Log for #openttd on 13th April 2018:
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05:43:41  <andythenorth> o/
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07:54:17  <Arveen> happy Friday the 13th everyone
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08:05:12  <Pikka> o/
08:05:37  <andythenorth> lo Pikka
08:05:42  <Pikka> lo!
08:05:51  <andythenorth> I closed some of your issues :)
08:05:55  <andythenorth> you are now issue free :)
08:06:10  <Pikka> says you
08:06:16  <Pikka> what issues did I have?
08:06:25  <andythenorth>
08:07:15  <Pikka> oh dear
08:07:30  <andythenorth>
08:08:06  <Pikka> yes
08:08:39  <andythenorth> there are also a bunch of newgrf ponies
08:08:46  <andythenorth> from George and Michael
08:08:55  <andythenorth> which I don't know whether to close or not
08:09:04  <andythenorth> fact is, opening a ticket doesn't get the feature added
08:10:39  <Pikka> true so
08:11:25  <__ln__> speaking of inflation, does it still work the way that if i choose to start my game in e.g. 2050, all vehicles cost a billion but the the initial loan is still £10k? (and maximum loan is barely enough to buy one vehicle)
08:11:51  <Pikka> I don't think it ever worked that way
08:12:12  <Pikka> unless you're playing with a newgrf that makes vehicles cost a billion in 2050
08:12:13  <__ln__> i do think it worked somewhat that way
08:12:43  <__ln__> and obviously i didn't mean a literal billion, but "a lot" compared to how much money you can loan.
08:12:48  <Pikka> inflation starts from the year you start the game. if you start in 2050 the initial loan won't be inflated, but neither will the vehicle costs
08:13:41  <__ln__> gotta check how it works when i get home
08:32:13  <andythenorth>
08:32:48  <andythenorth> ^ I kind of agree with that, but eh, unix shell doesn't provide confirmation of changes
08:32:52  <andythenorth> 'worse is better'
08:33:09  <andythenorth> 'reload_newgrfs' -> "15 newgrfs have been reloaded"
08:33:14  <andythenorth> seems redundant really
08:38:17  <peter1138> Should reply with failure if not successful
08:39:01  <peter1138> set without a parameter should be invalid
08:39:12  <peter1138> should be get parameter for that
08:39:22  <peter1138> mind you it's not an api is it
08:40:39  <andythenorth> keep or close?
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08:42:49  <planetmaker> oh, we have all issues imported from flyspray. That's great :)
08:44:45  <peter1138> planetmaker, yes!
08:44:50  <peter1138> and the repo!
08:45:05  <peter1138> welcome ;p
08:45:19  <peter1138> Of course, andythenorth's been closing them willynilly ;)
08:45:40  <andythenorth> Truebrain too :P
08:48:41  <andythenorth> peter1138: enhanced bouys? o_O Or just better docks?
08:48:44  <andythenorth> docks on water :P
09:11:14  <andythenorth> if I click 'go to depot' could a train re-evaluate its path?
09:11:34  <andythenorth> I work around that behaviour with signal placement, but it's annoying ^
09:12:08  <andythenorth> manually reversing the train causes a path evaluation obvs.
09:12:22  <LordAro> at what point do you just close all of them? :p
09:14:16  <andythenorth> when they're done
09:14:19  <andythenorth> or invalid
09:16:03  <andythenorth> I think there are about 100 which are legit *and* somebody might actually do them
09:19:08  <peter1138> andythenorth, just better docks. Buoys as docks is stupid.
09:19:26  <andythenorth> I think so
09:19:41  <peter1138> Point #3 is interesting though.
09:19:56  <andythenorth> Yes
09:20:00  <andythenorth> but docks also
09:20:03  <andythenorth> 1 tile docks
09:20:08  <peter1138> Sure.
09:20:14  <andythenorth> build on water, anywhere
09:20:24  <andythenorth> no sprites
09:20:30  <andythenorth> no newgrf spec needed
09:20:31  <peter1138> Anywhere... hmm, not quite.
09:20:35  <andythenorth> well
09:20:44  <andythenorth> not on water that has other things on it
09:21:05  <andythenorth> hmm
09:21:10  <andythenorth> actually my idea is terrible
09:21:14  <peter1138> I think a dock needs to be next to land. Enforcing that with just a single tile is tricky.
09:21:26  <peter1138> And it needs to be visible.
09:21:34  <andythenorth> I think it would be nice to build docks at sea, for fishing grounds and so on
09:21:40  <andythenorth> or it might just be tedious :P
09:21:44  <peter1138> Don't fishing grounds have built in docks?
09:21:54  <andythenorth> they do, but they suck
09:21:57  <andythenorth> heliport
09:22:04  <peter1138> Heliport?
09:22:11  <andythenorth>
09:22:54  <andythenorth> helicopter fishing bothers people
09:23:13  <peter1138> So a fishing grounds can have helicopters "landing" there?
09:23:13  <peter1138> o_O
09:23:21  <andythenorth> yes
09:23:24  <andythenorth> it's the spec
09:23:35  <peter1138> Fix the spec.
09:23:41  <andythenorth> also accepts passengers by default
09:23:47  <andythenorth> so I can deliver pax to fishing ground
09:23:56  <andythenorth> like in places where they kill political prisoners that way
09:24:06  <andythenorth> charming
09:24:27  <andythenorth> just let player build the station I think
09:24:31  <peter1138> Do they just use the 18h tile and get the same behaviour?
09:24:38  <andythenorth> yes
09:24:47  <andythenorth> steel mill doesn't have built in stations eh
09:24:47  <peter1138> I guess fixing the spec won't fix the existing newgrfs.
09:24:48  <peter1138> Hmm
09:24:59  <andythenorth> I like 1 tile docks, built on water
09:25:12  <andythenorth> but does newbie player get harbour graphics?
09:25:18  <andythenorth> it's logical, but stupid also
09:26:03  <peter1138> Fix the spec to allow fishing grounds etc to not have a helipad/passenger bullshit
09:26:10  <peter1138> Then get the newgrfs fixed eventually.
09:27:10  <andythenorth> there's something where having a station shared between all companies messes up cdist too
09:27:13  <andythenorth> I'll look
09:28:05  <peter1138> Probably.
09:28:13  <andythenorth> can't find it :P
09:28:45  <peter1138> That's "relatively" "simple", "just" tag cargo chains with company id in stations.
09:28:50  <peter1138> Disallows cargo sharing then.
09:29:03  <peter1138> Ish.
09:29:22  <peter1138> Dunno how you'd treat cargo production.
09:29:46  <peter1138> I guess station rating is per-station as well, not per company @ station.
09:29:58  <peter1138> So oilrigs are broken already :D
09:30:34  <andythenorth> somewhat
09:30:37  <andythenorth> it's all terrible :)
09:30:40  <andythenorth> and yet it's fun
09:31:46  <andythenorth> __ln__: is this still?
09:34:21  <__ln__> andythenorth: unless the patch by minexew has been applied since, i assume it still is. though i haven't tried ottd in a while, especially not in fullscreen.
09:35:16  <andythenorth> thanks
09:36:31  <__ln__> i could look at it this weekend, and see if i could improve the two points i brought up myself
09:37:26  <andythenorth> :)
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09:41:44  <arahael> What are some good rail designs I should look at? I have a really, really long two-way track...  And I have traffic jams. :(
09:42:12  <arahael> I'm thinking of making four-track tracks, with the inner two bi-directional, rather than the classic two-track tracks.
09:42:43  <andythenorth> I like one-track-per-train :D
09:42:48  <andythenorth> works really well
09:42:54  <andythenorth> quite a lot of space needed :P
09:42:59  <arahael> What's the fun in that? ;)
09:43:17  <arahael> I'm trying to make *every* coal station service the one station.
09:43:23  <andythenorth> fair
09:44:01  <andythenorth>
09:44:16  <arahael> I forget how big I made it... I think it's 1024x1024, but I've only worked the one edge.
09:44:22  <arahael> Thanks, will check that out!
09:44:40  <andythenorth> can get lost in there :)
09:48:35  <arahael> Yeah, I'm looking for the track designs. :)
09:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> there's something where having a station shared between all companies messes up cdist too <-- cdist should have no problem with shared stations. just transfer payment is broken
09:51:33  <arahael> Only one company in this came. :)
09:51:35  <arahael> *game
09:51:47  <arahael> My big problem is that the simple two-line track just jams.
09:51:50  <arahael> Frequently.
09:52:22  <arahael> So the trains are always stopping.... Then they get to *half* their max speed before they stop again.
09:56:08  <peter1138> Is it worth redirecting to
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10:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> might need an alternate way to read the archived flyspray then?
10:01:52  * andythenorth biab
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10:10:58  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, isn't everything (in the openttd project) migrated?
10:11:11  <peter1138> I guess it is easier to read, but.
10:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno
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10:23:46  * arahael wonders if a 100% rating is possible (for cargo, at a train station)
10:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> temporary with advertising
10:25:21  <arahael> I ignore the towns entirely in this game.
10:25:33  <arahael> Can I make trains unload faster?
10:25:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:26:28  <andythenorth> you can with newgrf
10:26:37  <andythenorth> but it's not just click a button :)
10:28:35  <arahael> I was hoping that there was something in the game that let me. :)  Like perhaps, shorter trains.
10:29:09  <arahael> With this particular line, my absolute bottleneck is the unloading speed.
10:29:21  <andythenorth> what's your drop off station look like? o_O
10:29:25  <arahael> (Only one track in the station - it's a 7-track station, but I can only reserve one)
10:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the train is not longer than the platform, train length has no influence
10:29:56  <arahael> andythenorth: The tracks fan out and fan in.
10:30:03  <arahael> (For the most  part)
10:30:05  <andythenorth> is it ro-ro?
10:30:11  <arahael> What's that?
10:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: before you're thinking about quad-tracking your line, you should think about optimizing your station. a single track can easily fill 3 platforms
10:31:35  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, this close to the station I have a naive quad-tracked line.  Fans out to 6 platforms.
10:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes even more
10:31:52  <andythenorth>
10:31:54  <arahael> Perhaps I should add more tracks to the station, I'm not in classic TTD anymore.
10:32:07  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on how fast your trains accelerate out of the station
10:32:18  <arahael> Ah, yes, it's a ro-ro station.
10:32:49  <arahael> Hang on, let me make a screenshot.
10:33:33  <arahael>
10:34:18  <arahael> Sorry, let me try again, without the stupid finance. :)
10:35:03  <arahael> <-- Much better.
10:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that depot and tight curves are surely a bottleneck
10:36:07  <arahael> Which one?
10:36:16  <arahael> I didn't realise the curves were that tight?
10:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> all of them
10:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> do you have original or realistic acceleration?
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10:37:04  <arahael> I haven't changed it, so probably original?
10:37:20  <arahael> I basically downloaded openttd, and got to playing. :)
10:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i suggest realistic, original has this annoying habit that every tiny 1 tile climb slows down your trains massively. but with realistic you really need to look at your curve radius
10:38:55  <arahael> Hmm, interesting.
10:39:14  <arahael> Looks like the default setting is realistic, afterall.
10:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> where a "curve" is anything where your train turns more than once in the same direction
10:39:30  <arahael> And what's a "tight" curve?
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10:39:50  <arahael> Eg, \/ would be a tight curve, but \_/ is not?
10:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> a "tight" curve is anything where your train slows down below its top speed
10:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> could be \_/, could be \___/ or even more
10:41:01  <arahael> At what point would it start to slow down?
10:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a table in the code that maps distance between curve pieces to speed limits
10:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have it memorized, and it's different for trains and maglev
10:42:36  <arahael> I just tested that out..  Made one of those curves far bigger - it makes a big difference.
10:44:41  <arahael> I think I'm going to play with that, focusing on getting the train the **** out of the station.
10:52:37  <andythenorth> hmm
10:52:43  <andythenorth> flashing rear light for trains
10:53:02  <andythenorth> can't use the red on-off palette cycle for crossings
10:53:07  <andythenorth> shame
10:53:22  <andythenorth> can I detect if 'full animation' is off ?
10:53:58  <andythenorth> looks like display_options ANIMATION
10:55:02  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: How's this one?
10:55:29  <arahael> I guess I now need to optimise the loading a bit more.
10:55:59  <arahael> But it's keeping up with demand anyway, now.
10:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks fine, but now i would move the station away from the border and extend the other side too
10:57:04  <arahael> How many tiles should I shift it?
10:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and add more tracks while at it
10:58:04  <arahael> It's not really the bottlenck.
10:58:13  <arahael> The bottlenck is my network jamming.
11:00:48  <arahael> I've connected every coal station on this side (edge, really) of the map:
11:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i would definitely remove the S-curve from the entry
11:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e move the bridges to the left, and the station to the right, until it's straight
11:02:22  <arahael> How many tiles of the power station do I need to cover?
11:02:35  <arahael> Just the one?
11:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> use the ? tool to find out which tiles accept coal
11:03:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to cover one tile that accepts coal
11:03:47  <arahael> So just one tile in the power station? (The ? tool doesn't really seem to show anything useful?)
11:04:05  <Eddi|zuHause> some tiles don't accept coal
11:04:30  <arahael> Ah, I see!
11:04:41  <arahael> The dialogue changes completely.
11:05:04  <arahael> Most of the tiles didn't accept coal, so I assumed that was the regular dialog. :)
11:05:27  <arahael> Looks like I can shift it by 5.
11:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> some industries are a bit weird that way
11:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's even worse for oil refineries
11:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> because there's only like 2 tiles in that giant industry that actually accept oil
11:14:53  <andythenorth> can I use a remap sprite in a layer to knock out a colour?
11:15:06  <andythenorth> e.g. one of the pinks like 226?
11:15:18  <andythenorth> I want to use false colour to aid drawing, then remove it
11:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that should work
11:16:03  <andythenorth> I can do it in PIL trivially, but eh
11:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't know about layers, but in general, i did successfully remap a magic pink to a real colour before
11:18:00  <andythenorth>
11:18:06  <andythenorth> I need to pass a specific palette
11:18:09  <andythenorth> hmm
11:18:21  <andythenorth> I can do this in PIL in 3-4 lines
11:18:27  <andythenorth> but then I don't learn much
11:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, nmlc will reject pngs with wrong palette
11:19:30  <andythenorth> nah I mean in the switch expression
11:19:34  <andythenorth> there's an option to remap there
11:20:12  <andythenorth> not sure how palettes are defined
11:20:14  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause:  It's quite a bit better, actually.
11:21:51  <andythenorth> arahael: it's much less fun, but boats have infinite capacity :D
11:22:03  <andythenorth> until you run out of CPU power :P
11:22:54  <arahael> Heh, yeah: They can even overlap each other, I know - but I don't do non-fun. :)
11:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: alright, as next optimisation step, i would consider removing the X-crossings between parallel tracks. the game is not good with balancing choices between tracks, so they do more harm than good usually
11:24:05  <arahael> Oh, wow.
11:24:21  <arahael> Are there any alternatives, or just flat out remove them?
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11:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: if you have a quad main track, you should allow the trains to make a choice when entering the main line, but once they made this choice, they should commit to it
11:25:42  <arahael> My bright idea was that in the event of a jam, they could switch to the free track. :(
11:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but like people weaving through traffic, that might look like they get through faster, but they cause ripple effects in the traffic that slows it down for everyone
11:26:53  <arahael> *sigh*.
11:28:02  <arahael> So how would I get them to commit to the right track to start with? Remember, this track goes all the way along the edge. (Not quad all the way out... Only the tiny bit nearest the station is quad, at the moment)
11:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> managing this kind of flexible traffic correctly is really hard
11:29:14  <arahael> It just jammed again, though on the quad track, it's fairly obvious why it jams. Resolving the jam on the much longer dual-track is much harder:
11:29:44  <arahael> You'll see how I've got the inner tracks fully bi-directional, and the other-track strictly in their direction?
11:29:55  <arahael> I was hoping that design might work.
11:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> investigating jams is tricky, because you might need to look at the last train that got through to isolate the cause of the jam
11:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> but like i said, X-crossings mostly do more harm than good. and bi-directional pieces of track are even worse
11:32:43  <arahael> I'll have to remove them, then.  Is there still value in doing quad tracks?
11:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:33:53  <arahael> Awesome - I'll get right onto that, then!
11:34:09  <arahael> Just gotta sort out this other nearby station, the coal output has become massive.
11:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the important bit about the design of a quad-track mainline is that you must make sure that trains never ever stop on the main line
11:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to look at things like priority signals when merging branch lines into the main line
11:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and when the pickup station on a branch line is full, you need to have enough space that trains can queue up outside of the main line
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11:37:12  <arahael> I've never really played with priority signals.
11:37:23  <arahael> Is there a good discussion about them?
11:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i would never play like this :)
11:38:34  <arahael> Heh, naturally. :)
11:38:41  <arahael> You're a one-track-per-train guy, yes?
11:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:39:20  <arahael> What's your thing?
11:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> my maps look something like this,%205.%20Nov%201988.png
11:41:30  <arahael> The previous game I played... Was 10 years ago. :)
11:41:43  <arahael> Your map is quite a bit smaller. :)
11:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a bit unusual for me, but at that time, i needed a map size that i could fill relatively quickly
11:42:31  <arahael> Ah, so you're more into connecting the industries.
11:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that game was 90% passengers
11:42:57  <arahael> I wanted to do that...  But given the size of the map, and I was just really tired, so I was thinking: "Lets do the coal. Just the coal..."
11:43:03  <arahael> Passengers are remarkably easy.
11:43:12  <arahael> But you end up having to do city design.
11:43:20  <arahael> Which is just an irritation, for me.
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11:43:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that game was to test a variant of a cargo destinations patch
11:44:14  <arahael> No idea what that is! :)
11:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes cargo have an opinion of where it wants to go, instead of the player deciding where to pick it up and drop it off
11:45:59  <arahael> Oh, that would be fun.
11:46:23  <arahael> And realistic.
11:46:33  <andythenorth> nice map Eddi|zuHause
11:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the game now includes "cargo distribution" which does that in a sense, but it only considers connections that you actually deliver to
11:46:46  <andythenorth> I don't have the patience for so many bus routes
11:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the patch that i tested there went a step further, and considered all possible destinations on the map
11:47:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so if there were two power stations, and you only connected one of them to your network, you would only get half the coal
11:48:35  <arahael> I wonder which is more realistic.
11:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which is a nice idea, but it caused all sorts of followup problems like industries closing because their transport rating is too low
11:49:23  <peter1138> Hm, so.
11:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and it had performance issues
11:49:38  <peter1138> Github is evil.
11:49:50  <peter1138> Now what?
11:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a mercurialhub?
11:50:07  <peter1138> I suspect it's the hub part that matters ;p
11:50:15  * arahael is now wondering how best to do intersections at a quad track.
11:50:43  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: Perhaps the price you get for the cargo could be multiplied by the desirability of that destination, or osmething?
11:50:55  <peter1138> Path signals. Tracks crossing tracks.
11:51:00  <andythenorth> it is evil
11:51:15  <arahael> peter1138: Yes... I figured path signals woudl be involved. :)
11:51:16  <andythenorth> and maintaining our own poor clone of it is evil
11:51:21  <andythenorth> and the internet, broadly, is evil
11:51:39  <peter1138> Yeah, it took me ages to get gitea working properly, still having issues :S
11:51:53  <arahael> peter1138: What's the issue with github, incidentially?
11:52:09  <peter1138> Their ToS/privacy policy upsets some people.
11:52:14  <andythenorth> easy to track individual contributors
11:52:22  <andythenorth> no segmented identity
11:52:51  <arahael> peter1138: Meh, that's part and parcel of being free, I would say?
11:53:05  <andythenorth> aggregated networks are very hostile to people who need to keep parts of their lives separate
11:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: price changes like that don't make a lot of sense. you're being paid for transporting. you're not buying the coal at the mine and selling it at the power station
11:54:23  <andythenorth> but github won, so eh
11:54:29  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: That's a fairly good point.
11:54:42  <arahael> andythenorth: Oh, it's aggregated now?
11:54:57  <andythenorth> your public profile lists all projects you contributed to, afaik
11:55:05  <arahael> Ah, yeah.
11:55:07  <andythenorth> and you are only allowed one username
11:55:08  <peter1138> Yeah, even if it's just a bug report.
11:55:23  <andythenorth> so there are 10 different reasons why that might be bad for some people
11:55:54  <arahael> I did notice that, which annoyed me at the time but I didn't have the energy to care much.
11:56:25  <andythenorth> it's kind of limiting if any of the following apply:
11:56:41  <andythenorth> - it's an infosec attack vector
11:56:53  <andythenorth> - you have to keep paid work and hobby work separate
11:57:02  <andythenorth> - you contribute to politically sensitive projects
11:57:38  <andythenorth> - your contributions could reveal things you want to keep secret, e.g. health status, gender, sexuality, other protected characteristics
11:57:43  <arahael> Luckily, for me, we have our *own* github for work.  But I still have the organisation show up on github. :(
11:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so you're actively trying to talk me out of creating a github account now?
11:57:48  <andythenorth> - your contributions could make you a target for persistent trolls
11:58:31  <andythenorth> it's basically fine if you're in a group with relatively more privilege, or you just don't give a fuck
11:58:58  <andythenorth> and tech is mostly built by those with relatively more privilege
11:59:08  <arahael> I fully agree.
11:59:10  <andythenorth> so all is for the best in this the best of all possible worlds
11:59:44  <andythenorth> ultimately it's a train game, we're not trying to save the world, so tradeoffs eh
11:59:50  <arahael> I'm part of a (very small) minority, but sadly, such that it feels like I really should be more politically active, yet I don't want to worry too much about how it migh taffect work.  Blegh.
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12:01:07  <andythenorth> social networks are good at limiting political activism only to those with strong views
12:01:18  <andythenorth> they remove any middle ground where consensus could be built
12:01:21  <arahael> I have strong - but very contrary views. :(
12:01:35  <andythenorth> I think social networks are a fairly toxic development
12:01:39  <andythenorth> watching Zuck was interesting
12:01:41  <arahael> They are, yes.
12:02:42  <arahael> Zuck is privilaged as all heck.
12:03:00  <arahael> Luckily, in some ways, so am I. (I have a job, a reliable income, etcetera)
12:03:12  <arahael> Within my minority, that's unusual.
12:03:39  <arahael> (I'm deaf, btw)
12:07:54  * arahael imagines a pin drop.
12:08:39  <andythenorth> born deaf or lost hearing during life?
12:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, you don't need hearing in IRC :p
12:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to think my choice of cheap-o-free mail provider was terrible
12:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't let me send a mail to 40+ recipients at a time
12:10:54  <arahael> andythenorth: I was 1 year old, raised "oral", but now sign.
12:11:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gmail? o_O
12:11:38  <andythenorth> obvs. google get all your stuff
12:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not an idea i'm too fancy of
12:12:29  <arahael> andythenorth: Google has it anyway.
12:12:49  <arahael> I use fastmail, but I hear protonmail's good for privacy.
12:13:18  <arahael> So I have a tri-rail track... TWo going one way, one going the other. (Soon to be a quad-rail track). However...
12:13:31  <arahael> Almost every train is using only one of the two incoming tracks. :(
12:13:47  <arahael> I'd say 1 in... 7? Uses the other rail.
12:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> with two parallel tracks, you need to balance the pathfinder penalties
12:14:45  <arahael> Of course, that 1/7 is fast.
12:14:49  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: How do I do that?
12:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure both tracks are roughly the same length, amount of curves, crossings, etc.
12:15:28  <arahael> Hmm, interesting.
12:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if they are roughly equal, you now can optimise your merge intersections so trains distribute themselves equally, depending on where the current reservations/red signals are
12:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's where the priority signals come into play
12:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so the merging train won't cut off a train on the main line, and choose the other track
12:18:20  <arahael> :(
12:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have long signal distance, priority signals are actually not that difficult to do
12:18:57  <arahael> Back in two secs... Gotta go snort some water.
12:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having a bit of trouble identifying which side of the track your trains go on
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12:23:34  <arahael> Left.
12:23:35  <arahael> I'm Australian. :)
12:23:35  <arahael> So I have two tracks going to the left, and one to the right.
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12:28:35  <andythenorth> so a random switch seems to wipe out graphics layers
12:28:45  <andythenorth> wondering if it clears a register somehow
12:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: this is a simple priority signal with roughly even choice between tracks
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12:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm...
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12:32:13  <arahael> Just my luck - that was a netsplit.
12:32:24  <arahael> What did I last say?
12:33:56  <andythenorth> does FORWARD_SELF(0) thrash register 0x100?
12:33:58  <andythenorth> o_O
12:34:27  <arahael> In any case, Eddi|zuHause - my *miniscule* change of moving a signal closer ot the intersection right at the station fixed the weights up.
12:34:29  <arahael> So it's all good.
12:35:00  <arahael> Thanks so much for all your help! :)  I have to get to bed about now...
12:35:02  <andythenorth> yeah
12:35:11  <andythenorth> type 84 thrashes register 100 :(
12:35:17  <andythenorth> that's...annoying
12:36:33  <andythenorth> that means some multi-part vehicles can never have random sprites with layers
12:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: my last line before you quit was: this is a simple priority signal with roughly even choice between tracks
12:38:10  <arahael> I didn't catch that one.
12:38:12  <arahael> Thanks.
12:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> before that you were saying you're australian
12:39:38  <arahael> Ah, you lost everything I said, then!  Summary: I had two tracks going to the left, one to the right: But adding *one* signal right near the station fixed the weights up completely perfectly. :(
12:40:10  <andythenorth> so why does FORWARD_SELF(1) not trash 0x100?
12:40:30  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: I don't understand how that 3yF3ONBJU5Vi.png works.
12:41:01  <arahael> I have to get to bed now, though, so perhaps I'll ask again or will do some reading later.
12:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: so, trains on the main line come from the bottom right and go to the top left
12:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: they treat the exit signal like a normal signal, nothing changes for them
12:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: but a train approaching the exit signal on the main line will change that combo signal on the branch line to red, so no train can come there and cut it off
12:42:06  <andythenorth> maybe I have to wait for frosch
12:42:08  <peter1138> andythenorth, use a different register?
12:42:33  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, I think I'll have to study that and give it a play tomorrow.  Thanks again for your time!
12:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause> arahael: if both main lines are blocked by approaching or leaving trains, the combo signals both are red, and the entry signal turns red as well, so a train will wait there until one of the sides opens up
12:42:54  <andythenorth> peter1138: spec says 0x100
12:43:04  <arahael> Eddi|zuHause: G'night!
12:45:25  <andythenorth> real proper spec
12:46:27  <andythenorth> I reckon I just don't set count 0 for type 84 random varact2
12:46:32  <andythenorth> problem goes away
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12:49:36  <andythenorth> yup
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12:58:08  <Pikka> andy: don't you need it set to 0?
13:00:45  <andythenorth> I do if I want to read 0x100
13:01:04  <andythenorth> but doing that is a BAD IDEA if I want to use spritelayers
13:01:14  <andythenorth> register collision
13:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- according to this, FORWARD_SELF(0) reads register 0x100
13:01:49  <andythenorth> yes
13:01:56  <andythenorth> that's why I can't set 0 there
13:02:11  <andythenorth> on the plus side pikka bob, rear lights via layers
13:02:15  <andythenorth> works
13:02:24  <Pikka> o/
13:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then what is the actual problem?
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13:03:07  <andythenorth> the actual problem is incorrectly trying to use 0x100 in two places in the same chain
13:03:20  <andythenorth> the actual solution is trivial, because one of the uses is accidental
13:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's ok, if you do it in the right order
13:03:58  <Pikka> oh, right. if it's non-0 it doesn't read the register
13:04:30  <andythenorth> it's not clear here that FORWARD_SELF(0) reads the register
13:04:40  <andythenorth> eh
13:04:44  * andythenorth could fix, but chores
13:05:08  <Pikka> yar, makes sense now
13:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ah, so you set FORWARD_SELF(0) in the expectation that would read the current vehicle, which just happened to work because 0x100 happened to be 0 all the time
13:06:19  <andythenorth> yes
13:06:32  <andythenorth> docs aren't quite comprehensive enough
13:06:47  <andythenorth> the footnote suggests all values are valid also
13:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i'm expecting it tries to constantify them, and if that fails, stores the result in 0x100
13:08:19  <andythenorth> ...which would nicely clear 0x100
13:08:20  <andythenorth> :)
13:12:09  * andythenorth updated docs
13:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not the correct way to document it
13:14:28  <andythenorth> probably not, but eh
13:14:41  <andythenorth> dishwasher won't unload itself, and no-one else will document it :P
13:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> is that clear?
13:20:06  <andythenorth> yes
13:20:09  <andythenorth> thanks
13:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not 100% that's what it does though
13:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there's some strange "1 <= random_switch.type_count.value <= 15" test that i'm not sure what it's intended for
13:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so if i read it correctly, if it's a constant and that constant is between 1 and 15, it doesn't use 0x100
13:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it overwrites 0x100
13:25:20  <andythenorth> that would make sense somewhat
13:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> updated
13:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 1..15 is the range that the NFO expression can handle directly as constants
13:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, using a register is a side effect that better be documented correctly :)
13:28:22  <andythenorth> yes that's clear
13:28:26  <andythenorth> thanks
13:30:00  <andythenorth> biab
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13:45:50  <peter1138> Hmm
13:51:56  <supermop_work> yo
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14:12:04  <Pikka> yoyo
14:22:09  <Alberth> o/
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15:22:35  <supermop_work> this elevator vendor i am working with is named 'rusty doom'
15:24:52  <peter1138> Promising.
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16:53:12  * peter1138 ponders
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16:55:51  <peter1138> Wonder where to start on NRT.
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16:56:33  <peter1138> andythenorth will know
16:56:39  <andythenorth> probably
16:56:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: 280
16:57:34  <peter1138> This is messy :(
16:57:43  <andythenorth> peter1138: TB said 'just" do this
16:58:02  <peter1138> Perhaps but the history is messy
16:58:14  <andythenorth> we want cleaner commits?
16:58:17  <andythenorth> fewer 'sync'
17:00:13  <peter1138> Fewer unrelated commits.
17:00:28  <peter1138> Fewer fixing of previous commits.
17:01:05  <peter1138> What is a RoadTypeIdentifier?
17:01:36  <frosch123> a tuple of baseroadtype and roadsubtype or so
17:02:17  <frosch123> base being road/tram, subtype being the index in the pool
17:07:36  <peter1138> It's very... organic.
17:08:31  <andythenorth> you could refactor, we have grfs to test with
17:08:34  <andythenorth> and expected behaviour
17:08:39  <peter1138> *nod*
17:08:44  <andythenorth> no unit tests afaik :P
17:08:54  <peter1138> That's normal for ottd :D
17:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> unit tests are tricky to build for a program that was never desinged with "units" in mind
17:09:42  <andythenorth> well we could have functional tests :P
17:09:50  <andythenorth> I don't fancy writing them though
17:10:05  <andythenorth> I considered if I should write tests for FIRS
17:10:19  <andythenorth> as I am fixing a total clown shoes mistake in the last release :P
17:11:04  <peter1138> I might just go out on the bicycle instead.
17:11:26  <andythenorth> :P
17:13:23  <andythenorth> hmm Jenkins is angry about FIRS
17:13:27  <andythenorth> is my release bad? o_O
17:13:34  <andythenorth>
17:13:55  <andythenorth> oh I broke hg
17:14:19  <peter1138> Connection refused.
17:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> 17:07:54 [workspace] $ hg pull --rev default
17:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 17:07:54 abort: error: Connection refused
17:14:47  <peter1138> Switch it to git.
17:15:12  <andythenorth> it's tempting
17:15:14  <frosch123> retry :)
17:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> who is maintaining coop servers right now anyway?
17:15:21  <andythenorth> probably frosch123
17:15:25  <andythenorth> I feel bad
17:15:39  <frosch123> anyway, daily restart cron is still not enough for kallithea
17:15:42  <frosch123> oom all day
17:15:47  <andythenorth> but I am not to be trusted with SSH :P
17:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: sounds like a piece of infrastructure that should be ripped out and replaced with something different
17:16:47  <andythenorth> github :P
17:16:52  <andythenorth> for better or worse
17:17:16  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: good idea, please file a PR for
17:17:54  <andythenorth> hmm Jenkins refusing my auth creds
17:17:57  <andythenorth> the auth system hates me
17:18:05  <andythenorth> nvm it's building
17:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't understand
17:18:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 1. you want more tests, 2. we have a github project for testbuilds of ottd, 3. there was a project on devzone to test various build configurations
17:19:21  <frosch123> 4. if you have time for whining you also have time for that
17:19:48  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you dont even sort on static vs non-static?
17:19:58  <TrueBrain> *bit shocked* :D
17:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem isn't really the amount of time i have
17:20:03  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: tnx for the spam :D Nice work :)
17:20:20  <andythenorth> who is writing the then?
17:20:27  <andythenorth> I have some stuff for it
17:20:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the variables are grouped logically, sorting them by external/internal linkage would make the code worse imho
17:20:55  <andythenorth> "We close issues to keep focus, too many issues is overwhelming"
17:21:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I cannot believe _ means global
17:21:10  <TrueBrain> that is ... so anti-any-other-pattern-I-know :D
17:21:11  <andythenorth> "A closed issue can be re-opened if you make a good case"
17:21:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think the normal pattern is "never prefix stuff with _, it is reserved for OS and compiler internals"
17:22:02  <TrueBrain> in languages like Python it means private/protected
17:22:04  <TrueBrain> but yeah ..
17:22:27  <TrueBrain> and sorting static vs non-static can really help .. there is normally a huge difference between your publicAPI and your internals
17:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> does python actually enforce that or is that just a convention?
17:22:36  <TrueBrain> but .. yeah .. I should have checked the coding style before blabbing :D
17:22:40  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: convention
17:22:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think you are talking about static/non-static in class scope
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17:23:13  <frosch123> i think "static" has 4 meanings in c++14
17:23:13  <Wolf01> Moin
17:23:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: .... static in my book means: only in this scope (when outside a class etc)
17:23:49  <TrueBrain> so no other cpp file can use it
17:23:57  <TrueBrain> ("private" to that file)
17:24:02  <TrueBrain> ran out of other ways to describe what it does in C :D
17:24:21  <TrueBrain> I know little about C++ ... :(
17:24:53  <frosch123> yes, in source file scope "static" is similar to "private" in classes :)
17:25:16  <TrueBrain> so now you have 2 local variables, 1 global, and 1 local again
17:25:21  <TrueBrain> I would at least assume that had to be grouped
17:25:28  <TrueBrain> so it is more clear what is kept local, and what can be picked up global
17:25:34  <frosch123> they are grouped by meaning, not by access class
17:25:56  <TrueBrain> okay; good to know :)
17:26:12  <frosch123> i also do not sort variables by "int first, then pointers" :p
17:26:14  <TrueBrain> still cannot believe _ means global :P
17:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember some language where "static" meant "this variable retains its value through multiple function calls"
17:26:36  <TrueBrain> sorting rule is easy .. alphabet! Done :)
17:26:44  <andythenorth> ok let's get to 200 now
17:26:49  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: yes, php, java, c#
17:26:57  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: did the name of that language begin with 'C'?
17:27:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am still surprised :D But I will get over it :) Tnx!
17:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i'm switching between languages often enough that i cannot associate language features with language names anymore
17:27:58  <frosch123> <- well, only 3, it felt like there was a 4th
17:28:47  <TrueBrain> yeah, so it is what I asusmed it was, even in C++
17:29:11  <TrueBrain> it just reads so annoying ... I really learnt to love the visual game you can do with programming languages :)
17:29:16  <TrueBrain> owh well :) Coding style is coding style
17:29:28  <TrueBrain> *mutters something about _ for global ... *
17:29:43  <peter1138> We've always used _ for global.
17:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that one is easy to solve, remove all global variables
17:29:55  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: go for it
17:30:12  <andythenorth> refactoring is easy when we have so many tests
17:30:16  <andythenorth> oh wait :P
17:30:36  <TrueBrain> I do remember in 2004 there was a lot of debate about anythin in the freaking coding style
17:30:41  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that one is easy to solve, remove all global variables <- I already did it for some
17:30:42  <TrueBrain> that was very painful
17:30:57  <TrueBrain> especially the * placement
17:31:08  <peter1138> Haha, I was just going to comment about that.
17:31:17  <peter1138> One person want it the wrong way.
17:31:27  <peter1138> +ed
17:31:37  <TrueBrain> that person wanted a lot of things against everyone else tbfh
17:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a name popping up in my head
17:31:56  <frosch123> Stroustrup?
17:32:01  <TrueBrain> but okay .. the project did get a lot better with an established coding style
17:32:07  <TrueBrain> 4 letters
17:32:07  <Eddi|zuHause> not that one
17:32:18  <glx> starting with t
17:32:21  <TrueBrain> if we talk about anything that was annoying in the old days
17:32:23  <TrueBrain> 4 letters
17:32:24  <peter1138> Good movie.
17:32:28  <TrueBrain> yes
17:32:30  <peter1138> So...
17:33:17  <peter1138> I wonder if I should look at the final NRT changes, and then split it up logically.
17:33:48  <TrueBrain> still not over _ .. lol :D Sorry, just a bit flabbergasted
17:33:49  <__ln__> there was one good thing about that though... we immediately got to know what is not funny, and when a discussion has ended.
17:34:32  <peter1138> "Codechange: rogue blank line"
17:34:39  <peter1138> So not even a code change.
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17:35:11  <andythenorth> so only 50 'enhancements from flyspray' left TrueBrain
17:35:15  <andythenorth>
17:35:19  <TrueBrain> nice work there
17:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause> this peer dude seems active again
17:35:29  <andythenorth> the AI and GS, I can't comment so much
17:35:41  <andythenorth> the newgrf, it's just doing hard politics :(
17:36:09  <glx> I tried to fix my PR but it didn't end well
17:36:19  <andythenorth> quite a few about hotkeys
17:37:03  <TrueBrain> glx: I have asked GitHub what is going on, because for some reason after a force push, GitHub is not doing what it says it should be doing
17:37:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: would this be blocked by 'station areas are nonsense' o_O
17:37:12  <andythenorth> or am I spreading FUD?
17:37:19  <TrueBrain> but they havent responded yet
17:37:46  <glx> TrueBrain: yes because force push is the usual way to update PR as google told me
17:37:54  <TrueBrain> yup
17:38:05  <TrueBrain> and I think it is really a bug on their side
17:38:26  <TrueBrain> but I use a plugin many others also use, and didnt change this part
17:38:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: my todo list has the item "add option to make catchment area logical, default it to on and hide it in expert/arcane settings"
17:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's easily solved by having a switch delivery/pickup
17:38:43  <glx> on the web side it's correct, but I can't get the PR in github desktop
17:39:13  <frosch123> glx: can you extend your kick script for "easy solved"?
17:39:26  <glx> it shows the old commits instead
17:39:32  <TrueBrain> glx: yup; CI has the same issue
17:41:48  <andythenorth> I assumed JGR would have station coverage, but no
17:41:51  <andythenorth> surprised by that
17:42:04  <frosch123> juanjo may have it
17:42:12  <frosch123> at least i think we talked about it 5 years ago :p
17:42:41  <TrueBrain> glx: only workaround I have found, is the create a new PR :P
17:42:46  <TrueBrain> I really have no clue why it does this
17:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, mathematically speaking, area for pickup is union[each station tile](extend(tile, catchment radius)), whereas area for delivery is extend(enclosing rectangle(all station tiles), catchment radius)
17:42:57  <andythenorth> oh JGR has some kind of zoning
17:43:04  <andythenorth> but I tried to figure it out before
17:43:06  <andythenorth> and couldn't
17:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the zoning patch exists
17:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it does something slightly different, though
17:44:38  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: can we close 6607?
17:45:09  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: these are the ones where I don't want to touch the politics tbh
17:45:27  <andythenorth> some of Michael and George's requests seem pretty reasonable
17:45:37  <andythenorth> but they're very out of any loop that would get them done
17:45:37  <TrueBrain> lot of requests seem reasonable
17:45:48  <TrueBrain> but ..... keeping them around is not helping either
17:45:51  <andythenorth> no
17:46:03  <TrueBrain> so, will it be implemented in the next year? :D
17:46:05  <andythenorth> no
17:46:09  <andythenorth> I can't do it
17:46:12  <andythenorth> and nobody else wants to
17:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> we could also unify the two areas, by storing the area as rectangle in the station list, and upon move_to_station call we go through the list of stations and pick one that the house/industry is in, instead of looking in a tileloop around the house/industry
17:46:47  <andythenorth> JGR does have station catchment shown
17:46:49  <andythenorth> so it's done
17:46:53  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ugh, I see your issue, reading the ticket better
17:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that will result in stations getting cargo that previously didn't
17:47:22  <andythenorth> Michael makes requests that I think are totally reasonable
17:47:31  <andythenorth> but he won't get them because he pissed you all off
17:47:38  <andythenorth> so it's a dead ticket
17:48:11  <TrueBrain> 6607 seems like a trivial one for someone new to learn NewGRF, I guess
17:48:58  <TrueBrain> *reads frosch123 commit messages* *reads the code* *puzzled* *head hurts* *Why are you doing this to me*
17:49:17  <andythenorth> I closed
17:49:20  <TrueBrain> ah, there is another branch check lower
17:49:22  <TrueBrain> lol
17:49:57  <LordAro> frosch123: you could remove the trailing ; as well :p
17:50:07  <andythenorth> this sounds really bad to me, because my judgement is off :P
17:50:17  <andythenorth> I always freak out about errors :P
17:50:19  <frosch123> hmm true
17:50:26  <TrueBrain> lol
17:51:27  <frosch123> hmm, repushed before jenkins was done
17:51:32  <frosch123> i am sure this breaks stuff :p
17:51:53  <TrueBrain> Jenkins can handle that fine :)
17:52:00  <glx> if you forced everything will break ;)
17:52:18  <frosch123> i did :)
17:52:26  <TrueBrain> you did before without issue
17:52:28  <frosch123> but yes, could also have been a case for squasing
17:52:28  <TrueBrain> its a bit weird
17:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so when can we expect DorpsGek to announce merges here?
17:53:22  <TrueBrain> go to #openttd.notice
17:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that was not the question
17:53:37  <LordAro> ^^
17:53:39  <TrueBrain> but an answer nevertheless
17:54:23  <peter1138> You can go your own waaaaaaaaaaaay
17:54:31  <glx> DorpsGek doesn't announce things in .notice anyway
17:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i was expectin that in #openttd.notice you wanted to run tests how spammy/reliable it is, and then reenable it here
17:55:15  <TrueBrain> and frosch123's PR now also broke
17:55:20  <TrueBrain> seriously ... what .. the .. fuck ...
17:55:36  <LordAro> which GH plugin are you using?
17:55:39  <glx> it's clearly a github bug
17:55:43  <TrueBrain> not relevant
17:55:48  <TrueBrain> the bug is in the GitHub repo itself
17:56:02  <LordAro> oh right
17:56:03  <LordAro> yeah
17:56:11  <LordAro> did you get a response from GH?
17:56:12  <glx> because the display on the site is correct
17:56:15  <TrueBrain> refs/pull/<id>/head reports wrong hash
17:56:30  <TrueBrain> no reply yet ..
17:56:50  <TrueBrain> this is just bloody annoying
17:56:57  <TrueBrain> but cant find anyone else complaining about it
17:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i see, the transition goes smoothly :)
17:57:12  <peter1138> It was working, right?
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17:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your definition of "it", "was" and "working", i suppose
17:59:10  <glx> indeed github desktop still shows the old version in PR
17:59:29  <TrueBrain> even their own client is fail .. well, I hope they can find what is causing it
17:59:38  <LordAro> TrueBrain: ?
17:59:51  <LordAro> not helpful, but shows someone else having the problem
18:00:39  <TrueBrain> indeed, not alone :)
18:00:57  <glx> and confirms our idea ;)
18:01:12  <TrueBrain> it also seems to be recent
18:01:16  <TrueBrain> it started yesterday or so
18:01:35  <TrueBrain> as before that we did a few rebases just fine
18:01:41  <andythenorth> now we learn about problems caused by our host :)
18:01:54  <frosch123> move to gitlab! :p
18:02:05  <TrueBrain> yes! Lets move for every bug we find to another!
18:02:08  <andythenorth> host our own!
18:02:09  <TrueBrain> in no time we will be using notepad!
18:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> are those the evil ones?
18:02:25  <LordAro> pretty sure github are the evil ones
18:02:36  <andythenorth> this is a totally valid bug, but there's no solution
18:02:40  <andythenorth> negative has to be red
18:02:51  <andythenorth> it's completely illegible, but it has to be red
18:03:42  <TrueBrain> doesnt github have an issue tracker or something ?
18:03:51  <LordAro> andythenorth: lighter grey?
18:04:04  <andythenorth> that would require the entire UI to be refactored
18:04:14  <LordAro> true
18:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe something can be done with shadow colour?
18:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or a setting like for the map colours?
18:04:54  <andythenorth> I tried it a black shadow
18:04:59  <andythenorth> it's moderately better
18:05:09  <andythenorth> interestingly the various charts disagree about negative
18:05:20  <andythenorth> some have black y axis -ve labels
18:05:21  <andythenorth> some have red
18:05:26  <andythenorth> finance window is black
18:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a missing {COLOR} in some STR_WHATEVER?
18:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or different string code used?
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18:07:14  <andythenorth> adding a black shadow is the fastest solution
18:07:52  <TrueBrain> okay, #6584 is very cryptic ... is the issue here that in the german version the top line below the image is missing?
18:08:06  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: did the fix for yesterday work? The train depot list stuff
18:08:33  <andythenorth> the g is truncated in last line TrueBrain
18:08:40  <TrueBrain> ah
18:08:43  <andythenorth> as though it's not given enough space or so
18:08:47  <TrueBrain> but there isa also les sinformation in that window!!
18:08:49  <andythenorth> I don't know the UI box model
18:08:53  <TrueBrain> the cost is not there
18:08:57  <andythenorth> but that would be overflow hidden
18:09:19  <TrueBrain> and weight
18:10:06  <andythenorth> it's a bug
18:10:15  <TrueBrain> how weird!
18:10:20  <andythenorth> but how and where, dunno :P
18:10:21  <TrueBrain> but I like he complains about the letter at the end :D
18:11:23  <TrueBrain> I like how for many things adf88 has a patch uploaded
18:11:42  <andythenorth> he does
18:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, the initial "dirty" fix "worked", but the "proper" fix didn't work out
18:12:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: possible we need priorty labels of some sorts .. lot of projects have that .. for example, #6582 is a bug, but .. meh; not that imprtant. Yet others are important
18:12:50  <TrueBrain> not sure
18:13:08  <andythenorth> I would wait a bit
18:13:20  <andythenorth> I agree basically, but there are other ways to skin that cat
18:13:43  <TrueBrain> minor / critical
18:13:47  <TrueBrain> but more flavours of the same :D
18:14:25  <TrueBrain> #6581 .. another one .. sure, it would be nice .. but .. priority-wise it is somewhere down there
18:14:30  <TrueBrain> yet it sounds minor to fix
18:16:43  <TrueBrain> I love your comment on #6558 andythenorth :D
18:16:46  <TrueBrain> it is very descriptive :)
18:17:04  <TrueBrain> (the last one)
18:17:09  <andythenorth> is video
18:17:10  <andythenorth> eh
18:17:17  <TrueBrain> last one is emptytyyyyyyyy
18:17:26  <andythenorth> lawks
18:17:36  <andythenorth> oh I couldn't delete in FS
18:17:51  <andythenorth> I probably fat fingered a comment, and couldn't remove it
18:17:53  <TrueBrain> I like the movie :)
18:17:58  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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18:19:53  <TrueBrain> #6548 suggests there was a change upstream that made neither of the 3 work?
18:21:39  <LordAro> andythenorth: how's that move to github announcement coming along?
18:21:50  <TrueBrain> LordAro: how is coming along?
18:21:52  <TrueBrain> :D
18:22:12  *** muffindrake1 has quit IRC
18:22:30  <LordAro> curl >
18:22:38  <TrueBrain> not really, but a start
18:22:52  <LordAro> :p
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18:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i just totally necro-ed a topic
18:28:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> minor / critical <-- todo/urgent?
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18:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we could classify them into estimates of how much work it would be? <10loc, <100loc, major refactoring, complete redesign?
18:33:52  <Wolf01> Fucks given?
18:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds more like voting :p
18:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so the problem with is that it was not reconfigured to pull from the new repo?
18:37:53  <andythenorth> I would not bother with prio. currently
18:37:56  <andythenorth> it's either getting done, or not
18:38:00  <andythenorth> there's no customer
18:38:10  <andythenorth> management don't need a report :P
18:38:42  * frosch123 assigns 90% of human resources to pango :p
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18:39:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you had some kind of hierarchy you could avoid reading the same 200 issues over and over each time you make a review?
18:39:28  <andythenorth> I think it's easier to just close most of them
18:39:29  <andythenorth> but yes
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18:39:52  <andythenorth> at work I have a redmine milestone for 'not now'
18:40:03  <andythenorth> and anything that's valid but not urgent goes in it
18:40:04  <LordAro> we have a milestone "Later"
18:40:06  <andythenorth> then we ignore it
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18:40:15  <frosch123> so, which docs should be on wiki, and which on github?
18:40:17  <andythenorth> there's always other high prio. things to do
18:40:27  <andythenorth>
18:40:29  <frosch123> coding style vs contributning etc?
18:40:41  <andythenorth> code style benefits little from being in wiki
18:40:46  <LordAro> frosch123: given we have an actual wiki, i wouldn't bother using GH wiki
18:40:57  <andythenorth> if you have power to enforce code style, you have power to commit
18:41:09  <frosch123> yes, but should contributing contain anything, or links to wiki?
18:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you might want to consider doing a thing from the not-now package even though there's higher priority stuff going on, one per day
18:41:24  <LordAro> some sort of cut down version of the wiki page, probably
18:41:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: plausible yes
18:41:32  <LordAro> and also explaining rebasing and where issues are
18:41:38  <andythenorth> I would link the wiki to GH
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18:41:42  <andythenorth> rather than vice versa
18:41:53  <andythenorth> might be taste though, I find the wiki hard to read
18:41:57  <andythenorth> YMMV
18:42:36  <andythenorth> I also always systematically distrust wikis
18:42:39  <andythenorth> because wiki
18:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i now have successfully made a local clone of openttd
18:43:20  <andythenorth> \o/
18:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in a directory called "trunk"... :p
18:45:47  <andythenorth> not sure I understand this one
18:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like "if you switch from population to name, also switch from descending to ascending"
18:49:13  <andythenorth> oh so it specifies a sort order per field
18:49:14  <andythenorth> ok
18:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, however, whether that is just a "fix MY usecase" change, or if it's a change beneficial to the general public
18:49:19  <andythenorth> [shrug]
18:49:44  <andythenorth> all UI stuff with binary choices, unless there's an obvious 'better', don't touch it
18:49:57  <andythenorth> changing it for 1 patcher might piss off 999 players
18:50:15  <andythenorth> it's taste, not aesthetics
18:51:32  <Alberth> I initially implemented it inconsistent, as it made the most sense, but it was changed to something consistent later
18:52:31  <andythenorth> :)
18:53:10  <Alberth> names alphabetically starting at A, population starting with the highest value
18:53:13  <peter1138> So many commits.
18:53:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: shall we just declare subtypes 'not getting fixed'?
18:53:23  <andythenorth> and
18:53:25  <peter1138> I really should've gone out on the bicycle. I could've been back by now.
18:53:34  <andythenorth> they are total heart sink when I read 'livery' issues
18:53:36  <peter1138> (If I'd've liked a short ride)
18:53:45  <andythenorth> still light here peter1138 :P
18:53:50  <andythenorth> and not even very cold
18:53:53  <peter1138> Didn't I have a patch for subtypes for somethin?
18:54:05  <andythenorth> probably lost
18:54:12  <peter1138> No, I have a backup.
18:54:12  <andythenorth> subtypes are a raging disaster
18:54:21  <andythenorth> they should be sacked, but eh
18:54:34  <peter1138> They were fine but we extended things in a different direction.
18:54:43  <andythenorth> I find them a bit depressing :D
18:54:51  <andythenorth> they don't work as expected
18:54:57  <andythenorth> they don't work with auto-replace
18:55:02  <andythenorth> they don't work with auto-refit
18:55:11  <peter1138> Which ttdpatch didn't have.
18:55:14  <andythenorth> they aren't liveries, but they're described as such
18:55:41  <andythenorth> oh so we built a roundhole for a perfectly good square peg? o_O
18:56:02  <peter1138> :D
18:56:05  <andythenorth> shoulda just done 'livery labels'
18:56:07  <andythenorth> imagine the fun
18:56:11  <andythenorth> days of wiki drama
18:56:25  <andythenorth> BNSF will overlap with something no doubt
18:56:42  <peter1138> Basically there's no point to them now that we have unlimited* vehicle types.
18:56:55  <andythenorth> I use them for cargo capacity refits on ships
18:57:12  <andythenorth> they're a bit broken, but it's the least worst way to vary capacity by +/-10%
18:57:37  <andythenorth> let's do livery labels :)
18:57:47  <andythenorth> and a UI where livery can be set per vehicle
18:58:08  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of "unlimited*" vehicle types, the vehicle list needs a text filter :p
18:58:18  <peter1138> I welcome your patch.
18:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that yesterday while scrolling through the CETS vehicle list :p
18:58:28  <peter1138> Or rather, I welcome your PR.
18:58:44  <peter1138> Or feature request on github :D
18:58:45  <andythenorth> PR is something quite different in my house
18:58:52  <andythenorth> I am married to a doctor
18:58:59  <andythenorth> it involves gloves
18:59:26  <frosch123> are you the training subject?
18:59:32  <andythenorth> nope
18:59:38  <frosch123> lucky :)
19:00:48  <andythenorth> can we reduce some more of the Very Important 276 open issues :P
19:00:50  <peter1138> I reckon for roadtypes we should first add a load of hardcoded types to the game...
19:00:51  <andythenorth> before adding more
19:00:56  <peter1138> Then bodge newgrf stuff on later
19:01:02  <peter1138> Bit like airports
19:01:15  <andythenorth> HWY?
19:01:17  <LordAro> because that worked out so well :p
19:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: we haven't even managed to put trams into the default vehicle set
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19:04:53  <Wolf01> Stop making peer reset your connection
19:06:38  <peter1138> :p
19:06:46  <peter1138> But really
19:07:14  <peter1138> merge, merge, sync, sync, merge , merge, change, merge, sync, fix, fix, merge, comment, merge, merge
19:07:30  <Wolf01> Sorry about that :(
19:07:38  <LordAro> sounds like a rebase will go most of the way to fixing it :p
19:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: problem with that line of thought is that the more you add to the default game, the more difficult you make it for NewGRF authors to remove default stuff and replace it with their own ideas
19:07:52  <peter1138> Oh, that "fix, fix" was the same commit but with different hashes in different branches
19:08:05  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, sorry, should I have used /s ?
19:08:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's fine, i just wanted to clarify that :p
19:09:03  <andythenorth> not sure what this even merges
19:09:30  <peter1138> heh
19:09:59  <peter1138> Maybe I should've kept that single-commit version and broken it up.
19:10:21  <peter1138> I used to rewrite all my patches several times.
19:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and then still not commit them :p
19:10:39  <peter1138> That too.
19:10:49  <peter1138> Once the goal is complete it's easier to see what needs to be changed;.
19:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah that is pretty normal
19:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> once you know what you're actually trying to do, you can start over and do it properly
19:11:35  <peter1138> Exactly.
19:11:48  <peter1138> Only issue is I'm not familiar with this code.
19:13:01  <peter1138> Oh, I did keep the diff. Hmm.
19:13:38  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: want to do the NoAI ones? o_O
19:14:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I amgoing through al the pages currently
19:14:04  <TrueBrain> I am at page 4
19:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's one missing there, pikka wanted to place semaphore signals
19:15:20  <andythenorth> 'all open' TrueBrain?
19:15:26  <TrueBrain> yes
19:15:33  <andythenorth> k
19:15:42  <TrueBrain> minus the patches
19:15:47  <TrueBrain> I really need to sit down for patches
19:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you do this now standing up? :p
19:16:20  <andythenorth> I was :P
19:16:35  <andythenorth> am I missing the 'next issue' link in Github?
19:16:52  *** triolus has joined #openttd
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19:18:26  <triolus> hello. I'm looking to start a new openttd game and would like to go for a more 'model train' appearance rather than massive junctions/networks. I've never used newgrfs, so could you recommend some that would suit what I'm going for?
19:18:26  <TrueBrain> #6501 ... sounds that works as intended .. need to check code :(
19:19:59  <andythenorth> it's another potato / potato issue
19:20:03  <andythenorth> and it's minor
19:20:12  <andythenorth> and conditional orders don't really work anyway
19:20:26  <andythenorth> changing that will just produce another ticket 'change it back'
19:21:14  <supermop_work> triolus: what region do you wish to model
19:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> triolus: large map with sparse towns/industries (so you have space for nice layouts), pick a region/country and there's probably a NewGRF vehicle set for that
19:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> triolus: also things you might want to consider are a patchpack with "daylength" option, and industry sets
19:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> fill all remaining slots with station and eyecandy object sets :)
19:24:20  <triolus> I'm going with the sub artic, so the PNW would be nice. Canada maybe
19:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> then NARS is probably for you
19:24:55  <Alberth> play 64x64  no room for anything massive
19:26:00  <Alberth> the screenshot forum is full with grf lists, have a browse there
19:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "you have this 2x3m room, now build a nice H0 gauge layout"?
19:26:22  <andythenorth> get NARS 2
19:26:23  <Alberth> better make it road only :p
19:26:56  <Alberth> I once played firs at 64x64, it was packed with industry, no room for rails :p
19:26:57  * andythenorth waits for TrueBrain to get to 6416
19:27:00  <triolus> the NARS trains look nice. kinda what I'm going for. what would be good for stations, objects, and road vehicles?
19:27:34  <triolus> nm, it has a road vehicle one =) awesome
19:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> also pick a ship and plane set :)
19:28:14  <andythenorth> triolus: industrial stations
19:28:17  <andythenorth> (ISR)
19:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i use ISR for industries, NewStations for passengers
19:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Chips might also be useful, if you use FIRS as industry set
19:29:03  <triolus> yea, ships are important. gonna do a 55-60% water map to get nice islands
19:29:36  <andythenorth> there are no good ship sets
19:29:45  <andythenorth> I'm working on that :P
19:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a "North American City Set" for houses, but i'm not sure how good that really is
19:30:33  <Wolf01> We should really make andythenorth a curator, review grf lists, and a "download this preset" in game
19:30:43  <andythenorth> ugh no
19:30:52  <LordAro> haha
19:30:56  <andythenorth> that's a horrible idea
19:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a terrible idea :p
19:31:02  <andythenorth> what eddi said
19:31:30  <andythenorth> if I liked grfs, I wouldn't be making my own
19:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "here we have this person who can't make up his mind and decides the opposite every few days, let's make him the authority on what is good"
19:32:09  <Wolf01> Yes
19:32:22  <supermop_work> andythenorth's curated grf set for 2018 (contains 0 grfs)
19:32:52  <supermop_work> do you still have your tuk tuk?
19:32:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: or we could do what most other authors do
19:32:58  <andythenorth> and ship the first lame idea they have :P
19:33:04  <andythenorth> then stick rigidly to it
19:33:10  <triolus> how is FISH?
19:33:15  <andythenorth> supermop_work: kinda, but not in my posession directly
19:33:21  <andythenorth> triolus: rubbish :)
19:33:40  <triolus> andythenorth: lol
19:33:47  <andythenorth> Squid is a bit better
19:33:56  <supermop_work> i am trying to get my company to buy an old citroen corrugated van
19:33:58  <andythenorth> Michael's NewShips is nice, but not very big set
19:34:11  <andythenorth> supermop_work: the silver ones?
19:34:17  <supermop_work> for marketing/pop up food truck use
19:34:19  <andythenorth> they usually get turned into artisan food trucks
19:34:20  <andythenorth> yes
19:34:29  <andythenorth> those and three-wheelers
19:34:32  <supermop_work> yeah, not sure if we'd paint or wrap it
19:34:49  <supermop_work> three wheelers are tougher here
19:35:00  <andythenorth> there is some US company makes utility three wheelers
19:35:02  <supermop_work> hard to convince whatever state that they are legal
19:35:04  <andythenorth> more common than I expected
19:35:08  <TrueBrain> enhancement requests which only state a solution .. *close*
19:35:10  <andythenorth> I saw a Bajaj in Austin
19:35:14  <andythenorth> I'll find a picture
19:35:17  <supermop_work> the little piaggi ones are very rare here
19:35:20  <Wolf01> I'm trying to convince my boss to hire an osteopath/psychologist/lawyer
19:35:40  <supermop_work> they are usually just decorative garage queens, not street registered
19:36:04  <supermop_work> i want a tiny korean clone of tiny japanese truck
19:36:07  <Wolf01> We have any sort of problem on my company
19:36:11  <supermop_work> but too small for food
19:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> have a picture? i'm having a hard time imagining what you're talking about
19:36:58  <peter1138> /home/petern/Projects/OpenTTD/src/station_cmd.cpp:2954:12: warning: variable ‘catenary_bits’ set but not used [-Wunused-but-set-variable]
19:37:01  <peter1138> Hmm :S
19:37:29  <andythenorth> supermop_work: and
19:37:40  <andythenorth> it's a 4-stroke petrol, not as powerful or large as mine
19:37:44  <andythenorth> Austin TX
19:37:51  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: #6416 was easy
19:38:10  <andythenorth> I wrote an essay
19:38:19  <triolus> so I'm also gonna take aviator aircraft, unless someone knows better.
19:38:19  <TrueBrain> I ignored it
19:40:37  <andythenorth> supermop_work: Cushman Haulster
19:41:12  <supermop_work> nice
19:41:34  <supermop_work> ive seen some people withsurplus ex-police meter maids
19:45:28  <andythenorth> 269
19:45:33  *** Alberth has left #openttd
19:45:35  <andythenorth> 100 less then 24 hours ago
19:45:53  <TrueBrain> #6398 is tricky .. really a bug, really no simple solution
19:46:10  <TrueBrain> do we keep bugs around that have as resolution: when-ever-bananas-is-rewritten
19:46:58  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I asked you a question in that ticket :D I really do not know ..
19:47:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: which ticket? o_O
19:48:01  <TrueBrain> the one I linked you in, and talked about 1 minute before I wrote that? :P
19:48:06  * peter1138 tests is compiles
19:48:09  <peter1138> *it
19:49:05  <andythenorth> closed it TrueBrain
19:49:14  <peter1138> Ah, same error with plain NRT.
19:49:36  * peter1138 rebases, foolishly.
19:50:35  <peter1138> Oh, it hangs :p
19:52:14  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ok I read some more bugs, it might be time to hide some away in 'not now' project?
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19:52:41  <andythenorth> that might equal 'closed' in reality, but eh, it seems neater
19:53:21  <TrueBrain> example?
19:53:50  <andythenorth>
19:53:58  <andythenorth>
19:54:05  <andythenorth> yeah they're bugs
19:54:12  <andythenorth> but literally no kittens die
19:54:20  <andythenorth> there's quality, and then there's quality
19:54:47  <andythenorth> maybe call a project "No Dead Kittens"
19:55:14  <TrueBrain> 6167 sounds like a simple fix, but it is gold plating
19:55:24  <TrueBrain> still, hiding them away is not helping either
19:55:35  <TrueBrain> (as hiding is the same as closing)
19:55:42  <andythenorth> so let's close some
19:55:45  <TrueBrain> but it is why I mentioned a label for priority (or severity maybe)
19:55:46  <andythenorth> (some more)
19:55:55  <TrueBrain> lets not close for the fact of closing please
19:56:04  <TrueBrain> like 6167, I see no reason to close it
19:56:08  <andythenorth> well the main thing is to be able to focus, so maybe it is a label
19:56:11  <TrueBrain> just I would love to mark it as: minor
19:56:24  <TrueBrain> but as you said earlier .. lets do priority later :)
19:56:38  <andythenorth> ok
19:56:41  <andythenorth> onwards
19:57:41  <TrueBrain> and I was serious yesterdy: lets not second guess eachother; if I or you marked it as: keep (by removing the "from Flyspray"), lets not revisit it and challenge it again :) We have too many to look through ;)
19:57:43  <andythenorth> this is surely nonsense?
19:57:48  <TrueBrain> (on that note, reopening #6253 :D)
19:58:09  <andythenorth> ok
19:58:49  <TrueBrain> what was nonsense btw?
19:58:54  <andythenorth>
19:59:08  <andythenorth> "I block my train in with signals, and then it is blocked"
19:59:29  <TrueBrain> signals are the wrong way :)
20:00:35  <LordAro> i think the actual issue is that it stops dead and doesn't (try to) reverse
20:00:49  <TrueBrain> do trains otherwise?
20:00:53  <TrueBrain> and they do after some time, he writes
20:00:54  <andythenorth> I have verified the issue
20:01:01  <peter1138> Depends on the settings.
20:01:09  <andythenorth> what else is supposed to happen?
20:01:12  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: verified what?
20:01:24  <andythenorth> I can stop the train by building 1 way signals over it
20:01:30  <andythenorth> so signals work correctly
20:01:34  <andythenorth> trains work correctly
20:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should trigger a "train reverses at end of line" event
20:02:29  <andythenorth> it has to be on signal density 1 to trigger it
20:02:34  <andythenorth> (trigger the stop)
20:02:44  <TrueBrain> owh, no, it is a bug
20:02:48  <TrueBrain> lol
20:02:50  <TrueBrain> this is funny
20:02:52  <TrueBrain> ish
20:03:07  <TrueBrain> make rail, put a one-way signal on it, make train go
20:03:10  <TrueBrain> it will ignore the signal
20:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's fine if a train ignores a signal it already passed with the front engine
20:04:01  <peter1138> ^ Yeah
20:04:08  <andythenorth> ""
20:04:12  <andythenorth> oops bad paste
20:04:13  <TrueBrain> it always ignores it
20:04:15  <andythenorth> " But the problem is that they shouldn't stop in the first place."
20:04:25  <TrueBrain> owh, it depends on the signal type
20:04:26  <TrueBrain> lol
20:04:37  <andythenorth> I don't get it
20:04:37  <andythenorth> trains should *definitely* stop on one-way signals
20:04:38  <andythenorth> they should *not* drive through them
20:04:52  <andythenorth> I don't understand any proposed solution
20:05:09  <TrueBrain> ah, PBS are ignore if they are the wrong way
20:05:14  <TrueBrain> trains do reverse immediatly
20:05:32  <andythenorth> not if you set signal density to 1, or sometimes 2
20:05:43  <andythenorth> they stop, waiting path
20:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the bug report says must be at least 2 signals to trigger
20:06:00  <andythenorth> but he doesn't want reverse
20:06:05  <andythenorth> "Besides, current behaviour is not "elegant" ('reverse_at_signals' is just a workaround)."
20:06:11  <andythenorth> so wtf is supposed to happen?
20:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "reverse_at_signals" is for waiting too long at red signals
20:06:22  <andythenorth> one way signals only work telepathically?
20:06:23  <TrueBrain> okay, behaviour really is a bit wonky
20:06:37  <andythenorth> it's a bug eh TB?
20:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> this is "reverses at end of line", which it should do
20:07:06  <TrueBrain> train on track, place one-way far in front of it, when it hits it, it IMMEDIATLY reverses, goes back to depot, won't come out of depot (no free path)
20:07:17  <TrueBrain> train on track, place one way DIRECTLY in front of it, train stops, waiting for path
20:07:36  <peter1138> andythenorth, well reverse is correct. Waiting ages maybe, maybe not.
20:07:40  <TrueBrain> reversing the signals unstucks it
20:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a bug in path reservation?
20:08:34  <andythenorth> I've labelled it bug
20:08:45  <TrueBrain> and triage :)
20:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we once had a bigger discussion about whether back of a one-way signal should be considered "safe waiting location"
20:08:56  <andythenorth> k
20:08:59  <peter1138> dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer
20:09:06  <peter1138> How do I get it to tell me what string?
20:09:29  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, no it's not.
20:09:32  <TrueBrain> right, page 6 then
20:10:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's not, it may cause stuck trains like that
20:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> because it can't reserve a path it won't move, but because it won't move it can't reach the end of the line to reverse
20:10:34  <peter1138> andythenorth, where do I find an NRT newgrf?
20:10:34  <TrueBrain> wow, #6337 is a stupid bug :p
20:10:54  <andythenorth> peter1138:
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20:11:31  <peter1138> snow/rainforest was broken ever since TGP
20:11:44  <andythenorth> isn't it
20:11:53  <andythenorth> and tropic map gen
20:11:55  <andythenorth> is awful
20:11:56  <glx> <supermop_work> i am trying to get my company to buy an old citroen corrugated van <-- a type H (also know as TUB here) ?
20:12:10  <peter1138> more height levels just makes the problem more visible
20:12:18  <peter1138> i have some patches somewhere.. ;(
20:12:31  *** Stimrol has quit IRC
20:12:55  <andythenorth>
20:13:32  <andythenorth> whatever TGP thinks it's doing in the sub-tropic, it doesn't
20:13:39  <triolus> well, I think these newgrfs will be fun. thanks everyone. I'm gonna try to setup a server with them now =)
20:14:16  <peter1138> andythenorth, is it meant to have toolbar sprites?
20:14:25  <andythenorth> yes, there is one new one
20:14:35  <andythenorth> for light rail construction
20:15:00  <peter1138> Hmm, I have no trams at all.
20:15:23  <TrueBrain> holy moly, if #6230 is really the fix for the problem .. silly little patch :D
20:15:31  <andythenorth> peter1138: sprite 178 or so in openttdgui.png is the sprite
20:15:43  <peter1138> andythenorth, no, i mean hogs
20:15:53  <Wolf01> peter1138
20:15:57  <andythenorth> no trams :o
20:17:43  <TrueBrain> the patch in #6211 feels weird ... it adds new functions, but n othing calls it?
20:18:04  <andythenorth> close it?
20:18:40  <andythenorth> can always re-open later
20:18:41  <peter1138> Hmm, I need more than 4GB RAM in my VM :p
20:18:49  <andythenorth> lots of bugs to triage, let's not add more new ones
20:18:52  <andythenorth> well, except NRT :P
20:19:18  <peter1138> Usual issue of mouse warping not working too, so scrolling is bad.
20:19:46  <TrueBrain> owh, I get what he tried to do .. he only added the command so it could be shown on websites
20:19:49  <TrueBrain> not ingame
20:20:12  <andythenorth> btw I get trams in tip of NRT fork, with Hog
20:20:28  <andythenorth> FWIW :
20:20:29  <andythenorth> :P
20:20:48  <peter1138> I have trams in the vehicle list.
20:20:58  <peter1138> Oh. Right.
20:21:00  <peter1138> Broken tool bar :p
20:21:33  <Wolf01> Good, I fixed that 3 times already
20:21:52  <peter1138> Yeah, it's the pesky openttd.grf
20:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't it rebuild openttd.grf automatically?
20:23:06  <LordAro> if grfcodec is available
20:23:26  <TrueBrain> frosch123: do I understand you correctly, and in a "closed, works as intended"?
20:23:40  <peter1138> It didn't realise it needed to.
20:23:45  <peter1138> Hmm, so, 5 sprites missing.
20:24:27  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: 6207 is 'working as intended' but I think it shouldn't be silent
20:24:38  <TrueBrain> so the bug is the silent part?
20:24:52  <andythenorth> well
20:25:03  <andythenorth> do you want 400 'failed to renew' red boxes? o_O
20:25:11  <andythenorth> you / me / anyone /s
20:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> making it non-silent is probably easier than rewriting autorenew
20:25:23  <andythenorth> it could go to news log
20:25:28  <TrueBrain> so on the known-bugs list?
20:25:32  <andythenorth> I think so
20:25:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: autorenew!=autoreplace
20:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> also, this is autorenew, there's no real reason why it would need to fail
20:25:57  <frosch123> autoreplace works as intended, autorenew can be improved
20:26:26  <andythenorth> there's a related issue
20:26:48  <andythenorth> related because it's a similar error message needed, not similar cause
20:26:49  <frosch123> i would keep the issue open
20:27:11  <frosch123> it's a corner case, but there is an obvious fix
20:27:18  <andythenorth> I've linked 6207 and 5776
20:27:27  <andythenorth> I think they need to be open
20:27:30  <frosch123> mark it as "good first issue" :p
20:27:31  <andythenorth> both have caught me out
20:27:43  <andythenorth> I did a whole newgrf with mixed-cargo articulated vehicles
20:27:47  <andythenorth> then found they don't work :P
20:27:50  <TrueBrain> frosch123: go for it :)
20:28:01  <TrueBrain> but please reiterate first what is left of the ticket, as it was non-obvious to me
20:28:12  <frosch123> only thing with the issue is that there are so many bollocks comments, so it is hard to understand :)
20:28:19  <frosch123> ^^
20:28:45  <andythenorth> we can delete some honestly
20:28:55  <TrueBrain> I did the topic and labels, but I would love a comment from you summarizing it :) Tnx frosch123!
20:29:16  <TrueBrain> I am very tempted to classify #6193 as a security bug
20:29:27  <TrueBrain> I have to look through the code first, but .. I forgot we did that :D
20:29:33  <peter1138> Hmm, it's the new version number that is apparently too long.
20:29:57  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I wondered about 6193 :D
20:30:33  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD has too many folders to store savegames :P
20:30:41  <TrueBrain> very few games give this flexibility :)
20:30:46  <peter1138> "20180412--g6ac07902M"
20:30:59  <LordAro> peter1138: see open PR
20:31:30  <andythenorth> this got merged :) \o/
20:31:42  <andythenorth> commits that aren't translations or just frosch :D
20:31:55  <andythenorth> 'just frosch' sounds bad :P didn't mean to
20:32:22  <peter1138> LordAro, that doesn't appear to address it being too long?
20:32:30  <LordAro> true
20:32:34  <peter1138> It's also missing my branch. I'm not on master.
20:32:36  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: #6189, that sounds like a bug to me; the patch is in another ticket. Your comment seems in the wrong issue?
20:32:51  <andythenorth> I deny it
20:32:52  <Wolf01> Wow 262 issues, 60 less(fewer?) than yesterday
20:32:52  <andythenorth> all of it
20:32:59  <andythenorth> Wolf01: 100 less
20:33:04  <Wolf01> Really?
20:33:20  <TrueBrain> yeah, reads to me that you flipped your responses :)
20:33:49  <frosch123> <- better?
20:33:52  <TrueBrain> your comment confuses me more than the topic :D Lol
20:34:06  <andythenorth> well
20:34:17  <andythenorth> 3298 put his patch for on
20:34:19  <TrueBrain> tnx frosch123 :)
20:34:21  <andythenorth> as part of another patch
20:34:32  <TrueBrain> but I dont see why you suggest closing it, but owh no, leaving it open
20:34:34  <TrueBrain> it is confusing!
20:34:35  <TrueBrain> :D
20:34:36  <peter1138> Ah, cos I'm in the middle of a rebase, most likely.
20:35:04  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: file it under "andy was wrong"
20:35:05  <andythenorth> happens
20:35:12  <TrueBrain> no, I was trying to understand you :)
20:35:17  <andythenorth> so am I :P
20:35:17  <TrueBrain> I assumed you had reasoning behind it :)
20:35:26  <andythenorth> sometimes it's like being a passenger watching :P
20:35:45  <andythenorth> we have accidentally driven 3298 away
20:35:46  <TrueBrain> so, I altered your comment than :)
20:35:58  <andythenorth> so eh, is his patch ticket dead or legit?  I'm confused :P
20:36:11  <andythenorth> ok
20:36:14  <andythenorth> solved
20:36:14  <TrueBrain> Reload #6189 :)
20:36:16  *** debdog has quit IRC
20:36:48  <andythenorth> yup
20:37:14  <TrueBrain> its really nice: I think we should close the ticket, I closed the ticket, I left it open, IN A SINGLE SENTENCE :D
20:37:16  <TrueBrain> <3
20:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> on #6193, it should probably prevented to cd into anything that is none of the Readme section 4.1 paths
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20:37:44  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the ticket is the place to leave these comments :)
20:37:56  <peter1138> He'd need a github account though.
20:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> not quite there yet
20:38:29  <TrueBrain> what is the saying .. either put up or shut up?
20:39:40  <TrueBrain> lol @ 6177 .. "very bad" .. "required" .. tempted to close the issue just for that :D
20:41:48  <Wolf01> You could have replied "there are grfs for that"
20:42:01  <TrueBrain> please do add that, if that is the case :)
20:42:25  <peter1138> Hmm, so missing graphics. But there were no conflicts. What do I need to do :p
20:42:42  <peter1138> Wolf01, tell me :D
20:43:07  <Wolf01> Does it work or what?
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20:43:43  <TrueBrain> why did the game get so many buttons .. omg ..
20:43:48  <TrueBrain> so much bloat!
20:43:50  <TrueBrain> :P
20:43:59  <Wolf01> I'm trying to add more!
20:44:43  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I really think I've lost the branch for the new game UI
20:44:50  <Wolf01> The one with tabs
20:45:01  <TrueBrain> I FOUND AN ISSUE WHICH andythenorth CAN MAKE A PULL REQUEST FOR! :D \o/ \o/
20:45:04  <TrueBrain> that makes me happy :)
20:45:06  <Wolf01> Stupid unpublished branch
20:45:21  <TrueBrain> in git, always push to your fork
20:45:30  <TrueBrain> even if you are not planning to make a pull request out of it
20:45:42  <TrueBrain> if you lost it recently, 'git reflog' can be your friend
20:45:45  <Wolf01> I don't plan to make a PR out of anything I do
20:45:45  <peter1138> Wolf01, oh... yes. It's opengfx actually missing graphics.
20:45:54  <peter1138> Have now installed the correct graphics.
20:46:06  <TrueBrain> reflog shows all your recent actions, and in front the hash to go back to how things were before that action
20:46:10  <TrueBrain> (or after that action?)
20:46:13  <TrueBrain> well, either way :P
20:46:43  <TrueBrain> after the action
20:46:59  <TrueBrain> (in git, nothing is really lost, unless the garbage collector was triggered)
20:47:12  <peter1138> Mm
20:48:11  <peter1138> < worst idea ever ;p
20:48:45  <andythenorth> nice
20:49:03  <peter1138> No merging, no fixing intermediate stuff...
20:49:29  <peter1138> Now I need to read through it all and understand how to stage it.
20:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> split into hunks and then combine hunks as you go?
20:50:43  <TrueBrain> ugh, hotkeys ... what to do with them ...
20:50:50  <andythenorth> make a project?
20:50:58  <andythenorth> make a new issue listing all hotkey ponies?
20:51:00  <peter1138> What's up with hotkeys?
20:51:02  <andythenorth> get LordAro to do it?
20:51:04  <andythenorth> peter1138: 'moar'
20:51:09  <andythenorth> and non-ascii
20:51:15  <TrueBrain> basically, it should be: hotkeys need a revamp
20:51:24  <andythenorth> NotHotKeys
20:51:38  <peter1138> NoHK
20:51:59  <andythenorth> NotHot
20:52:06  <andythenorth> probably easily misunderstood :P
20:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and a GUI for configuring them
20:52:13  <andythenorth> there is a GUI
20:52:16  <andythenorth> it's my text editor
20:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that's far outside any reasonable definition of GUI :p
20:53:06  <TrueBrain> hotkeys for volume .. that is just too silly
20:53:15  <TrueBrain> no, NoHo
20:53:19  <TrueBrain> that is much more in line :)
20:53:32  <andythenorth> also open to misunderstanding
20:53:35  <andythenorth> wilful or otherwise
20:54:58  <andythenorth> I reckon it's hard to get <250
20:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> not without starting to actually solve any problems :p
20:57:21  <andythenorth> I am about to close as TMWFTLB unless anyone has a cunning plan to solve it
20:57:53  <peter1138> Let me come up with plan to fix it, in the 2 seconds it'll take you to close it.
20:58:01  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is in 32bpp by default these days? (for Windows)
20:58:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: I am slow typing today
20:58:16  <peter1138> andythenorth, not, TMWFTLB, imho it just should be random.
20:58:17  <andythenorth> you have 30s
20:58:28  <andythenorth> how do you show layout for random?
20:58:45  <andythenorth> oh you mean "you don't"
20:58:47  <peter1138> No need to.
20:58:49  <andythenorth> +1
21:00:32  <peter1138> RoadNoLevelCrossing() < empty comment
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21:03:00  <peter1138> What does that function do?
21:04:05  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the competitive people have various hotkey stuff in their fork
21:04:35  <TrueBrain> but VOLUME? :)
21:04:43  <TrueBrain> that is more for your OS :)
21:04:49  <andythenorth> peter1138: is that the one that forbids level crossings?
21:04:53  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, 32bpp is default for win, since win8 or so
21:05:01  <peter1138> Yeah, figured it out.
21:05:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: cool; closes ticket :)
21:05:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: nah, not volume, but they have more weird keys and more hotkeys for various building tools
21:05:27  <andythenorth> peter1138:
21:05:44  <andythenorth> 256
21:05:49  <TrueBrain> that is it, we are done
21:05:51  <TrueBrain> :P
21:05:54  <andythenorth> magic number
21:06:06  <andythenorth> now pick top 100, put em in a project
21:06:10  <andythenorth> 'stuff'
21:06:54  <TrueBrain> awh, 255 :(
21:06:57  <andythenorth> it makes it all a bit project-managed though eh?
21:07:14  <andythenorth> "no this is what management wants you working on, thanks bai"
21:08:04  <Wolf01> Aaaaaand... 'night... I won't be here for the entire weekend (lego stuff) :P
21:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i wish i had a GitHub account right now to open a ticket and make TrueBrain happy again :/
21:08:25  <andythenorth> 255 is a nice number too
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21:08:29  <TrueBrain> please, don't create lies Eddi|zuHause
21:08:31  <TrueBrain> :P
21:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that is the only thing the internet is good at, create and spread lies?
21:09:37  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: toss a coin please
21:09:43  <andythenorth> heads
21:09:51  <TrueBrain> shit, I had to think about heads or tails before I asked
21:09:55  <TrueBrain> okay, again
21:10:02  <andythenorth> didn't you just
21:10:02  <andythenorth> call
21:10:12  <TrueBrain> yes .. I am weird
21:10:12  <andythenorth> heads again
21:10:17  <TrueBrain> okay, ticket stays open :)
21:10:20  <TrueBrain> (5596)
21:10:20  <andythenorth> this is dead I think
21:10:42  <TrueBrain> no, it is not; 5596 is silly
21:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't think of heads or tails, just throw twice and pick same or different :p
21:11:30  <andythenorth> is long closed? o_O
21:11:46  <TrueBrain> 5996
21:11:49  <TrueBrain> I have to learn to read
21:11:50  <TrueBrain> sorry :D
21:12:05  <andythenorth> I am +1 to closing that
21:12:16  <andythenorth> shell doesn't report success, only error
21:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> low hamming distance, could have happened to anyone :p
21:12:36  <TrueBrain> shell is a very bad example for the audiance, but that was not my reasoning :D
21:12:38  <TrueBrain> but closed it already :)
21:12:44  <andythenorth> next
21:13:37  <TrueBrain> wow, 5934 is tricky
21:14:14  <andythenorth> tarpit
21:14:35  <TrueBrain> problem is a bit, the request seems valid, and then the topic sinks in a technical talk about a single solution
21:14:39  <TrueBrain> that confuses me :D
21:14:57  <andythenorth> not winnable in current form
21:15:05  <andythenorth> nobody's going to pull that and get it done
21:15:22  <andythenorth> also 4 years
21:16:34  <TrueBrain> ugh, okay
21:18:12  <TrueBrain> quiet a few fixes are ready to be applied; just need to be dusted off :)
21:18:38  <TrueBrain> take 5977
21:18:48  <TrueBrain> includes a fix and everything
21:19:02  <andythenorth> yes
21:19:15  <andythenorth> I tested most of 3298's groups fixes
21:19:20  <andythenorth> not sure if I got them all
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21:20:00  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: #5958 .. you are good at those OSX shit
21:20:09  <andythenorth> yeah I am he
21:20:12  <andythenorth> the best
21:20:33  <andythenorth> what does it all mean? :o
21:21:02  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:23:57  <TrueBrain> CLOSE IT andythenorth! JUST DO IT! :P
21:24:00  <TrueBrain> (old OSX, I guess)
21:24:23  <andythenorth> I don't understand it
21:24:37  <TrueBrain> trackpad doesnt work, stopped reading after that :P
21:24:57  <andythenorth> I think pinch is supposed to work even when mousewheel scrolls
21:24:59  <andythenorth> [shrug]
21:26:14  <andythenorth> closed
21:26:50  <TrueBrain> so 1 more today ..
21:27:12  <andythenorth> 6061 is nice
21:27:28  <andythenorth> keep it, rename it 'town trolls landscape'
21:27:41  <andythenorth> trolling AI needed :P
21:28:42  <TrueBrain> okay, that was weird ... my firealarm went off, but none of the sensors detected an issue
21:28:52  <TrueBrain> they cycled for a few times, and went quiet
21:28:56  <andythenorth> spooky
21:29:12  <andythenorth> magnetic bees nearby?
21:31:02  <peter1138> Herp
21:31:29  <andythenorth> plate tectonics GS idea
21:31:34  <andythenorth> 4096x4096 map
21:31:40  <andythenorth> 64x64 island
21:31:51  <andythenorth> GS moves the island 16 tiles every year
21:32:00  <andythenorth> destroying your stuff
21:32:18  <peter1138> o_O
21:32:58  <andythenorth>
21:37:35  <TrueBrain> there
21:37:36  <TrueBrain> 250
21:37:56  <TrueBrain> enough for the day
21:37:57  <TrueBrain> night!
21:38:12  <TrueBrain> nice work on issues today andythenorth :)
21:38:19  <andythenorth> 250 :)
21:38:23  <andythenorth> ok winning
21:38:40  <andythenorth> night
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21:43:44  <triolus> I got my server up and running at if anyone wants to join
21:46:04  <peter1138> Replocate.
22:01:22  <peter1138> Hmm, roadtype electric?
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22:14:51  <LordAro> hmm
22:15:04  <LordAro> the disadvantage to pango is that it depends on cairo, which depends on glib
22:15:31  <peter1138> Enjoy
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22:17:10  <LordAro> it's not a concern as far as the source goes, but i imagine it'll bloat the dependencies a bit
22:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: roadtype electric is for trolleybusses i assume
22:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (there's also currently some test tracks where trucks drive with catenary on highways)
22:23:40  <peter1138> LordAro, dependencies == someone else already wrote the code.
22:24:11  <LordAro> yeah, but packaging & distributing dependencies isn't exactly the easiest for C++ stufff
22:24:14  <LordAro> -f
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22:26:25  <LordAro> DarkSSHClone: suspicious
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22:33:36  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: minor forum annoyance, the "OpenTTD Graphics" link in the OpenTTD section is a "http" link, and my browser always complains about "leaving secure area", however it is immediately replaced with https again
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22:35:28  <peter1138> The thing warns about insecure content anyway.
22:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you mean?
22:37:48  <peter1138> Mixed http/https resources.
22:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get such messages
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22:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> just this one
22:40:42  <peter1138> Ah, it's avatars in my notification popup.
22:41:00  <peter1138> Most are locally hosted but not all.
22:41:21  *** cHawk has quit IRC
22:41:51  <peter1138> Very old version of jquery in use, though.
22:41:53  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a notification popup?
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22:42:38  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Darkvater
22:42:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (i browse without javascript)
22:43:27  <peter1138> Bloody hell, is that even possible these days?
22:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> not really... it's getting worse every time
22:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but is it worse than sites nagging you about disabling your adblocker? dunno
22:45:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's definitely not worse than fullscreen ads
22:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> sporadically you get sites that are just blank
22:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and for youtube, etc. i use a different browser
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