Log for #openttd on 11th January 2018:
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00:04:17  <Samu> I learned a few things from these testings
00:04:39  <Samu> some AIs don't work well with 250k ops
00:04:51  <Samu> EpicTrans is an example
00:05:12  <Samu> I notice that they don't work too close to the loan limit
00:05:39  <Samu> they are slower, and that's enough to keep them from wasting money that quickly
00:05:54  <Samu> avoiding unnecessary bankrupt
00:06:31  <Samu> I was always convinced 250k ops would benefit them, but apparently, I was wrong
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00:11:16  <Samu> @calc -9633/-0
00:11:16  <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: complex division by zero
00:11:47  <ST2> aka: an infinite number ^^
00:13:32  <Samu> infrastructure costs for airports are still ridiculous, even when giving fat planes, like Dinger 200
00:14:06  <Samu> from the start
00:15:52  <Samu> one AI has an income of £15M, but the profit is only £3M because he got 80 airports
00:17:06  <Samu> comparing with AIs who don't use airports, infrastructure maintenance costs are much more in-line
00:18:19  <Samu> MogulAI, which uses the most road pieces, got an income of £12M and a profit of £9,9M
00:18:41  <Samu> 12k road pieces
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09:26:58  <Borg> vioala.. and its done :) sectorized OpenTTD
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12:51:50  <Borg> hmmm a weird idea popped in :D
12:51:58  <Borg> realistic train stop... an option..
12:52:22  <Borg> if train see red.. he hit breaks.. if he mis the stop signal.. oh well.. enoluck :)
12:52:27  <RafiX> hello
12:52:35  <Borg> does train tracks last signal he passed?
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13:52:48  <FLHerne> No
13:54:34  <FLHerne> There was, somewhere, a patch to implement warning signals and allow overshoots like that
13:54:50  <Borg> oh :)
13:54:59  <FLHerne> But it becomes very complicated where junctions are involved, and is mostly just annoying
13:55:09  <Borg> well
13:55:14  <Borg> its easy to do w/ presignals
13:55:19  <Borg> hard/complicated w/ PBS
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13:55:30  <FLHerne> Currently, the path to be reserved by a PBS signal is only chosen at the instant a train reaches it
13:55:46  <FLHerne> Which obviously causes a problem for advance-warning aspects
13:55:53  <Borg> yep
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13:58:18  <FLHerne> This seems to be the most recent
13:59:38  <Borg> hmm looks nice :)
14:06:05  <Borg> uh.. dude used too much physics there :)
14:06:12  <Borg> overdid it...
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14:17:03  <Borg> also went too much realistic in my opinion..
14:18:44  <Borg> still, idea is interesting.. would make look building tracks more natural
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14:35:52  <supermop_work> yo
14:36:03  <supermop_work> @logs
14:36:03  <DorpsGek> supermop_work:
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15:29:43  <Samu> for my next AI tests, I was considering 4096x4096, unsure if solo or multi AIs
15:30:22  <Samu> wanted to see how well they handle big maps
15:32:10  <Samu> it's gonna consume too much of my time though
15:32:35  <Samu> and I don't think I have enough HDD space for all savegames
15:33:11  <Samu> it was something I really wanted to do
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15:38:12  <Samu> @calc 100 * 12
15:38:12  <DorpsGek> Samu: 1200
15:39:35  <peter1138> That was hard
15:40:50  <Samu> need to generate a savegame yet
15:40:52  <Samu> sec
15:43:34  <Samu> @calc 100 * 12 * 8 * 15
15:43:34  <DorpsGek> Samu: 144000
15:44:31  <Samu> 144 Gigabytes?
15:45:40  <Samu> got 355 GB free
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15:46:57  <Alberth> hola
15:47:11  <Samu> hi
15:47:30  <Samu> i need to disable trees
15:47:36  <Samu> they really increase savegame size
15:56:46  <LordAro> "need"
15:57:29  <peter1138> Just use a sensible map size.
15:57:36  <peter1138> Something like 256x256/.
15:59:01  <Samu> that has been tried many times :(
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16:08:09  <Samu> interesting, generating industries is quicker now
16:08:18  <Samu> did you change something about industries recently?
16:08:35  <Alberth> likely you changed the landscape
16:09:58  <Samu> that may be it, let me retry with less water
16:13:01  <Samu> it takes more time to generate trees than anything else
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16:20:32  <Alberth> you can use a different tree generator :)
16:21:31  <Samu> I will disable trees, to save a big chunk of hdd space
16:21:39  <Alberth> or remove all trees manually
16:21:56  <Alberth> gives a nice challenge after loading it again as a bonus
16:22:01  <Samu> it also seems to speed up savegame time
16:22:34  <Samu> tried autosaving with trees, it took 3 months game-time, and I was planning monthly saves
16:25:37  <Samu> @calc 250/15
16:25:37  <DorpsGek> Samu: 16.6666666667
16:38:10  <Samu> I swear, generating industries is very quick now
16:38:23  <Samu> in a matter of seconds, 20k industries were generated
16:39:01  <Samu> 4, 5 seconds
16:40:07  <Samu> let me try disabling multiple industries of same type per town
16:40:36  <Samu> still quick
16:42:04  <Alberth> what are you going to do with 20K industries?
16:42:11  <Samu> test AIs
16:42:46  <Alberth> you really beleive an AI will connect anywhere near 1000 industries?
16:43:13  <Samu> i really don't know what to expect
16:43:29  <Samu> wanted to put them to their limits
16:43:54  <Samu> zlib:1 or lzo?
16:44:02  <Samu> for savegame format
16:44:52  <Alberth> mostly affects savegame size and cpu usage for saving
16:45:21  <Samu> it can't take more than 1 month saving
16:45:22  <Alberth> if you don't care for size, zlib is likely less cpu intensive
16:45:42  <Alberth> but the additional data that you need to save may kill that advantage
16:45:53  <Alberth> disk streaming is also quite finite :p
16:46:10  <Borg> cache!!! my friend.. cache!
16:46:11  <Borg> ;)
16:46:29  <Alberth> yeah, 1TB cache will work :p
16:46:40  <Samu> also, the spectator can't disconnect while server is saving
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16:46:55  <Samu> i need to ensure spectator keeps connected with all autosaves going on
16:46:59  <Borg> anyway
16:47:04  <Borg> im going to start new server... anyone?
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16:48:29  <Samu> number of ops, what u suggest
16:49:05  <Samu> min 5k? default 10k? 16.666? 80k? max 250k?
16:50:08  <Samu> Wormnest: how many op codes do u got when u test AIs?
16:52:27  <Samu> think i'm gonna play safe and use defaults
16:52:48  <Samu> 10,000 / medium
16:53:14  <Samu> 10,000 ops / medium speed / easy profile
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17:05:26  <Samu> gonna turn off cargodist and infrastructure costs
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17:13:09  <Samu> hope I don't regret setting 10k ops
17:26:15  <Samu> just started the test
17:37:07  <Samu>
17:38:08  <Samu> it can live with it
17:38:28  <Samu> hope my rig doesn't overheat or crash
17:40:00  <Samu> so as I can see, LuDiAI was the fastest starter
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17:42:57  <Samu> seems that zlib:1 was a good compromise
17:43:16  <Samu> it is enough to save without the spectator dropping
17:43:25  <Samu> enough speed
17:46:40  <LordAro> why do you need to run a server?
17:46:50  <LordAro> can you not just start_ai ?
17:46:54  <LordAro> from the console*
17:47:32  <Samu> uh... I don't know, I got used to this
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17:48:17  <LordAro> running half as many ottd instances seems preferable ;)
17:50:07  <Samu> holy crabs, nonocab v5 has started building 1 year later, I was gonna expect 15 years or more, but no, it just started, only 1 year later
17:50:18  <Samu> nice job Wormnest
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17:56:56  <Wormnest> Samu: I´ve never experimented with opcodes always leave it default
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18:08:47  <Samu> terron dumps so much log text
18:09:26  <Samu> cleanest log award goes to trAIns
18:09:51  <Samu> "looping..."
18:10:08  <Samu> very informative...
18:10:15  <Wormnest> Well if you set NoNoCAB´s log settings to errors only you won´t see much either
18:11:49  <Samu> LuDiAI is seriously fast
18:12:01  <Samu> it is about to reach £1M worth
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18:12:30  <Samu> it's a new AI isn't it? I don't recall seeing it before last year
18:14:08  <Samu> first to reach £1 million
18:14:51  <Samu> crap, wrong image
18:15:16  <andythenorth> o/
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18:15:43  <Samu>
18:16:13  <Wolf01> o/
18:16:59  <Samu> hi
18:17:51  <frosch123> moo
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18:20:05  <Wormnest> LuDiAI is fairly new yes. I think it was a university project, which probably means we won´t see any updates to it.
18:23:00  <Samu> i see it abuses station spreading
18:23:04  <Samu> meh...
18:23:07  <Samu> cheater
18:23:25  <Samu> kinda hard to compete vs that
18:23:28  <Borg> what spread u have set?
18:23:32  <Samu> 64
18:23:35  <Borg> da fuck?!
18:23:51  <Borg> anything larger that 21 is fucking abuse..
18:23:51  <Borg> ;)
18:23:57  <Borg> I usualy play with 14
18:24:18  <Samu> i wanna avoid AIs crashing, so i set most limits to its max
18:24:22  <Samu> :p
18:24:31  <Borg> biased testing ;p
18:26:00  <Wormnest> Well if AI´s crash then they need to fix it. Only good if problems are found with more regular settings :p
18:27:08  <Wormnest> Though I doubt there will be a lot of problems with setting lower station spread
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18:35:47  <Samu> i promise next time I will test really hard settings
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18:39:25  <Samu> i'm surprised this is running so well
18:39:47  <Samu> 8 servers each 4096x4096
18:40:00  <Samu> there seems to be no delays
18:40:44  <Samu> there's a few pauses during month transitions due to autosave, but that's all
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27963 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2018-01-11 19:45:39 +0100 )
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> norwegian (bokmal): 2 changes by Leifbk
18:54:18  <frosch123> ^^ that guy broke firs :p
18:55:30  <Samu> seems that LuDiAI doesn't build more than 500 road vehicles :(
18:55:36  <Samu> i've set the limit to 5000
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18:58:17  <frosch123> andythenorth:
18:58:23  <frosch123> fixed firs
18:58:47  <andythenorth> why did STR_EMPTY have chars? :o
18:58:58  <frosch123> no idea, translators added them?
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18:59:09  <andythenorth> hmm
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18:59:28  <andythenorth> dunno
19:00:11  <frosch123> you added them
19:00:25  <frosch123> and removed them again in english, but translators kept them
19:00:28  <andythenorth> ah
19:00:41  <andythenorth> I've pushed, will eints just keep over-writing my local change?
19:01:28  <andythenorth> thanks also
19:01:44  <frosch123> eints is fine
19:02:23  <andythenorth> I can fix the issue permanently if it's worth it
19:02:29  <andythenorth> by making that string non-translated
19:21:07  <Wolf01> So, any cat?
19:28:15  <Samu> I'll post a screenshot when the first AI reaches £10M
19:32:32  <andythenorth> Wolf01: wondering about catenary cat
19:32:52  <andythenorth> wondering if the drawing is a loop, and if we can just run it twice
19:33:00  <andythenorth> once per road and tram
19:36:38  <Wolf01> Why a loop when you can hardcode both drawings?
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19:41:11  <andythenorth> that too
19:41:58  <V453000> iz snake/
19:41:59  <V453000> ?
19:42:03  <V453000> iz slug?
19:43:10  <Wolf01> Iz broken splitter
19:49:00  <andythenorth> iz chicken for tea
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19:57:11  <Samu>
19:57:15  <Samu> first to £10M
19:58:01  <Samu> next screenshot is first to £100M :p
20:04:52  <Samu> Wormnest: WormAI transports oil from oil wells in temperate tileset, is that intended? :o
20:05:04  <Samu> it's that kind of industry that wear off
20:07:22  <Wormnest> WormAI uses any industry that´s available.
20:07:59  <Borg> Wormnest: hope you coded it when industry is closed :)
20:09:07  <Wormnest> Borg: It will notice when profits go down and then sell vehicles. Can´t remember if it handles industry closing news but I think not
20:09:24  <Wormnest> There´s always more things to improve ;)
20:11:00  <Samu> LuDiAI is really crazy about airports
20:11:15  <Samu> the distance from one to another can clearly surpass 2000 tiles
20:12:13  <Samu> Not sure if that much distance makes it viabl
20:12:14  <Wormnest> more distance = more profits unless the planes are too slow
20:12:29  <Samu> yes, in this map size, they're only arriving at next year or so
20:13:51  <Samu> FFP Dart has just released, so maybe it can help him
20:15:19  <Samu> from 906x1687 to 3090x287
20:15:25  <Samu> halp me calculate distance
20:15:58  <Samu> @calc 3090-906 + 1687-287
20:15:58  <DorpsGek> Samu: 3584
20:16:02  <Samu> woah...
20:16:08  <LordAro> not quite
20:16:27  <LordAro> unless it travels in straight lines
20:18:49  <Wormnest> It´s apparently made for a bachelor thesis, link to google translation, original in czech:
20:19:47  <LordAro> @calc (3090-906)-(1687-287) + sqrt(2 * (1687-287))
20:19:47  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 836.915026221
20:20:27  <LordAro> @calc (3090-906)-(1687-287) + sqrt(2 * (1687-287)^2)
20:20:27  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
20:20:33  <LordAro> @calc (3090-906)-(1687-287) + sqrt(2 * (1687-287)**2)
20:20:33  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 2763.89898732
20:20:36  <LordAro> that's better
20:27:59  <andythenorth> conflict in media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png eh :P
20:28:02  <andythenorth> such joy
20:31:40  <andythenorth> that will be resolved in photoshop eh :P
20:38:46  <LordAro> andythenorth: eh?
20:39:03  <andythenorth> branch merge
20:39:36  <LordAro> when on earth did that file get changed
20:46:00  <frosch123> paul fixed some fire-cycle pixels in the switch-toolbar icon
20:46:23  <LordAro> ah
20:55:48  <andythenorth> how do I rebuild openttd.grf?
20:55:52  <andythenorth> will just make do it?
20:56:42  <LordAro> there's a make rule somewhere..
20:57:29  <frosch123> if it finds grfcodec in your PATH, make will do
20:57:50  <andythenorth> ach
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21:03:20  <andythenorth> frosch123: were the pixels in two yellow arrows?
21:03:48  <frosch123> paul redrew the whole icon
21:03:55  <frosch123> but they were in the right arrow
21:04:37  <andythenorth> ok I'm pasting it in :P
21:05:18  <andythenorth> might have worked
21:05:25  * andythenorth hopes
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21:06:23  <andythenorth>
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21:19:10  <andythenorth> so where's catenary then :P
21:19:27  <andythenorth>
21:19:33  <andythenorth> oops bad paste
21:19:35  <andythenorth> DrawRoadCatenary
21:20:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so did I understand, we could patch GetCustomRoadSprite to return a composite sprite?
21:20:37  <andythenorth> I might have crossed wires (no pun intended) :P
21:20:50  <Wolf01> Yep
21:20:56  <andythenorth> probably the most appropriate use of 'crossed wires' ever :P
21:21:12  <andythenorth> so we have a sprite compositor? o_O
21:22:58  <Wolf01> No, we have layering
21:23:55  <andythenorth> hmm
21:24:00  * andythenorth brave new world
21:24:04  <andythenorth> so how do we do this? o_O
21:24:14  <Wolf01> Sprite slicing and composition would be cool
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21:31:31  <andythenorth> I could just duplicate all of DrawRoadCatenary()
21:31:40  <andythenorth> and reuse for tram
21:31:47  <andythenorth> but it seems redundant eh
21:33:37  <Wolf01> Nah, it should be possible to reuse it
21:34:43  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
21:34:43  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 14 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
21:34:50  <Sacro> He never returns :(
21:35:20  <LordAro> hey, he did that one time, 6 years ago
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21:40:48  <Wolf01> andythenorth: from L:1430 it should be possible to draw 1 or both catenaries, you need to pass RoadTypeIdentifiers instead of RoadTypeIdentifier to the function btw
21:43:29  <andythenorth> what do we do?
21:43:37  <andythenorth> call it twice, or loop inside it?
21:43:44  <andythenorth> it = DrawRoadCatenary
21:43:51  <Wolf01> Loop inside
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21:44:22  <andythenorth> ok that's for tomorrow then
21:45:19  <Wolf01> I can't be here tomorrow, also I need to sleep now
21:45:38  <Wolf01> Saturday I could help you
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21:50:30  <andythenorth> ok
21:50:33  <andythenorth> also sleep here :)
21:50:36  <andythenorth> GN
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21:51:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:37:46  <Samu> Wormnest: have you checked terron code? I don't understand its logic
22:38:02  <Samu> why sell vehicles if they're profiting
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22:38:32  <Wormnest> No I didn´t sorry
22:38:56  <Wormnest> Maybe there are newer and better vehicles available?
22:39:10  <Samu> in 1964, i think not
22:39:26  <Samu> i had 300 road vehicles once, now it only got 70
22:39:34  <Samu> profit graph is diminishing
22:39:45  <Samu> it*
22:39:51  <Wormnest> Or they were getting old
22:40:36  <Samu> that's the thing, they don't even get old
22:40:44  <Samu> he's constantly recycling?
22:42:37  <Samu> he's using transfers, i dont' really understand this ai
22:44:35  <Wormnest> Might be it thinks it needs less vehicles on a route
22:47:36  <Samu> I wonder if easy profile has a bad effect on him
22:47:55  <Samu> last test, he did much better, the profile there was hard
22:48:04  <Samu> now it looks too weak
22:49:04  <Wormnest> Well easy profile is meant to take it easier.
22:49:38  <Wormnest> WormAI takes longer timeouts between doing things in the easy setting too
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22:52:11  <Ancient1> hello earthly beings
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22:53:49  <Samu> terron log goes like this...
22:53:55  <Samu> terminating link ...
22:54:04  <Samu> selling specified vehicles
22:54:08  <Samu> route revealed!
22:54:48  <Samu> constantly doing this cycle
22:55:03  <Samu> seems that lately, he's terminating and selling more vehicles though
22:55:18  <Ancient1> are you cracking it?
22:55:58  <Samu> road route reveals are 99% VALU
22:56:03  <Samu> VALU is for valuables, ya?
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22:57:06  <Ancient1> What is WormAI?
22:57:18  <Samu> it's an AI company
22:57:38  <Ancient1> they make a specific AI for games?
22:58:41  <Wormnest> Yes valuables
22:59:46  <Samu> what causes Terron to "terminate links" or "selling specified vehicles"
22:59:53  <Samu> can u dig his code? :p
23:00:47  <Wormnest> I probably can if I wanted to but I don´t want to
23:00:51  <Samu> I think he overdoes it
23:00:58  <Samu> oki :)
23:01:15  <Ancient1> maybe you should pay him more so he works less
23:01:24  <Samu> it's still a mystery to me, this terron
23:01:34  <Wormnest> But in general it will be because for whatever reason it thinks its best to sell
23:01:38  <Ancient1> the AI is flawed
23:01:42  <Samu> i usually understand what's going on, but not with it
23:01:50  <Wormnest> Either because of low profits or too many vehicles on a route
23:01:51  <Samu> with terron
23:03:29  <Ancient1> sell it to the big bro companies. their AIs are probably far worse
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23:52:29  <Samu> first to £100M value
23:52:30  <Samu>
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