Log for #openttd on 22nd September 2017:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:45:24  *** FLHerne has quit IRC
00:51:11  *** chomwitt has quit IRC
00:58:58  *** Speedy has quit IRC
00:59:32  *** glx has quit IRC
01:22:26  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
02:29:59  *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
03:41:04  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
04:38:21  *** Cubey has quit IRC
04:50:56  *** chomwitt has quit IRC
05:12:06  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
05:27:42  *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
06:07:54  *** longrin has joined #openttd
06:27:37  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:27:40  <andythenorth> o/
06:27:43  <andythenorth> V453000: such
06:27:48  <andythenorth> trees
06:34:58  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
07:00:15  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:05:00  *** blocage has joined #openttd
07:13:54  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:17:57  *** blocage has quit IRC
07:24:26  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
07:59:36  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:00:31  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
08:03:48  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
08:03:48  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
08:06:26  *** lastmikoi has quit IRC
08:06:40  *** lastmikoi has joined #openttd
08:08:51  *** tokai has quit IRC
08:44:51  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:57:07  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
09:17:20  *** Defaultti has joined #openttd
09:19:11  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
09:24:46  *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
09:36:22  *** JacobD88 has quit IRC
09:52:59  *** dustinm` has quit IRC
09:56:27  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
09:56:37  <Wolf01> o/
09:56:47  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
09:59:52  *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
10:10:40  <V453000> andythenorth I think I have some infection
10:10:46  <V453000> optimizing render times
10:10:55  <V453000> by overhauling the whole rendering script to do horrible things
10:11:01  <andythenorth> such automation
10:11:06  <V453000> going to save them seconds
10:11:50  <andythenorth> bbl
10:11:50  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
10:22:40  *** Biolunar has quit IRC
10:59:05  *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd
10:59:58  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
11:07:06  *** orudge has quit IRC
11:13:29  *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
11:31:21  *** orudge has joined #openttd
11:37:04  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:55:03  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
11:58:49  *** JacobD88 has quit IRC
12:29:48  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
12:29:48  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
12:29:52  <Alberth> o/
12:32:32  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
12:34:51  <Wolf01> o/
12:57:34  *** gelignite has quit IRC
12:58:02  *** argoneus has quit IRC
12:58:11  *** argoneus has joined #openttd
13:08:40  *** ToBeFree has quit IRC
13:34:33  *** Flygon has quit IRC
13:37:07  <supermop> yo
13:37:15  <Wolf01> o/
13:37:26  <supermop> good morning wolf
13:41:51  *** sim-al2 has quit IRC
13:42:46  *** trendynick has joined #openttd
13:52:18  *** idl0r has quit IRC
14:06:49  <V453000> nice, 5 times faster rendering with new script =D
14:08:05  <supermop> now i need to play a game where i can buy one of every RV so i can check how they look in vehicle list
14:08:24  <V453000> wot
14:08:32  <V453000> just play with vehicles_never_expire on ?
14:09:57  <supermop> yeah
14:10:03  <supermop> still need to buy each one
14:10:20  <supermop> to check how they look in vehicle list vs purchase menu
14:38:38  <supermop> hmm japan set + termite means you get the EMUs and electric locomotives
14:38:50  <supermop> but no diesel locomotives or wagons
14:38:59  <supermop> or DMUs
14:40:29  <supermop> hmm
14:40:55  <supermop> it seems that with termite electrified NG and regular NG are not compatible
14:45:15  <supermop> also this game is just to check RV list sprites, but here I am getting bothered by my EMU options
14:46:48  <andythenorth> supermop: sounds like a termite bug
14:49:29  <supermop> now i have to buy EMUs using only the head unit $$$
14:49:55  <supermop> or could convert this line to shinkansen
14:51:48  <supermop> just pulled all the wires down
15:05:08  <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you run into this saveload issue also?
15:05:32  <Wolf01> Yes
15:06:36  <Wolf01> I can't understand why it happen, all the vehicles after load have 0Kph max speed
15:07:18  <Wolf01> And clearly it crashes with division by 0 when calculating the effects
15:09:03  <Wolf01> The other crashes are new to me
15:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> a callback gone wrong with not-properly-saved data?
15:10:55  <Wolf01> Could be
15:26:35  *** TheMask96 has quit IRC
15:30:00  *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
15:31:56  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I tried with different grf combinations and always crashes, so it's not a grf problem
15:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if it only happens on reload, you might have incorrectly cleared some cache, or failed to reinitialize it
15:39:45  <Wolf01> But why it doesn't happen to andy or frosch?
15:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> heisenbug
15:41:20  <andythenorth> not windows?
15:41:32  <andythenorth> both the reports of it are for windows
15:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> today i spent two hours debugging an issue where the fill levels of tanks were incorrect
15:42:40  <andythenorth> under or over?
15:42:41  <andythenorth> :P
15:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> turned out it was missing some () in the formula for volume
15:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of "l*b1*h1-b2*h2" instead of "l*(b1*h1-b2*h2)"
15:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> with b1/b2/h1/h2 being some complex formulas
15:52:55  <Wolf01> The only thing that changed is the introduction of a constant in saveload
15:53:25  <Wolf01> To give a meaning to the version number used in afterload
15:58:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I used to get mocked for putting parentheses into formulas :P
15:58:41  <andythenorth> instead of committing the operation rules to memory, and parsing them every time I read a line
15:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i told the other guy who was involved with writing the code that the formulas are unnecessarily complex
16:00:51  *** Cubey has joined #openttd
16:08:24  *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:15:14  <Alberth> assign the formulas to temporary variables
16:18:49  *** Progman has joined #openttd
16:19:21  <andythenorth> lambdas
16:23:57  <Wolf01> Mmmmh... mmmh... I have a problem reading the type of a vehicle (road or tram), I get the subtype instead
16:28:51  <supermop> hmm need to remove exhaust pipe switch from 1900 and 1910 ish trucks
16:29:08  <supermop> dont fit on the old cabs
16:35:57  *** orudge` has joined #openttd
16:35:57  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
16:39:34  <Wolf01> Ok, when loading a savegame the roadtype info is broken
16:42:16  <Wolf01> Uhm, no, I don't think that is the case, the default roadtypes have 0 max speed anyway
16:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so the data is reset somewhere and then not refilled with proper values
16:43:26  <Wolf01> No, I think it gets the wrong value for the cached max speed
16:48:10  <__ln__> so... should i buy cheap flights to Los Angeles in january..march?
16:48:42  <supermop> for a 3 month stay?
16:48:53  <supermop> i mean LA is probably fine no matter when you go
16:49:01  <__ln__> no, max 1 week stay, but during those months
16:49:01  <supermop> unless you want to go swimming
16:49:21  <supermop> or if you want to spend time up in mountains
16:49:35  <supermop> how cheap?
16:50:05  <__ln__> 398 €
16:50:15  <supermop> holy shit
16:50:18  <supermop> where from?
16:51:00  <__ln__> from finland, via sweden
16:51:16  <supermop> you are pretty much obligated to go at that price
16:51:22  <Wolf01> Ok, the vcache.cached_max_speed is not restored
16:51:34  <supermop> especially if it means escaping the arctic dark
16:52:27  <__ln__> yeah, obligated was what i felt also last year when i bought finland->new york + washington dc->finland for 355€
16:54:44  <supermop> what airline is this
16:55:24  <supermop> hmm short trailer still looks too long and modern on the old road trains
16:55:36  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
16:57:10  <__ln__> supermop: Scandinavian Airlines,
16:58:41  <supermop> nice
16:58:59  <supermop> well you'll need to find a cheap airbnb, and maybe rent a car
16:59:07  <supermop> but otherwise i'd say do it
17:00:06  <__ln__> i'm seriously considering it indeed
17:01:20  <supermop> im either going to do vietnam or honolulu with my wife's family around then, but i've yet to see good prices
17:01:43  *** TrueBrain_ has joined #openttd
17:01:49  <Wolf01> I can't track the source of the problem, vehicles from vanilla work, vehicles from the same grf worked, no code was changed
17:02:31  *** glx has joined #openttd
17:02:32  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
17:03:37  *** TrueBrain-Bot has quit IRC
17:04:33  <Wolf01> I need frosch here, or someone which can understand where the problem is
17:05:40  *** TrueBrain has quit IRC
17:15:02  *** orudge` has quit IRC
17:15:09  *** orudge` has joined #openttd
17:15:09  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
17:16:20  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:16:30  <Wolf01> Quak
17:16:40  <planetmaker> quok ;)
17:18:53  <frosch123> hoin
17:19:38  <Wolf01> frosch123: Newgrf vehicles don't restore vcache.cached_max_speed like vanilla ones in NRT
17:22:08  *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
17:25:46  *** TrueBrain_ has quit IRC
17:27:45  <frosch123> Wolf01: it is recomputed in vehicle_sl.cpp:402
17:28:38  <Wolf01> Eh, also gcache.track_max_speed is 0
17:30:18  *** longrin has quit IRC
17:30:58  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
17:33:16  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:34:43  <Alberth> o/
17:35:28  <andythenorth> hi
17:37:11  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
17:38:19  <Wolf01> wow
17:48:36  <__ln__> cool
17:52:27  <andythenorth> 1. how to fix FIRS Steeltown?
17:52:42  <V453000> :D
17:52:45  <andythenorth> 2. I need some fast British trains inventing to suit the Horse rules
17:52:51  <V453000> :D
17:52:53  <andythenorth> must be plausible fake
17:52:55  <V453000> :D
17:53:04  <andythenorth> SLUG is not the answer btw
17:54:12  <V453000> shyt
17:56:32  <V453000> andythenorth: 5 times faster rendering times :P
17:56:35  <V453000> iz win
17:56:51  <andythenorth> totally
17:56:52  <andythenorth> always
17:56:55  <andythenorth> go for 10 times next
17:57:04  <V453000> won't be so easy
17:57:12  <V453000> aka not going to happen :P
17:59:17  <andythenorth> maybe Horse schema all wrong
17:59:32  <andythenorth> started from slow steam locos and worked up
17:59:42  <andythenorth> maybe I should start from fastest train and work backwards
18:00:01  <andythenorth> Horse all bollocks again
18:04:13  <V453000> I started wondering if I should do 16/8 so don't worry about bollocks
18:14:11  <V453000> sooo fuck palms?
18:14:42  <V453000> 100% official forum comments agree that they are WRONG
18:15:03  <andythenorth> Alberth killed palms?
18:15:04  <andythenorth> :P
18:15:21  <V453000> well I agree
18:15:46  <V453000> desert cacti don't look like cacti though
18:15:49  <V453000> the fuck yo
18:15:52  <V453000> :D
18:16:38  <frosch123> V453000: the palms look emo
18:16:46  <frosch123> you should emphasise that even more
18:16:56  <frosch123> make it a sad tree
18:17:08  <frosch123> a tree that wishes it would be a slug
18:17:15  <V453000> gay
18:18:34  <andythenorth> V453000 offends 10% of channel, statistically
18:18:42  <V453000> nice
18:27:23  <frosch123> does that assume 100% male?
18:27:40  <V453000> isn't not that far from reality :P
18:28:04  <frosch123> well, most are probably bots and dead bouncers
18:34:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: stats are complicated eh
18:34:14  <andythenorth> varies a lot even in Europe
18:34:57  <andythenorth> UK, more male than female self-identify as LGBT
18:35:12  <andythenorth> other european countries tend to reverse that
18:35:50  *** orudge` has quit IRC
18:35:54  *** orudge` has joined #openttd
18:35:54  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
18:37:17  <andythenorth> hmm 10% comes from
18:43:24  <V453000> sooo spikey cactus pink/green/brown thing is fav?
18:43:37  <V453000> I have 1 more ID to occupy after ditching the purple hanging down plant
18:43:47  <V453000> so one is getting a clone friend :D
18:44:13  <frosch123> do unicorns qualify as spikey?
18:44:27  <frosch123> also, do you have something resembling a durian?
18:46:36  <V453000> you're still on your durian fetish?
18:51:19  <andythenorth> ok Horse is now just one train
18:51:39  <andythenorth> 300mph, 10,000hp, 250t all cargos in 8/8
18:51:43  <andythenorth> winning
18:51:58  <andythenorth> ultimate
18:52:16  <V453000> what have I done
18:52:26  <V453000> btw 10k hp ain't enough for 300mph :P
18:52:48  <andythenorth> some kind of non-linear crap with HP<->speed?
18:53:05  <andythenorth> 3000hp is good for 100mph
18:53:17  <V453000> yes
18:53:31  <V453000> high speeds need fuckloads, especially TE related railtypes
18:53:56  <V453000> I don't know the exact function curve but from observation and experience yes
18:53:59  <V453000> look at nuts is all I can say :)
18:57:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have space to name an engine "nut cracker"?
18:57:33  <andythenorth> maybe
18:57:37  <andythenorth> sounds narrow gauge :P
18:58:30  <V453000> XD
18:58:45  <V453000> hm I don't have any dead horse engines
18:58:59  <frosch123> i remember some zombiehorse
18:59:14  <V453000> yeah nuts has some horse related engines
18:59:23  <V453000> new set doesn't though
18:59:37  <V453000> well new set has about as much as CETS has graphics, but ... :)
18:59:49  <frosch123> so you are almost done?
18:59:54  <V453000> XD
18:59:58  <V453000> n
19:00:02  <frosch123> :)
19:00:33  *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
19:01:12  <V453000> I've reworked the engine table multiple times already and today I even started wondering if they should be 8/8 or 16/8
19:03:45  <V453000> because 16/8 engines do have a lot of room for loooking badass
19:03:58  <V453000> like the superstrong and doombringer classes in nuts
19:04:49  <V453000> hm!'
19:04:53  <V453000> shit.
19:04:59  <andythenorth> meh
19:05:05  <V453000> 16/8 would mean double the amount of engine sprites
19:05:09  <frosch123> as long as there spawn multiple smoke effects, long engines are fine
19:05:10  <V453000> which is kind of alright
19:05:13  <andythenorth> @calc 125-15
19:05:13  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 110
19:05:18  <andythenorth> @calc 110-15
19:05:18  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 95
19:05:23  <andythenorth> Horse all fail
19:05:26  <V453000> XD
19:05:40  <andythenorth> non-regular speed increases per generation
19:05:41  <andythenorth> such wrong
19:05:45  <frosch123> i never used the super strong engines in nuts, multiple strong were nicer
19:06:04  <frosch123> though i guess that broke when you went for 16/8 everything
19:06:08  <andythenorth> must fux
19:06:09  <andythenorth> fix *
19:06:14  <V453000> haha frosch123
19:07:19  <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
19:07:26  <frosch123> i know that titanic only had fake chimneys, but i think trains should just have as many
19:07:30  <V453000> my plan doesn't take into account dual headed trains
19:07:32  <V453000> G_G
19:08:07  <V453000> maybe dual heading only express trains makes sense?
19:08:19  * andythenorth thinking same
19:08:26  <V453000> shit that helps a lot
19:08:31  <frosch123> well, i still need an excuse to allow articulated dual-headed engines
19:08:36  * andythenorth putting in some dual-headed engines
19:08:41  <V453000> I don't need that frosch123 :P
19:08:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: “not needed"
19:09:00  <V453000> oh yeah plan doesn't work
19:09:09  <andythenorth> also, for v2 Horse, I have deleted all articulation, so I can use dual-head :P
19:09:09  <V453000> FJSDIGFUCK
19:09:18  <andythenorth> V453000: just make road vehicle set
19:09:19  <andythenorth> easier
19:09:22  <V453000> N
19:09:23  <andythenorth> less roster bollocks
19:09:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought dual-headed is for cabage and cucumber cars
19:09:35  <V453000> is same bollocks with less  tools so it can't be made more awesome
19:09:52  <andythenorth> cucumber? o_O
19:10:04  * andythenorth fixed numbers
19:10:21  <andythenorth> mph: 65, 80, 95, 110, 125, 140
19:10:27  <V453000> chameleon trains already work as articulated and dual headed
19:10:33  <andythenorth> and maybe some kind of super-speed crap at 180mph
19:10:35  <andythenorth> meh
19:10:37  <V453000> it just tells the wagons to camouflage as an engine
19:10:41  <V453000> easy
19:11:04  <V453000> I guess I will just do the same thing
19:12:41  <V453000> unless
19:12:47  <V453000> shit I'm overcomplicating it all
19:12:58  <V453000> k plan ruined
19:13:35  <V453000> eh ok got solution I guess
19:14:19  <V453000> nvm ruined
19:15:02  <frosch123> anything special in czech rep today?
19:15:13  <V453000> idk? :D
19:15:17  <V453000> I don't read the news
19:15:22  <frosch123> why was there a thursday facts?
19:15:30  <V453000> what
19:15:37  <frosch123> or is the date wrong :p
19:15:51  <V453000> yeah just wrong date because kovarex doesn't even read callendar
19:17:24  <supermop> andythenorth: old road trains: short wagons, or don't exist at all
19:19:25  <andythenorth> short
19:19:34  <andythenorth> all 4/8
19:19:40  <andythenorth> 16/8 total
19:19:56  <andythenorth> eh
19:20:06  <andythenorth> 125mph -> 186mph big stupid jump
19:20:08  <andythenorth> but realism
19:20:10  <andythenorth> also players want
19:20:26  <andythenorth> how can I do it with a new railtype?
19:20:31  * andythenorth totally fails to understand railtypes
19:20:53  <andythenorth> All Railtypes Must Be Compatible
19:20:57  <andythenorth> due to conversion
19:21:00  <andythenorth> but how?
19:21:23  * andythenorth totally confused
19:21:35  <supermop>
19:21:38  *** trendynick has quit IRC
19:21:47  <supermop> 5 and 6 are 'old' trucks
19:21:58  <supermop> with the 'short' trailers
19:22:07  <andythenorth> shorter
19:22:10  <andythenorth> and wheels at front
19:22:40  <supermop> the oldest rigid trucks have a shorter body, so i can composite new tiny trailers from those
19:24:09  <V453000> ok tropic done tomorrow
19:24:11  <V453000> toyland might be fast
19:24:14  <V453000> just 9 types
19:24:18  <V453000> will go full retard mode
19:24:22  <supermop> im making dollies for the road train p-menu sprites
19:24:36  <supermop> maybe i can be arsed to add to the actual trucks
19:25:25  <supermop>
19:25:39  <supermop> 7 is a rigid truck with short body
19:25:46  <supermop> can use those
19:26:59  <frosch123> wait what? you can have terminus stations in f?
19:27:42  <V453000> what the shit frosch123 ?
19:27:52  <V453000> "of course" ? :D
19:28:01  <frosch123> is that just my ottd mindset that trains can't reverse? :p
19:28:34  <V453000> in openttd trains reverse? :0
19:28:36  * V453000 is lost
19:30:43  <andythenorth> nobody knows railtypes :|
19:33:00  <V453000> can I read which vehID is behind a wagon?
19:33:07  <V453000> so that it can adjust sprites based on it?
19:33:27  <V453000> that should be doable, right?
19:33:39  <Wolf01> I need a backup plan for this evening
19:33:47  <frosch123> V453000: yes
19:34:05  <V453000> knew it! :D thanks
19:34:09  <frosch123> it needs your favorite var[] magic though :)
19:34:13  <V453000> I'm going to do horrible thing with it
19:34:16  <V453000> yeah I thought so
19:34:26  <V453000> I'll just force myself to learn it
19:34:42  <V453000> might be less of an obstacle now with some scripting experience
19:36:03  <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, you can have terminus stations in F, you only need to make trains doubleheaded, or you can drive trains manually but going backwards is slow
19:36:28  <V453000> you can have octopus station if you drive manually XD
19:36:29  <frosch123> i knew that i can drive backwards manually
19:36:36  <frosch123> i just did not get the dual-headed thing
19:37:03  <V453000> I'm just piling hacks on top of hacks and my plan is now saved again :D
19:37:06  <andythenorth> V453000: I just deleted all the next-vehicle var stuff in Horse, so you can have mine
19:37:10  <andythenorth> it’s spare now
19:37:21  <V453000> :D
19:40:48  <andythenorth> how can I implement high speed railtype?
19:41:42  <andythenorth> is there a way to make it compatible with RAIL / ELRL, but keep RAIL / ELRL trains off it?
19:44:15  <frosch123> what?
19:44:29  <frosch123> what is compatible to what?
19:44:36  <V453000> do steamers really need tenders in my set?
19:45:03  <supermop> andythenorth: huh
19:45:06  <V453000> kind of do
19:45:25  <Wolf01> He doesn't want steam, diesel, slow electric trains travel on high speed
19:45:26  <V453000> ok 24/8
19:45:34  <frosch123> currently i like using tank wagons to transport 500° water from reator to outposts
19:45:53  <frosch123> ie.e. you can replace the tender with a tank wagon
19:46:07  <andythenorth> what Wolf01 said
19:46:08  <supermop> andythenorth: but you do want fast trains to go on Rail?
19:46:21  <andythenorth> I don’t understand how to make it work
19:46:27  <andythenorth> railtypes all have to be compatible
19:46:38  <andythenorth> due to convert and auto-replace
19:46:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: but hight speed can travel on RAIL?
19:47:04  <andythenorth> how else can you prevent stuck trains when player drags convert over whole map?
19:47:26  <frosch123> who would do that? :p
19:47:31  <andythenorth> V453000
19:47:34  <frosch123> are you targeting stupid players?
19:47:39  <andythenorth> ^^
19:47:40  <frosch123> or competitive ones?
19:47:54  <V453000> just don't prevent it?
19:47:55  <andythenorth> dunno, I’m totally confused about it :P
19:47:58  <V453000> fuck they broke it?
19:48:04  <supermop> andythenorth: also what about steam trains getting stuck if you make everything HSR
19:48:11  <V453000> a solution is providing universal railtype so you can convert whole map to it and unstop all trains
19:48:24  <V453000> I think that usually solves anything
19:48:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: if people replace all tracks at once, they should use tracks with date-dependant graphics
19:48:36  <V453000> admittedly I don't do that often
19:48:44  <V453000> hm, 32/8 engines?
19:48:54  <andythenorth> yes
19:48:56  <frosch123> V453000: don't do csd set
19:48:59  <andythenorth> with cargo capacity V453000
19:49:03  <V453000> they do that shit?
19:49:18  <frosch123> csd has some 5 tile articulated things
19:49:26  <andythenorth> so Horse needs to include universal railtype too? :|
19:49:26  <V453000> haha
19:49:28  <V453000> worry not
19:49:29  <frosch123> which represent some very specific train setup
19:49:32  <andythenorth> but what is point of railtypes then
19:49:34  <V453000> I'll probably fit it into 16/8
19:49:41  <V453000> but drawing out a long badass steamer is just great
19:49:41  <andythenorth> V453000: 24/8 is good
19:49:58  <V453000> no andythenorth 24/8 is fucking trash, you should know better
19:50:01  <V453000> gg
19:50:04  <V453000> victory
19:50:26  <frosch123> <- V453000: all three of them as single things
19:51:10  <V453000> well I am since forever saying that csd set is bullcrap
19:51:11  <frosch123> they essentially removed wagons, you purchase the whole train at once
19:51:29  <V453000> don't worry I'm not going to do anything stupid like that
19:51:30  <frosch123> maybe andy should do that :)
19:51:42  <V453000> the long part will always be only engine and all engines will be the same length
19:51:53  <andythenorth> V453000: this one isn’t even fake
19:52:00  <V453000> I'm not making NUTS2 but I learned things I won't just throw away :P
19:52:08  <andythenorth> ^ 24/8
19:52:18  <V453000> not that great
19:52:23  <V453000> it doesn't even look as a unit properly
19:52:27  <V453000> seems too much like 3
19:53:07  <V453000> OH DAMN
19:53:08  <andythenorth> yeah, but RL is never as good as faked
19:53:09  <V453000> this is going to work
19:53:11  <V453000> YES
19:53:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘purchase the whole train at once’ o_O
19:53:30  <andythenorth> works great for trams
19:53:40  <andythenorth> ~all Hog trams same tile length
19:55:15  <andythenorth> V453000: 40/8
19:55:30  <V453000> that's the shit andy
19:55:40  <V453000> T H E
19:55:53  <V453000> that's just awesome
19:56:00  <V453000> now make it 16/8
19:56:18  <V453000> guess I have to make vehicles so slim that you will have to zoom in to x4 to see them properly ;P
19:56:45  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:56:47  <V453000> nah this thing is so long it smells of compensation
19:57:06  <frosch123> narrow gauge?
19:57:26  <V453000> no, normal gauge but just made smaller
19:57:26  <andythenorth> ah stuff like
19:57:30  <V453000> basically making tiles longer
19:58:02  <V453000> andythenorth: that's what autoreplace and upgrade trains button in depot is for?
19:58:07  <andythenorth> how is railtype upgrading supposed to work?
19:58:08  <V453000> yeah you can't do it from the map but...
19:58:10  * andythenorth never does it
19:58:37  <andythenorth> I can only understand railtypes that are 100% different (except for electrified / not types)
19:59:08  <andythenorth> big puzzles
19:59:52  <andythenorth> solution will be found
20:00:11  <Wolf01> andythenorth: the solution is to give orders to slow train so they won't use the fast tracks
20:00:42  <andythenorth> but how? o_O
20:00:47  <andythenorth> waypoints?
20:00:48  <Wolf01> Waypoints
20:00:55  <andythenorth> not programmable signals?
20:00:58  <Wolf01> I use them a lot in TF
20:01:05  <andythenorth> railtypes can’t have a min. speed?
20:01:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: doesn't jgrpp have route restrictions?
20:01:16  <andythenorth> maybe, I found some magic signals
20:01:29  <andythenorth> didn’t understand them much, UI was odd
20:03:04  <andythenorth> what is problem?
20:03:22  <andythenorth> problem is slow railtype -> fast railtype?
20:03:38  <andythenorth> eh, not, no speed limits used
20:03:52  <Wolf01> Problem is: compatibility works x <-> y
20:03:54  <andythenorth> problem is player mass-converts track, all old trains stuck
20:04:01  <andythenorth> also problem is broken auto-replace
20:04:14  <andythenorth> and no consist management
20:04:23  <andythenorth> consist management solves all known problems
20:04:32  <andythenorth> except for the new ones it will create :P
20:09:53  <Wolf01> Try to fix NRT
20:11:18  <andythenorth> was the ‘ char broken in original TTD?
20:11:36  <andythenorth> for e.g. "’T.I.M’ (Electric)”
20:13:07  * andythenorth looking at original trains for inspiration 
20:14:18  <V453000> that's how far he's gotten
20:14:58  <andythenorth> basically it was just solved in 1994
20:15:03  <andythenorth> just needs better graphics
20:15:34  <V453000> 1994 graphics are still best
20:15:49  <andythenorth> also how do I autoreplace AsiaStar to monorail?
20:15:51  * andythenorth confused
20:15:54  <V453000> and vanilla vehicles give no variety really
20:15:55  <V453000> you don't
20:16:02  <V453000> that's why grfs like universal rail exist
20:16:14  <andythenorth> universal rail is stupidest thing ever
20:16:20  <andythenorth> why not just have ‘one railtype'
20:16:30  <V453000> feel of big progression step
20:16:32  <V453000> is awesome
20:16:50  <V453000> even with the universal purr in nuts, having monorail and maglev is great
20:16:52  * andythenorth irritated with whole business
20:16:57  <V453000> gives you the feeling like it's something different
20:17:07  <andythenorth> completely unclear goals
20:17:10  <V453000> not to mention that maglev actually does work differently due to no T.E. bullshit
20:17:19  <andythenorth> hmm
20:17:36  <andythenorth> what is goal again?
20:17:44  <andythenorth> draw pixels?
20:17:53  <V453000> idk what is your goal :D
20:18:03  <andythenorth> fuck knows
20:18:08  * andythenorth totally lost
20:18:09  <V453000> my goal is to make the best gameplay train set which builds on what I know from nuts
20:18:13  <Wolf01> Upgrading from rail to monorail to maglev is stupid, just start with maglev
20:18:15  <andythenorth> players asked for faster in Horse
20:18:58  <V453000> Wolf01: yeah but only because it's for such short period and because the monorail vehicles are worthless
20:19:06  <V453000> if it had decent stuff it would be perfectly fine
20:19:15  <andythenorth>
20:19:18  <V453000> in TT I guess it was still good because no maglev
20:20:11  <Wolf01> andythenorth: put a logic train with 9999999.99HP and make everyone happy
20:20:24  <andythenorth> already proposed
20:21:03  <andythenorth> meh
20:21:11  <andythenorth> very hard to make things you will never use
20:21:16  <andythenorth> improper amounts of not-caring
20:23:06  <V453000> I have some engines in nuts which I used just a few times
20:23:23  <V453000> not many though :D
20:23:35  <V453000> oh yeah the monorail MEOW class I used really like twice
20:23:48  <V453000> .... would explain why they don't even have wagons for all cargoes done properly XD
20:24:25  *** gelignite has quit IRC
20:25:07  <V453000> hm
20:25:22  <V453000> scrolling through nuts, the new train set will be glorious, but nuts will always have a place :)
20:25:38  <V453000> it's got something to scroll through the long list of useful engines
20:26:09  <V453000> I'm starting to spew trash
20:26:11  <V453000> gnight :D
20:26:32  <andythenorth> bye V453000
20:26:50  * andythenorth needs Eddi to explain the problem
20:26:56  <andythenorth> usually solves things
20:27:16  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
20:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what problem?
20:55:36  <Wolf01> You should figure out
20:56:40  *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
21:05:36  *** Speedy` has joined #openttd
21:05:46  *** Speedy` is now known as Speedy
21:07:10  <andythenorth> problem is high speed rail
21:09:50  <andythenorth> problem is boring :P
21:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so the problem is that you just don't want to do it?
21:10:39  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:12:19  <supermop> does horse need it?
21:12:32  <supermop> what roster are you thinking for?
21:13:06  <supermop> or rather, whats the problem in a stray pacer running along HS2 if user error leads it there
21:14:24  <andythenorth> I just don’t see the point of it
21:14:40  <andythenorth> but I don’t want a 125mph -> 180mph speed jump
21:14:54  <andythenorth> without some railtype change
21:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean high speed rail should be separated from the rest of the network?
21:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> HS1/Shinkansen/Maglev/...?
21:16:18  <andythenorth> I think you should have to build routes for it
21:16:22  <andythenorth> not just auto-replace
21:16:30  <andythenorth> but it has to be compatible
21:16:31  <andythenorth> so eh
21:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the need to build new rails is usually about curve speed
21:19:08  <supermop> if it has to be separate, it is not compatible
21:19:37  <supermop> if you find dedicated HSR boring, then don't bother with it?
21:19:52  <supermop> does IH really have any now?
21:20:23  <andythenorth> no
21:20:31  <supermop> does it need it?
21:21:33  <supermop> in a 'japan' roster, high speed is interesting because it is a new, non-compatible network, completely different in kind and gauge, built from scratch
21:21:56  <supermop> in a UK roster, its really just 'the same track but better'
21:21:59  <andythenorth> how does that solve the convert bug?
21:22:08  <andythenorth> or the autoreplace problem?
21:22:09  <supermop> what is the bug?
21:22:19  <andythenorth> stuck trains
21:22:30  <supermop> what is the problem?
21:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a bug, that's a user error
21:22:50  *** orudge has quit IRC
21:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> like crashing trains from removing signals
21:23:06  <supermop> if you want to force user to build a new route, then they should build new routes
21:23:08  <FLHerne> It should just be impossible to convert tracks to an incompatible type :P
21:23:15  <supermop> not convert and auto replace
21:23:36  <FLHerne> Not an error, just ignore it, so you can do mass-conversions of other types by area
21:23:43  <supermop> if you want user to incrementally upgrade, then they can convert and auto replace
21:23:50  <supermop> neither is really a problem
21:23:58  <supermop> you just can't do it both ways
21:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you can ultimately not force your playstyle on the players
21:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone will bring their own spin to it
21:24:44  <supermop> because you are saying " all trains must be red" and also " trains can be blue"
21:25:35  <andythenorth> I don’t want to force playstyle
21:25:39  <andythenorth> but game is broken
21:25:48  <supermop> why?
21:26:00  <andythenorth> stuck trains
21:26:04  <andythenorth> it’s even in the wiki
21:26:05  <supermop> you can't upgrade a rail line to monorail in TTO
21:26:21  <supermop> trains can get stuck  by missing wires
21:26:21  <andythenorth>
21:26:29  <supermop> wrong way signals
21:26:32  <andythenorth> "Extreme care must be exercised when upgrading ordinary rail to electrified rail as it is very difficult to spot small pieces of non-electrified rail that you may have missed (especially since track with a train on it will not be upgraded)."
21:26:39  <supermop> missing piece of track
21:26:46  <supermop> deadlocked junctions
21:27:27  <supermop> ok but you said hsr should be new routes
21:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sentence seems like 10 years outdated
21:27:29  * andythenorth wonders why Horse 1 doesn’t have this problem
21:27:49  <andythenorth> supermop: if it’s new routes, then can’t auto-replace
21:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> we allowed conversion of rails to electric when train is on them ages ago
21:27:59  <supermop> is it 'new right of way' or is it 'same track but better'
21:28:18  <supermop> andythenorth: i don't see the problem in that sentence
21:28:18  <andythenorth> dunno
21:28:27  <andythenorth> problem is unmeetable goals
21:28:51  <andythenorth> also
21:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think your "goals" are both too fluid to pin down and too contradictory to reconcile
21:29:30  <supermop> ok put it this way - what is the reason to forbid a slow standard gauge train on a fast standard gauge track
21:29:31  <andythenorth> they are paradoxical afaict
21:29:35  <andythenorth> or oxymoronic
21:29:57  <andythenorth> supermop: none
21:30:00  <supermop> there is a reason, but it's not clear that you want it,
21:30:07  <andythenorth> so why have the extra railtype?
21:30:17  <supermop> reason being to force players to build a new network type
21:30:18  <andythenorth> it adds nothing, just makes railtype menu longer
21:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> realism/variety/maintenance costs/...
21:30:31  <supermop> andythenorth: pay more $ for more speed
21:30:37  <andythenorth> hmm
21:31:01  <andythenorth> and breaking autoreplace
21:31:06  <andythenorth> and leaving stuck trains
21:31:11  <andythenorth> meh :)
21:31:57  <supermop> if you are just going to drag convert rail tool over whole map i dont think you are going to care about other features of the grf
21:32:15  <andythenorth>
21:32:39  <andythenorth>
21:34:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so, anyone got any suggestion for the least interesting election in recent history?
21:34:39  <andythenorth> who wins?
21:34:42  <supermop> andythenorth:
21:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all of them
21:35:01  <supermop> here is a slow vehicle that somehow manages to drive on a fast rail
21:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and at the same time none of them
21:35:32  <andythenorth> supermop: agreed, but the railtypes in Horse have no speed limits
21:35:44  <andythenorth> the speed is in the trains
21:36:00  <andythenorth> and if the trains have to be cross-compatible, why bother with the new railtype?
21:36:00  <supermop> then there is no reason for a separate HSR railtype
21:36:06  <andythenorth> ok
21:36:11  <andythenorth> this was my confusion
21:36:21  <supermop> think of it less as a maglev
21:36:27  <supermop> and more like an HST
21:36:30  <andythenorth> so no fast trains in Horse
21:36:49  <supermop> ECML is just regular rail, happens to be pretty straight
21:37:16  <supermop> so a faster regular train can drive faster on it than on a curvy track
21:37:19  <andythenorth> also not very fast
21:37:29  <andythenorth> realism is intervening
21:37:42  <andythenorth> UK trains don’t go above 125mph, except on HS1
21:38:18  <supermop> yeah but from a horse point of view, HS1 is just like the ECML, but maybe straighter and flatter
21:38:48  <andythenorth> so what’s the conclusion?
21:38:50  <supermop> ballast, wire tension, rail welds dont show up in termite
21:38:52  <andythenorth> 199mph trains or not?
21:38:59  <supermop> sure why not
21:39:17  <andythenorth> seems like a huge jump, 125mph -> 199mph
21:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> what are the reasons against adding a fast train (without new railtype)?
21:39:24  <supermop> in TTO the asia star runs fine on ELRL so long as you give it room to accelerate
21:39:29  <andythenorth> just the progression jump
21:39:36  <andythenorth> sticks out as weird
21:39:49  <andythenorth> most generations gain 15mph
21:39:50  <supermop> progression can be annoying
21:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 199/125
21:39:54  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.592
21:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> 60% boost?
21:40:09  <andythenorth> then suddenly 74mph jump
21:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what's that boost % for the other generations?
21:40:29  <supermop> once your network is dense, its probably not worth reworking everything for 15mph
21:40:38  <andythenorth> @calc 125/110
21:40:38  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.13636363636
21:40:43  <andythenorth> @calc 110/95
21:40:44  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.15789473684
21:40:51  <andythenorth> @calc 95/80
21:40:51  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.1875
21:41:04  <supermop> also UK trains could do 100mph in the 30s, and that top speed held for decades
21:41:10  <supermop> not a big problem
21:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(199/125)
21:41:20  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.26174482365
21:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so you're essentially missing a generation inbetween
21:41:41  <andythenorth> logically yes
21:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then it should be fine
21:41:48  <supermop> HST is faster bc its gets to 125mph faster, and routing lets it stay there, not because of the 25 more mph
21:42:29  <andythenorth> so how fast for gen 6 (2020) ?
21:42:39  <andythenorth> gen 5 will be 125mph
21:42:42  <supermop> how fast do trains go now
21:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.25
21:42:55  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 156.25
21:42:55  <andythenorth> RL? 125mph / 186mph
21:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.25**2
21:43:00  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 195.3125
21:43:07  <andythenorth> upgrades are coming on stream for 140mph / 199mph
21:43:18  <supermop> idk uk trains were supposed to go 150mph in the 80s
21:43:24  <andythenorth> they were
21:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so 125, 155 and 195 would be logical steps
21:43:35  <andythenorth> but the money wasn’t there
21:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> each 25% faster than the one before
21:43:40  <andythenorth> and now the paths wouldn’t be there
21:43:52  <andythenorth> 140mph train paths are a PITA, braking distances etc
21:44:03  <supermop> yeah
21:44:05  <andythenorth> and any preceeding trains have to get over the network without delay
21:44:08  <supermop> that's your new route
21:44:29  <supermop> its not the $$$ track, its just a line free of slower traffic, if you want it to be
21:44:30  <andythenorth> nah, I can’t see how new routes using types can ever work in OpenTTD
21:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.6
21:44:34  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 200
21:44:45  <supermop> thats what im saying
21:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 155*1.6
21:44:47  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 248
21:44:54  <andythenorth> you mean just don’t route slow trains on it?
21:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 195*1.6
21:44:57  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 312
21:45:03  <supermop> new and old routes are both RAIL
21:45:26  <supermop> just if your old rail cant fit a train running 200mph on it, you build a new one
21:45:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 125, 155, 195 is remarkably close to RL :P
21:45:55  <andythenorth> ok so is gen 6 140mph, or 199mph?
21:46:18  <andythenorth> horse 1 tops out at 155mph, I’m not sure ‘slower’ in v2 is going to be acceptable
21:46:22  <supermop> the shinkansen being SG, flat, and straight was just a bonus - the point of the project was the literal translation ' new trunk line'
21:46:33  <supermop> because the tokaido trunk line was full
21:46:48  <supermop> the Chuo Maglev is kind of the same
21:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, those km/h numbers are also pretty close to the german progression from the BR103 (200km/h, 1970s), ICE1 (280km/h, 1990s) and ICE3 (330km/h, 2010s)
21:47:08  <supermop> 500kmh is nice, but really the shinkansen is kind of full
21:47:37  <supermop> so if you need to build a whole new line again, might as well make it maglev
21:48:07  <supermop> in a uk-ish situation, just stick to SG rail
21:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maglev in germany failed, for mostly political reasons
21:48:47  <Wolf01> I'll sleepflix, ping me if required :P
21:48:55  <supermop> in japan its not 'competing' with anything
21:49:10  <supermop> because its being built by the operator of the line it will compete with
21:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that was never the problem
21:49:53  <supermop> if DB built the transrapid between two cities because the conventional rail between them was too full, maybe it would have a better shot?
21:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the transrapid basically faced 3 problems: 1) it's very expensive, 2) all the NIMBYs, 3) regional politicians wanting in-between stops and reroutings, watering down all the benefits it could have had
21:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause> specifically the planned Berlin-Hamburg line failed on 2+3, and the planned munich airport line failed on 1
21:51:43  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: chuo shinkanse has the 'benefit' of cutting through less populated areas
21:51:46  *** orudge has joined #openttd
21:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the berlin-hamburg line would have run through mostly empty territory as well
21:52:13  <supermop> so it can stop at every city on the way, and still have fewer stops than the tokaido shinkansen
21:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but still, there are politicians ruling those empty areas
21:52:48  <supermop> i guess in japan JR is king
21:52:53  <supermop> and just gets what it wants
21:53:25  <supermop> rather Tokyo and Osaka are powerful enough to ignore prefectures in between
21:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with Berlin-Hamburg was the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the least densely populated of all the german states. they demanded that in exchange for allowing the route through their state, they must add a stop in their capital of Schwerin
21:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> which isn't on the direct path, making the route longer, and there's really no demand for that either, as it's not a very large city
21:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not even the largest of the state itself
21:56:30  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that empty territory still likely had farms
21:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly forest and lakes :p
21:56:58  <supermop> yeah, federal system like here
21:57:02  <andythenorth> supermop: nasty compromise. gen 6 at 160mph? :P
21:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and a huge exodus of people in the past 25 years
21:57:30  <supermop> why amtrak has to stop in every tiny town it passes
21:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, nobody lives there anymore except at the coast line
21:58:21  <supermop> in japan, prefectures aren't really in a position to 'allow' or forbid a line through them
21:58:55  <supermop> ok brb
21:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the other problem that line faced was environmentalists
22:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> because in a countryside that's mostly forest, you're not allowed to cut down even a single tree
22:05:07  *** tokai has joined #openttd
22:05:07  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:12:17  *** tokai|noir has quit IRC
22:12:47  *** Stimrol has quit IRC
22:15:26  <andythenorth> also bed
22:15:26  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:16:22  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
22:31:38  *** Progman has quit IRC
23:27:45  *** orudge` has quit IRC
23:27:48  *** orudge` has joined #openttd
23:27:48  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
23:34:19  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
23:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> huh? i got spam. in chinese...

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk