: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/whatsdifferent.png 13:33:02 <andythenorth> has someone reimplemented the OpenTTD algorithm in JS or so _dp_ ? 13:33:11 <frosch123> (screenshot from 2010) 13:33:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, someone was me xD 13:33:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am used to finding quick fixes to web layout problems :P 13:33:28 <andythenorth> especially now we have responsive layouts 13:33:51 * andythenorth plots javascript-in-openttd 13:34:00 <andythenorth> seriously, we could bundle node 13:34:11 <_dp_> for what? 13:34:19 <frosch123> funny, my boss' boss thinks the same at work :p 13:34:42 <andythenorth> _dp_: for logic-as-content 13:35:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, there is squirrel already, it seems to be even better fit 13:35:18 <andythenorth> but node is for inexperienced programmers! 13:35:23 <andythenorth> it’s right there in the readme somewhere 13:35:35 <andythenorth> squirrel is nuts :P 13:35:43 <_dp_> it seems for experienced programmers even squirrel isn't fast enough :p 13:36:29 <frosch123> i guess in ottd the bottleneck is the command execution 13:36:42 <andythenorth> oh 13:37:03 <andythenorth> I probably have to handle config setting in my patch? “vehicle_speed = true” is in openttd.cfg 13:37:14 <andythenorth> or is that old cruft 13:37:38 <_dp_> frosch123, which commands, network? those seem to be fast enough 13:37:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: would anyone notice if it was removed? :p 13:38:08 <frosch123> _dp_: iirc a script can at most run one command per network frame 13:38:08 <andythenorth> breaks savegames? 13:38:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t know tbh :( 13:38:25 <frosch123> so scripts which want to control the whole map are doomed at some point 13:38:26 <andythenorth> I would like to know more about the settings + savegame compatibility 13:38:29 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, but that's just shitty gs implementation 13:38:42 <_dp_> frosch123, our servers run multiple commands without any issues 13:38:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: check settings.ini, if it has SDG_NOT_IN_SAVE or something, you can remove it 13:40:42 <andythenorth> SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE ? 13:41:06 <frosch123> probably 13:42:07 <andythenorth> not found 13:42:15 <andythenorth> also I deleted openttd.cfg, started the game, quit 13:42:20 <andythenorth> vehicle_speed is not written 13:42:40 <andythenorth> now I just need sed to fix all the lang strings :P 13:42:45 <frosch123> well, so someone removed it before :) 13:42:53 <andythenorth> good choice 13:43:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: don't post a patch with the modifies then :p 13:43:10 <frosch123> it's easier to run sed locally 13:43:44 <andythenorth> not ‘easier’ for me :P 13:43:44 <_dp_> hm, now that I think of it I seem to remember that 1 frame delay being there for some very silly reason 13:43:50 <andythenorth> my favourite sed is remote 13:43:52 <andythenorth> by someone else 13:44:23 <frosch123> maybe submit a git feature request: allow commits to be defined as sed/awk/python script for easy merging of generated changes :) 13:44:55 <andythenorth> hmm 13:45:45 <frosch123> _dp_: it's needed if the script wants to know about success immediately, otherwise you need some asynchronous script methods, bundles commands or no success response 13:46:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: see, maybe you can learn about new reject reasons that way 13:46:33 <_dp_> frosch123, I know, and there is no "if" it always thinks script needs the result 13:47:11 <_dp_> frosch123, but since it's a server it could possibly execute that command immediately instead of putting it in queue 13:48:33 <_dp_> "In theory, we could execute the command right away, but then the client on the server can do everything 1 tick faster than others." 13:48:45 <_dp_> found it, that that silly reason 13:49:41 <_dp_> like, who the fuck cares if it's 1 tick faster 13:50:11 <_dp_> and on dedicated server it makes no sense whatsoever 13:52:25 <LordAro> frosch123: you should definitely look at #6469 13:52:27 <_dp_> actually, doesn't that make 2 frame delay for gs? 13:54:17 <andythenorth> we don’t have a FS bot eh? 13:54:38 <_dp_> who wanted to remove some settings? there's _settings_client.network.frame_freq 13:54:48 <_dp_> don't think it even works with freq != 1 13:55:25 <_dp_> I mean 0 13:56:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: we do, it's named "andy" 13:56:28 <andythenorth> I didn’t provide the link :P 13:56:43 <frosch123> @fs 6469 13:56:43 <DorpsGek> frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6469 13:56:45 <frosch123> that one? 13:56:47 <andythenorth> yup 13:56:48 <andythenorth> that one 13:59:19 <frosch123> hmm, mingw-w64 project has a feed on the newest tracker comments on front page :p 13:59:44 <_dp_> omg, why does it completely change gs execution order with DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS? 14:00:27 <_dp_> oh, it's not changing, just disabling 14:00:59 <frosch123> gs is disabled in replay, for obvous reasons 14:01:55 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, so DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS is replay? I though it's just dump 14:04:17 <_dp_> looks like that 1 tick handicap doesn't even add a tick, it's just because of queueing it gets delayed 14:04:20 <frosch123> yes, dumping does not require a compiler option 14:04:47 <andythenorth> copy-paste is rejected, right? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=76923 14:04:52 <andythenorth> over and over again? 14:05:10 <_dp_> why btw? 14:05:26 <andythenorth> not interesting? 14:05:59 <_dp_> idk, I could use it to build X rails :p 14:06:10 <_dp_> and mb some stations 14:06:36 <andythenorth> I could think of so many uses :) 14:06:45 <andythenorth> but same as I said to ic111 earlier 14:06:51 <andythenorth> everything is rejected by default 14:07:03 <andythenorth> there doesn’t have to be a reason, except profound lack of interest 14:07:16 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 14:07:25 <_dp_> andythenorth, there seem to be a lot of interest from players :p 14:07:37 <andythenorth> I agree 14:07:51 <andythenorth> doesn’t change the facts though :) 14:08:04 <andythenorth> I am trying to perfect the nicest, most accurate, least hostile version of 14:08:13 <andythenorth> “everything is pretty much rejected” 14:08:32 <frosch123> LordAro: any experience with mingw? 14:08:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, "game is dead"? :p 14:08:42 <andythenorth> the explanations of ‘this is all free, you don’t pay for it, developers give their own time” etc 14:08:47 <andythenorth> are true but boring 14:09:04 <andythenorth> _dp_: it’s been dead since start, I’ve been reading older forum + commits 14:09:06 <LordAro> frosch123: too much 14:09:11 <LordAro> what's up? 14:09:22 <frosch123> LordAro: can you confirm/deny that there is no mingw version which supports both win9x and c++11. i.e. mingw only running gcc 4.8, and mingw-w64 only supporting 2000+ 14:09:23 <andythenorth> old forum posts are full of “but why is cool feature X not done yet" 14:09:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, so it's undead? 14:09:44 <andythenorth> walking dead 14:10:03 <andythenorth> rolling stone, gathers no moss 14:10:09 <_dp_> crawling and eating brainz xD 14:10:18 <andythenorth> hard to board a moving train 14:10:23 <andythenorth> bad metaphors :P 14:10:47 <andythenorth> my 2 line patch for speed turns out to assert 14:10:54 * andythenorth is not a programmer :( 14:11:33 <LordAro> frosch123: that sounds about right 14:11:36 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think I'm overdoing it with symfony... 435435 classes just to upload and validate a file 14:11:59 <LordAro> i don't think it'd be a great loss to lose support for win9x 14:12:19 <frosch123> no, but it's better with a good reason :) 14:12:22 <LordAro> Wolf01: lol 14:14:05 * andythenorth just dropped IE 9 :P 14:14:11 <andythenorth> it’s nice to lose old things 14:14:24 <Wolf01> Eh, request was fine... no "error" array in symfony request, that's the validator role, you must do an object (maybe an Entity if you want to save the details somewhere) and apply the validator which required ClassMetadata and Constraints... 14:15:00 <Wolf01> Also, better to use generated forms so it can handle the visual errors too 14:17:23 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd 14:22:01 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 14:22:30 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:22:48 <_dp_> hm, and why did I suddenly remember some piece of indian wisdom... 14:25:49 * _dp_ now thinking of making a grf with undead ponies 14:26:51 <Flygon_> > grf with undead ponies 14:26:54 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon 14:27:03 <Flygon> Ragnarok Online's .grfs aren't close enough? :B 14:46:45 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 14:56:50 *** eekee has quit IRC 14:58:19 <andythenorth> undead pony can’t dance _dp_? 14:59:35 <_dp_> huh? 15:02:58 <andythenorth> indian wisdom 15:06:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, dead pony can't, undead can :p 15:20:00 <andythenorth> wisdom 15:20:08 <andythenorth> is it bedtime yet? 15:20:27 <Wolf01> Mmmh, after doing it I'm asking myself if a log parser is actually useful :| 15:21:36 <andythenorth> does it work? o_O 15:22:14 <Wolf01> Almost, but that's the same stuff you can read by opening the file with a notepad 15:22:20 <andythenorth> can it count? 15:22:22 <Wolf01> It could only be useful for stats 15:22:38 <andythenorth> purpose of a log parser is aggregating and filtering 15:23:41 <Wolf01> Also, it seem that windows logs are different than os x ones, and maybe it is different depending on game version too 15:24:00 <andythenorth> different format? 15:24:03 <andythenorth> or different content? 15:24:14 <Wolf01> Both 15:24:27 <Wolf01> Ok, format is plain text 15:24:40 <andythenorth> different key/value pairs? 15:24:49 <Wolf01> Some yes 15:25:03 <andythenorth> just count them if they’re present, otherwise ignore 15:25:30 * andythenorth isn’t actually sure this is useful yet 15:25:35 <andythenorth> but it’s interesting exercise 15:25:38 <Wolf01> Yes, it already does that, but from the log you passed me I can't load a section 15:25:48 <Wolf01> Which works in my logs 15:26:26 <andythenorth> more logs https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=crash%3A&project=1&search_name=&has_attachment=1 15:27:04 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:35:36 <Wolf01> Mmmh there is a F2P trains MMO on steam... 15:38:35 <Wolf01> Ok, not true, not on steam 15:41:15 <andythenorth> http://forums.accuweather.com/uploads/post-13204-1394292647.gif 16:01:06 <frosch123> who is the guy at the end? 16:01:48 <andythenorth> didn’t watch that far :) 16:01:55 <andythenorth> good though 16:02:03 <frosch123> well, i mean the one before it restarts :p 16:02:50 <andythenorth> now I am watching again :P 16:03:27 <andythenorth> ha 16:04:01 * andythenorth will now present his New OpenTTD Economy All Rebalanced PDF 16:04:47 <frosch123> does it involve sending bitcoins to andy? 16:05:44 <andythenorth> intriguing, but now 16:05:50 <andythenorth> no * 16:05:57 <andythenorth> it will involve a lot of typos 16:10:30 <andythenorth> trolling aside, I have started roughing out some ideas 16:10:37 <andythenorth> but it seems like a really hard problem 16:11:01 <andythenorth> somewhere there is an overlap of concerns between towns, economy, cargo payment and maybe industry 16:11:17 <andythenorth> and another overlap between newgrf and GS 16:11:47 <andythenorth> on balance, NoTrees -> newgrf might be more fun :P 16:13:24 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 16:20:20 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature 16:20:25 <andythenorth> ^ should I just delete that? 16:20:34 <andythenorth> I considered rewriting it 16:20:40 <andythenorth> e.g. “Join irc” etc 16:20:47 <andythenorth> but I think “No” is just easier 16:23:06 <LordAro> definitely needs rewriting 16:23:39 <andythenorth> there’s no delete in a wiki? 16:23:46 <andythenorth> there is junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_TODO 16:23:53 <andythenorth> and more junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Features 16:23:56 <LordAro> something along the lines of "it's important to receive some feedback on your idea first, as it may have already been done, worked on, or otherwise rejected for some reason or another" 16:24:05 <andythenorth> and more junk https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_(Air)Ports 16:24:14 <LordAro> heh 16:24:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth: you can redirect those page to a "No" page 16:24:23 <LordAro> needs sysop to delete a page 16:24:56 * andythenorth looks for a list of sysops 16:24:59 <Wolf01> Deleting stuff on internet is always bad 16:25:35 * andythenorth wonders if we could ‘unofficial’ the wiki 16:25:54 <andythenorth> I like wikia fan wikis http://lego.wikia.com/wiki/LEGO_Wiki 16:26:14 <andythenorth> I am twitchy about our wiki because it’s Highly Official 16:26:19 <andythenorth> but also All Wrong 16:26:41 <andythenorth> I don’t care about other people being wrong on the internet... 16:27:10 <andythenorth> we could write some version controlled docs, and literally abandon the wiki :P 16:27:30 <ic111> Isn't there more the caption the problem of that page? 16:27:40 <ic111> The caption tells "how to request a feature" 16:27:57 <ic111> and the text tells me, that I should choose how finished the feature is, measured in percent 16:28:25 <andythenorth> it’s all just wrong :) 16:28:33 <andythenorth> there is no mechanic for ‘requesting a feature' 16:28:46 <andythenorth> that presumes some kind of service is offered 16:29:26 <Wolf01> Eh, make the wiki readonly for non-devs 16:29:55 <Wolf01> Changes to the wiki must be sent with FS 16:30:00 <Wolf01> More tasks 16:30:26 <andythenorth> just need a bonfire 16:30:29 <andythenorth> who’s op? 16:31:56 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Category:SysOp 16:32:57 <Wolf01> Some names I've never seen in the latest 6-8 years 16:33:09 <LordAro> heh 16:33:29 <LordAro> probably doesn't need sysop, tbh 16:33:45 <LordAro> some-privilege-higher-than-standard-user 16:34:27 <Wolf01> An admin can do it for sure 16:35:31 <Wolf01> Maybe an editor too 16:35:45 <Wolf01> I was editor on a wiki and I could create redirects 16:36:24 <Wolf01> BTW GTG, BBL 16:38:30 <LordAro> anyone can create redirects 16:38:46 <andythenorth> I don’t want to just vandalise 16:38:53 <andythenorth> but currently I’m tempted to just delete the contents 16:39:06 <andythenorth> maybe I should post in forums 16:39:11 <LordAro> i presume there's a "deletion" template somewhere? 16:39:41 <andythenorth> there’s 'outdated' 16:39:49 <andythenorth> but I couldn’t see a ‘deleted' 16:40:22 <andythenorth> ah https://wiki.openttd.org/Template:Delete 16:40:33 <andythenorth> awesome 16:40:34 <ic111> To be honest, I don't completely understand the problem 16:40:59 <ic111> A description what one should do if one has a suggestion IMHO is a senseful thing in such a project 16:41:17 <ic111> I mean, you don't need to use the strong word "request" 16:42:08 <ic111> But changing the page to something like "how to propose a suggestion", together with a link to the suggestion forum, and a clear hint that one should look before, what has already been suggested? 16:43:24 <andythenorth> oh yeah that’s fine 16:43:26 <andythenorth> there’s other stuff 16:43:41 <andythenorth> dead pages 16:44:14 <ic111> In which respect "dead"? 16:45:37 <andythenorth> e.g. https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_TODO 16:45:46 <andythenorth> also https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Features 16:46:14 <andythenorth> also https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Sets 16:47:58 <ic111> Wasn't there a much more detailed list for the latter one (NewGRF_Sets) somewhere? 16:48:07 <ic111> So yes, I see why you need Deletion... 16:50:50 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF#Version_1.0_and_earlier <- who cares? 16:50:55 <andythenorth> it’s dead 16:51:57 <ic111> Something for the computer archaeologists? 16:52:50 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:52:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:54:48 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:55:09 <andythenorth> pages like this are a waste of people’s lives 16:55:11 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg 16:57:27 *** ic111 has quit IRC 17:14:07 <LordAro> andythenorth: i wouldn't say so 17:14:21 <LordAro> i think the subpages are perhaps a bit redundant 17:22:35 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 17:23:55 <andythenorth> but we can generate openttd.cfg from the src 17:24:04 <andythenorth> people writing it all out again…blearch 17:25:04 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 17:25:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 17:25:52 <LordAro> o/ 17:26:24 <Alberth> o/ 17:35:07 <andythenorth> hi Alberth :) 17:39:06 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 17:39:36 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 17:43:07 <andythenorth> web translations have been a massive win for OpenTTD, yes/no? 17:44:05 <Alberth> think so indeed 17:44:29 <Alberth> at least for newgrf and scripts 17:44:37 <andythenorth> great :) 17:44:41 <andythenorth> it’s nice to win 17:44:46 <Alberth> \o/ 17:45:03 * andythenorth is on a wiki rampage 17:45:11 <andythenorth> wondering about writing some actual docs 17:45:12 <Alberth> openttd itself has had a web translator for eons :) 17:45:32 <andythenorth> wondering if we can have a docs project, fed by pull requests, and encourage translations of the docs 17:45:49 <Alberth> what docs? 17:46:00 <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does 17:46:02 <Alberth> of course you can have a docs project 17:46:09 <andythenorth> some of wiki is…great 17:46:11 <andythenorth> some is…awful 17:46:14 <andythenorth> some is just old 17:46:39 <andythenorth> BUT 17:46:42 <V453000> stuffz 17:46:44 <V453000> iz back 17:46:53 <andythenorth> every docs project I’ve been involved in 17:46:54 <Alberth> Vz are back too :) 17:47:04 <andythenorth> gets stuck on an argument about ‘use Sphinx or not?' 17:47:04 <andythenorth> :P 17:47:26 <V453000> Sphinx has no nose 17:49:02 <Alberth> sphinx is nice, but somewhat complicated 17:49:54 <Alberth> markdown may be enough for a wiki-ish thing 17:50:11 <Alberth> eclipse picked asciidoc, never looked at it 17:50:58 <andythenorth> I like https://readthedocs.org/ 17:51:17 <andythenorth> it can import from a repo 17:52:05 <frosch123> why would other stuff be better than the wiki? 17:52:16 <andythenorth> that is the question 17:52:18 <andythenorth> and I don’t know 17:52:31 <andythenorth> on a subjective level, I hate the wiki theme 17:52:38 <andythenorth> and I wouldn’t want to try and fix that 17:52:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: that's just because it's old 17:52:46 <Alberth> wiki lacks main structure, imho 17:52:53 <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does 17:52:54 <LordAro> newer mediawiki's have different themes 17:53:07 <andythenorth> everyone knows the strengths and weaknesses of wikis, eh? 17:53:31 <LordAro> regardless, this constant bikeshedding is useless 17:53:42 <andythenorth> where’s the nuclear reactor? o_O 17:53:51 <LordAro> andythenorth: north korea 17:54:01 <andythenorth> and the one we’re approving? 17:54:33 <Alberth> what I mean is, I think it would help if you have a table of contents (probably 2 levels or so) 17:55:11 <andythenorth> the current FAQ pages in the wiki are pretty sound imo 17:55:13 <andythenorth> I just read them 17:55:22 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ 17:55:50 <frosch123> Alberth: anything a bot or extension couldn't solve? 17:56:44 <Alberth> can it orgianize things in logical coherent groups? 17:57:05 <andythenorth> it probably needs a human 17:57:10 <andythenorth> unfortunately 17:57:16 <frosch123> does any other thing do that automatically? :p 17:57:30 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 17:57:52 <andythenorth> AI? 17:57:59 <Alberth> if you have a book, you can see what's in it, and add content at a logical place 17:58:06 <andythenorth> yes 17:58:17 <Alberth> wiki has no back-bone structure like that 17:58:18 <andythenorth> it helps to go trawling the wiki, which I have just done for 2 hours 17:58:22 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 17:58:45 <andythenorth> FWIW, I’m doing this (1) personal interest (2) projects with strong documentation culture AND nice docs are more fun 17:59:11 <andythenorth> we have pages like https://wiki.openttd.org/Installation 18:00:43 <frosch123> why would you edit openttd.cfg manually? 18:00:58 <Alberth> bit too much for one page, but fair enough 18:01:05 <andythenorth> “because it’s a wiki” frosch123 :) 18:01:11 <andythenorth> although I wanted to say same 18:01:16 <andythenorth> with more swears 18:01:43 <frosch123> well, i have no idea who would be interested in maintaining that site 18:02:09 <frosch123> but apparently people even translated it 18:02:12 <andythenorth> yes 18:02:21 <andythenorth> how ‘official’ is the wiki? 18:02:28 <andythenorth> it’s pretty much fan-curated? 18:02:55 <frosch123> yes, there are no official docs, except the noai/gs reference, and that is doxygen 18:03:16 <andythenorth> noai/gs works really well btw 18:03:26 <frosch123> it's a "dump your info" place, and i don't see how anything else would fly 18:03:44 <andythenorth> it’s so long since I started playing 18:03:54 <andythenorth> that I can’t think how to write a ‘get started’ guide :) 18:04:22 <andythenorth> but eh 18:04:39 <andythenorth> if I can be arsed, I could just start a repo and a readthedocs account? 18:04:45 <andythenorth> it would be ‘unofficial’ but eh 18:05:03 <frosch123> what would it be better in? 18:05:13 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 18:05:16 <frosch123> that everything is written by you? 18:05:22 <frosch123> how far would you get? 18:05:27 <andythenorth> yes 18:05:32 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 18:05:57 <andythenorth> I would bet that it it more likely to go on the pile of ‘failed ideas' 18:06:06 <andythenorth> also that I would get pissed off with the idea 18:06:17 <frosch123> not bored off? 18:06:30 <andythenorth> well in one respect it’s a good time to do it 18:06:38 <andythenorth> game doesn’t need to change much between releases 18:06:47 <andythenorth> it’s a nice stable situation 18:07:00 <frosch123> there was a dude on the german forums, wrote a book about ottd, sold it 2 times 18:07:15 <andythenorth> ‘the missing manual’? :) 18:07:29 <frosch123> it also had a chapter how to play with firs or something 18:07:41 <andythenorth> there are multiple youtube guides now too 18:08:01 <andythenorth> and the redditors 18:08:04 <frosch123> though iirc the guy never player with firs, so it likely was more like "first impressions with firs" 18:08:16 <andythenorth> ha 18:08:24 <andythenorth> maybe I should just fix this, and go back to FIRS :P https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature 18:10:48 <frosch123> 4k pages on the wiki, assuming that at least half are translation, you have 10 per day :) 18:10:53 <frosch123> well, less 18:10:59 <frosch123> (for a year) 18:11:37 <Alberth> just update of the manual would be enough imho 18:12:12 <frosch123> so you want to separate "manual" and "random dumping place"? 18:12:41 <andythenorth> yes 18:12:42 <andythenorth> :) 18:12:49 <andythenorth> I am not going to ‘fix’ the wiki 18:12:50 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Train_Comparison <- does that belong into the manual? 18:12:56 <andythenorth> nope 18:13:00 <Alberth> me? no, but a lot of pages are about old versions 18:13:34 <andythenorth> eh, partly I got motivated becuase of the CityBuilder docs :) 18:14:22 <andythenorth> CityMania * 18:14:47 <andythenorth> shiny tools :P https://citymania.org/tools/townsim/layouts/10 18:15:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: what’s your opinion on https://wiki.openttd.org/Train_Comparison ? 18:15:35 <frosch123> every vehicle newgrf has a similar page 18:15:55 <frosch123> so it's probably valid 18:16:02 <andythenorth> per http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/docs/html/road_vehicles.html 18:16:21 <andythenorth> I dropped most of the stats though 18:16:23 <andythenorth> it’s a teaser 18:17:25 <andythenorth> the page with all the vehicles is classic fan wikia stuff http://tropico.wikia.com/wiki/Mine_(Tropico_3_and_4) 18:17:35 <andythenorth> what would a manual say? 18:17:40 <andythenorth> ‘get opengfx’ 18:19:35 <frosch123> https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Wartortle_(Pok%C3%A9mon) <- i don't think ottd can provide a page like that for every vehicle :p 18:20:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: the installer already gets opengfx 18:20:20 <andythenorth> ha 18:20:27 <andythenorth> well, it’s all solved then :) 18:20:31 <frosch123> see, the page about "installing openttd" confuses me 18:20:42 <frosch123> wouldn't you rather start with a page how to use the mouse? 18:20:50 <frosch123> or how to find the installation instructions? 18:21:06 <andythenorth> we had some docs at work that explained how to search 18:21:11 <andythenorth> ‘type your query in the box' 18:21:17 <andythenorth> ‘press “search”' 18:21:23 <andythenorth> I requested them deleted :P 18:21:53 <frosch123> or is the purpose of those pages to get linked to? 18:21:57 <andythenorth> dunno 18:22:06 <andythenorth> something I see well-intentioned docs writers do 18:22:10 <frosch123> like wolf could link it to his friend, so he does not need to explain how to run ottd in screen 18:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't underestimate the stupidity of the average user 18:22:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree :) 18:22:34 <andythenorth> based on having 6,000 customers often with low computer literacy 18:22:39 <andythenorth> they aren’t stupid 18:22:55 <andythenorth> but some do need support, and the ones that do…don’t read docs 18:23:28 <andythenorth> so well-intentioned docs writers…often explain the obvious bits in depth 18:23:31 <andythenorth> ‘just in case’ 18:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: compare that with the hours that i wasted because someone forgot to include something in the docs that they thought was obvious... 18:23:40 <andythenorth> even though everyone would figure it out 18:23:59 <andythenorth> but the hard bits are often then under-explained 18:24:02 <andythenorth> or badly explained 18:24:25 <andythenorth> and hence ‘delivering goods causes town growth' 18:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people tried documenting "rubbing coins on the side of the device does not help coins getting accepted", that did never stop people 18:26:20 <andythenorth> it’s hard to beat intuition eh? 18:29:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: linking, dunno? 18:29:43 <andythenorth> I think I’ve found some outdated dev pages in wiki, looked some more, added 1+1, and come out with 42 18:29:55 <andythenorth> there are _probably_ more interesting problems, but eh 18:31:58 <andythenorth> reducing it to simplest, I would rather dev page of wiki said ‘find us on [github | gitlab]’ 18:33:59 <andythenorth> for rest…I’d sooner forget it and do something fun :) 18:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> dev pages are always outdated 18:34:35 <andythenorth> burn 18:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because devs are busy deving and not updating dev pages 18:34:57 <andythenorth> in the last 10 years, all the tools for this stuff have completely evolved 18:35:18 <andythenorth> ‘state of dev’ is ‘read git log' 18:35:26 <andythenorth> ‘patches’ is ‘branches + irc logs' 18:35:44 *** Alberth has left #openttd 18:35:49 <andythenorth> ‘how to build’ should just be in readme, which is replicated online in mulltiple place 18:36:50 <frosch123> with ascii art screenshots? 18:37:03 <andythenorth> well played 18:37:12 <andythenorth> we need more unicode points :P 18:37:31 <andythenorth> unicode-killed-ascii-art? 18:54:38 *** ic111 has quit IRC 18:54:43 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 18:55:43 <andythenorth> fair edit? https://wiki.openttd.org/IRC_channel 18:55:50 <andythenorth> or waste of time? 18:57:05 <ic111> Related: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62735 18:57:17 <ic111> It states that reviews are done on openttd.dev 18:57:29 <ic111> But, at least given the logs, there is silence, people talk here 18:58:50 <ic111> I must admit, that this confused me either, in that I took the activity at openttd.dev is indicator of the overall activity 18:58:56 <ic111> for some time 19:05:24 <ic111> test 19:05:49 <andythenorth> yeah that needs fixed 19:05:58 <andythenorth> I wrote some blah blah blah here https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature 19:06:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: o/ 19:06:34 <andythenorth> would you be able to edit? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62735 19:06:41 <andythenorth> it’s a bit misleading about openttd.dev 19:07:22 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 19:11:21 <frosch123> better remove all explicit content and make it only a link to the wiki 19:11:42 <frosch123> easier to edit (than andy's readthedocs) :p 19:12:43 <LordAro> sometimes something like readthedocs is better than a set of protected wiki pages 19:12:51 <LordAro> pull requests, for one 19:13:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: are you quite -1 to external docs :) 19:13:18 <frosch123> LordAro: i think there is no single protected page 19:13:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am +1 to simple permission management 19:13:47 <frosch123> make it easy for people to edit tuff 19:13:50 <frosch123> +s 19:13:55 <LordAro> frosch123: what do you mean? 19:14:15 <frosch123> LordAro: i think our wiki has about none protected pages 19:14:39 <LordAro> https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list ahem. 19:15:08 <frosch123> hmm, the special page to list them is broken :/ 19:15:10 <andythenorth> yeah 19:15:15 <LordAro> lol 19:15:19 <andythenorth> that was a trigger actually 19:15:26 <LordAro> oh jees, mediawiki 1.19 19:15:33 <andythenorth> I didn’t want to be bothering frosch123 or Alberth about locked wiki pages 19:15:36 <LordAro> they're up to 1.29 now 19:15:41 <andythenorth> seemed like a waste of people’s time 19:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you're volunteering to keep it uptodate? 19:16:37 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: well 19:16:41 <frosch123> so, protected pages are: roadmaps, todo list, "to do for releases", various wiki-internal sites 19:17:07 <LordAro> once i've finished with the 2 other wiki's i'm currently working on.. 19:17:08 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/My_spam_blacklist <- and that one, wtf? 19:17:30 <LordAro> frosch123: probably related to the spamblacklist plugin? 19:17:49 <frosch123> ah, maybe 19:17:51 <LordAro> not that it's been touched in over a decade 19:18:08 <frosch123> well, spam is only added manually these days, removing their sites with a bot scared them away 19:19:01 <frosch123> as in: there used to be regular search-machine-index scam on the wiki, which i used to delete manually 19:19:14 <LordAro> heh 19:19:25 *** y2000rtc has joined #openttd 19:19:27 <frosch123> then i got tired and wrote a bot, and after first use they stopped 19:19:32 <y2000rtc> Hi there. 19:19:38 <LordAro> but yeah, i could definitely take a look at upgrading the wiki at some point in the future 19:19:45 <LordAro> once i've cleared my backlog of wiki updates :) 19:19:58 <LordAro> i am far too familiar with it by this point 19:20:22 <LordAro> doesn't look too bad in terms of plugins 19:20:36 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hi Andy. 19:20:40 <andythenorth> hi 19:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems nice... http://steamcommunity.com/app/282760 (has nothing to do with logic circuits) 19:21:07 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Do you have more power for helping me? :) 19:21:08 <LordAro> i'd imagine most of the difficulty would be upgrading to a version of debian newer than oldoldstable 19:21:24 <LordAro> depending how it's setup 19:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a music puzzle 19:21:26 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: try it and see 19:21:31 <andythenorth> maybe / maybe not 19:22:35 <andythenorth> ;) 19:22:48 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, it makes sence. :) 19:28:26 <andythenorth> V453000: so iz? 19:29:57 <V453000> wot 19:30:32 <andythenorth> moar? 19:30:41 <V453000> but wot 19:30:53 <andythenorth> art, stuff 19:30:59 <V453000> iz trying to moar 19:31:08 <andythenorth> life, babies, animals 19:31:08 <V453000> but got drunk yesterday and brain still in retard mode 19:31:15 <andythenorth> inevitable 19:31:18 <V453000> trying to put together final form of temperate trees 19:31:33 <andythenorth> can talk bollocks instead? 19:31:39 <V453000> can 19:31:43 * andythenorth is having a holiday from MOAR 19:31:49 <V453000> =D 19:31:50 <ic111> Regarding https://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#How_to_request_a_feature 19:31:59 * andythenorth pretending to fix docs instead 19:32:03 <andythenorth> such vandalism 19:32:11 <V453000> which docs? 19:32:16 <andythenorth> all 19:32:18 <andythenorth> everywhere 19:32:19 <andythenorth> ever 19:32:24 <andythenorth> V453000: you write good docs 19:32:40 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD: Missing Manual (by V453000 and andythenorth)” 19:32:47 <V453000> XD 19:32:51 <Wolf01> All hail our new overlord andythenorth 19:33:03 <andythenorth> Wolf01: no is unofficial 19:33:16 <V453000> so what kind of manual 19:33:21 <andythenorth> 1. Download 19:33:25 <andythenorth> 2. Enjoy game 19:33:29 <andythenorth> 3. Don’t lick pixels 19:33:32 <andythenorth> FIN 19:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who made an "unofficial" manual (in german) 19:34:16 <andythenorth> frosch said he sold 2 copies of it 19:34:33 <V453000> 4. using cargodist, PBS, zbase, terrain variety distribution, ECS and flyspray for dumb requests is punishable by death 19:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah. something like that :p 19:35:06 <ic111> Is there really no positive vision about contributing to the codebase? Things were help is appreciated, and similar? The way how this page, and similar pages, is written now to a patch developer reads like 'This game is called OpenTTD, but you should not try to contribute' (a bit overstated) 19:35:25 <andythenorth> ic111 dunno, we can try and rewrite it? 19:35:26 *** y2000rtc has quit IRC 19:35:41 <ic111> It's just the impression I had when reading it 19:35:51 <andythenorth> basically, we already have a queue of patches, and some of them even look not shit 19:35:57 <LordAro> it's not quite the same, but https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/blob/master/doc/contributing.md 19:36:08 <andythenorth> more patches just seems to increase pressure on remaining developers to review 19:36:14 <andythenorth> they can either ignore pressure, or quite 19:36:15 <andythenorth> quit * 19:36:40 <andythenorth> neither outcome is optimum all round :P 19:36:43 <ic111> LordAro: Ok, I didn't read that one 19:37:11 <LordAro> and also https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/blob/master/README.md#contributing 19:37:26 <LordAro> ic111: i wouldn't have expected you to? :p 19:37:38 <LordAro> or did you see "open" and not read any further? :p 19:37:58 <ic111> Sorry, I don't understand 19:38:16 <ic111> Maybe place a link to the contributing-pages at the how-to-request-a-feature-page? 19:38:17 <LordAro> those links are for openage, not openttd 19:38:26 <ic111> Ah, sorry 19:38:41 <ic111> I copied the link and started to read 19:38:43 <andythenorth> ic111: possibilities for positive things to do 19:38:54 <andythenorth> - review crashes in flyspray, and try to diagnose 19:39:02 <andythenorth> - review bugs in flyspray and try to repro 19:39:08 <andythenorth> - improve wiki docs 19:39:26 <ic111> Then IMHO you should notice that were you currently simply write "it is very unlikely that we accept your patch" 19:40:08 <andythenorth> I think it would be better to do that here https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development 19:40:27 <andythenorth> wikis being wikis, ours has tended to grow official-looking patch lists, feature request lists etc 19:40:48 <andythenorth> I was just trying to unfuck the feature requests page, which was basically lies, which makes me uncomfortable 19:41:08 <ic111> Certainly a senseful job... 19:41:12 <andythenorth> maybe I should just have deleted the ‘how to feature requests’ section 19:41:16 <andythenorth> and marked the page as old 19:41:50 <LordAro> andythenorth: or delete & link to FAQ Development 19:42:16 <andythenorth> delete the section? 19:42:18 <andythenorth> or the page? 19:42:31 <LordAro> the section 19:42:36 <LordAro> mark page as historical 19:42:41 <andythenorth> yup ok 19:42:42 <LordAro> or someting 19:43:08 <andythenorth> I considered deleting the page, but updating it proved the point that newgrf / GS content wins 19:43:49 <ic111> Well... Not all can be done by NewGrf / GS, and not in all circumstances IMHO it is the best option 19:44:42 <ic111> IMHO it just has its limitations, as every tool has 19:46:45 <ic111> But, regarding the above point, of course pointing out that this is a stable game is valid, but if I listen here, then I don't have the feeling that there are no ideas for senseful codechanges around 19:47:17 *** fat64 has joined #openttd 19:47:18 *** y2000rtc has joined #openttd 19:47:24 <ic111> So, IMHO one should try to direct people into a senseful direction, instead of telling them "senseless to contribute" (again overstated) 19:47:49 <andythenorth> I guess 19:48:07 <andythenorth> we’re slightly trapped, in that the number of people left who can review 19:48:15 <andythenorth> is possibly too small to increase the number of people who can review 19:48:20 <andythenorth> but eh 19:48:52 <ic111> Yes, this is probably a problem 19:54:33 <ic111> Maybe this is something one could mention on such pages: (1) We have little manpower to review patches, as we all do this in our spare time, (2) We have little time to review patches that in an unnecessary way deviate from coding style etc., so try to deliver us quality, (3) Thus, be prepared to wait for a longer time, maybe no one finds the time for your patch at all, 19:57:51 <LordAro> ^ 19:57:55 <LordAro> good words 19:58:53 <andythenorth> it’s kinder than mine 19:59:00 <andythenorth> I’m just inclined to make it more of a game :P 19:59:10 <andythenorth> I get a lot of ponies 19:59:30 <andythenorth> and I treat each one as a game, trying to find out how to get someone interested, and what I have to do to help 19:59:39 <andythenorth> just turning up and demanding…doesn’t work 20:00:03 <andythenorth> unfortunately, even a well prepared patch can appear like a demand, to a reviewer 20:00:11 <andythenorth> it wasn’t always asked for, then it becomes work 20:00:27 <andythenorth> and someone who is rejected is naturally offended, where no offense was intended 20:01:46 <ic111> Basically, this is the question which features are in theory appreciated, if someone does the work, and which are regarded as unnecessary / unwanted 20:02:04 <_dp_> hmm... I just checked my patches and curiously it seems that none of my patches that were merged I ever brought up in irc 20:02:10 <_dp_> ones that I did are still open :p 20:02:12 <andythenorth> ha ha 20:02:17 <andythenorth> empiricism > theory 20:05:06 <andythenorth> ic111 it’s impossible for me to answer 20:05:32 <andythenorth> based on the last 12 months, only peter113*, frosch, alberth and adf88 can answer for what’s appreciated ;) 20:06:08 <andythenorth> it’s easy to say stuff like ‘code style’, ‘doesn’t desync’ etc 20:06:20 <andythenorth> but I can’t give more guide than that 20:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what's the takeaway here? if you keep your patches secret they get merged easier? :p 20:06:58 <Eddi|zuHause> correlation > causality :p 20:07:04 <andythenorth> https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=commit&s=_dp_ 20:09:01 <andythenorth> ic111: probably distinguish feature / patch quite strongly 20:09:15 <andythenorth> codechange / fix patches get added at a pretty good rate imho 20:09:20 <andythenorth> based on scanning https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=shortlog;pg=1 20:09:32 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, no takeaway, just observation :p 20:10:25 <andythenorth> V453000: haz tried JGR patchpack? 20:10:33 <V453000> probably yes at some point 20:10:45 <_dp_> btw, I don't think I've ever heard anything like "that's a great idea, code it and we'll merge it" here. 20:10:47 <V453000> generally I boycott patches unless someone really makes me try it for some reason 20:10:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: patches are no anonymous submission. a patch by someone is easier to review if the previous patch by that person was easy to review 20:10:56 <V453000> mainly cause save compatibility 20:11:02 <_dp_> even though people constantly suggest stuff 20:11:34 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: If you don't publicise things to random semi-interested people, they don't get bikeshedded? 20:11:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s just whuffie :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie 20:12:22 <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW 20:12:31 <V453000> yes that I know 20:13:25 <andythenorth> _dp_: “code it and we’ll merge it” happened at least once https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=commit;h=3f036c6af2c43f582c61761b6c4ffe34954508f3 20:13:57 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW <- while our ambition is packed full of Not* 20:14:24 <andythenorth> it’s worth trying 20:14:41 <andythenorth> I think it’s really good having a giant patch pack full of everything 20:15:07 <andythenorth> it’s a place to try the ideas, instead of hot air theorising 20:15:14 <Wolf01> BTW, could we finish NRT? 20:15:17 * andythenorth would _never_ just talk about something :P 20:15:38 <andythenorth> Wolf01 yes, but we’ve got merge conflicts with openttd master 20:15:42 <andythenorth> and I can’t fix them 20:15:45 <andythenorth> tried earlier 20:16:01 <Wolf01> I could try to fix them, where are the conflicts? 20:16:43 <andythenorth> have you got openttd set up as a remote? 20:17:11 <Wolf01> No, is nrt/master in sync? 20:17:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, that's 2012, I was hardly even playing openttd back then :p 20:17:32 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxrhye6g6 20:17:53 <andythenorth> my patching success was short-lived :P 20:18:42 <Wolf01> WTF github doesn't have a button for swapping base with compare? 20:19:36 <andythenorth> somewhere 20:19:39 <andythenorth> but it’s confusing 20:19:49 <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear 20:20:03 <V453000> some of the patches are pretty impressive, mostly the quality of life gui stuff, things like signals on bridges etc are plain dumb shit, but moar better UI is definitely a good way to go in my opinion 20:20:04 <V453000> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53394 20:20:06 <V453000> like this 20:20:23 <_dp_> that callback though... I remember not liking it for some reason :p 20:20:28 <andythenorth> the zoom out viewport worked better than I thought 20:20:37 <andythenorth> I was 99% certain it would chug 20:20:41 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear <- it only appear if you don't have any commit 20:20:49 <andythenorth> it’s useless zooming out to 128x but eh 20:21:39 <Wolf01> Zooming out to > 8x is useless, but zooming out to minimap is really nice... see factorio 20:22:23 <V453000> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35805 this is great, intuitive as fuck 20:22:30 <_dp_> ah, I remembery why, it makes default production levels totally unconfigurable :p 20:22:46 <andythenorth> V453000: try using build-and-refit in game, it’s total shit 20:23:07 <michi_cc> And if the existing patch for that wouldn't duplicate and reimplement the whole minimap code it might've already been merged. 20:23:25 <V453000> really? 20:23:26 <V453000> why? 20:23:33 <andythenorth> terrible UI 20:23:39 <andythenorth> it adds a toggle, pointless 20:23:40 <andythenorth> it’s ugly 20:23:42 <andythenorth> it’s confusing 20:23:42 <V453000> wait how exactly does it work? 20:23:46 <andythenorth> and lang strings won’t work 20:23:55 <V453000> it builds the vehicle in the refit that you were filtering? 20:24:01 <Wolf01> Build and refit should be the standard action for refitable vehicles 20:24:03 <V453000> I might be misunderstanding 20:24:31 <Wolf01> Luckily the grfs I use support refit at station 20:25:14 <andythenorth> it’s not a crap idea 20:25:19 <andythenorth> it’s just a crap implementation 20:25:25 <andythenorth> lots of the patches have awful UI 20:25:33 <andythenorth> it just adds mess 20:25:36 <Wolf01> Like the current UI is state of art 20:25:44 <andythenorth> it’s mostly coherent 20:26:04 <Wolf01> Lol... we have 265 styles on different UIs 20:26:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01: JGR patchpack is a clean compile - try it :) 20:26:53 <andythenorth> it’s a good vision of how the UI collapses into hell if patches are just added with no desgin 20:26:56 <andythenorth> design * 20:27:01 <Wolf01> Yeah, but I'm afraid to abandon trunk if I try that 20:27:39 <andythenorth> it has your measure tool in it :) 20:28:11 <V453000> eh, patches 20:28:11 <_dp_> hm, to me it looks that build and refit is no faster than doing it with regular interface... 20:28:20 <andythenorth> it’s not a bad idea 20:28:21 <_dp_> but I usually know what wagon I need 20:28:22 <V453000> really not that much useful in these 60 patches tbh 20:28:35 <_dp_> mb it will be better if it said like "buy and refit to oil" 20:28:57 * andythenorth stops discussing buy-and-refit before FLHerne says ‘bikeshedding’ again :) 20:29:23 <andythenorth> the local authority overlay is pretty good in JGR 20:29:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, until you look at code :p 20:30:04 <andythenorth> is it bad? 20:30:16 <V453000> doing something about breakdowns would be awesome, Hirundo makes it better by adding variety, but I think the most critical problem is still there - properly serviced vehicles should never break down. Not realistic, but gameplay do stuff - get rewarded good. Maybe at least something along the lines like the train-stopping breakdowns would be prevented when reliability would be above some threshold would make sense. 20:30:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, looping over all towns for each tile 20:30:30 <andythenorth> :o 20:30:31 <V453000> though I don't think you can explain reliability with people pulling emergency brakes XD can remove that one 20:30:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Eh, I love that patch :P 20:30:42 <FLHerne> (using JGRPP) 20:30:52 * andythenorth proposes newgrf tile overlays :P 20:30:59 <_dp_> and those frame sprites don't make great overlays either 20:31:02 <andythenorth> no 20:31:10 <FLHerne> Hey, that's a pretty cool idea actually 20:31:11 <andythenorth> and it should be on transparency 20:31:18 <andythenorth> newgrf can read town 20:31:22 <andythenorth> newgrf can read other stuff 20:31:40 <_dp_> yeah, but transparency is probably a no go for 8 bit 20:31:51 <andythenorth> I mean it should be on transparency palette 20:32:14 <andythenorth> not a separate whole new window called ‘zoning' 20:32:30 <V453000> sleep time 20:32:31 <V453000> bai 20:32:35 <andythenorth> which I first thought was an implementation of the zones in original sim city 20:32:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am very much in favour of highlighting stuff, like station catchment toggleable in station window etc... it just needs a shared solution, which means refactoring instead of feature-jumping 20:32:37 <andythenorth> bai V453000 20:32:42 <V453000> made some progress on trees :) iz good 20:32:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: +1 20:32:54 <V453000> frosch123: arr +1 20:33:03 <andythenorth> having tried JGR PP, and read the threads for the patches 20:33:09 <frosch123> but we did not even figure out the transparency gui :p 20:33:11 <andythenorth> it all lacks any architecture 20:33:17 *** fat64 has quit IRC 20:33:35 <andythenorth> at least where I see it, in UI 20:33:40 * andythenorth can’t speak for code 20:33:53 <andythenorth> but JGR patchpack *looks* like this http://thecodelesscode.com/case/33 20:34:01 <andythenorth> (scroll for picture) 20:34:34 <ic111> frosch123: When I hear something like this, then I ask me the question why things like that ("needs refactoring") isn't mentioned on a how-to-contribute-page? 20:34:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, ah, dunno, it doesn't quite fit there. zoning is usually something you want to just check and hide again 20:34:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, and transparency you set up once and use hotkey 20:35:10 <andythenorth> yes - check and hide again - just like toggling transparency on and off 20:35:14 <FLHerne> Useful things in JGRPP, IMO: Restrictive signals, conditional-order-by-train-length, buy-and-refit, usable level crossings, town-cargo factor 20:35:18 <andythenorth> it’s even the same case 20:35:35 <andythenorth> hiding houses or industries is when you’re constructing, which is also when overlays for LA are wanted 20:36:10 <andythenorth> FLHerne: how do the restrictive signals work, didn’t get that far yet? 20:36:14 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's only transpacency mode that gets toggled, individual settings in palette usually are not 20:36:15 <FLHerne> A lot of the other stuff is either really niche or not useful or doesn't really work 20:36:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can have signals that disallow trains >n length, or not carrying X 20:36:42 <andythenorth> newgrf :P 20:36:48 <_dp_> andythenorth, and btw some zonings make more sense combined with building tools 20:36:55 <_dp_> like catchment areas 20:37:00 <FLHerne> andythenorth: They let you take a lot of really messy conditional waypoint orders out 20:37:13 <andythenorth> oh god, even more signals in the UI :( 20:37:15 <andythenorth> my eyes 20:37:17 <_dp_> or industry placement (that's not in jgrpp) 20:37:20 <andythenorth> wtf 20:37:23 <FLHerne> (possibly more so if you're overabusing station refits) 20:37:37 <andythenorth> _dp_: eh you might be right 20:38:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, you set rules on normal signals 20:38:09 <FLHerne> There's no extra type 20:38:14 <andythenorth> eh? 20:38:17 <andythenorth> there’s an orange one 20:38:27 <andythenorth> there are now 14 signals 20:38:36 <andythenorth> of those, most people only need PBS colour light 20:38:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that's progsigs. Different patch :P 20:38:50 <FLHerne> Vast overkill 20:39:01 <andythenorth> there’s a spanner icon 20:39:04 <andythenorth> what’s that? 20:39:10 <andythenorth> fix broken signals? 20:39:12 <andythenorth> Realism 20:39:23 <andythenorth> new breakdown mode: signal failure 20:39:32 <FLHerne> I have a gear, but not a spanner. Otherbaseset? 20:39:57 <andythenorth> yup 20:40:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The one that says "Routefinding restriction" is the useful one 20:40:36 <andythenorth> trying to make it work 20:40:37 <FLHerne> Progsigs theoretically seem nice, but they're far too much of a pain to actually bother with in any real game 20:40:48 <andythenorth> it even has a right arrow in case you want to move the viewport 100px 20:40:51 <andythenorth> fantastic feature 20:41:03 <andythenorth> glad that’s there 20:41:22 <FLHerne> Click "Routefinding restriction", click a signal, set the restrictions 20:41:47 <andythenorth> I have 20:41:55 <andythenorth> it’s one of those UIs 20:42:00 <andythenorth> that would be easier if it wasn’t 20:42:13 <andythenorth> stuff like this is just easier to type in code 20:42:26 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:42:32 <andythenorth> if tl>2: deny 20:42:36 <andythenorth> rather than 7 shit buttons 20:42:38 <FLHerne> Agreed 20:43:11 <FLHerne> OTOH, having to read syntax documention before playing would be a bit of a nuisance 20:43:36 <andythenorth> it also has the ‘load by cargo’ UI 20:43:44 <_dp_> can't tl be checked with rails/presignals? 20:44:00 <FLHerne> Some kind of draggable-blocks thing would be nice, but wouldn't really fit with the UI style :P 20:44:03 <andythenorth> ha I like the ‘automate’ button on timetables 20:44:05 * andythenorth clicks it 20:44:13 <andythenorth> nah, nothing happened 20:44:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that one's far more useful than it ought to be for being a disgusting hack 20:44:55 <FLHerne> Basically, it dynamically fucks with each vehicle's timetable to keep them a constant distance apart 20:45:06 <FLHerne> Good for buses 20:45:26 <FLHerne> Doesn't work with ships, because timetables don't work for ships for some stupid reason 20:46:14 <FLHerne> Gets problematic if you have congestion, because it only separates vehicles by delaying them, and you can get in a loop where it essentially freezes all the vehicles 20:47:04 <andythenorth> I only tried timetables with ships 20:47:05 <FLHerne> (because vehicles on route A wait for a slot, and delay vehicles on route B, so then the next A gets delayed and every other A gets delayed to compensate, which delays all the Bs...) 20:47:11 <andythenorth> is that why I declared them broken? 20:47:21 <FLHerne> Possibly 20:47:32 <FLHerne> I mean, they're broken for everything else too from a sane perspective 20:47:35 <andythenorth> total no-op as far as I could tell 20:47:36 <FLHerne> But at least they /work/ 20:47:48 <FLHerne> Yeah, ship timetables literally do nothing 20:47:50 <andythenorth> I clicked all the buttons as instructed, ships travel bunched together 20:47:51 <FLHerne> I don't know why 20:47:57 <andythenorth> because crap patches 20:48:31 <FLHerne> I think they're broken in trunk also 20:48:42 <FLHerne> Or featured, possibly 20:48:59 <andythenorth> yes, I tried them in trunk 20:49:05 <FLHerne> Well, I suppose that would also be down to crap patches 20:49:07 <andythenorth> I have been offensive about them ever since 20:49:39 <frosch123> i guess i never used ships with timetables, but i also have never seens a bugreport about them :) 20:49:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try them on RVs instead, don't worry, you can continue to be offensive about them 20:50:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: I assumed EBKC 20:50:26 <Wolf01> Mmm I'm a special kind of stupid... "lets start netflix and watch a tv show while listening to music" 20:50:27 <FLHerne> Hey, where did all the bugs go? 20:50:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I heard you were removing random FS tasks 20:50:53 <andythenorth> I didn’t quite get as far as randomising 20:50:54 <FLHerne> Oh, nvm 20:51:13 <FLHerne> For some reason, my FS bookmark was for some arbitrary search result 20:51:26 <FLHerne> So I only saw 8 tasks, total... 20:52:41 <andythenorth> I didn’t get that far… 20:52:42 <andythenorth> yet 20:53:06 <FLHerne> frosch123: I guess it's a subcategory of https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6006 ? Although IME it works for the other types 20:53:10 <Wolf01> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1125300707 lol 20:53:18 <FLHerne> (not sure about aircraft, I don't use them really) 21:00:12 *** ic111 has quit IRC 21:00:15 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 21:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i bought "deponia" and already i'm hopelessly stuck in the first chapter... 21:03:23 *** mescalito has quit IRC 21:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like i've grown more impatient about being stuck in adventures 21:04:20 <Wolf01> I've finished it with one ending 21:04:28 <Alkel_U3> I haven't managed to get out of the house where it starts yet 21:04:34 <Wolf01> TBH I liked more primordia 21:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: i managed that once i found out i can hold space bar to view "interesting" pieces 21:07:07 <andythenorth> FWIW, there are a couple of timetable bugs here which need repro https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=timetable%3A&project=1 21:07:13 <Wolf01> I tried the "droggeljug" mode, where every dialog is changed with "droggeljug droggeljug droggeljug" 21:07:26 <andythenorth> ic111: ^^ 21:08:51 <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks for the tip, that might get me somwhere 21:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: it took me going to the menu and browsing the tips for that :p 21:10:13 <Wolf01> Could I be able do play a skirmish in halo wars 2 this evening? It's being loading for 5 minutes 21:10:20 <ic111> andythenorth: Yes, IMHO the present timetable system is some sort of a bug... (otherwise I wouldn't spent so much time on that) 21:10:31 <ic111> wouldn´ t have 21:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :) 21:13:47 *** NGC3982 has quit IRC 21:17:24 *** y2000rtc has quit IRC 21:20:19 <andythenorth> such bedtime 21:20:21 <andythenorth> bye 21:20:21 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:22:34 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:30:40 *** ic111 has quit IRC 21:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> one day he finds the bedtime, i'm sure. 21:35:52 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:43:17 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:43:44 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:31:16 *** keoz has quit IRC 22:56:39 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 22:57:48 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 23:03:33 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:33:36 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 23:45:16 <Wolf01> 'night 23:45:19 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:56:51 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC