Log for #openttd on 7th January 2018:
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08:15:36  <andythenorth> o/
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09:10:45  <Wolf01> Moin
09:14:16  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
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09:46:21  <andythenorth> bbl
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09:54:32  <Borg> aaaa help. I got problem w/ YAPF
09:55:28  <Borg>
09:55:48  <Borg> why that bitch goes to red.. even when she have green signal on right
09:56:49  <peter1138> So, er, which signal?
09:57:36  <Wolf01> Use the 2 way signals to let trains make decisions with presignals
09:59:01  <peter1138> Do you mean the presignal block leading to the two stopped trains? It's because the right lane has an extra signal at the end which increases the penalty.
09:59:04  <Borg> peter1138: the upper train that goes down...
09:59:18  <Borg> there are 2 exit signals and presignal
09:59:50  <Borg> peter1138: yeah...
10:00:04  <Borg> peter1138: but its green.. so no penalty
10:00:12  <Borg> wait..
10:00:14  <Borg> it is red ;D
10:00:36  <Borg> lets count penalties
10:00:50  <Borg> straigth patch: 500+400=900
10:00:53  <peter1138> Green still has a penalty.
10:01:04  <Borg> no its red.. 100% sure
10:01:20  <peter1138> Yes because of the other route.
10:01:20  <Borg> also... firstred counts too? then +1000
10:01:29  <Borg> so.. straight patch should have 1900 at least
10:01:38  <Borg> no.. lets count right lane...
10:01:41  <Borg> (train perspective)
10:01:46  <Borg> first is green..
10:01:53  <Borg> so... 400+300 = 700
10:01:53  <peter1138> Just use path signals everywhere and stop with the old school rubbish :p
10:02:05  <Borg> so obvious path for me....
10:02:17  <Borg> peter1138: pfft... I use PBS a lot :) but sometimes its suboptimal
10:02:34  <Borg> I tried to red YAPF code.. but.. its damn complicated C++ stuff
10:02:47  <Wolf01> PBS is suboptimal when you put 1 signal every 2 tiles
10:03:19  <Borg> Wolf01: nah.. its slow sometimes.. and also not making right decisions in certain cases.. its ok.. thats why we have presignals
10:04:10  <Borg> yapf.rail_firstred_penalty = 1000
10:04:18  <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5
10:04:19  <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500
10:04:19  <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100
10:04:19  <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0
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10:04:28  <Borg> but with those settings.. it should go to the right lane dammit
10:04:37  <Borg> first is green..
10:04:51  <Wolf01> The entry presignal should be a DOUBLE WAY SIGNAL
10:05:05  <Borg> Wolf01: only if you have twoway_eol=true
10:05:35  <Borg> or.. twoway signals are calculated differently?
10:06:56  <Wolf01> I think twoway_eol is for handling terminus stations
10:07:02  <Wolf01> You don't have an eol there
10:07:13  <Borg> I dont see any special stuff for twoway signals in YAPF
10:07:25  <Borg> only twoway_eol and depots
10:07:35  <Wolf01> Because it's from the core game, not YAPF
10:07:55  <Wolf01> Two way = make decision
10:08:33  <Borg> Wolf01: arent u confusing openttdcoop SRN ?
10:08:34  <Wolf01> It was chosen a lot of time ago, in TTDP when presignals were added
10:08:56  <Borg> okey.. lets switch them to two way
10:08:58  <Borg> to see if u are right
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10:10:48  <Borg> lol
10:10:50  <Borg> u are right...
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10:10:57  <Borg> thats crap :(
10:11:12  <Wolf01> Nah, that's just RTFM
10:11:29  <Borg> oneway twoway should not make difference
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10:11:56  <Borg> lets see if PBS will do better
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10:13:02  <Wolf01> Just don't place PBS after junction, that's not a safe waiting point
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10:13:27  <Borg> of course :)
10:13:37  <Wolf01> Better safe than sorry
10:14:33  <Borg> okey PBS will do better
10:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why coop-people insist on twoway_eol, when firstred_exit is equally as powerful
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10:19:21  <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. I dont use twoway_eol...
10:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i only use path signals anyway
10:19:51  <Borg> hmm
10:20:05  <Borg> I use path + block
10:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't build that kind of junction
10:20:19  <Borg> and sometimes presignals where station have low traffic and I dont want to have loop on it
10:20:39  <Borg> but I wonder if I should convert it to PBS
10:20:55  <Wolf01> I only build plain junctions, flyovers only if the terrain forces me :P
10:21:17  <Borg> Wolf01: well... I have high traffic on that lane
10:21:27  <Borg> play junction would be suboptimal..
10:21:32  <Borg> wanna see it? its on server....
10:21:37  <Wolf01> I usually have 2-6 trains per line, so...
10:21:44  <Borg> currently, Im scared to use PBS signals...
10:21:49  <Borg> I use oneway PBS
10:21:57  <Wolf01> And they usually wait at stations
10:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: PBS are totally easy: every place you would put an exit signal, you remove the signal, every entry signal becomes a one-way path signal
10:23:24  <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: I know..
10:23:27  <Borg> I use PBS a lot...
10:23:35  <Borg> the only problem I have is PBS vs OneWay PBS :>
10:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure that every entry into the junction is through a path signal, never a block signal
10:23:48  <Borg> my networks are mostly oneway...
10:24:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you need twoway path signal only at terminus stations
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10:25:55  <Borg> I miss more fine grained Signal Selection via CTRL
10:26:23  <Borg> hmm lets see
10:26:27  <Wolf01> There's a setting for that, you can decide which kind of signals to cycle
10:26:56  <Borg> yeah
10:27:06  <Borg> okey.. found acceptable setting..
10:27:12  <Borg> build path.. cycle thro all
10:27:20  <Borg> just to clicks.. if I will not use pre signals anymore
10:27:59  <Borg> so :D redesign time...
10:28:03  <Borg> pre signals are no more! ;)
10:28:40  <Wolf01> Pre signals are still useful, but not as they were before PBS
10:28:42  <Borg> extra setting would be cool tho
10:28:51  <Borg> cycle via: block + path (no presignals)
10:29:03  <Borg> yeah.. before PBS they were must :)
10:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i had so many problems with presignals, because i always stumbled into the cases where they were not enough
10:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't use the ctrl-cycling, i use the signal gui to select the signal
10:31:57  <Borg> its too slow.. for me
10:32:04  <Borg> I prefer to click fast few times
10:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and also i put path signals everywhere
10:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no plain block signals
10:32:18  <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: even on one way line ?
10:32:20  <Borg> geez.. waste
10:32:28  <Borg> I use PBS only on junctions
10:32:35  <Borg> on lanes.. I put simple block one way signal
10:32:48  <Borg> every 6 tiles
10:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that just bites you in the ass if you add a junction to an existing line and forget to convert a signal
10:33:29  <Borg> how u can forget to convert? :)
10:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> every mistake that can happen will happen
10:34:46  <Borg> oh.. the only mistakes I made. when rebuilding busy intersection..
10:34:53  <Borg> and sometimes I remove signal.. and BOOM
10:34:54  <Borg> ;)
10:34:57  <Borg> rary.. but happen
10:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i always build while paused. easier to catch these kinds of mistakes
10:35:36  <Borg> geez...
10:35:44  <Borg> I play multiplayer only
10:35:44  <Borg> :)
10:35:48  <Borg> ok.. mostly :D
10:36:18  <Borg> argh
10:36:23  <Borg> current setting is not optimal
10:36:29  <Borg> too much clicking when building lane..
10:36:38  <Borg> it needs extra setting
10:37:12  <Borg> All, All but pre-signals, Path signals, block signals,
10:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> make a patch
10:37:24  <Borg> yeah. I will..
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10:39:54  <Borg> first I need to setup compilation platform.. wont be easy
10:40:55  <Borg> hmmm
10:41:00  <Borg> I noticed that stations have signals...
10:41:04  <Borg> at least it looks like
10:41:32  <Wolf01> Sort of, but don't rely on it
10:42:03  <Borg> well.. if they will work basicaly on station with reserving
10:42:07  <Borg> reversing I mean
10:42:16  <Borg> its fine.. I use them only on low traffic..
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10:42:37  <Borg> then I dont need a patch :) because I will not use twoway PBS
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10:42:59  <Wolf01> I make terminus stations without any signal if I lack of space
10:43:35  <Borg> wow
10:43:39  <Borg> they behave a bit like PBS
10:43:45  <Borg> or block?
10:43:48  <Borg> dunno.. but it worked
10:43:54  <Borg> I had 2 trains w/o signals in block
10:44:00  <Borg> except entrance PBS
10:44:09  <Borg> and they went in.. one went out
10:44:15  <Borg> dammit! :) no need to PBS on them
10:44:21  <Borg> thats great
10:44:43  <Borg> im back to my old settings
10:44:51  <Borg> place One way PBS, cycle thro block signals only
10:45:05  <Borg> since I will use only one way PBS or one way block signals. not much clicking!
10:45:25  <Borg> redesign time ;D
10:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not the station that has a signal
10:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's that a reversing train has a signal
10:47:38  <Borg> ahh..
10:47:50  <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: simple block signal?
10:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no. if a train reverses, and there is a path signal nearby, it will try to reserve a path. if it cannot reserve the path, it will wait (instead of just going)
10:48:57  <Borg> ahh.. ok
10:49:09  <Borg> kewl
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12:11:24  <Wolf01> Yay, mashinky got presignals
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12:29:53  <_dp_> nice try mashinky
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12:50:39  <Thedarkb-X40> Why does OpenTTD still depend on libicu52?
12:51:17  <Wolf01> Because nobody still had time to get rid of it
12:52:50  <Thedarkb-X40> I'll try building it from the source.
12:55:43  <Thedarkb-X40> It's not finding a video driver.
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13:56:26  <Samu> hi
13:56:38  <Samu> 4 AI's remaining
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14:21:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27961 /trunk (bin/baseset/openttd.grf media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png) (2018-01-07 15:21:09 +0100 )
14:21:17  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6654]: The switch-toolbar icon contained pixels from the fire cycle. Replace the whole icon with a new version. (PaulC)
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14:55:41  <nicfer> Hi
14:57:02  <nicfer> Is this channel open for newgrf questions?
14:58:17  <frosch123> this channel is for everything
14:58:48  <frosch123> including lego, factorio and other stuff
14:59:18  <__ln__> also linear algebra, poetry, signal processing
15:02:40  <Borg> ;)
15:15:01  <nicfer> I'm trying to make a GRF that changes primary industries to increase production when supplied with cargo (passengers in my case)
15:16:08  <frosch123> check out yeti, manpower industries and possibly firs
15:16:14  <frosch123> they are all doing similar things
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16:04:58  <andythenorth> dunno
16:05:33  <andythenorth> what if it's the general case
16:05:37  <andythenorth> that's wrong?
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16:06:56  <andythenorth> Eddi argues that NRT failed because it doesn't consider the general case
16:07:09  <andythenorth> but the general case can't be reconciled
16:17:42  <andythenorth> catenary MUST be split road / tram
16:17:52  <andythenorth> catenary MUST be unified road / tram
16:18:08  <frosch123> catenary MUST be purely visual
16:18:30  <andythenorth> player MUST be able to build over town road
16:18:43  <andythenorth> player MUST NOT be able to build over town road
16:18:52  <andythenorth> general case is nonsense
16:19:03  <frosch123> since when are there players?
16:19:11  <andythenorth> well AIs then
16:19:21  <andythenorth> AI / player /s
16:19:45  <andythenorth> I would be inclined to say just ship it
16:19:47  <andythenorth> what we have
16:19:55  <andythenorth> except for the weird compatibility junk
16:21:25  <andythenorth> done > perfect
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16:23:51  <supermop> andythenorth in general, yes
16:24:13  <supermop> nrt probably works good enough as is
16:25:03  <andythenorth> but it's not done
16:25:27  <andythenorth> and it can't be done
16:25:40  <supermop> openttd wasn't done but they let me download it back in the 0.7.x times
16:36:56  <andythenorth> yeah
16:37:34  <andythenorth> but only the signals, pathfinder, newgrf, timetables and vehicle physics were actually broken then
16:37:40  <andythenorth> not much
16:38:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: how about we ship, catenary is trams only?
16:39:04  <andythenorth> problems eliminated
16:39:12  <supermop> T_T
16:44:51  <andythenorth> why is catenary a thing?
16:44:55  <andythenorth> isn't it just decoration?
16:50:40  <andythenorth> decoration cb
16:50:44  <andythenorth> no catenary
16:51:01  <andythenorth> vehicle compatibility is 1:1 determined by type
16:51:07  <andythenorth> road and tram are orthogonal
16:51:21  <andythenorth> any type that wants to show catenary draws it as decoration
16:51:35  <andythenorth> decoration cb cycles through sprites for both sides of road
16:51:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^^^
16:51:47  <andythenorth> ?
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17:09:04  <andythenorth> hi Snail_
17:10:13  <Snail_> hi andythenorth
17:11:49  <Snail_> I like your attempt to improve Extreme economy, just please try not to introduce any new cargoes (at least for now) ;)
17:13:48  <andythenorth> I am drawing ships and trains for next [n] months
17:16:30  <Snail_> nice
17:17:13  <Samu> nerf trains
17:17:56  <andythenorth> I don't need to transport any nerfs
17:18:13  <andythenorth> NERF is not a FIRS cargo
17:18:16  <andythenorth> ...yet
17:18:24  <andythenorth> biab
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17:45:42  <Wolf01> What if we just solve the problem visually and keep whatever catenary exists in tiles?
17:46:52  <Wolf01> It's grf author problem to show if there is trolleybus catenary or tram catenary
17:47:11  <Wolf01> supermop: you already solved this, no?
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17:57:49  <andythenorth> Snail_: if you stick around, I'll put the classes in FIRS docs
17:58:10  <Snail_> andythenorth: sounds great! :)
17:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i think one of the problems is that it's trying to build upon the distinction between "road" and "tram", which is clerly insufficiant
18:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there's road (with various surfaces)
18:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there's road decoration
18:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there's trolley catenary
18:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram rails
18:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram catenary
18:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram 3rd rail
18:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> each of them has different restrictions with which it is compatible
18:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> like trolley catenary can only be built along roads, where tram rails can be laid without road
18:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> tram catenary can only be built along trams, but most of the time it should be treated as one unit with the tram rails
18:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> trolley catenary should be removable from town roads, so it needs its separate owner
18:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd rail cannot be built along roads, only crossings allowed
18:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be tram rails that are not allowed along roads, but have different speed limit
18:09:45  <Snail_> andythenorth: what year will Vehicle Bodies be available from?
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18:10:44  <andythenorth> any
18:10:56  <Snail_> ok...
18:11:02  <andythenorth> I am very against date-restricted cargos and industries
18:11:09  <andythenorth> I would have removed them, but too much complaining :P
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18:16:37  <Thedarkb> I'm trying to build openttd from the source and it's looking for a graphics driver.
18:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> which OS?
18:17:28  <Snail_> got it ;)
18:17:47  <Snail_> andythenorth: shouldn’t Assembly Plants also supply Farm Supplies?
18:17:51  <Snail_> think tractors...
18:17:51  <Thedarkb> Debian.
18:17:57  <Thedarkb> Kind of.
18:18:02  <Thedarkb> Lubuntu.
18:18:13  <LordAro> Thedarkb: what's the error message?
18:18:24  <Thedarkb> I did something weird and now it's reporting as both...
18:18:49  <Thedarkb> Anyway, it says the driver isn't found and that I need to run configure with a --dedicated flag.
18:18:56  <Thedarkb> But I don't want to run a dedicated server.
18:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Thedarkb: you're probably missing SDL (1) development files
18:19:06  <LordAro> sounds like you're mis- ^
18:19:21  <LordAro> Thedarkb: `apt-get build-dep openttd` will install all necessary deps on debian
18:19:32  <Thedarkb> Will do.
18:19:39  <Thedarkb> Some libs are deprecated though
18:19:49  <LordAro> define "deprecated"
18:20:06  <LordAro> i.e., please quote the error/warning messages
18:20:37  <Thedarkb> I'll come back when I'm on the machine I'm trying to build it on.
18:20:39  <LordAro> (into a pastebin of some sort if >3 lines)
18:23:08  <andythenorth> Snail_: think 'how many output cargos?' o_O
18:23:25  <andythenorth> also FMSP are not demanded much in Steeltown
18:25:01  <Snail_> oh… max is 2?
18:25:22  <andythenorth> yup
18:25:26  <andythenorth> also
18:25:37  <andythenorth> I have no idea why some of the classes are set
18:25:38  <andythenorth> but eh
18:25:58  <supermop> eddi: how do you see tram 3rd rail as different than just a type of catenary or type of track?
18:26:16  <andythenorth> who's ever going to set 'hazardous' ?
18:26:19  <andythenorth> and why / how
18:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a remnant from this "OpenTTD+500" "project", the only part which sounded reasonable enough that anybody might actually use it
18:28:14  <andythenorth> 'covered' I think has been used, as an exclude on open vehicles
18:28:31  <andythenorth> but what, I have to provide 'hazardous cargos' truck?
18:28:42  <andythenorth> it makes no sense even as an exclude
18:28:52  <andythenorth> maybe it's for CB36 novelties instead
18:29:04  <andythenorth> I could nerf horse with realism
18:29:12  <andythenorth> 'hazardous cargos must have 2 brake vans'
18:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe hazardous materials cannot be driven through towns (with NRT) :p
18:29:40  <Snail_> great :) thanks, Andy
18:30:01  <Snail_> btw why did you have to introduce the new METL cargo label?
18:30:08  <Snail_> in my set, I’m treating it exactly like STEL...
18:30:27  <andythenorth> because STEL isn't METL
18:30:31  <andythenorth> they're different
18:30:37  <Snail_> couldn’y you have kept STEL and just renamed it in Extreme economy?
18:31:42  <andythenorth> yes, but I didn't
18:32:39  <andythenorth> keeps vehicle set authors entertained
18:32:45  <Snail_> :p
18:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maybe you can get away with merging them into the track type, but it seemed different enough that i listed it separately
18:35:16  <Thedarkb> Over here, hazardous cargo needs one brake van but two buffer wagons at either end in case of a collision.
18:38:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: surely it's just the track type?
18:38:41  <andythenorth> and arbitrary graphics?
18:38:47  <andythenorth> we don't have these concepts in railtypes
18:38:58  <andythenorth> seems NRT is extensively complex :P
18:39:34  <Snail_> I’d love to separate rails and electrification systems...
18:39:48  <Snail_> that would open many possibilities
18:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the complexity comes from the fact that a road tile can have multiple owners
18:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> which is not a problem that railtypes faced, so they could take the lazy path there
18:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you cannot get away with that for roadtypes
18:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you could reduce that to 4 not-entirely-orthogonal types: road (none, dirt, cobble, asphalt), decoration (grass, pavement, trees, lamps), rail (none, tram, fast tram) and electrification (none, trolley catenary, tram catenary, 3rd rail)
18:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> which would "solve" the catenary problem by only allowing one catenary on each roadbit
18:44:49  <andythenorth> why is multiple owners relevant?
18:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so trolley and tram catenary can only cross each other, not go along
18:45:01  <andythenorth> none of the problems that killed NRT are due to multiple owners
18:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so i imagined there being a problem with trolley catenary not being removable from town roads?
18:45:57  <andythenorth> actually I adjust my comment
18:46:02  <andythenorth> given that Town is an owner
18:46:10  <andythenorth> towns don't own rail
18:46:25  <andythenorth> that is basically the issue that makes NRT failed
18:46:31  <andythenorth> and that will apply to any spec
18:46:42  <Samu> 3 AIs remaining
18:46:45  <andythenorth> so fundamentally, this isn't possible
18:47:42  <andythenorth> assuming no infra-sharing
18:47:54  <andythenorth> modifying tiles owned by someone else just isn't possible in OpenTTD
18:48:03  <andythenorth> and towns own roads
18:48:12  <andythenorth> so any attempt at roadtypes can never work
18:48:19  <andythenorth> maybe we just do tramtypes? Wolf01
18:49:00  <Wolf01> I would do roadtypes more, you might just need 3 trams
18:49:41  <andythenorth> roadtypes aren't possible :)
18:49:43  <andythenorth> ever
18:49:58  <andythenorth> because of towns
18:50:19  <Wolf01> With a well crafted grf it might work, we need to solve the problem of changing town roads (without upgrade or downgrade shit)
18:50:56  <andythenorth> that's not possible in current OpenTTD
18:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i would define "upgrade" as "must be compatible with ROAD", and then hope that grf authors don't do silly stuff with changing ROAD
18:51:08  <andythenorth> no player may modify another player's infastructure
18:51:27  <andythenorth> it's a fundamental tenet of the game
18:51:43  <Wolf01> With the exception of town owned roads, you can blow them up
18:51:43  <Samu> diagonal roads?
18:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can convert "cobble road with trolley catenary" to "asphalt road without catenary"
18:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but not to haul road
18:52:27  <Samu> if you will rework roads, create diagonal for them :p
18:53:15  <andythenorth> so I convert the road, now I own it?
18:53:19  <Wolf01> What if old_roadtype & new_roadtype = old_roadtype?
18:53:52  <Wolf01> (speaking about flags and compatibility)
18:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly you can add that the speed limit should not be lower than before
18:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think that's already the case for bridges)
18:54:27  <Wolf01> Nah, that won't break compatibility, you should be able to change the speed limit as you want
18:55:45  <Wolf01> Samu: not the right topic, we are discussing about NRT (which is a 1.5 years old feature, so you should already know what it does)
18:57:45  <Wolf01> Also, andythenorth, if you convert a town road you should take ownership, who comes first wins
18:58:20  <andythenorth> that's an exploit
18:58:43  <Wolf01> That's what you already do when you are placing one way roads
18:58:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but then the reverse should be true, if town upgrades the road during its expansion loop (assuming that will be a feature), it should reclaim ownership of the road
18:58:48  <andythenorth> currently removing road is only possible for certain cases
18:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (or the roadside decoration)
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19:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it works already, except that "owner town" uses all 5 bits from the owner
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19:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you split it 4+1, you can store the same thing plus extra owner in the same 5 bits
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19:09:45  <Wolf01> Yes
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19:09:54  <Samu> what about owner_none
19:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 15 companies plus "owner none" = 4 bits
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19:10:25  <Samu> oh, right
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19:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you can modify a town road if owner is yourself or none, and the town allows it
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19:16:51  <andythenorth> so what would happen?
19:17:00  <andythenorth> I build roadtype NERF over town ROAD
19:17:08  <andythenorth> what conditions permit that?
19:17:17  <andythenorth> who can overbuild it?
19:17:20  <andythenorth> who can remove it?
19:17:23  <andythenorth> who can use it?
19:17:27  <andythenorth> who can build stations on it?
19:17:45  <andythenorth> is it eligible for roadworks?
19:18:43  <Samu> 1 AI remaining, but 32 years away :(
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19:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> conditions: owner must be none or you, new roadtype must be compatible with ROAD, you must have town rating
19:19:30  <xat> hoy
19:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> later overbuilding: since you are now the owner, nobody else (except town) may overbuild it
19:19:30  <xat> is there a way to show a map in a gmaps style web site ? ;d
19:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> remove it: same
19:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> use: everyone
19:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> station: everyone
19:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> roadworks: yes
19:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> xat: there was "pngtile" ages ago, that could produce a scrollable map from a giant screenshot
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19:24:16  <xat> yeah i remember that
19:25:10  <xat> i don't remember but i had maybe a problem with the screenshot size ;o for like 2048² map
19:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds likely :p
19:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2048**2*64*32/1024**3
19:26:28  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 8
19:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> needs 8GB of RAM for uncompressed 8bpp data
19:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> most programs will have trouble with that, as they cannot process partial images
19:27:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so I can't own a town?  Because it has to be compatible with ROAD?
19:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anything that isn't compatible with ROAD must be built on an empty tile, cannot overbuild an existing road
19:35:00  <andythenorth> I'm going to discount griefing
19:35:00  <andythenorth> it's not interesting
19:35:00  <andythenorth> so what's left to solve?
19:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> tram vs trolley catenary
19:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> decoration
19:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> (catenary is not decoration)
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19:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> especially crossing tram and trolley lines
19:36:05  <andythenorth> catenary is just per type
19:36:13  <andythenorth> there is too much confusion about this
19:36:19  <andythenorth> compatibility is from the label
19:37:07  <andythenorth> and whatever the type chooses to draw as catenary, or not, is what is drawn, or not
19:37:07  <andythenorth> there is some mythical implied 'electrified' property, which needs discounting
19:37:07  <andythenorth> it's a dead end
19:37:53  <andythenorth> if I want to draw christmas lights on ROAD by abusing catenary, that's up to me
19:37:53  <andythenorth> it doesn't electrify TRAM on the same tile
19:38:01  <andythenorth> I am going opposite to frosch123's spec on this :)
19:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a valid opinion, but it doesn't resolve the drawing conflict
19:38:21  <andythenorth> no
19:39:26  <andythenorth> authors will just have to draw carefully
19:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that the road author might be different from the tram author
19:39:26  <andythenorth> yes, but that's a poor choice
19:39:26  <andythenorth> can't help players who have no taste
19:39:26  <andythenorth> we don't prevent e.g. 32bpp EZ
19:39:26  <andythenorth> even though it looks awful
19:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> even then, you still need to provide the grf author with enough tools to handle the situation
19:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> in a deterministic way
19:40:32  <andythenorth> if it's a cb, they're covered
19:40:42  <andythenorth> it's it just sprite numbers, dunno
19:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> a sprite number solution would be preferable speed-wise, i think
19:41:49  <andythenorth> probably
19:41:49  <andythenorth> frosch proposed a cb for one global catenary
19:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> same reason why railtypes did not get any useful variables
19:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that didn't quite convince me
19:42:04  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by shared global catenary
19:42:11  <andythenorth> cb performance I can't comment
19:43:23  <andythenorth> Wolf01: if we do NRT right, BGT isn't blocked at all
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20:01:12  <Wolf01> andythenorth, yep
20:01:58  <Wolf01> The problem is to avoid to block BGT by fixing some features which shouldn't be fixed
20:08:56  <Wormnest> Samu: New version of NoNoCAB available in case you want to test more ;)
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20:24:47  <Samu> ok, will test
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20:49:07  <nicfer> Hi again
20:50:03  <nicfer> What's the difference between EXTRACTIVE and ORGANIC industries life_time values?
20:50:54  <nicfer> Does that define the "Forests produce slower" behaviour?
20:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly also the mine collapse disaster
20:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure
21:02:08  <frosch123> <- nicfer: it's described there
21:04:35  <nicfer> Well, I was checking the NML part of that grf wiki
21:04:53  <frosch123> they are not always in sync :)
21:04:56  <nicfer> Guess it's not as complete as the newgrf one
21:09:48  <nicfer> Hmmm, that page is also undescriptive
21:11:07  <nicfer> Just the "effect on nearby stations", and nothing about the difference between extractive and organic
21:13:38  <frosch123> it's the only differene
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21:41:05  <supermop> eddi, do you forsee many situations where tram owner is different than tram wires owner?
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21:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if someone builds a horsetram and someone else electrifies the (now shared) line?
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22:19:20  <Samu> Wormnest: just started testing NoNoCAB v5
22:19:45  <Wormnest> cool
22:21:52  <Samu> aww TracAI crashed
22:21:57  <Samu> cpu evaluator crap
22:22:02  <Samu> he was doing really well :(
22:22:33  <Samu> so i'm only testing 1 ai
22:26:12  <Wormnest> It´s sad that TracAI´s author disappeared right after releasing the first version.
22:26:29  <Wormnest> There´s probably not much hope for fixes
22:35:02  <Samu> he was really strong with aircraft
22:35:23  <Samu> not that great with train routes though
22:35:44  <Wormnest> No wonder the air part is based on my WormAI :p
22:35:58  <Samu> considering there was infrastructure maintenance costs enabled
22:36:03  <Samu> oh i see :p
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22:40:28  <Samu> vehicletype 1, vehicletype 0....´
22:40:52  <Samu> 0 is trains?
22:40:55  <Samu> 1 is ?
22:49:16  <Wormnest> I think road
22:50:15  <Wormnest> Yes, rail 0, road 1, water 2, air 3
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22:57:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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