Log for #openttd on 21st January 2018:
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03:26:43  <supermop> yo
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03:31:59  <supermop_home> @logs
03:31:59  <DorpsGek> supermop_home:
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08:59:05  <andythenorth> o/
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09:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ... finally someone put some sense into pasenger generation?
09:10:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that certainly explains why the passenger generation problem is worse with newgrf houses
09:26:34  <peter1138> ?
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09:59:29  <andythenorth> generation grows quadratically or something
09:59:33  <andythenorth> which explains a lot
09:59:37  <andythenorth> forum thread about it
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10:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: basically, as far as i understood it, passenger generation uses the house population both for the chance to generate passengers at all, and for the amount of passengers to generate, so a house with double population will generate 4 times the passengers over the same timeframe
10:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
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10:58:17  <Wolf01> o/
11:06:17  <peter1138> ah
11:09:07  <Wolf01> Hmm
11:13:06  <Borg> soo ? is that a problem?
11:13:12  <Borg> let it be so...
11:15:02  <peter1138> well
11:15:48  <peter1138> what house populations are possible?
11:23:55  <Wolf01> BTW, just make it a setting: pax generation -> quadratic|linear XD
11:24:43  <Wolf01> We need to remove everything from the game and just keep the core, move all to GS/NewGRF
11:26:01  <Borg> hold on....
11:26:12  <Borg> can GS carry it?
11:26:16  <Borg> also NewGRF?
11:26:31  <Wolf01> We are discussing this for like 2 years
11:26:36  <Wolf01> "We"
11:29:22  <Wolf01> The game as it is can't be fixed because 1) the base game should work like the original game; 2) you can't force all the players to play as *you* want, even if it's a fix (see the pax generation problem); 3) how many settings do you want for every single bit of feature the game provides? We already moved a lot of settings in CFG only as they were too much and they still are too much
11:30:20  <Borg> but moving too much out of the game engine.. might be step backward.. imo
11:30:43  <Borg> remember that OpenTTD is client/server
11:31:07  <Wolf01> The solution is to do it like NoAI, move it out of the game, provide a base script which behave like the original game, let players use their own scripts to change the entire way the game works
11:36:11  <Wolf01> Lets take as example one of the old discussion I had with andy, trees: current trees are limited, we wanted to change their distribution and which types could appear in different places of the map -> explosion of settings, we then decided that making a grf which has its own settings for each tree is the best way
11:36:39  <Wolf01> The problem is to find the time and will to do it :P
11:38:42  <Borg> uh... lucky.. I dont get much about trees...
11:38:52  <Borg> I just generate map w/o them. and allow them to grow everywhere..
11:39:06  <Borg> after 50 years...  there are nice forest here and there :)
11:39:25  <Borg> and they even group themself w/ types ;)
11:41:08  <Wolf01> What if you want snowy tops without trees, evergreen trees/bushes in certain areas, different trees near water?
11:41:50  <Borg> yeah.. not possible now..
11:42:21  <Borg> but the game is about transportation.. not trees planting.. heh
11:42:28  <Borg> go play.. forest simulator instead ;))
11:43:16  <Wolf01> Some of us want also to create beautiful landscapes and not just ottdcoop massive transportation systems with 234534 parallel tracks
11:43:55  <Borg> uh... game have very limited landscape posibilities.. due to its tile nature...
11:44:14  <Wolf01> Yes, but you still have possibilities
11:44:56  <Borg> and I i am not fan of openttdcoop massive tracks stuff too ;P
11:47:04  <Borg> Wolf01: so I guess u play mostly on 32bit? w/ extended static grf graphics?
11:47:18  <Wolf01> Nope, I only play 8bpp
11:47:55  <Borg> oh ok..
11:49:07  <Flygon> <Eddi|zuHause> that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
11:49:15  <Flygon> I always wanted a set that somehow simulated urban sprawl.
11:49:19  <Flygon> And rural farmhouses.
11:49:28  <Flygon> But I'm not sure that's all that practicable in OpenTTD.
11:50:05  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> what house populations are possible? <-- i think it's 0..255
11:50:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: sure, but that is completely besides the point
11:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: pikka tried to do something like that where rural "towns" have low-population 2x2 houses
12:00:08  <Flygon> Yeah, I was thinking in terms of... like.
12:00:10  <Flygon> 8*8
12:00:22  <Flygon> But that's clearly not going to work for very obvious reasons.
12:03:54  <Borg> just add extra option ;)
12:04:01  <Borg> there is flag where town is a city..
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12:20:33  <Wolf01> o/
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12:38:10  <Wolf01> Quak
12:38:29  <frosch123> moo
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12:44:22  <andythenorth> hi
12:46:23  <Wolf01> Nice, I found some shunting puzzles already made for tane
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13:26:07  <Borg> I wonder why still station rating calculation is not fixed..
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13:26:26  <Borg> having bonus for vehicles <2 years old is riduculus...
13:26:35  <Borg> it should be like <10 years..
13:26:40  <Borg> linear.
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13:50:53  <Samu> heyllo
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13:51:33  <Samu> so i've been looking at AIs and how they build buses
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13:52:04  <Samu> AdmiralAI has an impressive layout
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13:52:30  <Samu> how did i miss it before :(
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13:52:50  <Samu> Wormnest:
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13:53:55  <Samu> AIAI, on the other hand, has the most abherrant building style
13:54:04  <Samu> too much station spreading
13:54:29  <Wormnest> Samu?
13:54:32  <Samu> he tries to get coverage of the whole town by station spreading
13:54:41  <Samu> that's me!
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13:55:04  <Samu> I am commenting about the "best bus AI"
13:55:35  <Wormnest> best by what defenition
13:55:37  <Samu> with you, hopefully
13:56:03  <Samu> better looking, better efficiency, speed, all that
13:56:55  <Wormnest> Still, how do you define better looking, efficience etc
13:57:40  <Samu> better looking, I just look at the world, and see how tidy, nice, elegant, lel it is
13:58:11  <Samu> efficient, is about no jams, the speed at which things get built
13:58:21  <Samu> and if it's actually profiting
14:00:28  <Wormnest> The first point seems to be really subjective to personal taste
14:01:11  <Wormnest> Profiting is usually no problem
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14:02:25  <Samu> well yeah, but in this case, it's about buses and towns, so it kind of matters if the stuff is not so jammed, or if the vehicles aren't blocking due to full loadings and that kind of things. Seems harder to manage a bus service than an industry service
14:02:59  <Samu> towns eventually grow
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14:03:48  <Samu> some AIs just build one station in the town, then never looks back, some others, try to expand stations, and there's others that actually build more new stations for the same town
14:03:58  <Wormnest> Especially if you run with multiple ai´s it may not be easy for an ai to make sure there are no traffic jams
14:04:50  <Wormnest> Larger towns attract ai´s and they can cause too much traffic
14:06:22  <Wormnest> NoNoCab tries to compute the amount of vehicles a route can handle but it does not consider other companies or ais also using the same roads
14:06:50  <Wormnest> Ofcourse with traffic jams the profits will go down and then vehicles will start to be sold
14:07:04  <Samu> I see
14:07:24  <Samu> i think CluelessPlus is overly cautions about jams
14:08:01  <Samu> he builds a service, then only starts 2 trucks / buses at a time
14:08:26  <Samu> later on, when he reviews routes, he decides to add 2 more and so
14:08:34  <Samu> quite slow at that
14:08:46  <Samu> but i guess it helps defeat traffic jams
14:08:47  <Wormnest> But gradually increasing can be a good tactic
14:09:25  <Wormnest> Slow but steady can sometimes be better than adding a lot all at once
14:11:05  <Samu> i looked yesterday at convoy, and i believe it has a buggy behaviour
14:11:18  <Samu> most of his vehicles are stopped in depots
14:12:16  <Samu> and from time to time it stalls...
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14:13:12  <Samu> despite that, it has an interesting start regarding speed
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14:14:29  <Samu> he decides to build 14 buses for a route, so he builds all 14, but only starts 2, leaving 12 stopped in depot, I wondered if this was part of his plan, but i believe not, sounds more like a bug
14:15:28  <Samu> when he finishes the 2nd route, he goes back to managing previous routes, and starts 2 more on the first, leaving 10 stopped in depot. but meanwhile, the 2nd route also has vehicles stopped in depot, looks buggy behaviour
14:16:19  <Samu> once every bus is out, at about the 10th bus service, he starts cloning massively
14:17:02  <Samu> 25 cloned buses on the first route, and left stopped in the depot
14:17:24  <Samu> he got 12 + 25 for this route already, very strange
14:17:38  <Samu> erm 14
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14:21:44  <Samu> looking at terron atm
14:22:36  <Samu> terron is a bit special, he deals with mail and busses at the same time, even if i only tell it to deal with busses
14:22:48  <Samu> he considers it town to town cargo
14:25:09  <Samu> i suppose that's an "efficient" idea
14:25:16  <Samu> codewise
14:28:09  <Samu> seems to build 2 pairs of pass/mail in each and every town
14:28:42  <Samu> doesn't look like he builds more than that once towns grow enough
14:30:41  <Samu> ah, i see he expands stations, not really station spreading, just adjacent expanding
14:34:16  <debdog> in FIRS ( ) it says "primary and secondary industries". what does that mean, what's the difference between these categories?
14:38:09  <Samu> primary industry - produces the first cargo
14:38:48  <Samu> secondary industry - requrires first cargo to produce the second cargo
14:39:12  <debdog> ah, ok. thx
14:40:56  <Borg> yeah.. would be better to call primary industry saw raw industry
14:41:01  <Borg> s/saw/as/
14:43:02  <Samu> enough terron, I've seen enough
14:44:45  <Samu> looking at BorkAI again
14:46:22  <Samu> yeah, borkai appears to be overly cautios about traffic jams, let's see
14:48:05  <Samu> hmm, he's slow :(
14:48:09  <Samu> was expecting more
14:50:22  <Samu> too slow for my liking
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14:50:57  <Samu> infrastructure wise, it looks semi-decent, but nearly no buses built
14:56:00  <Samu> 27 vehilces after 35 years on a 128x128 map, too slow
14:57:56  <Samu> he really shouldn't be using full load
14:58:13  <Samu> at least not in the way he builds
15:04:29  <frosch123> debdog:
15:04:58  <debdog> ahh
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15:07:26  <Samu> given enough time (aka 80 years), it's interesting to look at BorkAI bus services
15:07:37  <Samu> he's utterly slow
15:07:46  <Samu> but doesn't look all that bad
15:09:14  <Samu> he renews vehicles, autoreplaces with new models
15:09:24  <Samu> but his route planner is terribly slow
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15:40:39  <Samu> looking at AdmiralAI again
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15:56:40  <debdog> is there something wrong with newgrf ECS & FIRS vehicle set? according to the content downloader it is installed (plus the file exists on the fs) but the newgrf settings does not list it.
15:56:51  <debdog> or could be something wrong on my end?
15:57:36  <debdog> tested with a patched self compiled 1.7.0 and the official .deb package from version 1.7.2
15:58:00  <Samu> click Add
15:58:34  <debdog> I would, if I'd be able to select it first
15:59:13  <debdog> the LCT set is somethihng different
15:59:52  <frosch123> no idea, it works for me
16:00:29  <Samu> what is the name for vehicle set, i'm not familiar with those newgrfs
16:00:45  <debdog> frosch123: which OS?
16:01:00  <frosch123> debian, but shouldn't matter
16:01:11  <debdog> k
16:01:19  <debdog> hum
16:01:42  <Samu> is it Original vehicles cargo set?, unsure
16:01:46  <debdog> does openttd create a log file somewhere?
16:02:08  <frosch123> you can start with command line option "-d misc=3" or something
16:02:12  <Borg> hmmmm HMMM
16:02:33  <Borg> 5 platform 14 tiles long station.. monorail.. can handle 6k goods..
16:02:34  <frosch123> that prints all the tars it scans
16:02:40  <Borg> w/ sharp turn around...
16:02:47  <Samu> "ECS & FIRS vehicle set" is this it?
16:02:59  <frosch123> there should be a "ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set*tar" in it
16:04:46  <debdog> dbg: [misc] Found tar '/home/ax/.openttd/content_download/newgrf/ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set-2014.11.26.tar' with 3 new files
16:05:11  <Samu> yep, it's named "Original vehicles cargo set" once downloaded, just checked
16:05:13  <frosch123> debdog: it was renamed
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16:05:21  <frosch123> it's now called "orignal vehicles cargo set"
16:05:23  <Samu> dunno why it does that
16:05:36  <frosch123> select that in your list, and see the filename on the right :)
16:05:37  <debdog> lol
16:05:53  <debdog> could've searched for years then
16:06:17  <debdog> that one is listed
16:06:19  <frosch123> text filter would have worked
16:06:48  <debdog> how?
16:07:07  <frosch123> text filter also searches the description, any maybe also filename
16:07:38  <debdog> k
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16:09:55  <Samu> frosch123: fix bugs:)
16:12:30  <Samu> yeah, frosch has me on ingore list, i see
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16:39:06  <Samu> CivilAI is confusing
16:39:38  <Samu> he tries too hard, but gets the wrong amount of buses,
16:40:15  <Samu> seems to focus too much on growing towns by themselves, too little profits
16:41:57  <Samu> well, towns grow eventually, but he risks too much
16:53:52  <Samu> chat is dea
16:53:52  <Borg>
16:53:57  <Samu> nevermind
16:54:08  <Borg> isnt that whole table wrong? low byte is cargo type.. not amount
16:56:57  <Samu> Note that the values listed here are big-endian. In order to use the values listed for props 0A..0C in an NFO file, you'll have to reverse the bytes first.
16:57:20  <Samu> eh.. i dunno how to help
16:57:34  <Borg> aaaah ok
16:57:35  <Borg> all clear
16:57:44  <Borg> I missed that...
16:57:54  <Borg> some moron wrote that table.. who game is little endian
16:58:01  <Borg> and he came up w/ big endian here.. doh :)
16:58:09  <Borg> s/who/whole/
16:59:58  <Samu> chinese to me
17:00:05  <Samu> bit endian, little endian
17:00:19  <Samu> oh, big*, not even bit
17:00:39  <frosch123> just read ottd sources
17:00:43  <frosch123> way easier
17:01:24  <Samu> frosch123: do you have me on ignore?
17:01:46  <frosch123>
17:02:37  <Samu> t.t seems that way
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17:09:01  <Samu> CivilAI is decent, if it actually takes off
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17:53:56  <Samu> cpu has vehicles with no orders:(
17:54:11  <Samu> with shared orders!
17:55:59  <Samu> doesn't use autoreplace, but uses autorenew
17:56:36  <Samu> wondering what happens when a model is no longer available to autorenew, what he does
17:57:27  <LordAro> i feel like reading the source code would be a more time efficient way of working that out
17:59:32  <Samu> he sells vehicles with negative profit, but some of these overaged buses
17:59:42  <Samu> don't even get negative profits
17:59:54  <Samu> breakdowns everywhere
18:10:40  <Samu> i feel like creating a disaster
18:10:48  <Samu> explode of old age
18:11:23  <Samu> if a vehicle is past its max age, has reached 255 breakdowns and the model is no longer available, explode it!
18:11:31  <Samu> to clean up the mess
18:13:56  <Alberth> provide a better competing service :)
18:15:40  <Samu> give some meaning to that "and urgently needs replacing" message
18:19:09  <Rubidium> but.... that's not realistic
18:19:27  <Rubidium> you just keep running such a vehicle
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18:21:42  <Samu> :(
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18:28:43  <Snail> hey andythenorth
18:30:50  <andythenorth>  hi Snail
18:31:12  <Snail> hey I’m currently coding your new cargo, PIPE
18:31:16  <andythenorth> yup
18:31:35  <Snail> what kind of metal is PIPE made of?
18:31:48  <Snail> from the wiki it appears it can only be made of steel...
18:31:58  <andythenorth> could be metal or plastic
18:32:10  <andythenorth> might reappear in other economies, not sure
18:32:10  <Snail> not aluminum or copper?
18:32:13  <andythenorth> probably not
18:32:16  <Rubidium> they're made from me!
18:32:23  <andythenorth> seen the chips cargo for it?
18:32:31  * Rubidium is a metal
18:32:43  <Snail> ok… I need to choose which color to make them appear on my flatbed wagons
18:32:49  <andythenorth>
18:33:30  <Snail> steel-like grey, of course, but I was thinking about other subcargoes… such as light grey for aluminum or brownish for copper
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18:33:52  <Snail> hmm I see, so basically only steel-like grey?
18:35:11  <andythenorth>
18:35:38  <andythenorth>
18:35:48  <andythenorth>
18:36:16  <andythenorth>
18:36:42  <andythenorth> grey is pretty safe
18:37:17  <Snail> ok
18:37:28  <Snail> thx
18:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i think DBSet has grey and brown
18:37:48  <Samu> green pipes
18:37:52  <Samu> super mario
18:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (for steel, basically)
18:41:52  <Samu> enough of CPU, he's bad overall
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18:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27965 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2018-01-21 19:45:39 +0100 )
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 43 changes by Absay
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18:52:17  <Samu> speaking of translators, i'm gonna fix something that's irking me for a long time
18:52:34  <Samu> if I'm still a translator, that is
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19:02:20  <Samu> what is this
19:02:29  <Samu> {NUM}%
19:05:27  <Alberth> a number and a percent sign
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19:05:33  <Alberth> 42%
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19:06:04  <Alberth> assuming occupancy doesn't go negative or above 100
19:06:41  <Samu> why are we required to translate that? :
19:07:28  <Wolf01> Because certain languages don't use "42%" format but other ways to show it
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19:08:57  <Wolf01> The placement of the percent sign (%).
19:08:58  <Wolf01> It can be written several ways: 98%, 98 %, 98 pct, %98. Thus you should never assume that you can hard-code the percent sign.
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19:13:24  <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: yes, for Steel and Metal I also have mutiple colors (grey, light grey and copper brown)
19:13:58  <Snail> but if Pipes are not made of copper, it makes little sense to add brown...
19:18:12  <Samu> oki
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19:28:39  <Alberth> use neon orange paint on the pipe, easier to find it back after burying it
19:32:00  <andythenorth> today I learnt about
19:32:08  <andythenorth> who'd have known
19:52:19  <Samu> yesh, i translated pt_PT... i wanna cookie now
19:53:22  <Rubidium> go to any big website for your free share of cookies ;)
19:54:25  <ST2> @Rubidium: 1 - Samu: 0
20:03:52  <Samu> ok enough translation for today
20:04:15  <Samu> those vehicle previews are a bit messed up
20:04:33  <Samu> it was inconsistent, hope it's better now
20:06:01  <Samu> I wonder why I get suggestions from pt_BR
20:06:05  <Samu> lame
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20:36:51  <Samu> EpicTrans is a nasty bus station builder
20:37:11  <Samu> doesn't renew his vehicles
20:37:25  <Samu> and no autoreplace either
20:38:05  <Samu> but it's ultra fast building
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20:38:26  <Samu> so fast, it gets bankrupts warnings from time to time
20:40:24  <Samu> i would give it a 3/10
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20:55:06  <Samu> hi
20:55:23  <Samu> is there a LuDiAI topic? I can't find any
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20:56:08  <Samu> i got a crash report, but no topic to report to
20:56:11  <Samu> bah
20:56:23  <Samu> Wormnest: halp
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20:57:27  <Wormnest> Samu: There is not forum topic for it
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20:58:10  <Wormnest> And seeing as it was a university study topic most likely will never get updates
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20:58:28  <Samu> Your script made an error: parameter 1 has an invalid type '(null)'; expected: 'null'
20:58:59  <Samu> (null) is different than 'null'
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21:47:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:22:37  <andythenorth> also
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23:38:44  <Samu> recessions also affect passengers and mail? I didn't know that
23:38:50  <Samu> I thought it was only for industries
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