Log for #openttd on 21st December 2017:
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08:28:02  <Alberth> o/
08:29:28  <andythenorth> hi
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09:45:27  <m3henry> G'day
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10:24:18  <Alberth> o/
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10:26:24  <crem> \o
10:28:50  <Alberth> hi hi
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10:46:10  <m3henry> 'lo
10:54:31  <m3henry> Alberth: I hear the project is looking to be more C++11 oriented and I have some time off work over Christmas to spend on it.
10:56:34  <LordAro> m3henry: it's marginally moot until the compile farm runs a newer compiler
10:56:42  <LordAro> be nice to have a few things ready though
10:57:05  <m3henry> What would be prioritized?
10:57:38  <LordAro> entirely personally, i'd like to see a lot of the manual memory management go away
10:57:47  <m3henry> Here here
10:58:09  <Alberth> refactoring for the purpose of refactoring isn't done much
10:58:10  <m3henry> I've been replacing instances of MallocT with std::vector
10:58:19  <LordAro> there's a reference counted pointer class somewhere
10:58:41  <Alberth> mostly it gets done as part of changing or extending functionality
11:00:07  <m3henry> I was thinking of making SmallVector's API STL-compliant so that it could be used in templates like other containers
11:01:17  <Alberth> main feature of smallvector is its emplace functionality
11:02:27  <Alberth> in general std:: stuff is prefered rather than our own stuff, but no idea what the current compiler can or cannot handle
11:02:46  <m3henry> What are the toolchains used?
11:04:03  <Alberth> I use g++ at linux, but the program supports lots of platforms
11:04:09  <Alberth> no idea what they use
11:04:27  <m3henry> I'm surprised it's not written down somewhere
11:05:03  <Alberth> oh, it might exist, I just don't know
11:05:21  <Alberth> at least the compile farm knows :p
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11:05:32  <m3henry> Reminds me of my workplace xD
11:06:04  <Alberth> well, and this place is not even a paid job :p
11:06:14  <m3henry> Just labour of love
11:09:25  <__ln__> C++11-orientedness would be quite a leap as the code even avoids most of C++98 in its current state.
11:10:08  <Alberth> it's not moving that fast, and refactoring for refactoring only isn't done mostly
11:11:14  <m3henry> However, refactoring code that's used in other areas can lower the total cost of ownership
11:11:50  <Alberth> sure
11:12:06  <Alberth> but some parts are hairy and/or time-critical
11:13:30  <Alberth> but hardly any work is done in the program at all, currently
11:14:22  <m3henry> Is that due to completeness, or lack of developers' time?
11:14:36  <Alberth> lack of active developers, mostly
11:14:52  <Alberth> many have moved on as their life changed
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11:15:07  <Alberth> I am still around, but have other interests as well
11:15:25  <__ln__> developers haven't been rewarded with enough cake
11:15:36  <__ln__> frequently enough
11:16:18  <Alberth> and completeness.... it depends on how you play the game. Some areas could use a lot of love, but none of the developers is really interested in that play style
11:16:41  <m3henry> Seeing as I gained much entertainment value out of borth OpenTTD and TTDPatch when I was young, I feel like giving my time back, now that I am able to
11:16:59  <m3henry> What play-style would that be?
11:17:41  <Alberth> oh, loads
11:17:53  <Alberth> some people want to have a realistic simulator
11:18:01  <Alberth> some want to play model trains
11:18:23  <Alberth> some want to make nice scenes (see the screenshot forum)
11:19:08  <m3henry> model trains is covered nicely by the base game + basecost GRF, is it not?
11:19:15  <Alberth> no
11:19:27  <Alberth> no precise control over how trains run
11:19:32  <m3henry> ah
11:19:41  <Alberth> not 1354 types of tracks
11:19:53  <Alberth> no shunting
11:20:07  <Alberth> strange magic turn around at a station
11:20:14  <Alberth> no subways
11:20:17  <m3henry> I see
11:20:27  <Alberth> no signals on bridges / in tunnels
11:20:34  <Alberth> read some forum :p
11:20:38  <m3henry> lol
11:21:09  <Alberth> oh, some want to have a big competition under hard circumstances
11:21:19  <andythenorth> the game is nearly complete tbh
11:21:23  <Alberth> with economic realism
11:21:26  <Alberth> shares
11:21:26  <andythenorth> the big worries are 'will it keep working'
11:21:30  <Alberth> buy out
11:21:49  <m3henry> RailRoad Tycoon O
11:21:51  <andythenorth> I would settle for performance that didn't degrade as hardware improves
11:22:08  <Alberth> ^ big problem too
11:22:10  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has been getting consistently lower performance for the last 5 years for me
11:22:24  <Alberth> eventually our way of rendering the screen will fail
11:22:26  <andythenorth> it's hard to improve though eh :)
11:22:58  <m3henry> Has anyone done code coverage analysis?
11:23:27  <andythenorth> have we got any tests? o_O
11:23:35  <Alberth> we do :p
11:23:39  <andythenorth> do we? :P
11:23:51  <Alberth> noai regression test somewhere
11:23:54  <LordAro> i mean, i guess the AI regression stuff coutns
11:24:05  <andythenorth> I wonder if a partial rewrite is likely to get more attention than some other stuff
11:24:19  <andythenorth> seems hard-but-completable problems attract most interest
11:24:26  <andythenorth> trivial problems seem to bore people
11:24:33  <andythenorth> and some problems are just a tarpit of wishes
11:24:49  <m3henry> Sounds like the sales team at work
11:24:56  <m3henry> always selling the latter
11:25:23  <andythenorth> our sales team is in forums
11:25:31  <andythenorth> advocating for features
11:25:32  <Alberth> problem is that all customers express their wishes, assuming they play the game in the same way as everybody else :p
11:26:01  <Alberth> and assuming dev area of interest is aligned with teirs
11:26:04  <Alberth> *theirs
11:26:18  <andythenorth> one day I might try and fix station UI :P
11:26:26  <andythenorth> because that aligns with my interest
11:26:34  <LordAro> mm, compile farm doesn't publicly state compiler versions
11:26:43  <LordAro> iirc it's gcc4.x tho
11:26:49  <LordAro> and older for macosx
11:27:08  <Alberth> I am not worried about gcc :p
11:28:06  <Alberth> scenarios is also very much neglected
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11:44:37  <andythenorth>
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11:53:21  <Alberth> m3henry: so don't worry too much about what others want, do what you like to do :)
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12:00:42  <m3henry> Fair enough, though it must satisfy the gatekeepers of the repo to be accepted
12:01:10  <andythenorth> it must
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12:04:04  <m3henry> I suppose I should start by tackling some more flyspray issues
12:06:15  <andythenorth> there are plenty :D
12:06:21  <andythenorth> I deleted about 500 though
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12:49:15  <Alberth> in context of a house newgrf, any idea what "795+palette_offset" aims to do as value for a palette entry in a spritelayout/ground feature?
12:49:39  <Alberth> and how to express that in nml is likely something zeph likes to know :)
12:55:39  <andythenorth> it's a palette shift :P
12:55:45  <andythenorth> but why / how, dunnop
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13:06:25  <Alberth>   maybe a palette selection?
13:06:44  <Alberth> 795 is PALETTE_STRUCT_BLUE
13:08:19  <andythenorth> plausible
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15:39:07  <Samu> hi
15:39:30  <Samu> admining a server sucks :(
15:40:05  <Samu> st2 do u have admin tips? :p
15:40:41  <Samu> someone left because I started all vehicles that he stopped
15:40:42  <ST2> yeah: create a set of rules -> enforce them! easy peasy :P
15:41:06  <Samu> i also was against station spread, he had one occurrence
15:41:33  <Alkel_U3> I suggest not letting people on the server - people are likely the source of the problem :P
15:42:02  <ST2> Alkel_U3 told the most efficient way xD
15:42:25  <Samu> I usually let them servers run unmoderated for hours
15:42:43  <Samu> there was no complains during that period
15:42:50  <Samu> now that I stepped in
15:42:58  <Samu> bah... it sucks
15:43:22  <ST2> Samu: basically players only need to respect this ones:
15:43:40  <ST2> unless you set different ones, but players must be able to check them
15:44:39  <Samu> Don't cheat to advance yourself within the game. Joining a company operated by someone else
15:44:50  <Samu> well I joined his company, he probably got mad cus of that?
15:44:58  <Samu> i went there to fix the station spread
15:47:08  <Samu> i got a feeling he didn't like my fix
15:48:34  <ST2> easiest way: make a client with many function related to admining commands, like this
15:48:49  <ST2> make things even faster that grabbing a beer :P
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15:54:35  <Alberth> Samu: would you like it if someone else took over your game, and played with it
15:54:36  <Alberth> ?
15:54:55  <Samu> not really
15:55:24  <Samu> Mogul AI isn't helping to comply the rules though
15:55:36  <Samu> he makes distant join stations :(
15:55:50  <Alberth> You're the admin, you decide what to run
15:56:27  <Samu> Alberth: how do i join an AI company in multiplayer?
15:56:36  <Alberth> but in general, don't invade stuff done by people unless they give permission to do so
15:56:57  <Alberth> no idea, I never play with AIs
15:56:58  <Samu> he's "abusing" roads near some industries, lol, wanna clear that
15:57:16  <Alberth> fix its code is most effective
15:57:33  <Alberth> but what you see as "fix" may not be seen that way by others
15:58:06  <ST2> Samu:
15:58:10  <ST2> the move <client-id> <company-id>
15:58:14  <ST2> must do the job
15:59:43  <Samu> Error: you cannot move clients to AI companies :(
16:00:43  <Samu>
16:00:54  <Samu> mogul ai breaking the rules
16:00:56  <Samu> lel
16:01:11  <Samu> the ai relies on distant join
16:01:15  <Alkel_U3> kick it then?
16:01:31  <Samu> if distant join is disabled, he makes those little pieces of roads
16:01:42  <Samu> almost looks like blocking
16:09:42  <Samu> cargodist still confuses me
16:10:15  <Samu> how many stations can a passenger visit before it reaches its final destination?
16:10:26  <Samu> how deep is it
16:11:02  <ST2> Final Destination has some movies so, it can take a while :D
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17:15:05  <Samu> ppl still don't set autorenew
17:15:18  <Samu> what if you turned it on by default?
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17:29:24  <Alberth> money magically disappears
17:29:35  <Alberth> or trains complain about lack of depots
17:30:12  <Alberth> most people don't have break-down, and no servicing
17:30:20  <Alberth> ie age of vehicles is a non-issue
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17:34:02  <Borg> huh?
17:34:06  <Borg> I play w/ autorenew.. no issues
17:34:34  <Borg> but.. w/ servicing
17:34:40  <Borg> w/o servicing autorenew simple dont kick in
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18:01:36  <Samu> some players are just plain retards :(
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18:42:04  <frosch123> moo
18:43:57  <LordAro> oom
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27946 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-12-21 19:45:38 +0100 )
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 1 change by Absay
18:48:50  <frosch123> yesterday kallithea leaked 40 mb, today 130 mb
19:01:44  <andythenorth> hi
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21:05:40  <andythenorth> solstice?
21:10:30  <frosch123> hard to tell, can't see it
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21:38:30  <andythenorth> too dark?
21:39:25  <stefino> hi, can someone explain this?
21:40:10  <stefino> there are rails - tram is going throw but there is no graphics  - only road o.o
21:43:27  <stefino> the same situation is in other direction. it is simple replace code, sprites looks OK, basic full sprite and upper layer where the road is cutted off
21:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: try the sprite picker tool, to see whether the rails are there, but simply being overwritten by another sprite
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21:49:31  <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: tram rails sprite is there but not displayed
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22:43:30  <FLHerne> Samu: AAUI: cargodist can create routes with an unlimited number of hops; the amount of cargo sent between two points is related to the geographical distance rather than the route complexity
22:44:39  <FLHerne> Samu: But: individual cargo packets don't have a complete route, or even a destination, at all
22:47:05  <FLHerne> They only care about the next hop, and CDist does statistical magic to make it look as though those individual hops are part of a route
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