Log for #openttd on 23rd October 2017:
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06:37:42  <joseph222> Hi
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06:39:25  <joseph222> Is it working
06:39:34  <joseph222> I am testing it on a app
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06:39:51  <joseph222> Hi
06:40:05  <joseph222> ...
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06:49:52  <andythenorth> supermop:
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07:22:45  <V453000> iz?
07:23:32  <andythenorth> yup
07:33:00  * andythenorth drawing Yeti transport
07:38:41  <V453000> sick
07:38:49  * V453000 finishing BRIX
07:38:53  <V453000> release tonight motherfuckers :>
07:41:36  <andythenorth> countdown clock
07:42:09  <joseph222> ??
07:45:30  <V453000> yeah
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08:37:56  <FLHerne> joseph222: It is, yes
08:39:15  <FLHerne> V453000: All the pictures on your preview page are broken
08:39:31  <FLHerne> (also the v1->2 comparison)
08:39:31  <V453000> yes because dropbox is a piece of trash
08:39:33  <FLHerne> Ah
08:39:42  <V453000> I'll probably fix it someday
08:39:57  <V453000> for now publishing BRIX is top priority
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09:46:07  <V453000> 8 pages of bullshit text
09:46:07  <V453000> nice
09:46:51  <andythenorth> ?
09:47:02  <V453000> big BRIX blog article
09:47:04  <V453000> iz
09:48:19  <andythenorth> error
09:48:23  <andythenorth> not on coop site
09:48:27  <andythenorth> type faster
09:49:25  <V453000> evening will bring shitstorm
09:49:35  <V453000> BRIX flooding openttd universe
09:51:08  <V453000> oh also
09:51:23  <V453000> what was the thing which was stripping newgrfs of 32bpp and EZ?
09:55:43  <V453000> was it also musa?
09:55:47  <V453000> or some nmlc thing?
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10:15:20  <Wolf01> Moin
10:15:55  <__ln__> buon moin
10:37:18  <planetmaker> V453000, iirc it was grfcodec
10:37:48  <V453000> ooo
10:38:07  <V453000> thank you :) will try to fiddle
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10:51:02  <Samu> hi
10:51:13  <Samu> looking for english help
10:51:38  <Samu> I want to shorten "distance travelled during flight"
10:51:50  <Samu> distance flawn? flewed? flown?
10:51:56  <Samu> flought?
10:53:15  <V453000> "flying distance" ?
10:53:35  <V453000> "flymeters"
10:53:37  <V453000> :D
10:53:58  <Samu> :(
10:54:42  <Samu> "distance travelled since last takeoff" is too much to put on vehicle detail window
10:57:12  <Samu> well, there's "breakdowns since last service"
10:57:20  <Samu> not short as well, but ...
10:57:38  <LordAro> Samu: "flown"
10:57:49  <Samu> ty LordAro
10:57:58  <LordAro> although that would only replaced "travelled"
10:58:02  <LordAro> replace*
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10:58:32  <Samu> "distance flown since last takeoff"?
10:58:36  <LordAro> yeah
10:58:41  <Samu> ugh, still big
10:58:46  <Wolf01> It depends on what do you want to tell to the user: "distance travelled during flight" is the total distance? You don't tell much about it; "distance travelled since last takeoff" is more understandable
10:59:03  <LordAro> maybe get rid of flown/travelled entirely?
10:59:43  <LordAro> the word is a bit redundant - it's a vehicle, of course it's travelled to move any distance
10:59:44  <V453000> "distance since last takeoff" seems to make sense to me
11:02:43  <peter1139> current flight distance
11:05:13  <Samu> oki peter1139
11:06:43  <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE                :{BLACK}Reliability: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}%  {BLACK}Breakdowns since last service: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}  {BLACK}Current flight distance: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}{NBSP}tile{P "" s}
11:06:47  <Samu> like that?
11:07:23  <Wolf01> Make it 2 strings
11:09:02  <Samu> 2 strings
11:10:03  <peter1139> It was a suggestion.
11:34:42  <V453000> order
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11:42:33  <Samu> there is a flaw with this counter :(
11:42:53  <Samu> horizontal/vertical counting is faster than diagonal
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11:48:20  <Samu> halp!
11:48:22  <Samu>
11:48:41  <Samu> 1,125 til...
11:48:45  <Samu> why not tiles
11:49:06  <__ln__> drop the 'current'
11:49:23  <Samu> oki
11:49:45  <__ln__> or 'flight', i guess it can be assumed that an aircraft flies by default
11:50:21  <Samu> the counter resets to 0 immediately after touching the ground... hmm
11:50:33  <__ln__> or how about 'distance flown'
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11:50:49  <Samu> ok, seems right
11:50:51  <Samu> will change
11:51:16  <__ln__> but i'm not a native englishman, and i rarely even drink tea
11:52:19  <Samu> i still have to see what the heck happens with the counter when the aircraft is outside the map
11:54:55  <Samu> there's virtual coordinates stuff which I really don't get how it works
11:57:20  <peter1139> Moo.
11:58:28  <andythenorth> isn't it
11:58:44  <Samu> i like the idea of showing it in red if it travells too much
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11:58:57  <Samu> considering my patch and all, makes sense
12:13:53  <Samu> there is no start take off for helicopters?
12:15:31  <peter1139> Helicopters are rubbish
12:15:39  <peter1139> I was fixing something but didn't
12:15:44  <peter1139> Usual for my patches, I suppose.
12:15:57  <Samu> AircraftEventHandler_TakeOff
12:16:03  <Samu> this should suffice for both
12:16:06  <Samu> let's see
12:16:46  <Samu> i'm still trying to figure when it's the best time to reset the counter
12:17:12  <Samu> and when it's the best time to start counting and when to stop counting
12:18:59  <Samu> when the sound starts playing, the counter resets to 0
12:19:13  <Samu> seems like a good time to reset
12:21:24  <V453000> how would you expect I should give it the zoom and depth parameters?
12:21:37  <V453000> it seems to just remove both 32bpp and EZ for me
12:21:45  <V453000> can I make a 8bpp + EZ newgrf with this?
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12:23:35  <Samu> damn it, helicopters are a difficult specimen
12:35:01  <Samu> it's all too confusing for helicopters
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13:38:26  <supermop_> andythenorth: did you see this yet?
13:39:34  <andythenorth> supermop_: think it will make it? o_O
13:39:41  <supermop_> yeah
13:40:02  <supermop_> i was debating the 100 quid level yesterday when it launched
13:40:06  <supermop_> now thats all gone
13:40:25  <supermop_> only hope is to drop enough hints to my wife re
13:40:29  <supermop_> : birthday gift
13:40:43  <andythenorth> I'd buy it, then leave it in cupboard
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14:08:41  <supermop_> 16px wide curtain side for cargo tram
14:09:06  <supermop_> thinking of taking every 4th 1px vetical strip and scrunching them to one side
14:09:33  <supermop_> but idk if asymetrical opening will bother me
14:09:43  <supermop_> lets see
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14:38:00  <Alberth> o/
14:40:23  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
14:56:15  <supermop_>
14:56:37  <andythenorth> interesting
14:56:44  <supermop_> needs dark creases in the scrunch
14:58:05  <supermop_>
14:58:21  <supermop_> folds hang out a bit when open
14:58:45  <Samu> i managed to find where exactly an helicopter starts raising up
14:59:25  <supermop_> ooh this looks cool:
14:59:38  <Samu> it's a bit messed up, but it's here if (amd.flag & AMED_HELI_RAISE) {
14:59:48  <Samu> if (--u->cur_speed == 32) {
15:00:08  <Samu> when speed matches 32, it starts raising up
15:00:35  <Samu> peter1139:
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15:04:05  <Alberth> o/
15:06:25  <andythenorth> quak
15:07:17  <frosch123> moo
15:07:20  <supermop_> also not sure i need gangways on those cargo tram cars
15:12:26  <supermop_> hmm 1 shade darker not enough
15:12:57  <supermop_> might lighten the bumps of the folds
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15:20:21  <supermop_> problem is the opening is big enough now i have to draw mail bags in there
15:20:40  <supermop_> slash beer kegs and bottles
15:25:16  <Wolf01> o/, quak
15:32:16  <Gustavo6046> Oathfinder works :D
15:32:19  <Gustavo6046> Pathfinder*
15:32:23  <supermop_> haha
15:32:37  <supermop_> aol+yahoo branded pathfinder
15:33:14  <Gustavo6046> oath of fealty
15:39:33  <supermop_> yeah. when aol and yahoo merged in preparation of selling to verizon, they changed the name of the joint company to Oath
15:52:34  <Samu> what does {NBSP} mean, I forgot
15:52:39  <Samu> on strings
15:53:07  <Alberth> non-breaking space
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15:57:29  <Gustavo6046> ^
15:58:24  <Samu> ok, still not sure what it does
15:58:28  <Samu> but will use it lol
16:01:22  <juzza1> it prevents line breaking at the space character
16:01:25  <Alberth> it looks like a space, but it's not
16:01:53  <Alberth> so sentences cannot be broken at that point
16:02:47  <Samu> ah, i see
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16:30:42  <Samu>
16:30:47  <Samu> nice, i like it
16:32:20  <Gustavo6046> I have a bit field, where:
16:32:28  <Gustavo6046> • left two bits are X;
16:32:33  <Gustavo6046> • right two bits are Y.
16:33:05  <Gustavo6046> Being X and Y the normalized downhill direction of a slope, where:
16:33:14  <Gustavo6046> • 10 is -1;
16:33:17  <Gustavo6046> • 11 is 0;
16:33:21  <Gustavo6046> • 01 is 1.
16:33:37  <Gustavo6046> Nevermind
16:33:57  <Gustavo6046> • 00 is now the same 0 instead, and now it works, so ignore me.
16:34:18  <Alberth> wouldn't 11 be 2-complement -1 in 2 bit ?
16:34:42  <Gustavo6046> Alberth, I'm using just three numbers
16:34:53  <Gustavo6046> I'm comparing the bits, and doing a & b != 0
16:35:00  <Alberth> I guessed as much
16:35:06  <Gustavo6046> I want to know if a & b != 0 gets whether a road can be built between two slopes.
16:35:10  <Alberth>  (a & b) != 0  then
16:35:57  <Gustavo6046> So, e.g. a = [-1, 0] and b = [-1, 1] does 100 and 110.
16:36:04  <Gustavo6046> Or rather, 0100 and 0110
16:36:24  <Gustavo6046> Oh wait, 01 is -1 and 10 is 1, I swapped :P
16:36:33  <Gustavo6046> Not important, it's symmetrical.
16:36:51  <Alberth> but wouldn't   int x:2   not get expanded as 2 complement?  I wonder
16:36:58  <Samu> so now there's aircraft range and distance flown
16:37:11  <Gustavo6046> LOL line 1101 is within the slope bitwise code
16:37:19  <Gustavo6046> Alberth, no
16:37:25  <Gustavo6046> x and y must be between -1 and 1
16:37:27  <Alberth> bummer
16:37:46  <Gustavo6046> ?
16:38:03  <Samu> what are the pros of aircraft range?
16:38:14  <Alberth> "too bad, I had hoped it would"
16:38:22  <Gustavo6046> Slopes are a direction; directions are normalized to a unit vector where -1 <= n <= 1 and n in {x, y}.
16:38:56  <Samu> slopes aren't a direction, they're a big mess of stuff
16:40:10  <Gustavo6046> I know
16:40:13  <Gustavo6046> Samu, I know
16:40:28  <Samu> i worked on slope directions when working on river tiles :(
16:40:32  <Gustavo6046> that's why I clear the SLOPE_ELEVATED and SLOPE_STEE bits.
16:40:35  <Gustavo6046> SLOPE_STEEP*
16:40:38  <Samu> trying to make friendly rivers
16:41:35  <Gustavo6046> ?
16:41:50  <Samu> during map generation, try to make lock friendly rivers
16:42:10  <Samu> during town growth, try to make lock friendly town bridges
16:42:37  <Samu> i ended up fattening rivers, not really what I wanted to do :/
16:43:08  <Samu> which aircraft set got aircraft ranges?
16:43:23  <Samu> i wanna see how distance flown + aircraft range interact with each other
16:43:57  <Samu> av8?
16:46:05  <Samu> Range: 96 tiles, Distance flown: 103 tiles
16:46:10  <Samu> :|
16:49:15  <Gustavo6046> oh
16:49:26  <Gustavo6046> Samu, it's radius flown
16:49:31  <Gustavo6046> so I guess you half the distance
16:49:31  <Samu>
16:49:50  <Gustavo6046> if the range is in a radial circle
16:49:58  <Gustavo6046> and the aircraft reached the edge
16:50:07  <Samu> i count every time the aircraft changes tile coordinates, i'm not sure what aircraft range do
16:50:29  <Samu> i think it counts the distance between the 2 airports
16:50:52  <Gustavo6046> Samu, you should instead count to X everytime it moves in X
16:50:58  <Gustavo6046> and count to Y everytime it moves in Y
16:51:12  <Gustavo6046> then the distance is sqrt(X*X + Y*Y)
16:51:19  <Gustavo6046> idk if Squirrel has pow
16:52:27  <Samu> i got a problem with identifying coordinates outside map
16:52:55  <Samu> it uses virtual coordinates when outside the map borders, and i have no idea how they work
16:53:11  <Samu> i can't calculate distances
16:53:20  <Gustavo6046> Samu, I had that too
16:53:23  <Samu> i can only count how many times it has moved from a tile to another
16:53:25  <Gustavo6046> so I did a TileVec class for coordinate
16:53:38  <Gustavo6046> it would always turn n < -1 to n = 0
16:53:52  <Gustavo6046> s/</≤/
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17:36:30  <Samu> done
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17:50:43  <Samu> do aircraft have a weight concept in them?
17:50:49  <Samu> feature?
17:51:05  <Samu> the more loaded it is, the least it accelerates
17:56:39  <Alberth> the biggest problem is getting enough lift
17:57:01  <Alberth> but you obviously have that when it flies :p
17:58:16  <V453000> hi guys, does anybody remember how exactly should I use grfstrip? it tells me to give it input and output, that much is clear, but then it says [<depth> <zoom>]
17:58:22  <Samu> i was thinking of something like ... making the big capacity planes accelerate slower than the lower capacity ones
17:58:27  <V453000> how do I figure out the syntax and values it wants for the depth and zoom?
17:58:35  <V453000> Rubidium: ? :)
17:58:37  <Samu> depending always on how much is loaded, of course
17:59:09  <V453000> also can I get 8bpp with EZ from grfstrip? aka remove only 32bpp x4 and 32bpp x1
17:59:12  <Alberth> V does   -h work?
17:59:57  <supermop_> samu - planes in game are pretty close to max speed by the time they are in the air
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18:00:28  <Alberth> V, right it does :p
18:00:45  <supermop_> acceleration doesn't really have much gameplay effect for planes in game
18:01:05  <Samu> wanted it to be much like how trains do
18:01:05  <V453000> Alberth: yes but yeah it tells me that :)
18:01:20  <supermop_> also, as Alberth says, so long as it can reach take off speed  it flies
18:01:27  <Samu> some engines take a long time to reach their maximum speed
18:02:02  <supermop_> Samu: that's probably the wrong approach - acceleration is also fairly inconsequential for planes IRL
18:02:04  <Alberth> V          depth looks like 32bpp 8bpp
18:02:17  <Alberth> zoom[] = { "normal", "zi4", "zi2", "zo2", "zo4", "zo8" };
18:02:29  <supermop_> even heavy cargo plains will reach several hundred kmh in a few seconds
18:02:45  <Samu> oh well,  there goes my logic
18:03:01  <supermop_> the biggest issue in 'balancing' weight of planes is rather how much fuel they burn
18:03:21  <supermop_> heavy load = need more fuel to take off and fly
18:03:47  <V453000> :D
18:04:11  <supermop_> to a lesser extent (not important for openttd) heavy load = less weight allowance for fuel = less range
18:04:14  <V453000> ok so I write grfstrip.exe BRIX.grf BRIX-8bpp.grf 32bpp zi4 ?
18:04:37  <V453000> well it did something
18:04:39  <Alberth> something like that
18:04:54  <V453000> ah so I tell what to keep
18:04:57  <frosch123> i think grfstrip command line is broken
18:05:12  <Samu> my own laws of physics differ from that of real world :(
18:05:15  <Samu> keks
18:05:26  <supermop_> Samu: if you want to do something that operates on the load of aircraft, it would be more logical to have running cost increase with load weight
18:05:36  <frosch123> it misses some "i++"
18:05:58  <supermop_> but planes in game (and most airliners IRL) pretty much always fly full
18:06:46  <Samu> increased running costs, again
18:06:48  <Samu> hmm
18:06:56  <V453000> how do I tell if it also removed x1 8bpp from the grf ... it should never do that, right?
18:07:09  <frosch123> yes, it won'T do that
18:07:16  <frosch123> what resolutions do you have?
18:07:21  <V453000> x1 x4
18:07:32  <frosch123> 8bpp 1x, 8bpp 4x, 32bpp 1x, 32bpp 4x, more?
18:07:34  <frosch123> less?
18:07:38  <V453000> it did keep x4 so it should work
18:07:51  <V453000> 8bpp x1, 8bpp x4, 32bpp x1, 32bpp x4
18:08:11  <V453000> seems functional :) cool
18:08:11  <V453000> thanks
18:08:13  <supermop_> samu, i don't even know if aircraft in game have a power property
18:08:42  <frosch123> so you want: grfstrip bla.grf bla-8bpp.grf 8bpp zi4
18:08:53  <frosch123> but if will fail if you have more zoomlevels
18:08:55  <frosch123> *it
18:09:36  <V453000> ok, I won't :P
18:10:47  <Samu> aircraft don't have weight, from what I can find
18:13:01  <Samu> they have no power either
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18:14:10  <Samu> only rail and road vehicles have weight
18:14:14  <Samu> ships and aircraft don't have
18:14:31  <andythenorth> no
18:14:54  <andythenorth> I have wondered about ship physics
18:14:58  <andythenorth> but I think it's negligible gain
18:17:15  <frosch123> <- fixes grfstrip to allow more than one additional format
18:18:26  <frosch123> <- another return was missing
18:18:51  <Samu> aircraft have image_index, cost_factor, running_cost, subtype, sfx, acceleration, max_speed, mail_capacity, passenger_capacity, max_range
18:19:04  <Samu> no weight :(
18:19:18  <Samu> not even air_drag
18:19:50  <supermop_> samu: for the purposes of the game, there is no need to have those
18:20:19  <supermop_> speed is determined by thrust, weight (somewhat) and drag (a lot)
18:20:51  <supermop_> if it is important that plane 1 goes 300kmh and plane 2 goes 600 kmh
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18:21:32  <supermop_> there is not really much need to do something more complex than just giving what the final max speed should be
18:21:54  <Samu> there is acceleration
18:22:01  <Samu> will take a loog at acceleration
18:22:05  <Samu> look*
18:22:20  <supermop_> rather than trying to approximate drag and thrust such that the result is the speed you want
18:22:36  <supermop_> acceleration is only really relevant when taking off
18:23:05  <supermop_> and OpenTTD doesn't have or need airplanes that don't make it off the runway because they are overweight
18:24:08  <supermop_> because again, the capacity is the max weight a plane can take off with
18:24:35  <supermop_> a plane can't be too heavy to take off because it would be over capacity
18:25:14  <supermop_> whether a plane needs half of the runway or all of the runway isn't really simulated by game
18:25:56  <supermop_> you could make plane crashes at short runways dependant on plane weight - but the plane size property already handles that
18:26:49  <Samu> plane crashing is too drastic for balancing... :(
18:27:09  <Samu> i don't like the idea of crashing to make them fair
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18:35:00  <supermop_> make what fair?
18:35:26  <supermop_> what is unfair about planes? every player can buy them
18:36:48  <supermop_> if you want to nerf particular planes, pretty much range, speed, and running costs are the only aspects that will have a noticeable effect relative to capacity
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19:14:42  <Alberth> latter looks good frosch123
19:15:00  <Alberth>
19:15:51  <frosch123> thanks for checking
19:16:57  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps also add texts for the parameters in the help?
19:17:07  <Alberth> avoid looking it up again from the source :p
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19:17:34  <frosch123> like names for zoom levels?
19:17:40  <Alberth> yes
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20:12:08  <Samu> question, how did you come up with those base acceleration values in engines.h table?
20:12:26  <Samu> 18, 20, 35, 40, 50
20:15:56  <V453000> 666
20:17:52  <Samu> let's make yate haugan acceleration = 5
20:17:55  <Samu> see what happens lol
20:18:33  <supermop_> Samu: certainly chris sawyer just made them up to feel right
20:20:20  <Samu> hmm yate haugan acceleration is lower, hmm hmm :) but it's still a fixed amount
20:20:31  <Samu> accelerates at the same rate
20:21:20  <Samu> this game needs a realistic acceleration for aircraft? :p
20:21:52  <supermop_> Samu: why?
20:22:19  <supermop_> 'realistic' would be almost instantaneous relative to other vehicles
20:22:30  <Samu> okay, not that kind of realistic
20:23:01  <supermop_> also you run the risk of then making only very very long flights desirable
20:23:19  <supermop_> where aircraft already heavily favor long flights
20:23:28  <Samu> was thinking of acceleration rate slowing down the closer it gets to max speed
20:24:51  <Samu> yeah, i see
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20:28:05  <supermop_> still though, a 747 flying 1000 tiles will spend more time at a high speed than  a embraer 135 flying 50 tiles
20:36:29  <Samu> with acceleration = 1
20:36:45  <Samu> it took 676 tiles to reach max speed, on yate haugan
20:37:59  <Samu> seems like for each x acceleration, the cur_speed increases x per tick
20:38:31  <Samu> this is all interesting, but i'm not sure if this is what I want to do
20:38:50  <supermop_> what do you want to do?
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20:39:50  <Samu> not sure if I really want to touch acceleration
20:40:13  <Samu> if i want the more cargo loaded, the slower it accelerates
20:40:18  <Samu> idea
20:41:08  <supermop_> with aircraft, you cannot build more, or more powerful turbines for a given plane
20:41:35  <supermop_> a plane will always have the same 'power' and the same capacity
20:42:27  <Samu> what you're saying is that it's not how real physics work
20:44:41  <Samu> major goal is profits
20:45:00  <Samu> something that punts a dent on aircraft profits
20:45:19  <Gustavo6046> The difference is the technology: Embraer, being from Brazil, automatically advantages from high technology index. Unfortunately my country is still poor.
20:46:14  <Samu> the acceleration thing seems to only promote long long distances
20:46:28  <supermop_> it is not like a train where the player makes a choice about the loading ratio compared to the motive power
20:46:53  <supermop_> planes pretty much always fly at 100% loaded
20:47:08  <V453000> Ah I guess musa needs python 2.6
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20:47:55  <supermop_> so there is no real reason to make planes that are 50% full cheaper or faster than planes that are 100% full
20:48:53  <Samu> what about the opposite
20:49:23  <Samu> place accelerates to max speed as it usually do, but then it loses speed if it travels too much
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20:49:42  <Samu> akin to my breakdown idea, but instead of breaking down, it decelerates gradually
20:50:07  <Samu> plane accelerates* typo
20:51:42  <Samu> something like... travel 500 tiles at max speed, then the rest, gradually slow down
20:52:32  <Gustavo6046> Samu, aerodynamics boi
20:52:49  <Samu> what?
20:52:53  <Samu> sorry im noob
20:53:14  <supermop_> Samu: what behavior do you want to affect
20:53:20  <Samu> profits
20:53:30  <supermop_> not effect, but affect
20:53:43  <supermop_> what change in player behavior do you want to create
20:54:10  <Samu> make them use aircraft without them being retardedly profitable
20:54:34  <supermop_> profit is probably a weak motivator for many players then
20:55:06  <Samu> hmm no one likes to use aircraft on competitive servers, i'd like to change this fact
20:55:51  <supermop_> i never use aircraft because 1) it is boring, 2) plenty of occupation on other thing to ever get around to building airports
20:56:16  <supermop_> 3) often soon have plenty of money without aircraft, so don't need them for funing
20:56:20  <supermop_> funding
20:56:29  <Cubey> I think most people who play openttd are mostly interested in the trains
20:56:52  <supermop_> so people are largely discouraged from using aircraft already
20:57:05  <supermop_> profit is largely not interesting in the game
20:57:11  <Cubey> Personally I find playing with the aircraft not very satisfying...not much challenge, nothing really interesting you can do with them
20:57:52  <supermop_> if you are competing to move the most cargo, or to grow a city largest, aircraft do not provide much of a competitive advantage anyway
20:58:06  <V453000>
20:58:09  <V453000> =D
20:58:11  <V453000> iz
20:58:30  <supermop_> OpenTTD is difficult because it trying to approximate a scale where both trains and planes are applicable
20:59:23  <Samu> infrastructure maintenance costs on aircraft are way too drastic for small maps
20:59:55  <supermop_> Samu: the infrastructure cost was supposed to be a tool to balance out the profitability of aircraft
21:00:10  <_dp_> I solved aircraft balance on our servers by disabling large aircrafts
21:00:23  <_dp_> small ones are still decently profitable but loose to trains
21:00:55  <Samu> my main issue is indeed the big planes
21:01:02  <Samu> small planes, i noticed they're fine
21:01:02  <supermop_> aircraft ranges are another tool, but default will not have those
21:01:16  <supermop_> and again, bigger plane = bigger range
21:01:30  <_dp_> range is weird
21:01:48  <_dp_> and does nothing to balance profit
21:02:21  <Samu> what do you think of this
21:02:23  <Samu> _dp_:
21:02:45  <supermop_> _dp_: it was less to balance profit, more to just force some more consideration in route planning beyond 'build two airports as far apart as possible'
21:03:33  <supermop_> in real life, a380 doesn't print money because people want certain flexibility in flights, so you cannot have every take off slot from LHR be an A380 to PVD every 2 minutes
21:04:00  <supermop_> OpenTTD cannot provide that self-balancing
21:04:19  <_dp_> there is a reasonable distance limit, you need fast income when starting
21:04:50  <_dp_> it's like 1000 tiles but whatever)
21:05:00  <Cubey> Any balance in openttd is opted-into by the user
21:05:15  <supermop_> range also can only make sense for one map size
21:05:24  <_dp_> Cubey, it doesn't work like that on competitive servers :p
21:06:02  <supermop_> if you are playing a map of the UK at 4k^2, any range limit at all will not make sense
21:06:04  <Cubey> That's why competition servers only reflect a very small subset of all the styles of gameplay used by players
21:06:44  <supermop_> _dp_: i have never seen a competitive server i wanted to play on
21:07:36  <Cubey> I see openttd as being in basically the same category as minecraft
21:07:49  <Cubey> There are all sorts of games that can be played within the game
21:07:59  <Cubey> Goal servers, city builder, etc.
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21:08:16  <Cubey> But there are many many more "non-game" ways to play the game
21:08:31  <_dp_> supermop_, well, not everyone likes competitive play I know
21:08:37  <Samu> I was medling with this idea... instead of promoting a breakdown aka limit speed to 321 km/h, make it gradually lose speed after x tiles
21:08:46  <supermop_> i wouldn't mind competition
21:09:15  <Samu> but it makes no sense, or yada yada...
21:09:21  <Samu> I need ideas :(
21:09:25  <supermop_> but servers always have things like, newgrf settings that make  no sense, or no newgrfs at all
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21:09:40  <supermop_> or no cdist, so passenger networks make no sense
21:09:59  <supermop_> or very narrow goals
21:10:06  <Cubey> There are no regularly operating servers that are configured remotely like how I have my single player
21:10:11  <_dp_> among competitive ones I'm sure we have the best ones on CityMania xD
21:10:27  <_dp_> cdist is like a gs of it's own, it's hard to combine it with any other goal
21:10:33  <Cubey> It is strange to me how there are practically no servers with a moderate amount of newgrfs and the vanilla/stable version of the server
21:11:10  <supermop_> Cubey: exactly
21:11:27  <_dp_> It's very hard to configure vanilla
21:11:46  <Samu> i only care about vanilla
21:11:51  <supermop_> like a plain silicon valley GS with Firs and a nice train set would be fun and competitive
21:11:57  <_dp_> newgrfs can at lest do something about gameplay
21:12:11  <Cubey> I mean, the configs I use would never work for a multiplayer server, because I limit my behavior through choice rather than restrictive settings
21:12:26  <Cubey> E.g. you could never leave the max station spread set to maximum on a public server, it would be abused too much
21:12:47  <_dp_> well, you can set some rules about it
21:13:04  <_dp_> but better to be coded ofc
21:13:35  <_dp_> but sadly some things can't be coded so still need rules, mods, etc
21:13:36  <Cubey> Even stuff like cargodist has problems
21:13:58  <Cubey> Since cargo only appears with destinations that the network graph already knows are connected
21:14:17  <Cubey> You can "game" the system by only building point to point routes
21:14:49  <Cubey> There's no way to force players to build "realistic" routes under cargodist, it's just something they have to choose to do
21:15:10  <supermop_> Cubey: exactly, in a city builder system, even with cdist on, you can set up your routes so it is only possible for any passenger in your network to get dumped at your city
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21:16:41  <Samu> i feel that i need to do something about aircraft :(
21:17:06  <Cubey> And I don't see any of that as a problem, because I prefer open-ended sandbox-like games anyway
21:17:19  <Cubey> And I think a lot of people who play simulation games do
21:17:33  <_dp_> well, what's the point of cdist on competitive server then if it can be cheated anyway?
21:18:07  <Samu> cargo dist, i rather call it cargo with personality
21:18:37  <Samu> hi, I'm coal, and i want to go to that train, not this one
21:19:13  <_dp_> and btw, there is no way to force players to build "realistic" because no one knows wtf does "realistic" mean in openttd :p
21:20:32  <_dp_> everyone builds whatever he likes and calls it "realistic"
21:20:46  <Cubey> Yeah that's true
21:20:50  <Samu> :(
21:20:58  <supermop_> _dp_: because building passenger networks without cdist is incredibly frustrating
21:21:26  <V453000> +1 _dp_
21:21:51  <Cubey> I'm working on some scripts to pull data from the GS API through the admin port and help me analyze my cargodist graph
21:22:02  <_dp_> Samu, btw, as for breakdonws I think as long as they're random they're bs. I disabled breakdowns for planes where it matters (aka where it's a best way to start).
21:22:10  <ST2> damn, and now that I'm out of popcorns :(
21:22:25  <Samu> when i hear of cargo dist, i always think about how cargo is distributed to the nearby stations
21:22:31  <Samu> so confusing
21:22:34  <Cubey> But I'm realizing that even with access to a lot of information I can slice and dice, it's not immediately clear what my goal should even be
21:23:48  <Samu> i prefer breakdowns enabled for aircraft, but aircraft crashes disabled
21:24:06  <Samu> i just wish big planes couldn't just land on small airports
21:24:11  <Samu> but oh well
21:26:05  <supermop_> i once tried a polish GS that tried to control town growth by type of passenger service provided.
21:26:09  <supermop_> was pretty nice
21:26:50  <supermop_> encouraged growth in cities that were hubs of the network
21:27:30  <Samu> ST2: give me ideas for aircraft
21:27:52  <ST2> change the atendants :P
21:28:04  <Samu> so ppl want to play with breakdowns disabled and aircraft
21:28:10  <Samu> there goes my patch :(
21:28:18  <supermop_> Samu: some people do
21:28:32  <supermop_> some people never touch aircraft
21:28:48  <ST2> actually, on SP people can play with the settings they want ^^
21:28:56  <supermop_> aircraft breakdowns are weird as is
21:29:17  <_dp_> oh, right, I meant crashes, but whatever, another random bs
21:29:29  <Cubey> Yeah the default aircraft breakdown behavior never made any sense to me
21:29:37  <_dp_> basically on competitive server it mean if crashed first year -> restart
21:29:47  <ST2> MP servers, and specially the ones with goals, try to balance things to all cargo types/ways to trasnport it be more or less equal
21:29:51  <Cubey> Crashes are a huge pain so I always disabled them, but at least that corresponds to something I can imagine actually happening
21:30:22  <Samu> when it's disabled, noobs will use big planes on small airports... I wish they wouldn't do it
21:31:00  <supermop_> ST2: i never understood 'balancing' like that though - if everything is balanced to be equivalent, what is the point of choosing any particular thing
21:31:20  <ST2> exactly supermop :P
21:31:31  <supermop_> it makes more sense for the game to have optimal uses for certain things
21:31:33  <Cubey> There have been a number of proposed ideas in the past having to do with improving the layouts of airports and making a bigger difference in throughput for the larger layouts
21:31:41  <ST2> it's where the human factor comes up
21:31:54  <Cubey> Which would be a good reason to use the big ones instead of just whatever has the smallest footprint
21:31:59  <Cubey> But none of that has ever made it in trunk
21:31:59  <_dp_> Samu, usually it's pro's who do that not noobs, noobs buy big airports, one plane and go bankrupt :p
21:32:00  <Wolf01> It's the blizzard syndrome
21:32:10  <supermop_> rather than balancing so that for any route length there is no difference between a bus or a 747
21:33:00  <_dp_> but as long as game balanced for it it's fine to do whatever
21:33:08  <supermop_> Samu: i think "make the game harder for 'noobs' and easier for expects" is the opposite of balancing
21:33:29  <_dp_> like, sure, big planes with small airports are the best start on our tropic cb blitz, so what?
21:33:41  <Samu> a big airplane on a small aircraft always gets me on my nerves :(
21:33:45  <Samu> small airport*
21:33:58  <ST2> hire better pilots xD
21:34:17  <Samu> if i disable aircraft crashes, they get away with it
21:34:23  <supermop_> maybe they have thrust reversers
21:34:34  <Samu> if i enable crashes, there may be accidental crashes early game, ruining it
21:34:44  <supermop_> Samu: punishing players is probably not fun
21:35:05  <_dp_> idk what ST2 means by balancing cargo, but for me balancing usually means don't let stupid shit to be the best way of doing smth xD
21:35:32  <ST2> _dp_: touch� xD
21:36:44  <Samu> like 2 airports in the 2 corners
21:36:47  <Samu> and a plane
21:36:56  <_dp_> yep, exactly xD
21:37:10  <ST2> supermop_: you said don't like goal servers - probably never tried the one using BusyBee ^^
21:37:29  <Samu> slowing them down past x tiles, goes against the idea of what aircraft is
21:37:35  <ST2> and it's goal based to restart when goal is reached and get a new map, to new players join and build
21:37:42  <_dp_> have you fixed your bb to not be a p2p truck fest?
21:37:43  <supermop_> ST2: i sometimes play busy bee SP, its a bit too random for me
21:37:58  <ST2> that's the magic of it xD
21:38:10  <supermop_> _dp_: BB is always p2p biased
21:38:39  <Samu> balancing cargo is making coal suck
21:38:40  <_dp_> idk, I think with a lot of big goals it can favor networks or some sort
21:38:43  <Samu> coal too stronk
21:38:45  <supermop_> it is fun trying to rework a p2p train route to become a network as targets change in SP though
21:38:46  <_dp_> like 100+ big
21:38:50  <_dp_> *log
21:38:54  <_dp_> *lot dammit
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21:38:57  <supermop_> but it would always be easier to spam trucks
21:39:23  <supermop_> Samu: don't use default cargo
21:39:27  <_dp_> coal is only good as a starting cargo
21:39:30  <ST2> BB gets resumed to short tracks when cash income is stable
21:39:32  <Cubey> "Balance" to me means that coal is stronker than most cargos because it also has no secondary
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21:39:45  <supermop_> yeah
21:39:58  <supermop_> in vanilla coal just goes to black hole at power plant
21:40:11  <Samu> i compared coal to grain/livestock combo and I was a bit surprised by the results
21:40:12  <supermop_> there is no other complex chain
21:40:26  <Samu> they're equal
21:40:47  <Samu> with the advantage of goods being produced
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21:41:25  <_dp_> Samu, goods pay better than coal even if you don't count livestock
21:41:35  <Cubey> So the farm->factory chain is actually well balanced with coal
21:41:59  <_dp_> but iron ore chain is probably even better
21:42:12  <_dp_> because of 3 steps
21:42:20  <Samu> iron one feels disappointing
21:42:25  <Cubey> That means more cost of overhead though
21:42:30  <Samu> yeah, it has that potential, but still disappointing
21:42:55  <Cubey> I tend to look at wood right away because it's almost as good as coal and also causes goods to be produced
21:43:11  <_dp_> speaking of disappointing, if there decent cities pax beats everything :p
21:43:27  <_dp_> or if cities are allowed to grow for that matter
21:46:52  <_dp_> actually, why are we even theorizing about it, just check this:
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21:47:06  <ST2> btw _dp_: already got players complaining of this?
21:47:11  <_dp_> saber did it with pax mostly and goods iirc, da with goods, me with iron ore
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21:47:35  <_dp_> ST2, nah, no players - no complaints xD
21:48:00  <ST2> well, only happens with W10 with latest update
21:48:19  <ST2> mine still not updated so, no self complaints xD
21:48:35  <_dp_> and mine is not even windows xD
21:48:54  <ST2> that's why I asked about players... not you :P
21:49:28  <_dp_> psst, I have windows too, just don't tell anybody
21:49:42  <ST2> secret kept ^^
21:49:45  <_dp_> for mashinky xD
21:50:15  <_dp_> and compiling cmclient ofc
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22:00:43  <_dp_> omg, brix evolved to something crazy since last time I checked it xD
22:04:02  <_dp_> 80 megs tho *sigh*
22:04:12  <Wolf01> 'night
22:04:14  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:08:51  <_dp_> V453000, how do I get both snow and sand in game like on reddit picture?
22:12:13  <_dp_> oh, yeah, toyland replacement doesn't go well with it :(
22:12:26  *** oskari89 has quit IRC
22:12:29  <_dp_> and not just on toyland
22:13:18  *** Breckett_ has quit IRC
22:15:28  <_dp_> signal selection is goofy
22:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> what reddit picture?
22:17:19  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause,
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22:21:42  <_dp_> disabling tracks in grf settings also disables ground sprite for tracks and rivers
22:22:05  <_dp_> am I mumbling too much?)
22:34:49  <Gustavo6046> GUYS
22:34:50  <Gustavo6046> IT WORKS
22:34:50  <Gustavo6046>
22:34:57  <Samu> i'm trying to fix something
22:35:27  <Samu> when an aircraft breaks down, it currently goes from 2000 whatever km/h to 321 km/h instantly
22:35:45  <Samu> i'm trying to make it gradually lose speed towards 321 km/h
22:35:58  <Samu> smooth it
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22:52:22  <frosch123> ads for ad blockers are weird
23:05:24  <Samu> looks like i did it, but... unsure if it's done the right way for implementation purposes
23:15:08  <Samu>
23:15:12  <Samu> what u think
23:15:31  <Samu> lines 24-28 are added
23:15:41  <Samu> and i removed some, hmm let me post patch too
23:16:15  <Samu>
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