Log for #openttd on 19th April 2018:
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05:08:17  <peter1138> hello it is morning
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06:00:57  <peter1138> hurr, can't quite get into 32" waist yet
06:03:22  <peter1138> guess i should change the title of TR 6737
06:03:37  <peter1138> *PR
06:04:29  <__ln__> after about a week on github there are already nearly seven thousand pull requests?
06:04:39  <peter1138> yes
06:04:42  <peter1138> OR
06:05:05  <peter1138> we imported all the bugs from flyspray, and issues/PRs use the same numbering.
06:05:15  <peter1138> one of the two.
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06:05:54  <__ln__> that's ingenious
06:06:53  <peter1138> useful to ensure saying #xxx doesn't refer to two things.
06:08:22  <__ln__> were PRs manually created though?
06:08:54  <peter1138> no because there were no PRs with SVN
06:09:33  <peter1138> old patches are linked to flyspray still, i believe.
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06:17:01  <andythenorth> sometimes
06:20:33  <peter1138> always
06:21:06  <V453000> NEVER
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06:24:04  <andythenorth> breakfast
06:24:10  <andythenorth> also not enough sleep
06:24:14  <andythenorth> errors of sleeping
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06:27:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: NARS 3 next o_O
06:28:38  <Pikka> oh no
06:29:30  <Pikka> I only need one train set, something else next ;) I'm sure you've found the same with horses.
06:30:34  <andythenorth> fair point
06:30:41  <andythenorth> but I still play NARS 2 sometimes not Horse
06:30:55  <andythenorth> NA roster in Horse eh
06:32:10  <Pikka> if Dan wants to come back and draw it all, I'll code NARS 3
06:32:48  <andythenorth> he might draw 2x
06:32:53  <andythenorth> I want to draw 1x in Horse
06:33:34  <Pikka> NARS2 sprites as a base?
06:33:38  <andythenorth> ish
06:33:44  <andythenorth> it is interesting to do UK Horse at same time you do UKRS 3
06:33:53  <andythenorth> less pondering, more doing
06:34:55  <Pikka>
06:35:11  <Pikka> OVSB and his carriage-shaped-lump loco aesthetic... it's strangely nice.
06:36:22  <andythenorth> some of those vans are the wrong scale
06:36:27  <andythenorth> 1px too low or high
06:36:40  <andythenorth> and they're all the wrong scale for engine
06:36:51  <andythenorth> OVSB 2 is needed
06:36:57  <andythenorth> 'Renewal'
06:37:02  <Pikka> yes
06:37:07  <Pikka> or some other word beginning with R
06:37:45  <andythenorth> so I have this 'only one obvious engine choice' strategy in Horse
06:38:07  <andythenorth> but after building a freight 4-8-0 for 50 trains
06:38:13  <andythenorth> I'm not 100% convinced
06:38:43  <Pikka> it's nice to try and keep the locos widely seperated in stats
06:39:09  <Pikka> but OTOH it's nice to keep older locos useful so that the player doesn't necessarily autoreplace everything as soon as something new comes out
06:40:13  <andythenorth> agree
06:41:12  <Pikka> I've started filling in the gaps in my 10 locos with a B set, which is filling the roles that didn't quite get filled by the A set, and the C set, which are locos I just want to add...
06:41:17  <Pikka> now it just looks like UKRS2 :P
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06:43:32  <andythenorth> how many?
06:44:20  <Pikka> 33, including the bulleid blob, but I'm not sure I can fit that in.
06:44:25  <Pikka> and I haven't done third rail yet...
06:44:45  <andythenorth> got a list? :D
06:45:41  <V453000> I resorted to 11 vehicles to make the purchase menu simple and easy ... with varying graphics I'm getting something like 100 unique trains again ._.
06:46:10  <V453000> well, 60 at least
06:46:14  <Pikka>
06:46:24  <Pikka> where's the IH roster? :D
06:46:57  <andythenorth>
06:47:26  <V453000> holy shit many wagons :D
06:47:53  <V453000> omg has Slug
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06:48:52  <V453000> it's a nice set andy, one thing I can really appreciate is that all of the vehicles have kind of consistent style as opposed to NUTS where many of them don't even look like they are from the same sety
06:48:55  <V453000> set
06:49:12  <andythenorth> V453000: also not all repainted yet :)
06:49:37  <V453000> I guessed that
06:49:56  * andythenorth counting on fingers
06:50:15  <Pikka> andy: having slow-as-dirt freight wagons helps differentiate the locos, I think
06:50:35  <andythenorth> wagon speed limits innit
06:50:40  <andythenorth> I have 34 RAIL/ELRL
06:50:43  <andythenorth> engines
06:51:14  <andythenorth> the 'roles' idea came from frosch btw
06:51:36  <Pikka> players will only consider the slower freight locos if wagonspeedlimits would mean the faster express locos are wasted
06:51:40  <andythenorth> it wasn't new, but he tested Horse 1 and made suggestions about HP and TE for different roles
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06:52:47  <V453000> from quick counting NUTS seems to have 119 locomotives
06:52:52  <andythenorth> Pikka: although I also have speed limits, the heavy freight engines also have much HP than the express engines for same gen
06:53:12  <andythenorth> pax are fast but gutless
06:53:32  <andythenorth> electric is fast, high HP, but no TE
06:54:05  <Pikka> hmmm
06:59:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: DP2 :P
06:59:26  <andythenorth> sack the deltic :P
06:59:34  * andythenorth is a broken record
06:59:52  <Pikka> because nobody likes deltics :P
07:00:09  <andythenorth> because you can have 110mph at 2700hp
07:00:45  <andythenorth> wiki says 90mph, but obvs. drivers didn't used to stick to speed limits
07:01:17  <Pikka> that's only 120hp more than the 47 though ;)
07:03:00  <andythenorth> you've already drawn the duff eh :P
07:03:05  <andythenorth> I will leave your roster alone
07:03:28  <Pikka> :P
07:04:00  <Pikka> there's always room for more later
07:05:40  <andythenorth> this is why I have 'more rosters to do'
07:05:48  <andythenorth> stops me over-producing one country :D
07:05:57  <andythenorth> speeds:
07:08:43  <Pikka> I've gone high at the top ends, like 110 for the A4s and Deltics... but speed is useful to differentiate locos
07:09:13  <Pikka> like I've limited the 4MT tank to 60, when apparently they could do 90+... it'd just be too useful if it were faster
07:10:25  <andythenorth> you did the class 14 :)
07:11:28  <Pikka> yes :P the 08 in UKRS2 was a bit silly, I'll save that for a station/industry prop.
07:12:02  <andythenorth> gronk has no place
07:13:58  <Pikka> probably need a 67... but later
07:14:03  <andythenorth> I wouldn't :)
07:14:16  <andythenorth> there was one in Horse 1, never used
07:14:27  <Pikka> same in UKRS2, they look nice though
07:14:49  <Pikka> it's in the "if I get bored and draw it" category. GT3? :P
07:14:56  <andythenorth> no
07:14:59  <andythenorth> NARS 3 :)
07:15:15  <andythenorth> QLD narrow guage
07:15:21  <andythenorth> you can re-use the HST
07:15:43  <Pikka> not narrow gauge :P
07:16:29  <andythenorth> just pineapples then
07:17:13  <andythenorth> I have just 145 more trains to draw for UK Horse
07:17:19  <Pikka> o/
07:17:39  <Pikka> I have to draw a tree
07:17:49  <andythenorth> o_O
07:18:14  <Pikka> rather than draw arbitrary wood loads, draw the plantation pine for future forest industries and cut it up ;)
07:22:09  <andythenorth> biabb
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08:00:21  <peter1138> TrueBrain, is it right/okay to change a PR title if the patch changes significantly? PR #6737
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08:02:56  <peter1138> andy andy
08:03:02  <peter1138> Stop quitting!
08:04:40  <andythenorth>  life goes on eh
08:05:00  <andythenorth> and I dislike bouncers
08:06:54  <peter1138> Yeah, they smell.
08:09:08  <andythenorth> ach
08:09:18  <andythenorth> we should be able to reverse articulated vehicles
08:09:24  <peter1138> hehheh
08:09:41  <andythenorth> 'just' map the properties from rear to front
08:10:18  <andythenorth> it's probably bonkers to do that
08:16:42  <peter1138> Yes of course.
08:17:08  <peter1138> TMWFTLB definitely.
08:17:19  <andythenorth> nothing for it, we have to implement liveries :P
08:17:30  <andythenorth> or class 20s all have to be same colour
08:17:36  <andythenorth> choices :P
08:17:38  <peter1138> Now, if it enables underground and elevated pieces, do it.
08:18:14  <andythenorth> how about some kind of broken 'flipped' mode
08:18:20  <andythenorth> so I can set a flag
08:18:27  <andythenorth> and the ctrl-click will flip the flipped bit
08:18:32  <andythenorth> but I have to handle it myself in newgrf
08:19:02  <peter1138> Cargo subtypes ;p
08:19:31  <andythenorth> eugh
08:19:36  <peter1138> Make it random?
08:19:37  <peter1138> Hm
08:19:43  <peter1138> Spec out a new feature?
08:19:44  <andythenorth> or just have one livery
08:20:08  <andythenorth> I wonder if the flipped bit patch is just a one-line 'if'
08:20:14  <andythenorth> and a fork of nml
08:20:25  <andythenorth> maybe I start my own patchpack :x
08:21:05  <peter1138> I don't remember the rationale for disabling it in the first place.
08:21:13  <peter1138> Probably breaks a couple of sets or something :p
08:21:15  <andythenorth> probably vehicle lengths and stuff
08:21:36  <peter1138> That's not feature of articulated parts though
08:21:40  <andythenorth> hmm
08:21:43  <andythenorth> dunno
08:21:58  <andythenorth> if you have articulated A-B-C
08:22:04  <andythenorth> and you need A to show graphics for C
08:22:08  <andythenorth> isn't that bonkers?
08:22:23  <andythenorth> it's trivial in newgrf, but for OpenTTD to do that?
08:27:59  <peter1138> eh
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09:47:38  <peter1138> Do I need a set of 24 random minifigs?
09:54:46  <andythenorth> 'need'
10:10:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the %6 vehicle combinations, the only way I can think of to do it is to have a switch for all 6 positions
10:10:42  <andythenorth> I thought there might be a short-cut but can't see it
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10:29:02  <Pikka> hyah!
10:31:45  <peter1138> Hoooboo
10:32:11  <Pikka> whichwhat
10:43:01  <andythenorth> hmm
10:43:31  * andythenorth can't fix railcar consists
10:43:37  <andythenorth> nvm
11:04:44  <peter1138> Let's call them convois, like in Simutrans.
11:06:27  <andythenorth> is it better? o_O
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11:10:31  <andythenorth> it was going well
11:10:33  <andythenorth> then it wasn't
11:10:53  <andythenorth> % 6 has problems with train of length 7
11:11:01  <andythenorth> I guess I need to subtract something somewhere
11:12:22  <V453000> wot
11:12:42  <andythenorth> I am trying to make a better pattern for supermop and Pikka
11:12:45  <andythenorth> they haz feature request
11:13:35  <peter1138> What who.
11:14:50  <andythenorth>
11:15:00  <andythenorth> actually less
11:15:18  <andythenorth> revised
11:15:31  <andythenorth> it has rules up to length 6, then needs to repeat them
11:15:38  <andythenorth> but that fails, because I can't maths
11:16:31  <V453000> ah I see
11:17:27  <andythenorth> I need to subtract or divide something in the first switch
11:18:45  <andythenorth> someone should implement Eddi-as-a-service
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11:34:04  <peter1138> Should I lunch?
11:35:08  <peter1138> andythenorth, just make it all the same and rely on the user to flip ;)
11:40:47  <andythenorth> :)
11:41:32  * andythenorth figured out a solution
11:41:37  <andythenorth> but it needs another switch
11:41:40  <andythenorth> eugh
11:42:06  <peter1138> Toggle switch.
11:42:12  <peter1138> ctrl-click toggle switch :D
11:43:34  <andythenorth> count number of times flipped :p
11:44:25  <peter1138> ooh yeah
11:44:29  <peter1138> or
11:44:41  <peter1138> use the old multihead flag ;)
11:48:01  <andythenorth> tried that once, it's weird, can't remember why
11:48:36  <andythenorth> delete default flipping, allow ctrl-click to increment a count, 0-15
11:48:41  <andythenorth> all madness supported
11:48:44  <peter1138> there's restrictions on places and stuff. it's just awkward.
11:48:58  <peter1138> hidden features eh?
11:49:00  <andythenorth> flipping is then % 2 count
11:49:18  <andythenorth> up to 16 'liveries' or other madness
11:50:41  <peter1138> What was the issue with cargo subtypes again, other than it appearing un "refit cargo"
11:50:58  <andythenorth> it's weird
11:51:06  <andythenorth> it isn't reliable with auto-replace
11:51:20  <andythenorth> and there are 'bugs'
11:51:32  <andythenorth> that aren't bugs at all, unless you're trying to use it for livery and stats hacks
11:51:48  <peter1138> yes, for changing stats it can mess things up
11:51:58  <peter1138> but for just visuals, not really.
11:53:12  <andythenorth> also engines don't have a cargo
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12:00:50  <andythenorth>
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12:24:03  <peter1138> "These things don't work right when a grf does strange things, therefore I won't use it at all when designing my grf" ?
12:31:00  <andythenorth> you mean why won't I use subtypes? o_O
12:33:30  <_dp_> #if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK)
12:33:37  <_dp_> why not just #ifdef?
12:41:44  <LordAro> hysterical raisins
12:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, the %6 is not for position in consist, the %6 is for total length
12:48:04  <andythenorth> so I am learning
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12:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so you then branch into 6 special cases: total length of 6n+0, 6n+1, 6n+2 ... 6n+5
12:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> in each one of these you also have the possibility to further branch off if the total length is <6 or >6
12:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can have one case for 1, and another for 7,13,...
12:55:39  <andythenorth> I can't branch for > 6
12:55:41  <andythenorth> that's mad
12:55:48  <andythenorth> I am slicing out multiples of 6
12:55:54  <andythenorth> I'm just really bad at basic maths
12:55:56  <andythenorth> unacceptable
12:56:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you are a good luck charm :P
12:56:39  <andythenorth> it now works
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12:57:13  <andythenorth>
12:57:18  <andythenorth> I suspect it can be reduced somewhere
13:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points if you can make it symmetric from the middle :p
13:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so  7 will be 2+3+2 :p
13:01:56  <andythenorth> nope
13:01:57  <andythenorth> considered that
13:02:04  <andythenorth> I thought about going to 9 or so
13:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> nah, don't worry about it
13:03:45  <andythenorth> I could store temp the repeated calculation
13:03:46  <andythenorth> but eh
13:03:51  <Eddi|zuHause> position_in_vehid_chain - (position_in_vehid_chain - (position_in_vehid_chain % 6)) <-- that's just "position_in_vehid_chain % 6"
13:04:29  <Eddi|zuHause> x - (x - (y))
13:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> = x - x + (y)
13:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> = (y)
13:04:59  <_dp_> can I use "auto" in patch? i.e. is openttd fully c++11?
13:08:29  <_dp_> damn, it won't help anyway :(
13:10:19  <_dp_> can't use undefined type even if code is unreached when it's not defined
13:12:09  * _dp_ learning how to do macroses
13:13:46  <__ln__> mac-roses?
13:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> maccaronis?
13:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> man, now i'm hungry
13:17:19  <_dp_> macrohell
13:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a beer brand waiting to happen
13:27:16  <_dp_> how do I make macro out of stuff like that? auto x = foo(); return x == NULL ? NULL : x->bar;
13:27:47  <_dp_> and considering it's probably not a good idea to put return in macro
13:29:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: reduced that thanks
13:32:24  <_dp_> I can do (foo() == NULL ? NULL : foo()->bar) and hope compilers are smart enough to optimize that by doesn't look too good of an idea
13:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think compilers will optimize that unless foo is inline
13:34:05  <LordAro> _dp_: i'd be very surprised if there was anything particularly wrong with that
13:34:30  <LordAro> oh, i see
13:34:46  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, afaik inline is pretty much meaningless nowdays
13:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> how would a compiler detect whether foo has side effects?
13:35:18  <LordAro> ~*~magic~*~
13:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> potentially foo is only known at link time anyway
13:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and that is far beyond most optimizations
13:36:05  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, does inline even guarantee there are no side-effects?
13:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:36:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but if it's inline the compiler can see the effects
13:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> on the other hand, the order of execution in that expression is probably undefined, so side effects will be very wrong anyway
13:37:39  <andythenorth> hmm
13:37:48  <andythenorth> I think I stay off forums a bit
13:39:08  <LordAro> what have you done now
13:39:14  <andythenorth> Pikka: what's better:  2 liveries, choose by flipping; n liveries, chosen according to consist major cargo; just 1 livery, live with it ???
13:39:23  <andythenorth> for engines
13:39:33  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how can it even be undefined? it's a bloody if :p
13:39:51  <Pikka> I like choose by cargo / year / random / other things the player has no control over
13:40:07  <andythenorth> LordAro: acs121 is about 12, and I have to remember not be annoyed :|
13:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's C, things are undefined in ways beyond imagination :p
13:40:15  <Pikka> makes it simpler, and you're not relying on players stumbling on mechanics to show off all your sprites :P
13:42:04  <andythenorth> and not limited to 2
13:42:09  <Pikka> yes
13:42:10  <andythenorth> although limits are nice
13:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: assume that 99% of players never even find the feature of flipping
13:42:34  <andythenorth> I know, but it doesn't worry me
13:42:40  <andythenorth> the default sprite will be good
13:42:49  <andythenorth> 99% of mac users never touch the terminal
13:43:38  <andythenorth> but if flipping was good for engine liveries, I'd probably have done it already :P
13:44:08  <andythenorth> it's implemented, I just didn't get motivated to do the sprites
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13:47:01  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, fortunately expressions are well-defined even in random execution languages like whenever :p
13:47:53  <andythenorth> Pikka and pokka
13:48:13  <Pokka> yes
13:48:47  <andythenorth> are the liveries all just a bit 1990s British Rail?
13:48:54  <andythenorth> does it work for NARS-horse?
13:49:24  <andythenorth> probably does
13:49:59  <Pokka> no yellow ends, perfect for narshorse ;)
13:50:09  <andythenorth> such perfect
13:52:58  <andythenorth> duff
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13:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> narshorn?
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14:03:27  <supermop_work> yo
14:05:46  <andythenorth> supermop_work: took longer than it should :P
14:06:02  <andythenorth> still triggers single unit at 7
14:06:14  <andythenorth> can't be arsed to handle that :)
14:12:18  <supermop_work> nice
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14:13:06  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:25:49  <peter1138> derpaherp
14:26:22  <_dp_> damn, two hours to write python's getattr in c++ xD
14:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like something where it would be useful to use somone else's code
14:28:29  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not rly since it's impossible to do in general :p
14:30:48  <_dp_> couldn't even avoid having return in macros
14:31:42  <_dp_> but guess that's fine since there are already plenty of return macros throughout the code
14:32:28  <Alberth> look for a code generator that gives you reflection
14:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or use hashmaps (which is what python does anyway)
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14:44:12  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, I would need to convert NetworkClientInfo to hashmap then :p
14:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i really don't know what you're doing, but it sounds wrong...
14:45:55  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, basically, just trying to use NetworkClientInfo when it's not defined without bloody ifdefs everywhere
14:46:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i really don't know what you're doing, but it sounds wrong...
14:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> like you've already taken too many steps down the wrongness-fractal, trace back up, and need to rethink on a more fundamental level what you're trying to do
14:51:15  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, making this work --without-networking
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14:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> just comment it out? return dummy info?
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14:52:24  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and it would actually work as it is if only it did compile
14:52:47  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you mean create dummy NetworkClientInfo structure?
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14:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
14:54:32  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, macro seems a better solution to me
14:54:57  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also will still have to do smth with string in GetName
14:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> why can't all these functions just "{#ifdef WITHOUT_NETWORK} return NULL; {#else} ..."?
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14:57:23  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, a lot of code duplication?
14:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand what you're trying to achieve
14:58:56  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, right now I've done this:
15:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so, why can't this be a template function?
15:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> or override operator-> to handle this==NULL?
15:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i feel like this code is trying to be too clever for its own good
15:07:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, I don't see how are you going to do the same with either of your solutions
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15:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> to reduce some spurious code duplication, you go a step too far towards complexity
15:08:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not to mention overriding operators is much worse of a complication
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15:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> while that may technically be true, at least you stay within the language, while using macros means you're doing stuff outside the language
15:13:04  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, some languages not even allow overriding operators by design considering how many issues it arises
15:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't say it's a good solution...
15:13:47  <_dp_> also part of the reasons some people prefer c to c++
15:14:03  <Alberth> some languages try to prtotect proggrammers from themselves and fail miserably
15:14:16  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, it's not even a solution since you have different null value types
15:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd still lean towards defining the appropriate types when networking is not defined
15:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> or, putting the whole file in #ifdef
15:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> damn the duplication
15:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it's much clearer what's going on
15:15:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I don't think GS will be happy with conditional API
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15:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: correct me if i'm wrong, but the whole issue is the "FindClientInfo" function?
15:17:23  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, networkclients could techically work without network but that would be refactoring a lot of networknig code
15:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so you just put that in #ifdef, and the #else you put a dummy function that just returns NULL?
15:18:32  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not function by itself, that could go in ifdefs, but using it
15:18:52  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you can't use undefined type
15:19:00  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, even in unreachable code
15:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you could return a void* or something
15:19:24  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you cant have ->attr on void*
15:20:35  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if only compiler could check if(_networking) in compile time there wouldn't even be a problem
15:20:41  <_dp_> but that's too much to ask from c++
15:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so the other function bodies also need some #ifdef
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15:21:20  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, ifdefs everywhere, that would work
15:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds much cleaner than your crazy macro there
15:25:41  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, on macro scale that's not ever close to crazy :p
15:26:07  <_dp_> does "Advertised: NO" not show advertised servers on lan?
15:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> how about something like ?
15:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, missed a "GET_"
15:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> in the #else
15:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, isn't the line "return (FindClientInfo(client) == NULL ? client : CLIENT_INVALID);" backwards?
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15:37:52  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how's that any better than my macros?
15:38:12  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, like I can throwout do while and use FindClientInfo too
15:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <_dp_> does "Advertised: NO" not show advertised servers on lan? <-- the "advertised" setting is for whether you want your server to be visible for everybody. it will show up in LAN anyway, and people can access it from outside if they know your IP
15:38:52  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, I noticed that's backwards too
15:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: can you explain to me again why we can't define the NetworkClientInfo structure outside the #ifdef in the header?
15:43:09  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and what to do with its methods?
15:43:18  <_dp_> like GetByClientID
15:43:39  <_dp_> which probably won't work --without-networking easily
15:44:40  <_dp_> it also creates a pool
15:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need the pool or the function
15:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> just the structure
15:45:09  <_dp_> what I don't rly undestand here is who the hell even needs openttd --without-networking ?
15:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so syntactically you can do ->attr
15:45:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you also need NetworkClientInfo::GetByClientID
15:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: this is mostly for crazy platforms like DOS or something
15:46:53  <Alberth> make a baseclass for the interface, and 2 classes with implementation?
15:47:39  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, omg, and was there anyone who actually tried to use openttd on dos in last 10 years?
15:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> people do weird stuff like that all the time
15:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> afair, it never even worked in actual DOS, just in dosbox
15:56:28  <peter1138> 16:45 < _dp_> what I don't rly undestand here is who the hell even needs openttd --without-networking ?
15:56:31  <peter1138> +1
15:56:43  <_dp_> ah, fuck it
15:57:08  <peter1138> _dp_, yeah, ugly isn't it.
15:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's much better to read, though
15:58:11  <peter1138> Better than the original patch?
15:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> better than the macro version earlier
15:59:04  <peter1138> --without-network, if it needs to exist, should probably leave the structures and calls intact, and simply just not do any netowrking.
15:59:30  <peter1138> Anyway, home time.
15:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why i said we should define the data type anyway
16:01:07  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, better, huh :p
16:03:57  <_dp_> anyway, dealing with networking stuff seems way out of the scope of this patch
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16:15:07  <Rubidium> _dp_: the DOS port?
16:21:36  <_dp_> Rubidium, huh?
16:25:32  <Rubidium> getting TCP/IP connections in DOS is not the most trivial thing, so not having to work on that for the DOS port was really useful
16:25:51  <peter1138> Rubidium, problem is the ENABLE_NETWORK stuff is very invasive.
16:26:10  <peter1138> If it could touch just the network code it would be better.
16:27:59  <Rubidium> it's not that the case I give is a really sensible one ;)
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16:37:55  <_dp_>  * 1.8.0 is not yet released. The following changes are not set in stone yet.
16:38:03  <_dp_> seems... wrong
16:38:05  <LordAro> ha
16:38:16  <LordAro> someone didn't follow the release checklist closely enough
16:42:29  <_dp_> hm, GetJoinedDate or GetJoinDate?
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16:59:13  <frosch123> LordAro: i always only merge the changelog changes once a year before the next branch
16:59:18  <frosch123> it's just less work
16:59:53  <frosch123> _dp_: GetJoinDate imo
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17:11:52  <andythenorth> o/
17:18:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i figured out how to play CK II yet :/
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17:24:00  <Wolf01> Moin
17:25:33  <Wolf01> Meh, I forgot what I started the PC for...
17:25:37  <andythenorth> hi Wolf01
17:25:46  <frosch123> for looking at lego photos?
17:25:56  <Wolf01> Nah, already on the phone
17:26:04  <frosch123> bigger screen
17:26:04  <_dp_> frosch123, not sure if I need to click smth or not but I'm done with your review
17:26:30  <frosch123> thanks :)
17:26:43  <Wolf01> I'll netflix, it will come in mind
17:39:18  <peter1138> Hmm, right, how to make a GUI these days :p
17:49:05  <frosch123> would you still know how it was done in the old days?
17:52:35  <peter1138> No :-)
18:00:49  <_dp_> is there a way to get older version of GS from bananas?
18:01:44  <frosch123> maybe as dependency of a scenario
18:02:35  <_dp_> well, I got it as a dependency of savegame but didn't work
18:03:28  <_dp_> though it actually seems to request even newer version than bananas has
18:03:31  <_dp_> so wtf rly
18:04:14  <_dp_> dbg: [script] The savegame has an GameScript by the name 'Simpleton's City Builder', version 11 which is no longer available.
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18:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well, can't request something from bananas which was never there
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18:24:05  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, don't think that's the case
18:24:21  <supermop> yo
18:24:44  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I'd rather believe that newer version reports lower version number
18:25:16  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, or savegame is just fucked up because it's kinda weird...
18:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well i can't really help you in any case
18:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> can anyone tell me how CkII battles work? i had bigger army, and good generals, and suddenly half of my army retreats from battle?
18:31:39  <supermop> maybe they had dorkier uniforms?
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18:44:10  <peter1138> Hmm, do we have any docs about what string codes there are?
18:45:38  <frosch123> eints has
18:46:08  <peter1138> Don't think I have access to that.
18:46:46  <frosch123>
18:48:20  <frosch123> though that list intentionally misses the pictogram-chars
18:48:31  <frosch123> since noone knows whether they should be removed or kept :)
18:48:59  <frosch123> stuff like {CROSS} {TICK} etc
18:49:01  <peter1138> :-)
18:55:04  <glx> maybe in strgen headers
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19:20:00  <TrueBrain> peter1138: in my opinion, it is (changing title during squash); but that is just me :)
19:20:05  <TrueBrain> just make sure it is according to the coding style :)
19:22:04  <TrueBrain> it also annoys me now I cannot merge a good PR because of the commit message :D
19:23:35  <peter1138> heh
19:24:15  <TrueBrain> the longer we work with GitHub, the more I understand why people use bots to do stuff like merging :)
19:24:25  <TrueBrain> a bot can handle all this work safely
19:24:49  <TrueBrain> but we will see :)
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19:41:34  <peter1138> Hmm, my new livery window works a bit nicer.
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19:49:24  <peter1138> When do grfcodec/nforenum get migrated to git? :)
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19:55:15  <LordAro> when someone deems their code acceptable to see the light of day
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19:59:30  <frosch123> catcodec, msu, musa, osie, grfcodec, nml, opengfx, opensfx, openmsx, ... where does openttd end and devzone start? :p
19:59:47  <peter1138> :D
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20:00:20  <peter1138> But not necessarily within OpenTTD.
20:02:04  <frosch123> i skipped extra/balancer, extra/compile_farm, extra/pngcodec, extra/strgen, extra/website
20:02:18  <frosch123> no idea whether any of them are still relevant
20:05:30  <Rubidium> I'd reckon the website is still relevant ;)
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20:08:25  <andythenorth> eints :P
20:09:01  <frosch123> yes, i missed that one :)
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20:13:08  <andythenorth> Wolf01: remind why we're bad people who banned road downgrading?
20:13:20  <andythenorth> I know it was debated for like 3 weeks or something
20:13:24  <andythenorth> but apparently it's all wrong
20:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> some nonsense about trying to prevent griefing that won't work anyway?
20:13:43  <Wolf01> What do you find wrong about it?
20:14:20  <andythenorth> not me, my favourite forum poster
20:17:40  <supermop> just ignore
20:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we established that forum ignore doesn't work?
20:19:44  <andythenorth> what if they're right?
20:23:15  <Wolf01> I think they are right, yes, but I also think that electrification should just be an addition and not a basetype
20:24:05  <Wolf01> BTW, removing the check to allow downgrading roads should be easy
20:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause>
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20:33:23  <andythenorth> what about checking who owns the tile?
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20:37:29  <hrmny> hey
20:39:12  <hrmny> if anyone can tell me, or point me to where it's implemented: how does openttd make the trains move together, like keeping all the wagons together and making them do the same turns
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20:52:21  <frosch123> TrainController probably
20:52:36  <andythenorth> hmm
20:52:40  <andythenorth> 2CC or not :P
20:52:41  <frosch123> train_cmd.cpp
20:53:15  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> what about checking who owns the tile? <- that is already as it is, you can do whatever you want with your roads, he is talking about town owned roads
20:54:05  <hrmny> frosch123 ok thx, will take a look, very long file tho
20:54:34  <LordAro> well it is the main feature of the game :p
20:56:24  <frosch123> hrmny: anyway, the front engine moves, and the chain follows. wagon length is limited by the shortest track on a tile (horizontal/vertical), so wagons can directly ask the vehicle in front, whcih track on a tile to use. consists never skip tiles
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20:57:28  <hrmny> LordAro doesn't mean you have to do it all in one file, but idk
20:57:38  <hrmny> frosch123 what about very fast trains?
20:57:46  <hrmny> couldn't they in theory skip a tile
20:58:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: blah blah then imho :)
20:58:14  <LordAro> hrmny: true, but no code is perfect :p
20:58:19  <frosch123> no, they just move many small steps in succession
20:58:37  <hrmny> in a single frame?
20:58:42  <frosch123> yes, up to 4
20:58:48  <frosch123> (iirc)
20:58:49  <hrmny> oh hmm
20:59:14  <hrmny> trying to make my own train game for fun
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20:59:39  <frosch123> there is like a half dozen in development already :p
20:59:46  <hrmny> yes, I don't intend to sell  it
21:00:00  <andythenorth> should every engine have 2CC on it?
21:00:07  <andythenorth> or is that a foolish consistency?
21:00:36  <frosch123> consistency is boring?
21:01:00  <andythenorth> it's a good baseline
21:01:08  <andythenorth> variation from consistency is good
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21:03:03  <frosch123> so, downloadable newgrf presets: is it reasonable to make them not support licence, readme, changelog, ... files? i.e. newgrf presets would only have a name, and always be public domain?
21:04:53  <Wolf01> They are just a link of filenames... no license/readme imho
21:04:55  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
21:05:09  <andythenorth> we'd need an actual license of some kind
21:05:13  <andythenorth> they're still copyright
21:05:35  <Wolf01> The licenses are with grfs themselves
21:06:14  <Wolf01> You should be able to browse the preset list and read all the licenses, a sort of filter on the dlc list
21:06:15  <andythenorth> no the grf preset is also a creative work
21:06:18  <frosch123> CC-0
21:06:21  <peter1138> It's hardly an original work.
21:06:22  <andythenorth> so it has to be licensed
21:06:38  <andythenorth> hmm
21:06:46  <andythenorth> I might be wrong
21:06:46  <hrmny> frosch123 do you know how the other wagons ask the vehicles in front?
21:06:53  <andythenorth> using playlists ~= presets
21:07:36  <frosch123> hrmny: TrainController moves them together, they are organised in a linked list
21:08:08  <hrmny> yeah but how
21:08:38  <frosch123> sorry, that question is too unspecific :)
21:09:06  <hrmny> like rn I have the trains in sections, but don't know how to tell all segments to take a turn on after the other
21:09:21  <hrmny> *sections
21:09:40  <frosch123> just make sure that the wagon in front is at most one section ahead
21:09:55  <hrmny> only thing I came up with is to keep a list of turns a section should take
21:09:57  <Wolf01> andythenorth: if you are the author of the grfs and make a preset then it's your "album" and you might be able to license it (or not), if you are just a guy which loves to play with a set of different grfs and want to ease other players to setup it, then it's a playlist/preset and shouldn't be licensed, the best you can do is having your name on the upload
21:10:00  <frosch123> when a wagon reaches the end of a section it enter the start of the section of the wagon in front
21:10:05  <hrmny> and when the front one turns, push it on the next one
21:11:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I would anticipate that some contributors will disagree
21:11:30  <andythenorth> they might be wrong, so we should get them to click some box :P
21:11:37  <andythenorth> such legal mumbo jumbo
21:12:37  <Wolf01> So I want a license on my screenshots, now what?
21:12:39  <hrmny> frosch123 are the wagon in openttd always less than one track long?
21:12:43  <hrmny> *wagons
21:13:42  <frosch123> yes, that's the first thing i mentioned :p
21:14:35  <frosch123> "equal" is also still valid, but trains cannot skip tracks between wagons
21:15:17  <frosch123> it's also important to prevent removing track while a train drives on them :p
21:15:36  <glx> too long wagons will probably have graphic glitches anyway
21:15:42  <andythenorth> Wolf01: forums will have a license clause somewhere in ToS
21:15:44  <frosch123> also, some vehicle sets fake longer wagons, by inserting invisible parts between wagons
21:15:46  <andythenorth> for your screenshots
21:15:52  <andythenorth> :)
21:16:08  <frosch123> so that the invisible parts keep the train on track
21:16:09  <Wolf01> If I upload them in the forums
21:16:18  <hrmny> ah ok
21:16:21  <hrmny> makes sense
21:17:02  <peter1138> I would recommend coming up with a decent method instead of borrowing our kludges :p
21:17:30  <hrmny> does the train get updated from the back to the front?
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21:22:31  <Wolf01> andythenorth: does it have any specific license? I found mentions about the services and shared content, but it's really generic
21:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hrmny: i'm fairly sure it's front to back
21:27:22  <andythenorth>
21:27:35  <andythenorth> 3.2 Licenses to Your Content in Order to Operate the Services. We require certain licenses from you to your content to operate and enable the Services. When you upload content to the Services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sub-licensable, and transferrable license to use, reproduce, publicly display, distribute, modify (so as to better showcase your content, for example), publicly perform,
21:27:36  <andythenorth> and translate the content as needed in response to user driven actions (such as when you choose to store privately or share your content with others). This license is only for the purpose of operating or improving the Services.
21:27:41  <andythenorth> bblah blah legal blah
21:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hrmny: you need to know how far the front engine actually managed to move (red signal, etc.), in order to decide how far the wagons move
21:28:17  <hrmny> oh ye true
21:28:35  <hrmny> but couldn't the front one move over the tile then before the next one gets to check?
21:30:20  <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, I've read that part, but it applies to everything, and that's to make the system work, not giving the user a license to do anything
21:30:53  <Wolf01> You might be able to sell colour presets, but with what license?
21:31:21  <Wolf01> In OTTD it's everything easier, you don't sell content with bananas
21:32:11  <Wolf01> The only "license" you need for presets is that you can upload it, edit, and remove it
21:32:32  <peter1138> I think it's dumb to even consider licenses for it.,
21:33:13  <Wolf01> Also you don't even do it as a work, as you don't want to be the curator :>
21:36:13  <andythenorth> GL dealing with the drama :P
21:36:21  <andythenorth> DMCA takedown anyone?
21:36:33  <peter1138> For a preset list. Are you mad?
21:36:44  <andythenorth> we have form on this
21:36:45  <Wolf01> Also since a preset is contained with every savegame which uses grfs, when you share a savegame/scenario you already share a preset, prior art?
21:37:29  <andythenorth> peter1138: I don't have to be, we have contribtors who do that for us
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21:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the "license" for presets should be in the bananas TOS
21:40:37  <Wolf01> +1
21:40:39  <andythenorth> it's not currently
21:40:56  <andythenorth> but this is what I'm trying to explain :P
21:40:59  <andythenorth> clearly failing
21:41:04  <andythenorth> thanks Eddi|zuHause :)
21:41:47  <peter1138> oh
21:42:16  <Wolf01> Eddi the lightbringer :P
21:42:56  <andythenorth> current ToS is really specific to the current content
21:43:04  <andythenorth>
21:43:13  <andythenorth> so specific it would need updating
21:43:34  <andythenorth> usual legal bollocks, and we don't even have a fork yet :P
21:50:28  <peter1138> Oh god. I could just steal the regular livery window, and include all the livery classes for groups :p
21:52:36  <peter1138> No. no. no.
21:53:15  <andythenorth> you _could_
21:53:27  <peter1138> Gets tricky with what "Default" means.
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21:55:45  <Wolf01> Anyway, 'night
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22:04:33  <andythenorth> also
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