Log for #openttd on 29th December 2017:
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05:09:40  <PressureLine> <3 drinking on a weekday
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09:38:02  <andythenorth> o/
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10:04:43  <PressureLine> o/
10:11:16  <crem> \o
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10:19:29  <Borg> hoi....
10:19:34  <Borg> any GS gurus around?
10:19:49  <Borg> I need to understand how I can check for specific industry.. in IndustryList
10:19:59  <Borg> is it possible at all?
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10:55:32  <Borg> heeeeeelp
10:55:40  <Borg> I cant wrap myself in that GS....
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11:18:42  <m3henry> G'day
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11:37:27  * Borg cries
11:38:22  <Borg> luicky... standard lame debugging options.. works in GS too
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12:35:05  <m3henry> G'day Alberth
12:35:17  <Alberth> hi hi
12:35:48  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
12:35:57  <Alberth> hi andy
12:38:52  <m3henry> I've been looking at SmallVector<T, S> some more and I've noticed some potential issues
12:40:46  <m3henry> The destructor requires that the contained type is trivially destructible to be safely called at any time, however there are uses of Smallvector which contain non-trivially destructible types
12:41:57  <m3henry> ErasePreservingOrder(uint, uint) requires that the contained type is trivially movable (which is fortunately the case for all uses of that method)
12:43:14  <Alberth> never seen that function :)
12:44:40  <m3henry> Putting a static_assertion on the container for std::is_trivially_destructible<T>::value would be one option, but breaks some uses, alternatively, ensuring the destructor for all remaining elements would prevent a potential resource leak
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12:45:10  <m3henry> Alternatively there is std::vector
12:46:45  <m3henry> Not entirely sure what be the best option
12:49:19  <Alberth> don't know about is_trivially_destructible at all
12:52:06  <m3henry> is_trivially_destructible means that the underlying memory can be deallocated without calling the destructor
12:52:38  <m3henry> for the particular type T
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12:53:46  <LordAro> Alberth: brace yourself, you're entering the world of template metaprogramming :)
12:53:49  <Alberth> I would say that switching to standard constructs is more useful than trying to make custom constructs safer
12:54:35  <Rubidium> except that I remember getting away from such a construct because it slowed some highly used function (in drawing IIRC) down by a few factors
12:54:58  <Rubidium> just because it kept copying memory around like crazy
12:55:02  <m3henry>
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12:56:15  <Alberth> you got the comment by Rubidium ?
12:57:08  <m3henry> Incase my previous message didn't arrive:
12:57:19  <m3henry> nop
12:57:42  <Alberth> (13:54:35) Rubidium: except that I remember getting away from such a construct because it slowed some highly used function (in drawing IIRC) down by a few factors
12:57:42  <Alberth> (13:54:58) Rubidium: just because it kept copying memory around like crazy
13:00:59  <m3henry> Ah yes, ErasePreservingOrder is never used anywhere in the project
13:01:12  <m3henry> oh no, it is, in the last compiled file
13:01:15  <m3henry> :v
13:02:04  <m3henry> But RefitOptions are trivially move assignable, so there's no issue with its use there
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13:05:50  <m3henry> The rationale stated in the file description for SmallVector seems a little odd "Simple vector class that allows allocating an item without the need to copy this->data needlessly."
13:07:23  <m3henry> Is that referring to The allocation policy S being set large enough so that reallocations are unlikely
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13:15:42  <Alberth> you are aware that the project runs since 2004, and lots of people have contributed code, and left again, right?
13:15:53  <m3henry> Yes
13:16:22  <m3henry> I'm just willing to put in a few hundred hours to make it easier for future developers to modify the project
13:16:23  <Alberth> ie, no idea, I studied the SmallVector interface two times or so, and that's it
13:16:49  <Alberth> you already know way more than I do
13:17:10  <andythenorth> definitely more than I do :)
13:17:19  <Alberth> but you may want to start with the more harmless uses
13:18:12  <Rubidium> m3henry: IIRC it was that you first allocate the memory on stack and then copy that to the vector, instead of just getting a pointer from the stack with the memory address to write the data to
13:19:28  <Rubidium> but to be brutally honest, it's all vague and fuzzy as it's quite a while ago for me
13:20:01  <m3henry> Aha
13:21:16  <m3henry> But yeah, I'd rather not start proposing large changes to the project without first talking about it to gain an idea of what solutions would be most acceptable
13:23:22  <Rubidium> it might also be that the code that used that is gone by now, but I have no clue
13:23:53  <m3henry> It's heavily used it would seem
13:28:45  <Borg> m3henry: thats kinda strange what u say
13:29:12  <m3henry> Huh?
13:29:51  <Borg> m3henry: delete value <- this is not trival dealloc... destructor will be called if necessary
13:30:07  <Borg> but.. I might be wrong ;) I got rusty in C++
13:31:23  <m3henry> Ah, the implementation of SmallVector<T,S> uses malloc()/free() rather than new/delete
13:31:54  <Borg> w00t? :)
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13:32:26  <Borg> nice abomination mix I see here ;) mixing malloc() vs new is bad
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13:32:52  <Alberth> c++ also has malloc :p
13:33:05  <Borg> of course it has.. but as I said.. mixing those 2 is bad idea
13:33:22  <Alberth> but it's a 300K program converted from C to modern C to C++ in a deade
13:33:24  <m3henry> free doesn't do any destruction of objects deallocated by a call to it, it just makes the memory available to the heap
13:33:36  <Borg> Alberth: ahh :) didnt know it...
13:33:42  <Borg> m3henry: I know
13:33:55  <Borg> Alberth: well.. git grep -F malloc
13:33:57  <Borg> is your friend :D
13:34:06  <m3henry> delete and delete[] destroy the object[s] and then make the memory available to the heap
13:34:25  <Alberth> I know it uses malloc, and I don't see the problem, as long as you use it consistently
13:34:49  <Alberth> and are aware of the differences, of course
13:35:03  <m3henry> I was clarifying for Borg
13:35:30  <Borg> m3henry: thank you :) but no need to.. I know the basics
13:35:46  <Alberth> I agree you wouldn't write it in mixed new and malloc if you write a new program, but 300K lines isn't easily converted
13:35:57  <Borg> Alberth: indeed
13:36:34  <Alberth> and there is code in there that hasn't been touched in ages
13:36:38  <Borg> anyway! OpenTTD time.. time to play w/ my very first simple GS!
13:37:37  <m3henry> And with smart pointers and containers, using new is rarely warrented
13:42:12  <m3henry> I suppose what I'm really asking is, should I invest time in tightening up SmallVector, or moving instances to use std::vector?
13:42:22  <LordAro> Alberth: from machine code to C, as well
13:43:01  <Alberth> making new obsolete is relatively recent
13:43:09  <Alberth> LordAro:  fair enough :)
13:43:28  <Alberth> I'd start with the non-time critical cases
13:43:53  <LordAro> Alberth: bits of openrct2 looked far too familiar to refute ottd's origins anymore
13:44:33  <Alberth> afaik the decoders used openttd as source of inspiration
13:44:44  <m3henry> That sounds like move to std::vector then
13:44:57  <Alberth> so it would be logical to see bits of openttd in it
13:44:58  <LordAro> m3henry: the latter, imo
13:45:25  <Alberth> m3henry:  for the non-time critical cases, I see no objection to a move to std::vector, do you?
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13:46:04  <Alberth> no idea how many would remain then
13:46:47  <m3henry> Between std::vector and std::array, custom contiguous containers seem moot
13:47:33  <m3henry> I have no idea how many tens of thousands of hours have gone into ensuring they are optimized and as tight as possible
13:54:28  <LordAro> technically, it depends on your usecase
13:54:38  <LordAro> but i'd imagine ottd covers none of those :)
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14:48:44  <Borg> guys, is that me.. or I cannot find rag_signals_density in config options in GUI anymore?
14:48:57  <Borg> drag_signals_density I mean
14:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in the signal gui, probably?
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14:51:19  <Borg> ohh indeed
14:51:23  <Borg> thx
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15:45:09  <Borg> hmmm
15:45:13  <Borg> why this doesnt work in GS:
15:45:15  <Borg> local tab;
15:45:18  <Borg> tab["xx"]=1
15:48:37  <Borg> ahh found it..
15:48:42  <m3henry_> GS?
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15:50:08  <Borg> GameScript
15:50:13  <Borg> its tab.xx <- 1;
15:50:16  <Borg> ugggly syntax ;)
15:51:46  <Borg> or not...
15:51:50  <Borg> holy fuck..
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15:56:39  <Borg> okey, works
15:58:41  <Alberth> difference between entry creation and assignment of existing entry
15:58:47  <Alberth> and yeah, it's ugly :)
16:00:43  <Borg> loooks good.. GRF works.. GS works :)
16:00:44  <andythenorth> FIRS 3 was 900 commits so far
16:00:47  <Borg> no... need to find players ;)
16:00:52  <andythenorth> whatever that means
16:10:59  <andythenorth> should I release FIRS 3?
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16:29:58  <andythenorth> so is that tacit consent?
16:30:03  <andythenorth> or tacit refusal? :P
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16:46:12  <Borg> who here said.. that stockpiling is.. bad... ?
16:46:16  <Borg> ;)
16:48:40  <andythenorth> me
16:48:50  <andythenorth> I have...opinions :P
16:49:01  <Borg> of course :)
16:49:06  <Borg> I kinda like it..
16:49:15  <Borg> kinda? nah.. I love it ;]
16:49:22  <Borg> makes production smoother..
16:49:33  <Borg> Of course it depends on GRF I guess
16:49:57  <Borg> Ive done  my own stuff here.. and Prod Industries adjust production smoothly.. based on transported ratio + stockpiles
16:50:19  <Borg> so no cry when u start chain from source.. ;) not much is gonna be wasted
16:50:26  <supermop> andy prefers the stockpile a few tiles away to give an excuse for various vehicles to carry the stuff around the industry?
16:50:47  <Borg> ;)
16:51:04  <andythenorth> is it stockpiling + rejection?
16:51:10  <andythenorth> (acceptance limits)
16:51:13  <Borg> yeah
16:51:15  <andythenorth> or just a fixed processing rate?
16:51:27  <Borg> stockpiling + rejection.. and processing rate is not fixed
16:51:33  <Borg> it adjust itself
16:51:38  <andythenorth> yeah I dislike stuff that messes up the network :D
16:51:43  <andythenorth> and make GS goals impossible
16:52:11  <Borg> hmmm..
16:52:33  <Alberth> make 3.0.0 before next year!
16:52:39  <Borg> I wonder how it can interferre with GS goals..
16:52:53  <andythenorth> I did try cargo rejection in FIRS, but it was quickly removed :)
16:53:06  <Borg> andythenorth: why? :) complains?
16:53:11  <Borg> also.. I use temporary cargo reject...
16:53:16  <Alberth> "give factory X lots of cargo in little time"
16:53:18  <Borg> so.. its dumped.. but no payment ;D
16:53:44  <Borg> so.. its funny to see how overloaded factory gives u no profit or even costs! if you have transfers
16:53:53  <Alberth> "make X money by bringing cargo to Y factory in little time"
16:54:11  <Borg> Alberth: ahh :)
16:54:18  <andythenorth> so it doesn't stop accepting at station?
16:54:24  <Borg> andythenorth: nope.
16:54:29  <andythenorth> better
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16:54:39  <andythenorth> stopping acceptance messes with cdist
16:54:43  <andythenorth> and AIs
16:55:03  <Borg> yeah.. also would be annoying to me.. to get info that cargo is not accepted w/o serious reason
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16:55:26  <Alberth> I'd just introduce a delay in giving output, process "current waiting input / 10" and give that as output
16:55:58  <Alberth> means you get what you provide, but not instantly
16:56:07  <Borg> Alberth: nah.. cargo drop is instant
16:56:15  <Borg> cargo output is not... so it should not mess w/ simple target
16:56:19  <Alberth> cargo drop is, cargo output is not
16:56:30  <Borg> yep.. so if you have cargo output GS.. then yes
16:56:32  <Borg> it can mess with it
16:56:42  <andythenorth> it's not a problem
16:56:49  <andythenorth> my prejudices aren't golden rules :P
16:57:01  <Alberth> it can't, GS has no influence on output of industries
16:57:28  <Alberth> we fork andy, and change him :)
16:57:49  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps better fork firs 3 :p
17:05:45  <m3henry_> If I wish to submit a fix which closes an issue, should I request closure of the issue after adding the patch in a comment?
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17:10:27  <Alberth> just mention that it fixes the issue
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17:44:14  <Borg> damn..
17:44:22  <Borg> I reduced distance between signals to 6 tiles...
17:44:29  <Borg> looks and plays better.. but I feel... bad.
17:47:01  <Alberth> openttd is not a simulation of reality :)
17:47:30  <Borg> I know.. but still ;)
17:47:41  <m3henry_> Fair enough, I was just wondering if I'd missed something when fixing FS#6642
17:47:53  <Borg> but anything below that.. is profanation. imo..
17:49:13  <Alberth> slightly longer than the train length seems best to me, but others disagree :)
17:49:52  <Borg> well.. in my case its not an option ;D as I can have 14 tiles long trains here and there
17:49:56  <Borg> I used 8 tiles distance
17:50:03  <Borg> but on curves. calcs were annoying
17:50:19  <Borg> w/6 are much better to perfome.. counting to 5.. and next semaphore
17:51:16  <LordAro> @fs 6642
17:51:16  <DorpsGek> LordAro:
17:52:00  <LordAro> m3henry_: looks fine, you just have to get someone to notice now
17:55:46  <m3henry_> If it gets left along for a week I'll prod <insert name to prod>
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18:01:29  <LordAro> m3henry_: why wait? Alberth is right here? :p
18:01:54  <Alberth> he is?
18:04:02  <m3henry_> *Falls off chair*
18:06:15  * m3henry_ checks if this is the cmd for this
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18:09:22  <Wolf01> o/
18:10:26  <Alberth> o/
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19:25:10  * Wolf01 is counting lego parts from the last order
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19:41:28  <Alberth> 1, 2, 3, many
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20:48:07  <Wolf01> Yes, many
20:48:43  <Wolf01> Just finished counting
20:49:49  <Wolf01> I miss 1 really common part (a technic pin, 39 instead of 40, I needed 27 of them) but I have 1 more of the new quarter round tiles :P
20:50:50  <RafiX> lego?
20:51:01  <glx> what else ? ;)
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21:42:19  <Wolf01> It seem I started a constructive discussion for NRT in the forum
21:43:32  <Samu> bah, my poe character died
21:43:44  <Samu> time to play openttd
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22:05:22  <Guest722> hi
22:06:25  <Guest722> question: I'm playing UK v3 scenario with Japanse v3.3 trainset but I don't have multi-carriages for the Shenkansen
22:06:44  <Guest722> how can I fix this?
22:07:23  <Guest722> I tried the trainset add-on but that had version 3.1 orso and gives a conflict
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22:27:18  <pietje> has anyone played the UK v3.04a4 scenario? Which trainset works the best?
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23:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> pietje: the japanese trainset probably needs an accompanying trackset to work fully
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23:54:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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