Log for #openttd on 19th October 2017:
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05:51:29  <V453000> him
05:53:45  <andythenorth> I hate him
05:53:50  <andythenorth> such idiot
05:53:54  <andythenorth> who?
06:15:14  <V453000> yes
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06:23:02  <andythenorth> 6/8 or 8/8 for long wagons?
06:23:06  <andythenorth> or 0/8 (delete them)
06:25:33  <andythenorth>
06:25:41  <andythenorth> 4/8 and 6/8
06:25:47  <andythenorth> 4/8 and 8/8
06:53:15  <V453000> you know my opinion about weird lengths :) other than that they look awesome
06:53:31  <andythenorth> logic says 8/8
06:53:46  <andythenorth> - 6/8 doesn’t make integer lengths very often
06:54:38  <andythenorth> but 6/8 looks better
06:54:56  <andythenorth> “but what is reason for having 2 lengths andythenorth?"
06:55:37  <andythenorth> - for when different trains (orders, cargos) need to use same wagon class
06:55:49  <andythenorth> helps player distinguish them
06:55:52  <andythenorth> looks more interesting
06:56:45  <V453000> well it's certainly cool to have 6/8, it's a nice middle ground between the short and long
06:56:48  <V453000> but yeah :)
06:57:09  <andythenorth> 3 lengths? :P
06:58:51  <V453000> if I didn't have integer hitlerism, I would have made gen 1,2,3 in 4,6,8 too
06:59:34  <andythenorth> what is rationale?
06:59:40  <andythenorth> other than spamming menu?
07:00:21  <andythenorth>
07:01:10  <andythenorth> ha ha
07:08:02  <V453000> :) iz 3
07:08:35  <andythenorth> not doing 3 lengths for all of them :P
07:08:56  <V453000> :D well you don't exactly have to I guess
07:09:04  <V453000> further variety
07:09:38  <andythenorth> innit
07:13:38  <V453000> having everything super consistent is good, but at the same time no variety at all is boring
07:13:43  <V453000> nuts is having this problem kind of
07:14:00  <V453000> the ultimate wagon is awesome, but it completely removes the fiddling with wagons, their lengths and stuff
07:14:02  <V453000> you just use the wagon
07:14:58  <andythenorth> it’s a nice end-run around the problem
07:15:30  <andythenorth> but I like the train building bit of the game
07:15:53  <andythenorth> I just don’t want to do economic analysis of the most optimum wagon given all factors :x
07:15:58  <andythenorth> like most grfs :P
07:20:46  <V453000> I go, baby business
07:20:47  <V453000> cyaz
07:21:23  <andythenorth> laterz
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08:30:16  <andythenorth> V453000: fuck it, probably fine like this, right?
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09:00:15  <andythenorth> also
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09:04:12  <Wolf01> o/
09:04:47  <andythenorth> yo
09:12:02  <Wolf01> Shitty java update, always fail to download
09:17:36  <andythenorth> hmm
09:17:45  <andythenorth> horse has fewer wagon types than original TTD
09:17:50  * andythenorth thought it was a lot more
09:17:56  <andythenorth> never forget Toyland :P
09:20:02  <Wolf01> I'm glad that TF only have 4 types of wagons
09:20:45  <Wolf01> Open box/hopper, flat, liquid and bulk
09:20:58  <andythenorth> does it auto-refit?
09:21:01  <Wolf01> Yes
09:21:05  <andythenorth> fair
09:21:06  <Wolf01> Automatically
09:21:55  <Wolf01> If you don't force a cargo refit it autorefits, which is a thing I hate and love
09:24:01  <andythenorth> bbl
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11:47:08  <Wolf01> andythenorth: chibi ->
11:49:27  <andythenorth> kind of inverse chibi
11:49:34  <andythenorth> those crawler track vehicles are huge :)
11:51:19  <Wolf01> I think I need some kre-o parts for my moc
11:51:40  <Wolf01> And as a purist this make me sad
11:53:13  <Wolf01> <- got tempted by this blog
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13:29:04  <supermop_> yo
13:29:52  <Wolf01> o/
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13:30:26  <Wolf01> I have just a bit of appetite...
13:30:36  <andythenorth> I have jerk goat curry and rice
13:30:44  <andythenorth> possibly I won
13:30:54  <Wolf01> I finished the biscuits
13:31:00  <Wolf01> 6 packs in a month
13:31:29  <Wolf01> I think I ate my weight in biscuits
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13:33:03  <Gustavo6046> This API is soooo big!
13:33:23  <Gustavo6046> I'm still trying to find the function that gives the TownID of the nth largest town.
13:33:25  <supermop_> 6 packs of biscuits sounds much less heavy than a person
13:33:30  <supermop_> (or a wolf)
13:33:43  <Gustavo6046> Or how to get current balance.
13:34:03  <supermop_> apparently i exported like half of my p menu sprites with wrong pallette
13:34:14  <Wolf01> supermop_: depends on the weight of the biscuits and my weight
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13:35:49  <Gustavo6046> inb4 as heavy as a 9 year old
13:35:53  <Gustavo6046> (jk)
13:36:00  <Gustavo6046> Anyway, I've got to look for things.
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13:37:57  <supermop_> i am imagining a large box of saltine crackers
13:38:03  <supermop_> which is 1 lbs
13:38:16  <supermop_> so 6 of those.... wolf weight 3 kg?
13:39:17  <Wolf01> I eat 750-800g packs of biscuits
13:39:41  <Samu> hi
13:40:01  <Wolf01> Now I just want to eat one of those saw kit boxes full of butter biscuits
13:40:03  <supermop_> so wolf weighs 4.8 kg
13:40:05  <Samu> i made a pricing table for comparison
13:40:20  <Samu>
13:40:25  <Gustavo6046> Hello Samu.
13:40:29  <__ln__> Wolf01: why do you eat things like that in those quantities?
13:40:34  <Samu> hi Gustavo6046
13:40:58  <Gustavo6046> Well. I still can't seem to find out where to get the EngineID of the cheapest bus.
13:40:59  <Wolf01> __ln__: To keep my BMI at a reasonable value
13:41:08  <Gustavo6046> The function is not in AIEngine it seems.
13:41:17  <Gustavo6046> Or then I searched wrong (Ctrl+F).
13:43:43  <Samu> i tried to match running costs of trains with delivery rate of buses
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13:48:09  <Samu> mps regal bus is to be compared with chaney jubilee / dash
13:48:48  <Samu> hereford leopard bus vs floss 47 / sh 40
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13:50:30  <Samu> well.. diesel engines are kinda... too cheap
13:51:10  <Samu> steam engines are a little bit expensive
13:51:51  <Samu> electric engines, at least the first ones, are in my view, in the right spot
13:52:01  <supermop_> Samu: isn't that the point of diesel engines?
13:52:09  <supermop_> that they are cheaper than steam
13:52:36  <Samu> i guess in real life
13:52:44  <Samu> dunno the history
13:52:49  <supermop_> if everything is 'matched' what is the point of playing the game?
13:53:56  <Samu> there's still no real balance regarding those 300+ km/h trains
13:54:12  <supermop_> if a passenger route of x tiles has the same profit and cost for a given capacity regardless of bus , steam, or diesel train, why even bother have different types
13:54:35  <supermop_> just build the route with whatever bus exists in 1930 and never change it
13:55:32  <supermop_> Samu: if you offer me the chance to ride a 300kmh train from here to chicago or do the same journey on a bus, why would i ever take the bus
13:56:34  <Samu> i'm not really into the social aspect of the game :(
13:56:52  <supermop_> its kind of integral to the game that some modes of transit are objectively better
13:57:26  <supermop_> the bus is easier and cheaper to set up, but is not as efficient or sustainable to scale over distance or capacity
13:58:20  <supermop_> so different types are for different uses
13:58:32  <andythenorth> also there has to be an optimum type
13:58:39  <andythenorth> balancing is nonsense
13:58:48  <supermop_> andythenorth: it is clearly trains
13:59:06  <andythenorth> dragon-farming games aren’t balanced
13:59:21  <andythenorth> well, they are, but not levelled
13:59:41  <supermop_> but in the slow early game it might be too difficult to build a train line so the game gives you some shitty buses as a sop
14:00:01  <andythenorth> yes
14:00:03  <andythenorth> it’s progression
14:00:12  <andythenorth> also trains can’t drive on water, so boats
14:02:25  <andythenorth> supermop_: so I went full on overkill on wagons
14:02:36  <Samu> i was just trying to closely match running costs of trains with the rest. I saw an opportunity to add costs on wagons
14:03:34  <supermop_> don't wagons already have a running cost?
14:03:53  <supermop_> nice tanks
14:03:53  <Samu> the originals don't have
14:04:07  <supermop_> Samu: at all?
14:04:24  <supermop_> i never play with original vehicles
14:04:32  <andythenorth> running cost is newgrf
14:04:38  <Samu> they have an INVALID_PRICE or something
14:04:43  <Samu> not even £0
14:05:44  <Samu> patch identifies these wagons with INVALID_PRICE and then simulates costs
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14:06:41  <Samu> i tried to make it newgrf friendly, but I suppose I'm failing somewhere
14:07:06  <Samu> but i haven't found any newgrf with INVALID_PRICE on their wagons yet
14:07:08  <Samu> do u know of any?
14:11:18  <supermop_> simulates cost? does it just set cost to some value?
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14:12:19  <andythenorth> replace original base set trains with newgrf :P
14:12:22  <andythenorth> job done
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14:12:42  <Samu> cost is based on parts that specify a cost, in the case of original trains, the engines
14:13:12  <supermop_> Samu: a coal wagon should cost the same regardless of what pulls it
14:13:29  <supermop_> running cost should be based on a % of the purchase cost
14:13:54  <Samu> i tried a linear cost with v3
14:14:29  <supermop_> if you want to get exotic it could cost more if it is being pulled faster, but that is problematic as the user doesn't necessarily know that will be the case
14:15:04  <supermop_> if it says /year, but your wagon is costing you /year, it will look broken
14:15:26  <Samu> it doesn't say what it costs until it's attached to an engin
14:15:38  <supermop_> that is kind of problematic
14:15:39  <Samu> it's not a fixed value
14:15:50  <Samu> it's based on engine type and length of train
14:16:46  <supermop_> why does a coal hopper cost more to repair depending on the engine that pulls it?
14:16:59  <supermop_> are they paying to clean coal soot off of the roof
14:16:59  <supermop_> ?
14:18:10  <Samu> :) yes, maybe
14:18:17  <Samu> lol i dunno what to say about that
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14:18:57  <Samu> the lenghtier the train, the costlier the running cost per wagon
14:19:13  <supermop_> that is like the opposite of what it should be
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14:19:42  <Samu> if you split those wagons with a 2nd train
14:19:51  <supermop_> they whole point of a train, in game and in real life, is that it gets cheaper and more efficient as capacity goes up
14:19:57  <Samu> the sum of both trains running costs should match
14:19:57  <Gustavo6046> supermop_, I'm trying to first do a basic AI that uses the best available bus and links some towns using Djikstra algorithm
14:20:27  <supermop_> two 500t trains should always cost more than one 1000t train
14:20:42  <supermop_> that is the raison d'etre of trains
14:20:59  <Samu> sec, let me see one thing here
14:21:12  <supermop_> the tracks are expensive, and the locomotive costs more than a truck, but it can scale
14:22:28  <supermop_> you are basically trying to encourage this:
14:23:06  <Gustavo6046> lol
14:23:29  <andythenorth> one piece flow
14:23:31  <supermop_> neii don't see how it improves the game to have that ^ be equal to a truck, or for 100 of those ^ to be equal to one long train
14:23:31  <andythenorth> most ultimate
14:23:35  <Gustavo6046> I always though locomotives were too costly.
14:23:39  <Samu> lol, signle wagon?
14:23:52  <andythenorth> optimum for inventory turn
14:23:54  <Samu> let me try
14:24:04  <andythenorth> might not be optimum for network utilisation
14:24:07  <andythenorth> or cost per unit
14:24:27  <Samu> oki, i got 3 trains here, train 1 with 5 wagons, train 2 with 10 wagons, train 3 with 1 wagon
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14:24:33  <supermop_> the locomotive is expensive, and impractical to pull one car, but the locomotive can pull 10 or 20 or 50 cars
14:24:51  <andythenorth> self-powered wagon
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14:25:01  <andythenorth> 8/8, 750hp
14:25:03  <andythenorth> 40 crates
14:25:06  <andythenorth> winning
14:25:06  <supermop_> andythenorth: container railcar
14:25:09  <andythenorth> yup
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14:25:33  <supermop_> i wonder if pacer frame could support FCL
14:25:42  <Samu> costs are train 1 -  £9,981/yr, train 2 - £24,107/yr, train 3 - £5,461
14:25:59  <Samu> cost per wagon are
14:26:03  <supermop_> that looks really wrong
14:26:11  <Gustavo6046> There could be a cheaper electric engine as well.
14:26:20  <andythenorth> supermop_: pacer is a high-speed wagon chassis with a bus body on it
14:26:23  <Gustavo6046> After the SH-40 is introduced.
14:26:37  <Gustavo6046> I don't think it'd encourage trains with 1 wagon.
14:26:39  <supermop_> you are saying that two 5 car trains are cheaper than one 10 car train
14:26:41  <andythenorth> supermop_
14:26:45  <Samu> on train 1 - £941/yr, on train 2 - £1,883/yr, on train 3 - £188/yr
14:26:59  <supermop_> andythenorth: i used to ride them all the time on harrogate line
14:27:19  <supermop_> i am sorry that is stupidly dumb
14:28:03  <Wolf01> supermop_: but you don't understand
14:28:06  <supermop_> how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined
14:28:19  <Samu> looks like I was wrong when I said that
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14:29:32  <Samu> well, because the cost of the engine might have an impact
14:29:39  <Gustavo6046> supermop_, true, two engines cost more than one, their cost at around 60x the car cost makes it nearly indifferent without a shit ton of cars, which would require more engines too
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14:29:55  <Samu> should be costlier to buy 2 engines
14:30:06  <Samu> but running costs on the other hand.... yeah... are cheaper
14:30:14  <Alberth> 2 engines against a mountain of money?
14:30:27  <andythenorth> lo Alberth :)
14:30:34  <Wolf01> Could running costs be made so they increase exponentially with the train age? In TF they are like this and make me constantly renew vehicles if I don't want to be submerged in debts... it costs less to renew vehicles than maintain 50y/o vehicles
14:30:34  <Alberth> lo andy :)
14:30:41  <Gustavo6046> Alberth, if you had like 2M you could try 20 engines, in a well signaled track, and ??? then profit :)
14:30:43  <Wolf01> o/ Alberth
14:30:49  <Gustavo6046> hello!
14:30:55  <supermop_> Wolf01: i think you can do that in nml
14:30:57  <Alberth> o/ all
14:31:07  <Gustavo6046> meow.
14:31:29  <andythenorth> yeah running costs can increase based on age, service date, etc
14:31:34  <andythenorth> if there is an ‘r’ in the month
14:31:37  <Alberth> 2M? in most games I have millions of millions
14:31:39  <andythenorth> but not phase of the moon
14:31:59  * andythenorth wonders if moon phase var could be added for newgrf
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14:32:07  <andythenorth> we could presumably encode it for the day
14:32:18  <Alberth> day of month is quite a good approximation?
14:32:24  <supermop_> andythenorth: you could probably figure it out via a complex switch
14:32:25  <andythenorth> I guess newgrf could do it in a big switch
14:32:33  <supermop_> yeah
14:32:37  <Gustavo6046> So billions?
14:32:53  <supermop_> "ship can't go to this dock... tide too low"
14:32:55  <Alberth> no idea, I never counted how many digits money I have
14:32:58  <Gustavo6046> btw I'm eating rice, chicken and potato sticks.
14:33:18  <andythenorth> who wanted tank wagon variety?
14:33:22  <Gustavo6046> These sticks
14:33:32  <Gustavo6046> lmao andy awesome
14:33:42  <Gustavo6046> release them all
14:33:44  <Alberth> around the 5-10th year my income is bigger than what I can spend. Then I stop caring about money
14:33:44  <Gustavo6046> see the profit
14:33:47  <supermop_> Alberth: i set my currency to won or yen so it is just a big indifferentiable pile
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14:34:05  <Gustavo6046> Alberth, I don't usually profit a lot XD
14:34:08  <Gustavo6046> Only if inflation is off
14:34:30  <Alberth> I do that standard, as inflation doesn't add anything useful
14:34:47  <Gustavo6046> If I have inflation on all of my company dies!
14:34:50  <Gustavo6046> :P
14:35:02  <Alberth> just generating big numbers without meaning
14:35:13  <Gustavo6046> Yeah, it does give a realistic feel, but still sucks
14:35:24  <Gustavo6046> Alberth, it increases cost without increasing the value of existing stuff
14:35:33  <Gustavo6046> so early game is always a well valued game
14:35:56  <Samu> so my formula is flawed somewhere :(
14:36:02  <Alberth> so it takes me a few more years to get to break-even
14:36:12  <Alberth> and then I stop caring :p
14:36:45  <Samu> "how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined" - thx supermop_
14:37:20  <Alberth> it's called non-linear costs :p
14:37:20  <Gustavo6046> 'Modern Motion - Rock Power' metal version who?
14:37:31  <Gustavo6046> Yeah
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14:38:54  <Samu> 1/10 vs 1/5 + 1/5
14:39:02  <Alberth> technically, non-linear can also mean the 10cars cost less, but that happens suspicious few times
14:40:55  <Samu> 1/10 - £24,107/yr
14:41:09  <Gustavo6046> Samu, 1/10 = 0.1 and 1/5 + 1/5 = 0.2 + 0.2 = 0.4
14:41:10  <andythenorth> hmm
14:41:15  <Samu> 1/5 + 1/5 - £19,962/yr
14:41:33  <andythenorth> if this ‘small’, ‘medium’, ‘large’ thing works, some of the ‘large’ wagons could be very large :P
14:41:52  <Alberth> mega large
14:41:55  <Alberth> aka huge
14:42:17  <Alberth> aka insane storage capacity
14:42:31  <Samu> 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 - £54,610/yr
14:42:39  <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, idea: you can have the sprites flexible (both ends are the same, but the middle (with two wheels) is tiled as many times as an user given value V, which is also the size of the wagon.)
14:43:13  <Alberth> Samu: you need more drivers for more trains
14:43:16  <supermop_> should p menu sprites change with time
14:43:59  <Samu> 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 - £30,130/yr
14:44:01  <Alberth> supermop_: sounds a bit confusing
14:44:57  <supermop_> like, if a tram comes with a 2cc stripe on 1cc body in 1980, but in 1990 has 1 and 2 cc stripes on white body
14:45:16  <supermop_> does it matter if the p-menu still shows the old 1980 style?
14:45:37  <andythenorth> yes
14:45:58  <andythenorth> if the sprites are deterministic, purchase menu should change
14:46:15  <andythenorth> if they’re very random, then stable purchase menu sprite
14:46:40  <supermop_> current only a couple have any real randomness
14:46:51  <supermop_> most it is a progression of liveries
14:46:51  <Gustavo6046> freenode has more wolves. I've got to do a listing of Wolves using IRC!
14:47:24  <supermop_> and vehicles in preview get special livery
14:47:44  <Samu> 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/4 - £22,222/yr
14:47:51  <Alberth> blinking yellow neon would be nice
14:48:15  <Samu> well so 1/5 + 1/5 is the ideal for running costs
14:48:26  <Samu> i don't really know why
14:48:31  <Samu> some math magic is happening here
14:49:35  <Samu> it gets to a point that adding more wagons than a certain number isn't "worth it"
14:50:12  <Alberth> would transport more, and thus make more money, right?
14:50:27  <Samu> less efficiently
14:50:32  <supermop_> if i can stack sprites in the p menu then that would make things a bit easier
14:50:36  <supermop_> i think i can
14:50:50  <supermop_> why is a long train less efficient
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14:51:17  <Samu> because math
14:51:21  <supermop_> other than for accelleration
14:51:22  <Samu> and i fail at math
14:51:45  <supermop_> samu, i mean, why /should/ a long train be less effiecient
14:51:48  <Alberth> running cost increases faster with longer trains
14:52:00  <supermop_> how does that make the game more fun
14:53:13  <Alberth> for some forms of playing it no doubt is
14:54:56  <Alberth> coop also plays with short trains mostly, afaik, although that is driven by efficiency of the network rather than by cost
14:55:10  <Gustavo6046> 0% reliability means infinite breaking?
14:55:19  <Alberth> no, just a lot
14:55:23  <Gustavo6046> Oh ok
14:55:49  <Alberth> it's quite effective in taking down a network though :p
14:55:54  <Gustavo6046> Yeah.
14:56:01  <supermop_> Alberth: yeah, there is already a push for short trains in terms of signal/junction spacing and 'fun' of seeing more trains zip around
14:56:15  <Gustavo6046> Anyway, I am still trying to find out how to find the closest depot.
14:56:25  <Alberth> in code?
14:56:44  <supermop_> but that is 'balanced' by the larger capacity per dollar of long trains
14:56:52  <Alberth> just run A* from the depots to the train
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14:57:10  <supermop_> why patch the game to make it so there is never a reason to have a long train
14:57:22  <Gustavo6046> Yes
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14:57:33  <Gustavo6046> I will run Djikstra instead, ok?
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14:57:40  <Gustavo6046> I don't know A*
14:57:44  <Alberth> or do dijkstra from the train outwards until you reach a limit or find a depot
14:57:55  <Gustavo6046> As in from a crashed vehicle
14:57:58  <Gustavo6046> oh yes
14:58:00  <Gustavo6046> crashed train.
14:58:05  <Gustavo6046> Buses don't crash, right?
14:58:17  <Alberth> park one on a crossing :p
14:58:35  <Gustavo6046> >   CRASH_RV_UFO,
14:58:38  <Gustavo6046> Do vehicles get abducted??
14:58:44  <Alberth> yep
14:58:50  <Gustavo6046> awesome
14:58:55  <supermop_> "ship 1 has crashed.. wrong phase of moon"
14:59:00  <Gustavo6046> lol
14:59:02  <Alberth> not sure how though, I never saw it happen
14:59:06  <andythenorth> tide is low
14:59:08  <Gustavo6046> Me neither
14:59:10  <andythenorth> ship sank
14:59:16  <Gustavo6046> ^
14:59:26  <Samu> the reason to have a long train is because it's still cheaper than 2 trains, in the very early part of the game at least
14:59:29  <supermop_> andythenorth: isn't run aground the opposite of sinking
14:59:44  <Samu> single line
14:59:44  <supermop_> at least until the tide comes back
14:59:44  <andythenorth> not if you hole it, and the tide comes back in
14:59:51  * andythenorth has seen it done
15:00:20  <Gustavo6046> lol
15:00:28  <supermop_> "Ship 2 has crashed on the partially submerged wreckage of ship 1"
15:00:42  <Gustavo6046> lol
15:01:07  <Gustavo6046> "Meteor has crashed: The fat Earth is in the way!"
15:01:39  <supermop_> if you flood a track, do trains on it crash or just disappear?
15:01:50  <supermop_> "Train 1 has sunk"
15:02:02  <Gustavo6046> I think they crash
15:02:09  <Gustavo6046> the water is such a heavy solid
15:02:22  <supermop_> never tried it
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15:03:26  <Samu> for 2 trains, it's needed two lines, costs are definitely much higher, however... this is the goal anyway, what's confusing me is that longer trains can at times have running costs higher than 2 shorter trains. The question still stands :(
15:05:32  <andythenorth> they crash
15:05:34  * andythenorth tried it
15:06:18  <supermop_> can we patch that
15:06:23  <supermop_> so they sink instead
15:06:24  <andythenorth> Floods!  At least 2 presumed dead after significant flooding!
15:06:39  * andythenorth surprised that message exists
15:06:49  <andythenorth> given that I had to use the canal hack to build trains on water
15:06:51  <supermop_> that is the real message?
15:07:06  <Samu> i need a math expert
15:07:14  <supermop_> CS was a devious soul who loved to sink trains i guess
15:08:18  <andythenorth> unless canals were retconned into TTD...
15:08:22  <Alberth> andy, make some land at height 0 with a dike around it
15:08:24  <andythenorth> …I suspect we added that one
15:08:35  <Alberth> build train, then lower thedike
15:08:37  <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, you can also dig a valley
15:08:40  <Gustavo6046> put a train on a loop inside
15:08:41  <andythenorth> so you can
15:08:46  * andythenorth never does that
15:08:47  <Gustavo6046> and then connect the valley to a nearby body of water
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15:09:06  <Gustavo6046> RIP
15:09:51  <Gustavo6046> Put water in an airport and crash everyone there
15:10:00  <Gustavo6046> planes forever stuck or dead
15:10:35  <supermop_> andythenorth: i did it in tto
15:10:56  <supermop_> don't remember the flood msg
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15:14:34  <Gustavo6046> Why did I associate the SimCity 2000 theme song with OpenTTD?
15:15:49  <supermop_> idk but the tto themesong is awesome
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15:16:53  <Gustavo6046> My favorite songs in OpenTTD are both Modern Motion: they're Green Hill and Rock Power
15:16:54  <Gustavo6046> .
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15:46:32  <supermop_> ugh
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15:47:04  <supermop_> i dont understand why every sprite i saved from this computer yesterday and today now has the wrong pallet
15:47:21  <supermop_> it looks correct, it says it has 256 colors
15:47:43  <andythenorth> you can use photoshop automation to batch force a palette
15:48:27  <supermop_> but nmlc is telling me "invalid palatte: invalid palette, does not contain 256 entries
15:49:05  <supermop_> andythenorth: i am worried somehow my ttd palette on this PS got messed up,
15:49:33  <supermop_> because i just re-exported all of these this morning to try to correct
15:49:45  <andythenorth> how are you exporting?
15:49:54  <andythenorth> is it dropping unused colours?
15:49:55  <supermop_> "save for web"
15:49:58  <supermop_> and slices
15:50:11  <andythenorth> are the slice settings correct?
15:50:18  <supermop_> set to 256, not auto
15:50:20  <andythenorth> each slice can have its own setting...
15:50:35  <supermop_> gahhhhhhhh
15:50:37  <supermop_> shit
15:50:38  <supermop_> ok
15:50:41  <supermop_> thanks
15:50:52  <andythenorth> I don’t bother with slices anymore
15:50:56  <andythenorth> I used to, but too much faff
15:51:11  <andythenorth> don’t even use layers anymore, just draw straight into pngs
15:51:17  <supermop_> apparently slice 1 was set to something else
15:51:27  <supermop_> the other 3 were fine
15:52:37  <andythenorth> so I set out to reduce from 6 generations to 5, and from 2 variants to 1
15:52:47  <andythenorth> so how do I now have 6 generations, and 3 variants? :P
15:52:47  <Gustavo6046> Ok guys
15:53:03  <Alberth> saving 50% of the pixels, eh?
15:53:35  <Alberth> not quite working :p
15:53:39  <Gustavo6046> So I did a basic Dijkstra to find the closest depot to a road tile:
15:53:40  <andythenorth> the intention was 50% reduction yes :P
15:53:48  <Gustavo6046> But I forgot I was doing it for trains D:
15:54:05  <andythenorth> fortunately Alberth $someone added ‘hide train'
15:54:09  <andythenorth> in the buy menu
15:54:13  <supermop_> ok only 44 pngs to fix
15:54:24  <Alberth> haha, andy :)
15:55:19  <andythenorth> supermop_: batch :P
15:55:21  <Alberth> Gustavo6046: convert to road trains?
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15:56:02  <Gustavo6046> Heh
15:56:12  <Gustavo6046> I think this is better
15:56:43  <Gustavo6046> let me just convert to spaces
15:56:53  <Gustavo6046> er
15:57:05  <Alberth> blank page
15:57:10  <Gustavo6046>
15:57:18  <Alberth> probably too much javascript
15:57:22  <Gustavo6046> Blank?
15:57:27  <Gustavo6046>
15:57:31  <Gustavo6046> ^ raw
15:57:41  <Alberth> oh, lepa* thing works
15:57:48  <Gustavo6046> other than a pre tag
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16:01:37  <Alberth> no idea what I am reading, but I'll take your word for it that it's dijkstra
16:01:50  <Gustavo6046> It's a part of a Squirrel game script
16:02:06  <Alberth> yep .nut gave that away already :)
16:02:21  <Gustavo6046> Okay.
16:04:46  <Alberth> oh, local functions, ok
16:04:48  <supermop_> this grf takes a long time to compile
16:04:54  <supermop_> few thousand pngs
16:04:57  <Alberth> have a coffee
16:05:17  <supermop_> i can use the compile time to do real work that i am supposed to be doing
16:05:29  <andythenorth> Horse is 1 minute compile
16:05:31  <andythenorth> super painful
16:05:34  <Alberth> sounds like a good option too
16:06:05  <Samu> supermop_:
16:06:11  <Alberth> so that's the real reason for saving pixels, eh?
16:06:22  <andythenorth> it was the main driver for ‘delete’ yes
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16:07:00  <supermop_> can't really thoroughly test grf at work though
16:07:24  <Gustavo6046> ok
16:07:25  <Gustavo6046>
16:07:34  <Gustavo6046> ported from hastyebin
16:07:42  <Gustavo6046> "hast yer bin!"
16:07:45  <Samu> so, up to a train of with 7 wagons, it's always more efficient to have 1 train
16:07:58  <Samu> with 8 wagons, that changes
16:08:06  <Samu> it's better to have 2 trains
16:08:07  <supermop_> ok
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16:08:44  <supermop_> 7 original wagons pls locomotive is only 4 tiles
16:08:50  <supermop_> not really 'long'
16:09:05  <supermop_> but if that is the style you want to play with, go nuts
16:09:32  <Samu> i didn't finish that, it would continue up to 13
16:09:41  <Samu> 7 tiles
16:10:08  <supermop_> i feel like a 4 tile long train is pretty short to penalize as too long
16:10:56  <supermop_> i wonder if i should do mop generic train vehicles next
16:11:08  <V453000> my ass is grass
16:11:09  <Samu> ok, i will take a look at the formula
16:11:15  <Samu> wondering where it fails
16:11:31  <supermop_> Grass Ass Train Renewal Set
16:11:32  <Samu> maybe try another divisor value
16:11:44  <Samu> the default is 7
16:11:47  <V453000> GATRS
16:11:48  <V453000> n
16:11:51  <Samu> maybe there's a correlation
16:11:51  <V453000> doesn't work supermop
16:12:02  <supermop_> GAToRS
16:12:16  <Alberth> grats
16:12:17  <V453000> must be something like BEST_TRAIN_SET_4D_64BPP_MAX_ZOOM_BUY_NOW
16:12:31  <supermop_> Train Operations
16:12:45  <Alberth> train maximalis
16:12:55  <supermop_> Trainissimo
16:13:01  <V453000> gay
16:13:09  <Alberth> train omg
16:14:06  <Alberth> but your suggestion could work
16:14:31  <V453000> I already have a name for my set sorry :P
16:15:18  <V453000> just felt like sharing the status of my mental state which may or may not be comparable to vegetal anus
16:15:31  <Alberth> with fewer underscores, I bet :p
16:15:39  <V453000> yeah
16:15:52  <supermop_> grass_ass.exe
16:15:52  <V453000> 4 letter self-recursive acronyms 4_LYFE
16:16:37  <Alberth> hmm, my notion of letter doesn't work for that
16:17:35  <supermop_> lunch time
16:18:22  <Alberth> good way to spend compile time
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16:19:36  <Gustavo6046> ATMunn, you on bro?
16:19:58  <Gustavo6046> seems not.
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16:21:24  <V453000> compile time my ass, I'm rendering for the last 18 hours ._. 8 more hours to go
16:21:32  <V453000> & then again =D
16:22:54  <Gustavo6046> lol
16:23:02  <Gustavo6046> I feel bad for you guys
16:23:56  <V453000> well the bright side is that I don't give a single unit of fecal matter, since I have many things to fix before next render batch :D
16:24:46  <Alberth> conisdered buying a full height 42" rack and fill it with computers? :p
16:24:57  <V453000> nah
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16:25:07  <V453000> it's not that common to have these big tasks
16:25:20  <V453000> I could split it to multiple computers if I really wanted but eh
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16:25:45  <V453000> it's one of the things which I haven't got solved yet in Blender, automatic multi-machine rendering
16:25:45  <Alberth> it'd be faster than than you can prepare for the next round :)
16:25:48  <andythenorth> you need a patreon so you can pay for AWS servers
16:25:53  <V453000> I can give each computer tasks manually but I can't split it automatically yet
16:25:53  <andythenorth> think of the automation you could do
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16:26:21  <V453000> the amount of shit that would be necessary for that currently isn't exactly easy
16:26:51  <Gustavo6046> Now I need to find out all road tiles of a town with at least 1 empty orthogonal neighbors.
16:26:55  <V453000> so since most tasks don't take that long (1080Ti is making sure most of them are pretty fast), it's not really worth making the whole thing more complicated
16:26:58  <Gustavo6046> s/neighbors/neighbor
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16:27:48  <Gustavo6046> To make matters worse, I just can't even find the starting point list of tiles in a town!
16:27:54  <Gustavo6046> Unless if...
16:28:16  <Gustavo6046> if I iterate from the seed tile until the boundaries. Neat!
16:28:34  <Alberth> sounds like the way to go
16:29:52  <V453000> I knew you'd figure it out
16:29:53  <Gustavo6046> Thanks.
16:29:57  <Gustavo6046> :)
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16:34:36  <Alberth> might fail for town build at the slope of a mountain
16:34:45  <Alberth> *built
16:36:21  <ATMunn> Gustavo6046: i am now :D
16:36:27  <Gustavo6046> Hey :D
16:36:57  <ATMunn> quick tip: i use simple_away in znc, so if you /whois me and im away then i probably am not online
16:37:18  <supermop_> patreon seems pretty fair for newgrf making
16:38:05  <supermop_> although i guess for recurring payments you'd start to feel really beholden to make more newgrfs and support old ones forever
16:39:00  <supermop_> if you have a few people paying you are in an odd space where you might not bring in enough to enable you to really focus on making lots of new content, but people are expecting it
16:39:22  <supermop_> maybe you should just sell NUTS t shirts, V453000
16:39:36  <supermop_> someone likes nuts, they can buy a shirt
16:39:55  <Gustavo6046> Guys
16:39:59  <Gustavo6046>
16:40:02  <Gustavo6046> like this?
16:40:02  <V453000> wot :D
16:42:14  <supermop_> i mean depending on the shirt, i might buy out of my love of mollusks regardless of newgrf
16:43:31  <V453000> I think trying to monetize something you do in your free time is really dangerous
16:43:49  <V453000> because now if I want to stop making BRIX, I just do
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16:44:08  <V453000> having to force myself to do this madness would be totally different level of insanity, and would probably mean quality decrease
16:45:10  <Gustavo6046> V45Σ000: sounds bad
16:45:31  <V453000> exactly
16:45:48  <andythenorth> I don’t want customers
16:45:53  <andythenorth> so no attempt to monetise
16:45:57  <V453000> yeah customer is the biggest enemy
16:46:14  <V453000> also I would probably have to make something realistic to get wide enough audience
16:46:24  <andythenorth> if I was 21 and short of money…maybe different
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16:47:14  <Alberth> even then, one should be able to explore things and fail
16:47:32  <supermop_> that's the beauty of a t shirt
16:47:42  <supermop_> you only have customers of the shirt
16:48:00  <V453000> for me the ultimate excuse for myself why to dump hours into openttd stuff is that it allows me to just go wild on experimenting and trying to build a different system, and try to achieve different results than at work
16:48:21  <supermop_> andythenorth: what about if you are 33 and short of money
16:48:23  <V453000> it's super common that for example I recycle scripts for BRIX at work, or at least pieces of them
16:48:31  <andythenorth> supermop_: maybe :P
16:48:37  <andythenorth> any age and short of money
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16:48:50  <V453000> moral of the story: andythenorth is a rich bastard
16:48:56  <V453000> there we go
16:49:07  <supermop_> though im more likely to monetize shapeways stuff or similar
16:49:25  <supermop_> physical item with no ongoing commitment
16:49:28  <andythenorth> on any of those things where you put your salary in and compare it with global salary
16:49:32  <andythenorth> I am a rich bastard
16:49:33  <supermop_> unless it kills someone i guess
16:49:36  <andythenorth> and so are you V453000 :P
16:49:48  <V453000> dam :P
16:49:52  <supermop_> what about where i compare salary to wife's salary
16:49:57  <supermop_> then i am poor
16:50:03  <supermop_> :)
16:50:14  <andythenorth> it’s an interesting place being in the top 5% or 10% (varies by year)
16:50:28  <andythenorth> and then seeing that the 1% are anything up to 500x richer
16:50:41  <V453000> haha
16:51:10  <supermop_> in newyork, being in the 1% (which we are not) nationally, puts you barely at the middle
16:51:21  <andythenorth> it’s a power law probably :P
16:51:25  <V453000> well, they can't buy a newgrf even if they are 1000x richer :P
16:51:38  <supermop_> 1% in US is roughly over 250,000USD a year
16:51:56  <andythenorth> something like
16:51:59  <Gustavo6046>
16:52:06  <andythenorth> 10% have 90%
16:52:10  <andythenorth> long tail
16:52:11  <V453000> supermop_: that would be like 0.1% in czehc republic :)
16:52:37  <supermop_> in NYC, 'nice' apartments are priced such that you really should be earning around M a year to afford them
16:52:52  <V453000> that's pretty fucked up amount
16:53:09  <supermop_> and the remarkably nice places cost between 25-100M to buy
16:53:27  <supermop_> some pretty nice places are 10-20K a month
16:53:48  <V453000> well all those prices seem just from a different universe to me
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16:54:04  <supermop_> our apartment is a bit of a stretch for us at 2700 per month
16:54:31  <andythenorth> wow
16:54:37  <V453000> yeah just holy shit
16:54:37  <andythenorth> our mortgage is less than that
16:54:44  <andythenorth> substantially less, like 60% of that
16:54:56  <andythenorth> 3.5 bedroom house, 2.5 floors
16:55:03  <supermop_> but basically nothing exists in manhattan under 2000 anymore (rent on my first east village apartment in a great location)
16:55:29  <supermop_> andythenorth: this is for 500 square feet, no light, 1.5 bedrooms in chinatown
16:55:32  <V453000> our mortgage is about 600eur per month for a super nice large flat at the edge of prague
16:55:35  <Gustavo6046> Isn't doing game scripts for OpenTTD in Squirrel for pathfinding between towns a very small subset of programming?
16:55:47  <supermop_> same apartmen in nolita or east village would now be over 4000
16:55:55  <V453000> well, manhattan :)
16:56:12  <supermop_> V453000: most of brooklyn is the same now
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16:56:21  <supermop_> as is the close parts of queens
16:56:25  <andythenorth> so in conclusion V453000, supermop would be a rich bastard
16:56:31  <andythenorth> but lives in NYC so has no spare cash
16:56:38  <V453000> :D yes basically
16:56:46  <supermop_> yet i have 200 usd in my bank account right now
16:57:10  <andythenorth> NYC :P
16:57:13  <supermop_> and i owe wife 700 at the moment
16:57:17  <andythenorth> wealth is relative to local costs
16:57:28  <V453000> well if he lived under a bridge for 2 months he could have more than both of us combined? :P
16:57:44  <V453000> think of the possibilities!
16:58:39  <supermop_> andythenorth: problem in america is, leave the expensive city, generally you leave the decent salary too
16:59:01  <andythenorth> such market economy
16:59:04  <supermop_> even if you work in fracking and go out to middle of nowhere north dakota,
16:59:23  <supermop_> a trailer in baken formation town will also be over 4000 a month
16:59:59  <V453000> I guess that's everywhere the same :P
17:00:11  <V453000> in Prague everything is also more expensive
17:00:18  <V453000> compared to the 10 times smaller city I lived in
17:00:51  <V453000> I was renting my flat for 400 usd a month there, just for comparison :P
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17:02:21  <supermop_> V453000: tokyo would be much much cheaper for me to live in
17:02:36  <supermop_> salary would be like 80% but rent maybe 55%
17:02:36  <V453000> yeah also kind of on the opposite side of the shitball :D
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17:04:51  <supermop_> at least i dont live in SF or silicon valley
17:05:03  <supermop_> i would literally be living out of a van out there
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17:05:23  <supermop_> although there are developers that make like 150k that live in their vans there
17:05:55  <Alberth> work 16/24, and sleep for the remaining 8 hours
17:07:00  <supermop_> work 16, drive van to coast to surf the other 8
17:07:17  <supermop_> time shifts to coincide with tides/swells
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17:07:52  <V453000> if I didn't have a family I would probably sleep at the office
17:07:58  <V453000> would give no shits
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17:08:08  <V453000> not because more $, but because why bother
17:08:12  <Gustavo6046> Did you mean... shifts?   (jk)
17:08:16  <Gustavo6046> more like
17:08:25  <Gustavo6046> Did you mean... shifts?
17:08:27  <Gustavo6046> lol
17:08:31  <V453000> wot m8
17:08:31  <supermop_> really i think oz is the only place i've been with good balance of pay, costs, quality of life
17:08:39  <supermop_> still not that cheap but
17:08:56  <supermop_> regular jobs pay well still there
17:09:14  <supermop_> welder or developer can both live in same area
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17:16:48  <supermop_> ok my p-menu sprites are way off
17:17:03  <supermop_> though i did just guess at the offsets
17:17:13  <Samu> supermop_: the divisor has influence, i tried to double the value of it, instead of 7, to 14
17:17:54  <Samu> up to size 8, it's still more efficient to have 1 train rather than 2
17:18:32  <Samu> i wonder about trains of size 13 now
17:19:07  <Samu> if the divisor is directly related to the efficience curve
17:19:57  <Samu> 1/4 + 1/4                                     - £13,560/yr
17:20:05  <Samu> 1/8                                           - £11,300/yr
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17:52:12  <andythenorth> I considered buying a fleet of vans instead of moving office
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17:53:04  <andythenorth> supermop: getting evicted, should I move office in here?
17:53:37  <supermop_> the whole thing is to let?
17:53:48  <supermop_> also how'd you get evicted?
17:53:54  <andythenorth> new landlord
17:54:02  <andythenorth> 3 month notice on the lease
17:54:22  <andythenorth> interiors
17:54:25  <andythenorth> pretty dark in winter
17:54:36  <andythenorth> those photos are…adjusted imho
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17:59:13  <supermop_> i can't fit all trucks on my monitor in buy menu
17:59:35  <supermop_> needs 7 full height columns
18:05:29  <andythenorth> someone try horse
18:05:34  <andythenorth> it might be awful
18:05:47  <andythenorth>
18:06:00  <andythenorth> also translations
18:06:17  <andythenorth> “Small Box Car”, “Medium Box Car”, “Large Box Car"
18:06:28  <andythenorth> can I substring those safely, so that “Box Car” isn’t repeated?
18:06:40  <andythenorth> I’m not sure about order of size modifier in other languages
18:06:58  <andythenorth> or it might be one compound word in something like German
18:11:10  <frosch123> i don't think it is worth the trouble
18:11:27  <frosch123> you cannot resuse the same "small" for other wagons
18:11:57  <frosch123> while the noun is usually not affected by the adjective, the adjective is affected by the noun in languages with genders and cases
18:13:24  <Wolf01> Quak
18:15:36  <Gustavo6046> ok
18:15:38  <Gustavo6046> time to test my AI guys
18:15:39  <Gustavo6046>
18:15:41  <Gustavo6046> wish me luck
18:16:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks
18:16:19  <andythenorth> I wrote them out so far as 3 repetitive strings per wagon type
18:16:36  <andythenorth> my experience of i18n etc is that compound (concatenated) strings are problematic
18:18:36  <andythenorth> good luck Gustavo6046 :P
18:19:16  <Gustavo6046> Thanks :)
18:19:25  <supermop_> 294 trucks
18:19:35  <Gustavo6046> lol
18:19:43  <Gustavo6046> inb4 AI makes a TON of trucks
18:23:21  <Gustavo6046> I forgot to define linkCities >_>
18:23:22  <Gustavo6046> lmao
18:23:23  <supermop_> andythenorth: this is why we need to be able to build trucks and trailers separately:
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18:27:01  <supermop_> this doesn't even include the trams
18:27:37  <andythenorth> supermop_: is that all one grf? :)
18:27:45  <supermop_> of course
18:28:21  <supermop_> x types of truck * y generations of truck * z types of power
18:29:16  <andythenorth> how come hog is so much smaller :)
18:29:23  <supermop_> *w lengths of truck
18:29:24  <andythenorth> I thought I’d over-provided trucks :P
18:29:39  <supermop_> hog has no electric or bi mode trucks
18:29:58  <supermop_> hog also doesn't do rigid/semi/road train
18:30:09  <andythenorth> nope :)
18:30:25  <andythenorth> supermop_: check new Horse :P
18:30:28  <andythenorth> many many wagons
18:30:31  <supermop_> link
18:30:46  <Gustavo6046> Hydrogen buses from 2025 onwards that increase speed, reliability and ratings, but are rather costly!
18:31:29  <andythenorth> supermop_: about 150 wagons :P
18:31:52  <supermop_> if  i could just have 8 cab/tractors, and say 18 trailers, i could provide even more with only 26 items in the purchase list instead of 294
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18:33:06  <supermop_> Gustavo6046: the 4th generation diesels have a callback whereby if you buy them late enough, they do not have visible exhaust pipes nor emit smoke
18:33:25  <supermop_> andythenorth: link?
18:33:30  <supermop_> oh i see it
18:34:48  <andythenorth> supermop_: do they have a limited range because they’ve run out of AdBlue?
18:35:05  <V453000> holy shit supermop_ :)
18:35:38  <Gustavo6046> ooh
18:36:19  <supermop_> andythenorth: i think mczapie tried once to implement some callback in his set where trucks have 100% reliability for a certain range then drop to like 0
18:36:25  <supermop_> to simulate fuel
18:36:35  <andythenorth> also try horse around 2030
18:36:45  <supermop_> so they need to go to depot to 'refuel'
18:36:50  <andythenorth> it’s designed to only make sense with ‘vehicles expire’ on
18:37:28  <supermop_> one sec photos just came in that i need to PS and put on our website before a press package goes out
18:37:50  <andythenorth> sure
18:43:00  <Gustavo6046> If this doesn't compile...
18:43:00  <Gustavo6046>
18:43:09  <Gustavo6046> I don't want to know about the 654 line main!
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18:45:03  <Gustavo6046> Or did I have to reopen the game..?
18:45:09  <Gustavo6046> Let's see
18:45:54  <Gustavo6046> oh.
18:46:28  <Gustavo6046> oh nv
18:46:29  <Gustavo6046> m
18:46:34  <Gustavo6046> Thanks
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19:23:49  <andythenorth> so
19:24:12  <andythenorth> is it ‘small’ = 4/8, ‘medium’ = 6/8 and ‘large’ = 8/8?
19:24:15  <andythenorth> or is it
19:24:50  <andythenorth> ‘small’ = always smallest version, ‘medium’ is the middle if there are 3 variants, ‘large’ is always the larges
19:25:10  <andythenorth> sometimes there is 1 length of wagon, sometimes there are 2, sometimes there are 3
19:37:14  <Eddi|zuHause> small is the smallest and large is the largest
19:40:49  <andythenorth> and if there’s only one?
19:40:52  <andythenorth> drop the size modifier?
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19:43:42  <Samu> supermop_:
19:43:57  <Samu> this is with a different divisor value
19:44:26  <Samu> up to size 10
19:44:34  <Samu> it's better to have 1 train
19:47:19  <Gustavo6046> Why does my AI do nothing? Not even a log??
19:50:41  <Gustavo6046> oh lmao
19:50:42  <Gustavo6046> I paused
19:50:50  <Gustavo6046> -_-
19:52:32  <Samu> there are 2 supermops
19:52:41  <supermop_> usually are
19:52:53  <ST2> Samu: more tabaco man ^^
19:53:10  <supermop_> unless computer at home is asleep
19:53:21  <supermop_> which... seems like it should be?
19:57:05  <Gustavo6046> supermop_, does rand even exist? I've tried rand() and math.rand() and Math.rand()!
19:58:37  <Samu> what does feel better? efficient up to 7/13 or 10/13?
19:59:21  <Gustavo6046> Samu, whichever has the largest efficiency:cost ratio.
19:59:27  <Gustavo6046> (To the left side ;))
19:59:34  <supermop_> Gustavo6046: i have no ide what you are talking about
19:59:45  <Gustavo6046> The rand() function in Squirrel, sorry
19:59:49  <Gustavo6046> I can't access it
19:59:52  <Gustavo6046> "No such index"
19:59:55  <Gustavo6046> Even if I prefix with ::
20:00:49  <Samu> i might adjust the formula to divisor * 2 instead if 10/13 feels better, costs will also decrease overall
20:02:17  <Samu> supermop_: ?
20:02:29  <supermop_> idk
20:02:49  <frosch123> Gustavo6046:
20:02:52  <ST2> Gustavo6046: I got it with random_var = rand() % 4;
20:02:59  <ST2> if about OpenTTD, check ../core/random_func.hpp
20:03:00  <supermop_> my opinion is that costs should increment per wagon independent of loco type or train length
20:03:12  <Gustavo6046> Thanks
20:03:15  <ST2> or something like that
20:03:43  <supermop_> but if you enjoy a play style with a different logic behind the costs, then you should optimize it for what is most fun for you
20:05:03  <Samu> hmm like how, supermop
20:05:52  <Samu> 1 wagon £100 per wagon , 2 wagons £200 per wagon, making it £400, like that?
20:07:24  <Samu> :(
20:08:09  <Gustavo6046> back
20:08:10  <Gustavo6046> Thank you!
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20:09:04  <supermop_> no, i mean, my style would be that every wagon costs 100, no matter what
20:09:29  <supermop_> but if you want a different style, base it on what is most fun for you
20:09:29  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
20:10:41  <Samu> ah, i see, well i had a similar approach with v3 formula, cost per wagon was a fixed value, but it was still based on loco
20:11:05  <Samu> it felt... easy
20:12:22  <andythenorth> so how do I get a 4th generation of these? :)
20:12:32  <andythenorth> can’t use contrasting vertical stripes
20:12:34  <andythenorth> :P
20:15:33  <V453000> looks awesome, but I must say they are kind of too similar imo
20:15:45  <V453000> 4th gen = moar shiny? :P
20:15:50  <V453000> more white?
20:22:13  <andythenorth> dunno
20:22:21  <supermop_> newer = less greeble
20:22:35  <andythenorth> 50% company colour?
20:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make the old generations look actually old...
20:22:48  <supermop_> what eddi said
20:23:02  <supermop_> cc is also good way to look newer
20:23:12  <andythenorth> when 3 of the generations are 1960, 1990 and 2020 that’s hard
20:23:20  <andythenorth> RL train wagons look same for last 50 years
20:23:32  <V453000> :D
20:23:36  <V453000> is why fuck RL :P
20:23:45  <andythenorth> I’m still 50:50 on going to 2020
20:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is actually true
20:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> trains changed a lot from 1960 to 1990
20:24:01  <andythenorth> it causes real problems making gen 5 and 6 look different
20:24:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and for 2020 you can make your creativity run wild
20:25:07  <supermop_> animated OLED advert boards on the sides of tankers
20:25:07  <andythenorth> I prefer the creativity of synthesising 10 RL examples into chibi game art :P
20:25:44  <andythenorth> inventing ‘anything you like’ lacks any constraint
20:26:01  <andythenorth> it’s not a creative problem, it’s just randomised expression
20:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> your problem is that every decade had unique design elements, but you're not using any of them...
20:27:38  <andythenorth> 2020
20:27:43  <andythenorth> 1960
20:27:54  <andythenorth> what’s different? o_O
20:28:01  <andythenorth> 97% identical
20:28:46  <V453000> well at least one is shiny :P
20:28:52  <V453000> gives modern feel, is enough
20:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing says "greener freight" more than diesel fuel?
20:29:20  <andythenorth> it is true
20:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> also, that second image doesn't load
20:30:13  <supermop_> andythenorth: the difference is in graphic design in some degree
20:30:57  <supermop_> my 60s ish and 90s ish box truck trailers are the same shape, but with different design of 2cc stripe
20:31:21  <andythenorth> 1990 image
20:32:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: alternate 1960
20:32:19  <andythenorth> same style
20:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, those look all completely different
20:33:00  <andythenorth> the salient differences being…?
20:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the painting style...
20:33:48  <andythenorth> but in the gestalt?
20:33:55  <andythenorth> same silhouette
20:34:43  <andythenorth> shinier…and high contrast vertical lines :P
20:34:45  <Gustavo6046> Why don't arrays have a filter index? :/
20:34:50  <andythenorth> V453000: ^^
20:35:06  <Gustavo6046> nv
20:35:06  <Gustavo6046> m
20:35:10  <Gustavo6046> Nevermind.
20:35:17  <V453000> shiny as fuck
20:35:19  <V453000> good
20:35:39  <V453000> just paint something with some high brigtness spots and you win
20:36:12  <andythenorth> not sure
20:36:38  <V453000> what are you sure about? :)
20:36:40  <V453000> :P
20:37:33  <andythenorth> frosch couldn’t tell hopper and dump cars apart
20:37:41  <andythenorth> which was useful feedback
20:37:49  <andythenorth> not sure shiny spots on same silhouette will be enough
20:38:44  <V453000> some of them are quite similar yeah
20:39:20  <andythenorth> I can fix those
20:39:29  <V453000> the second medium hopper car is very similar to dumps, basically because of vertical lines and seemingly square silhouette
20:39:32  <andythenorth> more slopey, more grey on hoppers
20:39:41  <andythenorth> use CC inside dump cars, like original TTD sprite
20:39:50  <andythenorth> basically, original TTD sprite, but new
20:40:04  <V453000> maybe make the dump cars have the top 1px margin grayscale?
20:40:17  <andythenorth> nah, they’re like the ore cars in original
20:40:29  <andythenorth> somehow mission has changed to ‘remake original wagons, but refittable’
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20:40:35  <andythenorth> dunno how that happened :P
20:40:51  <V453000> that's fine but changing this doesn't change that
20:41:04  <V453000> the style of the vertical lines is kept, top line won't break that
20:41:19  <andythenorth> adding grey will just confuse with hoppers no?
20:41:23  <V453000> I think it would help the difference between the wagons, top being CC vs bottom being CC
20:41:34  <V453000> top is bright, bottom not
20:41:42  <andythenorth> I think some people only see colour, not where it is
20:41:50  <andythenorth> dunno can try
20:42:07  <V453000> point is fair though
20:42:07  <andythenorth> anyway, tank wagons are bigger problem
20:42:23  <andythenorth> if I can’t get gen 6 tank wagon, then I’m scrapping all gen 6 in horse
20:42:34  <V453000> maybe remove vertical lines from hoppers
20:42:35  <andythenorth> saves drawing like 36 wagons and 6 engines
20:42:38  <V453000> almost entirely
20:42:43  <V453000> :D
20:42:53  <V453000> you can
20:42:56  * andythenorth will find logs where V453000 said add lines :P
20:43:03  <V453000> just make it look clean, elegant and modern
20:43:16  <V453000> andythenorth: sure, they are great, but if you already have them on dumps, it's fine
20:43:19  <andythenorth> hoppers need to be more ‘slopey'
20:43:24  <V453000> if it's noisy then hoppers won't need them
20:44:00  <andythenorth> anyway, tank cars wtf
20:44:16  <V453000> XD
20:44:23  <andythenorth> I can only think to paint gen 6 50% company colour
20:44:35  <andythenorth> like cola wagon in toyland
20:44:45  <andythenorth> which might look shit when the other 50% is recoloured to cargo, but eh
20:45:15  <Wolf01> Meh, left again the scroll cursor detached from the bottom... "why don't they talk so much today?"
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20:46:32  <V453000> can try stripes or something
20:46:39  <V453000> NUTS has diagonal stripes which I can recommend against doing :D
20:47:02  <andythenorth> diagonals always look bad
20:47:05  <andythenorth> even in original
20:47:10  <andythenorth> trying to avoid diagonals :P
20:48:05  <supermop_> step up or step down stripe can work
20:48:30  <Wolf01> And now forgot TF in fast forward while I was reading the chat log
20:48:46  <Samu> hi Wolf01
20:49:00  <Wolf01> Yes, hi
20:50:33  <andythenorth> gen 5, gen 6 with CC
20:50:43  <andythenorth> oil, chemicals, petrol, rubber cargos
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20:53:34  <andythenorth> identical silhouette
20:55:44  <andythenorth> more livery difference:
20:55:46  <supermop_> Wolf01: my purchase menu is too long
20:56:08  <Wolf01> :(
20:56:27  <Wolf01> Is there a valid reason to be so long?
20:56:40  <Wolf01> Could you save space by using refits?
20:57:23  <supermop_> 3 power types * 9 truck types * 3 length types
20:57:42  <supermop_> * number of generations available at any given time
20:57:57  <andythenorth> reduce length types
20:58:07  <andythenorth> says person adding 3 wagon lengths to Horse :(
20:59:19  <supermop_> road train is optional by param
20:59:59  <V453000> maybe have the CC at the top ? :)
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21:00:08  <V453000> this kind of looks like it's water inside :)
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21:02:54  <andythenorth> I think it’s kind of cool
21:02:57  <andythenorth> but not usable
21:04:16  <andythenorth> reminds me of this awesome doom texture
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21:07:40  <V453000> so metal
21:10:15  <andythenorth> who plays past 2010 anyway? :P
21:10:57  <Wolf01> I usually do, it's right the time to upgrade the steam trains to diesel ones
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21:14:34  <V453000> XD
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21:16:51  <Wolf01>
21:17:08  <Wolf01>
21:17:39  <Wolf01> Some of my work for today
21:18:22  <andythenorth> very detailed eh :)
21:18:54  <V453000> that's not a factory
21:19:18  <Wolf01>
21:19:58  <V453000> 'meh'
21:22:14  <andythenorth> vertical stripes then? :P
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21:22:42  <Wolf01> Diamond pattern?
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21:24:29  <andythenorth> maybe :P
21:24:45  <Wolf01> definitely this
21:25:22  <andythenorth> that’s edibles tank car :)
21:25:25  <andythenorth> different
21:25:36  <V453000> not sure andy
21:25:40  <V453000> do something :)
21:25:45  <andythenorth>
21:25:54  <andythenorth> V453000: vertical lines for now I reckon
21:26:07  <andythenorth> whole set is just vertical stripes :P
21:26:11  <andythenorth> all of grf
21:26:29  <andythenorth> one trick pony :P
21:26:47  <V453000> :D one trick horse
21:27:10  <andythenorth> isn’t it
21:29:31  <Wolf01> looks like it's already wrecked
21:29:49  <V453000> horse sat on it
21:30:02  <andythenorth> frosch wanted me to add that
21:30:11  <andythenorth> it’s valid for tropic roster
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21:30:31  <V453000> iz
21:30:41  <Wolf01> Do a easter egg "octan" livery
21:30:50  <V453000> if you can draw it and make it look good, it's interesting for sure
21:34:18  <Wolf01> The quantity of F stuff which comes out when looking for trains or freight stuff is impressive
21:36:42  <supermop_> +1 for octan
21:37:25  <Wolf01> :D
21:42:44  <Samu> i'm so inclined to change from divisor to divisor * 2
21:43:20  <Samu> seems to make more sense
21:43:24  <V453000> Wolf01: probably just personalized search :P
21:43:59  <Samu> anyway, thx for coming up with the efficiency suggestion supermop
21:44:33  <V453000> also, good night
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21:50:39  <Samu> and i've beem saying it for days already, guess it's time for v5
21:50:43  <Samu> been*
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22:03:50  <andythenorth> bye
22:03:53  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:06:04  <Samu> we're on r27927, right?
22:10:56  <Gustavo6046> I'm still trying to make my Dijkstra algorithm fast.
22:11:57  <Gustavo6046> It searches for 7050 tiles...
22:12:14  <Gustavo6046> I should make the radius 170 instead of 300, right?
22:12:27  <Gustavo6046> Yeah, not bad.
22:12:33  <Gustavo6046> 150.
22:13:59  <Samu> i like to test ais, it's just that i'm focused on something else at the moment
22:15:08  <Samu> also, my system nearly died from so much testing
22:15:45  <Samu> it surprises it's still working fine after having so much problems with it last year
22:17:43  <Samu> psu is still doing weird clicky noises for 2 years straigth
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22:36:12  <Samu> v5 is posted
22:36:13  <Samu>
22:36:28  <Samu> for whoever cares lol
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22:43:38  <Samu> meh, i don't like one thing already, grr
22:43:53  <Samu> that divisor range needs to change :(
22:44:01  <Samu> 1-64 to 1-128 or so
22:51:22  <Samu> while i'm at it, why not let it all the way up to 255
22:51:37  <Samu> fits inside UINT8_MAX, right?
22:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Gustavo6046: you know there are pathfinder libs available?
22:59:13  <Gustavo6046> I do
22:59:16  <Gustavo6046> but I want to roll out my own
22:59:27  <Gustavo6046> simple (but not really time efficient) one
22:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, you developed a case of NIH
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23:06:51  <Gustavo6046> Of what?
23:06:59  <Gustavo6046> ._.
23:07:06  <Gustavo6046> I wanted to try one myself
23:07:09  <Gustavo6046> I did one in Java already
23:07:11  <Gustavo6046> it's fun
23:17:19  <Samu> v6 is out :(
23:17:22  <Samu> sorry
23:17:34  <Gustavo6046> :P
23:17:35  <Samu> i really should have tested v5 better
23:21:36  <Samu> divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * 2 * _settings_game.vehicle.max_train_length; // Auto
23:21:51  <Samu> divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * _settings_game.vehicle.train_extra_runcost_divisor; // not Auto
23:21:59  <Samu> mucho better
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