Log for #openttd on 20th January 2018:
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09:09:54  <Alberth> o/
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09:30:23  <Wolf01> Moin
09:30:44  <Alberth> moin
09:31:16  <Wolf01> So, it looks like I'm unalbe to solve even the simplest shunting puzzle :(
09:31:32  <Wolf01> Also unable to type
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09:32:51  <Wolf01> Meow
09:38:21  <andythenorth> hi
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09:47:12  <Alberth> write a program to solve it :p
09:47:52  <Wolf01> Nah, it's more funny to drive the shunter manually
09:57:43  <Alberth> fair enough :)
09:58:21  <Alberth> when I program a solver, I usually get a deeper understanding of the puzzle, and what I missed in solving it manually.
09:58:39  <Alberth> However, it does kill the fun in solving it manually.
09:59:41  <Wolf01> Like my "lights out" solver, it logs moves you do and then deletes what you did duplicate to reduce the number of moves to show you the perfect solution :D
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10:03:41  <Wolf01> Oh, finally I managed to rotate an entire consist
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10:07:57  <Alberth> try long enough and you will succeed :)
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11:05:03  <Wolf01> Yay, I did it|
11:05:05  <Wolf01> !
11:05:20  <Wolf01> Now I only need to add the rules to the route
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11:23:00  <Borg> did what?
11:23:41  <Wolf01> Shunting puzzle
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12:28:59  <Wolf01> Mmmh   ===T=1======>======2=T===, (1 and 2 are trains, T are triggers, > is junction), I start with 2 trains heading to the junction and need to make them overtake so they can continue, the junction only has space for 1 wagon, the problem with the triggers are that if I make the trains visit the left one by reversing 1 and moving forward 2, the right one one by reversing 2 and moving forawrd
12:28:59  <Wolf01> 1 I win the puzzle XD
12:30:01  <Wolf01> I should remove points if I find trains pass the triggers in reverse
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13:24:39  <Samu> hello
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13:25:33  <Alberth> hola
13:27:33  <frosch123> moi
13:30:47  <Wolf01> Bye, D&D session
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13:34:30  <Samu> do you know why DictatorAI log appears to handle trains, but never builds any?
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14:24:15  <supermop> yo
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14:37:33  <Samu> wow
14:37:49  <Samu> DictatorAI has a bad use of terraform
14:38:08  <Samu> terraforms on open water
14:39:03  <Samu> blocks his own ships
14:41:51  <Samu> Lazy profile is doing better than opportunist and dictator
14:42:15  <Samu> sounds wrong
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15:12:16  <Samu> okay, dictator is now ahead of lazy profile
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16:07:01  <Samu> dictatorai wastes most of the time trying to upgrade airports
16:07:07  <Samu> only to fail
16:07:22  <Samu> then repeats shortly after
16:26:18  <Samu> was this a bad patch?
16:26:29  <Samu> I wanted to hear some opinions
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17:06:11  <Alberth> title doesn't come close to covering the changes that you make?
17:06:51  <Alberth> ie helicopter stuff, aircraft servicing, aircraft range limits
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17:52:28  <Samu> i see i got a problem
17:53:01  <Samu> i try to do one thing, but then i realize that I have to do more for it to work well
17:54:00  <Samu> then i try to implement everything on the same patch, and the initial titlle may no longer make sense
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17:59:10  <Samu> to make the different aircraft types work with the addition of the new setting, I realised I had to touch servicing code, go to hangar code. I inadvertedly had to touch helicopters afterwards
18:00:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: what you up to? :)
18:00:59  <frosch123> fixing devzone
18:01:19  <andythenorth> :o
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18:01:20  <andythenorth> thanks
18:01:24  * andythenorth is playing tanks
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18:01:48  <frosch123> read the nginx beginner tutorial
18:01:51  <frosch123> then changed stuff
18:01:54  <frosch123> seems to work :p
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18:05:31  <Samu> at the same time, I really wanted to solve a long standing problem with helicopters: service at helipads versus breakdowns. Since I was touching servicing code, and go to hangar, I was like "why not fix this too?"
18:05:38  <Samu> so there you have it...
18:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> changing stuff from the tutorial is the most difficult thing
18:06:31  <Samu> there is service that doesn't require engine replacing and a service that does, I had to differentiate
18:06:54  <Samu> due to service at helipad setting being a headache
18:08:14  <Samu> Alberth: other than the patch having a bad title, what u think about it as a whole
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18:10:33  <Alberth> it's normal that you find other spots once you start digging
18:11:29  <Alberth> then you decide if it belongs in the same patch, or it must be a new patch
18:12:07  <Alberth> For trunk, typically you would make a new patch (a new commit) if you change some other thing.
18:12:47  <Alberth> tbh, I have no idea what "as a whole" is, it seems a random collection of aircraft fixes
18:13:14  <Alberth> fix/changes  perhaps
18:14:35  <Samu> the idea for that patch was to really disable large aircraft landing on airports with short runway.
18:14:56  <Samu> i thought that maybe this would "help" players
18:15:36  <Samu> if the aircraft is not avaliable to purchase at a small airport hangar, they are being "helped"
18:15:59  <Samu> or if they try to put an order on a small airport, it just doesn't accept it
18:19:03  <Samu> i like to say this feature is similar to railway vs electrified railway
18:21:35  <Samu> "the whole collection of fixes" is what's killing it, right :(
18:27:33  <Samu> I will try to separate everything into small patches once I get back
18:27:46  <Alberth> if that's "the whole", then yes, it's too large
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18:28:17  <Alberth> patch shoudn't do more than what the label on the box says :)
18:29:17  <Alberth> as for the other parts, I have no clue; I never played with range limits
18:29:38  <Alberth> no idea how it works and what its problems are or are not
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18:30:57  <Alberth> tbh I am not sure your patch counts as helping; you're killing a game mechanic
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18:31:21  <Samu> i remember that I have savegames ready to show those issues
18:31:31  <Samu> but not on this house
18:31:46  <Alberth> ie it's possible to land a large aircraft in a small airport, but it comes with a risk
18:32:12  <Alberth> a player should imho weigh that advantages against the risks, and decide
18:32:21  <Alberth> the patch makes the decision for him
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18:32:35  <Samu> yes, but aircraft crashes setting could be disabled
18:32:50  <Alberth> yes, the risk is 0 then
18:33:04  <Samu> the risk is gone, and now players can abuse big planes on small airports :(
18:33:50  <Alberth> yep, just as people can disable breakdowns, use newgrfs that allow trains running on all track types, level the netire terrain, and lots of other things
18:34:32  <Alberth> simple solution is not to play with people that are not compatible with your preferences
18:35:00  <Alberth> trying to change people is mostly wasted effort
18:35:18  <Samu> wanted to enforce the differentiation :(
18:37:19  <Samu> there is currently no middle option to setup a server where ppl have no aircraft crashes
18:37:30  <Samu> and still use the correct aircraft sizes
18:37:52  <Samu> it feels like something is amiss
18:38:18  <Samu> so I went ahead with this patch, to offer that possibility :|
18:39:59  <Samu> i could setup max station size up to 5x5 tiles,, which would completely disable large airports, and intending a server with small airports only. Naturally, I want ppl to use small airplanes, but with aircraft crashes disabled, they would end building large planes :(
18:40:08  <Samu> there's a lack of flexibility here
18:40:44  <Alberth> it may be simpler to make a newgrf that disables the small airport
18:41:25  <Samu> you meant large airports?
18:43:49  <Samu> sorry, I have to go... be back later. tc
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18:57:53  <andythenorth> this is weird
19:16:51  <frosch123> it's the old thing
19:17:09  <frosch123> secondary industries close after 5 years of no service
19:17:29  <frosch123> if they are all spawned at the same time (e.g. game start), they all close at the same time
19:17:39  <frosch123> it's more extreme on huge maps
19:17:45  <frosch123> blame huge maps
19:34:07  <Borg> or!
19:34:12  <Borg> use my gamescript ;)
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20:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i suggested a long time ago that there should be "inactive" areas that a player never touched, and the shutdown counter there is halted
20:12:19  <Borg> nah...
20:12:23  <Borg> its ok.. in my opinion
20:12:30  <Borg> that would make game too much static
20:12:45  <Borg> its already become kind static.... if you serve industries right
20:12:48  <andythenorth> industry regions would be really nice
20:12:53  <andythenorth> dunno why
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20:13:15  <andythenorth> dumb proposal: randomise some bits per town
20:13:21  <andythenorth> use them for industry stuff
20:13:26  <andythenorth> including closure
20:13:31  <Borg> well... leave that to GS?
20:13:38  <andythenorth> dunno, maybe
20:13:47  <Borg> also.. I wonder who choosed Squi... whatever.. as OpenTTD GS....
20:13:47  <andythenorth> problem is Only One GS
20:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there are random bits for towns, it's called town name
20:14:04  <andythenorth> "GS can fix it" is pretty limited IRL
20:14:10  <andythenorth> it's a nice theory
20:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: i think it was TrueBrain
20:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> with a "... this is not negotiable"
20:14:34  <frosch123> Borg: there are essentially only lua and squirrel. and lua is terrible
20:15:07  <Borg> LUA is terrible?
20:15:11  <Borg> are you fucking kidding me?
20:15:20  <Borg> I see LUA superrior to GS
20:15:28  <Borg> I mean squirrel.. ;P
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20:21:24  <Borg> learning GS.. I noticed that OpenTTD programmers.. love OO.. to the extent.....
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20:35:36  <LordAro> i'm not convinced lua was a viable option at the time
20:36:02  <LordAro> Borg: OO comes with squirrel, it's not a OTTD thing
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20:47:03  <Borg> LordAro: I know. but.. its so abused in GS.. ;) in my opinion
20:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> certainly OO is an invention by openttd... nobody else ever did it, and openttd is pure OO
20:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> *hint*: all the statements above are false
20:50:41  <LordAro> Borg: i'd imagine you feel the same way about java
21:01:11  <andythenorth> python? o_O
21:14:22  <Borg> LordAro: yeah... Java.. ugh
21:14:32  <Borg> andythenorth: python is a laught. if we speak about OO..
21:14:51  <andythenorth> such objects
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22:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> not every usage of objects is automatically OO
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22:19:19  <Samu> hi Wormnest
22:19:40  <Samu> i reported a crash, did you see it
22:19:46  <Samu> wondering what happened
22:20:19  <Wormnest> Hi Samu, yeah I saw I know what I need to change just don´t have a lot of time atm
22:21:41  <Samu> the assertion failed
22:22:28  <Wormnest> Yes, I think although very rare its possible at that place for an engine to become invalid
22:22:56  <Wormnest> This was still part of the original nocab I think
22:23:53  <Samu> oh, vehicles expire is enabled
22:23:58  <Samu> i've enabled it lately
22:24:07  <Samu> so maybe that could be the cause
22:24:13  <Samu> airports also expire
22:24:24  <Samu> well, only the small airport though
22:25:23  <Wormnest> Yes as far as I can see it´s like because some engine expired but ai should handle that
22:25:44  <Samu> i've been messing around with AIs whom I've spent less time with
22:26:11  <Samu> have you ever seen DictatorAI build trains in your tests?
22:26:39  <Wormnest> I think so
22:27:08  <Samu> strange, i never was able to see trains
22:27:41  <Samu> the log shows that it's dealing with wagons and engines, but then... I see nothing built
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22:28:00  <Wormnest> But I can´t say I really remember details of any past ai tests
22:29:25  <Samu> I've been also trying to understand what is BorkAI doing with all that town cache
22:30:51  <Samu> dictatorAI has airport upgrading. It's was the first time I Saw an AI build a intercontinental airport
22:31:06  <Samu> but he risks too much
22:31:21  <Samu> demolishes the old airport to plant the new
22:31:46  <Samu> fails most of the time, I'm surprised it still rebuilds the previous airport
22:32:03  <Samu> on fail
22:33:15  <Samu> When will wormAi get road or ship support? :p
22:33:24  <Wormnest> WormAI has upgrading of airports too
22:33:43  <Samu> oh, never seen intercontinental
22:33:45  <Wormnest> Whenever I have time and feel like doing it :p
22:33:49  <Samu> the largest
22:34:06  <Wormnest> Maybe it doesn´t do that one, can´t remember
22:34:12  <Samu> 9x11 tiles
22:34:42  <Wormnest> In most cases you won´t need one that big anyway
22:34:52  <Samu> dictatorai really is insane regarding terraform
22:35:10  <Samu> for that intercontinental airport, he leveled a whole mass of land on water
22:35:15  <Samu> i can't imagine the costs
22:36:15  <Samu> well, for ship support, I suggest looking at NoNoCAB code :p
22:36:20  <Wormnest> as long as you don´t have infrastructure costs you will earn it back fast
22:37:58  <Samu> for road, i would say mogulai for industries, it gave me the idea it's smart and fast enough
22:39:23  <Samu> for town, I'm not sure yet. AroAI always seem to leave a good impression, but... there seems to be no perfect bus ai
22:40:12  <Samu> cluelessplus is ultra slow...
22:40:47  <Samu> what do u think it's best?
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22:48:32  <Wormnest> Well my plan for adding ships is indeed to use part of nonocab but ofcourse with different decision making for how to select a route
22:49:09  <Wormnest> What ai is best also depends on the settings. I don´t think there´s one ai that always performs best
22:53:18  <Samu> this new AI, LuDiAI is quite efficient at doing buses, but... he's a cheater, not fair to count it on
22:53:47  <Samu> station spreading, to increase coverage
22:56:03  <Samu> i'm not sure what to say about Convoy. it's one of the AIs i don't usually pay attention, will take a closer look at the things he does
23:01:15  <Wormnest> That´s not cheating, it´s allowed. I do it too sometimes
23:05:24  <Samu> i think i should start a bus competition ai one day, lol
23:05:33  <Samu> clear up my doubts about the issue
23:06:18  <Samu> problem will be how to prevent ais from building trucks
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