Log for #openttd on 5th April 2018:
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00:35:49  <supermop> yo
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05:41:01  <Supercheese> >UKRS3
05:41:03  <Supercheese> wew
05:45:32  <Pikka> lies
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06:17:14  <andythenorth> moin
06:17:34  <andythenorth> Pikka: this pls
06:17:46  <andythenorth> and dibble the stats so its 110mph too
06:18:11  <Pikka> definitely not
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06:18:37  <andythenorth> it's easier to play 'what to leave out'? o_O
06:24:10  <Pikka> well definitely leave out anything with weird articulation that's impossible to draw :P
06:24:59  <andythenorth> I found it much easier
06:25:07  <andythenorth> when I stopped trying to include 'my favourite train'
06:25:23  <andythenorth> same for RVs too
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06:28:07  <Pikka> yeah
06:28:13  <Pikka> but people like their favourite train
06:28:51  <andythenorth> BORTS
06:29:56  <andythenorth> hmm
06:30:05  <andythenorth> do I need not-stupid-fast EMUs?
06:30:32  <andythenorth> mostly so I can include this, one of my favourite trains
06:44:40  <Pikka> mail refit for a generic mk3 MU?
06:47:11  <Pikka> in my 10 locos I had the 321 as the one and only EMU, and this is the mail refit, so it works for me.
06:51:15  <andythenorth> I split pax and mail MUs
06:51:17  <andythenorth> can't remember why
06:56:20  <Pikka> raisins
07:01:24  <Pikka> what do I draw next? 47?
07:01:34  <Pikka> hmm, I need flatcar loads
07:02:03  <andythenorth> me too
07:02:08  <andythenorth> tractors
07:02:26  <andythenorth> 47 is boring
07:02:28  <andythenorth> do a hoover
07:02:30  <andythenorth> or DP2
07:02:35  <andythenorth> or kestrel
07:06:51  <andythenorth> if you do DP2, then you solve the 'everyone puts a Deltic on coal' problem eh ;)
07:06:52  <andythenorth>
07:10:14  <andythenorth> easter egg: 47 randomly repaints to Lion, Falcon or DP2 :P
07:14:14  <Pikka> yes but
07:15:18  <Pikka> "boring" maybe, but it's still more representative, and people like that. There are still 47s and 20s running around today, while all other loco classes of the era are long gone
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07:15:25  <andythenorth> I know :(
07:16:00  <andythenorth> the most representative vehicles are the obvs choice eh
07:16:12  <andythenorth> I just like to mess it up a bit :P
07:16:17  <Pikka> not necessarily, but people like familiarity
07:16:30  <Pikka> and often the reasons they're successful translate into TTD, more or less
07:16:47  <andythenorth> hmm 'reversible symmetric' has angered my compile
07:16:58  <Pikka> oops
07:16:59  <andythenorth> it was all nice and tidy, now I'm inserting BAD FEATURE hax
07:27:22  <Pikka> is reversablity BAD FEATURES?
07:29:16  <andythenorth> if it's just depot flip, it's good
07:29:29  <andythenorth> if you randomly reverse tank engines on build, that's bad features
07:29:32  <andythenorth> but not BAD FEATURES
07:29:43  <andythenorth> bad features are the same as good features
07:29:56  <andythenorth> someone should make a flow chart of FEATURES
07:29:58  <andythenorth> maybe V
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07:38:51  <andythenorth> when a 6/8 vehicle is flipped, what happens to the offsets?
07:47:54  * andythenorth has work to do :P
07:48:18  <peter1138> If the offsets are correct, it should Just Work™
07:49:20  <andythenorth> I think I have done it wrong :P
07:51:14  <andythenorth>
07:51:25  <muffindrake> The wiki says the initial rewrite of the game was done in C, when was that changed?
07:51:41  <peter1138> About 10 years ago.
07:52:33  <peter1138> andythenorth, it's possible it Never Worked™
07:53:44  <andythenorth> it's possible that I am giving the wrong offsets too
07:53:52  <Pikka> andy: you need a second set of sprites with the same offsets
07:54:04  <muffindrake> What C++ standard does the game conform to, then?
07:54:17  <muffindrake> I'm having a hard time scouring the autohell jungle for any std flags
07:54:26  <Pikka> if you want to use the same sprites, you just need to swap the offsets of sprites 1-4 and 5-8
07:54:51  <Pikka> I mean
07:55:10  <peter1138> What autohell jungle?
07:55:14  <Pikka> keep the offsets and switch the sprites, if you want it to flip. whichever way you want to look at it.
07:58:30  <andythenorth> I'm swapping sprites and offsets
07:58:32  <andythenorth> that won't work
07:58:33  <peter1138> As far as I know the offset should place the front of the vehicle in the right place.
07:59:03  <peter1138> That might not work in non-terrain windows, in which case I'd say that's a bug :p
07:59:21  <andythenorth> I'll fix line 52
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08:12:22  <Pikka> bounding boxes vs offsets?
08:12:39  <andythenorth> yeah, line 52 is not the problem I misread my code
08:13:20  <andythenorth> I need to do something else
08:19:50  <Pikka> huh
08:20:45  <Pikka> it's been a while, but maybe it does justwork... there's flipped by the game (right click) and there's flipped sprites in the code... the latter requires the offsets changing, maybe the former doesn't. so maybe it's changing the offsets that's causing the problem.
08:21:48  <andythenorth> I am reading the actual nml
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08:22:02  <andythenorth> rare
08:22:08  <andythenorth> I can't really read nml :P
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08:24:32  <andythenorth> so I have a random varaction 2 that swaps the bounding boxes
08:24:47  <andythenorth> to 'build' the vehicle facing forwards / backwards
08:24:54  <andythenorth> and then I allow flipping
08:26:55  <andythenorth> but the random variation is irrelevant
08:27:14  <andythenorth> forward-facing vehicles have the wrong offsets if they're not 8/8
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08:28:09  <andythenorth> what if the offsets are wrong? o_O
08:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the world will implode
08:39:58  <andythenorth> oops
08:44:50  <andythenorth> seems I do need to check var C8 and provide different offsets
08:45:35  <andythenorth> Pikka: NARS 2 flips 6/8 ok, do you have to handle var C8 there?
08:46:34  <Pikka> possibly
08:47:43  <Pikka> not bounding boxes though :P
08:47:54  <andythenorth> bounding boxes work ok
08:48:29  <andythenorth> the flip is using wrong offsets even without magical bounding box stuff
09:09:46  <andythenorth> yeah checking var C8 fixes it
09:18:39  <andythenorth> if this goes well, we'll get bug reports
09:18:53  <andythenorth> that ctrl-click 'reverses' the engine, instead of changing the livery, in other newgrfs :P
09:35:49  <Pikka> psh :P
09:36:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how about people asking you whether you can make more than 2 variants?
09:37:26  <andythenorth> count the number of times flipped?
09:37:30  <andythenorth> cycle through them?
09:37:45  <andythenorth> might actually be the best solution to the long-standing 'choose livery' pony
09:37:53  <andythenorth> alt-click in depot
09:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you cannot flip
09:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> err
09:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> count flips
09:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and alt is already reserved
09:39:52  <andythenorth> vehicle.symmetry_type == 'symmetric'
09:39:58  <andythenorth> returns True for 'asymmetric'
09:40:05  <andythenorth> do I misunderstand == in python?
09:42:07  <andythenorth> nope, incorrectly closed loop
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10:32:57  <andythenorth> Pikka bob
10:33:03  <andythenorth> such mail car flip
10:33:22  <Pikka> flippin mail cars
10:33:33  <andythenorth> nice thing is, clone preserves the flip
10:33:42  <andythenorth> so the consist livery isn't re-randomised
10:33:52  <Pikka> so now I have to ctrl-click every vehicle I build to check for easter eggs?
10:34:25  <andythenorth> possibly
10:34:32  <andythenorth> mostly it will say 'vehicle cannot be flipped'
10:34:52  <andythenorth> I have more stupidity planned :P
10:34:59  <Pikka> uhoh
10:36:03  <andythenorth> can do quite a bit with 2CC and a fixed accent colour eh
10:36:13  <andythenorth> engine liveries to match consist major cargo
10:36:15  <andythenorth>
10:42:07  <Pikka> just think of the BAD possibilities...
10:49:47  <andythenorth> I am I am :P
10:50:27  <andythenorth> I am enjoying the decision about which generic 0-6-0 to use :)
10:51:06  <andythenorth> the Horse version is named for this, but is drawn as the J11
11:07:47  <Pikka> hmm, yes
11:08:01  <Pikka> but also the J11 is GCR, so...
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11:42:42  <andythenorth> did the railcars too
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11:51:23  <Pikka> fancy
11:51:51  <Pikka> still not convinced flipping liveries isn't badfeatures though :P
11:53:46  <andythenorth> no set is complete without a flaw
11:55:26  <andythenorth> such
11:55:58  <andythenorth>
11:56:35  <peter1138> 32bpp extra zoom woo
11:56:40  <peter1138> Oh, it's a photo.
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11:57:14  <andythenorth> nah it's pikka's new set
11:59:38  <Pikka> 47s are more of a pain to draw than you might think
12:00:37  <Pikka> should I be putting second company colour in my set?
12:01:43  <peter1138> Put 3 in there.
12:01:53  <Pikka> actually... maybe for the 2-tone liveries. so it doesn't matter if players don't set it, it still contrasts.
12:02:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: add 3CC, please :P
12:02:36  <andythenorth> moar is better, right?
12:03:11  <Thedarkb-X40> I'd like to make a set with Irish vehicles and industries but I don't know the first thing about making NewGRFs
12:03:34  <andythenorth> Pikka: doing realistic intro dates on 20 and 47?
12:03:42  <Pikka> yep
12:03:48  <Pikka> and 25 and 37 :P
12:04:08  <Pikka> Thedarkb-X40: pick a vehicle, draw it, code it, go from there.
12:04:45  <andythenorth> where did 25 and 37 come from? :o
12:04:58  <Pikka> they're not in the 10 locos
12:05:03  <andythenorth> 'extra'
12:05:03  <Pikka> but they are in the 20 locos :P
12:05:12  <andythenorth> realistic HP too?
12:05:17  <Pikka> yes
12:05:23  <andythenorth> I'd sack the 25
12:05:30  <andythenorth> but we should do different things eh :)
12:05:38  <Pikka> I like 25s
12:05:41  <andythenorth> yes
12:06:11  <Pikka> also "Type 1, Type 3, Type 4" looks odd as a loco selection
12:06:13  <andythenorth> I should add a 33
12:06:24  <andythenorth> do a 31 :P
12:06:32  <andythenorth> it's a type 2 with wrong prefix number
12:06:32  <Pikka> ew
12:06:42  <andythenorth> I should fix my code
12:06:53  <Pikka> we should all fix our code
12:07:13  <andythenorth> I'm not fixing other people's
12:08:49  <Pikka> theoretical tableau d'loc... shhhh
12:09:47  <Pikka> not sure about when/which pacific yet
12:09:55  <andythenorth> is Horse
12:09:57  <andythenorth> not really
12:10:02  <andythenorth> but there's only so many ways to skin the cat
12:10:11  <Pikka> is horse and is ukrs and is original vehicles, yes
12:10:32  <Pikka> all roads lead to pretty much the same set
12:10:40  <andythenorth> is BROS
12:10:42  <andythenorth> is BORT
12:11:06  <andythenorth> I should finish Horse
12:11:07  <Pikka> unless your BRSet and have a Gresley A4 and sixteen variations on one EMU
12:11:08  <andythenorth> and make NARS
12:11:12  <Pikka> you're too
12:11:21  <andythenorth> also
12:11:23  <Pikka> NARSty
12:11:30  <andythenorth> 14 different GP38s
12:11:42  <Pikka> yes, I heard that horse had multiple rosters
12:11:49  <andythenorth> theoretically
12:12:04  <Pikka> yes
12:12:14  <peter1138> So.
12:12:19  <andythenorth> GP15, GP18, GP20, GP35, GP38, GP38-2, GP39, GP40, GP40-2
12:12:19  <Pikka> where's DanMacK?
12:12:23  <andythenorth> stuff
12:12:25  <andythenorth> and things
12:12:31  <andythenorth> his wife has been ill a lot
12:12:44  <andythenorth> last I heard he was driving tow truck in Ontario winter
12:12:50  <Pikka> yikes
12:12:55  <andythenorth> like Highway Thru Hell, but no rotator
12:13:29  <andythenorth> also 14 kinds of Alco RS are needed
12:13:47  <andythenorth> NARS is my favourite set though
12:14:17  <Pikka> after 2.5, when all the BAD FEATURES got taken out
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12:17:04  <andythenorth> that too
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12:36:07  <Alberth> o/
12:38:02  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
12:38:27  <Alberth> hi hi
12:45:36  <andythenorth> Pikka: doing wagons also? o_O
13:09:21  <Pikka> yers
13:09:52  <Pikka> just the basics
13:11:31  <Pikka> 4-wheel everything, then some bigger wagons in the 60s or so.
13:12:21  <andythenorth> :)
13:12:35  <andythenorth> do you manually repaint the liveries?
13:13:21  <Pikka> I'm drawing everything in grey and then doing colour overlays
13:13:31  <Pikka> since you need to do that for CC in 32bpp anyway
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13:18:02  <supermop_work> yo
13:18:13  <Pikka> yoyo
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13:32:22  * andythenorth auto-magically repaints fridge wagons
13:32:36  <Alberth> pink neon please
13:32:54  <Alberth> or green or so
13:34:40  <andythenorth> you'll have to zoom :P
13:36:33  <Alberth> such tiny pixels :)
13:42:38  * andythenorth avoided drawing 14 wagons
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14:04:38  <Pikka> magic boxcars
14:05:43  <andythenorth> innit
14:08:32  <andythenorth> seems to work
14:08:38  <andythenorth> no need to show the cargo
14:08:41  <andythenorth> just open dorrs
14:12:17  <andythenorth> hmm, show the doors though?
14:13:28  <andythenorth> dunno if that looks better or worse
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14:18:02  <Alberth> gives an idea whether the wagon is full or not
14:18:39  <Alberth> which I consider quite useful
14:19:10  <Pikka> can you normally tell with boxcars? Unless they drive around with the doors open, which - for the UK - is very unprototypical
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14:19:47  <Pikka> gnight
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14:21:14  <Alberth> only during loading
14:21:48  <andythenorth> yeah I drew a gap for loading
14:22:02  <andythenorth> question is whether to also include the doors, moved along side of wagon
14:22:04  <andythenorth> but nah
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14:22:07  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB
14:26:44  <Alberth> would be 2 pixels max?
14:27:18  <Alberth> unless you give them a really different colour, you won't see them at all :)
14:27:39  <andythenorth> exactly
14:28:08  <Alberth> go for 4x zoom, so you can have doors :p
14:28:41  <Alberth> better just use a 32bpp set then :)
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15:07:51  <andythenorth> hmm
15:07:57  <andythenorth> now I do the really BAD FEATURE
15:14:15  <Alberth> :O
15:17:35  <andythenorth> not even sure how to implement it yet :P
15:17:51  <andythenorth> mail cars show livery depending on engine
15:17:59  <andythenorth> but engine livery changes depending on consist :P
15:18:09  <andythenorth> it's nearly a circular reference, but not quite :P
15:26:44  <Alberth> it reads as one :p
15:27:31  <andythenorth> trying pax cars with opening doors right now :P
15:27:32  <andythenorth> looks bad
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15:28:43  <Alberth> that's less than a pixel, probably :p
15:29:14  <andythenorth> it's one pixel wide
15:29:19  <andythenorth> black strip, looks dumb
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15:34:23  <andythenorth> hmm looks good in \ / views though
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15:49:16  <Alberth> :)
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15:55:27  <andythenorth> hmm
15:55:41  <andythenorth> how many different liveries can a 6/8 pax have?
15:55:49  <andythenorth> not many pixels there
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16:08:40  <andythenorth> liveries: 1) both CC, no accent colour 2) both CC, 'local train' accent colour 3) both CC 'express train' accent colour
16:08:47  <andythenorth> probably not going to get more than that eh
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16:10:33  <andythenorth> or I could just make life simple and do 2 liveries
16:16:28  <Alberth> lots of train sets with pax, no need to make new ones :p
16:16:46  <andythenorth> it's an interesting project :)
16:17:58  <andythenorth> there are about 120 wagons
16:18:27  <andythenorth> and only 11 pax wagons
16:18:36  <andythenorth> might as well give them some appearance options
16:19:16  <andythenorth> can we have 3rd CC though? :P
16:24:40  <andythenorth> ho
16:24:49  <andythenorth> I could offset the CC with a remap sprite? o_O
16:24:57  <andythenorth> so you pick blue, 3CC is red
16:24:59  <andythenorth> or so
16:28:19  <Alberth> pobably
16:29:21  <andythenorth> probably shouldn't :P
16:30:12  <andythenorth> I need some BROS peeps
16:30:16  <andythenorth> they know all about liveries
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16:39:51  <andythenorth>
16:42:32  <andythenorth> super realisms
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17:05:13  <Wolf01> o/
17:05:44  <andythenorth> o/
17:05:59  <Wolf01> I'm stressed
17:16:35  <Alberth> less coffee?
17:16:47  <Alberth> but :(
17:16:48  <Wolf01> Not enough
17:16:58  <Alberth> :O
17:17:19  <Wolf01> I only take one espresso at day, maybe 2 but only if I really need it
17:17:54  * peter1138 drinks decaf tea these days.
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17:26:08  <andythenorth> livery brainache
17:26:30  <andythenorth> 5 generations of pax cars
17:26:35  <andythenorth> might as well make them look different eh?
17:27:21  <andythenorth> that's 10 liveries
17:44:47  <andythenorth> I can only invent 5 so far :P
17:46:58  <Wolf01> Put random graffiti on the other 5
17:50:21  <andythenorth>
17:50:37  <andythenorth> and if that looks like noisy crap to you, try
17:53:44  <andythenorth> and in other colours
17:55:18  <andythenorth> I could do angled stripes, but I think it will look very bad
17:56:36  <frosch123> engines are already kind of diagonal
17:56:44  <frosch123> the wagons could pass as german ones
17:56:50  <frosch123> nothing angled there
17:57:06  <andythenorth> I am planning a euro set sometime :P
17:57:19  <andythenorth> the UK stuff looks deliberately kind of euro-ish :P
18:08:57  <andythenorth> this will do
18:08:58  <andythenorth>
18:09:01  <andythenorth>
18:09:05  <andythenorth>
18:09:18  <andythenorth> supermop_work: ^^
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18:42:54  <Thedarkb> What does the current usage in the trains box mean?
18:44:44  <andythenorth> is it % of available cargo capacity used?
18:45:41  <Thedarkb> I don't know
18:45:52  <Thedarkb> I have all trains selected and it just says 34%
18:46:59  <andythenorth> I have 0% with no trains loaded
18:47:08  <andythenorth> so I figure it's cargo capacity utilisation
18:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure what that feature is that you're talking about. but i'd guess it counts delivered cargo per air distance and time spent at max speed
18:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you drive back empty it reduces the number
18:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you wait for full load it reduces the number
18:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if you wait at red signals it reduces the number
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18:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if your track takes detour it reduces the number
18:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if the train accelerates it reduces the number
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18:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> with all that, 34% sounds like a perfectly reasonable number
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20:06:52  <andythenorth> not happy with these mail cars
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20:25:30  <frosch123> less windows?
20:25:39  <frosch123> big doors?
20:25:49  <frosch123> like "goods box van" but in pax colours?
20:26:07  <andythenorth> the doors kind of suck
20:26:15  <andythenorth> got the same problem in Hog and Sam
20:26:20  <andythenorth> mail vehicles :P
20:26:57  <andythenorth> blah blah
20:28:26  <andythenorth> original base set just has big black open doors
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20:29:15  <andythenorth> do trains have some kind of user bit I can set?
20:30:01  <frosch123> like "user=andy?"
20:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> each vehicle has user bits, but you cannot access them, only the OR over all the vehicles in the chain
20:31:18  <andythenorth> can't find them in the docs
20:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (and you cannot assume that all the vehicles come from your GRF)
20:31:55  <andythenorth> I am trying to avoid having to do a large varaction 2 checking lead engine ID
20:32:06  <andythenorth> for a livery trick
20:32:26  <andythenorth> probably I should just do the ID check eh
20:32:42  <frosch123> isn't your code generated anyway? :p
20:32:45  <andythenorth> yes
20:32:53  <andythenorth> I just worry about performance in game
20:33:06  <frosch123> it's a binary lookup now :)
20:33:10  <andythenorth> some of the va2 chains must be ridiculous when compiled
20:33:51  <frosch123> try to create a scenario for hash lookups?
20:35:27  <andythenorth> this is the graphics va2 chain for a single freight vehicle
20:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> "position_in_articulated_veh" is that new?
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20:37:20  <andythenorth> define 'new' :)
20:37:24  <andythenorth> repo will know :P
20:37:56  <frosch123> it's not from ttdp age
20:38:27  <andythenorth> there's no nml expression for 'if n in list' ?
20:38:37  * andythenorth might just write a big ugly switch
20:38:44  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: only 4 years
20:39:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you read your generated code :o
20:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> in other news: free game (free as in "now you have to just pay 140€ to get all the expansions")
20:42:10  <Chrill> Eddi|zuHause I want to Paradox's headquarters a while back!
20:42:14  <Chrill> I went, even
20:42:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: only to debug it
20:42:52  <andythenorth> but rarely
20:42:56  <andythenorth> I can't really read nml
20:43:25  <frosch123> Chrill: paradoxcon?
20:43:40  <Chrill> nein, I did a playtest
20:43:48  * andythenorth needs ID of lead vehicle
20:43:53  <frosch123> i heard they started handing out swords to 20 year employees
20:43:57  <andythenorth> how do I 81 in nml? :P
20:44:03  <andythenorth> must be PARENT or something
20:45:13  <Chrill> It's quite the playground at Paradox
20:45:20  <Chrill> don't see how they ever manage to actually develop their games
20:46:04  <andythenorth> vehicle_type_id looks useful
20:46:25  <andythenorth> hmm things I could do with position_in_vehid_chain :P
20:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> make each consecutive wagon one colour shade lighter :p
20:47:12  <andythenorth> nah
20:47:16  <andythenorth> shift the CC
20:47:19  <andythenorth> rainbow train
20:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> have a continuous drawing
20:49:53  <andythenorth> I'm probably just going to make every 3rd car a restaurant car tbh
20:49:54  <andythenorth> quite boring
20:53:31  <frosch123> nuts already has zebra slugs
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21:00:07  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:06:48  <andythenorth> all that nml for reversing
21:07:04  <andythenorth> but all those vehicles are symmetrical, and non-flippable :P
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22:52:04  <Pikka> evening all
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23:17:27  <Supercheese> Kerbal Train Program... or I would, but no trains mods :(
23:17:47  <Supercheese> none I'm aware of, at least
23:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've seen something along the lines of monorail
23:26:21  <Supercheese> yeah that was pretty cool, but it relied on the Physics Range extending mod
23:26:44  <Supercheese> I guess Road Trains are a thing
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