Log for #openttd on 17th September 2017:
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06:38:32  <Alberth> o/
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07:39:23  <andythenorth> bonsoir
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08:24:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: moin
08:26:59  <Alberth> hi hi
08:27:03  <Alberth> bbl
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09:59:50  <andythenorth> such stuff
10:09:04  <andythenorth> also if train length doesn’t bother you, and you just want to build with least thinking
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11:01:25  <andythenorth> so how do livery over-rides work then?
11:01:59  <frosch123> they are deprecated
11:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the engine providing graphics for the wagons. but you should probably not use them
11:02:23  <andythenorth> can’t see how it meets my case
11:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> shouls instead put the graphics on the wagons and have them check the engine
11:02:45  <andythenorth> train 51 here is a railcar
11:02:46  <frosch123> no idea what you want to do, but there are better ways to achieve the same what livery overrides would do
11:02:54  <andythenorth> I want to match the coach sprite to the railcar
11:03:20  <andythenorth> but eh, I think company colour settings bork that anyway
11:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so in the graphics chain just check the ID of the "parent"
11:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and switch the sprites
11:04:00  <andythenorth> yeah, I can do it in the switch chain no problem
11:04:00  <frosch123> add a switch with PARENT scope and check grfid and vehicle_type_id
11:04:09  * andythenorth thought livery over-rides were the ‘proper’ way
11:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also override the recolouring
11:04:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can? o_O
11:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, there's a callback for recolouring
11:05:19  <andythenorth> I could just provide an unpowered trailer car for the railcar
11:05:30  <andythenorth> or I could just nerf the running cost
11:08:06  <frosch123> colour_mapping: -> switch(PARENT) -> return base_sprite_2cc  + company_colour1 + 16 * company_colour2
11:08:26  <frosch123> that will make the vehicle use the same company colours as the front vehicle
11:09:35  <andythenorth> thanks
11:09:58  <andythenorth> which is better, magic sprites on normal pax car?
11:10:05  <andythenorth> or additional trailer vehicle?
11:10:22  <frosch123> vehicle lengths again? :p
11:10:49  <andythenorth> nah
11:11:11  <andythenorth> 8/8 railcars with 8/8 trailers
11:11:30  <andythenorth> train 51 in the screenshot above
11:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you're doing additional trailer vehicles, you have trouble to make them available at the same time as the lead vehicle
11:11:57  <andythenorth> yes
11:12:19  <andythenorth> there is a simpler solution
11:12:25  <frosch123> ihmo always make the regular wagons adjust their graphics for the rear vehicle
11:12:27  <andythenorth> railcar uses same body as pax coach
11:12:38  <andythenorth> rear vehicle frosch123? o_O
11:13:02  <frosch123> i lack context, i am guessing the problem, maybe i am off :p
11:13:25  <andythenorth> I wondered if you’d had an amusing hax idea :)
11:13:47  <frosch123> i assumed the question was how to show different graphics for the last vehicle
11:13:59  <andythenorth> yes
11:14:04  <andythenorth> also, whether I should :P
11:14:31  <andythenorth> but yes I see, I misread what you said above :)
11:15:00  <frosch123> if you do, the best method imo is to use "position_in_consist_from_end" in the regular wagon
11:15:38  <andythenorth> thanks
11:15:48  <andythenorth> I won lengths btw :P
11:16:06  <frosch123> for how long?
11:16:30  <andythenorth> until next time, of course :)
11:37:25  <andythenorth> dual_headed trains
11:37:27  <andythenorth> evil or not?
11:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> not
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11:55:21  <Alberth> o/
11:58:51  <frosch123> hoi
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12:39:16  <andythenorth> ha someone built a model of my new Horse train already
12:39:43  <andythenorth> train 55 here
12:40:23  <Alberth> it's smokin'  :)
12:41:37  <Alberth> but no need to convert pixels to lego thus
12:42:00  <andythenorth> well it’s nice when people turn game art into models
12:42:12  * andythenorth suspects that _probably_ the Lego one is inspired by RL
12:42:15  <andythenorth> just like the Horse one
12:42:49  <Alberth> would a too boring alternative to consider :)
12:42:56  <andythenorth> not sure what to do next on Horse
12:43:01  <andythenorth> no shortage of work
12:43:12  <andythenorth> probably solve lengths for freight wagons I guess
12:43:15  <Alberth> roll a die
12:43:54  <Alberth> or get less obsessed with lengths :)
12:44:01  <andythenorth> I think it pays off tbh
12:44:33  <Alberth> likely it does, in nuts it all works nicely
12:44:37  <andythenorth> aiming for integer length in ~80% of cases seems to help the set design
12:45:10  <Alberth> more restrictions == less room to mess around :)
12:45:49  <Alberth> but I guess it's one of those things you never notice unless it's not working
12:56:48  <andythenorth> such lengths
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13:06:25  <peter1138> andythenorth, what set is that?
13:06:33  <peter1138> looks pikkaish :p
13:13:28  <andythenorth> peter1138: it’s like UKRS2
13:13:34  <andythenorth> only not drawn so small :P
13:13:40  <andythenorth> Iron Horse
13:16:13  <andythenorth> also if you’re not obsessed by integers, you can just build trains like this
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13:29:37  <peter1138> What's a nice road vehicle set and ship set these days?
13:30:37  <andythenorth> there are no good ship sets
13:30:42  <andythenorth> Hog is ok for RVs
13:30:45  <andythenorth> or eGRVTS of course
13:30:59  <andythenorth> Hog is the only grf I’m not ashamed of tbh
13:32:54  <peter1138> FISH 2 then
13:34:41  <andythenorth> yeah
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13:48:03  <Alberth> fish2 is quite nice, imho
13:49:14  <Alberth> problem with development is that you only look at things that don't work, and forget about all the things that do work :)
13:50:00  <andythenorth> yup
13:50:50  * andythenorth now obsessing about wagon lengths :P
13:51:25  <Alberth> in a difficult way, I might add, just make every vehicle 1 tile, and done :p
13:51:54  <Alberth> might be a bit trouble, even nuts doesn't do that completely :)
13:52:16  <Alberth> sneakily adding wagons to the engines :)
13:52:30  <andythenorth> and some space in front of them, V tells me
13:52:47  <andythenorth> integer lengths is really easy when you can mix up 2 versions of same wagon
13:52:59  <andythenorth> across 2 generations, for example
13:53:16  <andythenorth> works for mail cars
13:53:47  <andythenorth> can’t do that for freight, because I nerf the maximum speed
13:53:53  <andythenorth> so previous generation is too slow :P
13:56:10  <Alberth> yes,
13:57:20  <andythenorth> ha ha :)
13:57:36  <Alberth> I usually only replace engines, if wagons also need replaced, I mostly just build a new train and clone it
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14:02:50  <andythenorth> poor man’s consist templates eh? :)
14:06:00  <andythenorth> 4/8 and 8/8 is easiest way to hit integer lengths with wagons :P
14:06:42  <supermop_home> yeah man
14:07:09  <supermop_home> tanks and stephenson's rocket can be 4
14:07:15  <supermop_home> everything else 8
14:07:29  <supermop_home> maybe an 08 or something can also be 4
14:07:52  <supermop_home> if you really want fancy make your pacifics 8 with a 4/8 tender
14:08:11  <supermop_home> your 20s can be 6+6 for same effect
14:14:28  <andythenorth> supermop: I did :)
14:14:32  <andythenorth> 20s are 6+6
14:14:38  <andythenorth> pacifics are 8+4
14:14:46  <supermop_home> sorted
14:14:57  <andythenorth> supermop:
14:16:01  <supermop_home> ship it
14:17:00  <andythenorth> it’s only – views :P
14:19:08  <andythenorth> should I do some bollocks with cb36, changing wagon speeds to match the date?
14:19:21  <andythenorth> or I could nerf some passenger engine speeds if you attach a freight car
14:19:30  <andythenorth> or I could just let players do what they like :P
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14:39:28  <Alberth> other views are overrated, just always show - view, it's clearly the best :p
14:40:50  <andythenorth> that’s quite close to the truth
14:41:17  <andythenorth> eh, 2 lengths of every wagon type in Iron Horse?
14:41:19  <andythenorth> bad idea?
14:41:52  <andythenorth> Horse has lots of wagons…
14:44:55  <andythenorth> random lengths on construction?
14:45:28  <andythenorth> 2/8 caboose :P
14:55:05  <LordAro> happy to report no (new) warnings with clang5
14:55:09  <LordAro> still got tho ;)
15:05:44  <andythenorth> the future
15:06:18  <Alberth> (uint64)-10000     :O
15:07:44  <Alberth> not convinced forces and power and such should be unsigned, imho
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15:10:55  <Alberth> industry production level doesn't seem to know what it wants:
15:10:55  <Alberth> i->prod_level = min(i->prod_level * 2, (int)PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
15:10:55  <Alberth> i->prod_level = min<uint>(i->prod_level * 2, PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
15:11:22  <Alberth> I wouldn't be opposed to using the "std::" prefix everywhere
15:13:05  <LordAro> i don't doubt there's some issues with that patch somewhere
15:13:24  <LordAro> i added the `using std::min;` declarations in an attempt to minimise the changes
15:13:35  <LordAro> it wouldn't be difficult to add them back
15:13:53  <LordAro> i just tried to keep it as close to what was done previously
15:13:58  <Alberth> min<int64>(UINT16_MAX, co...      :D
15:14:24  <Alberth> yeah, that patch needs very careful checking :)
15:14:46  <Alberth> also, maybe instead of fixing all uses, fix the type of the variable?
15:14:56  <LordAro> mm
15:14:57  <Alberth> probably a tricky problem to decide though
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15:20:17  <Alberth> line 864 looks wrong if (IsRailTT()) max_speed = min<uint16>(max_speed, GetRailTypeInfo(GetRailType(m_old_tile))->max_speed);
15:20:40  <Alberth> rail_speed > 0 is not the same as min
15:27:58  <supermop_home> hmm is there a way to do many random towns, but have it only make small villages
15:29:32  <andythenorth> 2020: The Year We Removed Original Signals
15:29:40  * andythenorth just saying
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15:30:05  <Wolf01> o/
15:30:41  <andythenorth> hai Wolf01
15:30:58  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> ha someone built a model of my new Horse train already <- that thing is not lego anymore :(
15:31:06  <andythenorth> stickers
15:31:26  <Wolf01> Glue
15:31:50  <Wolf01> Maybe cut pieces
15:31:52  <andythenorth> such cheating
15:32:03  <andythenorth> are shapeways parts cheating? o_O
15:32:12  <Wolf01> I consider them cheating
15:32:16  * andythenorth needs some bear coding
15:32:23  <andythenorth> 1. how fast should freight trains go?
15:32:44  <andythenorth> 2. how do I make 3 generations of 4/8 box van look different and interesting?
15:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> materials (wood, metal) and roof shapes (flat, round)?
15:34:04  <Wolf01> The only not cheating part is the sbrick because it's needed on expos or you won't be able to show your moc, as the power function IR has only 4 channels and a lot of mocs use at least 2, some even 6 with a trick
15:36:55  <Alberth> equally fast-ish as pax?  easy to mix them onto a single track
15:37:57  <Alberth> should you ever care to put them together at a single track :p
15:38:04  <Wolf01> BTW, I started building the Saturn V today
15:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> also, do you really need 4/8 wagons? you can balance all trains above 2 tiles with just 8/8 and 6/8
15:40:02  <Alberth> why don't you just round up to integer length, and make sure you don't cross that boundary?
15:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i still think nobody but andy really cares :p
15:41:04  <Alberth> V does too :)
15:41:12  <Wolf01> If I'll ever do a railset I'll make sure to use only prime numbers
15:41:21  <Alberth> :D
15:41:45  <andythenorth> I’m not worried if anyone else cares :)
15:41:56  <andythenorth> if we chose projects by that criteria…ugg :)
15:41:58  <Alberth> :)
15:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> this isn't about the project, this is about a tiny implementation detail
15:42:38  <andythenorth> it has become the project
15:42:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the problem :p
15:43:10  <andythenorth> I think we talk across each other :D
15:43:18  <andythenorth> or you understand me perfectly, but find it daft
15:43:48  <andythenorth> anyway, *informed* people telling me it’s wrong only encourages me
15:43:55  <andythenorth> it’s only jackasses that make me cross
15:44:21  <Alberth> he he :D
15:44:30  <andythenorth> also your point about 8/8 and 6/8 stands Eddi|zuHause
15:44:31  <Alberth> aka no talking you out of it by us :)
15:44:39  <andythenorth> except equally 4/8 and 6/8 works
15:44:54  <andythenorth> problem is, that means two lengths per type
15:44:55  <Alberth> would expect so indeed
15:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but 4/8 is quite tiny
15:45:08  <andythenorth> yes, but that looks nice :)
15:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't want to stop you, but i think you have a really unhealthy obsession there
15:45:46  <andythenorth> I agree :)
15:46:08  <andythenorth> this is current testing
15:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that gap in the steam engine is terrible
15:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> number 69
15:47:34  <andythenorth> yes
15:47:39  <andythenorth> that is easily fixed though ;)
15:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but while the 4/8 wagons in the depot view look cute, they get even tinier in the world view, where the / view dominates over –
15:47:54  <andythenorth> yes, they disappear there
15:48:32  <Alberth> trains get nicer through corners
15:48:58  <andythenorth> what a grumpy forum day :)
15:49:12  <Alberth> borrowed one of V's spaces at train 69, eh?
15:49:41  <supermop_home> 8 hours on the map so far and I am still finding wrong valleys
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15:50:29  * andythenorth should fix train 69
15:50:35  <andythenorth> to reduce the peanut gallery noticing it
15:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: are you sure it's not a fractal where each time you zoom in you get a new level of bumps? :p
15:51:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: consider purchasing short wagons in chunks of 2 or 3?
15:51:38  <andythenorth> maybe
15:51:43  <frosch123> or does that make your length ocd worse?
15:51:58  <andythenorth> it’s probably almost orthogonal to my current problem :)
15:52:06  <andythenorth> “almost"
16:00:06  <andythenorth> I fixed train 69 :P
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16:05:56  <Alberth> \o/
16:12:42  <quiznilo> mornin'
16:20:56  <andythenorth> too many box cars? o_O
16:21:08  <andythenorth> 1860-1990
16:24:02  <Wolf01> ...and where there is flame you find MB
16:24:27  <Wolf01> Adding nothing but a +1 to his post count
16:24:30  <andythenorth> keeps the conversation going
16:24:49  <Wolf01> I would like to report him so bad
16:26:10  <andythenorth> I don’t know why I’m immune to michael
16:26:21  <andythenorth> he seems to irritate some of you a lot
16:26:27  <andythenorth> I find him amusing
16:26:31  <Wolf01> You already got stung
16:26:59  <andythenorth> I talk to michael on forum pm sometimes
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16:50:22  <andythenorth> box van
16:50:29  <andythenorth> newer box van
16:50:36  <andythenorth> dunno if TTD scale can show much there eh
16:51:00  <andythenorth> this is more of a speed limit problem, not a length problem :P
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16:51:14  <andythenorth> 45mph, 60mph, 75mph, 85mph
16:51:23  <andythenorth> each generation needs wagons
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17:41:51  <Wolf01> train in terminal
17:42:25  <andythenorth> awesome title :)
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18:12:53  <Wolf01> I think SYL is mixing up things... he's also sending strange PMs and I don't even know what to reply :/
18:13:31  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how come you chose a station board from my station :P
18:13:51  <Wolf01> Ahaah, I just chose a mid sized image from google
18:14:15  <andythenorth> I don’t remember all station boards btw :)
18:14:20  <andythenorth> it’s the trains that give it away
18:14:39  <andythenorth> SYL is sending strange PMs to multiple people
18:18:28  <Wolf01> BTW too bad that KK had that nasty reaction about NRT, I was totally like to ask him some support for BGT, maybe on the road handling by cities as it looked like one who knows how to work... but heh...
18:19:35  <andythenorth> probably I was being an arse
18:19:36  <andythenorth> dunno
18:20:00  <andythenorth> armchair theorists are annoying
18:22:49  <Wolf01> Maybe we just explained why we got stuck in a wrong way, he picked up really much on "making the 100% perfect patch", which is not what we are going to do, but we are just trying to not put ourselves in a cul-de-sac and getting nowhere with the current draft
18:27:51  <andythenorth> don’t wear clown shoes in public
18:27:58  <andythenorth> NRT has clown shoes on
18:28:07  <andythenorth> w.r.t catenary in towns, and upgrading town roads
18:32:31  <Alberth> Wolf01:  BGT?
18:32:45  <Wolf01> ButGroundTypes
18:32:55  <Alberth> :o new one :)
18:32:57  <andythenorth>
18:33:20  <andythenorth> ach 4/8 box cars :P
18:33:20  <V453000> evening
18:33:23  <andythenorth> lo V
18:33:43  <V453000> back from holidays
18:33:51  <V453000> still no new comments on brix :0
18:33:53  <V453000> iz ded
18:33:56  <Alberth> gey box car too long :p
18:33:58  <V453000> guess I should work on it :D
18:34:00  <andythenorth> iz dead V453000
18:34:03  <Wolf01> I think some things could be addressed later, some other are just plain fuck like catenary distinction between road and tramway, or even having to use all the 15 tramtypes just to change the pavement without having any difference in speed or limitation
18:34:05  <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks for the help :)
18:34:28  <andythenorth> Wolf01: the killer things are ‘upgrading’ (fixes town roads) and ‘catenary is shared’
18:34:28  <Wolf01> And to address the plain fuck ones, we need something like BGT
18:34:40  <andythenorth> the ground types variety is slightly distracting imo
18:36:14  <Alberth> oh, NRT2 thus, seems nice progress in thinking
18:36:15  <V453000> ooh forum drama over grf scale standards
18:36:19  <V453000> too ridiculous to take seriously
18:38:20  <Wolf01> Is that TT scale started with a totally different problem?
18:38:21  <Alberth> andy, can't you make the open car more open, ie holes in the wood part?
18:39:16  <V453000> I think just discussing scale in OpenTTD is something outright ridiculous
18:39:37  <Alberth> variation in blue box cars is nice, not sure that you can actually see it in-game though
18:44:51  <andythenorth> open car needs some work
18:45:01  <andythenorth> not happy with the box cars
18:45:09  <andythenorth> I could just have them look the same like pikka does
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18:48:20  <V453000> ._.
18:49:05  <andythenorth> such sprites
18:49:45  <andythenorth> I could piss around with colours I suppose
18:49:48  <andythenorth> gen 1 could be grey
18:49:51  <andythenorth> or have grey roof
18:49:54  <andythenorth> dunno
18:50:21  <V453000> why does the hopper have good contrast
18:50:22  <Alberth> you don't have a reefer car, do you?
18:50:24  <V453000> and rest of them much less of it
18:58:36  <andythenorth> V453000: is needing redrawn all
18:58:43  <andythenorth> Alberth: there are reefer cars yes
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19:02:10  <V453000> right
19:04:39  <Alberth> hmm, maybe I played with horse too long ago
19:25:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I guess VAAs etc are too late?
19:26:03  <andythenorth> too long
19:27:03  <andythenorth> :)
19:28:36  <FLHerne> They have to get longer at some point, surely?
19:30:00  <andythenorth> yea
19:30:19  <andythenorth> but I specifically want to have 4/8 long in 1960…for reasons :)
19:31:17  <FLHerne> You could have the early ones be planked, and later be plywood
19:31:22  <FLHerne> Not that anyone would notice
19:31:32  <andythenorth> working on it :)
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19:31:40  <andythenorth> drawing planks is tricky at TTD size :)
19:32:04  <FLHerne> Yeah :P
19:32:14  <FLHerne> You could go to 8bppEZ
19:32:31  <FLHerne> Someone was doing that, at 2x scale only
19:33:21  <andythenorth> better
19:34:15  <FLHerne> Well, I guess I can tell them apart
19:37:09  <andythenorth> working on it :)
19:50:38  <andythenorth> bbl
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22:58:59  <Wolf01> 'night
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