Log for #openttd on 29th October 2017:
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00:01:36  <Samu> damn, who's a cargodist expert here? i'm confused... sucks when I don't know how things work
00:10:23  <Samu> Attachment: acceptance and suppliance behaviours of waterborne cargo v2 r27929.patch [19.3 KiB]  Not downloaded yet
00:10:33  <Samu> *insert very sad face*
00:11:01  <supermop_home> more people might try a binary
00:11:25  <Samu> i can only do windows exes
00:12:59  <Samu> ok, i'll make an .exe if u promise u download it lol
00:21:41  <Samu> are u on windows, supermop_home, i can make a x64.exe, but if you're on linux, ubuntus or crap like that, I can't do anything
00:23:12  <ST2> Samu: Debian or Ubuntu (debian based) are a bit away from Windows - and by that I mean Windows still have to work hard to get there
00:23:47  <ST2> and I say that as a user of the three
00:25:31  <Samu> supermop_home: are u home?
00:25:41  <Samu> :(
00:25:48  <Samu> i gotta go sleep real soon
00:27:19  <supermop_home> I use windows
00:27:37  <supermop_home> I am about to go watch stranger things with my wife tho
00:27:49  <Samu> oki, let me create this bin package thingg
00:27:49  <ST2> supermop_home: which windows?
00:27:55  <supermop_home> if you post a binary I'll give it a shot later
00:28:04  <supermop_home> ST2 10
00:28:08  <ST2> or you got too in the 1709 update doom?
00:28:42  <ST2> W10, which version?
00:29:10  <supermop_home> idk, I don't have that latest fall update yet though
00:29:29  <ST2> ALT+R -->> winver
00:30:04  <ST2> not ALT
00:30:10  <supermop_home> ok where to take all these building materials
00:30:15  <ST2> <window>+R
00:31:05  <ST2> gives something like this:
00:33:52  <ST2> but I guess Samu didn't get the update too
00:34:05  <ST2> or he would be complaining about it also xD
00:36:49  <ST2> note: the previous screenshot it's from this laptop; my home computer has same W10 update
00:37:04  <ST2> lucky me, my work computer is W7 \o/
00:37:53  <Samu> mine is 1703
00:38:10  <ST2> so, no panning issues
00:38:14  <Samu> got the bin ready, uploading it to forum, brb
00:39:23  <ST2> actually I forced the updates on my W10 machines - after I saw the panning issue complaints
00:39:42  <ST2> as you know, I want to have happy players ^^
00:39:56  <Samu> there
00:41:21  <Samu> it's an entire folder with subfolders, there are added strings, so they need to work together
00:42:00  <ST2> Samu: what's the goal with those changes?
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00:42:36  <Samu> the goal is to ruin players who transport oil from oil rigs with trains
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00:43:04  <Samu> and have it included in 1.8.0 or so I hope
00:43:07  <Samu> lel
00:43:12  <ST2> Samu: and why you would want that?
00:43:52  <Samu> because devs didn't do anything about it
00:43:56  <ST2> as you said, you played on BTPro K1 server
00:44:15  <ST2> had you seen any player taking oil from rigs with trains?
00:44:20  <Samu> yeah, your implementation is fugly
00:44:35  <ST2> I know
00:44:59  <ST2> but, due the code limitations to keep it compatible... what was possible
00:45:26  <Samu> I know what you mean, make it network compatible with 1.7.1
00:45:40  <Samu> must have been a tough task
00:46:00  <ST2> well, what we changed... it's compatible
00:46:16  <ST2> guess you joined using a 1.7.1 client
00:46:30  <Samu> yes, of course
00:47:05  <ST2> it's only a function that checks distances between stations and industries
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00:47:37  <ST2> made it as a setting, to work among all our servers and spreading allowed
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00:48:16  <Samu> oops, closed window
00:48:23  <ST2> it's only a function that checks distances between stations and industries
00:48:46  <ST2> ofc, the code that it uses, depends of more functions for it
00:49:40  <ST2> it's similar functions used for town protection (like in CB's)
00:50:12  <ST2> but that's server specific's
00:50:59  <ST2> I see no point on ruin people getting oil from rigs with trains - unless you come with an awesome idea and code
00:51:10  <Samu> it's a setting
00:51:24  <Samu> 4 settings actually
00:51:34  <Samu> there's some degree of customizability now
00:52:10  <Samu> each behaviour can be enabled or disabled, on the fly
00:54:30  <Samu> "accept non-industry cargo at industry station", "accept industry cargo at non-industry station", "supply non-industry cargo at industry station" and "supply industry cargo at non-industry station".
00:55:25  <Samu> i'm off to bed
00:55:31  <Samu> take care, all
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06:53:10  <andythenorth> o/
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07:05:54  <andythenorth> Alberth: you post to forums very early? o_O
07:11:19  <Alberth> clock shifted :p
07:11:51  <Alberth> but in general, yep, get up at around 6
07:12:38  <V453000> kids give no fucks about clock :P
07:13:01  <Alberth> me neither, but the world around me does
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07:42:09  * andythenorth was awake at 4am
07:42:13  <andythenorth> or was it 5am?
07:42:16  * andythenorth unsure
07:45:35  <Alberth> it's not that important :)
07:47:14  <andythenorth> it felt important at the time :x
07:47:31  <andythenorth> so is it Steeltown, or Motor City?
07:47:37  * andythenorth might have made a mis-step
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07:49:34  <andythenorth> maybe vehicles aren't the ultimate end cargo
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08:31:07  <Alberth> interesting idea :)
08:31:09  <Alberth> bbl
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09:24:52  <andythenorth> @summon frosch123
09:24:52  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
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10:00:14  <Wolf01> Moin
10:14:27  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
10:15:06  <Wolf01> did you even considered this for your children?
10:17:16  <andythenorth> that is big eh
10:17:53  <andythenorth> how much does that printing cost? :o
10:18:15  <Wolf01> I think "a lot" could be a good answer
10:20:33  <Wolf01> Also I think I have the 850 somewhere
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11:08:51  <Wolf01> Quak
11:11:35  <Samu> hi
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11:25:09  <frosch123> moo
11:25:13  <andythenorth> well
11:25:51  <andythenorth> is it steeltown or motor town?
11:26:04  <andythenorth> to put it another way, 50% of the detailed RL steel chain is present
11:26:15  <andythenorth> and 50% is missing, in favour of tyres and windscreens
11:26:55  <frosch123> add ships and tools
11:27:03  <frosch123> possibly a bit of wood
11:27:19  <andythenorth> I am experimenting with kicking vehicles chain out
11:27:29  <andythenorth> chemicals + cars economy
11:28:39  <andythenorth>
11:28:53  <andythenorth> Steeltown currently stops in the middle of the chart at 'steel'
11:28:58  <andythenorth> then it becomes BMW and Ford
11:31:43  <andythenorth> stripped it down
11:32:06  <andythenorth> need to decide what final output cargos are interesting
11:32:14  <andythenorth> then work back to steel
11:37:37  <frosch123> vehicles are an interesting cargo
11:37:51  <andythenorth> cars + chemicals
11:37:57  <frosch123> judging from the current state you should probably delete cement and builders yard
11:38:11  <andythenorth> it makes an ugly line on the graph eh
11:38:26  <frosch123> that's not the reasoning :)
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11:38:38  <frosch123> but cement adds nothing, it only goes to black holes
11:38:46  <andythenorth> goes to bulk terminal
11:40:16  <frosch123> i think readding glass and also adding wood might work
11:40:30  <frosch123> you can make a lot of things from steel+glass+wood
11:41:02  <frosch123> cars, ships, houses
11:41:33  <frosch123> so, building materials may be a thing
11:43:17  <frosch123> other games have stuff like motors
11:43:24  <frosch123> but they are essentially made of steel only
11:43:33  <frosch123> so does not really add anything
11:44:01  <V453000> electric engines with electronic circuits, yo
11:45:24  <andythenorth> motors would be copper + steel
11:45:37  <andythenorth> might work out what goes in a chemicals + cars economy
11:45:49  <andythenorth> very few raw materials, mostly secondary
11:45:50  <frosch123> ok, maybe go for electric cars then :)
11:45:58  <frosch123> also allows battery cargo
11:46:01  <andythenorth> this is the core part of Steeltown :)
11:46:13  <frosch123> battery from various fancy minerals
11:46:33  <andythenorth> the goal is to get those industries co-located, then cram in lots of trains
11:46:41  <andythenorth> then raise production to make it really hard
11:47:28  <andythenorth> maybe a couple more clusters like that
11:47:58  <andythenorth> it's really not a town-focussed economy :P
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11:54:23  <andythenorth> Tin
11:54:28  <andythenorth> tinplate works
11:54:36  <andythenorth> also maybe electrical machines
11:54:49  <andythenorth>
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12:46:10  <Wolf01> o/
12:46:14  <Alberth> o/
12:49:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: shipyard...steeltown, or chemicals + cars?
12:49:26  <andythenorth> o_O
12:49:36  * andythenorth likes the idea that it might look good
12:51:27  <frosch123>
12:51:53  <frosch123> surface mining and bucket excavators?
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12:53:25  <frosch123> problem is that all the fancy products like ships and windturbines translate into black holes in ottd
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12:54:46  <frosch123> <- lists 5 things
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12:54:59  <frosch123> 1 to 4 might work
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13:10:41  <andythenorth> black holes aren't wrong
13:25:05  <frosch123> so, also adding big-ass refineries?
13:25:14  <frosch123> oil rig construction yards?
13:25:19  <andythenorth> worth exploring
13:25:30  <andythenorth> I think it's a different economy
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13:26:01  <andythenorth> offshore construction yards?
13:26:07  <andythenorth> wind turbines
13:26:10  <andythenorth> oil rigs
13:27:07  <andythenorth>
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13:28:26  <andythenorth>
13:28:54  <frosch123> ship with feet
13:30:07  <andythenorth> what can I deliver oil rigs to?
13:30:44  <andythenorth> what cargo class would that be?
13:30:59  <frosch123> off-shore construction hubs
13:31:09  <frosch123> oversized class
13:33:02  <frosch123> anyway, your :27 picture could be an industry
13:33:17  <frosch123> simliar looks as oirlgi
13:33:22  <frosch123> but builds wind turbines
13:33:37  <frosch123> for gameplay purpose it does not move though
13:37:30  <andythenorth> deliver wind turbines to it :P
13:37:40  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about splitting ENSP
13:37:48  <andythenorth> e.g. special supplies for oil industry
13:37:59  <andythenorth> pipe, frac sand
13:38:13  <frosch123> might make sense in this economy
13:38:57  <andythenorth> not sure how it would work
13:39:21  <frosch123> i wouldn't add a "wind turbine cargo"
13:39:56  <frosch123> rather deliver "pipe" and "electric machinery" to an off-shore windmill construction yard
13:41:31  <andythenorth>
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13:42:11  <andythenorth> rig supplies?
13:42:30  <frosch123> add in the other cargos and industries first :p
13:42:40  <frosch123> "supplies" may be a good export cargo
13:42:41  * andythenorth plans cars + chemicals
13:43:12  <andythenorth> only way I've found to make supples exportable is to minimse need of it for mines etc
13:48:04  <frosch123> hmm, maybe to f-infected. but does it need a "lubricant" cargo?
13:48:08  <frosch123> or just oil?
13:48:15  <frosch123> steel+oil->machinery
13:48:22  <frosch123> machinery+copper -> electric machinery
13:48:26  <frosch123> (too much f)
13:50:12  <Alberth> quite :)
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13:50:25  <Alberth> usually it's machinery + electric motor :)
13:51:18  <frosch123> so, steel+copper+oil -> electric machinery?
13:52:09  <frosch123> copper+paper+oil -> transformators?
13:52:25  <Alberth> sounds more realistic :)
13:52:26  <frosch123> i guess "crude oil" does not quite cut it
13:52:35  <frosch123> so rafinery needs to produce more
13:52:50  <frosch123> not just fuel, but fine oil or something
13:53:20  <Alberth> oil is sort-of collection name
13:54:14  <Alberth> likely the industry itself always makes explicit what oil is intended
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13:55:23  <frosch123> yeah, but you cannot ship directly from oil rig to machine shop :)
13:55:36  <frosch123> you need at least a refinery or other chemical plant
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13:56:43  <frosch123> but well, one could as well argue about plastics in machinery
13:57:11  <frosch123> but plastics is less fun than fine oil
13:57:45  <frosch123> plastics is too yoghurt-cuppish
13:57:54  <frosch123> not heavy-industrish
13:58:03  <Alberth> indeed :)
13:58:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't add yoghurt
13:59:22  <Alberth> plastic could work if you build an industry set to produce our household items
14:02:52  <supermop_home> yogurt town
14:09:21  <Alberth> that would be silicon valley, or rather, yoghurt valley
14:13:10  <andythenorth> yoghurt is for the dairy economy
14:13:21  <andythenorth> cheese, yoghurt, butter, milk, cream
14:13:51  <frosch123> pudding
14:14:20  <andythenorth> custard
14:16:05  <andythenorth> can't find a custard tanker
14:18:07  <frosch123> that's a good thing, otherwise i would worry about the exitence of mustard tankers
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14:33:21  <andythenorth> like this?
14:36:36  * andythenorth biab
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15:10:09  <Samu> who's a cargodist expert?
15:13:07  <Samu> Alberth: can u review my patch,
15:14:29  <Samu> i need some cargoflow, cargodist expert
15:15:49  <Samu> to test that patch
15:16:10  <Samu> i still get myself confused about how cargodist works
15:18:20  <Alberth> changing exclusive rights seems weird
15:19:00  <Samu> why's that
15:20:04  <Alberth> I don't know the purpose of the patch, but if an oil rig is under town influence, it should obey restrictions of the town, wouldn't it?
15:21:09  <Samu> if a company buys exclusive transport rights, only this company gets cargo on their stations
15:21:20  <Alberth> also, doesn't your system break with "distant join stations" ?
15:21:24  <Samu> but oil rigs are OWNER_NONE
15:21:53  <Samu> if i get ships in there, and i got exclusive transport rights, i can't even get oil from it
15:21:58  <Samu> i thought it as a bug
15:22:52  <Samu> distatnt join stations is station spreading, right?
15:23:26  <Alberth> hmm, that may be why original game had big restrictions on distance of oil rigs, to avoid owner problems
15:23:57  <Alberth> I build lands just next to the oilrig, and a station, that I connect with the oilrig station
15:24:01  <Alberth> *land
15:25:12  <Samu> it should make no difference on distant join stations, because it's the industry that looks for which stations to supply oil
15:25:59  <Samu> if it detects an attached station, it will not supply oil on the other
15:27:12  <Samu> if you mean 2 oil sources, one from oil field, other from oil wells, the oil field will search which stations to supply oil, separately from the oil wells
15:27:47  <Samu> or do you mean something else?
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15:36:55  <Samu> you can't join your station with an oil rig station, i just tried, it only lets you create a new station
15:38:16  <Alberth> so that's blocked already
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15:40:22  <Samu> do you mean spreading all the way into land, and then demolishing the parts in-between?
15:40:34  <Samu> station spreading?
15:44:01  <Samu> can you post a screenshot of what u mean?
15:47:26  <Alberth> distant join is when you build a station near another station (but not in contact with it), while holding CTRL. Then you get to select which already existing station it is.
15:47:51  <Alberth> that works for normal land stations, no idea if it works for oil rigs
15:48:05  <Alberth> maybe there is a special case for them
15:48:49  <Samu> they can't be distant joined
15:49:15  <Alberth> hmm, not the same owner, I guess
15:49:29  <Samu> their owner is OWNER_NONE
15:51:08  <Samu> but you can distant join your own stations
15:52:12  <Samu> build one where catchment area picks the oil rig, then distant join it with another
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15:53:14  <Alberth> oh, too complicated, I just build land right next to the oil rig if I bother getting oil from them
15:53:48  <Samu>
15:53:56  <Samu> it's working as I intended
15:54:03  <Samu> no oil for train
15:54:57  <Samu>
15:55:12  <Samu> enabled vs disabled behaviour
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16:14:59  <V453000> andythenorth: funny story
16:15:06  <V453000> I had a cool 3D model in blender
16:15:08  <V453000> rendered it
16:15:17  <V453000> realized how retarded and wrong it is to model in realistic scales for openttd
16:15:20  <V453000> even if it's 24/8
16:15:27  <V453000> gg, redo
16:16:47  <V453000>
16:19:32  <V453000> serious chibification incoming
16:24:34  <frosch123> length may be fine, but it's not tall and wide enough
16:26:30  <Wolf01> Also that's a Challenger, not a Big Boy :P
16:27:14  <andythenorth> pixels
16:27:32  <Wolf01> It misses many pixel then
16:27:41  <Wolf01> Like 4 wheels
16:28:10  <V453000> exactly frosch
16:28:23  <V453000> but this is the "realistic" proportion of width and height
16:28:26  <V453000> so need to chibbialize
16:28:36  <V453000> yes Wolf01, that already got chibbialized
16:28:48  <V453000> wheel cut off :) it's not meant to be a perfect representation of big boy
16:29:22  <andythenorth> V453000: do this one
16:30:41  <andythenorth>
16:31:37  <Wolf01> A triplex.. wait, sbiii mean something fictional
16:31:54  <Wolf01> That site has too many things
16:36:37  <V453000> that's basically the same
16:37:15  <Wolf01> Why the fuck is the swiss classification so difficult to understand?
16:38:20  <Wolf01> Ok, I think I got it
16:41:40  <Wolf01> :D
16:47:50  <V453000> nice
16:47:57  <V453000> 48/8
16:48:13  <Wolf01> Also the Garrett is nice
16:48:25  <Wolf01>
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17:24:58  <frosch123> i still have andy's windmill construction ship opened
17:25:15  <frosch123> never thought they actually ground the ship like a crane
17:25:44  <Gustavo6046>
17:25:52  <Gustavo6046> mouse wheel -> adjust cost
17:26:09  <Gustavo6046> draw mode: Obstacles adds obstacles, Weight Copy copies weight between tiles
17:27:07  <supermop_home> andythenorth do you have feedback on verbose names? frosch123gave me some suggestions too
17:30:33  <andythenorth> supermop_home: what feedback do you need?
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17:36:53  <andythenorth>  what to call a chemicals + cars economy?
17:37:17  <andythenorth> kind of like ruhr valley or teeside UK
17:37:36  <frosch123> heavy industry
17:37:42  <frosch123> or "heavy metal" to make it more fancy
17:38:21  <andythenorth> hmm, where is ruhr valley?
17:38:25  <andythenorth>
17:38:51  <frosch123> it's at the border to france
17:38:55  <frosch123> if you really wanted to know
17:39:06  <frosch123> it's where all the big close cities are
17:39:24  <frosch123> anyway, maybe you can also find a fancy industialisation-related name
17:39:26  <andythenorth> so where's the chemical industry?
17:39:33  <andythenorth> seemed to be a lot around Berlin when I went
17:39:54  <frosch123> like "marx town"
17:41:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: bayer
17:43:01  <frosch123> <- hq is in leverkusen, which is in ruhr area
17:43:32  <andythenorth> I could call it 'heroin'
17:43:38  <andythenorth> to go with the other dodgy names
17:44:12  <frosch123> the middle-german-chemical-triangle is nowhere related to ruhr area though
17:44:40  <andythenorth> UK steel regions are not same as chemical / car regions
17:45:22  <frosch123> cars are not close to steel in uk?
17:45:34  <andythenorth> no
17:45:40  <frosch123> well, i guess not all here either
17:45:40  <andythenorth> although UK distances are short
17:45:41  <frosch123> but some
17:46:26  <frosch123> vw was specifically choosen near steel mills
17:47:31  * andythenorth tries SALTWORKS
17:47:39  <andythenorth> it might be there are two economies
17:47:40  <andythenorth> or one
17:53:14  <frosch123> call it proletarism
17:53:25  <frosch123> or "labor"
17:54:16  <andythenorth> working_man
17:54:20  <andythenorth> prole
17:54:23  <andythenorth> fordism
17:54:29  <andythenorth> unwashed
17:54:34  <andythenorth> american_dream
17:54:45  <andythenorth> white_heat_of_technology
17:55:10  <frosch123> hmm, i imagine the economy more like 1880
17:55:15  <frosch123> call it 1880?
17:55:17  <andythenorth>
17:55:43  <frosch123> how about "victoria" :p
17:56:11  <andythenorth>
17:56:17  <andythenorth> I've called it BRINE for now
17:56:29  <andythenorth> salt is a little known source of some huge fraction of world's chemicals
17:57:40  <Samu> what was the newgrf which was limited industry production capacity?
17:57:44  <Samu> limiting*
17:57:52  <Samu> ST2:
17:58:01  <Samu> BusyBee?
17:58:30  <ST2> BB is a GS
17:58:45  <ST2> I think ECS limits production
17:58:47  <ST2> not sure
17:59:08  <andythenorth> PBI or ECS
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17:59:21  <Samu> ECS, ok, let me take a look
17:59:48  *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7757
17:59:57  <Samu> cus there are some code i don't quite understand, regarding industry acceptance cargo
18:00:06  <Samu> or production
18:01:13  <Samu> woah, there's so many ECS grfs, which one is it
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18:07:43  <Samu> nah, can't be ecs
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18:08:24  <Samu> i remember i was playing one of your servers and an industry suddenly stopped accepting grain/livestock
18:08:32  <Samu> it was over capacity
18:08:43  <Samu> what was it
18:08:47  <ST2> sec
18:09:27  <ST2> Experts hard - industries -
18:09:41  <ST2> note: only works on temperate climate
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18:11:10  <Samu> thx, that was it. let me explore this thing
18:13:02  <andythenorth> well
18:13:03  <andythenorth>
18:13:14  <andythenorth> chemicals is a rabbit hole :D
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18:17:22  <supermop_home> all these short turns at stations look weird with steam engines
18:17:33  <supermop_home> i guess I need to add head shunts
18:41:09  <supermop_home> andythenorth now you have me reading about production of pvc
18:41:18  <andythenorth> isn't it
18:43:05  <andythenorth> ethylene
18:43:07  <andythenorth> chlorine
18:43:13  <andythenorth> caustic soda
18:43:15  <andythenorth> styrene
18:43:27  <supermop_home> but
18:43:32  <andythenorth> (styrene in pellets)
18:43:45  <supermop_home> wouldn't it all just be tanks and covered hoppers?
18:43:54  <andythenorth> yes BUT DIFFERENT COLOURS :)
18:43:56  <andythenorth> but yes
18:44:00  <andythenorth> that's a limiting factor
18:44:10  <andythenorth> trying to work out if this is legit or not
18:44:27  <andythenorth> or do I just rename steeltown, and add in more chemicals
18:44:40  <andythenorth> the steeltown economy graph was really really horrible :P
18:45:18  <supermop_home> steeltown has a 'feel'
18:45:23  <supermop_home> rust belty
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18:45:48  <supermop_home> I feel like thats some people can readily emotionally associate with
18:45:55  <supermop_home> espescially wrt trains
18:45:59  <andythenorth> isn't it
18:46:05  <andythenorth> also this cluster
18:46:43  <supermop_home> chemical town or whatever might have a feel for some, but its different than the Sheffield or Bethlehem one
18:46:59  <andythenorth> ok
18:47:06  <andythenorth> these are legit comments
18:47:12  <supermop_home> poor plastics plant getting no love there
18:47:28  <andythenorth> lacks chlorine :P
18:47:31  <supermop_home> i mean, you have to think about how 'train-y' something feels
18:47:57  <supermop_home> to americans and brits, maybe japanese of certain area, train means steel
18:48:25  <supermop_home> rolls and rolls, coal, ore, billowing smoke
18:48:46  <supermop_home> big rust colored monsters of plants looming over towns
18:49:31  <supermop_home> chemical town is more like grey boxy buildings with miles and miles of silver pipes everywhere
18:49:36  <andythenorth> yes
18:49:49  <andythenorth> now that I try sketching it out I find I need 4 chemical plants :P
18:49:50  <supermop_home> feels like europe, post war
18:49:52  <andythenorth> all will look about same
18:50:02  <supermop_home> steel town feels very pre-war
18:50:38  <andythenorth> is it steeltown, or just bonkers heavy industry?
18:50:52  <supermop_home> one and the same
18:50:56  <andythenorth> also it has a supplies problem :P
18:51:16  <supermop_home> but needs that beautiful hulking bleakness (ST does)
18:51:41  <andythenorth> supplies can't be both the pinnacle cago and in high-demand as an input
18:51:44  <andythenorth> cargo *
18:51:50  <supermop_home> FIRS art already does a good job of both, but its incongruous to see them together
18:52:09  <supermop_home> eg fertilizer plant
18:52:22  <supermop_home> next to blast furnace
18:52:48  <supermop_home> one looks clean and modern, the other looks like something from the dark ages
18:53:15  <supermop_home> I guess you could drawn modern steel mills and old looking chemical plants
18:54:08  <supermop_home> but I like the idea of styles/climates - rust climate, pipes climate, farm climate
18:55:33  <andythenorth> is steeltown rust belt?
18:55:44  <supermop_home> pre-rusting
18:56:20  <andythenorth> hmm
18:57:04  <andythenorth> chemicals economy seriously unconvincing
18:57:08  <andythenorth> but
18:57:19  <andythenorth> Steeltown doesn't work, the cargo graph is ugly
18:58:01  <supermop_home> I still think there is value in the goal being cars -> towns
18:58:12  <andythenorth> I agree
18:58:32  <supermop_home> currently I am playing an extreme game
18:58:42  <frosch123> i still like adding electrical motors and transformers as visual cargo
18:58:49  <supermop_home> and have yet to take a single supply anywhere
18:58:51  <frosch123> not sure where to deliver them to though :)
18:59:00  <supermop_home> frosch123: power plant!
18:59:52  <andythenorth> ports
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19:00:12  <supermop_home> power plants start as non functional and have to deliver the part to them
19:00:13  <andythenorth>
19:00:40  <supermop_home> after which they will work for a few decades before they need more
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19:01:02  <frosch123> if you send them to ports, it's just energy equipment
19:01:12  <andythenorth> rocket boosters? o_O
19:01:13  <frosch123> "heavy goods"?
19:01:17  <supermop_home> cities should need them
19:01:23  <frosch123> heavy goods go to port, not to towen
19:01:25  <supermop_home> for substations and large buildings
19:01:26  <frosch123> *town
19:01:34  <andythenorth> space launch site
19:01:37  <supermop_home> 'industrial machinery'
19:02:07  <frosch123> that's too close to ensp
19:02:20  <supermop_home> sell them to ports to build new industries in far off lands?
19:02:23  <andythenorth> I can probably get salt out of the soda ash mine
19:02:32  <andythenorth> salt -> bulk terminal, chemicals plant
19:02:39  <andythenorth> -> plastics
19:02:43  <andythenorth> ditch chemicals
19:02:45  <supermop_home> andythenorth don't they just dissolve and pump it out now
19:02:54  <supermop_home> same as potash?
19:02:55  <andythenorth> find a way to ditch the liquids terminal
19:03:09  <andythenorth> maybe give up Pipe as a cargo :(
19:03:24  <supermop_home> oh potash is a salt
19:03:26  <supermop_home> duh
19:03:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: remove plastics
19:04:00  <frosch123> plastics are yoghurt
19:04:23  <andythenorth> need em for vehicles :)
19:04:29  <andythenorth> if the vehicles chain goes back in
19:04:40  <frosch123> vehicles which use plastic do not use steel
19:04:41  <andythenorth> plastics was a boring cargo in PBCI though
19:04:48  <andythenorth> PBI *
19:05:00  <frosch123> imho go for pre 1910 economy
19:05:06  <andythenorth> hmm
19:05:06  <frosch123> vehicles are made from wood and steel
19:05:23  <frosch123> rubber is the only thing remotely close to chemicals
19:05:53  <frosch123> however, in 1900 you already have all the fancy heavy machinery
19:05:57  <andythenorth>
19:08:19  <frosch123> <- which horse roster has those?
19:09:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:09:12  <andythenorth> remarkably this is not my van,-2.9900628,3a,75y,312.86h,73.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sk3_lJ5ti4eBAAXW5OIZE3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
19:09:23  <andythenorth> although I was right just there today in a blue Transit
19:09:24  <supermop_home> old industry 'ashery'?
19:10:27  <andythenorth> anyway, just here is a big steel industry around the port,-2.9894468,3a,75y,96.8h,93.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCErKTpTSyW9Q6H_5TbwUnQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
19:10:30  <andythenorth> and a timber yard
19:10:40  <frosch123> what is that bridge for?
19:10:44  <andythenorth> transporter bridge
19:10:57  <andythenorth>
19:11:18  <supermop_home> need an early industry to cut down all the trees
19:11:55  <andythenorth> there are no blast furnaces there, but all the tertiary industries
19:12:12  <andythenorth> metal export, tinplate, scrap metal, etc
19:12:21  <andythenorth> also machinery, timber
19:12:28  <andythenorth> and my original Apple iMac was made there :P
19:13:26  <andythenorth>,_Wales#Economy
19:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> technically, "tertiary" doesn't mean "the third in the chain", but things that don't really "produce" anything, like services, consumer sales, programming, ...
19:14:32  <andythenorth> I know, I just abuse it :|
19:14:59  <andythenorth> in the sense of 'tertiary education'
19:15:08  <andythenorth> 'Steelopolis'
19:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "Ferropolis" near here
19:15:53  <andythenorth> what if the Iron Ore was imported, not mined? o_O
19:16:05  <andythenorth> reducing the demand for ENSP would be interesting
19:16:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: 1910 would allow removal of the scrap -> electric arc furnace -> steel chain :P
19:17:01  <V453000> :D I put the locomotive on a screenshot and left it 2 times smaller accidentally
19:17:03  <V453000> it works fine :D
19:17:06  <V453000> 48/8 confirmed
19:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't actually have anything to do with iron, but it's a disused open coal mine, and the huge excavators are preserved there and they make festivals in the location
19:17:28  <andythenorth>
19:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> 360° images look weirdly distorted
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19:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> just think about how world maps are actually similarly distorted, just you don't notice it because you're not used to how it actually looks
19:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> PS: the lake is where the actual mining used to take place
19:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> (it wasn't a lake back then)
19:25:52  * andythenorth tries to fix Steeltown then
19:25:59  <andythenorth> no chemicals economy
19:26:51  <andythenorth> cement / building materials /s
19:27:44  <V453000>  /tension intensifies as realistic scale is going down the shitter
19:27:49  <V453000> unexpected turn of events eh
19:28:37  <andythenorth> word goes out in whispered tones: V453000 has shunned realism
19:29:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: the trick with ENSP and FMSP in the charts, is it valid for BDMT? o_O
19:30:54  <V453000> amen
19:37:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: originally the arrows for supplies were excluded because they went everywhere
19:37:42  <frosch123> not necessarily because they did circles
19:38:29  <frosch123> andythenorth:
19:38:43  <andythenorth> treating building materials and packaging like supplies cleans up multiple charts
19:38:51  <andythenorth> but leaves Builders Yard with no arrows :P
19:39:10  <frosch123> keep the arrows, but add the no-constraint
19:39:14  <frosch123> no arrows is useless
19:40:24  * andythenorth delves into graphviz then
19:47:05  <andythenorth> so where are the edges? :P
19:48:55  <frosch123> they are the lines with ->
19:49:42  <andythenorth> ha
19:49:47  <andythenorth> don't remove all constraints :)
19:54:51  <andythenorth> what does constraint do?
19:55:04  <andythenorth> seems to force industries further right when true
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19:55:26  <andythenorth> like an x axis forced hierarchy
19:56:57  <frosch123> "->" orders stuff from left to right
19:57:11  <frosch123> removing the constraint for an edge, removes that effect for the edge
19:58:49  <frosch123> or in other words: 1. align and draw everything with constraints, 2. add the remaining stuff somehow
19:59:15  <andythenorth> can't decide if it's better or not :)
19:59:50  <frosch123> add copper stuff :)
19:59:54  <frosch123> don't add aluminium
20:00:16  <andythenorth> going to add copper
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20:01:52  <andythenorth> removing the constraints is...not helpful :)
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20:08:24  <Samu> I'm investigating FindIndustryToDeliver function, if it needs editing
20:10:27  <Samu> when a vehicle is dumping cargo in a station, it accesses a list of industries near the station
20:10:58  <Samu> only one industry will accept that cargo, in the case of 2 or more of the same kind that accept it
20:14:02  <Samu> i'm under the impression I got to make a few changes here, still unsure if it's really needed, it's a case study
20:14:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: can you recall if you tried different spline options?
20:14:27  <andythenorth> o_O
20:15:23  <Samu> one thing is the station accepting the cargo, another is the industry itself accepting the cargo
20:15:57  <Samu> even if a station accepts the cargo, I still need to direct it to the correct industry, I think I'm not doing this at the moment
20:16:24  <Samu> this is regarding my patch
20:17:48  <frosch123> i tried straight lines; while it looked less chaotic it was also less readable
20:18:31  <frosch123> if there are other options, i never tried them
20:19:41  <andythenorth> polylines works for me, it avoids converging tangents in the bezier curves
20:20:00  <andythenorth> but it looks more like a crazy spider :P
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20:44:00  <V453000> iz 4-12-4?
20:49:35  <andythenorth> iz
20:52:01  <V453000> good
20:52:09  <V453000> is what I needed to know
20:53:29  <Wolf01> Made of rubber?
20:54:18  <V453000> you mean so it could bend?
20:54:23  <Wolf01> Yes
20:54:29  <V453000> well it's already stretching in lengths so yeah might as well be rubber :P
20:54:46  <Wolf01> 4-12-4 could not be articulated :P
20:54:51  <frosch123> 4-12-4 is not a multiple of 16
20:56:09  <Samu> @calc 4-12-4
20:56:09  <DorpsGek> Samu: -12
20:56:09  <V453000> Wolf01: can just slice it in half :P game doesn't ask
20:56:18  <V453000> frosch123: iz wheel countz
20:56:36  <frosch123> ok :)
20:56:43  <Wolf01> Wtf do you calculate 4-12-4?
20:57:07  <Samu> I don't know
20:58:09  <Wolf01> 2K2 in german notation :P
20:58:42  <Wolf01> Which I think it stops at E or F XD
20:59:06  <Samu> i need a newgrf with 2 different industries, one on water, one on land, that accept the same cargo type. FIRS?
20:59:28  <andythenorth> FIRS
20:59:55  <Samu> which ones are they?
21:00:12  <ST2> FIRS 3 - testers needed ^^
21:00:50  <Samu> i got FIRS industry replacement set 2.1.5
21:00:59  <Samu> is this the wrong version?
21:01:33  <frosch123> firs 4
21:02:09  *** Guest7766 is now known as Prof_Frink
21:02:30  <frosch123> (andy is probably not the guy who would go for pi versioning)
21:02:41  *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7769
21:04:42  <V453000> 3.1.4? :P
21:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> should do tau...
21:06:42  <Samu> Dedging Site and Clay Pit accept Engineering supplies, nice, one on land, one on water
21:06:48  <frosch123> V453000:
21:06:58  <Samu> now what produces engineering supplies?
21:07:17  <V453000> :D ok
21:08:08  <LordAro> frosch123: andy is not knuth?
21:08:09  <V453000> that's just fucked up number masturbation
21:08:11  <V453000> I like it
21:08:12  <LordAro> i would not have guessed
21:09:15  <frosch123> LordAro: how can you be sure about that?
21:09:47  <LordAro> i have never seen them in the same room at the same time
21:10:54  <Samu> Port?, right
21:11:57  <Samu> what does enhanced production, gung-ho production mean?
21:13:35  <andythenorth> frosch123: so
21:13:48  <andythenorth> orphaned copper (needs to go to factory for electrical machines)
21:13:56  <andythenorth> ports have not enough inputs
21:15:49  <Samu> u talking to me andythenorth ?
21:16:06  <supermop_home> this dairy farm has 6 refrigerated road traind serving it, and is at normal production, and I still can't carry away all the milk
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21:19:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: export plain steel?
21:20:11  <Dakkus> Hi there, good lovely nice people-things! Any idea why my horse carts are travelling at 2 km/h? Using the reddit-patched version of OpenTTD, but before the same patch has worked just fine. I'm guessing it's rather some NewGRF, but I have no idea which one it could be. Any guesses?
21:20:29  <Dakkus> And the horse cart is from the eGRVT, or whatever it's called :)
21:22:16  <Dakkus> In a downhill my horses accelerate to 20 km/h, but on flat it's only 2 km/h.
21:22:23  <Dakkus> I find this very very sad :/
21:22:36  <supermop_home> sounds like they don't have enough power
21:22:56  <supermop_home> is realistic acceleration for Road Vehicles turned on?
21:23:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: pipe->builders yard, fmsp -> trading post
21:24:17  <Dakkus> supermop_home: Yes.
21:24:43  <supermop_home> I vaguely remember that the horses don' work well with it
21:24:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: copper+steel->workshop->ensp
21:25:11  <supermop_home> because the game physics were never really designed to work with such low-powered vehicles
21:25:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: considering deleting Pipe
21:25:46  <andythenorth> logically
21:25:54  <supermop_home> another posibility is the freight weight multiplier
21:25:56  <andythenorth> kind of loses some cargo graphics
21:26:22  <supermop_home> nice my laziness in not yet drawing pipe cargo pays off!
21:26:24  <Dakkus> supermop_home: Even with passenger transport? Ok, will try lowering that back to 1.
21:26:38  * andythenorth considers cargo subtypes :|
21:26:41  <supermop_home> i think even passengers have some weight
21:26:54  <supermop_home> but its probably the realistic acceleration
21:27:17  <Dakkus> Nope, weight multiplier at 1 and it's still stuck.
21:27:37  <Samu> thx FIRS, i detected a bug
21:27:38  <supermop_home> try setting rv acceleration to original
21:28:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: remove the farm, make trading post output food instead of ensp, deliver fmsp to trading post
21:28:18  <andythenorth> yup
21:28:26  <frosch123> then trading post represents all external farm, taking fmsp, delivering food and rubber
21:28:36  <supermop_home> Midwestern economy without farms is weird tho
21:28:54  <andythenorth> is probably fine
21:29:12  <Dakkus> supermop_home: That did help, thanks. A bit sad, but with rv that causes less trouble than with trains.
21:29:18  <andythenorth> I considered an aluminium recycling chain based on scrap
21:29:22  <Dakkus> Thanks, let's see how 1858 will feel this time :)
21:29:24  <andythenorth> but it seems too modern
21:29:34  <frosch123> yeah, aluminium does not fit
21:29:35  <supermop_home> i will say - I dislike temperate basic because there are no fields
21:29:47  <supermop_home> map looks off with just green trees
21:30:02  <andythenorth> no fields at dairy farm? :o
21:30:04  <andythenorth> oh well :)
21:30:10  * andythenorth needs field-objects
21:30:22  <supermop_home> if you can patch in custom field sprites
21:30:23  <supermop_home> ...
21:30:45  <supermop_home> for cow and sheep pastures
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21:36:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: I deleted pipe :P
21:36:44  <andythenorth>
21:36:50  <andythenorth> and farm
21:38:38  <andythenorth> how many industry types should consume steel?
21:39:26  <frosch123> 2 or 3
21:40:16  <andythenorth> agreed
21:40:34  <andythenorth> there is plenty of room for more cargos
21:40:44  * andythenorth considering electrical machines
21:40:47  <andythenorth> -> port
21:41:22  <frosch123> steel + copper -> ??? -> ensp + some export good
21:41:27  <supermop_home> hmm, station with short-turn terminating services getting crowded
21:41:30  <andythenorth> yes
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21:41:47  <andythenorth> currently there is a problem that ENSP is only available by linking the whole chain
21:42:07  <andythenorth> I've tried play-testing that in 2 different games for 2 full games, it's bad
21:42:25  <frosch123> port -> copper -> ??? -> ensp with port-feedback loop is pretty early game
21:42:25  <andythenorth> games / variants /s :P
21:42:41  <andythenorth> if I allow those feedback loops, then yes, its better
21:43:25  <supermop_home> can either build a third 'bay' track, or small yard/shunt just past the station, so terminating train arrives at up platform, runs on empty to the yard, then returns some scheduled time later at the down platform
21:43:32  <andythenorth> sand > foundry also gets ENSP
21:44:09  <andythenorth> other things
21:44:20  <andythenorth> soda ash mine could export salt to bulk terminal
21:44:29  <andythenorth> salt is quite rust-belt
21:44:36  <supermop_home> currently just sits at the up track blocking the line then reverses, crossing to down track below station
21:44:44  <supermop_home> which looks nice and quaint
21:44:58  <supermop_home> andythenorth - potash
21:44:58  <frosch123> farms with two outputs are always nice
21:45:04  <andythenorth> or soda ash mine could produce caustic soda  (lye)
21:45:16  <frosch123> so i approve soda ash mine -> salt -> bulk terminal
21:46:25  <andythenorth> mix soda ash with quicklime for caustic soda :P
21:46:38  <andythenorth> or mix salt with limestone for soda ash + quicklime :P
21:46:46  <andythenorth> I like the soda ash mine sprite though :P
21:46:47  <frosch123> i guess that and one industry with steel+copper->???->ensp+export for port, and it's done
21:47:25  <andythenorth> ports tend to need 2 input cargos, otherwise the boost levels are hard to reach
21:49:38  <supermop_home>
21:50:07  <supermop_home> this ugly depot & headshunt hack replaces the nice crossover to the south :(
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21:52:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: plastics is definitely out? o_O
21:52:28  <frosch123> yes, plastics are yoghurt
21:52:40  <andythenorth> ok
21:52:51  <andythenorth> wood is out, forests need FMSP
21:53:43  <frosch123> if you need more for prots
21:53:49  <frosch123> port can also take vehicles
21:54:09  <andythenorth> hmm workshop should make vehicle parts (motors and stuff)
21:54:13  <frosch123> and trading post can also take ensp or building materials
21:55:02  <andythenorth> I guess there are two sources of vehicles parts already
21:55:09  <frosch123> workshop should make smaller-scale stuff
21:55:19  <frosch123> ensp and stuff
21:55:19  <andythenorth> I was thinking the transformers :P
21:55:29  <andythenorth> electrical machines is a valid eye candy
21:55:44  <frosch123> also fine, but nothing for the vehicle chain :)
21:56:03  <andythenorth> steel finishing plant only produces vehicle bodies right now
21:56:13  <andythenorth> galvanised steel = building materials
21:57:03  <frosch123> if you add a second source for buildnig materials, definitely also send them to trading post
21:57:33  <andythenorth> that will ruin the chart :D
21:57:50  <frosch123> secondary issue :p
21:57:55  <andythenorth> BDMT probably should be treated like supplies
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21:58:54  <frosch123> you could reverse the ordering for ports
21:59:05  <frosch123> port input on right, port output on left
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22:01:51  <andythenorth> I tried headport and tailport earlier
22:01:57  <andythenorth> as an experiment
22:02:17  <andythenorth> I tried most graphviz options tbh :P
22:02:25  <andythenorth> none were worth adding
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22:04:11  <andythenorth> instead of electrical machines, how about pressure vessels? :
22:04:17  <andythenorth> seems more steam punk
22:04:26  <andythenorth> still needs steel + copper
22:04:35  <frosch123> are they visually interesting?
22:04:44  <andythenorth> dunno
22:04:46  <frosch123> sounds rather abstract to me
22:04:57  <supermop_home> boilers?
22:05:06  <andythenorth>
22:05:09  <supermop_home> have odd shapes sometimes
22:05:20  <supermop_home> reactor vessels  could work
22:05:20  <andythenorth>
22:05:44  <frosch123> essentially pipe :p
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22:07:32  <andythenorth> my thoughts too :P
22:07:37  <andythenorth> copper pipes? o_O
22:07:48  <andythenorth> anyway
22:08:04  <andythenorth> chart is once again appalling :P
22:08:08  <andythenorth> but economy seems better
22:08:54  <frosch123> well, in this case fmsp should be an arrow :p
22:09:55  <andythenorth> adding building materials to steel finishing plant was worst problem
22:11:12  * andythenorth pushes a removal of that
22:11:26  <andythenorth> so tin mine -> tin + steel -> tinplate works
22:11:44  <andythenorth> goods + tinplate
22:11:48  <andythenorth> tinplate -> port
22:12:22  <andythenorth> all the metals? o_O
22:12:32  <andythenorth> nickel plating anyone?
22:13:18  <andythenorth> 29 cargos, 24 industries :D
22:13:27  <andythenorth> that is quite a dense network to build
22:15:35  <andythenorth> tin mines also often produce lead
22:17:38  <andythenorth> copper + zinc gives brass
22:17:56  <andythenorth> also bed :P
22:18:06  <andythenorth> 'done for tonight'
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22:57:23  <Samu> guys, what is CargoMonitorMap used for?
23:00:24  <Samu> ScriptCargoMonitor::GetIndustryDeliveryAmount
23:00:30  <Samu> is this for game scripts?
23:00:31  <ST2> Samu: disable it, compile and check ^^
23:00:44  <Samu> tell me what it is
23:02:08  <Samu> this monitoring seems to be buggy
23:02:34  <Samu> if an industry is temporarily refusing cargo
23:02:46  <Samu> but the other one nearby is not,
23:03:12  <Samu> the monitoring will add that as if it was delivered
23:04:10  *** Guest7771 is now known as Prof_Frink
23:04:28  <Samu> or maybe i'm misinterpreting the purpose
23:04:38  <Samu> what is it for, st2?
23:04:41  *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7773
23:05:13  <ST2> why asking me about a newgrf from last century that's bugged by itself?
23:06:07  <Samu> im not using it atm
23:06:17  <Samu> but this thing is still stored in savegames
23:06:27  <Samu> and is updated often, however, i'm not sure what's for
23:07:15  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
23:07:33  <ST2> me neither, I know that a wheel is round and I don't try to reinventing it
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23:08:23  <Samu> i am wondering if it's related to a bug that happens with busybee
23:09:03  <ST2> note: dnt mix game code with GS's
23:10:23  <Samu> wasn't there a bug with busybee detecting cargo deliveries? i remember something
23:11:15  <Samu> if this CargoMonitorMap is used for Game Scripts, it could be related
23:19:38  <Cubey> I have no idea, but could it be related to this
23:22:48  <Samu> yeah, exactly that
23:24:04  <Samu> imagine you're delivering 10 tonnes of whatever and there are 2 industries that accept it,  industry index 0 and 1
23:24:20  <Samu> index 0 is, however, currently refusing it
23:24:29  <Samu> index 1 accepts it
23:24:45  <Samu> however, when sending this information to cargomonitor
23:24:57  <Samu> it seems to reduce to both industries, the same amount
23:25:20  <Samu> maybe i'm confused, :(
23:25:22  <Cubey> Perhaps this is a little used function that is not working correctly?
23:26:17  <Samu> wish i could interpret this part of the code better
23:27:12  <Samu> when both accept
23:27:23  <Samu> the nearest industry gets it
23:27:31  <Samu> nearest to the station in distance manhattan
23:28:06  <Samu> if index 0 is nerest
23:28:13  <Samu> it goes to it
23:30:02  <Samu> cargomonitor appears to take care of nearest industry as well
23:30:45  <Samu> but not when nearest industry refuses it
23:33:04  <Samu> look at cargomonitor.cpp, line 153
23:33:16  <Samu> that for loop
23:33:55  <Samu> then look at economy.cpp, line 1035
23:34:10  <Samu> and line 1086
23:37:00  <Samu> line 1116
23:37:01  <Samu> 	AddCargoDelivery(cargo_type, company->index, accepted, src_type, src, st);
23:38:26  <Samu> the "accepted" is the cargo amount that was accepted at that station, but the monitoring seems not to care which industry accepted
23:38:50  <Samu> it
23:41:25  <Cubey> So it sounds like the cargo monitor "works," just not exactly as described
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