Log for #openttd on 14th October 2017:
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06:21:39  <Alberth> o/
06:25:21  <andythenorth> moin
06:36:33  <andythenorth>
06:36:57  <andythenorth> another case where generations look the same :P
06:37:56  <andythenorth> also
06:38:21  <andythenorth> edibles tank cars and refrigerated cars are hauled by pax engines
06:38:38  <andythenorth> which will look odd with train 24
06:43:36  <Alberth> it does, just like the default set with farms
06:43:57  <Alberth> any particular reason the blue line must be horizontal?
06:44:26  <Alberth> although I also had the thought, "why do we have these tankers at all?"
06:45:18  <Alberth> but euhm, I don't expect food to be delivered by the gallon :p
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06:46:34  <Alberth> have less generations?
06:47:20  <Alberth> it's not a rule to be completely symmetrical everywhere
06:47:49  <Alberth> hmm, place top entry holes off-center? ie not symmetrical
06:48:24  <Alberth> or don't have them at all in some case?
06:51:56  <andythenorth> I wondered about inverting white and CC for some generations
06:54:19  <Alberth> vertical CC, several lines is possible
06:54:44  <Alberth> although some form of diagonal would break the pattern more
06:55:10  <Alberth> but that may cause trouble with your other wagons
06:56:46  <andythenorth> RL has some guides
06:56:49  <andythenorth>
06:57:10  <andythenorth>
06:57:18  <andythenorth>
06:57:24  <andythenorth>
07:03:41  <Alberth> latter has some nice CC a the bottom :)
07:30:10  <andythenorth>
07:30:25  <andythenorth> kind of works
07:30:30  <andythenorth> not convinced though
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07:45:09  <Alberth> yeah, looks like it's partly filled :p
07:45:27  <Alberth> make some vertical white in it?
07:48:47  <andythenorth> I think I need to keep the colour scheme, and vary the silhouette
07:49:07  <andythenorth> firs gen now smaller
07:50:55  <andythenorth> first *
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08:04:53  <Alberth> quite subtle, but nice :)
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08:23:55  <andythenorth> hmm
08:25:41  <andythenorth> yo V453000
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09:10:47  <Alberth> o/
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09:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> which tank do horses prefer to eat, then, if the tanks are edible by horses?
09:31:16  <Alberth> filled tanks, of course
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10:20:25  <Wolf01> Moin
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10:32:06  <Wolf01> o/
10:33:15  <andythenorth> lo
10:36:52  * andythenorth has design problem
10:39:01  <Eddi|zuHause> singular?
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11:03:11  <andythenorth> likely multiple related
11:03:14  <andythenorth> treatable as one
11:03:30  <andythenorth> logical progression means freight trains at 140mph by 202
11:03:33  <andythenorth> 2020 *
11:06:59  <Wolf01> Why not?
11:08:27  <andythenorth> 1. looks daft, freight wagons with high speed pax engines
11:08:39  <andythenorth> 2. road vehicles are 80mph for same game date
11:09:05  <andythenorth> 3. reality
11:10:21  <Wolf01> So you want to stick to reality but still don't want much realism?
11:14:19  <andythenorth> let’s say it’s about a 50% connection
11:14:57  <andythenorth> IRL freight train speeds are 75mph, or rarely 80-90mph
11:15:11  <andythenorth> 110mph is ok in game
11:15:16  <andythenorth> 140…not
11:16:32  <Wolf01> Make multistorey intermodal cars
11:17:26  <Wolf01> So speed become relative, and you double the capacity instead
11:19:39  <andythenorth> I considered higher capacity instead of higher speed
11:21:30  <andythenorth> I could use the train air drag property :P
11:21:59  <andythenorth> it’s a non-trivial factor for freight train speeds
11:22:14  * andythenorth biab
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12:00:02  <Wolf01> Quak
12:00:09  <frosch123> moo
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12:12:23  <andythenorth> so
12:22:09  <Wolf01> Lemons
12:22:48  <Samu> hi
12:24:07  <Samu> i'm testing the results of my patch, and it's... impressive
12:24:25  <Wolf01> You filed for bankruptcy in 2 years?
12:24:53  <Samu> remember airport infrastructure costs?
12:25:23  <andythenorth> I hate designing top-end of a roster
12:25:25  <andythenorth> it’s so boring
12:25:59  <Samu> there is no luxury of having trains waiting to load now, running costs don't allow it now
12:26:06  <Wolf01> Try a rooster instead
12:27:18  <Samu> have to compare these profits with trucks
12:27:27  <andythenorth> stupid trains
12:27:29  <andythenorth> are stupid
12:28:00  <Samu> i kinda like it that I have to care about the number of wagons on a train
12:28:43  <Samu> you wouldn't make excess number of trucks if they have to wait to load, so trains now are getting the same treatment
12:31:08  <andythenorth> why do refrigerated cars and edibles tank cars go at pax train speeds?
12:32:09  <Wolf01> Express delivery?
12:32:54  <andythenorth> yair
12:33:01  <andythenorth> also it’s just a bit of variety eh
12:35:35  <andythenorth> and you can run food into towns on same tracks as pax/mail
12:38:40  <andythenorth> dunno, it all seems a bit ‘blah’
12:39:04  <andythenorth> it’s the same in the dragon games
12:39:12  <Wolf01> You don't run freight in cities by train, you know
12:39:23  <andythenorth> the first 10 or so dragon classes are really interesting
12:39:34  <andythenorth> when you collect the 51st class of dragon
12:39:38  <andythenorth> 'whatever'
12:40:50  * andythenorth wonders if it can be solved by pretending game starts in 2020
12:43:03  <Wolf01> lol
12:45:11  <Wolf01> Menawhile, I finished the renders
12:45:19  <Wolf01> *meanwhile too
12:46:11  <andythenorth> problem is fricking high speed pax trains
12:46:14  <andythenorth> they mess up the roster
12:46:34  <andythenorth> from 1860-1985, there is a consistent pattern
12:46:47  <andythenorth> small fast, big fast, small freight, big freight
12:47:23  <andythenorth> but all modern fast pax trains have pointy engine things at both ends
12:47:35  <andythenorth> this looks stupid hauling freight
12:47:51  <andythenorth> or mail
12:51:29  <andythenorth> hmm
12:53:17  <andythenorth> maybe the pointy things are some extra pax-only class
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12:57:12  * andythenorth such thinking
12:57:17  <andythenorth> brain steam
13:02:01  <Wolf01> Let's check some real life suggestions
13:03:24  <andythenorth> trying to figure out whether to split mail / freight
13:03:33  <andythenorth> currently mail cars refit to freight
13:03:41  <andythenorth> and mail cars go at pax speeds
13:03:52  <andythenorth> so you have super-fast pointy trains hauling explosives or vehicle parts :P
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13:08:37  <Wolf01> Real life says really fast freight trains it's useless
13:11:00  <Wolf01> Or ignore RL and move to galaxy express:
13:18:00  <andythenorth> neat
13:18:09  <andythenorth> maybe I should split pax/mail
13:18:21  <andythenorth> hog and sam don’t combine them
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13:33:25  <Wolf01> o/
13:33:29  <Alberth> o/
13:35:56  <Flygon> o/
13:48:49  <Wolf01> BBL, very later
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14:27:52  <Samu> heh, i thought the impact of inflation would be terribad, but apparently it's still under control
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14:35:35  <andythenorth> supermop: yo
14:35:52  <supermop_> yo
14:36:15  <supermop_> what to do about inscrutable slack message from boss at 11:59 pm
14:37:11  <supermop_> that seems to be a screed about not sending out some material, when said boss was copied on the email sending it out, and even replied to the thread
14:37:47  * supermop_ is thinking the answer is 'quit job'
14:38:06  <andythenorth> maybe
14:39:20  * andythenorth thinks no HST for Brit Horse
14:39:25  <supermop_> boooo
14:39:33  <supermop_> it should be all HSTs
14:39:42  <andythenorth> I can replace it with something funnner
14:39:50  <andythenorth> an actual engine
14:40:06  <andythenorth> which one?
14:40:10  <supermop_> HST = best brit industrial design
14:40:15  <andythenorth> I know but it’s bad in game :P
14:40:18  <supermop_> way better than a dyson
14:40:25  <andythenorth> what about an iphone?
14:40:29  <supermop_> maybe better than an e-type
14:40:30  <andythenorth> iphone is quite boring actually
14:40:47  <supermop_> ives is a bad designer
14:40:51  <andythenorth> what engine then, for 1990 or so, fast pax
14:40:59  <supermop_> avocet?
14:41:05  <andythenorth> got that already, electric
14:41:07  <andythenorth> need a diesel
14:41:10  <andythenorth> either class 67-ish
14:41:11  <supermop_> hst
14:41:19  <andythenorth> the dual-headed thing is too weird
14:41:26  <andythenorth> and there’s no way to force it to pax-only
14:41:34  <supermop_> sell it one piece
14:41:44  <supermop_> let people buy two if they really want
14:41:44  <andythenorth> maybe
14:41:50  <andythenorth> dunn
14:41:52  <andythenorth> dunno *
14:42:12  <supermop_> or you could just do a dyson vacuum
14:42:16  <andythenorth> hoover :P
14:42:23  <andythenorth> could do an upgraded class 50, and call it dyson
14:42:31  <andythenorth> low quality pun
14:42:59  <andythenorth> the set progression relies on ‘fast diesel’ rather than ‘pax train'
14:43:06  <andythenorth> so HST just doesn’t fit right
14:46:45  <andythenorth> I could do the wagon-attach callback I guess
14:46:50  <andythenorth> and only allow pax coachs
14:46:55  <andythenorth> dunno, biabn
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14:52:48  <supermop_> why can't one of the buffered 43's pull hoppers?
14:54:02  <supermop_> brb laundry
15:03:53  <Samu> - running costs are under control with inflation
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15:17:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't think back-to-back pair of power cars would look too strange on freight
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15:17:56  <FLHerne> Happens with the sleeper trains occasionally
15:19:01  <FLHerne>
15:19:58  <Alberth> what makes you think reality is not weird?
15:21:20  <supermop_> 2 43s and a 47?
15:22:02  <andythenorth> FLHerne: is that photoshopped :)
15:22:36  <FLHerne> GWR use 57s (re-engined 47s) on the sleeper, but they're not especially reliable
15:22:54  <andythenorth>
15:22:56  <FLHerne> And there aren't exactly a lot of spare locos out west anymore
15:22:57  <andythenorth> such
15:23:02  <supermop_> so.. the 2x 43s are the backup?
15:23:26  <FLHerne> So that happens quite often, because there /are/ a ton of HST power cars to borrow
15:23:52  <FLHerne> Well, a couple of times a year afaict
15:24:00  <supermop_> so why not just use the 43s?
15:24:23  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, but this one is
15:24:40  <andythenorth> I found that one already :)
15:25:00  <FLHerne> supermop_: They don't have a standard ECS supply
15:25:58  <FLHerne> supermop_: They looked at rewiring all the sleeper stock to work with HST power (three-phase 470V AC rather than ~1000V DC), but apparently it wasn't worthwhile
15:26:18  <FLHerne> Anyway, there haven't been any spare HST powercars until very recently
15:36:27  <andythenorth> hmm
15:36:32  <andythenorth> well I am no less puzzled
15:36:45  <andythenorth> the roster has a design, and the HST doesn’t fit :P
15:40:06  <andythenorth> maybe I should fix the railcars
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15:42:12  <andythenorth> I’m splitting pax and parcels railcars
15:42:20  <andythenorth> shall I call parcels Scooby Doo? :P
16:10:46  <Alberth> sure
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16:30:35  <andythenorth> so wagon attach callback….stupid and annoying?
16:30:56  <andythenorth> (that’s the one that limits which wagons can be hauled by which engines)
16:39:13  <frosch123> better than start/stop callback
16:39:37  <supermop_> what if it was only stop callback
16:39:56  <supermop_> "can't stop this train: it lacks a brake van"
16:41:06  <andythenorth> :P
16:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the worst part about is is that you can trivially circumvent it
16:42:17  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: there exist wagons in real life for that
16:43:46  <andythenorth> supermop: I need a fake 1990s fast diesel
16:43:56  <andythenorth> probably end up with a class 67, but that’s borings
16:44:23  <supermop_> if its fake, just take a box with a sloping cab on one or both ends
16:44:29  <andythenorth> name
16:44:31  <andythenorth> and stats
16:44:34  <supermop_> dyson
16:44:49  <andythenorth> probably a trademark :P
16:44:56  <andythenorth> also dyson is a nickname for class 92 :P
16:45:09  <supermop_> trademarks are specific to markets
16:45:36  <andythenorth> yeah, it’s trademarked for toys and games
16:45:44  <supermop_> why
16:46:00  <andythenorth> kids have toy dysons
16:46:03  <supermop_> haha
16:46:06  <supermop_> really?
16:46:07  <andythenorth> we have toy Henry also :P
16:46:09  <supermop_> so british
16:46:30  <andythenorth>
16:46:33  <supermop_> do they have toy hand dryers?
16:46:40  <andythenorth> not yet
16:46:48  <andythenorth> probably sell like hot cakes
16:47:04  <supermop_> henry shop vac is basically a toy already
16:47:14  <andythenorth> let’s fake something
16:47:38  <supermop_> hmm 90s british
16:47:46  <supermop_> 'fatboy'
16:47:47  <andythenorth> refurbished hoover
16:47:50  <supermop_> 'big beat'
16:47:53  <andythenorth> or a re-engined class 47
16:47:59  <andythenorth> or a 67 (skip)
16:48:23  <supermop_> 'blur'
16:48:28  <andythenorth> previous gen pax engine is ‘wizzo’ (class 42 / 52 hybrid)
16:49:03  <supermop_> 'gatecrasher'
16:49:13  <supermop_> does it have to be early 90s?
16:49:26  <andythenorth> no
16:49:29  <andythenorth> flying log?
16:49:37  <andythenorth> Doughnut?
16:49:53  <andythenorth> Fast Jet?
16:50:08  <andythenorth> I just added ‘Plastic Postbox’ for mail :P
16:50:22  <andythenorth> Thunderbird?
16:50:29  <supermop_> good loco name
16:50:47  <supermop_> hopefully players dont think it is only for stuck trains
16:51:19  <supermop_> going to get some lunch
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18:38:11  <supermop_> hmm maybe I should re-order p list
18:39:29  <supermop_>  electric trams,  diesel trams, then electric mail trams, then diesel mail trams
18:39:32  <supermop_> feels weird
18:40:02  <supermop_> electric pax, electric mail, diesel pax, diesel mail?
18:40:42  <supermop_> or elec. pax, elec mail, elect articulated pax, elect articulated mail .....
18:40:53  <supermop_> i wonder how egrvts does it
18:41:44  <frosch123> via refit?
18:41:59  <supermop_> they are separate trams
18:42:07  <supermop_> in both egrvts and my grf
18:42:35  <supermop_> RVs that change between passengers and cargo don't work well due to how roadstops work
18:42:56  <frosch123> true
18:44:39  <supermop_> egrvts seems to go all pax, then all mail
18:45:25  <supermop_> not sure how ill divide between diesel and electric though
19:06:12  <andythenorth> ach
19:06:22  <andythenorth> if a roster is Brit-ish
19:06:29  <andythenorth> and the UK doesn’t have fast passenger trains
19:06:33  <andythenorth> what to do?
19:06:38  <supermop_> dream?
19:06:39  <andythenorth> players complain there’s no fast trains
19:07:07  <andythenorth> but the stats progression doesn’t permit them
19:07:17  <supermop_>
19:07:34  <andythenorth> the previous electric engine is 3,200hp
19:07:46  <andythenorth> and hp goes up in 800hp incremements
19:07:55  <supermop_> ^ has 7400
19:07:57  <andythenorth> previous speed is 110mph, and it goes up in 15mph increments
19:07:59  <andythenorth> I know :)
19:08:08  <supermop_> whoosh
19:08:51  <andythenorth> sudden huge stats bumps mess up the game
19:08:57  <andythenorth> that’s what railtypes are for
19:09:38  <andythenorth> I am thinking again about adding high speed rail
19:09:43  <andythenorth> from 2000 or so
19:12:21  <supermop_> horse is the realm of idealized BR-ish dreams
19:12:30  <andythenorth> it’s getting horribly realistic tbh
19:12:32  <andythenorth> real names
19:12:34  <supermop_> so a 93-ish loco would make sense
19:12:34  <andythenorth> real stats :(
19:13:09  <supermop_> I assume horse runs in a dream world where steel and coal are still nationalized
19:13:50  <andythenorth> you should try a nightly
19:13:53  <supermop_> how else does a steel mill get built in the middle of nowhere and sit idle for decades until you get around to serving it
19:13:53  <andythenorth> it’s not playable really :P
19:14:21  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe some very fast EMUs with pax on the engine
19:14:25  <andythenorth> like Pendolinos
19:14:34  <supermop_> makes sense
19:14:44  <andythenorth> not sure what problem I’m solving :)
19:14:50  <andythenorth> freight is capped at 100mph anyway :)
19:14:51  <supermop_> me neither
19:15:01  <andythenorth> I should add more railcars, they are easy :P
19:15:32  <supermop_> still cant decide how to stack up my tree of switches
19:16:55  <andythenorth> I don’t want to persuade you to templating :)
19:17:06  <andythenorth> but the switch order only matters for compile times :)
19:17:13  <andythenorth> [and personal satisfaction]
19:17:15  <supermop_> not going to happy until wife has more free time
19:17:23  <supermop_> *happen
19:17:40  <supermop_> if I teach myself python now, ill be bombarding her with questions
19:17:52  <supermop_> same with c
19:18:26  <andythenorth> templating first needs familiarity with writing it manually anyway
19:19:23  <andythenorth> hmm
19:19:31  * andythenorth has some ideas, might be more than one
19:28:01  <andythenorth> high speed passenger electric units
19:28:41  <andythenorth> 2-car units, with magic when multiple units are in a consist
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19:35:38  <supermop_> I wonder what 'date_of_last_service' returns if vehicle has not yet services
19:39:04  <supermop_> also maybe I should make livery random after 2050 or 2100, to break up monotony of 'last' livery going on forever
19:39:53  <supermop_> presumably, in 2100, a 1980s tram is a preserved novelty, and riders would be interested in all the various historic liveries it carried
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19:41:26  <supermop_> I'm thinking of shying away from frosch's code to just make livery based on build/depot year absolutely, with no random
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19:53:49  <supermop_> if date of last service returns YYYY, MM, DD
19:54:07  <supermop_> can I make a decision only on the MM, DD?
19:54:45  <supermop_> like, and tram that goes to depot on may 5th (on any year) gets a special livery?
20:03:49  <andythenorth> someone’s birthday?
20:04:06  <supermop_> in this case the z-class's birthday
20:04:21  <supermop_> but just a way to hide an ultra rare special livery
20:04:45  <supermop_> like an art tram
20:05:26  <supermop_> easier to give it 1 in 256 change to randomly appear, but date feels more special
20:05:42  <supermop_> I think ive dropped the idea though
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20:35:47  <Greyfur> Hello!
20:41:16  <andythenorth> lo
20:42:12  <andythenorth> supermop: so I’m adding some express pax electric units
20:42:29  <andythenorth> wondering whether to go all way back to brighton belle?
20:42:39  <andythenorth>
20:47:12  <supermop_> nice
20:49:46  <Greyfur> Anyone coding vehicles in NML?
20:51:08  <supermop_> trying to
20:51:32  <Wolf01> Back, better late than never, lost in the mist
20:56:42  * andythenorth is coding vehicles
20:57:08  <Wolf01> I'm stuffed of japanese food
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21:12:08  <Wolf01> trolleybus!
21:12:41  <supermop_> Wolf01 !!
21:17:14  * andythenorth bed
21:17:21  <Wolf01> Slashdot: "What Will Replace Computer Keyboards?"... other computer keyboards
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21:24:22  <Greyfur> Wolf01:
21:24:42  <Greyfur> :P trolleybus.
21:25:05  <Wolf01> :)
21:25:31  <supermop_> implementing frosch's magic for repainting
21:25:39  <supermop_> fingers crossed
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21:43:01  <supermop_> well my implementation is almost twice as long
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22:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: clearly keyboards will be replaced by minority-report-like gestures
22:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> those are obviously way superior
22:41:14  <Wolf01> Yeah, Elon already show it IRL
22:42:05  <Wolf01> But I don't think we'll see it in homes, maybe in some companies
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23:16:04  <supermop_> hmm
23:16:25  <supermop_> I think I am missing something for this random livery stuff
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23:24:45  <Greyfur_> Supermop_ You are doing random livery road vehicles?
23:25:00  <supermop_> not entirely random
23:25:04  <supermop_> that would be easy
23:25:10  <Greyfur_> That is something I have been recently doing for Karosa ýéé buses myself...
23:25:29  <Greyfur_> Karosa 700
23:25:35  <supermop_> the idea is that a tram might be in service for 40-50 years
23:25:48  <Greyfur_> yes
23:25:59  <supermop_> and maybe even though it is old, sometimes it gets a 'new' livery
23:26:33  <supermop_> and it should only get the new livery if it is in the depot for service
23:26:34  <Greyfur_> Ok, so does the livery change base on current year?
23:26:51  <supermop_> but not all trams get repainted right away
23:27:06  <supermop_> so it has maybe only a 25% of getting the new paint
23:27:33  <supermop_> and it never will get an 'old' livery to replace a new one
23:27:51  <Greyfur_> I understand, so based on current year a % chance it will be repainted
23:28:09  <supermop_> so the problem is, if every tram always immediately gets the new one, easy just have a current year switch
23:28:53  <supermop_> and if it is just a probability what livery to get, easy, just use random_bits
23:29:25  <supermop_> but to prevent new tram getting old livery, but also allow some old trams to keep old livery
23:29:37  <supermop_> you need some big code with random triggers
23:30:08  <supermop_> because otherwise trams have no storage to 'remember' their current livery
23:30:23  <supermop_> I don't know if it works yet
23:30:51  <Greyfur_> If you know what the old livery was and in which years it has been produced... I think you could do a build_year switch, which would then point towards the current year switch, which would then point towards random_switch
23:31:36  <supermop_> yes but lets say a tram is built 1970, with 1970 paint
23:32:23  <supermop_> it goes to depot in 1980, and switch says 'from 1979 to 1982, 25% chance of getting 1980 paint'
23:32:35  <supermop_> so tram gets lucky and gets new paint
23:32:55  <supermop_> now in 1981, maybe it goes to depot again, rolls dice again
23:33:15  <supermop_> but there is still 75% chance to get the 1970 paint,
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23:33:31  <Greyfur> Got disconnected
23:33:35  <Greyfur> sorry
23:33:39  <supermop_> so now newly repainted tram gets painted back to the old
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23:34:11  <Greyfur> yes, I see your point
23:34:18  <supermop_> so you need a way 'ratchet' the liveries
23:34:50  <supermop_> so 1970 ->1980 can happen, but 1980 -> 1970 cannot
23:35:13  <supermop_> I might give up and get rid of the random
23:35:29  <supermop_> because maybe most players do not send tram to depot often
23:35:53  <Greyfur> For custom texts, there is something like return CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT;
23:36:11  <Greyfur> Is there a way to get out of a wswitch without a change?
23:36:33  <supermop_> we couldn't figure one out
23:37:23  <supermop_> the tram doesn't really go 'into' the switch knowing it's current state, so there isn't a way to leave the switch with same state as it entered
23:37:50  <Greyfur> I know that issue
23:38:03  <supermop_> the best way seems to be to just randomly trigger whether it goes to the switch at all
23:38:42  <supermop_> but I have never used random trigger before, so I don't know if I am doing it right
23:38:54  <Greyfur> but that already asks for an option to do no change at all
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23:39:45  <supermop_>
23:39:50  <Greyfur> I do have random triggers based on % chance
23:40:02  <supermop_> here is code frosch proposed for me
23:40:42  <Greyfur> I am picking realistic liveries based on the production year
23:41:16  <Greyfur> but you cannot base anything on productrion month, so I have to do it randomly within that year
23:43:13  <supermop_> you can use date of last service maybe?
23:43:38  <supermop_> it is set to the day of construction when you first build it
23:44:08  <supermop_> ofc it will reset everytime it goes to depot
23:44:43  <supermop_> but you could use a vehicle age switch to skip that one
23:45:09  <supermop_> so if vehicle is >1 day old, it no longer looks at date of last service
23:53:43  <Greyfur> That is a good idea. I will try it
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