Log for #openttd on 30th October 2017:
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00:02:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:09:19  <Afdal> Could someone tell me the proper syntax for setting variables from console again
00:09:25  <Afdal> I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here
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00:10:05  <Afdal> isn't it just "set net_frame_freq 8" for instance?
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00:19:09  <Samu> can u spot the difference on these two?
00:19:15  <Samu> if (HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && !IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_indcargo_at_nonindstation) continue;
00:19:20  <Samu> if (!HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_nonindcargo_at_indstation) continue;
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00:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly with =?
00:38:25  <nick213> Hi, is there a fix to the bug where right click drag scrolling is broken on winblows10 after the last big update?
00:39:31  <Cubey> I think I have heard that is caused by something windows 10 is doing with "mouse gestures," which I hope you can turn off
00:40:11  <Cubey> I don't use that OS so I don't know how that is done
00:40:56  <nick213> Thanks, I will look it up
01:02:58  <Samu> cyas all
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01:38:16  <joseph222> Hello
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01:48:11  <supermop_home> here is something odd:
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01:48:51  <supermop_home> build a truck loading bay with houses in its catchment: it won't accept passengers
01:48:54  <supermop_home> but
01:49:54  <supermop_home> build a dock etc with houses that accepts passengers
01:50:03  <supermop_home> then attach a truck station
01:50:14  <supermop_home> then remove the dock
01:50:28  <supermop_home> now you have a truck bay that accepts passengers
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06:11:22  <PressureLine> Hihi
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07:17:33  <zermizh> oh hi
07:18:15  <zermizh> i wish i had known about openttd like 10 years ago.  i used to play this stuff when i was 6 or something
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08:16:33  <Wolf01> o/
08:17:16  <__ln__> hello early wolf
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08:17:43  <PressureLine> haha I remember playing TTO like 20 years ago
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08:48:11  <PressureLine> Why can't I get a 'happy medium' between:
08:48:12  <PressureLine> "so many industries on a map I spend half my time routing trains around them"
08:48:14  <PressureLine> and
08:48:59  <PressureLine> "wtf the 'only' paper mill is 1000 tiles from all the forests"
08:49:28  <Wolf01> Map size and number of towns affect industries
08:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: what if the wolf is not early, but the time is late?
08:54:11  <PressureLine>
08:54:26  <PressureLine> seems a tad excessive for Low/Low on a 512*1024
08:55:06  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: especially today that is a possibility indeed
08:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> PressureLine: consider that the map size just multiplies everything from the original 256x256, instead of spacing things out
08:58:36  <PressureLine> yeah
08:58:54  <PressureLine> just weird is all, that setting the industires to V.Low
08:59:04  <PressureLine> turns the map into a howling wilderness
08:59:25  <Eddi|zuHause> try towns to v.low and industries to low?
08:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly enabling/disabling multiple of the same industry per town?
09:02:54  <PressureLine> is disabled
09:06:09  <PressureLine> more of a general gripe really.
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11:11:56  <Samu> hi
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12:18:50  <PressureLine> o_O
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12:41:14  <Samu>
12:41:21  <Samu> v3 is posted, also edited the topic
12:41:25  <Samu> to be a bit more clear
12:41:31  <Samu> tell me if it's still confusing
12:46:30  <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to be supplied with cargo supplied by the industry
12:46:35  <Samu> this line is too long
12:46:47  <Samu> must shorten it, any halp!
12:46:55  <PressureLine> hmm
12:47:23  <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to supply cargo supplied by its industry?
12:47:25  <PressureLine> maybe
12:48:00  <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
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12:48:50  <PressureLine> hmm
12:48:54  <PressureLine> >_<
12:49:09  <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
12:49:28  <PressureLine> so when enabled
12:49:54  <PressureLine> cargodist can route 'other' cargos through the oilrig stations
12:50:00  <PressureLine> ?
12:50:39  <Samu> oh, this is not directly related to cargodist
12:51:01  <PressureLine> like if there is a wood carrying helicopter that lands at the rig, it caould drop the wood and the wood be picked up by a ship (or whatever) for onwards transport
12:51:30  <PressureLine> when disabled the wood can not be dropped off at the station?
12:51:44  <Samu> the industry or an industry nearby must accept wood, right?
12:52:05  <PressureLine> with cargodist, not neccesarily
12:52:31  <Samu> i really wish to know how cargodist behaves
12:53:01  <Samu> it may affect cargodist in some way, but i'm not directly making changes to cargodist code
12:53:46  <PressureLine> (not directly realted to settings phrasing but...) the reason I ask is:
12:53:59  <PressureLine> a) to figure out what the setting does
12:54:20  <PressureLine> b) wondering if it might break cargodist in some way
12:55:31  <PressureLine> the idea with cargodist is that it can give an invisible 'transfer' order to all or part of a vehicles load
12:57:11  <Samu> okay let me think. this is a bit confusing even for me if the oil rig station
12:57:27  <PressureLine>
12:57:42  <PressureLine> so in the screenshot
12:57:54  <PressureLine> the trams have 2 orders
12:58:15  <PressureLine> "Full Load Any Cargo" at Puthwaite Springs Mines
12:58:45  <PressureLine> and "Goto Brindingstone Mines"
12:59:57  <PressureLine> cargodist tells the trams "unload & leave empty" at Brindingstone so that the Iron Ore can be loaded onto the big ore trains that head off to the northwest
13:00:27  <Samu> Brindingstone Mines doesn't accept iron ore, but it's still transferred there, right?
13:00:31  <Samu> i see
13:00:32  <PressureLine> correct
13:00:47  <PressureLine> brindingstone doesnt accept anything iirc
13:02:12  <PressureLine> so if you're blocking 'forced' unloading (of non accepted cargos) at intrinsic stations (oil rigs)
13:02:28  <PressureLine> cargodist has to have some way of knowing
13:03:12  <PressureLine> otherwise it may try to route 'other' cargoes through the oil rig station
13:03:25  <Samu> if the oil rig station never provides wood, but an helicopter brings wood there, what is supposed to happen?
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13:04:18  <PressureLine> if, for some reason there is a way for the wood to get from the oilrig to it's eventual destination (other than by staying on the helo)
13:04:58  <PressureLine> it would get unloaded at the oilrig, then get picked up by the next vehicle that gets the wood closer to it's destination
13:05:11  <Samu> in the case of the iron ore transfer, there is another iron ore there
13:05:15  <PressureLine> yes
13:05:17  <PressureLine> but
13:05:32  <PressureLine> if the brindingstone iron ore mine closes down
13:05:42  <PressureLine> it will all still work
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13:06:04  <Samu> ok let me test this out, brb
13:06:37  <PressureLine> try with mail.
13:07:24  <PressureLine> go townA->oilrig and townB->oilrig, with separate ships (or helicopters) for each leg
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13:11:20  <Samu> ship 1, town a to oil rig
13:11:28  <Samu> ship 2, town b to oil rig
13:11:36  <Samu> cargo dist enabled
13:11:58  <PressureLine> cargo is mail?
13:12:18  <Samu> oh, mail, sure, i was trying passenger, my bad
13:12:33  <PressureLine> doesn;t matter too much, as long as that cargo type is set to either asymmetric or symmetric
13:12:51  <PressureLine> setting it to manual essentially disables cargodist
13:13:26  <Samu> it's asymmetric
13:13:49  <Samu> i don't think it will make a difference
13:13:55  <Samu> the oil rig always accepts mail
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13:14:22  <Samu> but i dunno how cargo dist work, so let's see
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13:14:31  * PressureLine sighs
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13:17:50  <Samu> i see the ships sometimes do transfer, sometimes do income
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13:19:08  <PressureLine> just scrolled down in the topic and saw the screenshots
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13:19:57  <PressureLine> weird that IOre would stockpile @ the oilrig, guess it has a catchment area just like any other station?
13:20:21  <Samu> yep
13:20:29  <peter1138> fix it samu
13:20:41  <Samu> it is fixed
13:21:04  <PressureLine> omg
13:21:10  <PressureLine> massive brain fart
13:21:57  <PressureLine> just realised that 'accept' has a very specific meaning in regards to OpenTTD stations
13:22:01  <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing
13:22:54  <PressureLine> is in "accept = i will recieve payment for cargo of this type unloaded here"
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13:24:36  <PressureLine> <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing
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13:24:41  <PressureLine> a little, yes
13:24:56  <PressureLine> what is the difference between:
13:25:12  <PressureLine> "When disabled, stations attached to industries, such as Oil Rigs, won't accept cargo that is not accepted by the industries these stations are attached to"
13:25:23  <PressureLine> and
13:25:26  <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
13:27:21  <Samu> for the first, if the oil rig accepts passengers, and a power station that accepts coal, the oil rig station won't accept coal
13:29:03  <Samu> yeah, even myself get confused
13:29:20  <PressureLine> ahh
13:29:22  <PressureLine> i get it
13:29:47  <PressureLine> so if you have a tain station, whose catcchment area covers the oil rig
13:30:02  <PressureLine> it will get [a portion of] the oil generated
13:30:10  <PressureLine> s/tain/train
13:30:27  <PressureLine> if the setting is 'Enabled'
13:30:42  <PressureLine> ?
13:30:55  <Samu> if enabled, it behaves as of 1.7.1
13:31:16  <PressureLine> or
13:31:16  <Samu> that is about cargo supply
13:31:29  <PressureLine> ahh
13:31:31  <PressureLine> umm
13:31:41  <PressureLine> so the passengers the oil rigs accept
13:32:05  <PressureLine> if i have a train station, whose catchment area covers the rig
13:32:21  <PressureLine> even if the train station covers nothing else
13:32:37  <PressureLine> it will accept passengers
13:32:55  <PressureLine> [with the setting set to 'Enabled']
13:33:04  <Samu> yes, the 2nd setting
13:33:16  <PressureLine> hmm
13:33:21  <PressureLine> dangerous setting
13:33:29  <PressureLine> -fringe case-
13:33:40  <PressureLine> i make a new industry newgrf
13:33:44  <Samu> train station is a non-industry station
13:34:05  <PressureLine> it is a steel mill, with a *built-in* train station
13:34:08  <Samu> allow train station to accept cargo accepted by the industry
13:34:32  <PressureLine> (idk if that is even possible, but whatever)
13:34:33  <Samu> if enabled, the train station will accept passengers
13:34:48  <Samu> if disabled, the train station won't accept passengers
13:35:10  <PressureLine> if i 'disable' that setting (because it makes sense for oil rigs)
13:35:37  <PressureLine> it would mean that I would *only* be able to unload IOre at the built-in station
13:35:41  <Samu> are there steel mills with built-in train stations?
13:35:47  <Samu> damn, i need that grf
13:35:51  <PressureLine> hypothetical
13:36:11  <PressureLine> like i said, i don't know if that is even *possible*
13:36:52  * PressureLine gasps
13:36:55  <PressureLine> even worse
13:37:08  <PressureLine> steel mill with a helipad
13:37:35  <PressureLine> now can only accept steel landed on the roof by helicopter
13:37:40  <Samu> as long as the station is of type OIL_RIG
13:37:52  <Samu> my code should still work
13:37:55  <PressureLine> well
13:38:06  <PressureLine> in the case of my steel mill helipad
13:38:40  <PressureLine> i think the station type would probably *have* to be OIL_RIG
13:39:07  <PressureLine> anyway
13:39:12  <Samu> +bool HasIndustryStation(const Industry *i)
13:39:20  <PressureLine> more descriptive desriptions!
13:39:28  <Samu> it iterates over all industry tiles
13:39:40  <Samu> looks for the Gfx 24
13:39:44  <PressureLine> for setting #2
13:40:31  <Samu> i think gfx 24 is special
13:41:13  <Samu> two of them arranged together, will make one to transform itself into an OIL_RIG station
13:41:47  <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations, such as Oil Rigs, can only recieve [accept?] goods from their attached station."
13:42:31  <PressureLine> s/goods/cargo
13:42:42  <PressureLine> Goods *is* a cargo lol
13:43:49  <Samu> can only accept goods their industry with an attached station accepts, lol
13:44:45  <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by the industry"
13:45:23  <PressureLine> better but still lacking. I tell my wife off for saying things like that.
13:46:05  <PressureLine> because it is very unclear which industry(ies) it is actually talking about
13:49:34  <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached stations"
13:49:53  <supermop> found another alignment issue
14:04:47  <Samu> 2nd setting tittle: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached station"
14:04:52  <Samu> yeah, like that
14:05:00  <Samu> but then it becomes gigantic line
14:05:17  <PressureLine> yeah :/
14:06:02  <Samu> we need a master english
14:07:14  <Samu> "allow train station to accept passengers when the attached station of an industry accepts passengers"
14:07:23  <Samu> pretty hard to shorten this
14:08:20  <Samu> allow non-industry stations to accept cargo accepted by the attached industry?
14:08:25  <Samu> by the industry'
14:08:33  <Samu> bah...
14:08:56  <PressureLine> <Samu> we need a master english
14:09:14  <PressureLine> considering that English is the *only* language I speak
14:09:25  <Samu> oh, I'm sorry
14:09:32  <PressureLine> In theory, I should be a master
14:09:43  <PressureLine> in practice... not so much :D
14:11:25  <Samu> allow other stations near an industry to accept cargo
14:11:43  <Samu> accept the cargo
14:12:00  <Samu> accept its cargo?
14:12:25  <PressureLine> but it needs to be clear that it is only for industries with an attached/integral station
14:12:54  <PressureLine> maybe
14:13:52  <Samu> allow other stations near an indunstry station to accept its cargo
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14:14:35  <Samu> Allow other stations near an industry station to accept its cargo
14:14:45  <Samu> accept the cargo
14:15:07  <PressureLine> wow. 3am
14:15:17  <Samu> 2pm here
14:15:21  <PressureLine> and out of cigarettes >_<
14:16:12  <Wolf01> I'm out of biscuits again
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14:16:44  <andythenorth> Computer terminals report some gains in the values of copper and tin
14:16:44  <andythenorth> While American businessmen snap up Van Goghs
14:16:45  <andythenorth> For the price of a hospital wing
14:17:09  <Samu> Wolf01: :(
14:17:59  <PressureLine> perfect
14:18:04  <PressureLine> leave them like that
14:18:29  <LordAro> andythenorth: i've not heard that in quite some time
14:18:43  * andythenorth adding tin to Steeltown
14:18:44  <andythenorth> maybe
14:19:08  <andythenorth> are Big Country related to Delamitri?
14:19:11  <PressureLine> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION = "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station"
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14:19:16  <andythenorth> both Scottish eh :P
14:19:28  <PressureLine> ohh... andy
14:19:45  <PressureLine> damn. where did that screenshot go
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14:20:15  <andythenorth> hey look, a supermop connection
14:20:17  <andythenorth> Brisbane
14:20:20  <andythenorth> and Pikka
14:20:29  <andythenorth> maybe Steeltown is Destiny
14:20:54  <PressureLine> Andy:
14:21:14  <supermop> hmm i have never heard of that band
14:21:17  <PressureLine> ive noticed some of the trams in Road Hog aren't aligned to the 'standard' tram tracks?
14:21:42  <andythenorth> looks like a bug
14:21:48  <PressureLine> does indeed
14:21:57  <supermop> PressureLine: i have noticed the same on some of my trams
14:22:24  <PressureLine> idk if it's just the default tram tracks being'too' narrow gauge
14:22:31  <supermop> if you dont mind looking at them to find other alignment issues -
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14:23:18  <Samu> gonna rename to "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station", if it's clearer than "Allow industry stations to accept cargo to other destinations"
14:23:20  <supermop> PressureLine: i find they are aligned on one side and not on the other, so i worry that fixing it in template would mean the alignment no longer works when driving on other side
14:23:44  <supermop> Andy draws for drive on left, so you could try that and see if the problem remains???
14:23:51  <PressureLine> i think i've only been using them in 'drive on right'
14:24:03  <supermop> otherwise, it might be better to 'fix' the track spacing
14:24:36  <supermop> i can't decide if i am going to fix the trams or the tracks - i need to test more with other sets and with drive on left
14:25:52  <Samu> that's it, gonna rename the things
14:26:00  <Samu> make it like the string
14:26:18  <Samu> it needed to be shorter anyway
14:26:31  <PressureLine> looks like for road hog its a 'drive on right' thing
14:27:05  <PressureLine>
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14:29:17  <PressureLine> great set though!
14:32:35  <PressureLine> I'd actually been thinking of getting Foobar's tram tracks, but since I mostly do cargo games, and usually only use trams and trucks for short feeders it's never been enough of an issue for me worry about it too much
14:34:19  <Samu> peter1138: do you english?
14:34:28  <Samu> maybe you could help
14:34:33  <PressureLine> anyway. better get some sleep so i can be of *some* use at work tomorrow
14:34:50  <PressureLine> erm... later this morning i guess.
14:34:57  <Samu> take care
14:35:06  <PressureLine> Ciao
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14:40:59  <Samu>
14:41:02  <Samu> it's shorter!
14:41:08  <Samu> and probably more misleading
14:41:13  <Samu> but it's shorter
14:43:34  <peter1138> So many settings :S
14:44:08  <Samu> only 4
14:44:25  <Samu> but describing them in a short manner is the biggest issue
14:44:32  <peter1138> Why does it need four?
14:44:43  <Samu> because they're 4 behaviours
14:46:15  <Samu> it needs 4 because supermop wanted customization
14:46:27  <Samu> and it makes sense to be 4
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14:48:21  <Samu> even explaining each is hard
14:49:07  <Samu> accept non industry cargo at industry station
14:49:16  <Samu> industry station in this case is "oil rig station"
14:49:35  <Samu> accept non industry cargo means, for example
14:50:04  <Samu> accept coal which a nearby station, other than the oil rig station, accepts
14:50:31  <Samu> if the catchment area of the oil rig reaches the power plant, the setting lets you the oil rig accept coal or not
14:51:02  <Samu> looks like my explanation is bad too
14:51:44  <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry, other than the oil rig industry, accepts*
14:51:56  <Samu> oil rig station
14:51:59  <Samu> OMG FU :o
14:53:16  <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry accepts, instead of accepting it at the oil rig station when it's catchment radius reaches the other industry?
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14:53:25  <Samu> see? this is why it's hell explaining
14:53:28  <Alberth> o/
14:53:31  <Samu> hi
14:53:57  <Samu> Alberth: do you english more than peter1138 ?
14:54:35  <Alberth> don't know
14:55:06  <Samu> ok, a quick look at these 4 settings, do they look clear to u
14:55:07  <LordAro> haha
14:55:19  <LordAro> peter1138 doesn't know any English
14:57:26  <Alberth> what is a non-industry cargo?
14:57:39  <Alberth> all cargo comes from industry, doesn't it?
14:58:40  <Samu> non-industry cargo is for example, coal
14:58:54  <Samu> if coal is accepted at the oil rig station catchment area
14:59:02  <Samu> because a power plant is nearby
14:59:27  <Alberth> I am pretty sure a coal-mine is an industry
14:59:45  <Samu> ok, explaining is the hard part
15:00:06  <supermop> Alberth: he means it is not for the industry of which the station is a part
15:00:43  <Samu> yes, plz help me, i need help indeed
15:01:21  <Samu> oil rig, the industry, accepts passenger and mail
15:01:29  <Samu> oil rig, the station, can accept more than that
15:01:39  <Alberth> coal mine also accepts passengers iirc
15:01:40  <Samu> if there is for example, a power plant within catchment radius
15:01:50  <Alberth> although you need more than one to acceptance, iirc
15:03:06  <Samu> the setting makes so that the oil rig, the station, only accept that which the oil rig industry, accepts
15:03:21  <Samu> because it's attached to it
15:03:51  <Alberth> text doesn't say anything specific about that station, just stations in general
15:04:07  <Alberth> and those are not related to industries at all, afiak
15:04:14  <Samu> i needed a generalistic approach
15:04:23  <Samu> because of newgrfs, re-using oil rigs
15:04:35  <Alberth> water-based industry would do, imho
15:04:38  <Samu> firs uses dredge site, sandbank
15:05:24  <Samu> it can't be water-based industry, either
15:05:40  <Samu> there are some firs water based industries without neutral stations
15:06:07  <Samu> port
15:06:19  <Samu> fishing harbout i think
15:07:22  <Samu> the settings are related to industries with attached stations
15:07:47  <Samu> it made more sense to me to group them into Environment/Industries
15:08:16  <Samu> but they're also station related
15:08:26  <Samu> so, it's a mix of both station and industry
15:08:32  <Samu> not sure where i would put them
15:11:42  <Samu> so it's not clear
15:12:16  <Alberth> ports are not water-based, you can't build them in the water
15:12:22  <Alberth> neither is harbour
15:13:18  <Alberth> by generalizing, you include all stations, which is not what your patch is doing, afaik
15:13:21  <Samu> oh :(
15:14:07  <Samu> the patch affects both stations
15:14:22  <Samu> oil rigs, and "not oil rigs"
15:15:24  <Samu> setting 1 and 3 is for oil rigs
15:15:39  <Samu> setting 2 and 4 is for other stations nearby
15:17:01  <Alberth> you should probably not talk about stations in context of oilrigs, as there is no station drawn
15:17:30  <Alberth> ie what happens technically is not always what a user sees.
15:19:01  <Alberth> to a user, the industry itself handles cargo transfer
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15:21:51  <Samu> are there water based industryies without a neutral station?
15:22:01  <Samu> some newgrf or such?
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15:24:12  <Alberth> not that I know
15:25:54  <Samu> for me it isn't obvious that ports are not water based
15:26:01  <Samu> most of it is on water :(
15:26:57  <Samu> if it can be generalized to "water-based industries", wouldn't it be confusing?
15:29:27  <Samu> hmm oilrigs don't have a station drawn
15:29:34  <Samu> hmm,,, think
15:29:47  <Samu> water-based industry
15:33:09  <Samu> "accept non-industry cargo at industry station" = "allow water-based industries to accept cargo accepted by the nearby industries other than this"
15:33:27  <Samu> sometimes it's not even nearby industries, but towns
15:35:15  <Samu> "accept cargo accepted by the surroundings at water-based industries"
15:35:22  <Samu> hmm...
15:36:36  <Samu> english is the biggest issue here
15:36:51  <Samu> cus the patch is doing it's work correctly
15:36:58  <Samu> :(
15:39:24  <Alberth> allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than their own
15:40:21  <Alberth> or "... than what they need"
15:41:13  <Samu> "Allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than what they need"
15:41:16  <Samu> looks big
15:43:10  <Alberth> it's just a suggestion
15:43:20  <Samu> "Water industries accept other cargoes than what they need"
15:43:48  <Samu> yes, it's just that it may need horizontal scrolling
15:45:51  <Samu> woah, it fits, it's nearly in the limit
15:46:10  <Alberth> "Water industries accept other cargoes"
15:46:48  <Samu>
15:47:16  <Alberth> window size doesn't mean much. Pick another font or another size, and it fails
15:47:59  <Samu> "water industries accept other cargoes"
15:48:01  <Samu> hmm
15:48:09  <Samu> may mislead
15:48:47  <Samu> it's not exactly the industry accepting it, but something near the industry that accepts it
15:49:21  <Samu> near the station, that is
15:49:44  <Samu> oil rig station
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16:06:14  <Samu> "industry stations can accept cargoes not destined to the industry"
16:06:44  <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes with other destinies"?
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16:09:34  <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes for the neighbourhood"?
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16:13:16  <Samu> "stations can accept cargoes destined to water industries"?
16:14:50  <Samu> "water industries can supply cargo at stations"?
16:15:28  <Samu> implying that water industries aren't stations is so confusing for me
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16:17:01  <Samu> "stations can supply cargoes originated from water industries"?
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16:25:54  <Samu> nigh
16:26:01  <Samu> how do i use the word nigh in this context?
16:26:45  <supermop> nigh?
16:26:52  <Samu> "water industries can accept nigh cargoes" "cargoes for the nigh"
16:27:18  <supermop> should not use nigh in any modern or technical case
16:27:18  <Samu> dear supermop, halp me a bit
16:27:45  <supermop> it is an archaic word used only for extreme effect or mood
16:27:59  <Samu> oh, oki
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16:28:29  <supermop> eg speaking about a religious apocalypse
16:28:36  <Gustavo6046>
16:29:17  <Gustavo6046> ops
16:29:19  <Gustavo6046> let me fix something
16:29:21  <Gustavo6046> wrong link
16:29:22  <Samu> i need 4 strings and their descriptions
16:29:25  <Gustavo6046> like, double save
16:29:31  <Samu> can u do that for me supermop :p
16:29:51  <Gustavo6046>
16:29:52  <Gustavo6046> fixed
16:29:54  <supermop> oooh is this a pathfinder thing?
16:30:11  <supermop> samu: maybe after lunch
16:30:26  <Samu> really? woah, thx
16:31:06  <supermop> Gustavo6046: it made like a dick
16:31:12  <Gustavo6046> what
16:31:15  <Gustavo6046> I need to fix something
16:31:23  <Gustavo6046> like a dick? lmao it's a train
16:31:41  <supermop> but the pathfinder then drew a dick
16:31:53  <supermop> brb
16:33:54  <Gustavo6046> lol?
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16:51:18  <Samu> that 4th setting requires horizontal scrolling :8
16:51:25  <Samu> grrr grgrgrfgnaingfap i hate myself
17:10:06  <Wolf01> I think that those settings belong to "infrastructures" and not to "industries", as you are speaking about "stations", also you can drop the "allow" and put it in place of the "on / off" string
17:10:36  <Gustavo6046> well
17:11:10  <Gustavo6046> Vanilla OpenTTD settings are already grouped very unintuitively, so I think he does not need to worry about that, Wolf01.
17:12:19  <Wolf01> Then just add settings where you want and create more chaos instead of try to fix at least what you are adding now?
17:15:07  <Wolf01> Also I think that 2 of those settings belong to the stations directly and not globally (the non-industry stations), for the industry stations global could be ok as you don't have control over them
17:22:03  <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group
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17:22:42  <Samu> there's a Limitations group, do you mean that?
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17:24:54  <Wolf01> <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group <- add it?
17:26:10  <Samu> in my opinion, they're all related to industries
17:26:18  <Samu> why split in half
17:28:11  <Wolf01> Ahahaah Vodafone decided to go back to monthly subscription (they passed from 30€/month to 30€/28 days, so getting 30€/year more), now for sure they won't charge 32.50€/month but round to 33€/month (32.99) so they will get 36€/year more!
17:28:31  <Wolf01> Double win.
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17:31:14  <Samu> Water industries can accept cargoes destined for the neighbourhood
17:31:19  <Samu> is this good englisho?
17:35:10  <Samu> attempt #9000+
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17:46:03  <Samu> scamafone
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17:52:14  <supermop> samu, it's fine grammar but it's not quite clear to maybe the uninitiated user what exactly it is referring to
17:53:11  <supermop> and like someone said, a casual user might not ever really think about the distinction between an oil rig and its built-in station
17:53:44  <supermop> so need to be careful that you dont suggest that that the oil rig might start 'consuming' other cargo
17:53:48  <supermop> hmm
17:54:36  <Cubey> It's not ungrammatical but I have no idea what it means
17:54:47  <Cubey> Or any of the new options in that screenshot, really
17:55:46  <Cubey> What are "water industries"? Not clear to me if that means oil rigs, water towers in tropic climate, or something else
17:56:28  <Samu> water industries are those built on water, per Alberth
17:57:02  <Cubey> There might be a more clear term for that
17:57:02  <Samu> and if they're built on water, they got a station
17:57:12  <Cubey> But also the behaviors described don't mean anything to me
17:57:24  <Samu> it must imply that it's an industry on water with an attached station, but without actually saying this all
17:57:29  <Cubey> What does it mean for a station to "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries"
17:57:57  <Cubey> Is the purpose of that setting to prevent players from building a train station with an oil rig in its cachement area?
17:59:19  <Samu> where did you read that "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries", that is misleading if it's written like that
17:59:32  <Cubey> It seems like the actual functionality of these settings is to control whether water-based industries (or industries that can be approached by ships) use only their built in station, or can also interact with other nearby stations as ground-based industries do
17:59:52  <Cubey> I left out the word water
18:00:17  <Cubey> The phrasing "cargoes destined to" is impenetrable though
18:01:08  <Samu> yes, it is used for controlling, like you said
18:01:16  <Cubey> Why does this have to be broken out into so many options? Why not just a single toggle for whether "water industries" can be serviced from user-built stations
18:01:52  <Cubey> Or two options, one "water industries can accept cargo from user built stations" and another "water industries can supply cargo to user built stations"
18:01:58  <Samu> it is just for customizability
18:02:19  <Cubey> What is the difference between the last two options then?
18:02:41  <Cubey> In the screenshot
18:02:57  <Samu> water industries can also supply cargo at stations, means that an oil rig producing oil, can also supply oil to a train station
18:03:42  <Samu> wait a minute, im so confused lol
18:03:47  <Cubey> See! It is confusing
18:04:08  <Samu> let me copy paste my helptext
18:04:22  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION             :Water industries can also supply cargoes at stations: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION_HELPTEXT    :When disabled, stations attached to industries can only provide cargoes from the industries they're linked to
18:04:37  <supermop> what cubey is saying, is why not have like a simple on/off for the patch
18:04:42  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION             :Stations can also supply cargoes from water industries: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION_HELPTEXT    :When disabled, industries with attached stations can only provide cargoes to the industries they're linked to
18:05:57  <supermop> "Allow User Stations to Service Industries with integral station"?
18:06:02  <supermop> on/off
18:06:12  <Cubey> Maybe these controls make more sense from a programmatic point of view, in that they reflect more closely how the game works
18:06:24  <Cubey> But there needs to be another layer of abstraction between the program and the user in this case
18:06:48  <Cubey> The use case for this is "I don't want players to be able to build islands with train stations next to oil rigs"
18:07:15  <Samu> precisely
18:07:30  <Cubey> If I wanted that, I would not know what to do given the four options in the screenshot
18:07:42  <Cubey> I guess I would turn them all off
18:07:44  <Samu> but oil rigs can also supply cargo and accept cargo from the neighbourhood
18:07:55  <Cubey> I don't know what "the neighborhood" refers to either
18:08:02  <Cubey> Does that mean the cachement area?
18:08:07  <Samu> yes, catchment area
18:08:17  <Cubey> Or catchment area, however it is spelled
18:08:34  <Cubey> You should probably use consistent terminology with the rest of the settings there at least
18:09:13  <Cubey> But more importantly, in what use cases would the user want to enable some of these options but not all
18:09:16  <Samu> the wording of setting 3 and 4 is confusing indeed
18:09:36  <Cubey> I'm not sure they are meaningfully distinct from a gameplay point of view
18:09:54  <supermop> then in the description you can write something like, "Industries with built-in stations, like Oil Rigs can supply and receive cargo from user built nearby stations.  Stations at such industries can supply and receive cargo from other nearby industries."
18:10:25  <Samu> setting 3 is for the industry station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from neighbouring sources (catcment area)
18:10:47  <Cubey> So you're saying is that if there is like an oil rig next to a fishing ground, you could load fish at the oil rig's built in station?
18:10:48  <Samu> setting 4 is for your station, let's say, a train station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from the industry
18:10:52  <Cubey> And one of the settings disables that
18:11:09  <supermop> Samu: do you think a user needs all 4 options, or just on/off?
18:11:51  <supermop> personally, i would always use 'off', and it sounds like you would use 'on', is there a need for any other option in between?
18:11:51  <Samu> supermop needs
18:12:15  <Cubey> I think it's either one choice or two choices
18:12:20  <Cubey> But not four meaningful choices
18:12:25  <supermop> Samu: all i would need would be a method to maintain the current trunk behavior
18:12:40  <Samu> current trunk behaviour is enabling them all
18:12:42  <supermop> like my wording above
18:12:58  <Samu> but ok, i'll see if i can reduce this to 2 settings
18:13:34  <supermop> basically you have two behavior changes; 1) for the industry and 2) for the built in station
18:13:34  <Cubey> If it's two settings, one of those corresponds to some combination of the existing four being in a mixed state
18:13:51  <Cubey> Yeah, I agree with supermop
18:14:09  <Cubey> The useful mixed state is "I want this behavior turned off for user stations but not for the oil rig station"
18:14:12  <Cubey> Or vice versa
18:14:53  <supermop> so you just need to decide 1) do other regular stations work with the industry, and 2) does the station work with other regular industies
18:15:19  <Samu> setting 3 is really misleading though, thx for bringing it up
18:15:47  <supermop> with those two choices you get a lot of nuance, i am not sure anyone would turn 1 on and 2 off, or vis-versa
18:15:55  <Cubey> It seems to me like 1&2 and 3&4 should be combined
18:16:01  <supermop> so you might be able to combine it into 1
18:16:44  <Cubey> Oh no wait maybe it's 1&3 and 2&4
18:16:49  <Samu> lel :)
18:16:59  <Cubey> I'm not even sure because it's so confusing
18:17:21  <Cubey> Yeah I think you would always want the value of 1==3 and 2==4
18:18:29  <Samu> install the patch, and try this savegame
18:18:39  <Samu> see how acceptance, suppliance changes
18:18:45  <Samu> let me post savegame
18:20:43  <Samu>
18:21:06  <Samu> there's 2 ships, one is oil ship, the other is iron ore ship
18:21:14  <Samu> both ships visit both stations
18:21:46  <Samu> it's the savegame i used to create those screenshots
18:22:26  <supermop> Samu: here is my question, conceptually
18:22:28  <supermop>
18:22:55  <supermop> here we have 3 stations
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18:23:15  <supermop> one for a town, one at the mine, and one by the oil rig
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18:24:01  <supermop> why should the dock near the rig not catch the oil, but the station by the mine does catch the ore from the mine
18:24:31  <supermop> and the dock near the town does catch the passengers from the town
18:25:08  <supermop> why should the dock at the far right behave differently with respect to the oil, than the other two stations do?
18:25:36  <peter1138> Hmm, Saturn V on backorder?
18:25:38  <Samu> it's because the difference is the existance of the neutral station. the idea was to use it
18:26:02  <Samu> but i understand your point
18:26:39  <Samu> it's not really because it's crossing water
18:28:33  <Samu> well, it is, depending on the point of view, so that's why I welcome customization
18:29:25  <Samu> the wording again... "water industry" comes into play
18:30:16  <Samu> what the code is doing is looking for industries with an attached station. it just so happend that the attached station is OIL_RIG, and the industry is on water
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18:35:56  <Samu> if the oil rig on your screenshot had no station
18:36:04  <Samu> attached to it
18:36:35  <Samu> the code would treat that oil rig industry as a normal one, that dock would always accept passengers and engineering supplies
18:36:52  <Samu> regardless of your setting
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18:39:34  <Samu> if u know of any newgrf with water industries without stations, then yes, the wording "water industry" is wrong, because the way it is put right now, is assuming all water industries to have an attached station
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18:40:08  <Samu> blame Alberth
18:40:12  <Samu> j/k
18:43:00  <supermop> how does the neutral station affect gameplay differently? (it does, but i'm not sure to a degree that warrants a change)
18:43:28  <andythenorth> lo
18:44:16  <supermop> if the issue is that a player owned station with better rating would 'steal' oil that would otherwise be available to all players at  the neutral station, i am not sure that is a compelling reason
18:44:28  <supermop> as this is what happens at every other industry
18:45:54  <supermop> conversely (i think), a player could serve the oil rig well for years, building up good ratings and high production, and then another player can dock a ship at the rig and take the oil without having done the initial 'work'
18:46:44  <Samu> oh, the oil produced at the oil rig is always available at the oil rig station
18:46:48  <supermop> so if it is a competitive server, neutral stations might actually be worse than 'selfish' land based stations
18:47:23  <Samu> what you disable is the oil being available at a dock
18:47:30  <Samu> it's not disabled at the oil rig
18:47:44  <supermop> because if two players have separate docks near the rig, at least the player with better service gets more oil
18:48:22  <supermop> samu, i know it is available at the rig, but in the game, if the land based dock has higher rating, it gets more oil - is that what you are trying to prevent?>
18:48:58  <supermop> my question is, what is the need to prevent oil from appearing at the dock
18:49:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: building materials are meh
18:49:26  <Samu> it's just so that the player is forced to use the oil rig station instead
18:49:35  <supermop> Samu: why
18:49:40  <supermop> why force them
18:49:51  <frosch123> slag plant -> trading post is about the same two cargos
18:50:11  <Samu> because uhm... the industry provides a station, it's just because of this
18:50:36  <Samu> use it, don't make your own station if there's a neutral one
18:50:42  <supermop> if i serve the oil rig with a dock or train station, how does that ruin or hurt gameplay to the extent that it must be banned
18:51:13  <supermop> if i have my own station, i can control the rating there with advertisements etc
18:51:22  <supermop> a neutral one i cannot
18:51:56  <supermop> at a neutral one, a competitor can dock a huge boat 1 day before my boat arrives, and take all the oil
18:52:33  <supermop> at a neutral helipad, a competitor can park a helicopter and prevent mine from ever landing
18:52:43  <Samu> ah, i see, griefing
18:52:54  <supermop> no, not necessarily
18:53:21  <supermop> what if the other player simply is afk and forgot to restart the helicopter
18:53:46  <Samu> call an admin, i dunno, really didn't think about that
18:53:58  <supermop> what i am saying is, there might be a reason here, but i am not sure it is worth it
18:54:55  <supermop> basically you are creating a division, where all normal cargo has a particular ruleset around it - build your own station, provide the best service, and you get the most cargo.
18:55:56  <supermop> if a competitor wants to take cargo from there, they have to compete for it, by providing a better (or at least almost as good) service
18:55:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: I agree building materials are meh
18:56:14  <andythenorth> if there were town effects...
18:56:19  <andythenorth> the less so
18:56:25  <supermop> but you are making a distinction at the oil rig, by saying that oil at the oil rig is special case
18:56:51  <supermop> that you cannot use the normal rules of good service = more cargo here
18:57:25  <Samu> i think it's a matter of taste now, you turn 4th setting off if you want the vanilla behaviour
18:57:31  <supermop> that this cargo is only available on a first come, first served basis
18:58:02  <supermop> anyone can take it, and there is nothing you can do to secure a particular share for yourself
18:58:04  <Samu> it rotates between all vehicles, as long as they don't park
18:58:22  <supermop> and all of that is fine - but it is a very deliberate departure
18:58:40  <supermop> what i want to know, is, is there a demand for that?
18:58:56  <Samu> yes, I demand it
18:58:57  <Samu> :p
18:59:14  <Samu> I demanded it so much I created a patch
18:59:23  <supermop> ok then, i want to know why, for you, enforcing that behavior makes the game better
18:59:58  <supermop> because understanding that gameplay angle probably helps inform the patched behavior itself
19:00:52  <Samu> well, first because I hate to see trains going there taking oil instead of using ships. there's btpro servers with a fugly workaround the issue, so yes, i think there's demand other than myself
19:00:55  <andythenorth> eh?
19:01:02  * andythenorth hasn't read logs
19:01:14  <andythenorth> if the issue is banning neutral stations, then remove them in newgrf
19:01:17  <andythenorth> just don't include the tile
19:01:31  <andythenorth> what do I miss?
19:02:14  <supermop> andythenorth: opposite of banning neutral stations
19:02:32  <Samu> andythenorth: are u familiar with newgrf industries? does Gfx 24 ring a bell, or 1C?
19:02:34  <supermop> banning servicing of any industry with a station by player built stations
19:03:23  <Samu> exactly that
19:03:31  <supermop> Samu: why do you hate to see trains going to the rig? what if the rig is right next to land?
19:04:07  <Samu> well, i still prefer to see ships going there
19:04:15  <supermop> also, how is trains at rigs non-competitive/griefing such that it needs to be banned
19:04:28  <Samu> it's my own preference
19:04:47  <supermop> Samu: most rigs in real life send their oil to shore by pipeline, not ships
19:05:26  <supermop> tankers going back and forth over a short distance arguably looks more weird than some installation on shore receiving the oil
19:06:02  <supermop> why do those servers ban the trains going there?
19:06:25  <Samu> for competition issues
19:06:39  <supermop> if it is for competitive reasons, it seems that just creates a situation that then needs extra enforcement by admins
19:07:05  <supermop> how is the neutral station better for competition?
19:07:27  * Samu summons ST2
19:07:33  <supermop> it doesn't allow one company to develop a better rating for cargo than the others
19:07:54  <Samu> they're on equal footing then
19:07:58  <Samu> sounds good imo
19:08:08  <andythenorth> ok
19:08:18  <supermop> how are they on equal footing?
19:08:20  <andythenorth> banning pickup from player-owned stations makes absolutely no sense to me
19:08:23  <andythenorth> so I'll duck out :)
19:08:26  <ST2> in a competitive game, players raising land to make stations/tracks blocks the access to industry to other players - we have disable join distant station parts
19:08:30  <supermop> andythenorth: same
19:10:06  <Samu> basically the reason of my patch is fundamentally because the industry has its own station and I wanted players to make use of them
19:11:09  <Samu> but the behaviour can be turned on if you really wish the vanilla behaviour
19:11:34  <Samu> it's a matter of preference
19:11:55  <Samu> i wanted to discourage players from raising land on water and place their big fat train stations right next to oil rigs
19:12:22  <Samu> it's ... ugly, but that's just my preference
19:12:51  <supermop> Samu: then make the oil rigs spawn only far away from land, or better yet, make raising ocean land very expensive
19:13:39  <ST2> that would be give exclusivity of those raises only to rich companies
19:13:49  <ST2> not very fair ^^
19:14:35  <supermop> how about the exclusivity to the player who can send a ton of boats to the oil rig that the small player has been trying to increase the rating at
19:14:43  <ST2> Samu: if vanilla behaviour is the default one, I even like the idea of giving server owners that choice :)
19:15:45  <ST2> boats don't jam and only one loads at once (I think per company) - so, I see no point
19:15:50  <Samu> i don't find it fair when one player uses ships, then comes another raising land and building train right next to it
19:16:23  <supermop>
19:16:44  <supermop> ST2: what about if the oil is on land
19:17:08  <Samu> if the oil is on land, the patch has no effect
19:17:16  <Samu> on or off, no effect
19:17:19  <ST2> guess the discussion it's about oil rigs, or we'll go to any other industry
19:17:28  <supermop> but that player is still 'blocking' the industry
19:17:35  <ST2> or better, water-bourne industries
19:17:55  <supermop> why do oil rigs get different rules on competition
19:18:39  <ST2> because they spawn on different way that other industries, when mulple per town
19:19:01  <ST2> more a reason to be treated differently
19:19:19  <andythenorth> so are you patching move-cargo-to-station or something?
19:19:30  <supermop> that argument has nothing to do with 'blocking' or competition
19:20:08  <Samu> i'm patching uint MoveGoodsToStation(CargoID type, uint amount, SourceType source_type, SourceID source_id, const StationList *all_stations, bool on_water)
19:20:12  <Samu> yes
19:20:27  <Samu> bool on_water is my invention :p
19:20:28  <supermop> oil rigs are different because CS thought they would be cute and novel to add a new gimmick to the later game
19:20:55  <andythenorth> you're not just checking for the station tile in the in the industry?
19:21:19  <andythenorth> industry layout has a tile in it
19:21:29  <andythenorth> can't remember the ID but it's special-cased
19:21:36  <supermop> there is basically no compelling reason to send helicopters there other than customers of the game might find it fanciful to see helicopters flying around, and there was no other case in which they have a use
19:22:11  <supermop> andythenorth: the patch seems to work
19:22:23  <supermop> question is not how, but why
19:22:30  <Samu> andythenorth: here's my patch you can see what it changes
19:23:44  <ST2> example: the Fishing grounds - makes more sense to a boat go there that a train load it some tiles away
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19:25:04  <supermop> samu was concerned about the wording of the strings for options to control patch behavior, and my contention was that there were too many options, and that you would need a clear picture of how the patch would be used to better inform what settings to provide
19:26:05  * andythenorth back to Steeltown
19:26:06  <supermop> ST2: if you content that the transport company must go do the fishing themselves, then shouldn't the transport company also send carts down into the mineshafts?
19:26:30  <ST2> some months ago found a weird behaviour when IsOilRig(tile) returned true on bridge heads (endings)
19:26:32  <andythenorth> I want another cluster like this, but late-game
19:26:41  <andythenorth> so further up the Steel chain
19:26:57  <supermop> maybe a dock next to the fishing grounds is where the local fishermen bring their catch ashore
19:26:59  <andythenorth> vehicles does't deliver that
19:27:16  <Samu> supermop seems to want more settings :)
19:27:23  <supermop> and the contract with you to take it by reefer truck into the packing plant
19:27:30  <supermop> Samu: nope
19:27:39  <supermop> 2 at most, preferably 1
19:28:08  <Samu> do the behaviour "x", except for docks or helistations
19:28:41  <Samu> so you're allowed to make dock station but not a train station :)
19:29:05  <supermop> ST2: also we dont have mail trucks stop at every house in town, only enough central locations to cover the town
19:29:39  <supermop> Samu: that would never work - what if my station has both dock and train?
19:30:01  <supermop> what if the train is there but does not collect oil but some other cargo
19:30:09  <ST2> personally I don't like the join distant station parts feature - but, gladly, there's a setting to enable/disable it ^^
19:30:41  <Samu> then i would need to go further deep in the code and make trains unable to load it
19:30:48  <Samu> why complicate :(
19:30:59  <supermop> i think you only need on and off
19:31:29  <supermop> ST2:
19:31:31  <Samu> ok, i can do that, 1 setting to rule them all
19:31:41  <supermop> why should one be different than the others?
19:31:45  <Samu> rip customization
19:32:34  <andythenorth> 3 kinds of steel :P
19:32:40  * andythenorth looking for ideas
19:32:42  <supermop> Samu: proliferation of options and settings just makes things more confusing
19:32:59  <Cubey> How about one setting to control the behavior of water industries' built-in station and a second to control user built station near water industries
19:33:01  <Samu> i see, will try to reduce from 4 to 2
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19:33:43  <supermop> either leave patch turned off, and players enforce their own constraints on their play style, or turn patch on, and enforce exclusive use of the built-in station
19:34:10  <Cubey> But what about controlling whether the built in station also draws cargo from nearby industries?
19:34:42  <Samu> two oil rigs together
19:34:45  <Samu> gotta test that
19:34:46  <supermop> Cubey: if you care about 1, you likely care about the other
19:35:25  <supermop> what i was prodding samu about, to explain his reason for the patch, was to see if there was actually any need at all for that nuance
19:35:47  <andythenorth> what about transfers?
19:35:51  <Cubey> Yeah like you said for the options to make sense, it's the use cases you need to think about
19:35:51  <ST2> only myself would put 27 servers using it :P
19:36:34  <supermop> if samu and ST2 say 'force use of the neutral station' and andy and i say 'allow player to build as they please'
19:36:46  <ST2> I didn't say to force
19:36:57  <ST2> for me, the default it's as it's now
19:37:01  <supermop> does anyone say 'force use of the neutral staion for case x, but not for case y'?
19:37:03  <ST2> but make it an option
19:37:30  <supermop> if no one needs that middle 3rd way, samu only needs 1 setting, not 2 or 4
19:37:39  <Cubey> I think the issue of neutral stations having a catchment area like normal stations is a separate question from whether the user is "forced" to use neutral stations or not
19:37:47  <ST2> there I'm not inside the details ^^
19:37:54  <supermop> saves a lot of string writing
19:38:20  <Cubey> One or two options would both be better than four
19:38:24  <supermop> Cubey: it is a separate issue, but is there a use case for it having a separate setting?
19:38:39  <ST2> but yeah, I'll go with the KISS approach :D
19:38:59  <Cubey> Let's say I've already decided to prevent normal stations from being able to catch oil rigs' oil, so I enable that setting in the patch
19:39:11  <supermop> also yes, like andy said, there is the age old 'transfer hack'
19:39:14  <Cubey> Now I still have to decide whether I want oil rigs' neutral stations to catch fish from nearby fisheries
19:39:48  <Cubey> Personally I just wouldn't touch that option, I see no reason why you'd ever need to change it from the default behavior
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19:40:02  <supermop> i think if you think it looks wrong for a dock on shore to get oil, you probably think it looks wrong for fishing boats to stop at an oil platform
19:40:03  <Cubey> But it seems like Samu wanted this patch to also provide an option to change that behavior
19:40:54  <supermop> Samu: what happens if i want to unload a bunch of iron ore at an oil rig, for another boat to pick up
19:41:14  <Samu> do you mean with cargodist enabled?
19:41:21  <supermop> no, without
19:41:45  <Samu> you can unload there, it stays in the station
19:41:47  <Cubey> That seems to have nothing to do with this patch, which only controls what cargos are supplied and accepted by which stations
19:41:54  <Samu> some other player however, can go pick it up
19:42:01  <Samu> it's shared :8
19:43:06  <supermop> it might be better to remove the dock from oil rigs entirely
19:43:23  <supermop> and let players build their own moorings
19:43:32  <Samu> :|
19:43:52  <supermop> ie patch in a dock that is built at sea, like abouy
19:44:20  <supermop> that way player has their own control over station rating
19:44:36  <supermop> but would not block others
19:45:37  <Samu> "claim this industry for me"
19:45:50  <Samu> "oh, but not really just for me"
19:46:03  <Samu> sorry
19:49:52  <Samu> first come first served - first company sending a vehicle arriving at a neutral station will claim the station as theirs
19:50:12  <Samu> sounds like a neat idea, for another patch
19:50:58  <Samu> a bit drastic, though
19:51:09  <Samu> but... seems possible to do
20:00:04  <Samu> looks like i found a possible bug
20:00:41  <Samu> 2 oil rigs with the setting disabled, with a ship loading at one of them, will trigger production on both oil rigs
20:00:57  <Samu> let's see if i can split it appart
20:01:28  <ST2> known, because it has a station so, coverage too
20:01:55  <ST2> not no idea if intended ^^
20:02:19  <Samu> my idea was to only make the ship trigger production on the industry it's on
20:02:42  <Samu> kinda like i did for acceptance
20:03:05  <Samu> if I did for acceptance, i should also do it for production
20:07:41  <Samu> MoveGoodsToStation needs moar editing
20:08:01  <Samu> i need to pass around the IndustryIndex to MoveGoodsToStation
20:08:11  <Samu> hmm wondering how am i doing tat
20:08:13  <Samu> that
20:11:20  <Samu> or maybe FindStationsAroundTiles
20:11:39  <Samu> make it not  find certain station
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20:40:32  <andythenorth> what could go in an electrical chain?
20:40:39  <Wolf01> Electrons
20:40:50  <andythenorth> winning
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20:45:42  <andythenorth> want something like this
20:45:46  <andythenorth> that then combines with steel
20:46:14  * andythenorth has been persuaded against chemicals chain :P
20:47:44  <Wolf01> Mmmh
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20:50:52  <zerm> Is there a way to get apt-get repositories to automatically update to 1.7.1?  I'm new to linux (currently using lubuntu LTS 16.10), not sure if using sudo apt-get remove openttd* was sufficent to uninstall 1.5.3...  my goal is to completely erase the game and all components and reinstall to latest version.  Also, if I have to use binary, do I have to move the binary to where I want to install it before running commands?
20:51:33  <zerm> I know it's a rediculous question.  Using as guide and have googled other stuff.  Wondering if there's a updated repository I can point to.
20:52:12  <andythenorth> chemicals chain would give pvc, combined with copper for wire, then steel for machines
20:54:35  <andythenorth>
20:54:46  <Wolf01> Silicon, a lot of silicon
20:54:53  <Wolf01> Also rare earths
20:55:51  <Wolf01> And now, /me -> bed, tomorrow I need to get up early to sign the job contract
20:56:08  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:56:50  <andythenorth> job contract :o
20:56:57  <andythenorth> wolf01 has left the building :)
20:57:16  <andythenorth> frosch123: PVC isn't yogurt pots, right? o_O
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20:59:54  <zerm> i got it, thanks guys!!!
21:02:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: or bakelite?
21:03:08  <andythenorth> bakelite is resins?
21:03:37  <frosch123> it's the first plastic from syntetics
21:03:40  <frosch123> 1907
21:04:22  <andythenorth> I want to try two big complex chains
21:04:27  <andythenorth> there's enough room in cargos
21:04:30  <frosch123>
21:05:18  <andythenorth> I don't think FIRS justifies another heavy industry economy, so it has to be this one :)
21:05:45  <andythenorth> chain 1, chain 2 -> goods, vehicles, maybe BDMT
21:05:59  <andythenorth> maybe packaging
21:06:12  <andythenorth> ports are fed by side products from the long chains
21:06:35  <andythenorth> ensp is a problem, it's a terrible pinnacle cargo
21:08:40  <andythenorth> need a primary that produces ensp :P
21:13:41  <supermop> buldozer farm
21:14:22  <supermop> lately i don't even use ensp
21:14:37  <supermop> = too much cargo to use
21:19:54  <andythenorth> interesting point
21:20:11  <andythenorth> ensp can be a helpful design constraint, but it's also a total pain in the arse :)
21:20:50  <andythenorth> plastic tankers
21:25:44  <andythenorth> supermop: does this fit steeltown aesthetic, or no?
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21:41:13  <supermop> andythenorth: largely
21:41:20  <supermop> has enough rust color
21:41:49  <supermop> smoke stacks look a bit modern
21:42:05  <supermop> force CC to dark grey before 1940?
21:42:48  <andythenorth> maybe :P
21:42:54  <supermop> distillation columns look good bolt-y
21:43:06  <andythenorth> coke oven -> coal tar -> medicine -> port/town?
21:43:51  <andythenorth> coal tar is on the World Health Organisation's list of essential medicines :P
21:43:53  <supermop> haha will you enforce acetaminophen/paracetamol/whatever aussies call it by region?
21:44:09  <andythenorth> got en-us and en-au :P
21:45:27  <supermop> panaadol
21:45:31  <supermop> panadol
21:45:44  <supermop> i remeber it being different that uk or us
21:49:11  <andythenorth> brand names
21:49:35  <supermop> huh. i could have sworn acetaminophen came from coal tar, but wikipedia doesn't mention it
21:49:38  * andythenorth took paracetamol and acetaminophen together for a period of time
21:49:45  <andythenorth> oops
21:49:53  <supermop> maybe was thinking of aspirin or something
21:49:57  <andythenorth> it's on the coal tar page
21:50:05  * andythenorth just closed it
21:50:27  <supermop> paracetamol has nothing about the industrial synthesis
21:51:35  <supermop> even the historical note is not very informative
21:53:36  <supermop> creosote?
21:53:59  <supermop> creosote+wood = ensp + bdmt
21:54:14  <supermop> i guess that is just like the lumber yard tho
21:55:25  <supermop> coal tar distillery - > medicine, shampoo, parking lot sealant, railroad ties
21:55:31  <andythenorth> that is the lumber yard :)
21:55:42  <andythenorth> it has a creosote kiln
21:57:01  <supermop> i had always assumed the 'chemicals' were either glue for plywood, or the green stuff they permeate 4x4s with to make deck posts
21:57:12  <andythenorth> could be any of those
21:57:23  <supermop> althought that green stuff is essentially creosote by use
21:57:38  <andythenorth> chemicals industry boggles my brain
21:57:45  <andythenorth> so many processes
21:57:57  <supermop> the stuff that comes from the lumber yard is not brown though - its blond like plywood
21:58:07  <andythenorth> this is true
21:58:12  <supermop> so is the suff that gets delivered there though
21:58:20  <andythenorth> doesn't do much eh
21:58:27  * andythenorth must sleep
21:58:35  <andythenorth> ultimate Steeltown must wait...again
21:58:40  <supermop> blond wood + chemicals = blond wood
21:58:51  <andythenorth> *superior* blond wood
21:58:55  <supermop> haha
21:59:10  <supermop> the chemicals are the brand labels they attach
21:59:10  <andythenorth> discussion of material honesty will have to wait for another day
21:59:14  <andythenorth> ha
21:59:15  <supermop> later dude
21:59:17  <andythenorth> bye
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23:27:22  <Samu> I did it
23:27:23  <Samu>
23:27:57  <Samu> ship is loading oil from only one oil rig, it doesn't trigger production of the other oil rig
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23:28:18  <Samu> ST2: supermop  :)
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23:33:27  <Samu> this one is tricky, because it is both the "oil rig" station and the "other station" at the same time
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23:35:53  <Samu> it's both settings 3 and 4
23:36:21  <Samu> i need to cut this to 2 settings
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