Log for #openttd on 20th October 2017:
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00:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "The new express train from Göteborg to Stockholm is now called 'Trainy McTrainface'"
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00:17:44  <Gustavo6046> Swedish detected.
00:17:50  <Gustavo6046> I'm from Brazil.
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00:21:23  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not swedish, btw.
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05:58:57  <andythenorth> such
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06:54:38  <V453000> andythenorth: I'd say it's good enough for now, although the progression feels weird
06:54:43  <V453000> why black - black - CCstripes - black ?
06:54:49  <V453000> I'd expect black-black-black-CC
06:57:08  <andythenorth> mostly for maximum difference between each generation
06:57:14  <andythenorth> but I had same concern
06:57:22  <andythenorth> more CC => more modern?
06:57:45  <V453000> maybe not just that, but simply the difference
06:57:58  <V453000> you expect the thing to be evolving from one to the other, not from one, through another, and back
06:58:14  <V453000> maybe try to give some of the longer tankers just 2 holes at the top? is detail but eh
06:58:45  <andythenorth> or 4...
06:58:50  <V453000> or 8
06:58:58  <andythenorth> depends how many smaller tankers in gen 6
06:59:03  <andythenorth> smaller ones have 1 or 2 holes
06:59:16  <V453000> :) I can't way to try horse
06:59:29  <andythenorth> you will hate all of itr
06:59:36  <andythenorth> such fuckery
06:59:54  <andythenorth> integer madness
07:00:07  <V453000> that's a lot of fuckery
07:00:28  <V453000> pretty cool fuckery though
07:00:38  <V453000> my shit is going to be in an 8/8 array always, boring :P
07:00:44  <Arveen2> g'mornig
07:00:47  <andythenorth> I considered just randomising lengths :P
07:00:52  <V453000> XD
07:00:59  <V453000> luckily you can't do that, right
07:01:08  <andythenorth> dunno, think I _probably_ could
07:01:14  <andythenorth> somehow
07:01:18  <V453000> really
07:01:27  <V453000> I Think I tried that at some point
07:01:28  <V453000> but eh
07:01:33  <V453000> maybe not correctly
07:02:20  <andythenorth> some hax
07:02:24  <andythenorth> articulated consists or something
07:02:46  <andythenorth> could even measure train length, to force it to always integer or 0.5 of a tile
07:02:47  <V453000> you can't change amount of articulated units on the fly afaik
07:03:01  <V453000> haha that would be super wtf
07:03:08  <andythenorth> totally bonkers
07:03:21  <V453000> or boners if done well :P
07:05:13  <V453000> I was drawing some boxcars today
07:05:32  <V453000> NUTS has auschwitz against boxcars, but in the next set I want to have those as well
07:05:35  <V453000> variety and stuff
07:05:44  <V453000> I'm just figuring out how to show cargo in them
07:05:55  <V453000> open/closed door and being able to see inside through door during loading sounds like yes
07:06:21  <V453000> while needing to keep in mind x1 zoom, some door are really small
07:11:43  * andythenorth has had similar ideas for box car
07:12:01  <andythenorth> 50% alpha :P
07:12:01  <V453000> yeah well honestly there aren't many possibilies
07:12:13  <andythenorth> ban box cars? o_O
07:12:21  <V453000> I'm considering to have wagons see-through and reveal cargo without obstructions during loading, maybe as a parameter
07:12:27  <andythenorth> why would new NUTS need box cars?
07:12:29  <V453000> would be awesome for boxcars and tankers
07:12:52  <V453000> just for variety of wagons, since I have 1 ultimate wagon it makes even more sense to actually make each cargo wagon different
07:13:05  <V453000> because it doesn't inflate purchase menu yet gives variety
07:13:20  <V453000> I'm probably going to be rather lazy and just do the usual bunch but let's see
07:13:31  <andythenorth>
07:13:33  <andythenorth> solved
07:13:43  <V453000> :D well that's kind of halfway nuts
07:14:16  * andythenorth might try recolour box cars to cargo 
07:14:18  <andythenorth> like tank cars
07:14:30  <andythenorth> dunno
07:14:53  <V453000> but imagine you have a boxcar and you can see inside when it's loading
07:14:58  <V453000> not realistic but kind of cool, no?
07:15:11  <V453000> like the front walls would be removed and you see the cargo directly
07:15:28  <V453000> with 3d model I just slice a part off, iz rather cheap
07:16:12  <andythenorth> seems fine
07:16:18  <V453000> and since it's just about defining it in the loading spritegroup, I don't even need extra sprites for parameter
07:16:24  <V453000> so easy to turn off
07:16:34  <andythenorth> just reuse flat cars
07:16:38  <andythenorth> paint walls over
07:16:45  <V453000> I'll do some experimenting, it's not exactly easy in Blender either
07:16:46  <V453000> haha
07:16:55  <V453000> nah the back walls are a part of the bottom layer
07:17:12  * V453000 is going for full retard mode of 4 layer wagons
07:17:42  <V453000> OpenTTD might reject my shit by throwing rendering performance issues at me
07:17:50  <V453000> but someone has to test it (tm)
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07:25:27  <V453000> but yeah, plans, dreams
07:28:26  <andythenorth> :D
07:29:27  <V453000> honestly I have been planning this set for so long that I'm not sure if I'm not just a total dreamy faggot who will never do it
07:29:34  <V453000> is about time I start making it reality
07:30:13  <andythenorth> bbls
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07:30:55  <V453000> gg :)
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08:13:48  <Mahjong> um, I have two oil ships on the edge of the map looping round in circles, thoughts?
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08:15:23  <Mahjong> some weirdness happened.. not sure but i've got them out of their little dance for now
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08:25:51  <ShrewdSpirit> Hello. Why the game's pathfinding for vehicles is so dumb? ._.
08:26:08  <ShrewdSpirit> They can't use the other road I made for them .-.
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08:28:07  <V453000> yeah road vehicles are quite specific
08:28:29  <ShrewdSpirit> Dumb*
08:28:47  <ShrewdSpirit> Isn't there a way to avoid causing such messes? :c
08:29:02  <V453000>
08:29:26  <V453000> this is basically the only thing that you can do with RVs
08:29:41  <V453000> ... it's why trains are so much superior, RVs are just too shallow
08:29:48  <ShrewdSpirit> Oh, let me see
08:30:22  <V453000> basically you build a dual station and when there is a car in 1 station, cars will try to go to the other one
08:30:34  <V453000> so with full enough road they will pretty much perfectly alternate betwen the two
08:30:43  <V453000> making sure the 1 road doesn't get overcrowded
08:30:55  <ShrewdSpirit> Hmm, right
08:31:04  <V453000> there are settings to set the exact amount of pathfinder penalties you get from it but overall the concept tends to work
08:31:23  <V453000> since it's all just "is value high enough", it can be situational if some detours override the other numbers
08:31:28  <ShrewdSpirit> What if it was a looong road connecting multiple kinds of stations?
08:31:49  <V453000> that would work fine, especially if the long road would be similar lengths
08:32:03  <V453000> the more the length difference between them, the more likely it is to break
08:32:22  <V453000> but you can increase the penalty-from-occupied-station to make it work more reliably
08:33:11  <V453000> is it kind of weird to work with numbers? is it kind of just masturbation over RV pathfinder? Yes to both, but that's really the only thing you can do if you want to work with RVs in large scale
08:34:19  <Mahjong> yep... I have a spot where ships get stuck in a whirpool, very confusing i've tried changing a bunch of things
08:34:32  <V453000> well ships are just another level :D
08:34:56  <V453000> there you don't even have this kind of trick
08:35:15  <ShrewdSpirit> I'm much more comfortable with RVs :D Trans make me sick to manage and they get stuck and stuff like that
08:35:23  <Mahjong> a-ha! I don't know exactly why but one ship depot was causing it to freak out
08:35:42  <Mahjong> like it was trying to get through solid land or something I don't know
08:36:07  <V453000> you can masturbate over train pathfinder 1000 times more than over RV pathfinder :P the shit and hacks you can do there is just off the scale
08:36:39  <ShrewdSpirit> The cool thing about trains is that I can increase their length as much as I want :D So cool
08:36:57  <V453000> yes the modularity is super nice
08:37:32  <V453000> the main thing in trains is the almost unlimited amount of complexity you can discover, where RVs really only have a few tricks
08:38:06  <ShrewdSpirit> Exactly
08:38:15  <ShrewdSpirit> And all those features bring more complexity to them
08:38:20  <ShrewdSpirit> They are hard to manage
08:38:30  <ShrewdSpirit> I only use the block signal bc I don't know the rest xD
08:38:57  <V453000> well yeah the signals can be rather unintuitive but once you learn all the things, shit gets real
08:41:49  <ShrewdSpirit> I've seen rail systems that only gods can make
08:42:28  <V453000> I built
08:42:37  <V453000> you can't get much more retarded than that
08:43:37  <Mahjong> V453000, you lunatic
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08:44:59  <ShrewdSpirit_> V453000: Nice
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09:14:04  <V453000> gg
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10:06:08  <Wolf01> Moin
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10:29:07  <Wolf01> Meow
10:34:53  <V453000> anus
10:34:56  <andythenorth> funny wolf noise
10:35:07  <V453000> wold doesn't even know
10:35:11  <V453000> wolf
10:35:12  <andythenorth> V453000 has gone like an alt-right bot :(
10:35:21  <andythenorth> he would have an egg if he was on Twitter
10:35:24  <V453000> alt right?
10:35:37  <Wolf01> "Alt Gr"
10:35:39  <andythenorth> bots that rock up and are rude to liberals
10:35:40  <V453000> ah nice alt arrows switch channels in webirc :D
10:35:46  <andythenorth> and wolves
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10:35:56  <V453000> I'm rude to everyone including myself
10:35:58  <V453000> is fair
10:36:04  <V453000> fuck you all yo
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11:06:05  <Wolf01> Yay, biscuits
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12:15:34  <Samu> hi
12:15:53  <Samu> your forum ads are becoming a bit naughty recently
12:16:14  <Samu> "explore asian women, join now"
12:17:43  <V453000> send pics
12:18:07  <Samu> k
12:20:17  <Samu>
12:20:31  <Samu> so it's japanese, not asian
12:24:49  <Wolf01> Is there a banner there?
12:30:21  <V453000> I meant pics from the detailed exploration
12:30:28  <Wolf01> XDXDXDXD
12:40:39  <peter1139> Samu, the meaning of 'Asian' differs depending on where you are.
12:41:12  <peter1139> Samu, etc
12:41:45  <andythenorth>
12:41:49  <andythenorth> V453000: all won ^
12:41:51  <andythenorth> enough
12:42:27  <V453000> ultimate victory achieved, go collect your japanese bitches now
12:42:34  <andythenorth> V453000 :(
12:42:44  <V453000> :D
12:43:03  <andythenorth> I have to no let my kids in this channel :|
12:44:10  <V453000> do they join this channel?
12:44:12  <Samu> indians are indians
12:44:37  <Samu> asians are chinese, japanese, koreans, that kind of stuff
12:44:50  <andythenorth> V453000: they read it on my username :P
12:45:04  <V453000> nice so sometimes I'm not talking to you actually
12:45:05  <V453000> sick
12:45:30  <andythenorth> they’re not allowed to ttype
12:45:36  <andythenorth> talking to strangers online is banned
12:45:40  <V453000> doesn't mean they don't do it
12:45:48  <andythenorth> yair
12:46:00  <andythenorth> they get upset really quickly
12:46:02  <Samu> the portuguese empire had some part of india as theirs, i guess that's some influence
12:46:06  <andythenorth> lots of hate in YT comments
12:46:09  <andythenorth> etc
12:46:10  <Samu> as to why we call them indians
12:46:37  <andythenorth> internet is basically over
12:46:37  <Samu> our current prime-minister is indian
12:46:40  <andythenorth> drowned in hate
12:46:51  <Samu> not even portuguese
12:47:27  <V453000> :D hm
12:47:28  <Samu> peter1139:
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12:51:18  <Wolf01> andythenorth: still missing octan livery
12:51:30  <andythenorth> Wolf01: needs Octan cargo :P
12:51:38  <Wolf01> Octan cargo is petrol
12:52:04  <Wolf01> They invented "octan" since they broke the partnership with Shell
12:53:26  <Wolf01> also, for who still doesn't have it, it's free for limited time (steam code)
12:59:06  <Samu> Sid Meier's Civilization® III: Complete is provided via Steam key for Windows. For key redemption, a free Steam account is required.
12:59:14  <Samu> i don't have a steam account, :(
12:59:20  <andythenorth> hmm these Horse tank cars remind me of something
12:59:22  <Wolf01> Make one
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12:59:38  <Samu> not really free is it
12:59:50  <Wolf01> Making the account is free
13:00:02  <Wolf01> Also redeeming that game is free
13:00:06  <andythenorth>
13:00:13  <andythenorth>
13:00:15  <Samu> "free, if u do a ton of shit u don't really want to!"
13:00:29  <Wolf01> Lolwhat?
13:00:44  <Wolf01> Nice tank wagon, andythenorth :D
13:00:56  <andythenorth> Horse clearly
13:01:02  <Wolf01> Totally
13:01:19  <Samu> well, windows 10 was also free!
13:01:27  <andythenorth> dear Apple, please can my keyboard work, thanks, love andythenorh
13:01:34  <andythenorth> see
13:01:40  <andythenorth> fucking ’t’ key doesn’ttt work
13:01:45  <andythenorth> down arrow doesn’t work
13:01:50  <andythenorth> space and left-shift don’t work
13:02:00  <Wolf01> Did you try to not eat over it?
13:02:14  <andythenorth> I never had to change my behaviour like that before
13:02:36  <andythenorth> yes there are things stuck to it that are food
13:02:53  <andythenorth> but all previous macs managed actual real life situations
13:02:56  <Wolf01> Also me, if I look carefully I should be able to make a biscuit from what's inside the keyboard... not edible thought
13:12:46  <peter1139> Samu, 1) Steam isn't like that. 2) Everyone has a Steam account.
13:13:19  <andythenorth>
13:14:20  <Samu> heh... everyone has windows
13:14:49  <peter1139> Linux lachesis 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.78-1 i686 GNU/Linux
13:14:51  <peter1139> Yeah
13:14:55  <peter1139> Hmm, that's a bit old :p
13:15:28  <peter1139> oldoldstable
13:15:35  <Samu> they just forgot to say I needed a microsoft account tied up to my windows 10 license/install or so
13:15:47  <Mahjong> VERSION
13:16:05  <Wolf01> Wut?
13:16:51  <Samu> if you reinstall your "free" copy of windows 10... you have to log in to your microsoft account
13:17:02  <Samu> else. 1 month later, you get a nice surprise
13:17:09  <Wolf01> I know, I meant this: [15:15:43] [Mahjong:#openttd VERSION]
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13:17:57  <Samu> be sure to reinstall windows 10 using the same system specs
13:18:07  <Samu> so much free it is...
13:18:27  <Mahjong> "Magic thought waves" this is my favourite
13:18:46  <Mahjong> I wish I could connect to IRC through magic thought waves
13:18:52  <Wolf01> Samu: it's not anymore like that, you only need to reactivare it manually if you change hardware
13:20:19  <peter1139> Samu, anyway, don't you use adblockers? :p
13:20:25  <Samu> nop
13:20:34  <peter1139> ublock origin
13:20:59  <peter1139> Oh wait, you are using Edge? LOLOL
13:21:04  <peter1139> What a weirdo.
13:21:20  <Samu> well, it works
13:21:23  <Samu> that's all that matters
13:21:52  <Wolf01> I use edge with ublock origin
13:22:01  <ST2> yup, it worked perfectly fine to get Firefox and Opera xD
13:23:26  <Wolf01> It works fine, at least I can sync passwords and bookmarks with my phone
13:25:09  <Flygon> I'm still not sure how the heck I haven't had to use a Microsoft Account on my Windows 10 copy.
13:25:36  <Flygon> Then again, I've somehow torn through the install enough that it's more a facsimile of 7.
13:25:48  <Flygon> Problem - It still has the bloody ribbon interface for Explorer.
13:25:54  <Flygon> And it's a bloody nightmare.
13:26:13  <Wolf01> You don't need to use a hotmail/live email to create an account, you can use any email now
13:26:47  <Flygon> You've been able to use custom emails for MS accounts since at least 2003.
13:27:04  <Flygon> > I wonder how I managed to do that
13:30:28  <Flygon> (Honestly - It was by complete accident)
13:31:25  <Wolf01> BTW, I like the ribbon, and you can doubleclick to hide it
13:31:49  <Wolf01> Still opens a ribbon when you select a menu item
13:31:51  <Flygon> But can it bring back classic explorer menu? D:
13:32:03  <Wolf01> You mean the vertical one?
13:32:26  <Flygon> Yeah.
13:32:37  <Wolf01> No, that's long dead
13:32:41  <Flygon> Shit.
13:32:51  <Wolf01> Use a different file explorer
13:32:52  <Flygon> Looks like I'm beating dead life out of 7 where possible.
13:33:13  <Flygon> (The 7 drivers supplied for the laptop, erm, didn't work >_>)
13:33:49  <Wolf01> I had less problems to make the tablet work with win 10 than win 8, and it was born with 7
13:34:16  <Wolf01> With win 10 I didn't even had to install the utilities, it downloaded everything on its own
13:34:36  <Flygon> (Soo it's stuck on 10, thanks to the range of Windows-only apps I'm stuck on.  - I know about the whole 'Go use Linux and WINE' thing, but... I'm both lazy and confronted with software-driver interaction concerns. :V)
13:34:46  <Flygon> (Emphasis on the lazy)
13:35:19  <Flygon> (So instead I'm so lazy I beat Windows 10 into submission knowing it's futile because a future update's gonna sh... shoot all over my work. :V)
13:36:47  <Flygon> Ehh...
13:36:53  <Flygon> I'm a very particular man, I'll put it that way.
13:37:00  <Flygon> I have zero idea what I'm going to do past 2020.
13:37:14  <Flygon> I seriously don't know. It'll be the date software finally stops actually supporting 7.
13:37:29  <Flygon> Regardless of if it really needs to stop supporting it.
13:38:00  <Flygon> (Never mind people will find ways to cheese their way into the ultra-long term support updates - XP style :V)
13:39:08  <Flygon> Seems those XP updates run out 2019
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13:40:55  <Samu> have you considered inflation: Off by default on future openttds?
13:41:21  <andythenorth> inflation is such crap
13:41:47  <supermop_> seems like someone could write a less dumb inflation
13:42:02  <supermop_> even a meaningless x% across the board
13:42:19  <Wolf01> Why I feel like targeted every time you write "someone"?
13:42:41  <supermop_> just as an option for people who feel like they absolutely need it
13:42:52  <supermop_> Wolf01: do you have a highlight on 'someone'?
13:43:15  <Wolf01> Nope, but my brain highlights that word
13:43:23  <Flygon> (Anyway, g'night!)
13:43:32  <Wolf01> Nn
13:43:42  <__ln__> someone's a bit paranoid (not saying who)
13:43:56  <Wolf01> See, that happened again
13:44:16  <Wolf01> <- ROFL "bug"
13:45:48  <supermop_> respond with 'cannot reproduce'
13:45:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth should be more polite than me to reply :P
13:46:02  <supermop_> just to see what happens
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13:50:36  <Wolf01> And we have the first W10:FCU bug!
13:50:53  <Wolf01> I'm waiting to update so I can try to reproduce it
13:51:40  <Wolf01> <- isn't a similar behavior of the OS X one?
13:55:57  <Samu> on settings.ini file, how do I make a setting become disabled if the value of another setting is also disabled?
13:56:18  <Wolf01> Non on settings.ini
13:56:21  <Wolf01> *Not
13:56:35  <Wolf01> You need to check it on the UI when you change the values
13:56:40  <Samu> so, on settings_gui.cpp?
13:57:09  <Wolf01> Yes
13:57:24  <Wolf01> Look how other settings do it
13:57:36  <Samu> i don't think there's any other setting that do it
13:59:38  <Samu> Enable extra running costs for trains: On / Off
13:59:59  <Samu> Extra running costs for trains divisor: Auto, 1-255
14:00:03  <peter1139> Enable features that should be provided by NewGRF: No / Off
14:00:43  <Samu> the 2nd setting should have the buttons grayed out if the 1st setting is off
14:00:50  <Wolf01> No / Off / Auto (never)
14:04:06  <andythenorth> peter1139: I already suggested that Samu reimplement original trains in a grf :)
14:04:16  <andythenorth> but samu likes projects :)
14:04:52  <andythenorth> it’s always good having an extensible content framework, but refusing to use it :)
14:05:01  <Wolf01> I still think we should try to strip everything from the core game and reimplement as paid DLC
14:05:25  <Samu> i don't know how to use grfs
14:06:31  <Samu> code*
14:07:28  <Samu> it seems limited
14:07:46  <Samu> controlled
14:07:55  <Wolf01> Multiplayer safe
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14:13:50  <supermop_> Samu: its pretty easy
14:19:39  <supermop_> i should make a double headed industrial tram
14:20:04  <supermop_> although if yu want to be carrying 300t of coal really should build a train
14:20:12  <Samu> can u make a newgrf for me, involving wagons?
14:22:56  <Samu> i was looking for a newgrf with wagons/engines without any running cost specified, kinda like nars. it has some obscure features like reduced running costs
14:23:03  <Samu> different sizes
14:23:23  <Samu> i don't really know what other features can affect running costs
14:23:29  <Samu> but i wanted to explore them
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14:24:01  <Samu> the problem with nars is that... everything has a cost
14:24:07  <Samu> a running cost, that is
14:24:39  <Samu> and there's that misterious shift value which i dunno what it is
14:24:48  <Samu> can't decipher nars entirely
14:27:09  <supermop_> are all the australians gone?
14:27:21  <supermop_> is a stevedore or longshoreman a tradie?
14:27:56  <supermop_> i wonder what they'd call them, dockie? crane-ie?
14:28:14  <supermop_> need a melb-ish name for a harbor tram
14:30:43  <Samu> melbish tram
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14:41:26  <Wolf01> o/
14:41:43  <Alberth> hi hi
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15:17:01  <supermop_> hmm need a germanish name for an 1860-ish steam dummy
15:18:05  <supermop_> Alberth: any ideas for cute tiny diesel locomotive nickname?
15:18:29  <Gustavo6046> Lumberchap
15:18:32  <Gustavo6046> ?
15:18:56  <Alberth> I was thinking about the steam thingie,  something "Dampf"
15:19:09  <Alberth> (ie steam)
15:19:40  <Alberth> Bert and Erny perhaps?
15:19:54  <Alberth> LittleBert and SmallErny
15:22:09  <supermop_> because it is for stret running, i was thinking about Strasse something
15:22:18  <supermop_> but that sounds too much like a regular tram
15:22:48  <Alberth> what's the "dummy" thing?
15:24:29  <supermop_>
15:24:33  <supermop_> tram engine
15:24:44  <supermop_> that is made to look like a tram car
15:25:04  <supermop_> Dampfstraßenbahn
15:25:09  <supermop_> is too literal
15:25:19  <Alberth> ah, steam machine in disguise
15:25:26  <Alberth> 007dampf
15:26:32  <supermop_> ha
15:28:01  <Alberth> passengercar007
15:35:28  <supermop_> what is a stevedore/dockworker in german
15:35:29  <supermop_> ?
15:37:05  <peter1139> What is it in Egnlish? :p
15:37:23  <Samu> ST2, using server 7 settings and my patch:
15:37:50  <Samu> trucks vs trains
15:38:31  <Samu> started in 1935, and made the last adjustments in 1939, then let 1940 unchanged
15:39:44  <Samu> trains lost 2 wagons in 1939, trucks lost 2 trucks in 1939
15:40:03  <Samu> 2 wagons ,each, so 4 wagons
15:40:48  <Samu> i did it to optimize coal mine output with the vehicles
15:41:08  <Samu> i think i achieved some degree of parity
15:41:09  <supermop_> peter1139: stevedore?
15:41:15  <Samu> i like what i see
15:42:39  <Samu> however... it's still cheaper to construct a very long train than have a decent truck going very far
15:43:09  <Samu> decent truck route*
15:43:46  <peter1139> supermop_, never heard the term before
15:44:07  <supermop_> guy who works at a dock and puts stuff on a boat
15:44:24  <peter1139> Hmm, phonetic corruption of estivador
15:44:58  <supermop_> apparently in the UK it is only the foreman or master
15:45:19  <supermop_> the regular guys are dockers?
15:45:51  <supermop_> in oz it is 'wharfie' which is cute enough to be a tram name
15:46:27  <Samu> your server 7 is still all about making a long route with a very big train, i ought to test how much my running costs cannibalize the profits
15:46:45  <Alberth>   apparently, never heard of the term before
15:48:25  <Alberth> Samu: wouldn't it be easier to add running costs to the wagons?
15:49:46  <supermop_> ok newly compiled now to test again
15:50:03  <supermop_> hopefully fixed the remaining sprite issues
15:50:03  <Samu> how exactly?
15:52:06  <Samu> a fixed value?
15:52:47  <Samu> i wanted to penalize long trains, but not much on short trains
15:54:24  <Samu> i tried using fixed values for wagons and it didn't feel right
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15:55:26  <Samu> it was either too much for short trains, or too little for long trains, and trying to come up with a value that could suit both wasn't cutting it. I like the exponential cost increase approach more
15:56:13  <Alberth> ah, right, I read the first post to understand the problem you're solving, and may have missed that
15:56:25  <Wolf01> I think you should also change airplanes, a lot of little airplanes for 2-20 people should be better than one airbus a380 or boeing 747
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15:56:53  <Samu> i'm not sure how to go about aircraft yet
15:57:46  <Samu> the biggest impact on their profits was with the profit patch that I did which ended penalizing horizontal/vertical routings
15:57:48  <Alberth> but an a380 is ideal, you can have a living room for each passenger!
15:58:02  <Samu> so, every vehicle was impacted
15:58:13  <Samu> aircraft impact was more pronounced however
15:58:41  <Wolf01> But a lot of pax with only one airplane mean a lot of earnings
15:59:31  <Alberth> hmm, maybe make the passengers less patient in waiting for the ride?
16:00:21  <Alberth> would be nice if they could leave the aircraft while it's loading :p
16:01:32  <Samu> i've also done something else, can't remember, let me find brb
16:02:05  <Samu> ah
16:02:06  <Samu> increased aircraft breakdown rate based on travelled tiles v3 r27795
16:02:41  <Samu> so, after travelling x tiles, the aircraft will breakdown more quickly
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16:03:48  <Alberth> easily defeated with "disable breakdowns" that most players use :)
16:04:00  <Samu> :/
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16:06:19  <Wolf01> Running cost depends on travel lenght
16:07:18  <Alberth> for deep-space probes, sure, but regular buses/trains?
16:07:19  <Wolf01> Multiplied by loaded pax, divided by livery colour
16:08:03  <Alberth> ha, make ugly colors more cheap :p
16:08:34  <Wolf01> Also you should know how many engines there are and base the running cost for each engine
16:10:25  <Samu> i've always thought of breakdowns being necessary for aircraft
16:10:50  <Samu> there are some models that appear to have better reliability than others
16:10:58  <Samu> as a differentiator
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16:11:06  <Samu> english*
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16:13:01  <Samu> a model with big capacity but low reliability vs a model with lower capacity but with high reliability
16:13:19  <andythenorth> reliability is randomised per game afaik
16:13:22  <Samu> with breakdowns disabled... the big capacity model always wins
16:14:03  <supermop_> andythenorth: apt thing made me laugh
16:14:16  <andythenorth> I need 3 more names :P
16:14:45  <supermop_> also the 70s ish regular passenger car
16:15:00  <supermop_> has 2cc stripe like a mk3 at top in /
16:15:04  <supermop_> but not in _
16:15:20  <andythenorth> only the – views are drawn at all :)
16:15:23  <andythenorth> the rest is nonsense
16:15:28  <supermop_> i see
16:15:35  <andythenorth> there is a high deletion rate
16:15:44  <andythenorth> so no point drawing the missing angles until set is designed
16:15:46  <supermop_> i could have used a little bear too
16:16:03  <andythenorth> shoebox doesn’t fit?
16:16:07  <andythenorth> same power, faster
16:16:17  <supermop_> seemed like overkill
16:16:55  <andythenorth> what would have made it just kill?
16:17:26  <Gustavo6046> My favorite OST is Modern Motion.
16:19:26  <supermop_> andythenorth: looking tiny and weak
16:19:47  <supermop_> looks wrong to have what looks like a mainline loco pulling 2-3 cars
16:19:49  <andythenorth> I could split ‘tiny freight’ and ‘tiny pax'
16:20:01  <andythenorth> and even go to 4/8
16:20:05  <andythenorth> dunno
16:20:06  <supermop_> half a chinook
16:20:19  <supermop_> its all fin tho
16:20:28  <supermop_> i wouldn't worry about that part
16:21:10  <andythenorth> there’s a 4/8 sprite test here
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18:00:54  <Samu> should i make a patch pack? seems to be the rule
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18:07:23  <andythenorth> hola
18:07:33  <frosch123> annulated tank cars are win :)
18:08:36  <andythenorth> wondering if all wagons should use that style :P
18:08:43  <andythenorth> but then….all look same
18:22:53  <andythenorth> stripes for flat cars? o_O
18:23:29  <Samu> @calc 2489885/2204711
18:23:29  <DorpsGek> Samu: 1.12934756528
18:24:13  <Samu> a ~13% nerf
18:24:18  <Samu> in train profits
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18:25:44  <frosch123> <- does that count as striped?
18:26:22  <frosch123> <- what is transported with that?
18:27:02  <supermop_> rolls of steel sheet
18:27:20  <supermop_> the blue one is nice looking frosch123
18:27:38  <Samu> @calc (88034-10417) / (88034-3443)
18:27:38  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.917556241208
18:27:48  <Samu> meh, the other way
18:28:04  <Samu> calc (88034-3443) / (88034-10417)
18:28:17  <Samu> @calc (88034-3443) / (88034-10417)
18:28:17  <DorpsGek> Samu: 1.08985145007
18:28:22  <andythenorth> blue one is stake wagon
18:28:32  * andythenorth has that problem to solve already :)
18:30:05  <andythenorth> could do deck greeble
18:30:24  <andythenorth> I wanted a consistent deck appearance, but then all look same so eh
18:30:37  <Samu>  a ~9% nerf in "income - running cost" is equivalent to a ~13% in company value
18:30:45  <Samu> only tested 1 train though
18:30:50  <Samu> over the course of 40 years
18:31:14  <andythenorth> Samu: you are starving yourself by not learning NML :P
18:31:35  <andythenorth> newgrf has many many ways to adjust these parameters
18:32:24  <andythenorth> at least 3 styles of ‘flat’ wagon here
18:33:18  <andythenorth> interesting load
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18:45:54  <supermop_> andythenorth:  always go for more greeb
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19:13:32  <supermop_> i use stacks to randomly stick greeble on roofs of trams
19:15:23  <Gustavo6046> Actually no, I'm not kidding.
19:15:37  <Gustavo6046> Thinking I were was really what I wanted to induct.
19:15:39  <Gustavo6046> Seems I did it.
19:15:52  <Gustavo6046> Err~, wrong channel...
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19:50:33  <Samu> this is hell
19:51:29  <andythenorth> it’s just nfo
19:51:53  <peter1139> Mmm NFO
19:52:20  <Samu> little-endian byte order... i call it, hell-order
19:52:21  <Samu> chaos
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20:01:43  <Samu> 38 00 in little-endian byte order
20:02:04  <Samu> means 0038, 38, is this hexadecimal?
20:02:37  <Samu> 38 in hex, 56 in decimal?
20:03:58  <supermop_> don't remember. i purged all nfo and hex from my brain
20:04:25  <Gustavo6046> 38 in hex is the same as 3 * 16 + 8 in decimal
20:04:29  <Gustavo6046> so 48 + 8
20:04:31  <Gustavo6046>  = 56
20:05:04  <Gustavo6046> if 38 were decimal it'd be 3 * 10 + 8 in decimal
20:05:13  <Gustavo6046> just like if*
20:06:22  <Samu> so i got the speed of this engine, wiki says: Speed in mph*1.6 (see below)
20:06:35  <Samu> 56 in decimal, and it's 56 km/h in the game
20:06:44  <Samu> why complicate!
20:06:53  <supermop_> ask chris sawyer
20:06:55  <Samu> why not just say speed in km/h
20:07:16  <supermop_> british man thinks of british trains as going in mph
20:09:56  <Samu> @calc 56/1.6
20:09:56  <DorpsGek> Samu: 35
20:09:59  <Samu> :(
20:10:32  <Samu> @calc 35*1.6
20:10:32  <DorpsGek> Samu: 56
20:10:56  <Samu> well... technically correct, just complicated for no reason at all
20:12:38  <andythenorth> there will be a reason
20:13:02  <andythenorth> @calc 128*1.6
20:13:02  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 204.8
20:13:40  <andythenorth> @calc 255*1.6
20:13:40  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 408
20:13:46  <andythenorth> might be that
20:13:59  <andythenorth> Lev4 chimera is 400mph
20:14:05  * andythenorth might be barking up wrong tree though
20:29:42  <supermop_>
20:44:14  <supermop_> i am sure there is a lot wrong that i can't see from spending so much time looking at,
20:44:40  <supermop_> if anyone wants to look for messed up sprites, or has suggestions for running costs/capacities etc
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20:44:52  <supermop_> happy to hear feedback
20:44:55  <andythenorth> :)
20:46:48  <supermop_> andythenorth: i think the thing that makes me feel weird about using the shoebox for branchline freight is the panto
20:47:09  <andythenorth> what if it was lowered on diesel?
20:47:26  <supermop_> feels somehow wrong to use bimode loco on line that is only ever un-wired
20:47:31  <supermop_> you know what i mean
20:47:50  <supermop_> thats why it feels overkill or gratuitous
20:48:10  <supermop_> bimode seems special, and feels weird to use something special
20:48:24  <supermop_> for mundane turns
20:49:11  <supermop_> why in horse 1 i was shy about replacing gridiron with cyclops - felt too fancy for freight
20:50:01  <andythenorth> maybe needs a small freight engine
20:50:02  <andythenorth> dunno
20:50:07  <supermop_> "in which supermop talks to his therapist at length about vehicle selection in OpenTTD"
20:51:23  <andythenorth> covered hoppers now much less good thank tank cars :P
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20:51:48  <andythenorth> roof hatches are horrible
20:52:36  <supermop_> stand-alone little bear add on grf
20:52:50  <andythenorth> add horse 1
20:52:54  <andythenorth> different grfids
20:53:05  <supermop_> haha
20:53:08  <supermop_> chinook race
20:54:04  <supermop_> shoebox is good captures spirit of the southern bimodes
20:54:14  <supermop_> gestaltwise
20:54:59  <supermop_> why should i buy stake car over flat car?
20:55:35  <supermop_> other than the cool looking stakes
20:57:35  <supermop_> will the flats get stakes when hauling logs?
20:58:45  <andythenorth> nah
20:59:03  <andythenorth> probably not anyway
20:59:06  <supermop_> i put 2 flats on the back of the rake just to mix it up
20:59:17  <andythenorth> stake car = original steel car
20:59:29  <andythenorth> oops, no original wood car
20:59:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: make the early hoppers not covered by metal, but rather tarpaulins
20:59:44  <andythenorth> maybe
20:59:53  <andythenorth> I could just draw them ‘not rubbish’ too :)
20:59:56  <frosch123> possbily also more similar to open wagons
21:00:04  <supermop_> but the 5t dry tare weight savings vs 14t capacity difference doesn't make stake attractive
21:00:22  <andythenorth> supermop_: sounds like a bug, all capacities should be levelled :)
21:00:24  <supermop_> andythenorth: what frosch123 said ^ more tarps
21:00:47  <supermop_> 120km medium stake is 40t, flat car is 54
21:01:03  <supermop_> flat is slightly longer
21:01:21  <supermop_> but not 35% longer
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21:01:49  <supermop_> maybe it is 35% didn't count px
21:01:56  <andythenorth> seems like a bug
21:02:24  <supermop_> i still bought mostly stake cars bc looks better with the logs
21:10:54  <Samu> 3>..\src\window.cpp(1685): warning C4146: unary minus operator applied to unsigned type, result still unsigned
21:13:01  <Samu> int offset_x = rtl ? -NWidgetLeaf::closebox_dimension.width : NWidgetLeaf::closebox_dimension.width;
21:13:12  <Samu> that's the line
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21:25:30  <supermop_> andythenorth: there's 4 stake cars followed by 2 flats in /
21:25:54  <andythenorth> $someone should draw those other views :)
21:31:50  <V453000> andythenorth: tanks winning
21:32:12  <andythenorth> scrap other types
21:32:16  <andythenorth> liquid cargos only
21:32:18  <andythenorth> new FIRS
21:32:47  <andythenorth> water, milk, beer, wine, cola, petrol, chemicals, sulphur, kaolin, oil, edible oil, rubber
21:33:12  <V453000> :D
21:33:22  <frosch123> banana juice
21:34:06  <andythenorth> blood
21:34:06  <frosch123> but you will hit the industry input cargo type limit for cocktails
21:34:14  <andythenorth> fair
21:34:31  <frosch123> though a shaker-industry could we animated
21:37:45  <andythenorth> tomorrow, flat cars :P
21:37:49  <andythenorth> "something must be done”
21:38:07  <frosch123> multi-level flat cars? :p
21:38:22  <andythenorth> sounds like a car transporter :P
21:38:32  <andythenorth> flat cars with vertical stripes? :P
21:39:12  <frosch123> stripes may break the flat-ness impression
21:40:13  <andythenorth> what if I scrapped flatbeds?
21:40:20  <andythenorth> keep the stake cars?
21:40:37  <Gustavo6046> My pathfinder takes 8 mins for a single source outlet... most cities have like 20 of these! :/
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21:41:28  <Gustavo6046> So yeah, 2 + 2/3 hours...
22:03:20  <andythenorth> bed
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22:06:12  <Gustavo6046> ok ._.
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