Log for #openttd on 21st October 2017:
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02:52:06  <supermop> gotta say, my fake articulated z class in fake ptv livery is pretty sharp
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03:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you're so fake...
03:53:21  <supermop> late (or early) in germany
03:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat
03:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> my work cycle and my sleep cycle don't seem to align
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04:43:54  <Afdal> Quick question: where do I stick my original TTD graphics again?
04:46:57  <Afdal> oh it's just .openttd/baseset isn't it
04:47:01  <Afdal> but which files...
04:47:16  <Afdal> nvm found the readme :)
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06:56:37  <andythenorth> o/
07:50:28  <Alberth> o/
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09:29:54  <andythenorth>
09:30:17  <andythenorth> do the two types look different?
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09:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat, but what's the gameplay (or real world) difference between them?
09:39:53  <andythenorth> irrelevant
09:40:02  <andythenorth> the problem is that frosch couldn’t tell one from the other
09:40:28  <andythenorth> hopefully that’s fixed now
09:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i think that is exactly relevant. because if the players don't have the mindset that they're different things, no amount of pixels will make them able to distinguish them
09:41:22  <andythenorth> interesting point
09:41:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like a japanese person trying to distinguish R from L
09:41:50  <andythenorth> the difference is still irrelevant, because they’re functionally identical
09:42:28  <andythenorth> if one has the kind of brain that doesn’t see the visual stuff as significant
09:42:37  <andythenorth> then the difference will never be grokked
09:43:09  <andythenorth> it will just be a confusing choice
09:44:45  * andythenorth can’t think of any solution for that, except to take the NUTS approach
09:45:03  <andythenorth> all roads seem to lead to copying NUTS
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10:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could think of a few solutions... one would be adding "flavour text" that has describes real-world differences which cannot very well be mapped to gameplay features
10:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the other would be adding some gameplay difference like one getting the disadvantage of not being able to load some cargos, but having some other advantage like load speed
10:07:22  <andythenorth> that already applies in both these cases
10:07:44  <andythenorth> (the speed advantage and limited cargos vs. other wagon types)
10:08:02  <andythenorth> the extra text…dunno, seems quite arbitrary
10:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, flavour text would have to be consistend over all vehicles
10:09:11  <andythenorth> the only purpose of two types here is faster train identification
10:09:25  <andythenorth> but for people who can’t read visual cues, that’s no advantage
10:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and the other thing i don't mean wrt other wagon types, but specifically these two wagon types
10:10:17  <andythenorth> if this is confusing, then one type should be deleted
10:12:52  <andythenorth> similar issue, stake wagon / flat wagon split might not be justifiable
10:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i would exchange flat wagon for a container wagon, and have it available for free autorefit
10:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (but overall worse performance)
10:16:47  <andythenorth> can a flat wagon carry logs without stakes / poles?
10:17:01  <andythenorth> if not, then what I actually have is two stake wagons :x
10:17:19  <V453000> if both wagons are equal, I would use both. They are ones of the best drawn wagons andy. SF level
10:18:30  <V453000> even better I would say
10:19:49  <andythenorth> stake wagons
10:19:56  <andythenorth> flat wagons
10:20:00  <andythenorth> according to the internet :P
10:23:16  <V453000> :)
10:26:17  <andythenorth> fuck it
10:26:21  <andythenorth> they both get stakes :P
10:32:27  <andythenorth> “bolster wagon” is probably much too UK-specific eh?
10:32:34  <andythenorth> instead of “flat wagon"
10:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that word means nothing to me
10:36:17  <andythenorth> it’s esoteric in the UK
10:36:34  <andythenorth> maybe 1 in 500 people would recognise it
10:38:02  <V453000> 666
10:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, i have seen the word "bolster" (without wagon context) being used, but even then i have no real clue what it means
10:38:56  <andythenorth> a pillow is a bolster
10:38:59  <andythenorth> lifts your head up
10:39:08  <andythenorth> took me years to learn that meaning
10:39:53  <andythenorth> bolster on vehicles is a block that something else rests on
10:45:08  <V453000> these wagons make me want to abandon 32bpp andy
10:45:26  <V453000> really good
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11:05:20  <Wolf01> Moin
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11:34:42  <andythenorth> V453000: also really simple workflow :)
11:34:42  <andythenorth> :P
11:34:45  <andythenorth> just draw
11:34:55  <andythenorth> also automate all cargos :P
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12:07:22  <V453000> :)
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12:10:52  <andythenorth>
12:10:57  <andythenorth> previous
12:11:22  <Wolf01> Yes, better
12:11:44  <andythenorth> dunno about stake cars
12:11:48  <andythenorth> probably will
12:12:29  <Wolf01> Still not sure about having 3 generations of the same car which looks almost the same
12:13:21  <andythenorth> me neither
12:13:29  <andythenorth> is flaw of set design
12:16:20  <Wolf01> Not possible with year based refits?
12:30:44  <supermop> andythenorth: expired the old wagons promptly?
12:31:35  <Wolf01> And raise the running costs based on age so you can't autorenew and they cost really much to maintain and you are forced to switch to a new generation
12:31:56  <supermop> back to timetabling a 201kmh express and a 160kmh freight through the same stretch of track on a clock face schedule
12:32:24  <Wolf01> Good luck
12:32:59  <supermop> Wolf01 I feel like other than drawing tram liveries, this is the one thing in the game that really engages me
12:33:37  <Wolf01> I think I'll start to use timetables only when the autoseparation patch will be added to trunk
12:33:57  <Wolf01> JGR-pp is too sluggish on my system :(
12:35:02  <Wolf01> We really need to start use those strange things called graphics cards
12:36:07  <supermop> Wolf01:
12:37:05  <supermop> passengers go /--\_/
12:38:41  <Wolf01> Well done junctions
12:40:13  <supermop> flat junctions make me happy
12:40:37  <Wolf01> I only do flat junctions, trying to be realistic too
12:40:38  <supermop> the depot bothers me but I just needed to build another train there quickly
12:41:01  <Wolf01> I do flying junctions only when I have a lot of space and different levels
12:41:53  <supermop> those dirt roads with sidewalks need to be upgraded
12:42:09  <Wolf01> :D
12:42:37  <Wolf01> NRT need to be upgraded
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12:53:48  <supermop> hmm 10 or 15 day tempo on schedules?
12:54:03  <supermop> guess 15 is easier
12:57:59  <supermop> passenger trains 15 apart will pass through the flat junction in opposite directions close to the same time
12:59:41  <supermop> andythenorth: in horse 1 I can't flip the cyclops to top and tail
13:00:05  <supermop> want to make a little fake hst
13:01:49  <oskari89>
13:03:17  <oskari89> Thumbs up for that feature (shunting), someone is still working on that
13:14:58  <andythenorth> supermop: can’t flip articulated vehicles
13:15:03  <andythenorth> everything in horse 1 is articulated
13:15:07  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURES
13:15:12  <supermop> haha why
13:15:16  <supermop> its 8/8
13:15:29  <andythenorth> yes
13:15:43  <andythenorth> but every vehicle is 3 articulated parts
13:15:51  <andythenorth> didn’t have to be, but it was
13:16:51  <andythenorth> regrettable
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13:26:55  <Wolf01> Well, got to go, bye
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13:36:24  <supermop> no feedback on latest version
13:36:29  <supermop> must be perfect
13:37:34  <andythenorth> yup
13:37:47  <andythenorth> no feedback when winning :)
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14:10:20  <frosch123> hmm, if i had drawn a stake van, there would be a stake at the left/right border of the wagon
14:10:47  <frosch123> maybe use the stake position to add variation to the generations?
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14:12:13  <andythenorth> I did :)
14:12:17  <andythenorth> some have more than others
14:12:27  <andythenorth> although that conflicts with other patterns :P
14:13:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: is there anything I can do to make BGT slightly close to real?
14:13:36  * andythenorth getting bored of trains
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14:20:58  <andythenorth> this is a good fake
14:21:18  <andythenorth> that’s a lot of work gone into animating a fake game
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14:34:00  <peter1139> FAKE NEWS
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14:45:31  <andythenorth> but how do you have a train without an engine? :O
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14:54:37  <andythenorth> supermop: what colour to do stake cars then?
14:54:42  <andythenorth> original TTD one is grey
14:54:46  <supermop> stakes are cc
14:56:25  <andythenorth> I should base it on bubble truck in toyland
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15:04:54  <andythenorth> irl
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15:09:41  <peter1139> "IRL"
15:09:44  <peter1139> Looks like a model to me :p
15:10:05  <andythenorth> well played
15:10:25  <andythenorth> mixed 1cc / 2cc? o_O
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15:35:19  <Wolf01> Back
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16:02:12  <Samu> hi all
16:04:47  <Samu> ST2: i've been testing kirby paul vs ginzu vs chaney jubilee in single and double track, to see which is the best start, there are some surprises
16:05:18  <Samu> for single track, it's better to start with ginzu, and not the chaney jubilee
16:06:07  <Samu> chaney allows for a longer route, but the train will take more time to come back and forth a 2nd time
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16:06:24  <Samu> the income difference doesn't make for it
16:07:10  <Samu> kirby paul allows for an even longer route, but it's such a weak engine, it won't even make a profit
16:08:25  <Samu> as for starting with double track, dual chaney jubilee is the best start
16:08:54  <peter1139> Pfft, dumb default vehicles.
16:08:57  <Samu> dual ginzu is quite expensive, and since the limit is £150k, the route is too short for it to make a profit
16:09:29  <Samu> now, i also tested kirby paul on dual track, 2 trains and 3 trains
16:09:45  <Samu> 3 kirby pauls do better than 2 ginzus
16:09:46  <Gustavo6046> I have notes about the Brazilian Portuguese translation.
16:09:59  <Samu> that was the surprise
16:10:05  <Gustavo6046>  • "Randômico" is wrong; "Aleatório" is the correct word.
16:10:14  <Gustavo6046> [pending]
16:10:25  <Samu> but 2 kirby pauls wielded the worst result
16:10:27  <Gustavo6046> Other than that I absolutely loved the accurate translation!
16:10:33  <Gustavo6046> Who did it?
16:10:46  <Gustavo6046> Sounds like a native Brazilian who knows a notch of English to mix the word "random" in :P
16:11:30  <Samu> ranking it all, it becomes like this:
16:11:50  <Gustavo6046> peter1139, vanilla <3
16:12:07  <Samu> #1 - dual chaney jubilee on double track
16:12:44  <Samu> #2 - tri kirby pauls on double track
16:13:01  <Samu> #3 - dual ginzu on double track
16:13:25  <Samu> #4 - single ginzu on single track
16:13:50  <Samu> #5 - dual kirby pauls on double track
16:14:11  <Samu> #6 - single chaney jubilee in single track
16:14:26  <Samu> #7 - single kirby paul on single track
16:14:43  <Samu> the big surprise was then, the tri kirby paul
16:17:44  <Samu> i should mention distances
16:18:34  <Samu> #1 - 218 tiles
16:18:53  <Wolf01> Gone berserk on testing again?
16:18:58  <Samu> #2 - 198 tiles
16:19:17  <Samu> #3 - 146 tiles
16:19:49  <Samu> #4 - 718 tiles
16:20:14  <Samu> #5 - 286 tiles
16:20:35  <Samu> #6 - 796 tiles
16:20:51  <Samu> #7 - 875 tiles
16:22:16  <Wolf01> Why don't you test the different engines on the same conditions?
16:22:46  <Samu> the limit was £150k loan
16:22:54  <Samu> try to make complete routes to the last cent
16:23:04  <Samu> and i came up with those
16:23:23  <Samu> all trains were transporting coal
16:23:47  <Wolf01> It's like testing a F1 car doing the Silverstone international track vs a wheelbarrow on the national track and comparing times
16:23:48  <Samu> i also did this for trucks
16:24:10  <Samu> for trucks, it's not so interesting to report
16:24:28  <Samu> single road, and the number of trucks being the distance limitation
16:24:33  <Samu> on each route
16:24:34  <Wolf01> You compare pears and apples with the condition of "being fruits"
16:29:48  <Samu> for trucks it was prety much a tie, only 3 of these tests are relevant to report
16:30:54  <Samu> #1 - 18 trucks, on a single road, 121 tiles
16:31:13  <Samu> #2 - 19 trucks, on a single road, 92 tiles
16:31:31  <Samu> #3 - 17 trucks, on a single road, 149 tiles
16:31:57  <Samu> #4, #5, #6 etc... are all less number of trucks with longer routes
16:34:53  <Samu> the best truck route is only able to beat #7 train route
16:34:59  <Samu> :(
16:39:06  <Samu> nerf trains
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16:41:17  <andythenorth> probably what’s needed samu
16:41:27  <andythenorth> is some kind of way for players to mod vehicles
16:41:44  <andythenorth> so they can balance
16:42:07  <Samu> perhaps it's not the train itself that needs balance :(
16:42:16  <Samu> but the rails, constructing them
16:42:25  <Samu> they're cheaper than roads :(
16:44:26  <Samu> or maybe the roads themselves should be cheaper
16:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Gustavo6046: well, the svn log will know who the translator(s) for portuguese (br) was/were
16:44:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Gustavo6046: also, you can sign up as a translator if you want to improve
16:46:32  <Samu> distance matters too much in this game :(
16:59:23  <Samu> alright, time to experiment with basecosts
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17:02:08  <nauticalnexus> is this a support channel?
17:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:02:32  <nauticalnexus> Could you point me to a channel I can get support for openttd then?
17:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> read the topic?
17:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> @topic get 3
17:03:43  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
17:04:25  <nauticalnexus> Oh. I'm trying to install 1.7.1 on Ubuntu 17.10 and it didn't work, says it depends on libicu52 but it isn't installable, libpng12-0 same thing
17:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, you need a version compiled specifically for that version of ubuntu, can't just take any ubuntu version
17:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or you use the "generic" linux binary
17:05:21  <nauticalnexus> well the repos don't have 1.7.1
17:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> does ubuntu have community repos or something?
17:06:15  <nauticalnexus>
17:08:36  <nauticalnexus> The binary worked.
17:31:07  <Samu> cheaper roads doesn't change all that much, allows one/two more trucks for the same distance
17:31:20  <Samu> it helps, but doesn't seem much
17:31:55  <Samu> perhaps testing will make me change my opinion
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17:35:49  <Samu> 19 trucks with roads costing half, allows a distance of 171 tiles, previously it was 92 tiles
17:36:26  <Samu> or in another view
17:37:26  <Samu> 18 trucks previously allowed a distance of 121 tiles, but with roads costing half, allows 20 trucks a distance of 119 tiles
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19:19:17  <Samu>
19:19:25  <Samu> not too bad
19:21:01  <Samu> rail costs doubled, road costs halved, £150k loan and with my running cost patch for trains
19:21:06  <Samu> ST2:
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20:10:36  <Snail> just curious.. do you guys play with or without inflation?
20:18:41  <Gustavo6046> WIthout
20:18:46  <Gustavo6046> Without*
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20:20:00  <Samu> without, because multiplayer
20:20:05  <Samu> join anytime
20:20:07  <Samu> and so
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20:22:10  <andythenorth> without
20:22:15  <andythenorth> inflation is broken
20:24:02  <Wolf01> With, because I like it so
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20:25:13  <Gustavo6046> Is there how to put a sign in the center block?
20:25:23  <Gustavo6046> Using the AI API
20:25:44  <Gustavo6046> Also, is there any way to quickly remove all the signs without using scripts?
20:28:01  <Samu> i like infrastructure maintenance costs
20:28:12  <Samu> except for aircraft, it is too strong
20:28:19  <Samu> way brutal :(
20:29:37  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "src/lang/polish.lng", line 761: A gender choice list {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
20:29:55  <andythenorth> I am deleting the relevant lines to fix FIRS compile
20:30:38  <andythenorth> wonder if eints could prevent this somehow
20:38:43  <andythenorth> new FIRS released ;)
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20:46:37  <Gustavo6046> Will next year have a Z-Shuttle?
20:51:27  <Snail> andythenorth: I think I have to agree with you
20:51:36  <Snail> inflation doesn’t work very well...
20:51:49  <Snail> I think I’ll recommend inflation off for my set
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21:20:31  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:47:42  <Gustavo6046> Anyone on?
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22:01:28  <Samu> i'm experimenting weird stuff
22:06:08  <Samu> I try too much and achieve too little :(
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22:39:30  <Samu> can you recude the cost of refiting the default cargo ships just a tiny little bit?
22:40:07  <Samu> I'm short of £100 to create 4 cargo ships with £150k loan
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