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00:48:50 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:55:21 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 01:22:09 *** orudge` has quit IRC 01:22:13 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 01:22:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 01:38:54 *** glx has quit IRC 02:19:16 <supermop_home> https://imgur.com/a/HUsTU 02:19:30 <supermop_home> should the older steam trucks pull fewer trailers? 03:04:37 *** Lejving has quit IRC 03:20:40 *** orudge` has quit IRC 03:20:45 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 03:20:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 04:41:41 *** Cubey has quit IRC 05:59:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 06:20:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:21:51 <andythenorth> moin 06:31:33 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:03:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:03:38 *** orudge` has quit IRC 07:03:41 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 07:03:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 07:36:28 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 07:51:26 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 08:01:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:07:00 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 08:19:38 *** Phoenix has joined #openttd 08:22:38 *** roidal has joined #openttd 08:23:22 *** synchris has joined #openttd 08:35:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:32:58 <andythenorth> V453000: horse is sick again 09:33:04 <andythenorth> such predictable progression 09:51:46 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 10:03:32 *** Phoenix has left #openttd 10:03:58 *** Ram-Z has quit IRC 10:04:35 *** Ram-Z has joined #openttd 10:21:24 *** orudge` has quit IRC 10:21:27 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 10:21:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 10:29:49 <V453000> XD 10:33:03 <andythenorth> engine ‘Growler’ is replaced by upgraded growler 2 10:33:16 <andythenorth> what shall I call it? 10:33:18 <andythenorth> Super Growler? 10:33:21 <andythenorth> Snarler? 10:33:25 <andythenorth> Go Growler? 10:33:30 <andythenorth> Growler 2? 10:35:50 <V453000> does that matter right now? :) 10:36:13 <andythenorth> yeah, names are MOST IMPORTANT 10:36:17 <andythenorth> funny thing 10:36:22 <andythenorth> real-life name for this train 10:36:24 <andythenorth> guess what? 10:36:40 <V453000> rewlorg 10:36:51 <andythenorth> SLUG 10:36:52 <V453000> relworg 10:36:58 <V453000> :D wat 10:38:22 <andythenorth> iz 10:38:32 <andythenorth> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/41565002.jpg 10:39:16 <V453000> rite 10:40:15 <V453000> no new forum posts, project must be dead 10:41:25 <V453000> k finish last tropic plant, go 10:42:02 <andythenorth> iz dead 10:46:29 <V453000> I'll do toyland super fast I think 10:46:44 <V453000> is it too much if trees look like literal shit? 10:46:56 <V453000> bananas hates just porn and military right? 10:48:49 <andythenorth> poo emoji is valid socially 10:51:15 <andythenorth> Super Slug then? 10:51:18 <andythenorth> then Horse has Slug 10:51:20 <andythenorth> winning 10:51:21 <andythenorth> most valid 10:52:15 <V453000> yeah now even personally face-animated shit emoji 10:52:27 <V453000> people looking like shit in real time 10:54:13 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:54:23 <Wolf01> Moin 10:55:18 <andythenorth> most horse train names start with letter 's' 10:55:19 <andythenorth> why? 10:55:46 <V453000> shit 10:55:49 <V453000> is fish 10:58:06 <V453000> hm nuts names are pretty well spread 10:58:13 <V453000> not discriminating letters 10:58:21 <V453000> -> iz perfect set 11:00:19 <andythenorth> horse 2 11:00:22 <andythenorth> will be better 11:00:27 <andythenorth> competition 11:02:40 <V453000> ! 11:05:51 *** orudge` has quit IRC 11:05:55 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 11:05:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 11:22:45 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 11:32:37 <andythenorth> Slug it is then 11:32:39 <andythenorth> and it’s ID 1000 11:32:42 <andythenorth> so special 11:40:24 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:57:55 * andythenorth wonders if supermop is awake 12:01:41 <Wolf01> http://store.steampowered.com/app/573060/LOGistICAL/ mmh 12:02:38 *** orudge` has quit IRC 12:02:42 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 12:02:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 12:08:37 <Wolf01> argoneus, Alkel_U3: since you have stellaris and it's discounted on steam, it is worth the purchase? 12:26:17 *** Laedek has quit IRC 12:29:26 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 12:30:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 12:31:28 <supermop_home> ugh so last night I was kept awake thinking about special liveries to draw for buses 12:32:55 <supermop_home> andythenorth: https://imgur.com/a/HUsTU 12:33:03 <supermop_home> old timey road trains - too long? 12:33:49 <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: I haven't played it yet but I've been told by many that it's pretty good 12:34:55 <Alkel_U3> though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-) 12:37:31 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 12:37:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 12:37:37 <Alberth> o/ 12:42:27 <andythenorth> supermop_home: looks about right 12:42:48 <andythenorth> tractor unit could use a bit of work, needs to look more grunty 12:42:53 <andythenorth> but also older 12:43:06 <andythenorth> I’d snick the cab back 1px 12:43:08 <supermop_home> seems wrong for the steam tractor to pull same amount as petrol and diesel truck 12:43:15 <supermop_home> hm 12:43:15 <andythenorth> is it same speed? 12:43:17 <andythenorth> or slower? 12:43:18 <supermop_home> no 12:43:26 <supermop_home> tractor is 1870-ish 12:43:31 <supermop_home> and quite slow 12:43:39 <andythenorth> slower, same capacity is fine 12:43:58 <supermop_home> steam truck is 1900 ish, black truck is 1910 or 15 12:44:42 <supermop_home> maybe it was 1870, 1890, 1910, 1930? 12:45:31 <supermop_home> with the rigid trucks, the first petrol truck is weaker and hauls less than the steam truck, but is cheaper and faster 12:45:51 <supermop_home> then the following diesel trucks are all stronger, faster, etc 12:46:26 <supermop_home> road train loses the small and fast vs slow and large split because they are all large 12:48:32 <Wolf01> <Alkel_U3> though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-) <- yeah, that's why I would like to wait until they end releasing the DLCs, but the digital anniversary edition is tempting 12:49:12 <Alkel_U3> They still sell separate DLCs for Europa Universalis IV if I'm not mistaken 12:49:32 <Alkel_U3> or is there a broad package already? 12:49:36 *** Lejving has joined #openttd 12:51:42 <Wolf01> The digital anniversary comes with all the released DLCs, EUIV has the "collection" package which comes with everything and with 58% discount is at 117€ 12:53:28 <Alkel_U3> That is some price. I'd rather buy a beer keg. 12:54:07 <andythenorth> supermop_home: first generation sometimes lacks a clear pattern for evolution eh 12:56:16 <supermop_home> well the petrol tractor will have similar power to the petrol truck. if player wants to force it up hills with three trailers that is their choice 12:57:27 *** cHawk has quit IRC 12:58:32 <supermop_home> also ive found when playing with mountainous TAI villages and ViV GS, could use a late game tiny bus 13:00:40 <argoneus> Wolf01: stellaris is great 13:00:48 <argoneus> but you either need the major dlc or play with someone who has them 13:00:59 <argoneus> utopia > synthetic dawn > leviathan in order of importance 13:01:01 <argoneus> the rest is whatever 13:02:20 <Wolf01> What is the gameplay? Like endless space or more like homeworld? 13:02:29 <argoneus> I haven't played either wew 13:02:35 <argoneus> it's realtime 13:02:40 <argoneus> you have a planet that you develop 13:02:47 <argoneus> and you can explore other planets and send stuff there 13:02:51 <argoneus> I'd compare it to 13:02:51 <argoneus> hmm 13:02:54 <argoneus> civ without turns? 13:03:02 <argoneus> oh 13:03:05 <argoneus> sins of a solar empire maybe 13:03:16 <argoneus> so homeworld-ish I guess 13:03:19 <Wolf01> Oh, ok 13:10:58 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:11:06 <andythenorth> such http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8633/horse_2.png 13:11:10 <Wolf01> Quak 13:11:15 <andythenorth> roster nearly done eh 13:11:19 <andythenorth> just need some stupid fast trains now 13:11:39 <andythenorth> fastest train there is 125mph, needs a gen 6 at 140mph or 165mph 13:11:56 <supermop_home> locomotive or EMU>? 13:12:16 <frosch123> hoi 13:12:28 <frosch123> finally an exciting mail to info@ 13:12:44 <andythenorth> :o 13:12:56 <andythenorth> supermop_home: EMU definitely, or bi-mode 13:13:03 <andythenorth> loco, maybe, we’d have to invent it 13:13:15 <supermop_home> put pointy end on the cargo sprinter 13:13:16 <andythenorth> EMU could be class 800 or pendolino or so 13:13:32 <supermop_home> replace the container with a passenger coach 13:13:33 <Wolf01> <frosch123> finally an exciting mail to info@ <- a cease and desist? 13:14:35 <frosch123> no, compile farm activity 13:15:25 * andythenorth bbl 13:16:03 *** orudge` has quit IRC 13:16:07 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 13:16:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 13:26:28 <Arveen> is there a option to make the ottd window non-resizable ? 13:26:55 <Wolf01> Fullscreen 13:27:03 <Arveen> while beeing windowed 13:28:20 <Wolf01> I think not. What is the problem with resizing the window? 13:29:39 <Arveen> I want to stream it and want to avoid accidently resizes 13:30:02 <Arveen> so it's always in fitting ratio 13:43:12 <frosch123> is the horse roster a representation of andy's mind? the engines start with R names and slowly transition into V names 13:43:34 <Alberth> :) 13:44:05 <Alberth> doesn't seem likely that andy moves to 32bpp :p 13:46:20 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 13:46:50 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 13:47:15 *** orudge` has quit IRC 13:47:19 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 13:47:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 14:04:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: quite plausible 14:05:38 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd 14:08:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: railtype in depot, TMWFTLB? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4410 14:08:50 * andythenorth has engines with variable power by railtype 14:12:51 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:13:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: when do you build trains in a depot? 14:13:34 <frosch123> it fails for all advanced use cases which you are dreaming of :) like autoreplace, consist replace, ... 14:13:45 <frosch123> everything that builds trains without a specific depot 14:13:56 <andythenorth> yup ok 14:14:26 <andythenorth> so cb23? 14:14:50 <andythenorth> even that might be TMWFTLB 14:18:31 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I should figure out how to play minecraft split screen on pc 14:21:33 *** orudge` has quit IRC 14:21:40 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 14:21:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 14:29:56 *** trendynick has joined #openttd 14:31:54 <Wolf01> I don't think the pc supports the splitscreen mode even if there are all the settings :( 14:52:31 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 15:07:44 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 15:38:49 *** trendynick has quit IRC 16:19:23 *** supermop_ has joined #openttd 16:25:51 *** supermop has quit IRC 16:36:01 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 16:39:21 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:04:45 *** ARtzja has joined #openttd 17:07:31 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:07:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:07:57 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 17:11:20 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 17:18:04 *** ARtzja has quit IRC 17:27:21 *** ARtzja has joined #openttd 17:45:53 *** Alberth has left #openttd 17:50:13 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:52:41 <Wolf01> I think I found the "will of go outside", now I need to find the "will of remain outside" 17:52:44 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 18:01:21 *** ARtzja has quit IRC 18:08:23 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing good ever happened outside 18:55:27 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 18:55:59 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 18:57:14 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:57:19 <andythenorth> V453000: Horse all fucked again 18:57:20 <andythenorth> gg 18:59:13 <V453000> XD wtf 18:59:45 <V453000> honestly lately I am realizing that making plans is all great and stuff, but to a point 18:59:55 <V453000> like, I have a very solid plan with all details 19:00:10 <V453000> but it's likely that the details are going to change anyway when I start making graphics 19:00:16 <V453000> so I stop with planning for now 19:00:25 <V453000> I have the concept, vehicles 16/8, wagons 8/8 19:00:35 <V453000> now just make graphics and adapt on the fly 19:00:41 <V453000> maybe you can consider doing something similar 19:00:47 <V453000> if you feel like drawing 2020 engine, well, just do it :) 19:00:49 <V453000> if not, meh 19:02:38 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 19:03:33 *** orudge` has quit IRC 19:03:37 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 19:03:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 19:04:04 <V453000> I thought I will fuck with toyland fast and easy 19:04:18 <V453000> trying to make all trees look like the plastic balls in kids playing courts 19:04:29 <V453000> shit failed :D 19:04:32 <V453000> need to do something more proper 19:06:03 <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8634/trees-toyland-00.png 19:06:56 <V453000> iz bad 19:07:00 <andythenorth> V453000: do brio trees 19:07:20 <andythenorth> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/cc/fb/eaccfb302b691e60d5eda923c4a0a2f9.jpg 19:07:41 <andythenorth> also https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91OUXyufxyL._SL1500_.jpg 19:07:56 <V453000> well that's basically how brix trees look in general :D 19:07:56 <V453000> no 19:07:59 <andythenorth> or such https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91OUXyufxyL._SL1500_.jpg 19:08:04 <V453000> I'm thinknig mushrooms atm 19:08:06 <andythenorth> oops bad paste http://mummythatsme.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/IMG_1356a.jpg 19:08:27 <andythenorth> http://www.mollieandfred.co.uk/images/gisela-graham-wooden-toadstool-solitaire-game-p3666-5321_zoom.jpg 19:09:27 <frosch123> just rename the climate to australia, use the regular brix temperte sprites, and put them upside down 19:09:58 * andythenorth has length problems :P 19:10:18 <frosch123> don't worry, diameter is more important 19:10:25 <andythenorth> apparently 19:10:31 <frosch123> (i think i already said that the other day) 19:10:33 <andythenorth> why are wagon speed limits? 19:10:44 <andythenorth> why don’t I cb36 the engine speed instead? 19:11:24 <V453000> I was actually considering doing trees which look like tree roots underground 19:11:30 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 19:11:32 <V453000> basically upside down but looking from the bottom 19:12:29 <frosch123> https://www.abaobab.com/baobab/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/baobab-fruit-antioxidant-baomix-pulp-leaves-coffee-7.jpg <- those? 19:13:02 <frosch123> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Br9ChOFSL._SY450_.jpg <- most weird tree in general 19:13:40 <frosch123> https://philipp1112.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/rimg0038-1.jpg <- also, mix in some giraffes 19:13:41 <andythenorth> serious trees 19:15:17 <V453000> yeah what the fuck it's trees 19:15:25 <V453000> I'm thinking more about mushrooms with eyes 19:15:29 <V453000> possibly mouths 19:15:46 <frosch123> http://www.fotocommunity.de/photo/affenbrotbaum-kunstwerk-der-natur-rettl/29926816 <- trees also have mouths 19:16:34 <frosch123> http://www.sagen.at/fotos/data/545/Gartenzwerg_Pilzhaus.jpg <- but sure, you can also go the mushroom route :p 19:17:18 <frosch123> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613w2QIYN5L._SL1082_.jpg <- ... 19:17:55 <frosch123> damn... "gartenzwerg pilz" definitely gives some disturbing images 19:20:40 <V453000> XD 19:25:09 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 19:25:15 <V453000> might need to think about this for a bit 19:25:20 * andythenorth also 19:25:24 <V453000> but shrooms, snails and other random shit might work 19:26:03 <andythenorth> why I haz 6/8 small engine? 19:26:06 <andythenorth> is problems 19:27:07 <V453000> that's fine just add a 2/8 tail :P 19:27:42 <andythenorth> such ideas 19:28:13 <andythenorth> or more lengths of wagons 19:28:29 <andythenorth> but multiple lengths + shit ton of extra generations to keep V453000 happy 19:28:34 <andythenorth> = lot of wagons :| 19:33:47 <V453000> XD wtf. 19:37:02 <andythenorth> seriously considering wagons where speed limit changes at some year 19:37:07 <andythenorth> instead of spamming buy menu 19:37:30 <andythenorth> main thing is graphics don’t need to change, so why new vehicle? 19:38:30 <V453000> I really don't see the point of wagon speed limit gameplay wise 19:38:39 <frosch123> why limit speed at all? just limit engine power? 19:38:48 <V453000> just makes all design of engines invalid because power and TE suddenly only matters 19:39:03 <V453000> well poorly accelerating trains are a hell to play with imo 19:39:13 <V453000> like Lev4 19:40:58 <andythenorth> if speed isn’t limited, just choose fastest engine 19:41:06 <andythenorth> it’s a one-engine newgrf 19:41:14 <andythenorth> like NARS 2 and so 19:41:30 <andythenorth> I don’t mind what players do btw, they can turn limits off 19:42:07 * andythenorth seriously considers dropping wagon speed limits 19:42:38 <andythenorth> but then also…why have wagon generations? 19:42:42 <andythenorth> always unlimited 19:42:53 <andythenorth> so no need for upgrades 19:43:52 <andythenorth> hmm 19:45:51 <V453000> quite the opposite 19:46:03 <andythenorth> explains? 19:46:12 <V453000> if you limit the speed, all trains will be running at, say, 100kmh ... so it only matters how fast it gets to that speed 19:46:14 <V453000> which is just power 19:46:29 <andythenorth> nuts is just one wagon, right? 19:46:32 <V453000> while if you have all variables of power, TE, and speed, you are making a decision between all of them 19:46:33 <V453000> yes 19:46:35 * andythenorth only saw one last time played nuts 19:46:38 <andythenorth> ok 19:46:42 <V453000> more wagons is just a visual thing really 19:46:51 <V453000> unless they differ in loading speed and capacity drastically 19:46:59 <andythenorth> is eye candy 19:47:07 <andythenorth> always use fastest engine 19:47:11 <andythenorth> just add moar if needed 19:47:11 <V453000> eye candy can be 1 wagon with random switches all over the place 19:47:35 <V453000> well if the fastest engine is weak enough in power, saturated network will always do better with stronger trains 19:48:09 <andythenorth> always use AsiaStar for coal 19:48:56 <V453000> yes because SH40 is too slow/not strong enough in comparison 19:49:14 <V453000> because vanilla is just basically 1 linear progression without classes 19:51:16 <andythenorth> V453000: in nuts, why not always use The Ultimate? 19:51:19 <andythenorth> it’s pretty ultimate 19:51:50 <andythenorth> seems boss for coal 19:53:02 <V453000> in that case, wagon connect rules 19:53:06 <V453000> can only haul express wagons 19:53:08 <andythenorth> oh that’s wtf :) 19:53:12 <V453000> which isn't that great of a feature 19:53:24 <andythenorth> also you’re changing wagon capacity with engine? 19:53:24 <V453000> in my defence it's quite common in other grfs 19:53:29 <V453000> but doesn't mean it's great 19:53:30 <andythenorth> you went full on wtf 19:53:32 <andythenorth> ok 19:53:34 <V453000> yeah probably 19:53:44 <V453000> there's a shitload of switches all over the place 19:53:47 <andythenorth> I considered that to force express / freight split instead of wagon speeds 19:53:59 <andythenorth> but I ruled it out without trying it 19:54:02 <andythenorth> is good or bad? 19:54:20 <andythenorth> be quite easy “this engine can’t haul freight" 19:54:21 <V453000> you mean changing wagon stats or connection rules? 19:54:25 <andythenorth> connection rules 19:54:32 <V453000> I'm not sure honestly 19:54:41 <V453000> I think if you don't over do it like in nuts, it's really fine 19:54:52 <V453000> like simple express/freight separation is totally ok 19:55:16 <andythenorth> I can’t turn it off? 19:55:17 <V453000> but in nuts you have monorail wagons can't fit to those engines, those different monorail wagons can't fit to the other engines, etc 19:55:19 <V453000> no 19:55:21 <andythenorth> hmm 19:55:25 <V453000> only with parameter 19:55:25 <andythenorth> NEED PARAMETER 19:55:48 <V453000> but if you do it reasonably, it's not the end of the world 19:55:55 <V453000> honestly it works perfectly fine in URKS 19:55:57 <V453000> UKRS 19:56:07 <V453000> you have eurostar or how it's called there, 289km/h, pax only 19:56:08 <V453000> is fine 19:56:22 <andythenorth> so how do I have totally boss coal train in NUTS? 19:56:42 <V453000> the question I have been asking myself recently is why to actually have this difference, it's basically realism and awesomeness in terms of realism 19:56:49 <V453000> you don't have a totally boss train in NUTS 19:56:56 <V453000> some are faster but have less capacity (maglev) 19:57:15 <V453000> some are slower but more capacity and amazing acceleration (rail strong/superstrong) 19:57:24 <andythenorth> maglec is quite boss 19:57:25 <V453000> it took many months to balance it out 19:57:28 <andythenorth> maglev * 19:57:40 <V453000> maglev is boss but 22 cargo per 8/8 is low 19:57:48 <andythenorth> oh yeah 19:57:49 <andythenorth> hmm ok 19:58:17 <andythenorth> helps, but doesn’t solve my problem 19:58:20 <V453000> capacity is a good way to balance things out 19:58:24 <andythenorth> I assumed you just didn’t enforce classes 19:58:27 <andythenorth> but you do 19:58:30 <andythenorth> maybe we’re wrong 19:58:33 <V453000> I understand because you are keeping them on the same railtype 19:58:34 <andythenorth> both 19:58:48 <V453000> but you can look at just rail vehicles in nuts 19:58:56 <V453000> there is superstrong, strong, medium and fast 19:58:58 <V453000> all with same wagons 19:59:28 <V453000> I can show you 4 networks which will be different, and each of them will only have 1 answer to best train 19:59:34 <V453000> and each of these answers will be different 20:00:37 <V453000> superstrong will rule with long trains, strong will rule with ultra short trains, medium will be best somewhere in the middle/universally for generally unspecific networks, and fast will be good only if your network doesn't have dense traffic, no short curves, not many uphills(especially merging junctions on uphill), etc 20:00:55 <V453000> you don't need to balance "all of the engines are equal on a straight track" 20:01:11 <V453000> that would mean the player chooses based on random taste, which isn't that interesting 20:01:48 <V453000> the other classes in nuts add to this, not necessarily be competitive 20:02:18 <V453000> of course, only a handful of players know the differences, I even dare to say that nobody knows about the uses for every single class in nuts 20:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> why would they? everyone has their favourite style of network 20:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so naturally he will favour the engines that excell in that network 20:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and sorta ignore the rest 20:03:58 <V453000> most expert players actually like to build differently every game 20:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming that they actually care) 20:04:03 <V453000> just because of fun from variety 20:04:13 <V453000> with nuts or without it 20:04:24 <V453000> doing the same over and over again for many years isn't very exciting 20:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, "most" is prbably exaggerated 20:04:51 <V453000> depends how you define expert :P 20:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and they probably change *something*, not necessarily *everything* 20:05:06 <V453000> obviously 20:05:14 <V453000> but it's enough to justify any other train class 20:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are probably loads of players who would be considered "expert" by people totally outside your "target audience" 20:09:28 <V453000> I'm not saying everyone has to use all various possible network types all the time? 20:10:07 <V453000> I was just trying to say that even the people who build with large variety don't really know the maximum possible utilization of all nuts trains, although several of them are very close 20:10:37 <andythenorth> 1860-2020 is a terrible idea in a grf 20:10:44 * andythenorth should stop 20:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with that? 20:11:02 <V453000> of course especially if someone builds in a way where he isn't trying to build a big network, his criteria for choosing a train will differ to an extent where any balancing is pointless 20:11:17 <andythenorth> balancing is pointless :) 20:11:22 <andythenorth> but it has to be done 20:11:39 <V453000> to an extent, as long as all vehicles have some use, it's enough :) 20:12:03 <andythenorth> Hog balances trucks, trams, HAUL 20:12:08 <andythenorth> seems ok 20:12:17 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 20:12:25 <andythenorth> but then for RVs, fast express can’t just haul coal eh? 20:12:36 <andythenorth> trains are mess 20:13:00 <andythenorth> bus can go super fast, but no coal 20:13:05 <V453000> I think wagon connecting rules for express trains are totally fine 20:13:10 <andythenorth> pax tram super-high-density, but no coal 20:13:37 <V453000> I'm not going to use them in my train set, but that's just because of other full wtf mode 20:14:03 <andythenorth> I think result of connection rules is same as wagon speed limit 20:14:09 <andythenorth> it’s just implemented differently 20:14:23 <V453000> not really 20:14:32 <andythenorth> still no 300mph coal train 20:14:35 <andythenorth> ultimately 20:14:39 <V453000> it's just a forced split into 2 classes but you still work with all the variables a train can have 20:14:56 <V453000> yeah but in the selection of coal trains, the max speed matters more 20:15:31 <V453000> with wagon speed limit it's super binary, max speed of wagons reached Y/N, sort by highest power and TE 20:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in really ancient DBSets, there was no wagon speed limits and wagon attachment rules, making people do ICE trains with coal 20:16:33 <V453000> a "nice" part is when you have different speed limits for different cargoes, it can mean you can afford to use a slower train with some of them , but then there is the whole issue with different speed trains on the same network which is just bad 20:16:48 <andythenorth> I like to have 2 speeds on network 20:16:50 <andythenorth> fast and slow 20:16:57 <V453000> yes that's why I think using basic connection rules is good for express engines like ICE 20:16:58 <andythenorth> messes up network, but in manageable way 20:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in "current" DBset you have forced attachment rules, and optional wagonspeedlimits 20:17:20 <andythenorth> wagon speed limits are always optional :) 20:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 20:17:40 <andythenorth> attachment rules are maybe boring, not sure 20:17:42 <V453000> are they? I think canadian grf was doing some weird shit which didn't make it that optional 20:17:55 <andythenorth> canadian grf died :P 20:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i think it modified the engine speed instead 20:18:14 <V453000> attachment rules can become a tangled mess of unintuitive horde of error messages, if you do it in the huge extent like NUTS does 20:18:20 <V453000> yes I think so Eddi 20:18:49 <V453000> well, I gtfo 20:18:54 <V453000> thinking about trees to be done 20:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there are ways to trick the attachment rules 20:19:38 <V453000> yes if the leading engine doesn't define them 20:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> because they only ask A whether it allows attaching B, not B whether it allows attaching to A 20:19:50 * andythenorth considers options 20:19:56 <andythenorth> - attachment rules 20:20:02 <andythenorth> - mess with engine speed depending on cargo 20:20:04 <V453000> yes it's what the "invisible leading engine" grf was causing 20:20:08 <andythenorth> - variable wagon speed limits 20:20:14 <V453000> if you just make it the leading engine, you can connect anything 20:20:38 <andythenorth> - enforce speed by requiring caboose, speed limit only applies to caboose, cabeese get faster per generation 20:20:58 <andythenorth> - ?? 20:21:06 <andythenorth> - lots and lots of wagons in buy menu 20:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how do you justify a caboose in modern trains? 20:21:14 <andythenorth> yeah no 20:21:20 <andythenorth> you don’t 20:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really solve a 2020 balancing problem with 1890 technology 20:21:49 <andythenorth> problem is that 3 generations of engine in IH 1 has grown to 6 20:21:52 <V453000> how do you justify a slug in modern brains :) 20:22:07 <andythenorth> Slug = true for IH 2 20:22:12 <andythenorth> now correct 20:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you mean like http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Brain_Slug ? 20:23:40 <V453000> he 20:23:48 <V453000> could be 20:23:52 <V453000> anyway, gnight 20:29:57 <andythenorth> bye v 20:39:31 <Wolf01> Went outside for 2 hours, is something... 20:50:56 <andythenorth> if wagon speed limits change over time, I can use just 2 generations plausible 20:51:02 <andythenorth> plausibly * 20:51:40 <andythenorth> but how to explain it in buy menu? 20:53:27 <frosch123> you can only change properties based on purchase date 20:53:30 <frosch123> not on current date 20:53:40 <frosch123> some sets use "last servicing date" though 20:54:08 <Wolf01> Which makes sense 20:54:38 <andythenorth> purchase date has an autoreplace problem :) 20:54:40 <frosch123> if you change it based on purchase date, it's essentially the same as a new wagon while removing the old one from the list at the same time 20:55:06 <andythenorth> also it’s weird for the network if a bunch of trains get faster on an arbitrary date 20:56:41 <frosch123> well, tie it to the engine then 20:56:57 <frosch123> give engines different speed limits depending on the cargo they are hauling 20:57:30 <andythenorth> worth testing I think 20:57:33 <frosch123> engine technology defined wagon technology, no need to separate/mix them 20:57:54 <andythenorth> dropping wagon speed limits would be useful 21:00:18 * andythenorth should sleep on it eh :) 21:02:12 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:13:56 <Wolf01> So I'm back at the same old point... what could I do now? Sleepflix? 21:14:03 *** roidal has quit IRC 21:26:05 *** orudge` has quit IRC 21:26:08 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 21:26:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 21:33:44 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:47:23 <TrueBrain> any of you any decent knowledge of MSVC? And why OpenTTD for example targets .NET Framework 2.0? And what .NET has to do with a C++ project? :D 21:49:41 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd 21:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that does seem weird 21:52:35 <TrueBrain> msvcrt100.dll, as example, the runtime library, contains .NET code ..... 21:52:37 <TrueBrain> LOL 21:52:44 <TrueBrain> failwhale coming by 21:52:45 <TrueBrain> stay clear 21:52:48 <TrueBrain> Microsoft at work :D 21:54:03 <Wolf01> The .NET libraries are automatically referenced, I removed the references from the OTTD project and replaced with the OTTD libraries alone and it compiled fine 21:54:29 <TrueBrain> you cannot disable the TargetFrameworkVersion :( 21:55:16 <TrueBrain> not sure what happens if I force it to 4.6.1 (VS2017) 21:55:30 <TrueBrain> VS always has been a mistery to me :D 21:56:20 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:56:26 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:00:00 <TrueBrain> well, it linked after install the TargetingPack for 4.0 .. 22:00:47 <TrueBrain> but now settings_gen.exe failed to execute ... lol 22:03:13 <TrueBrain> this Docker for Windows is such an unstable mess and collection of brokenness ... 22:05:11 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 22:05:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 22:07:33 <TrueBrain> copy/pasting inside a Docker only gives a partial paste result :D 22:07:35 <TrueBrain> briliant! :D 22:12:01 *** tokai has quit IRC 22:26:26 <TrueBrain> lol; settings_gen.exe is not allowed to rename a file .. but copy+delete does work :D 22:26:28 <TrueBrain> hahaha 22:35:12 <TrueBrain> lol; I had to copy the folder in order for it to work .. it only fails on a mounted folder ... owh well, OpenTTD compiles under Windows with MSVC2017 in Docker :D 22:35:15 <TrueBrain> baby-steps 22:38:39 <TrueBrain> it fails on something LordAro did :D 22:38:59 <TrueBrain> adding a VS2017 flag, but not adding the project to switch a flag to make that not error :D 22:41:24 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 22:41:54 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 22:42:12 <LordAro> TrueBrain: uwot 22:42:58 <TrueBrain> (fallthrough, the project needs to be told it needs c++11 :D) 22:43:07 <TrueBrain> but there are no VS2017 project files 22:43:16 <TrueBrain> so I guess it was a local thingy :D 22:43:53 <TrueBrain> euh, even c++latest 22:44:59 <TrueBrain> weird, as fallthrough is part of c++11 .. but it needs c++latest on VS2017 :D 22:46:06 <TrueBrain> how do I tell this via msbuild .. hmmmmmmm 22:50:10 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 22:51:49 <TrueBrain> well, why would they document how to do that .... 22:54:49 <TrueBrain> ah, LanguageStandard 22:57:53 <TrueBrain> seems I really need project files to get this working :D 23:02:21 <TrueBrain> had to downgrade till before that patch to get something less error-ish :D 23:02:39 <TrueBrain> welcome to the undocumented world of Microsoft!! *facepalm* 23:07:36 <TrueBrain> yippie, it now really is only missing openttd-useful :D :D 23:08:07 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-CF/tree/windows :) 23:08:10 <TrueBrain> *does a happy dance* 23:14:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:14:05 *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC 23:16:22 *** techmagus has quit IRC 23:17:09 *** techmagus has joined #openttd 23:20:30 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 23:22:51 *** orudge` has quit IRC 23:22:55 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 23:22:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 23:30:02 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:40:06 *** orudge` has quit IRC 23:45:14 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 23:45:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 23:59:28 *** synchris has quit IRC