Log for #openttd on 31st October 2017:
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01:07:36  <newgrfquestion> hi.  is there someone here that knows about newgrf parameters for a dedicated openttd server?
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01:30:15  <newgrfquestion> is there a wiki or any other website that can help one set up newgrf parameters without a gui?
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01:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the easiest way is to set it up with a gui, and then copy either the savegame or the config section over to the headless server
01:39:01  <newgrfquestion> yeah thats the problem,
01:39:12  <newgrfquestion> the server is on a vm and he doesnt have access to a gui. he says it has to be all cmd line
01:39:23  <newgrfquestion> so is there an rcon command to change the parameters?
01:39:51  <newgrfquestion> he changed the openttd.cfg file but that apparently doesnt list the newgrf parameters
01:39:55  <newgrfquestion> checked*
01:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it does, but only if they differ from the default, i guess
01:42:46  <newgrfquestion> so how would would change the parameters for FIRS?
01:43:07  <newgrfquestion> is it possible just thru the openttd.cfg? i didnt see a listed for parameters there
01:43:16  <newgrfquestion> only a basic list of newgrfs currently running
01:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a [newgrf] section, but in the [preset-<whatever>] sections it's something like this: "nutracks-1.1.1/nutracks.grf = 0 2 0 0 80 125 180 230"
01:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the [newgrf] section also includes the md5 sum of the grf, i think
01:46:20  <newgrfquestion> have you used FIRS before?
01:46:29  <newgrfquestion> i just need to figure out which number changes the economy
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01:51:19  <newgrfquestion> Eddi|zuHause: thanks!  also, do you know of an alternative to the openttd wiki that lists more information too?
01:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which parameter does what you need to check in the specific newgrf documentation
01:54:40  <newgrfquestion> well from the string of numbers, is it the first one that determines the economy in FIRS?
02:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> order should be the same as in the parameter gui
02:16:07  <newgrfquestion> i see
02:25:48  <Cubey> The openttdcoop wiki has a lot of information but some of it is specific to their server
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02:32:46  <newgrfquestion> do you know of a more generalized wiki for openttd besides the default one?
02:32:57  <newgrfquestion> the old openttd wiki has too many holes in it
02:33:17  <newgrfquestion> this is the old one:
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04:26:34  <Flygon> Oh man.
04:26:38  <Flygon> I used that Wiki when I was new.
04:26:44  <Flygon> And it's outdatedness, uh, bit.
04:28:02  <newgrfquestion> Flygon: whats a better wiki to use for openttd
04:30:57  <Flygon> I don't think one exists.
04:31:16  <Flygon> I mostly got my way through trial and error, asking the IRC for help, and asking the forums for help.
04:31:58  <planetmaker> newgrfquestion, the wiki is written and updated by people like you...
04:32:26  <planetmaker> Besides that the wiki is moderately accurate
04:33:00  <planetmaker> NewGRF parameters for a server are no different than for a single player game
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05:54:40  <PressureLine> Happy Halloween!
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08:11:34  <PressureLine> So.
08:12:01  <PressureLine> made a crazy 'OpenTTD Calculations spreadsheet'
08:14:08  <PressureLine>
08:29:48  <PressureLine> but the real question is, is 1100kW cutting it too close for a load that needs 1070kW to hit 80kph on level ground?
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08:40:45  <PressureLine> well. it appears to be
08:41:31  <PressureLine> also: andy, it appears your trams really don't like driving on the RHS of the road :(
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09:06:11  <andythenorth> PressureLine: I've seen this in HEQS too
09:06:44  <andythenorth> have you confirmed it's definitely the RHS that has problems, not both sides?
09:09:27  <PressureLine> yes
09:10:05  <PressureLine>
09:10:24  <PressureLine> fine for left hand driving
09:11:37  <PressureLine> not fine for right hand driving
09:11:39  <PressureLine>
09:12:37  <andythenorth> ok
09:12:42  <andythenorth> so it's not just me then
09:14:55  <andythenorth> thanks
09:14:58  * andythenorth bbl
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10:54:12  <Wolf01> o/
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10:58:04  <Samu> good day
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13:33:25  <supermop> yo
13:33:56  <Wolf01> o/
13:34:25  <supermop> hows it going in italy?
13:34:37  <Wolf01> Same shit
13:35:40  <Wolf01> Today I signed the job contract, 3 months at 500€/month... I need 800€/month at least :(
13:36:28  <__ln__> how many hours per week is that?
13:36:32  <Wolf01> 40
13:36:34  <__ln__> wtf
13:36:38  <Wolf01> Yes
13:36:53  <__ln__> how many minutes do italian hours have
13:37:29  <Wolf01> The usual 60
13:37:41  <supermop> that does seems low
13:37:58  <supermop> what is the minimum wage in italy?
13:38:15  <Wolf01> Ahaha, I think the minimum does not exists
13:38:49  <Wolf01> Depends to the collective contract, but if you aren't covered by that then shit
13:40:06  <Wolf01> At least I won't be subject to overtime
13:40:15  <supermop> there isn't a national minimum>
13:40:29  <supermop> not even some basic EU mandated one?
13:41:04  <Wolf01> Maybe, but they do what they want anyway
13:41:28  <supermop> federal minimum here is 7.25
13:41:42  <supermop> of course NY state is higher
13:42:30  <supermop> but the issue here is more that people often only get scheduled for like 20-30 hours a week when they are at those levels, and then need to get 2nd or 3rd jobs
13:43:10  <supermop> of course if you are on salary, there is basically no limit on how long you work
13:43:19  <Wolf01> But this should be a transition period, then I'll be hired (I hope) like others and get ~1200€/month
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13:43:41  <__ln__> ~1200€/month for what kind of work?
13:43:46  <Wolf01> Developer
13:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems really low
13:44:06  <Wolf01> And that's really the minimum
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13:44:19  <supermop> 1200/month seems very low for developer
13:44:19  <__ln__> indeed really low
13:44:46  <supermop> that is below poverty line in US
13:45:03  <supermop> Wolf01: you should move to the US, as bad as it is here
13:45:34  <Wolf01> They use the trade collective contract which has low salary but 14 paydays (2 of them are semestral and about 60% of the base salary)
13:45:37  <supermop> in NYC developer salary is about 10x that
13:46:02  <supermop> well not quite 10x
13:46:08  <supermop> but could be
13:46:11  <SpComb> that doesn't sound like a living wage in the EU
13:46:44  <Wolf01> If they were metalworkers (hardware maintainers usually are) I would get 1500€/month but 13 paydays
13:47:20  <Wolf01> Eh, I know, that's why I'm not able to move out from home... at least not on my own
13:48:29  <supermop> if you are under 30, maybe you should go to Aus. on working holiday, and do 6 month contract jobs
13:48:46  <supermop> then maybe make a connection who will pay to sponsor you to go there after
13:48:52  <Wolf01> I'm over 30, and that's why I didn't find other jobs here too
13:48:59  <supermop> :(
13:49:39  <Wolf01> Also, the shitty thing is that the company is at 40km from home and I'll spend 260-300€ on fuel every month doing basic calculations
13:50:01  <Wolf01> This mean: I won't get anywhere with 200€/month
13:52:55  <__ln__> are you good enough developer to get hired somewhere abroad? if you start looking for opportunities farther away...
13:55:08  <Wolf01> No, I don't think I'm good enough, maybe for prototyping yes, I know many things and about everything from hardware to software, networks, plc, but all academic or for personal culture... also I won't move out by myself
13:55:44  <__ln__> people do move out by themselves
13:56:08  <V453000> I find it dumb to talk about money across countries, in czech republic 1500 euros per month wouldn't be a golden mine but it would be fine for you
13:56:10  <V453000> for example
13:56:21  <V453000> of course NYC salaries will be higher but with it every other expense
13:57:39  <Wolf01> Yes, but they are right, <800€ here you are below the poverty threshold
13:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i make quite a bit more than that, and still think i'm rather at the lower end
13:58:35  <V453000> idk how do italy prices compare to eddiland
13:58:36  <Wolf01> And to be able to rent a room you need at least 350€ for a single room with the WC in the kitchen
13:59:10  <Wolf01> And you have to pay for the light, phone, gas too
13:59:49  <__ln__> who needs light or phone
14:00:21  <Wolf01> Fucking internet when you aren't at work and you can't afford the pub
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14:09:05  <supermop> V453000: i would have assumed that italy would be slightly cheaper than non-NYC US, but not that much cheaper
14:09:38  <supermop> when my grandmother died, we sold her house for 20000USD, which was pretty decent price for the area
14:09:58  <__ln__> my impression is that italy certainly isn't at the czech republic level of cheap
14:10:28  <supermop> i would have assumed that no where in Italy could you buy a nice 3 bedroom home for 20000
14:10:36  <V453000> I was just trying to point out that it's all relative :)
14:11:13  <Wolf01> Lol, here a house cost from 70k to 250k€, and the rents are really high too
14:11:43  <__ln__> when i visited prague and plzen, i was like "what do i do with all this cash when nothing costs nearly nothing"
14:11:54  <V453000> haha
14:12:16  <__ln__> and i hadn't reserved particularly much cash
14:13:10  <Wolf01> I found that Japan was cheaper than Shitaly in many many things, also more comfortable for commuting
14:17:21  <Wolf01> For example we stayed at a ryokan in Kyoto, my friend "ok, this time you have seen how a ryokan is, next time a capsule hotel" my answer "wtf that was like a 5 star hotel in Italy, and we paid only for a 3 star one, ryokan for the life"
14:26:40  <supermop> if you factor in the meals at a ryokan, it really is a great deal
14:27:04  <Wolf01> Yes
14:27:17  <Wolf01> Meal, room service, rooms too
14:27:20  <supermop> best two meals i had on my last japan trip were the dinner and breakfast at the ryokan
14:27:29  <supermop> onsen on site
14:27:32  <supermop> at this one
14:34:03  <Samu> hi there
14:34:32  <Samu> why is that this function DeliverGoodsToIndustry
14:34:40  <Samu> can deal with town cargo as well
14:34:44  <Samu> but be named like that
14:36:23  <Samu> oh i see
14:36:33  <Samu> INVALID_INDUSTRY
14:36:41  <Samu> a town is an invalid industry
14:38:41  <Samu> so if there's an industry accepting passengers and a house accepting passengers
14:38:52  <Samu> the industry will be checked first
14:39:31  <Samu> should be the opposite, to make sense, but yeah, this is not real life
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14:43:37  <V453000> some guy is asking me "what file to modify to increase max number of vehicles" ... apparently he is compiling his own openttd, or has someone compile it for him
14:43:49  <V453000> is there some simple answer I could pass to him?
14:44:16  <LordAro> "no"
14:44:25  <frosch123> vehicles as in "articulated parts" or vehicles as in "max 5000 trains per company"?
14:44:39  <V453000> max 5000 RVs per company
14:44:45  <frosch123> settings.ini probably
14:44:45  <V453000> he already has a version which allows 20 000 apparently
14:45:03  <frosch123> src/table/settings.ini or something
14:45:06  <Wolf01> Just look for 20000 and change it :D
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14:45:27  <V453000> Wolf01: :P
14:45:39  <V453000> his cpu can reportedly somehow manage 20k
14:45:51  <V453000> 'it's a bit slower but eh' he says
14:45:52  <V453000> :D
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14:46:13  <V453000> frosch123: what's the maximum articulated amount? :D
14:46:24  <Samu> i tried 65536 vehicles or so before
14:46:31  <frosch123> V453000:
14:46:35  <Wolf01> So he wants 50k maybe, it's already slow and it will be twice as slow, but who cares? :D
14:46:46  <V453000> frosch123: thank you :)
14:46:58  <frosch123> V453000: i think all articulated parts of all consists of all companies may not exceed 24 million or so
14:47:00  <Samu> you have to edit the GUI thing to accept 5 digits
14:47:06  <Samu> or you can only type 4
14:47:08  <V453000> :D oh
14:47:42  <V453000> that sounds pretty damn hard to reach
14:47:52  <V453000> even if you use 1/8 articulation and have 5 tile trains
14:47:54  <frosch123> hmm, it's way lower
14:47:59  <frosch123> @calc 0xFF000
14:47:59  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 1044480
14:48:04  <frosch123> one million :)
14:48:11  <V453000> still
14:48:32  <Samu> @calc 65536 * 15
14:48:32  <DorpsGek> Samu: 983040
14:48:35  <Samu> gits
14:48:36  <frosch123> prevously it was 64k, which was reached by someone
14:48:51  <V453000> hm
14:49:01  <V453000> sounds pretty nuts
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14:55:48  <Samu> peter1138: here's a but for u
14:55:57  <Samu> void AddCargoDelivery(CargoID cargo_type, CompanyID company, uint32 amount, SourceType src_type, SourceID src, const Station *st)
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14:56:12  <V453000> frosch123: LiukSK thanks you :P
14:56:18  <V453000> he's sending slug army your way
14:56:27  <Samu> bug*
14:57:06  <Samu> teh cargo monitor code doesn't do the same as the DeliverGoodsToIndustry
14:59:25  <Samu> if delivergoodstoindustry does 10 to industry A and 0 to industry B, cargo monitor will do 10 to industry a and 10 to industry B
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15:24:20  <Borg> yoo..
15:24:42  <Borg> dont you think that multihead trains (those w/ 2 locos, A i B) are broken in OpenTTD?
15:25:02  <Borg> only for cases where loco can carry pasanger cars, they should never be actually splitted
15:27:37  <Samu> multi engines?
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15:30:14  <frosch123> that kind of stuff is controlled by newgrf
15:30:27  <frosch123> if you don't like the behaviour, use a different newgrf
15:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: some newgrfs forbid you to put anything other than passenger cars on them
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15:39:51  <frosch123> what to do when your grf takes 14 minutes to compile?
15:41:24  <Samu> buy more cores
15:42:22  <Samu> supermop: i just converted 4 settings into 1
15:42:30  <V453000> how many sprites now frosch123?
15:43:08  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARE_INDUSTRY_STATION_CARGO                 :Share neutral stations cargoes with company stations: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARE_INDUSTRY_STATION_CARGO_HELPTEXT        :When enabled, any cargo accepted or supplied on industry stations may also be accepted or supplied on company owned stations. When disabled, the cargoes accepted or supplied on neutral stations is only for the industry it's attached to
15:43:20  <Samu> is it clear, or needs english fixes?
15:43:29  <frosch123> 12k to 800k depending how you count
15:43:42  <V453000> :D 800 thousand sprites?
15:43:43  <V453000> ok
15:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like CETS
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15:48:49  <frosch123> wtf, this time python crashed
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15:51:07  <V453000> nice
15:51:49  <V453000> btw what is the part which makes a difference in an item between wagon and engine?
15:51:56  <V453000> no refittable cargo classes/labels?
15:52:11  <V453000> no, cabooses and shit still are wagons, right?
15:52:24  <frosch123> iirc it's "power"
15:52:31  <V453000> oh, interesting
15:53:01  <V453000> thanks :) I completely forgot that and from looking at nuts I couldn't eyeball it fast enough :D
15:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds also like CETS
15:56:00  <frosch123> it was no oom or similar
15:56:08  <frosch123> i only marginally changed some pixels
15:57:02  <frosch123> mem usage is actually quite low
15:57:16  <frosch123> the nml is simple, just very long
15:57:38  <frosch123> flat structure, no deep links or similar
15:57:52  <frosch123> also it crashed at the very end when writing the output
15:57:56  <frosch123> disk is not full :p
15:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> problem with CETS usually was ply not working well with large files
15:59:22  <V453000> :0
15:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is better in python3
16:01:21  <frosch123> hmm acutally memusage increases a lot during "generating actions"
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16:05:11  <newgrfquestion> is there a way to tell a train to split the cargo at 2 destinations or more?
16:05:39  <newgrfquestion> so if a train is hauling multiple cars of oil, how do I tell it to split that between 2 stations or more?
16:05:53  <Progman> is cargodist an option
16:05:54  <Progman> ?
16:06:02  <newgrfquestion> no the server doesnt have that enabled
16:06:28  <newgrfquestion> do i need another NewGRF to get that to work?
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16:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no, newgrf has no influence on that
16:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can unload at an intermediate station, and have two smaller trains load
16:17:45  <Borg> frosch123: ahh.. yeah, I use plain orginal gfx..
16:20:48  <newgrfquestion> Eddi|zuHause: but theres no way to just tell a large train to split it?
16:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:21:47  <newgrfquestion> well thats disappointing
16:22:40  <newgrfquestion> maybe a possible feature in a future version?
16:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a patch
16:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but the general consensus is to not add more complicated order stuff before the order gui gets cleaned up
16:23:56  <Cubey> Cargodist already exists anyway
16:28:03  <newgrfquestion> there going to change the gui soon?
16:28:06  <newgrfquestion> theyre*
16:29:26  <LordAro> define "soon"
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16:32:20  <Samu> i'm looking for english expert once again. I reduced the number of settings from 4 to 1, merged all the behaviours into just 1 setting, how do i title it?
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16:34:57  <Samu> Allow water-based industries cargoes on company stations?
16:35:26  <LordAro> that sounds fine
16:35:42  <Samu> oki, ty
16:36:31  <debdog> not knowing what's going on, but it might be "Allow water-based industrie's cargoes on company stations"
16:37:34  <Samu> debdog:it's this
16:38:26  <Samu> industrie's?
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16:39:26  <LordAro> "industries'", if anything
16:39:44  <Samu> ok
16:40:04  <debdog> ok
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16:41:00  <LordAro> (note the trailing ')
16:41:05  <Samu> i see
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16:41:16  <Samu> Allow water-based industries' cargoes on company stations: {STRING2}
16:41:44  <Samu> and now, how to describe it, HELPTEXT
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16:47:33  <Samu> "When enabled, any cargo acceptance or suppliance of an industry with an attached station (such as Oil Rigs) may also be accepted or supplied on company owned stations."
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16:47:56  <Samu> here comes hell
16:48:20  <Samu> When disabled, insert hellish description
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16:55:56  <Samu> "When disabled, industries with an attached station may only serve the industries they're paired with, and any company stations nearby won't be able to serve them."
16:59:39  <Samu> Company owned stations may serve water-based industries
16:59:58  <Samu> Allow company owned stations to serve water industries
17:00:05  <Samu> hmm
17:00:16  <Samu> seems more right to the point
17:04:51  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARE_INDUSTRY_STATION_CARGO_HELPTEXT        :When enabled, serving industries with attached stations (such as Oil Rigs) may also be served on company owned stations when built nearby. When disabled, industries with an attached station may only serve the industries they're paired with, and any company stations nearby won't be able to serve them
17:05:17  <Samu> if built nearby
17:07:15  <Samu> is it serving, or servicing?
17:20:15  <Samu>
17:20:45  <Samu> supermop: 1 setting for all 4 behaviours, u there?
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18:24:19  <Cubey> Samu hey that looks pretty good, "Allow company owned stations to serve water industries" is direct and suitably descriptive
18:25:03  <Cubey> The "water industries" term is a bit novel as we discussed yesterday, but since it is explained in the helptext with the helpful example of oil rigs, it is fine
18:25:39  <Samu> :D
18:26:20  <Cubey> I would clean up the helptext a little, maybe "When enabled, industries with attached stations (such as Oil Rigs) may also be served by company owned stations built nearby." for the first sentence
18:27:33  <Cubey> "When disabled, these industries may only be served by their attached stations, and any nearby company owned stations won't be able to serve them."
18:27:39  <Cubey> For the second sentence
18:27:45  <Samu> thx, i'm taking note
18:28:41  <Cubey> When I first saw this yesterday, it was not clear to me what the purpose of the patch was. Now i think it is pretty self-explanatory, as it should be
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18:29:52  <Samu> it kind of feels bad removing stuff that was already done
18:29:57  <Samu> but it simplifies
18:31:56  <Cubey> Yeah it's like editing in writing
18:32:29  <Cubey> Sometimes trimming the fat is the best way to improve the whole, even though it feels like erasing work you've already done
18:33:01  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SERVE_WATER_INDUSTRIES_HELPTEXT              :When enabled, industries with attached stations (such as Oil Rigs) may also be served by company owned stations built nearby. When disabled, these industries may only be served by their attached stations, and any nearby company stations won't be able to serve them
18:33:35  <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SERVE_WATER_INDUSTRIES                       :Allow company owned stations to serve water industries: {STRING2}
18:34:29  <Cubey> I wonder if you should just carry over the "industries with attached stations" terminology from the helptext over to the main string
18:35:21  <Cubey> However others might disagree if they see "water industries" as an established shorthand for that
18:35:34  <Samu> yes, there's still some size left before horizontal scrolling
18:36:30  <Cubey> I worry a little bit about people misunderstanding "attached stations" to mean something like "stations placed directly adjacent to the industry"
18:36:54  <Samu> sometimes I call them "neutral stations"
18:37:37  <Cubey> Both are descriptive yet somewhat problematic
18:38:01  <Cubey> So I guess it just comes down to the helptext to cover the ambiguity
18:39:01  <Samu> i've been adding comments in the code, and damn, it's really hard to explain everything, feels like I'm writing a book just for a line of code
18:39:29  <Samu> 		/* Oil rig cargo is served by none other than Oil Rig stations, unless the setting is enabled */ 		if (on_water && !IsOilRigTile(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.serve_water_industries) continue;
18:39:52  <Samu> this one is short, but i got some big ones
18:40:07  <Samu> 		/* Special case when there's more than one Oil Rig. Cargo served to Oil Rig station #1 comes only from Oil Rig #1 and not from any other Oil Rig */ 		if (on_water && IsOilRigTile(st->xy) && source_type == ST_INDUSTRY && !IsStationIndustryPair(st, source_id) && !_settings_game.station.serve_water_industries) continue;
18:41:40  <Samu> 		/* The station accepting the cargo is a neutral station (station 1) belonging to an industry (industry 1), 		 * but there may be other neutral stations nearby (station n) belonging to their respective industries (industry n). 		 * Is the station accepting the cargo (station 1) a part of the industry it's attached to (industry 1)? */
18:42:01  <Samu> if (HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsOilRigTile(st->xy) && !IsStationIndustryPair(st, ind->index) && !_settings_game.station.serve_water_industries) continue;
18:44:54  <Samu> i'm not uploading v4 yet, because i dunno what to do when the base code is also bugged
18:46:09  <Samu> CargoMonitor.cpp AddCargoDelivery
18:46:11  <Samu> line 121
18:48:11  <Samu> when it deals with industry delivery, it does not match the behaviour of DeliverGoodsToIndustry on economy.cpp
18:48:32  <Samu> the monitorizing is broken
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18:50:27  <Samu> are u a dev Cubey
18:51:06  <Samu> peter1138: u still away?
18:51:18  <Samu> wanted to report this bug before I proceed with my own changes
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18:59:31  <Samu> well anyway, thx cubey
19:00:34  <Samu> guess i'm posting v4 anyway
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19:20:37  <Wolf01> <Samu> i'm not uploading v4 yet, because i dunno what to do when the base code is also bugged <- fix the base code in a separate patch
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19:37:29  <Samu> damn it, why me? :(
19:37:58  <Samu> i fix it in a way, then 1.8.0 or so comes out and it's fixed in another way, and rips my code :(
19:40:45  <Samu> and usually you fix it better than me
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19:41:27  <andythenorth> o/
19:41:38  <Samu> hi andythenorth
19:42:38  <frosch123> o\
19:43:31  <andythenorth> is chlorine heavy industry enough? o_O
19:45:44  <frosch123> you can combine glass with some serious acids
19:47:19  <frosch123> glass + hydrofluoric acid -> goods
19:48:04  <frosch123>
19:48:10  <frosch123> also works with steel and copper
19:48:26  <frosch123> though those use way less serious stuff than hydrofluoric acid
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19:52:08  <andythenorth> I am going to add some badass chemicals cluster
19:52:48  <frosch123> chemicals and acids would also work with paper
19:53:18  <frosch123> both in paper production, and in making printing plates
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19:53:53  <frosch123> wood + chlor -> paper, steel + acid -> printing plate, paper + printing plate -> goods
19:56:41  <frosch123> hmm, no, printing plates actually use aluminum
19:56:49  <frosch123> so, drop that :)
19:59:12  <andythenorth> aluminium is possible
19:59:15  <andythenorth> but seems too modern
19:59:21  <andythenorth> even though it's not :P
19:59:44  <andythenorth> salt -> chlorine, caustic sod
19:59:49  <frosch123> yeah, so mechanical printing plate, no photo-plates :)
19:59:56  <andythenorth> caustic soda -> aluminium plant :P
20:00:19  <andythenorth> Arctic Basic has sulphuric acid -> paper mill btw
20:00:31  <andythenorth> generic 'chemicals' is less interesting than more detailed ones
20:01:00  <frosch123> yeah, hydrofluoric acid does hardly sound dangerous :p
20:01:11  <frosch123> it has "hydro" in it :)
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20:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and flour is also not dangerous at all
20:32:34  <debdog>
20:33:19  <andythenorth> flour kills
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20:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> debdog: i know, that was half of the joke :p
20:38:31  <debdog> hehe, soryy, not yet used to the humor in here
20:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (the other half being that "flour" and "fluor" are vastly different things)
20:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (and the third half is that "hydro", as in water, is the cause for like 90% of the damage caused by natural disasters)
20:44:40  <frosch123> also, water is de-hydrating
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21:03:08  <andythenorth> supermop: too shiny fro Steeltown?
21:03:39  <supermop> andythenorth: i've often wondered that
21:04:03  <supermop> i am too young to have ever seen non-shiny oilr refineries though
21:04:14  <andythenorth> I can do oil -> refinery, or use the tank farm as a source
21:04:24  <supermop> so i don't know if a dark one would look odd
21:04:31  <andythenorth> I never thought oil refinery fits in steeltown
21:04:37  <supermop> isn't tank farm equally shiny?
21:04:47  <supermop> we have them in the rust belt
21:04:55  <andythenorth> yes, but it doesn't matter somehow that it's shiny
21:05:36  <supermop> not exactly sure why, but they exist at some distance from most large american cities, even outside of oil producing regions
21:05:39  <frosch123> <- picture of old things also don't tell you how they looked when new
21:05:57  <frosch123> but i guess tanks should not be white
21:06:11  <supermop> i guess with fracking most of the rust belt is technically an oil producing region now
21:06:17  <andythenorth> wow
21:06:27  <supermop> agree with frosch123 - it's the tanks than make it look modern
21:06:54  <supermop> haha what is with the chlorine content marketing
21:07:06  <andythenorth> weird eh?
21:07:48  <supermop> espescially because consumers are rarely in a position to make a decision about buying chlorine
21:08:03  * andythenorth has chlorine
21:08:05  <supermop> if you have a pool, you don't really have a choice
21:08:05  <andythenorth> for hot tub
21:08:27  <supermop> andythenorth: the choice though is buy chlorine or lose the tub
21:08:37  <supermop> not buy chlorine or something else
21:08:38  <andythenorth> cargo label for caustic soda.  NaOH?
21:08:39  <andythenorth>
21:08:46  <andythenorth> there is bromine alternative
21:08:50  <andythenorth> or getting diseases
21:08:53  <andythenorth> both valid options
21:09:11  <supermop> i think your hot tub will clog up with algae first
21:09:21  <andythenorth> nah, there is separate algaecide
21:09:34  <andythenorth> there is a thing called hot tub ear
21:09:40  <supermop> pool might not notice it going bad until you get some amoeba eating your brain
21:09:43  <andythenorth> which breeds nicely at 39 degrees
21:10:08  <andythenorth> so NAOH, or CAUS?
21:10:21  <andythenorth> or LYE_
21:10:24  <andythenorth> LYE_ is best
21:13:50  <V453000> I see a flexible cargo system is more than a requirement for a train set which is hoping to cope with andy's ideas :D
21:14:28  <supermop> hmm bad day to be a cyclist here
21:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that is an almost impossible task :p
21:15:17  <V453000> almost
21:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: just imagine you're MB, and you released a popular set 12 years ago, and made some halfbaked inflexible cargo addon 5 years ago
21:16:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: SOAP ?
21:16:54  <V453000> imagining failed
21:23:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: SOAP tempting
21:23:29  <andythenorth> might be quite...aggressive at cleaning
21:23:44  * andythenorth will use it
21:24:04  <andythenorth> or CAUS
21:24:07  <andythenorth> eh
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21:24:34  <andythenorth> there is soda ash already, which makes me think lye is better
21:26:16  <frosch123> soda lye
21:26:51  <glx> I think vehicles should just be designed to carry a kind of cargo but not an explicit cargo
21:27:06  <glx> like liquid cargo
21:27:12  <frosch123> if soda ash is SASH, then sody lye should be SLYE
21:27:48  <frosch123> glx: V drew sprites for 100 cargos or so
21:28:35  <glx> even cargo not imagined by andy yet ?
21:28:37  <andythenorth> glx: interesting idea, you should circulate a newsletter ;)
21:28:42  <andythenorth> or maybe a forum post
21:29:17  <frosch123> [22:28] <glx> even cargo not imagined by andy yet ? <- V453000: up for the challenge? :p
21:29:36  <frosch123> predict what andy adds next
21:30:36  <frosch123> i go for "whey"
21:33:52  <andythenorth> interesting idea
21:33:57  <andythenorth> I hadn't considered that
21:33:59  <andythenorth> also spiders?
21:34:16  <andythenorth>
21:34:41  <andythenorth> what is whey?
21:35:16  <andythenorth> also, label for Chlorine?
21:35:39  <glx> _CL_
21:36:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: whey would go into the chemical economy
21:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> CLRN
21:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> vowels are just decoration anyway
21:37:16  <andythenorth> frosch123 is it not better in the Cheese economy? :o
21:37:53  <frosch123> it's a side-product of cheese, and input to chemicals
21:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the greeks who started this vowel business, everyone else was happy with just writing down the consonants
21:38:28  <glx> yeah rmss was so easy
21:39:14  <Samu> sorry about that :(
21:44:01  <Samu> there is a bug with AddCargoDelivery, wish someone else than me could fix it
21:47:33  <andythenorth> ok I am running out of room for cargos now in this steel-punk economy :)
21:47:54  <andythenorth> historically, it has been harder to add cargos to FIRS than remove them :D
21:48:31  <andythenorth> does the game actually work if there's no goods?
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21:54:36  <Samu> here's the bug in action:
21:55:15  <Samu> busybee tells me to send wood to Rinfingpool Bridge Sawmill
21:55:36  <Samu> but it's Getborough Market Sawmill that is taking it
21:55:48  <Samu> and yet it still counts towards the goal
21:55:49  <ST2> known:
21:55:59  <Samu> the bug is not on busibee
21:56:03  <ST2> getting a solution, that's another story :S
21:56:05  <Samu> but on CargoMonitor
21:56:19  <Samu> the trunk, openttd itself
21:56:21  <andythenorth> electrical machines cargo, or goods?
21:56:28  <ST2> never explored to there ^^
21:57:23  <Samu> the monitoring function is not mimicing the behaviour of cargo delivery
21:58:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: the game may work better without goods :p
21:58:41  <frosch123> you can replace goods with vehicles
21:59:06  <andythenorth> also I can't fit in the full salt -> chlorine + ethylene -> pvc compounds + copper -> wires -> electrical machines chain :P
21:59:49  <Samu> looks like im gonna fix it myself
21:59:56  <Samu> lel, while i'm at it, why not
22:00:02  * andythenorth wonders how houses break if there's no goods
22:00:04  <andythenorth> also food
22:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no reason why the game wouldn't work without goods, but you probably should add TE_GOODS to some cargo, because citybuilder scripts will probably require one
22:02:04  <Samu> that bug you reported st2, seems to be about industry index
22:02:20  <andythenorth> probably I should just try it
22:02:29  <Samu> the iron ore probably existed, then closed, and a new industry popups taking the index that used to belong to the iron ore
22:02:36  <ST2> most can be be adjusted - no TE_GOODS won't matter on CB's - since all cargo types can be used for it, no need for TownEffect
22:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: i was using "citybuilder" as a generic term here, not for any specific script which may happen to be called citybuilder
22:03:43  <ST2> ok, then, I recall my words then ^^
22:04:10  <Samu> it seems yet again related to cargomonitoring logs once again
22:04:30  <Samu> i must investigate how industry indexes are generated
22:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i played through one game of civ6 in this (long) weekend, in 30 hours
22:05:23  <andythenorth> hmm chlorine plant -> hydrochloric acid -> steel finishing
22:05:52  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: I guess that both of us need to split on what a CityBuilder and a TownBuilder, since OpenTTD have different behaviours for both ^^
22:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> this would be the right time to start a new one, but i'm out of weekend
22:07:56  * andythenorth can't really fit a chlorine chain in this economy eh :P
22:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make a chlorine economy? :p
22:08:23  <andythenorth> I tested a chemicals economy, but meh
22:08:32  <andythenorth> lots of cargos in tank wagons
22:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with that?
22:09:02  <andythenorth> limited cargo graphics
22:09:14  <andythenorth> I could revisit it
22:09:23  <andythenorth> probably just needs a twist
22:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> a farming-focused economy probably could deal with lots of chemicals
22:10:41  <Samu> there can only be 65535 industries in the world, sounds small for a 4kx4k map
22:11:21  <andythenorth> that's the problem ass backwards samu :)
22:11:31  <andythenorth> 4kx4k map is stupid :)
22:12:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you produce chloring from salt?
22:12:06  <andythenorth> yes
22:12:12  <Samu> index from 0 to 65534, while 65535 is used for INVALID_INDUSTRY
22:13:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: I've pushed, waiting for bundles to update docs
22:16:04  <zerm> i seriously need to get better at making junctions
22:16:10  <zerm> like seriously
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22:20:42  <Samu> actually 64000
22:21:27  <Samu> INSTANTIATE_POOL_METHODS(Industry)
22:21:36  <Samu> i have no idea how this works
22:21:53  <Samu> but this is the thing that attributes indexes to industries
22:22:12  <andythenorth> frosch123:
22:22:25  <andythenorth> chlorine chain stops dead :)
22:22:29  <andythenorth> probably won't work
22:22:46  <andythenorth> aim was pvc -> wire, maybe vehicle parts
22:23:59  <andythenorth> and I wanted to get Pipe back in :P
22:25:53  <Samu> i don't think i can fix this myself, seems complicated enough for me
22:26:45  <Samu> it requires creating a temporary log, recording the amount is delivered, and to which industry
22:27:01  <Samu> so that the other function read from it
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22:28:25  <Samu> i need DeliverGoodsToIndustry to communicate with AddCargoDelivery
22:28:39  <Samu> they're both called by DeliverGoods
22:28:50  <Samu> halp?
22:28:50  <frosch123> you only add the chemical plant for the liquids terminal?
22:29:10  <Samu> wait, let me post a link to the code
22:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> chlorine->cleaning materials->supermarket?
22:30:50  <Samu>
22:30:54  <frosch123> you could add wood and paper
22:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (has nothing to do with steel, though)
22:31:12  <andythenorth> I think paper is kind of arctic
22:31:16  <frosch123> paper can be used instead of plastic in the metal workshop
22:31:16  <andythenorth> maybe chlorine doesn't fit
22:31:38  <Samu> line 1107 is DeliverGoodsToIndustry
22:32:03  <Samu> then later on, in the same function, at line 1130, it reports the data to the monitor
22:32:06  <andythenorth> unless I cut out zinc, copper
22:32:16  <frosch123> wood can also be processed into engsup, and it can go to assembly plant
22:32:27  <frosch123> and to glass works
22:33:42  <frosch123> i think adding wood/paper is a nicer option than adding oil
22:33:44  <andythenorth> you're pushing the 1910 trucks :)
22:33:54  <andythenorth> oil is always boring :P
22:34:03  <ST2> amen xD
22:34:19  <Samu> line 1092, my bad
22:34:33  <andythenorth> I'd need ethylene or acetylene to go with chlorine
22:34:38  <andythenorth> then PVC beads
22:34:51  <andythenorth> at least 2 more cargos, I have 1 slot left :P
22:34:57  <Samu> and line 1115, jesus i'm so drunk
22:35:40  <andythenorth> ok tomorrow is a new idea ;)
22:35:42  * andythenorth bed
22:35:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: wood + coal tar from coke plant = ensp :P
22:36:10  <andythenorth> but already both outputs are used
22:36:33  <andythenorth> constraints are good, but sometimes the 2 outputs limit at industries is a tough constraint
22:36:36  <frosch123> i thought of wood for mines
22:36:45  <frosch123> to build tunnel support
22:36:54  <andythenorth> yeah, that's in extreme
22:37:04  <andythenorth> wood + chemicals = pit props
22:37:26  <andythenorth> coke plant would provide exact chemicals :P
22:37:35  <andythenorth> but I need the sulphur for tyres
22:38:01  <andythenorth> maybe that's adjustable
22:38:04  <andythenorth> but bed
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22:39:19  <Samu> hmm, there's a static SmallIndustryList _cargo_delivery_destinations;
22:39:38  <Samu> it keeps track of industries receiving cargos
22:39:49  <Samu> how to make use of this information for the monitor?
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23:44:12  <Samu> st2 u there? or glx or someone
23:45:13  <Samu> I got this line here
23:45:14  <Samu> static SmallIndustryList _cargo_delivery_destinations;
23:45:25  <Samu> it's on economy.cpp
23:45:41  <Samu> but i need cargomonitor.cpp to access _cargo_delivery_destinations
23:45:58  <Samu> i can't seem to do that
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