Log for #openttd on 12th April 2018:
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06:00:02  <peter1138> Morningness.
06:16:14  <__ln__> good morningberg to you as well
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06:23:54  <Wolf01|Phone> @TB:
06:24:03  <Wolf01|Phone> Bye
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06:35:31  <andythenorth> moin
06:39:00  <andythenorth> Pikka o/
06:39:08  <Pikka> o/
06:39:36  <andythenorth> is it?
06:39:49  <andythenorth> how well does your 47 scale down? :P
06:40:03  <andythenorth> I need a 57-ish type train
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06:45:58  <Pikka> hmm.. not fantastically. :P
06:47:43  <Pikka> don't you have one?
06:47:45  <andythenorth> nah
06:47:53  <Pikka> actually, I think I drew one for olde 10cc, let me look
06:48:34  <andythenorth> I need a 57, 89, 68 and 88
06:48:40  <andythenorth> or I fake them
06:49:45  <Pikka> ack, I only did a 37, 66 and 86 :)
06:49:52  <andythenorth> nvm
06:50:01  <andythenorth> I redrew your 37 already :)
06:50:39  <andythenorth> I need an APT-thing, a pendolino and a velar thing too :)
06:51:43  <Pikka> ew, class 88
06:51:55  <andythenorth> 68 with a pantograph innit
06:52:02  <Pikka> yes, also ew 68 :)
06:52:13  <andythenorth> seems I need a 70 as well
06:52:28  <Pikka> do you?
06:52:56  <andythenorth> apparently
06:53:07  <andythenorth> but diesels are easy to draw
06:53:13  <andythenorth> I need some steam engines too
06:53:17  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
06:53:17  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 50 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
06:53:25  <andythenorth> steam engines are the one thing I can't draw :P
06:53:54  <andythenorth> I have failed to draw any, but Dan does 10 before lunchtime
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06:58:51  <Pikka> :/
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09:06:32  <andythenorth> is github too big too fail? o_O
09:18:17  <Pikka> 2big2furious
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09:30:18  <SpComb> but why would github fail, they have so many users!
09:38:07  <andythenorth> I wonder how they could fail, other than (1) acquisition (2) catastrophic infra fail
09:39:37  <SpComb> well, obviously by failing to monetize their user base
09:40:09  <SpComb> I don't actually know if github is profitable, but investor money is not for serving the public good
09:41:47  <andythenorth> hmm
09:42:03  <andythenorth> I can't see projects like Bootstrap wanting to lose their 16k closed issues
09:43:02  <andythenorth> kubernetes is there too, and ansible
09:43:07  <SpComb> github was over 66m$ in the negative in 2016
09:43:31  <andythenorth> let's see
09:47:18  <andythenorth> I guess my question is really 'why are people scared about openttd code being on github'
09:49:16  <andythenorth> the failure modes seem predictable and defensible
10:02:32  <SpComb> relying on free services is always a bit questionable, I'm assuming openttd doesn't pay github anything
10:10:09  <andythenorth> nope
10:19:27  <peter1138>
10:20:10  <peter1138> Which people are scared?
10:25:16  <andythenorth> $some
10:25:33  <andythenorth> I'm more anticipating the question for writing docs
10:25:38  <peter1138> Ah
10:25:40  <andythenorth> repo pfff
10:25:44  <andythenorth> repo is fine
10:26:03  <andythenorth> it's the tickets that could just disappear
10:26:13  <andythenorth> and PRs
10:26:36  <andythenorth> I just would bet against that actually happening
10:26:51  <peter1138> The link says that is possible.
10:27:08  <peter1138> (Possible to back up)
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10:28:03  <andythenorth> yes
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10:30:17  <LordAro> seems reasonable to back it up, but the source itself is perfectly safe
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10:50:32  <peter1138> Yes, far safer than SVN.
11:17:41  <andythenorth> 51 done, 123 to do
11:17:53  <andythenorth> such numbers :P
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11:32:41  <peter1138> How's NRT?
11:32:47  <andythenorth> needs rebased
11:32:53  <peter1138> Hmm.
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11:33:14  <andythenorth>
11:35:19  <andythenorth> if it gets done I'll have to make an NRT Road Hog
11:35:27  <andythenorth> and I'm painting trains right now so eh :P
11:35:31  <peter1138> I think I'm free tonight...
11:36:08  <andythenorth> Hogs it is then :P
12:12:59  <andythenorth> 3 trains per hour
12:13:08  <andythenorth> @calc 360 / 24
12:13:08  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 15
12:13:15  <andythenorth> hmm 15 days non-stop
12:13:22  <andythenorth> nope
12:13:24  <andythenorth> silly maths
12:13:31  <andythenorth> @calc 40 / 24
12:13:31  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.66666666667
12:13:42  <andythenorth> better
12:13:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: what hoppers? o-O
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12:28:03  <peter1138> Hmm, do we need one-click crash report uploading?
12:29:53  <andythenorth> didn't we have it once?
12:29:57  <andythenorth> and it got removed?
12:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc it got removed just because we didn't have the backend infrastructure for it
12:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if we decide to add it back in, we also need someone who weeds through them, sorts them into duplicates, and stuff
12:35:09  <andythenorth> AI :P
12:35:19  <andythenorth> hmm railcars
12:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: NoCrash?
12:36:16  <andythenorth> maybe :P
12:41:43  <andythenorth> bbl
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13:45:53  <supermop_work> yo
13:50:22  <peter1138> Hmm, I don't remember having that.
13:52:26  <peter1138> Infrastructure sharing, eh?
13:52:43  <peter1138> I remember subsidiaries too.
13:52:58  <peter1138> Be nice to have them.
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14:50:57  <Alberth> o/
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15:00:48  <andythenorth> o/
15:02:08  <andythenorth>
15:02:26  <andythenorth> ^ is that just because 1.8.0 bumped savegame version?
15:02:37  <andythenorth> so NRT fork now looks 'older' and therefore is loaded?
15:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that should usually result in "incompatible" error
15:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know what you're doing
15:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on what you change
15:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it might not be able to detect differences in map layout, and silently fail/do weird things
15:08:55  <andythenorth> I have NFI how a fork is supposed to be able to modify the saveload code in trunk eh?
15:09:11  <andythenorth> is there some executable code in the savegame that is run on load?
15:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you should not worry about it
15:09:32  <andythenorth> it seems insane
15:09:48  <andythenorth> literally program A is supposed to modify program B somehow? o_O
15:10:39  <Alberth> it's not compatible, so don't try to load saves of game A into game B
15:11:25  * andythenorth back to pixels
15:11:43  <Alberth> much saner :)
15:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> once i suggested to use "minor savegame version != 0" for patchpacks
15:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but that idea was not well received
15:12:16  <andythenorth> QoL issue?
15:12:40  <andythenorth> do we get much failure demand from players loading patchpack saves into trunk?
15:12:54  <Alberth> not that I am aware of
15:13:08  <Alberth> people generally only play the patchpack, as it has more features
15:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> well, like i said, usually it fails directly on load, but if it seems to work, people will then stumble over undebuggable errors later on
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15:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> on a separate note, we might need a big red warning message for people trying to load a crash.sav file
15:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine something like this: on loading a crash.sav, the user is prompted with a message that this is an emergency save file, which may contain corrupted data and it is advised to play from an earlier autosave instead
15:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> on loading a "secondary" savegame, i.e. a manual savegame made with the "loaded crash.sav" flag active, it shows the smae message, but with an option to disable this warning, and re-enable crash dump/save generation again
15:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> both these are logged in the game log
15:27:21  <Deep3D> Hello, is a Raspberry Pi OK for setting up a OpenTTD server for 2-3 users with a large map?
15:27:36  <supermop_work> what is 'large'
15:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Deep3D: OpenTTD is pretty CPU heavy, so i'd tend towards "no" for the "large" part
15:28:37  <Deep3D> Ok, not large as 4000x4000. Maybe 1024x1024?
15:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it depends heavily on your play style, number of trains, industries, whatever
15:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it may work at first and then slow down over time
15:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> as you build more stuff and more cargo gets transported
15:30:25  <Deep3D> I understand, then Ill prob not use pi :)
15:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, it's probably the safest if the slowest computer is the server
15:32:00  <andythenorth>
15:32:11  <andythenorth> no Wolf? o-O
15:32:23  <Deep3D> tnx
15:32:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if the server is slow, it will just make the game run slower. if one of the clients is slow, it will get kicked from the game and unable to play
15:36:25  <andythenorth> hmm
15:36:37  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE: flashing rear light on trains, with sprite layer
15:36:45  <andythenorth> should I? :P
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15:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bonus points for getting the wheel to stand upright again after it fell over?
15:39:14  <andythenorth> some kind of linear actuator?
15:39:18  <andythenorth> that pushes it up?
15:39:29  <andythenorth> or another moving mass ?
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15:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's essentially a "reaction wheel", so with enough power and picking the right spin direction, it should be able to stand up
15:41:28  <andythenorth> is 2 axes of rotation enough?
15:41:36  <andythenorth> I suppose rotating one of the axes moves the other
15:41:44  <andythenorth> so it's pretty variable
15:42:02  * andythenorth totally doesn't understand sprite layers
15:42:08  <andythenorth> time for nml docs
15:42:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, typically you'd have reaction wheels in a 3d-gyroscope-formation, to freely position the spin direction
15:43:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but if the wheel is laying flat, you can assume one direction is already known
15:43:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you should build one and try it :)
15:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the second direction would then be used to choose the lowest point of the wheel, to pick the angle that is easiest to overcome
15:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and the 3rd direction is then used to put the force in to stand up
15:44:50  <andythenorth> rise of the machines :P
15:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there's another key component here, applying the force as close to the pivot point as possible
15:46:24  <andythenorth> I suspect it might just slide, and not rock over
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15:46:40  <andythenorth> if the edges of the wheel were high-friction it would likely work
15:46:48  <andythenorth> a band of rubber
15:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so that might mean you optimally have 5 degrees of freedom
15:47:22  <andythenorth> presumably if there was a 3rd moving mass, one could lean the monowheel in curves? o_O
15:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly 4 suffices?
15:48:40  <supermop_work> it should have contrarotating flywheels
15:48:53  <andythenorth> monowheel
15:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "leaning" is how most real-world monowheels turn
15:49:00  <supermop_work> and vary the ratio of spin to steer
15:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> where the movable mass is the person sitting in them
15:49:39  <supermop_work> so that it can make faster/finer adjustments and always have wheels spinning, to prevent hamster wheeling
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16:54:38  <Wolf01> o/
16:56:52  <Alberth> o/
16:56:58  <Wolf01> TB: did you see the link I posted this morning?
16:57:43  <Wolf01> If not, it might be of your interest: <- troubleshooting docker ebook for free
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17:14:58  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: highlighting doesnt work if you dont use my name :)
17:15:24  <TrueBrain> and tnx :)
17:15:29  <Wolf01> I don't want to highlight you, bad things happened (usually to Xeryus) :P
17:16:10  <andythenorth> so I want to do something about all the issues that are wanted
17:16:13  <andythenorth> but never happening
17:16:18  <andythenorth> specifically a lot of them are newgrf
17:16:38  <TrueBrain> what do you have in mind?
17:16:50  <andythenorth> fuck knows :(
17:16:57  <andythenorth> I have been looking how Bootstrap handles issues
17:17:02  <andythenorth> mdo is pretty good, short but fair
17:17:03  <andythenorth>
17:17:16  <andythenorth>
17:17:26  <andythenorth>
17:17:51  <andythenorth> Bootstrap's "contributing" page is also not bad
17:18:31  <andythenorth> they only have 330 open issues
17:18:39  <andythenorth> and they are one of the biggest Github projects
17:18:47  <Wolf01> HA! -> "Please ask first before embarking on any significant pull request (e.g. implementing features, refactoring code, porting to a different language), otherwise you risk spending a lot of time working on something that the project's developers might not want to merge into the project."
17:19:07  <andythenorth> they have 16k close issues
17:19:11  <andythenorth> we have 6k
17:19:13  <TrueBrain> all in the same idea: not on the roadmap, in what-ever wording
17:19:20  <andythenorth> maybe we are suddenly one of the biggest Github projects :P
17:19:30  <Wolf01> We don't even have a roadmap!
17:19:38  <Wolf01> Also, dinner, long, BBL
17:19:40  <andythenorth> roadmaps suck
17:19:41  <andythenorth>
17:19:46  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah, that annoyed me; but I lacked other wording
17:19:56  <TrueBrain> but I saw a few good examples of how other projects deal with it
17:20:05  <TrueBrain> stuff like: we dont see this happening in the short future
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17:20:19  <andythenorth> 'contrary to goals'
17:20:21  <TrueBrain> and: tnx for the awesome idea, but this won't be part of the core
17:20:26  <andythenorth> 'not a current priority'
17:20:32  <TrueBrain> yup
17:20:38  <TrueBrain> basically, keep what fits in the next milestone
17:20:45  <andythenorth> Bootstrap did really well at insisting on being a framework
17:20:54  <andythenorth> I am a massive fan of their work
17:21:05  <andythenorth> most people only see the button style, and go 'meh bootstrap'
17:21:07  <andythenorth> but they are fools
17:21:22  <TrueBrain> PITTY THE FOOL
17:21:37  <andythenorth> also the idea of complete docs, compiled with the project
17:21:44  <andythenorth> and no fricking sphinx :P
17:21:50  <andythenorth> I stole that for newgrf
17:25:37  <andythenorth> can we delete some of the labels?
17:25:43  <TrueBrain> randomly, sure
17:25:47  <TrueBrain> but maybe you want to say which :D
17:25:48  <andythenorth> NewCargos isn't winning us much
17:26:00  <TrueBrain> all the uncoloured ones I dislike
17:26:16  <andythenorth> it's just too many
17:26:24  <andythenorth> too many = more labelled wrong
17:26:25  <TrueBrain> many is not an issue if they are helpful
17:26:39  <TrueBrain> so lets not remove them for removing them
17:26:42  <andythenorth> it is when trying to apply them
17:26:44  <TrueBrain> that is just creating work :D
17:26:55  <TrueBrain> I would suggest to never apply the non-coloured ones :D
17:27:15  <andythenorth> "Trams"
17:27:17  <TrueBrain> but keeping up with incoming bugs is easier than getting ride of the 359 :D
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17:27:29  <TrueBrain> none use Trams anymore
17:27:35  <TrueBrain> so yeah, remove it if it bothers you
17:27:42  <andythenorth> can I just break some eggs?
17:27:47  <TrueBrain> you OCD-high-person :)
17:27:51  <TrueBrain> depends on the eggs :)
17:28:05  <andythenorth> we have 2 fricking pages of labels
17:28:18  <andythenorth> one of them is "Squirrel"
17:28:19  <TrueBrain> yes;seriously, dont worry about the labels
17:28:22  <TrueBrain> dont create work
17:28:23  <andythenorth> but we also have "Script"
17:28:30  <TrueBrain> lets first deal with what is important .. 359 bug tickets
17:28:41  <andythenorth> I have no way of clustering them though :P
17:28:42  <TrueBrain> if you have your open tickets under control
17:28:45  <TrueBrain> it is easier to categorize them
17:28:55  <andythenorth> you can see I gave up with Flyspray categories as they were mostly crap :)
17:28:57  <TrueBrain> just randomly removing labels is not really helping :)
17:29:05  <TrueBrain> yeah ... so you added in the topic ....
17:29:09  <TrueBrain> that really .. changed stuff?!
17:29:11  <TrueBrain> :P
17:29:20  <andythenorth> it was fliterable by search
17:29:29  <TrueBrain> fair enough
17:29:34  <TrueBrain> also what labels are good for btw :)
17:29:35  <andythenorth> I didn't want to break the carefully applied category system
17:29:46  <andythenorth> someone obviously designed it for a reason
17:29:50  <TrueBrain> so for today I want to crawl through crash reports
17:29:55  <andythenorth> ok
17:30:02  <TrueBrain> 48 when I search for crash
17:30:26  <andythenorth> same
17:30:52  <andythenorth> first is 6691
17:31:17  <andythenorth> hmm this needs someone !andythenorth
17:31:26  <andythenorth> 'crash' just makes me go 'wah'
17:31:38  <TrueBrain> ghehe
17:31:49  <frosch123> do we care about new-line at end-of-file?
17:31:52  <TrueBrain> so give me an hour to look them through :) You maybe can look at NewGRF stuff?
17:31:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: please, always do
17:31:58  <TrueBrain> please please please
17:32:03  <TrueBrain> any sane editor fixes it for you
17:32:07  <TrueBrain> git yells at you
17:32:10  <TrueBrain> github does too :)
17:32:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: tell glx :p
17:32:20  <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you add a line if there is no end-of-line, you have 2 changed lines
17:32:22  <TrueBrain> which is .... WEIRD
17:32:25  <andythenorth> I am looking at OS X crashes
17:32:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, should commit-checker check that?
17:32:52  <TrueBrain> basically the whole world switched to: ADD NEWLINE! (file-bytes[-1] == '\n')
17:32:54  <TrueBrain> :D
17:32:57  <TrueBrain> please? :D:D
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17:33:09  <glx> yes add the check
17:33:16  <glx> to be on the safe side
17:36:09  <TrueBrain> 7 year old bug ticket ... close :D
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17:36:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I agree with your OSX statement; just we also need to be sure we are compatible with n-2 in that case :D
17:37:12  <andythenorth> I am generally n-1 because n is usually a shitshow of bugs
17:37:18  <andythenorth> but n-2, meh
17:37:31  <andythenorth> anyway I close that one
17:37:43  <TrueBrain> I was about to say :P
17:38:30  <andythenorth> probably closing
17:39:38  <TrueBrain> go for it
17:39:45  <TrueBrain> found a 5 year old LordAro patch :P
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17:40:15  <TrueBrain> tnx Deep3D, everything was way too flat for me taste
17:40:28  <andythenorth> I test
17:42:41  <TrueBrain> "suggest closing it" *presses close button*
17:43:15  <TrueBrain> I keep reading the same tickets ... going to rename the 'bug' label too, so I know which tickets still needs looking at ..
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17:45:50  <andythenorth> yeah that was bugging me
17:46:08  <andythenorth> I search by different label and get very overlapping results
17:47:01  <TrueBrain> so any ticket with "from Flyspray" label of some form/kind
17:47:05  <TrueBrain> still needs attention :)
17:51:44  <Deep3D> TrueBrain, hehe :D
17:58:23  <andythenorth> well
17:58:46  <andythenorth> Oh I should put Mac OS version
18:00:28  <andythenorth> no idea if that patch is insane
18:00:38  <andythenorth> if it's just dropping lots of game logic, then yeah, it could be faster :P
18:00:57  <TrueBrain> the patch feels a bit wonky .. but that is for someone to find out :)
18:01:05  <TrueBrain> at least it highlight they are on the right track
18:04:04  <Rubidium> technically what it does not drawing all the game ticks, so yeah... obviously it's faster... but if you use -v null it's even faster
18:04:22  <TrueBrain> ha; lol
18:04:23  <Rubidium> it doesn't really make the game itself faster
18:04:28  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is not the idea of Fast Forward :D
18:04:44  <TrueBrain> so comment that on GitHub please :)
18:04:47  <andythenorth> more ICU?
18:04:58  <Rubidium> so fast forwarding a pretty filled map won't get a big improvement
18:05:04  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I dont think so .. hence the 'triage'
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18:15:54  <TrueBrain> lot of crashes need triage ..
18:19:31  <TrueBrain> lot of Korean users btw
18:21:49  <frosch123>
18:22:17  <frosch123> i had to install a hexeditor to create the testcase
18:22:28  <frosch123> i did not figure out how to do it with a regualr editor :p
18:22:30  <andythenorth> 351 issues open :P
18:22:42  <TrueBrain> lol @ frosch123 :D
18:22:45  <TrueBrain> glx is just special :D
18:24:16  <LordAro> frosch123: :D
18:25:43  <LordAro> TrueBrain: ah, 5722?
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18:25:59  <TrueBrain> dunno, sent you a poke via GitHub :P
18:26:23  <LordAro> yup
18:26:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: okay, done with everything with 'crash' in it
18:26:54  <TrueBrain> 19 triage tickets now
18:32:09  <TrueBrain> good thing about no notifications for closing tickets to the owners ... less complaining :P
18:32:14  <TrueBrain> 350!
18:32:18  <peter1138> be nice if that opengl blitter was working
18:32:26  <peter1138> with almost free palette animation
18:32:30  <TrueBrain> didnt you say that ... 10 years ago?!
18:32:34  <peter1138> not mine
18:33:01  <andythenorth> 350 :)
18:33:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: is #6661 fixable at all?
18:33:40  <TrueBrain> or is it fixed in other grfs?
18:34:27  <andythenorth> hmm
18:36:25  <TrueBrain> frosch123 / LordAro: is #6649 a good idea?
18:36:47  <TrueBrain> (and does it work on our current targets? Dunno what version it needs etc)
18:38:56  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the goal is welcome, but it is only for after the farm is done, and also the patches do not comply to coding style
18:39:08  <TrueBrain> yeah, so compilers need an update
18:39:10  <TrueBrain> k k
18:40:12  <LordAro> what frosch123 said
18:40:22  <LordAro> although compilers don't need updating any further
18:40:40  <LordAro> (on jenkinsfarm)
18:40:54  <frosch123> also i would use c++11 loop style instead of replacing Length() with size()
18:40:57  <TrueBrain> Docker farm is not done yet LordAro :)
18:41:00  <TrueBrain> no OSX and Windows :)
18:41:18  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i didn't say it was done ;)
18:41:19  <TrueBrain> frosch123: maybe you could write something up on the wiki about c++11 coding style etc?
18:41:32  <TrueBrain> LordAro: no, but you made it more confusing :)
18:42:46  <frosch123> yes, but other stuff first :)
18:43:28  <TrueBrain> pushed new commiter-checker to CI
18:43:30  <LordAro> gah, i created a branch named "origin/master"
18:44:57  <peter1138> Re #559, when are we adding SSL? ;p
18:45:21  <TrueBrain> you mean 599?
18:45:27  <peter1138> Yes, thanks.
18:45:36  <TrueBrain> that issue is more an issue than I would like to admit
18:45:42  <TrueBrain> do we md5 passwords?
18:46:54  <TrueBrain> nope
18:46:57  <TrueBrain> okay, this really needs attention
18:47:21  <peter1138> There is password hashing. But it's salted MD5 which is not really very good these days.
18:47:43  <TrueBrain> frosch123: your change works good; glx' patch is now denied :)
18:47:51  <peter1138> Even so, without a secure transport layer, it's sniffable.
18:47:55  <TrueBrain> I see passwords over the wire as plain text?
18:48:02  <peter1138> Over the wire, yes.
18:48:13  <peter1138> If you hash it client side, then you need it unhashed on the server.
18:48:14  <TrueBrain> euh .. TLS is not a requirement to keep passwords safe
18:48:26  <TrueBrain> there are plenty of solutions which solve that, fully secure
18:48:40  <TrueBrain> so I doubt adding TLS is a good solution for us currently
18:48:42  <peter1138> It pretty much is. All the digest schemes require the password to be in plaintext on the server side.
18:48:55  <TrueBrain> huh?
18:49:02  <TrueBrain> we control the server and client code of the network
18:49:27  <peter1138> Yes?
18:49:35  <LordAro> sounds like TMWFTLB to me
18:49:41  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you missed a line Rubidium said a bit later, which also might be relevant
18:49:49  <TrueBrain> LordAro: which part?
18:49:53  <TrueBrain> LordAro: bit of a random comment :D
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18:50:05  <LordAro> those who want their ottd company passwords to be "secure" need to reevaluate their priorities
18:50:06  <TrueBrain> like you burst in a room and yell: TMWFTLB :D
18:50:15  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but there you are wrong; very wrong even
18:50:21  <TrueBrain> people dont understand this part of the IT world
18:50:27  <peter1138> We could remove the company password hashing, and then we'd be able to support secure passwords. Either or.
18:50:31  <TrueBrain> they simply "assume they can fill in their google password"
18:50:54  <TrueBrain> LordAro: in these modern days, you are kinda obligated to protect users from this sillyness
18:51:00  <TrueBrain> especially as it goes over the wire
18:51:23  <LordAro> true, i hadn't considered that
18:51:32  <TrueBrain> it really is really bad we still do that
18:51:40  <peter1138> Didn't we once have thoughts about implementing a centralised authentication system. User logs in to website, tokens authenticate user to server. etc.
18:51:56  <peter1138> The thought didn't get very far because centralised.
18:52:15  <LordAro> mm, any solution needs to work in the event all of disappears
18:52:40  <peter1138> Anyway, OpenSSL isn't *too* hard.
18:53:02  <peter1138> Not that I'm volunteering of course :D
18:53:03  <LordAro> extra dependency though
18:53:09  <peter1138> Yes, but secure.
18:53:14  <TrueBrain> owh, I was wrongly informed .. I should look in sources myself ffs
18:53:18  <TrueBrain> passwords are not sent plaintext
18:53:22  <TrueBrain> so it is a bit less terrible
18:53:53  <TrueBrain> they are even salted, so no rainbows .. possibly unicorns
18:54:53  <TrueBrain> adding TLS to solve this issue is bringing a gun to a pillow fight. Adding TLS might be a nice gimmic, but lets please not overdo solutions
18:55:49  <TrueBrain> wow, there is more thought in this hash than I expeted
18:55:52  <TrueBrain> who wrote this ..
18:56:15  <TrueBrain> kudos to Rubidium :)
18:56:35  <TrueBrain> wait, no, he just moved the code
18:57:30  <peter1138> Passwords are hashed client side.
18:57:50  <peter1138> This means it's still snoopable, but at least it's not going to be somebody's clear text google password.
18:58:24  <peter1138> Hmm, but there is _password_game_seed
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18:58:54  <TrueBrain> okay, that reduces priority of that part drasticly
18:59:35  <peter1138> Hmm, the seed is the map generation seed, so that part is fixed.
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19:00:18  <peter1138> That means you can snoop the hashed password, and use it to join the current server + map combo.
19:00:33  <TrueBrain> yes; that is not an issue
19:00:47  <TrueBrain> if you want to solve that, simply add a replay-id
19:00:49  <peter1138> Well, just map I suppose, if two servers happened to be running the same game.
19:01:01  <glx> just use 2FA ;)
19:01:20  <peter1138> :p
19:01:25  <TrueBrain> peter1138: serverids are unique
19:01:35  <TrueBrain> well, advertised servers
19:01:43  <TrueBrain> what is the value for LAN servers .. hmm
19:01:49  <peter1138> Ah, network_id as well. so yes, current server + map combo.
19:01:50  <TrueBrain> anyway, we are not protecting against replay
19:01:57  <TrueBrain> we want to keep the password safe
19:02:20  <frosch123> at some point we stored the default password as plaintext in openttd.cfg
19:02:25  <frosch123> not sure whether that is still the case
19:02:38  <TrueBrain> lol
19:02:41  <peter1138> still, salted md5 is not very secure ;)
19:02:44  <TrueBrain> well, 599 is about storing the passwords on save etc
19:02:49  <peter1138> but yeah, better than md5.
19:02:59  <TrueBrain> peter1138: currently I see no attack vector
19:03:03  <TrueBrain> I will check at work, but ..
19:03:12  <TrueBrain> bruteforce is the only way
19:03:23  <peter1138> Yes.
19:03:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: so if we solve 599, we can also fix that, if that is still the case :D
19:03:40  <TrueBrain> but storing passwords needs a bit more love
19:04:32  <frosch123> anyway, is it rude to force-push to branches in PR? it seems to delete all the commented code from the PR
19:04:38  <glx> I like the time it takes to check a PR not touching the source code ;)
19:04:44  <peter1138> TrueBrain, MD5 bruteforcing is easy these days, that's the thing.
19:04:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is why I like squashing! :P
19:05:10  <glx> and MSVC is not even in the check loop :)
19:05:36  <peter1138> GPUs can do billions of MD5 hashes every second.
19:05:58  <peter1138> But yeah, it's not plaintext, so not urgently a problem.
19:06:30  <glx> and it's just a password without any other info
19:06:33  <peter1138> Would be nice to switch to bcrypt or something if we do start saving them.
19:07:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: with the requirement "must be up-to-date" that does not help either
19:08:04  <TrueBrain> frosch123: nope
19:08:11  <frosch123> i was wondering whether one can attach a different branch to the same pr
19:08:17  <TrueBrain> not that I know
19:08:23  <LordAro> frosch123: not too rude, really
19:08:27  <LordAro> also, no
19:08:43  <glx> I just used the easy way for my PR, added a commit
19:08:43  <TrueBrain> glx: it rarely is "just a password"
19:08:46  <LordAro> "must be up to date" is a bit of a silly rule - if it won't merge, GH will tell you
19:09:18  <TrueBrain> its not silly from a CI point-of-view
19:09:20  <frosch123> <- glx: i removed the first declaration of "version"
19:09:25  <TrueBrain> this somewhat guarantees master is always correct
19:09:28  <glx> TrueBrain: I mean in openttd case, nothing else is stored in relation to the player
19:09:38  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i don't follow
19:09:38  <TrueBrain> if you let that go a bit, you don't need it; squash and rebase (both merge methods) put it on top anyway
19:09:51  <TrueBrain> glx: it can be enough to login to someones gmail, sadly
19:10:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: currently, your patch needs to be on top of the branch
19:10:20  <TrueBrain> so the CI kicks in
19:10:22  <TrueBrain> says: this works
19:10:26  <TrueBrain> if you merge that, master works
19:10:28  <TrueBrain> no questions
19:10:32  <TrueBrain> as .. that was already validated
19:10:46  <TrueBrain> if you allow PRs that are not up-to-date, but mergable
19:10:49  <TrueBrain> it can fail the CI
19:10:55  <LordAro> in what situations would a branch that isn't "on top" result in broken stuff?
19:11:11  <TrueBrain> you make a PR where you remove a global
19:11:18  <TrueBrain> I make a PR where I make a new use of that same global
19:11:19  <TrueBrain> you merge
19:11:22  <TrueBrain> my PR works fine
19:11:25  <TrueBrain> just not when merged
19:11:29  <TrueBrain> this ia very common
19:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> md5 is not a cryptographically safe operation
19:11:46  <LordAro> hmm, i guess
19:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> should not use anything below sha256
19:11:56  <TrueBrain> LordAro: check projects that allow non-up-to-date
19:12:00  <TrueBrain> every N commits master breaks
19:12:02  <TrueBrain> and they fix it
19:12:04  <TrueBrain> not a big issue
19:12:07  <glx> hmm where can I see what is wrong in the commit checker ?
19:12:09  <TrueBrain> but it does happen more often than you would expect
19:12:21  <TrueBrain> glx: click details
19:12:24  <TrueBrain> then the line above what fails
19:12:29  <TrueBrain> (so not the 'wait', but the 'log')
19:13:09  <TrueBrain> glx: frosch123 made his scripts that it doesnt check the full result, but every commit on its own
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19:13:15  <TrueBrain> (he assumes you will be rebasing)
19:13:22  <TrueBrain> so in your case, your first commit still doesnt have that newline
19:13:34  <TrueBrain> we are a bit split between methods of working with GitHub currently :D
19:13:36  <glx> yes but it's fixed by the next one
19:13:48  <TrueBrain> yes; like I just said, the checker checks every commit
19:13:52  <TrueBrain> not the collection of the commits
19:14:14  <TrueBrain> if you assume a PR is going to be rebased, that is a proper assumption
19:14:21  <TrueBrain> if you assume a PR is going to be squashed, it is not
19:14:31  <TrueBrain> no way of knowing beforehand
19:14:54  <frosch123> can we report different check states to GH? "good for rebase" and "good for squash"?
19:14:55  <TrueBrain> or we must allow chains of which a few break master, but not the final result :)
19:15:28  <TrueBrain> not in a fail-proof way
19:15:34  <TrueBrain> you cannot disable one of the two methods
19:15:36  <TrueBrain> as far as I know
19:15:47  <TrueBrain> the status simply says: fail, error, success, pending
19:16:11  <frosch123> jenkins uses to have "unstable" as third result
19:16:30  <TrueBrain> we talk about GitHub here :)
19:16:31  <glx> anyway TV time for me
19:16:42  <TrueBrain> I can make Jenkins do what ever the fuck I want :P
19:16:50  <TrueBrain> it is GitHub that locks down workflows :(
19:17:11  <TrueBrain> (it is why projects work with bots; because they want their own workflow :D)
19:17:39  <TrueBrain> as we can make Jenkins leave behind labels
19:18:08  <TrueBrain> so in theory we can make something like: CI kicks in, leaves label: squashable / FFable
19:18:16  <TrueBrain> if PR is approved, bot automerges and pushes to master
19:19:02  <TrueBrain> but I really wonder if force pushing is something that works long-term on github :(
19:20:13  <frosch123> we reserved a gitlab account :)
19:20:31  <TrueBrain> different name, different issues; but issues you will have :)
19:21:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: but for a short-term solution: why not validate the diff based on the total work
19:21:17  <TrueBrain> and messages per commit
19:21:27  <TrueBrain> does it matter if a few commits on master don't validate?
19:21:35  <TrueBrain> we also don't check CI on them if they are pushed in a single push
19:21:40  <TrueBrain> (so they might fail building)
19:21:45  <andythenorth> can we sack this?
19:21:52  <andythenorth> [see last comment]
19:22:28  <TrueBrain> go for it
19:22:33  <TrueBrain> in general, close tickets with more than 1 question tbfh :P
19:23:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: because if you let go of the check-per-commit, the up-to-date can also be let go; master will break from time to time, but we just have to fix it up then :)
19:23:43  <TrueBrain> (no clue if it works; just suggesting :D)
19:24:00  <supermop_work> did anyone look at that thing few weeks ago in forums about quadratic pax generation fix?
19:24:07  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we also cannot check messages then
19:24:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: messages should always comply tbh :P
19:24:34  <TrueBrain> a force push for that sounds reasonable
19:24:40  <TrueBrain> and a kick in the head for not installing the pre-commit :D
19:25:26  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I closed #599 :(
19:25:27  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: can we have a script comment on every open FS issue, linking it to github?
19:25:28  <TrueBrain> I feel sad
19:25:37  <andythenorth> I worry about people like Michael and George
19:25:40  <andythenorth> who have many many issues
19:25:41  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think I will do that this weekend for every open ticket
19:25:45  <andythenorth> and won't know about github
19:25:47  <andythenorth> ok cool
19:25:53  <TrueBrain> just a link to GitHub
19:25:54  <andythenorth> we have no decent announcement yet :P
19:26:00  <andythenorth> and I haven't got inspired to write a proper one
19:26:01  <TrueBrain> just ... 400 times copy/pastnig/changing
19:26:04  <TrueBrain> not looking forward to that :P
19:26:13  <TrueBrain> before weekends end?
19:26:27  <andythenorth> bot? :P
19:26:39  <supermop_work> also comment on forums "i did free work at in place of some workers who were on strike, why are the striking workers upset with me?"
19:26:41  <TrueBrain> I might script it .. but that might be more effort :)
19:27:06  <TrueBrain> supermop_work: because that person is a dick? :)
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19:27:24  <supermop_work> i tried to be more diplomatic
19:27:54  <andythenorth> supermop_work: is there some 'off-topic' section? :P
19:27:57  <andythenorth> or is that in newgrf?
19:28:04  <supermop_work> off topic
19:28:49  <andythenorth> I found it
19:29:00  <andythenorth> we have some forum posters who live in a different reality to me
19:29:15  <andythenorth> I don't know who is neuro-non-typical
19:29:19  <andythenorth> maybe it's me
19:30:27  <peter1138> Who what now?
19:31:14  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: what is the official roadmap for newgrf?
19:31:42  <andythenorth> [yes | no | list of issues]
19:32:07  <peter1138> NRT!
19:32:17  <andythenorth> ok
19:32:25  <frosch123> what roadmap?
19:32:33  <andythenorth> so 'yes'
19:32:52  <peter1138> Well no.
19:33:06  <andythenorth> the official roadmap is 'what?'
19:33:12  <peter1138> Hmm, I had a patch to allow non-combining rail types.
19:33:31  <peter1138> Somebody wanted it, so I made it, but never had a build for them to test.
19:33:33  <supermop_work> not roadtypesmap
19:33:45  <andythenorth> there are 24 newgrf issues, most of which can be sacked imho
19:34:19  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: closed #5140
19:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 12 from george for missing variables and 11 from snail for missing variables?
19:34:32  <andythenorth> the majority of newgrf issues are problems with the livery spec
19:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and 1 random one who doesn't have any clue?
19:34:41  <andythenorth> many things are missing or broken in the livery spec
19:35:05  <andythenorth>
19:35:28  <orudge> TrueBrain: have left a comment on - not sure exactly what the workflow we're wanting to use here is :)
19:36:14  <andythenorth> closed 1
19:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd lean towards "deprecate this and reimplement it in a sane way"
19:36:30  <TrueBrain> orudge: yeah .. I fucked thatone up :D Just had to press the button
19:36:38  <TrueBrain> removing my merge and for ce pushing was the correct solution
19:36:59  <TrueBrain> let me check why CI fails .. that is weird
19:37:14  <orudge> There are no actual code changes of course
19:37:16  <orudge> maybe that confuses it :D
19:37:28  <TrueBrain> it says it cannot find the commit
19:37:47  <andythenorth> is this a genuine quality issue?
19:37:51  <andythenorth> or "don't do that"
19:38:09  <TrueBrain> I already marked it as bug andythenorth
19:38:12  <orudge> TrueBrain: it looks like it's trying to pull from OpenTTD/OpenTTD.git
19:38:16  <orudge> rather than orudge/OpenTTD.git
19:38:19  <TrueBrain> (look at the labels andythenorth! :P)
19:38:25  <TrueBrain> orudge: no, that is correct
19:38:30  <orudge> ah
19:38:33  <orudge> is it then patching them in?
19:38:34  <TrueBrain> there is a ref in there pointing to the right code
19:38:37  <orudge> OK
19:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: every crash should be treated as "insert code to prevent this, if possible"
19:38:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: with any api i prefer "write a spec, let it rest for a few weeks/months, straighten it, repeat until good"
19:39:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ok, quality issue then
19:39:18  <TrueBrain> orudge: this really is odd now :D
19:39:49  <frosch123> must "i need a var" requests are stupid, because authors tend to say what should be done, not what they need
19:39:54  <frosch123> *most
19:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this sounds like a "thread working on unclean data" issue
19:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: with 5588 i think they stated pretty clearly what they want. hide an entry from the refit list so existing vehicles can use it but no new ones
19:41:25  <TrueBrain> orudge: GitHub reports the PR is not there .... lol .....
19:41:38  <orudge> TrueBrain: I guess because the commit was rebased
19:41:44  <TrueBrain> shouldnt matter
19:41:47  <TrueBrain> git doesnt care about these things
19:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: problem is the existing spec has both things combined, and due to the strings having to be consecutive is not flexible enough to be extended
19:42:59  <andythenorth> problem is that subtypes are stupid
19:43:05  <andythenorth> so why do any more work on them?
19:43:27  <peter1138> Remove it completely?
19:43:34  <andythenorth> imagine the drama
19:43:37  <peter1138> :D
19:43:44  <andythenorth> much as I like deleting
19:43:50  <TrueBrain> ah, orudge, think I got it
19:43:51  <andythenorth> "you have killed all our favourite sets"
19:43:56  <TrueBrain> somehow GitHub didn't sync your branch
19:44:03  <TrueBrain> I really should not have pushed that button
19:44:06  <orudge> Heh
19:44:09  <TrueBrain> orudge: you did a 'git push -f' right?
19:44:13  <orudge> Yep
19:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the first thing i learned in compiler construction class: "you don't question the specs. you implement them to the letter"
19:44:33  <TrueBrain> the PR ref still shows my merge
19:44:46  <TrueBrain> orudge: lets close the PR and create a new one
19:44:48  <orudge> I can close it and create a new one if ... heh
19:44:51  <TrueBrain> dont feel like spending too much time on this :D
19:44:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that assumes a spec
19:44:58  <TrueBrain> orudge: great minds think alike :)
19:45:11  <andythenorth> ok let's close a bunch more tickets, and see what happens
19:45:16  <andythenorth> worst is, re-open
19:47:32  <orudge> TrueBrain: <-- quick, pull it before it breaks again ;)
19:47:43  <orudge> or squash and merge perhaps if preferred
19:47:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- if this is for "GRFv9", then why go through the lengths of making it an extended byte, and not a word?
19:47:56  <TrueBrain> orudge: lol .. seems the PR was not the issue
19:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "extended byte" is for situations where you want to do the least disturbance possible for existing GRFs
19:48:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you bump GRF-version, that seems a dismissible goal
19:49:02  <TrueBrain> now the PR really is correct ...
19:49:14  <TrueBrain> ah .. I was hitting GitHub caches
19:49:16  <TrueBrain> nevermind :D
19:49:19  <TrueBrain> lalalala
19:49:21  <TrueBrain> nothing happened
19:49:40  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's also for consistency
19:49:49  <andythenorth> railtype stuff again
19:49:52  <andythenorth> and
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19:50:02  <frosch123> and for limiting work for updating stuff
19:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe GRFv9 should get rid of "extended byte" and replace all of them with word?
19:50:54  <andythenorth> peter1138: also you had a patch for that
19:51:48  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds stupid, since the next thing would readd them :p
19:52:05  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: #5695 LIES LIES LIES
19:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, not remove remove, but replace all existing uses?
19:52:35  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: such lol
19:52:47  <frosch123> still only causes noise without improving stuff
19:52:53  <andythenorth> nearly at 340
19:53:06  <TrueBrain> 300 as goal for the end of the weekend :)
19:53:11  <TrueBrain> or no more "from Flyspray" labels
19:53:18  <frosch123> i think grfv8 did not change anything on a binary level, only on semantical level
19:53:33  <frosch123> changin stuff on binary level breaks all tools
19:53:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause had a patch for this
19:53:51  <andythenorth> still want it open? o_O
19:54:07  <andythenorth> can it be a PR?
19:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't comment on how finished that was
19:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the comments sound like there were a bunch of open philosophy questions
19:55:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: would BGT get L5? o_O
19:55:25  <TrueBrain> I guess andythenorth is asking: do you want to make a PR out of it and see it through, or shall we close it? :)
19:55:32  <andythenorth> what TrueBrain said
19:55:41  <andythenorth> PR, or move on
19:55:43  <andythenorth> all of us :)
19:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have to dig a little deeper to decide that
19:56:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: see, prime example for a crap task, "expose L5"
19:56:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: I close it?
19:56:31  <andythenorth> pikka won't be offended
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19:56:47  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: closed issues about musicsets and blabla
19:56:51  <frosch123> anyway, roads do not have this problem
19:57:20  <andythenorth> ok 337 issues
19:57:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: what is the relation betwen 5132 and 5487?
19:57:57  <andythenorth> oops, that's because I pasted a transcript
19:58:03  <andythenorth> GH detected the link
19:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe 5132 should rather be a railtype property that switches the layout?
19:58:21  <frosch123> i see :)
19:58:23  <andythenorth> I clean it
19:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that would avoid it becoming a variable with all the performance nightmares
19:59:06  <andythenorth> are railtypes on a roadmap?
19:59:11  <andythenorth> 'a' not 'the'
19:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have a list of N sprites with individual rails, or M sprites with combined junctions
19:59:24  <TrueBrain> you keep asking for something that doesnt exist :P
19:59:36  <andythenorth> my question is carefullly worded
19:59:44  <andythenorth> to produce the answer 'no'
20:00:23  <andythenorth> we don't need much more control over railtypes, it's barely seen
20:00:23  <TrueBrain> 337!
20:00:44  <andythenorth> wrong
20:00:45  <andythenorth> 335
20:00:51  <andythenorth> !337
20:01:02  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I *do* have a patch for that...
20:01:39  <peter1138> (Yeah, 5 years ago)
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20:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, that will only help with layering the ballast/rails properly, and not allow anything like smoother curves or stuff
20:03:51  <TrueBrain> 333!
20:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 333!
20:04:02  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
20:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> damn :p
20:04:38  <andythenorth> I want to TMWFTLB this
20:04:43  <andythenorth> but actually I dunno
20:04:55  <andythenorth> we allow many other kinds of fine-grained cost
20:05:20  <andythenorth> but doesn't it require a huge mapping?
20:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like much work
20:05:28  <TrueBrain> it sounds really nice to have that andythenorth
20:05:32  <andythenorth> but it needs to know all known railtypes
20:05:34  <andythenorth> in all grfs
20:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it must be a callback
20:05:44  <andythenorth> what is cost of MGLV -> ELRL?
20:05:44  <TrueBrain> accept it for now?
20:05:49  <LordAro> what's the shortcut to crash ottd?
20:05:51  <andythenorth> or MTRO -> ELRL
20:05:57  <andythenorth> LordAro: reload one of my grfs :P
20:05:58  <peter1138> alt-f4
20:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that gets the new railtype as index to the RTT in var10 or something
20:06:01  <LordAro> < andythenorth> something about grfs
20:06:07  <TrueBrain> LordAro: CTRL+0?
20:06:10  <TrueBrain> if that wasnt removed
20:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and returns the cost
20:06:30  <andythenorth> but it's not a cost, it's a differential
20:06:35  <andythenorth> seems insane to me
20:06:47  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i should probably check if it compiles first
20:06:48  <andythenorth> as bad as the vehicle refit cost FAIL
20:07:01  <TrueBrain> GitHub doesnt always store my label changes .. that is annoying
20:07:06  <andythenorth> it does, but you have to wait
20:07:11  <andythenorth> like...seconds :P
20:07:16  <andythenorth> or so I found, YMMV
20:07:31  <andythenorth> "change label, close tab" fails a lot
20:07:55  <andythenorth> I love how async is used to make it 'realtime'
20:07:58  <andythenorth> but it's not
20:07:58  <frosch123> LordAro: killall -6 openttd
20:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the callback would return the total conversion cost, replacing the default "remove and rebuild" calculation completely
20:08:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: put a spec on the issue? o_O
20:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and the callback author can decide what to do with unknown railtypes
20:08:48  <TrueBrain> LordAro: a pull request for you! :) (more issues with realpath)
20:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "callback failed" will revert to the original calculation
20:09:00  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i just saw
20:09:06  <LordAro> apparently realpath was a real bad idea
20:09:11  <TrueBrain> and our first non-us PR! :D
20:09:17  <TrueBrain> I am really surprised by that tbh ..
20:09:17  <peter1138> Ah, andythenorth already closed the one I have a patch for...
20:09:20  <TrueBrain> but his solution is nice LordAro :)
20:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i can't because i don't have a github account :p
20:09:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is solvable
20:09:35  <TrueBrain> peter1138: if we keep issues open you have a patch for, we never close anything :(
20:09:36  <andythenorth> even I have one
20:09:41  <andythenorth> and I don't even use email :P
20:09:46  <LordAro> TrueBrain: shame it failed the check :p
20:10:07  <andythenorth> want me to try compiling with it?
20:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of email, how should i bother changing my email on the account?
20:10:45  <peter1138> < still applies...
20:11:09  <peter1138> But I don't know if it works, becuase I'm not an artiste.
20:11:36  <andythenorth> need a pikka
20:11:52  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not sure anything in config.lib has an bash specific stuff
20:11:56  <LordAro> not sure if we want to break that...
20:12:13  <LordAro> ( ${1#./} is a bashism)
20:12:23  <TrueBrain> ah, yes
20:12:28  <TrueBrain> *shrug*
20:12:31  <TrueBrain> cmake!
20:12:40  <LordAro> blurgh
20:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so doesn't actually allow me to change my email :p
20:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "This page is currently incomplete, but it will be finished in the very near feature."
20:13:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: already 72 things classified as "real" bug .. oef :P
20:13:51  <TrueBrain> 200 is going to be hard
20:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence has been there for what? 5 years? :p
20:14:11  <TrueBrain> 11 years
20:14:16  <TrueBrain> I have 3 emails about it
20:14:17  <andythenorth> oef
20:14:25  <TrueBrain> (tells you how often people want to ...)
20:14:30  <andythenorth> yeah the website needs work
20:14:33  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: email info@ with your request
20:14:33  <peter1138> cmake smells. I dislike it.
20:14:34  <andythenorth> but first...github :)
20:14:45  <andythenorth> peter1138: you could make this untrue? o_O
20:14:49  <TrueBrain> gratz orudge! :D
20:15:04  <orudge> TrueBrain: Hurrah, it worked ;)
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20:15:11  <andythenorth> 331
20:15:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so how was the expeience with "update branch"?
20:15:58  <TrueBrain> VERY BAD
20:16:02  <TrueBrain> it creates a merge commit
20:16:08  <TrueBrain> which commit-checker denies
20:16:13  <TrueBrain> and things go wrong real quick from there :D
20:16:22  <TrueBrain> I was hoping it rebased .. but  no
20:16:39  <frosch123> apparently 6702 is not auto-rebaseable :)
20:16:45  <andythenorth> this one looks like a legit quality issue
20:16:46  <andythenorth> BUT
20:16:53  <andythenorth> forums can't agree on correct outcome
20:16:53  <andythenorth> so eh
20:17:34  <peter1138> You close a ticket then give me a link? o_O
20:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'd assume to that 3 emails is added another few who tried but didn't bother mailing and just gave up
20:18:25  <TrueBrain> tnx LordAro; nice work :)
20:18:48  <Wolf01> andythenorth: easy, all engines play the sound
20:18:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 6 years and no consensus? Sounds like a closed issue to me :)
20:19:07  <andythenorth> well there was a consensus for option 4
20:19:13  <andythenorth> but then it got derailed as usual in forums
20:19:20  <andythenorth> so I close
20:19:44  <TrueBrain> that makes 330; good enough for today :)
20:19:51  <TrueBrain> bit worries about the amount of real bugs :)
20:19:57  <TrueBrain> well, 23 still in triage
20:20:03  <TrueBrain> so it might be not that bad :)
20:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: mail sent
20:20:25  <andythenorth> we can get to 329
20:20:25  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I hope someone will pick it up soon for you :)
20:20:32  <TrueBrain> not sure who of the readers of info@ can
20:20:33  <andythenorth> I'm sure this is just bolllocks :)
20:20:58  <TrueBrain> I trust your opinion about GRFs :)
20:21:10  <frosch123> hmm, i don't get it
20:21:35  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: seriously, I wouldn't :P
20:21:35  <frosch123> what issue does gh have with 6702?
20:21:42  <TrueBrain> it is not up-to-date
20:21:44  <andythenorth> I am too close to my own grfs
20:21:47  <TrueBrain> there is a new commit on master
20:21:49  <Rubidium> regarding saving the password in the config; if you want seeds to change between servers, then you can't store it hashed. You could store it encrypted, but then you need to store the (decrypt) key as well... or derive the decrypt key from a password the user has to enter (which defeats the purpose of saving)
20:21:49  <andythenorth> to judge what other people want
20:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> now different question... i have a cheap-o-free email provider, who apparently limits the amount of recipients of outgoing mail. anyone have a clue how i can set my mail client to split the mail locally and then send multiple?
20:22:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: why is the button named "rebase" then?
20:22:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: in case you do allow non-up-to-date
20:22:25  <TrueBrain> I have been trying to tell you the ups and downs of that earlier :)
20:22:36  <LordAro> frosch123: how does that look? (Not including s/pending/recent/)
20:22:46  <andythenorth> 329
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20:23:31  <frosch123> LordAro: are those all, or the most recent n?
20:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming that's how long the news history is?
20:23:58  <LordAro> TrueBrain: re jenkins output, can you specify a little message about why it failed? "This commit cannot be built" is not all that helpful when it's just the commit message it's failed on
20:24:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: the current plugin cannot do that
20:24:11  <LordAro> frosch123: it's just listing everything in _oldest_news
20:24:18  <TrueBrain> I would really wish I could let it report on each step
20:24:22  <LordAro> :/
20:24:26  <TrueBrain> feel free to make a patch for it :)
20:24:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I suggest we let go of the up-to-date requirement on merging; the requirement is still there if CI is runniing anyway
20:24:51  <andythenorth> we can get to 300
20:24:56  <TrueBrain> so when the PR is created, it has to be up-to-date
20:25:02  <TrueBrain> when merging ... it just needs to be clean
20:25:12  <TrueBrain> (master might fail from time to time, but .. we fix that then :P)
20:25:16  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yep, wanted to suggest the same :)
20:25:24  <TrueBrain> we have to fiddle with this a bit :)
20:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: did you consider that the PR might have been sitting there for a year (or 5, or 20)?
20:25:56  <TrueBrain> frosch123: there you go
20:26:03  <frosch123> LordAro: i wondered whether the crashlog would be thousands of lines long, but i guess there is nothing wrong with it being long
20:26:12  <LordAro> i foresee a need for a CONTRIBUTING file in the repo
20:26:20  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes
20:26:24  <TrueBrain> can you make a start with that?
20:26:43  <andythenorth> that would be good
20:26:54  <andythenorth> the Bootstrap one I posted is not bad IMHO
20:27:05  <andythenorth>
20:27:08  <TrueBrain> frosch123: looking good
20:27:58  <LordAro> frosch123: there is RemoveOldNewsItems which i think prunes the list
20:27:58  <frosch123> what?
20:28:01  <LordAro> no idea how often though
20:28:10  <LordAro> ah, every month
20:28:33  <TrueBrain> and frosch123 bursts into the room and yells: WHAT? to noone in particular :D
20:29:01  <TrueBrain> frosch123: fixed all branches to follow the same requirement
20:29:10  <frosch123> what is looking good? me?
20:29:14  <andythenorth> and me
20:29:16  <andythenorth> for my age
20:29:20  <frosch123> ah, rebase
20:29:21  <TrueBrain> you? ALWAYS! but the merge always went good :)
20:29:27  <andythenorth> this is weird
20:29:27  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: not only for your age ;)
20:29:36  <andythenorth> you flatter
20:29:42  <andythenorth> 327
20:29:57  <TrueBrain> close 6586 already
20:30:04  <andythenorth> peter1138: so NRT? o_O
20:30:16  <Wolf01> How random
20:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: looks like it's expending the height of the line, but not the height of the underlying panel
20:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> expanding
20:31:11  <andythenorth> I have no idea how to repro
20:31:30  <andythenorth> LordAro: reminds me of your avatar
20:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well with the development version of DBSet, of course :p
20:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you can try CETS?
20:31:51  <andythenorth> is that distributed?
20:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it might have vehicles similar to that
20:32:03  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I closed 6586
20:32:19  <andythenorth> ok
20:32:26  <LordAro> andythenorth: that gif is ancient :p
20:32:33  <andythenorth> I wish I'd made it
20:32:42  <andythenorth> I like that it goes on...and on
20:33:40  <LordAro> glx: can you confirm (on #6708) whether mingw has readlink?
20:34:06  <andythenorth> @seen samu
20:34:06  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: samu was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 7 hours, 31 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Samu> :(
20:34:10  <andythenorth>
20:34:12  <TrueBrain> I really need to make a mingw docker I see ..
20:34:25  <TrueBrain> I? SOMEONE!
20:34:27  <andythenorth> seriously I should read src
20:34:33  <LordAro> YOU IS SOMEONE
20:34:35  <andythenorth> hth would autorenew be adding implicit orders?
20:34:53  <andythenorth> autorenew is batshit, but not that batshit
20:35:17  <TrueBrain> yeah, but that bug seems like really broken
20:35:35  <TrueBrain> GitHub is weird ... the history shows I never added 'bug' label, yet it is there :D
20:36:10  <LordAro> github's caches get confused sometimes
20:36:13  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it's an EBKC
20:37:56  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I guess we can accept 6708 .. for mingw there is already special code; we can check that at a later moment?
20:38:24  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, seems reasonable
20:39:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can add: This fixes #5722 in your commit message; than it autocloses! :D
20:39:25  <LordAro> "OpenTTD 20180412--g192770e6" Hrm
20:39:30  <Wolf01> would it be possible to do something like this for VS?
20:39:45  <andythenorth> I would sack this,
20:39:45  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i decided it wasn't strictly relevant to that issue, so I added it in the PR instead :p
20:39:48  <andythenorth> just join a company ^^
20:40:21  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: again, check labels :P
20:40:26  <andythenorth> I did
20:40:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I do think this is a bug that needs addressing :)
20:40:39  <andythenorth> I left my comment :)
20:40:47  <TrueBrain> its weird to not have it
20:40:57  <andythenorth> there's quality and there's quality :P
20:40:58  <TrueBrain> or someone has to explain it to me :P
20:41:02  <andythenorth> it's weird not to have world peace
20:41:06  <TrueBrain> also sounds like 5 minutes work
20:41:11  <andythenorth> anyway, I left it open
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20:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, i can sorta reproduce 6586 with CETS and the vehicle "VT 11.5" (introduced ca. 1957)
20:41:25  <andythenorth> you can? :)
20:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know how uptodate my openttd is though
20:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause> says r27604
20:41:51  <andythenorth> got a GH log in yet? o_O
20:41:57  <TrueBrain> tnx again LordAro :) (for 6708 :))
20:42:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: I think this one's a tarpit
20:42:37  <TrueBrain> CI is a bit busy :P
20:42:42  <andythenorth> it means converting tiles to water, on build
20:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's an issue with the window drawing order
20:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and there might also be an obiwan in the window offsets
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20:43:09  <andythenorth> but what kind of water?  Sea, at height level > 1?
20:43:16  <andythenorth> or river, but some magic river
20:43:22  <andythenorth> and then if industry closes, what?
20:44:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: argh, I dont think he understood me/us :)
20:44:14  <TrueBrain> now we do need glx to approve :)
20:44:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think some of that was implemented
20:44:39  <frosch123> industries preserve the water class
20:44:52  <frosch123> and when they draw the flat sea tile, ottd replaces it with river or canal water
20:45:15  <frosch123> but there is likely not enough control for *all* cases
20:45:55  <andythenorth> is the issue clear?
20:46:13  <andythenorth> George wants to set the water bit when the industry is built
20:46:27  <andythenorth> on any arbitrary tile
20:46:39  <andythenorth> at any height level
20:46:45  <frosch123> well, newlandscape stuff :)
20:46:50  <andythenorth> I think it's nuts
20:47:23  <andythenorth> he could just build the hotel with water tiles in it
20:47:31  <andythenorth> which might be what you were proposing
20:47:47  <andythenorth> then they build over the river, and provide $whatever sprites
20:49:21  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: #6633 too me it sounds evil/annoying to fix this .. what do you think?
20:49:40  <andythenorth> I think we have 624 issues :)
20:49:44  <TrueBrain> ty glx! That is serious good news :)
20:50:11  <TrueBrain> wtf  GitHub ... fails again to fetch the git hash
20:50:31  <andythenorth> 6633 sounds evil, but like a proper bug :(
20:50:48  <andythenorth> if the report is correct, cargo monitor only detects cargo going to a station, not an industry
20:51:04  <TrueBrain> yes ... but it sounds like it is annoying if it would to an industry
20:51:08  <TrueBrain> this gives a tiny bit more room
20:51:19  <andythenorth>
20:51:22  <TrueBrain> but okay .. bug it is
20:51:24  <andythenorth> spec says it's an industry :(
20:51:32  <andythenorth> report might be EBKC
20:51:59  <TrueBrain> okay, mister GitHub, why are you so weird ....
20:52:02  <andythenorth> hmm, patch suggests that it's a bug
20:52:05  <TrueBrain> the GUI shows another hash ...
20:52:14  <TrueBrain> EBKC?
20:52:21  <andythenorth> error between keyboard and chair
20:52:26  <TrueBrain> PEBKAC :)
20:52:32  <andythenorth> I shortened it
20:52:35  <TrueBrain> .....
20:52:49  <andythenorth> save the world by typing less
20:53:16  <andythenorth> I totally agree with this one
20:53:20  <glx> nice all PR are rejected ;)
20:53:26  <andythenorth> but I have had kind of 'meh' discussing it
20:53:34  <andythenorth> it's never going to get approved even if patched?
20:55:27  <TrueBrain> do you expect it in the next 6 months ?
20:55:37  <andythenorth> nope
20:55:40  <andythenorth> 2020
20:55:54  <TrueBrain> there is your answer
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20:57:10  <andythenorth> oops, I had a patch
20:58:23  <TrueBrain> I do not get why GitHub fails with PRs
21:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i don't know what these lines were meant to do
21:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but they both don't work right and they cause #6586
21:01:24  <andythenorth> does blame tells us anything?
21:01:43  <andythenorth> I can't find the rev
21:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i *think* it was meant to hide the light and dark grey panel borders to make the lines seem as one
21:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but for that it must be 2 high instead of 1
21:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and it must be done before the train sprites are drawn
21:02:31  <LordAro> pretty sure shouldn't be doing the second sed command
21:03:21  <andythenorth> I don't understand the goal of that change
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21:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well _my_ change was just to remove these broken lines
21:05:44  <LordAro> TrueBrain: you want to give #6708 jenkins build a poke? i imagine it tried building it when it was half way through being rebased
21:05:50  <TrueBrain> no
21:05:54  <TrueBrain> Github is in fail
21:06:00  <TrueBrain> the refs is not correct
21:06:00  <andythenorth> trying to find a commit that touched them
21:06:08  <TrueBrain> via git I cannot pull that commit
21:07:02  <LordAro> how interesting
21:07:07  <TrueBrain> I really dont get it
21:07:41  <andythenorth> apparently
21:07:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^
21:07:48  <TrueBrain> can you verify you see the same? refs/pull/6708/head
21:07:55  <TrueBrain> should show 4febcc4
21:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that seems right
21:08:43  <andythenorth>
21:08:54  <TrueBrain> funny, refs/pull/6708/merge does return the right chain
21:09:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so anyway, i'd move the GfxFillRect to before the loop that draws the train sprites, and then fill the whole rect instead of individual lines
21:10:38  <TrueBrain> LordAro: his commit is not on top of master; but that shouldnt be the reason ... really weird
21:12:00  <andythenorth>
21:12:29  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: 320 issues, time to quit? o_O
21:12:33  <TrueBrain> yeah
21:12:46  <andythenorth> I have read some of these about 50 times in last 12 months :P
21:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something along the lines of but with the /**/ parts replaced with the correct y values
21:12:57  <TrueBrain> we are slowlygetting there :)
21:13:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you need to do a PR or gist :D
21:13:18  <andythenorth> I am git-paste monkey for eddi today :)
21:13:25  <andythenorth> copy from irc, paste to GH
21:13:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is not ready yet
21:13:46  <andythenorth> GH issues dislike pasted code
21:13:53  <andythenorth> is that what gist is for?
21:13:56  <andythenorth> snippets?
21:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> " * @param y     The y coordinate" <-- well is that the top or bottom y coordinate?
21:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> also how does vscoll_pos work?
21:16:44  *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC
21:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe someone more knowledgeable about gui code should finish this
21:21:18  <Wolf01> y + text_y_offset
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21:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the surrounding code does some weird - operations on y
21:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "y - line_height * vscroll_pos + sprite_y_offset + pitch"
21:23:12  <Wolf01> Yes, sorry, py is y + text_y_offset, then the rest should be the same
21:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so the -line_height*vscroll_pos is adjusting for hidden lines that are scrolled outside?
21:23:55  <Wolf01> Yes
21:25:46  <TrueBrain> okay, asked GitHub why PRs are out of date
21:26:48  <andythenorth> 316
21:27:57  <TrueBrain> nice andythenorth :)
21:28:03  <andythenorth> 315
21:28:09  <andythenorth> I killed
21:29:06  <TrueBrain> lol, timeout while building OpenTTD
21:29:07  <TrueBrain> that is new :)
21:29:29  <LordAro> it really doesn't like that PR :p
21:29:51  <TrueBrain> I really dont like that Jenkins plugin
21:29:56  <TrueBrain> but not for now
21:30:46  <TrueBrain> the clang takes more IO priority over GCC
21:30:53  <TrueBrain> so the GCC dockers can timeout :)
21:31:12  <TrueBrain> I see andythenorth finally found a way to say: NO!
21:31:30  <andythenorth> I said no 50 ways last year
21:31:34  <andythenorth> I just needed a new one
21:31:35  <andythenorth> got bored
21:31:36  <TrueBrain> going to assign 2 more cores to that machines .. that should help
21:32:15  <TrueBrain> owh, it hs 2 cores
21:33:03  <Wolf01> Also, 'night, I'm sleeping on the keyboard while playing
21:33:13  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
21:33:14  <TrueBrain> sleep well
21:33:16  <TrueBrain> dammit
21:33:39  <andythenorth> can I get to 310? o_O
21:33:51  <TrueBrain> dont do too much at once
21:33:55  <TrueBrain> it makes you mute to certain things :)
21:36:23  <andythenorth> there's always 're-open'
21:36:30  <andythenorth> people want a feature, they need to make a case
21:36:40  <andythenorth> I don't just dump in tickets and wait
21:36:55  <andythenorth> I make a case, help with spec, help with test grf, patch nml etc
21:36:58  <andythenorth> so I get ponies
21:37:04  <TrueBrain> they cannot reopen andythenorth :)
21:37:09  <andythenorth> they can ask me
21:37:13  <TrueBrain> yup :)
21:37:17  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek owns the issues :D
21:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, i hit a roadblock... i can't move the "separate sprite row" bool before drawing the sprites, because it's not known how wide the sprites are before drawing them
21:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and something in me doesn't want to draw the sprites, erase them, and draw them again
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21:41:02  <TrueBrain> wtf ... now Jenkins is acting up ...
21:41:09  <TrueBrain> random IO issues
21:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i won't be able to finish this "proper" version
21:43:07  <andythenorth> :P
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21:47:02  <TrueBrain> I changed the commit message ... hope I am not being punished :D
21:47:47  <TrueBrain> pfew
21:47:53  <TrueBrain> okay, this nightmare is over; now time for some sleep
21:47:59  <TrueBrain> I wanted to watch a movie .. I kinda failed :D
21:48:08  <TrueBrain> 311 andythenorth; not bad :D
21:48:21  <andythenorth> this is more dumb timetable stuff
21:48:27  <TrueBrain> and good night :)
21:48:30  <andythenorth> timetables have so much bbad :)
21:48:33  <andythenorth> GN TB
21:48:39  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:49:29  <andythenorth> 310
21:49:34  <andythenorth> and bed
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