Log for #openttd on 22nd April 2018:
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05:56:21  <Alberth> moin
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06:15:27  <Alberth> hello andy and albert!
06:16:14  <Alberth> mr aro will consider balance somewhat disturbed :p
06:17:02  <Pikka> a disturbance in the farce?
06:20:16  <andythenorth> hello
06:21:04  <ZehMatt> good morning
06:21:17  <Alberth> too many alberts online at the same time
06:22:47  * andythenorth can't remember
06:24:09  * Pikka is only a pretend Albert
06:24:50  <Alberth>
06:25:14  <Pikka> it was one of my grandfather's middle names, but I got the other one :)
06:25:41  <Alberth> so balance should be ok, phew!
06:28:08  * peter1138 blows up the game
06:28:19  <peter1138> Or maybe that's bloats...
06:29:10  <andythenorth> does anyone know why NRT forbids downgrade?
06:29:18  <andythenorth> my local spec says reason is here
06:29:21  <peter1138> Might give cycling a miss today, my legs are still a bit iffy after Friday night and Saturday's effort
06:29:21  <andythenorth> but I can't see it
06:29:31  <ZehMatt> how many of you are actually playing OpenTTD once a while?
06:29:34  <andythenorth> players are complaining
06:29:46  <andythenorth> now we have to add more BS error messages to game
06:29:56  <andythenorth> maybe for bogus reasons
06:30:12  <peter1138> andythenorth, just let them change colours per group, then they'll all shut up and be happy.
06:30:27  <andythenorth> ok
06:31:05  <peter1138> Signal:  Floating point exception (8)
06:31:06  <peter1138> OMG
06:31:12  <Pikka> you broke it
06:31:15  <peter1138> I tried to divide by zero ;(
06:31:27  <Pikka> you mad impulsive fool you
06:31:43  * Pikka goes shopwards, bbs
06:35:07  <Alberth> ZehMatt: depending how often "once in a while" means, somewhere between nobody and a few, is my guess
06:35:46  <Alberth> at least for the people that say words here
06:35:47  <ZehMatt> im having trouble playing games where I have access to the code :v
06:35:59  <ZehMatt> for odd reasons im having more fun messing with that
06:36:14  <ZehMatt> so im wondering if im alone here
06:36:22  <Alberth> yep, playing code games is more satisfying :p
06:36:36  <andythenorth> metagame
06:36:48  <andythenorth> the game of OpenTTD is making the game
06:37:26  <ZehMatt> i never played transport tycoon imho
06:37:33  <ZehMatt> and only a few times OpenTTD with a friend
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06:38:01  <peter1138> Oh, I broke it again.
06:38:04  <ZehMatt> also gotta admit nice project
06:38:27  <Alberth> forever finding new ways to break the program, peter?
06:38:51  <ZehMatt> since its chris sawyers code I can see alot of resemblence from RCT2
06:39:29  <peter1138> Not exactly.
06:39:52  <ZehMatt> i can see a lot of things that are close to identical
06:40:58  <peter1138> Do you mean OpenRCT2?
06:41:02  <Alberth> yep, he has been selling basically the same program 4-5 times or so :)
06:41:11  <ZehMatt> well yeah I work on that project
06:41:15  <ZehMatt> sometimes*
06:41:39  <ZehMatt> i began fixing the multiplayer desyncs there a year ago
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06:41:50  <ZehMatt> and other strange things that i found over the time
06:43:35  <peter1138> The original code for both was x86 assembly, so...
06:44:42  <ZehMatt> well yeah
06:45:37  <ZehMatt> you guys also changed how the isometric sorting works
06:45:45  <ZehMatt> orct2 still uses the vanilla variant and its pittyful
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07:42:51  <andythenorth> Pikka: which slugs?
07:42:56  <andythenorth> black nose or CC nose
07:44:19  <Pikka> cc nose with black vent, I think
07:44:46  <Pikka> 29/39
07:45:15  <Pikka> or maybe vary by livery... I like the black nose on the grey/yellow
07:46:04  <Pikka> hmm
07:46:21  <Pikka> yes, cc nose with black vent :P
07:48:25  <andythenorth> good, CC nose is best
07:48:30  <andythenorth> realism says black but eh
07:48:52  <andythenorth> windows disappear with black
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07:49:48  <Wolf01> Moin
07:50:08  <andythenorth> hi Wolf01
07:50:31  <andythenorth> I absolutely can't remember why NRT forbids downgrade
07:50:42  <andythenorth> I checked logs, and it's *not* to prevent deliberate griefin
07:50:44  <andythenorth> g
07:51:45  <Wolf01> Forbids downgrade in towns so you can't disrupt an electrified network made by another player
07:51:56  <Wolf01> Since town roads can be converted by any player
07:52:17  <andythenorth> hmm I'm missing the transcript
07:52:44  <Wolf01> The discussion was about "if I convert town roads, who'll get the ownership?" we decided to let town keep the ownership of town roads
07:52:55  <peter1138> Hmm, Garmin Edge 130, £170 :S
07:53:13  <andythenorth> bargain
07:53:29  <andythenorth> ok so the 'no downgrade' is to prevent griefing?
07:53:42  <Wolf01> Yes, you wanted that really much
07:53:52  <peter1138> My 25 was £50 in Aldi, that was a bargain. But its battery life is dropping.
07:54:33  <andythenorth>
07:54:52  <andythenorth> there must be logs from another day where I changed my mind about griefing
07:55:42  <andythenorth> the rule seemed to be that all town roads must be compatible with ROAD always
07:56:17  <Wolf01> Yes, that too
07:56:27  <Wolf01> You can't convert town roads to HAUL
07:56:47  <andythenorth> but you also can't downgrade your own roads?
07:57:13  <Wolf01> With your roads you can do anything you want
07:57:33  <Wolf01> They are yours :D
07:58:02  <andythenorth> apparently not
07:58:16  <andythenorth> apparently convert is only upwards
07:58:25  <andythenorth> I haven't tested mind you
07:58:35  <andythenorth> I'm going by reports of my least-favourite forum poster
07:58:45  <Wolf01> Not the town roads you converted, but the ones you buiild
07:58:57  <Wolf01> *built
08:00:06  <Wolf01> Also I don't seem to be able to split the NRT patch to simple ones... I'm stuck on the cost calculation stuff now :(
08:00:21  <Wolf01> We changed that part a lot
08:00:41  <andythenorth> :P
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08:04:31  <peter1138> Does cost calculation need to change initially?
08:05:42  <Wolf01> The cost for NRT is based on the subtype, every road can define it's own, so no more "count bits and sum an hardcoded cost"
08:06:53  <peter1138> Yes, but initially, patch-splitting-wise, there won't be extra subtypes.
08:07:49  <Wolf01> Yes, but the problem is that we use also RoadTypeIdentifiers in place of Roadtypes, and stuff like bitwise operations need to be changed accordingly
08:09:02  <arahael> So, I have about 35k units of cargo delivered to a particular station (trains only).
08:09:18  <arahael> I'm wondering what the max capacity of a station is, under ideal conditions. (12x7)
08:09:24  <Pikka> andythenorth, can you upgrade other players' roads?
08:09:34  <andythenorth> not according to spec
08:09:38  <andythenorth> only yours and unowned (TOWN)
08:09:50  <andythenorth> actually iirc, town is owner NONE
08:10:03  <andythenorth> can't remember about bankrupts
08:10:03  <Wolf01> Town is owner_town
08:10:25  <arahael> Pikka: My town has an open sewer.  Every resident complains about it.  It's owned by a railway station...  We've covered *every* open sewer except for that one.  I woudl therefore suggest that it's realistic not being able to upgrade another player's road.
08:10:27  <Wolf01> Owner_none is for SE placed roads or bankruptcy companies
08:10:39  <arahael> Pikka: Why, afterall, would you give another company money to upgrade *their* road?
08:11:07  <Pikka> arahael: because you want to build your highway across their dirt track
08:11:17  <Wolf01> Make a bridge
08:11:22  <arahael> Pikka: You'd need to buy the road.
08:12:15  <Pikka> perhaps. I was just offering it as a possible reason for "no downgrading roads". if you can upgrade other players' roads, it makes sense you can only upgrade them to better and compatible road types.
08:12:22  <Wolf01> In any way, you are still free to put tramways over other players' roads, like it's now
08:12:35  <Wolf01> Or roads under other players' tramways
08:12:44  <arahael> Pikka: I don't think I'd want to allow other companies to upgrade _my_ roads, if it gives them a further competitive advantage.
08:12:50  <Alberth> I don't think you can win in all situations
08:12:55  <arahael> Pikka: I'd only appreciate the upgrade if I was about ot make use of it myself.
08:13:00  <Wolf01> Unless the road/tram spec forbids to build the other basetype
08:13:17  <Alberth> bbl
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08:14:07  * arahael has 35k units of cargo per month delivered to this particular station, and 24 billion dollars.  Hmm.
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08:20:53  <andythenorth> ok BBl
08:21:06  <peter1138> Oh
08:23:40  <peter1138> So I added a scrollbar to the livery window and now it doesn't resize :S
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08:25:27  <arahael> livery/
08:25:29  <arahael> ?
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08:37:15  <Wolf01> peter1138: could you help me on this?
08:41:53  <Wolf01> I would just put cost.AddCost(_price[PR_BUILD_ROAD] * (2 - num_roadbits)); on both road and tram parts and remove the cost.AddCost(_price[PR_BUILD_ROAD] * roadbits_to_build);
09:04:51  <peter1138> Hmm, so in an old version, the red flag was placed at the front of the vehicle chain, not before the unit number.
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09:13:55  <peter1138> 1.0.0 moves it
09:14:42  <peter1138> But the alignment is good there.
09:15:46  <peter1138> Hmm, and it's fine in master.
09:15:47  <peter1138> Hmm
09:16:12  <peter1138> When interface size is normal.
09:17:09  <peter1138> On double the flag moves down, the text moves up
09:18:25  <Wolf01> So, I made it compile and run, now check what's broken
09:18:45  <Wolf01> Ok, I can't build roads
09:18:47  <Wolf01> :D
09:19:20  <Wolf01> But bridges and tunnels yes
09:20:32  <peter1138> Heh
09:20:36  <peter1138> That solves the issue :D
09:21:11  <Wolf01> I can't start a new game because towns can't build roads, so they can't be found
09:26:11  <peter1138> Nice.
09:28:40  <Wolf01> Oh, found the problem
09:28:54  <Wolf01> Passed a Roadtype instead of a RoadTypeIdentifier
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09:34:12  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah ... I did all that work to find out Windows is even more shit than I expected ... Windows 10 Pro can only run Docker containers via Hyper-V with a mini-kernel loaded in there ... takes at least 1 GB of RAM
09:34:24  <TrueBrain> Windows 2016 Server is the only one who can run containers on process level
09:34:39  <TrueBrain> WHY do they just fuck up any oppurtinity to be awesome, and make it gated behind other installations etc
09:34:41  <TrueBrain> UGH
09:34:52  <TrueBrain> so .. I am going to install Windows Server 2016 I guess ..... *facepalm*
09:36:48  <arahael> TrueBrain: "containers on a process level"? Where do I read up on those?
09:37:18  <TrueBrain> hidden in 3 levels of documentation, but I found it by clicking on Compatbility in the Docker for Windows documentation
09:37:41  <arahael> TrueBrain: That's so typical. :(  Do you have a link? I don't have windows at home... ;)
09:38:00  * arahael keeps that crap at work.
09:38:02  <peter1138> Hmm, I'm sure we had some code that scaled stuff by gui zoom level, but I can't find it now.
09:38:08  <TrueBrain> its on the web; so you can even find it at home :)
09:38:16  <TrueBrain> and no, I ragequit last night .. :(
09:39:46  <TrueBrain> arahael: just google for windows server 2016 containers
09:41:02  <arahael> *sigh*.
09:41:33  <arahael> TrueBrain: I found a blog that describes it...  On  It's "scheduled for migration".
09:41:39  <arahael> Is this 1990 again? :)
09:41:50  <TrueBrain> it seriously is really horrible
09:41:57  <TrueBrain> the whole experience they created around it
09:42:23  <TrueBrain> the one that ticked me off most last night ... then you have docker running ... you make your first docker image ... and it needs to download 6 GB ... which extracts to over 10 GB ...
09:42:25  <TrueBrain> "containers"
09:42:29  <arahael> TrueBrain: I've been getting re-acquanted with ASP.NET lately.  It's really really good, for microsoft stuff.  But man, their documetnation about it is seriously awful.
09:42:33  <TrueBrain> it completely ruins the whole concept Docker was trying to set
09:42:45  <arahael> Heh, yeah...
09:42:59  <arahael> Docker has become really heavy and bloated in the enterprise.
09:43:15  <arahael> It's purely become a means of versioning your build configurations/setups.
09:44:09  <arahael> It's stuff like this that makes me content with... Literally shipping coal in openttd. :)  (Yep: That's my current game: Ship ALL THE COAL, to the one station)
09:44:29  <arahael> I'm discovering that the train network itself is quite a bottleneck.
09:46:50  <Wolf01> Nice, everything works, road build roads, tramway build roads... ehrm
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09:52:17  <andythenorth_> phone irc eh
09:53:35  <andythenorth_> Pikka: 1990: class 90, 89, 91, 92 or mongrel of all 4?
09:54:06  <andythenorth_> 5k HP, 125mph
09:58:13  <andythenorth_> or a sybic :p
10:02:02  <Wolf01> Cool! GB(2, 4, p1) works even if it should be GB(p1, 4, 2)!
10:02:22  <andythenorth_> magic
10:03:18  <Wolf01> Patchy patch, need a review
10:05:05  <arahael> Hmm...  My trains are frequently being reported as lost...
10:05:16  <LordAro> static inline uint GB(const T x, const uint8 s, const uint8 n) { return (x >> s) & (((T)1U << n) - 1); }
10:05:19  <LordAro> hrm
10:05:26  <arahael> But whenever I look at them, they're forced to simply follow their track, and the track takes them to the varoius stations they need to be.
10:05:49  <LordAro> pretty sure swapping x & n doesn't really work
10:06:19  <Wolf01> It doesn't work, but it doesn't throw errors too
10:06:34  <LordAro> well, why would it :p
10:06:52  <LordAro> as long as p1 is a uint8
10:07:31  <LordAro> could probably do something with T &&x to enforce an l-value
10:08:09  <andythenorth_> wolf what repo are you pushing to now? :)
10:10:08  <Wolf01> peter1138:
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10:10:39  <Wolf01> andythenorth_: noone, I'm working on a local branch of mine
10:10:43  <Pikka> andy, 91 and 92. 89's weird and 90 is just another increment on the 86/87...
10:11:13  <andythenorth_> i might do the 90 because it’s an 86 repaint
10:11:24  <andythenorth_> but eh, slopes :p
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10:11:44  <andythenorth_> i looked at the ukrs 2 90
10:12:06  <andythenorth_> has character
10:12:15  <Pikka> yikes
10:12:31  <andythenorth_> also ukrs 2: very livery :o
10:12:37  <andythenorth_> so much
10:13:29  <andythenorth_> but I could do a fast 92
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12:12:17  <arahael> So, I deleted a town - or at least, destroyed all the roads and buildings.  Population went to zero.
12:12:28  <arahael> And then suddenly, it built a road?  Do they regrow?
12:13:41  <FLHerne> arahael: It used to be that if you destroyed the central road tile (under the town name) they wouldn't regrow
12:14:42  <arahael> Ah, I see.
12:14:54  <arahael> I've bought those tiles out, so will see if that stops it.
12:15:08  <FLHerne> Possibly now it's recreated when destroyed? If you obstruct it, that should definitely work
12:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it always regrew when simply destroyed
12:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to block it to stop it from regrowing
12:17:47  <andythenorth> o/
12:21:32  <andythenorth> but coffee :|
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12:48:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: class 60 slab side very boring
12:49:14  <andythenorth> hmm no 60 in UKRS2
12:49:43  <andythenorth> 92 is slabs though
12:50:02  <Pikka> yes
12:50:08  <andythenorth> have to fake some stuff
12:50:18  <Pikka> I ended up putting a logo on the 86 to break up the side a bit
12:51:46  <andythenorth> you did some fancy liveries on some things too
12:52:02  <andythenorth> some of the sprinters and stuff are diagonal and swooshy
12:52:42  <Pikka> do you have the original sprite sheets, or are you looking at a decompile?
12:53:14  <andythenorth> ukrs2 wiki
12:53:26  <Pikka> oh
12:53:32  <Pikka> I forgot that was a thing
12:54:21  <Pikka> I packed up the sprite sheets to send to Leanden recently, if they're any use to you I can send them over
12:54:54  <andythenorth> nah I have a decompile, it's enough :)
12:54:55  <andythenorth> thanks though
12:55:05  <Pikka> ok :)
12:55:33  <andythenorth> trying to figure out if I can get multiple RL 60 liveries with just 2CC :P
12:56:20  <andythenorth> nvm DB Schenker is ugly anyway at 1x zoom
12:56:41  <Pikka> isn't DB just 1cc red?
12:56:47  <andythenorth> it has a grey stripe
12:56:57  <andythenorth>
12:57:22  <Pikka> I see
12:57:40  <andythenorth> it's ugly in ottd scale
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13:00:31  <Wolf01> andythenorth: think of a way to revert an upgrade to town roads
13:00:45  <andythenorth> downgrade?
13:00:47  <andythenorth> o_O
13:01:04  <Wolf01> Yes, but no
13:02:19  <andythenorth> pikka railfreight or EWS? :P
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13:06:01  <Pikka> both look good to me :)
13:06:26  <andythenorth> me too, think the EWS sprite is better
13:06:36  <andythenorth> can't make so many realistic liveries with it tho
13:08:26  <andythenorth> dunno if that was ever a goal
13:11:31  <Wolf01> andythenorth: downgrade to a road compatible type? (remove check for electric type but must not be HAUL?)
13:12:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I don't know how reliably we can calculate compatibility
13:12:08  <andythenorth> it kind of boggles my brain tbh
13:12:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is good for this sort of thing
13:12:17  <andythenorth> or a diagram
13:12:37  <andythenorth> if it's *my* road I should be able to convert anything as I own it
13:12:57  <andythenorth> which players are saying isn't working for them afaict
13:13:05  <andythenorth> town roads, dunno
13:13:16  <Wolf01> There's a thing called powered (compatible) roadtypes, every road but HAUL has ROAD in it, so just check for ROAD
13:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i still think you should just check compatibility to ROAD and be done with it
13:17:14  <andythenorth> are there any reasons not to?
13:17:26  <andythenorth> what if ROAD is not provided in the game?
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13:23:57  <Wolf01> That's like saying RAIL, ELRL, MONO, MGLV aren't provided in the game and only provide Hyperloop which isn't compatible with anything
13:25:51  <andythenorth> ok so we can ignore it as a stupid concern?
13:26:01  <andythenorth> "spec says provide ROAD"?
13:27:26  <Wolf01> The only thing which could definitely solve the problem is to add the magic 5th bit Eddi proposed which tells the game that Company 1 converted the road but the road still belong to town... but then Company 2 wouldn't be able to convert it as it was already converted by another company and it's like it's built by the other company.. so why the 5th bit? just allow purchase town roads by conversion
13:28:20  <Wolf01> I'll convert town road, it's mine now, and I can also put one way signs too!
13:29:02  <andythenorth> who can build road stops?
13:29:11  <Wolf01> Everyone
13:29:32  <Wolf01> You can build roadstops on other company roads
13:30:53  <andythenorth> k
13:34:33  <Pikka> hmmm
13:34:49  <Pikka> remove all ownership of roads, anyone can modify anything. problem solved. :)
13:35:46  <andythenorth> remove NRT :)
13:35:52  <andythenorth> the whole concept is ridiculous tbh
13:35:57  <andythenorth> it's almost impossible to explain
13:38:03  <Wolf01> That could be an interesting suggestion
13:38:34  <Wolf01> Only keep the station ownership and let roads public
13:38:50  <Wolf01> 8 bits freed on map array
13:40:42  <andythenorth> are water tiles owned?
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13:41:15  <Wolf01> Only if you build them
13:41:32  <Wolf01> Like canals, aqueducts, locks
13:42:58  <TrueBrain> tnx _dp_ :)
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13:59:45  <andythenorth> did a class 70-ish thing
13:59:52  <andythenorth> 'ish' is much better for trains than 'is'
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14:01:39  <_dp_> TrueBrain, yw, thx for merging :)
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14:13:02  <Pikka> tres ish
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14:19:48  <Wolf01> And again the proof people can't read
14:20:49  <Wolf01> (me too)
14:23:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01: acs121 makes me want to quit TBH
14:23:19  <andythenorth> driven out by a 12 year old
14:23:30  <Wolf01> It makes me doing the opposite of what he says
14:23:42  <andythenorth> me too
14:23:48  <andythenorth> I am thinking more restrictions
14:24:03  <andythenorth> endlewss childish behaviour => I want to act like a baby
14:24:08  <Wolf01> But yes, I feel a bit restricted about not being able to convert ELRD to ROAD
14:24:17  <andythenorth> even in town?
14:24:19  <Wolf01> Yes
14:24:22  <andythenorth> hmm ok
14:24:25  <Wolf01> Yes, only in town
14:24:40  <Wolf01> If you make a new road you can convert it back and forth
14:25:09  <TrueBrain> Alberth: your reply on tt-forums made me giggle out loud :D
14:25:13  <TrueBrain> I am going to remember that example :D
14:25:24  <Alberth> :D
14:25:34  <Wolf01> :D
14:25:52  <andythenorth> is he/she actually just reporting a bug?
14:26:00  <andythenorth> I don't have an NRT build right
14:26:07  <andythenorth> now
14:26:15  <andythenorth> I could fix that :P
14:26:26  <Wolf01> No, there is no bug, it's working as we intended
14:26:38  <Wolf01> But we were too much restrictive
14:26:51  <andythenorth> what is this 'convert own roads' thing though
14:28:11  <Wolf01> So maybe we could get back on that and allow converting ROAD<->ELRD in towns, with some interpretations of "maybe", "converting", "get back", and "we"
14:28:54  <andythenorth> words
14:28:55  <andythenorth> many
14:29:06  <andythenorth> time pass quick drawing pixels :P
14:29:21  <andythenorth> I thought it was 14.00 :P
14:31:47  <andythenorth> hmm
14:31:53  <andythenorth> some of my sprites are very chibi / lego-ised
14:31:59  <andythenorth> others are less
14:36:23  <Wolf01> I need to start doing something like this... maybe still in Macross/Robotech theme
14:37:26  <andythenorth> nice
14:41:08  <frosch123> what? markdown uses trailing whitespace for formatting? :o
14:41:27  <peter1138> It what?
14:41:41  <frosch123>
14:41:50  <Wolf01> Yes, indentation mean different things
14:42:36  <andythenorth> md and rst are bonkers
14:42:51  <andythenorth> but eh
14:43:03  <peter1138> Whatever happened to the lego base sets? heh
14:43:06  <andythenorth> html is too hard for people so we have to have weird 'simpler' markup languages
14:43:23  <Wolf01> do I need to explain it in other words?
14:43:57  <Wolf01> I even tried it to be sure
14:44:30  <peter1138> HEh
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14:46:19  <andythenorth> I just explained to child #1 how to turn off wagon speed limits
14:46:29  <andythenorth> apparently that's "epic"
14:46:55  <Wolf01> Did you show him the fantastic world of grf parameters?
14:47:09  <Wolf01> Also peter1138 gave up and started playing simutrans
14:48:46  <andythenorth> because of wagon speed limits? :o
14:49:08  <peter1138> Why... why are there people walking on the roads?
14:49:37  <Wolf01> Because... why not?
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14:53:35  <peter1138> Ooh, a motor bike.
14:53:44  <peter1138> It was moving sideways, but still.
14:55:45  <Wolf01> Getting inspiration?
14:56:07  <andythenorth> inspired for new bugs to add? o_O
15:00:30  <andythenorth> thinner or fatter ugly train?
15:00:38  <andythenorth> IRL
15:16:37  <Pikka> fatter, I think
15:18:58  <andythenorth> too ugly thin?
15:19:38  <andythenorth> tried a fancy one
15:19:46  <andythenorth> don't like diagonal liveries
15:20:14  <andythenorth> should have just done a shed :P
15:20:23  <TrueBrain> and my Windows pain continues ... not all versions of Windows Server 2016 support Containers ... wwwwwwwwaaattthhhhh???!!!
15:21:13  <Pikka> it's an ugly loco in general... maybe it will grow on me
15:21:31  <Pikka> I've got it on my tracking table, so we'll see
15:22:01  <andythenorth> I want something chunky
15:22:09  <andythenorth> the rest of 2020 is all vectrons and traxx and things
15:22:15  <andythenorth> stupid bits of cheese
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15:22:33  <glx> TrueBrain: usually the most expensive one is ok
15:24:51  <peter1138> Hmm, I suppose I should be a Pikka-Patreon :p
15:25:07  <peter1138> And... my primary monitor is playing up.
15:25:12  <peter1138> Ah, now it appears.
15:26:16  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh no
15:32:16  <andythenorth> a bit more ish
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15:33:00  <andythenorth> not sure it's massively better than
15:35:22  <peter1138> Play at 1x, they all look good.
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15:41:02  <Wolf01> Agreed :P
15:41:07  <Wolf01> andythenorth: replied
15:46:41  <Alberth> peter-wolf :p
15:47:02  <Alberth> "I already have a patch for that"
15:47:04  <andythenorth> there's a frog in it too
15:47:24  <andythenorth> oh no frog in peter and the wold
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15:47:52  <Wolf01> Alberth: with the difference the patch is published and "works"
15:48:03  <andythenorth> fixed it
15:48:16  <andythenorth> I remembered some american engine sprites with same style
15:48:21  <andythenorth> even same RL manufacturer :P
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15:48:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: ^^^
15:48:53  <Wolf01> andythenorth: when could I play with it? I see hype trains everywhere
15:49:22  <Pikka> looks good :D
15:49:30  <Alberth> fair enough :)
15:49:30  <andythenorth> you can play with 54 trains complete of 183 (RAIL)
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15:52:06  <Wolf01> I want it complete
15:52:06  <Wolf01> :D
15:52:06  <andythenorth>
15:52:06  <andythenorth> working on it :P
15:52:06  <andythenorth>
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16:02:56  <Pikka> I guess that's a sign...
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16:22:49  <Wolf01> So, the real questio is: who stopped to exist? We or you?
16:22:58  <supermop> me
16:25:18  <peter1138> Oh, I lost the link for Wolf01's project file that makes things better
16:26:38  <Wolf01>
16:27:41  <peter1138> What did it need to be called and where does it go?
16:28:04  <peter1138> (Thanks)
16:28:32  <Wolf01> Like the project file but with .user added as second extension, same folder of the project
16:35:35  <peter1138> Yay, works, thanks.
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17:00:57  <Wolf01> andythenorth: wallyweb suggested one thing I really like: make downgrade cost rating, downgrade is a removal, right?
17:01:16  <andythenorth> intriguing
17:01:20  <Wolf01> You can downgrade as long as the town is happy
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17:03:23  <Wolf01> Ha, I just purchased 6 baseplates 48x48 at 9€/piece
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17:08:50  <peter1138> Ouch.
17:09:23  <Wolf01> It's half of the price!
17:09:32  <glx> ah
17:09:49  <Wolf01> And out of stock too
17:10:10  <Wolf01> Tomorrow you'll find them on bricklink at 30€/piece
17:10:57  <andythenorth> :P
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17:16:24  <Wolf01> Anyway, I should finish that RoadTypeIdentifier patch
17:20:51  <__ln__> should this be possible in ottd:
17:23:22  <TrueBrain> wauw .... I have a container running as a linux container does on Windows ...... *shocked*
17:23:28  <TrueBrain> now I have to download 10 GB of image ...
17:23:37  <TrueBrain> in fact, the docker image is bigger than my installation .... :o
17:23:50  <Wolf01> Oh, TrueBrain, another one for you:
17:24:28  <TrueBrain> so much Docker .. and nobody prepared me for the horror called Windows Docker :P
17:25:34  <Wolf01> peter1138: should I also prepare all the map array accessors for rtid or keep using the roadtype for now?
17:26:56  <andythenorth> meh class 60 sprite sucks
17:29:34  <andythenorth> V453000: yo
17:38:21  <LordAro> TrueBrain: wheee
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17:51:06  <peter1138> I dunno, separate?
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17:52:17  <peter1138> map array accessors presumably change map structure so
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17:52:40  <Wolf01> Yes, then later
17:53:11  <ZehMatt> is c++14 ok in OpenTTD?
17:53:28  <Wolf01> I need to find out why MergeRoadType now makes it build tram instead of road and vice versa
17:53:56  <LordAro> ZehMatt: no(t yet)
17:54:09  <ZehMatt> ;(
17:54:10  <ZehMatt> 11?
17:54:17  <LordAro> (will be once new compile farm is complete)
17:54:21  <LordAro> nope
17:54:34  <ZehMatt> so what can i use
17:54:41  <LordAro> 03
17:54:58  <ZehMatt> ;(
17:55:04  <LordAro> yyp
17:55:08  <LordAro> yup*
17:55:21  <ZehMatt> unique_ptr is a blessing
17:55:31  <Wolf01> Ok, is the UnpackIfValid
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17:56:41  <Wolf01> this->basetype = (RoadType)GB(data, 0, 1); mmmh
17:56:58  <LordAro> ZehMatt: well you could use auto_ptr!
17:57:01  <LordAro> (don't)
17:57:28  <ZehMatt> :p
17:57:47  <ZehMatt> lots of refactor potential
18:02:32  <LordAro> definitely
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18:28:33  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I appreciated the link to a very old issue, but what does it contribute? :)
18:29:42  <LordAro> not a lot
18:30:04  <LordAro> only that it was duplicated
18:30:07  <LordAro> and closed by andythenorth
18:30:08  <LordAro> :p
18:30:22  <TrueBrain> so you basically just added noise to an issue? :D
18:30:35  <LordAro> yup
18:30:43  <TrueBrain> I rather have you fix the issue :P
18:31:27  <LordAro> :p
18:31:44  <LordAro> saves having that small amount of discussion again, at least
18:32:12  <TrueBrain> well, I am more scared of the inverse .. people starting the discussion again :P
18:32:31  <LordAro> well no one did determine which was the correct solution
18:32:38  <TrueBrain> I did in the new ticket :)
18:33:21  <TrueBrain> just be careful we don't dwell in the past too much; we tend to get stuck :D
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18:39:32  <Wolf01> Why the fuck the UI passes a RoadTypes in p1/2 when it's building a single RoadType?
18:41:27  <_dp_> Let's keep the pace :)
18:48:01  <peter1138> Not need on the word "everyone"
18:48:24  <peter1138> "all"
18:49:15  <peter1138> er..
18:49:17  <peter1138> s/need/keen/
18:54:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123:
18:54:17  <TrueBrain> I stole some things from you :P
18:55:15  <Wolf01> Mmmh, this patch might be difficult without changing even the command calls on the UI
18:56:42  <Wolf01> And changing it on the UI means to change half of the UI code
19:02:18  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i should have legally protected the file name and document structure :)
19:02:28  <TrueBrain> YES! :P
19:02:34  <TrueBrain> I liked what I saw, so meh :)
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19:02:56  <Wolf01> Authenitcation <-
19:03:20  <TrueBrain> there are many more spelling errors, I promise you :)
19:03:24  <Wolf01> :P
19:04:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: no passworded companies in LAN games?
19:04:55  <Wolf01> You can always punch your friends in the nose if they join your company and griefs :P
19:05:08  <frosch123> do you have no siblings?
19:05:27  <Wolf01> Ahahaah, only a sister, and doesn't play OTTD
19:05:39  <frosch123> you mean she doesn't tell you :p
19:07:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: fair point; in that case I am going to suggest removing the password for a pin
19:07:22  <TrueBrain> so something like in the Company window you say: Put a PIN on it, and it tells you the PIN
19:07:28  <TrueBrain> this you can give to "friends"
19:07:41  <TrueBrain> but I would really really like to remove any hinting towards "passwords" from the game :)
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19:08:47  <LordAro> how much would break if NETWORK_REVISION_LENGTH were bumped up to 31 (chars)?
19:08:55  <LordAro> given it seems to be causing some warnings right now
19:09:06  <TrueBrain> means you need to bump the protocl version I think
19:09:12  <TrueBrain> hasnt been done in years I guess? :P
19:09:19  <LordAro> mm, pretty awkward
19:10:49  <LordAro> not since 2013, assuming that's what NETWORK_MASTER_SERVER_VERSION is
19:11:01  <TrueBrain> that is the protocol of the MS
19:11:07  <TrueBrain> you also have the protocol of client <-> server
19:11:14  <TrueBrain> I believe they also handshake the version?
19:11:44  <frosch123> LordAro: if you break that, please also break the gamelog :) it has a similar issue
19:12:14  <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, uses same constant
19:12:18  <LordAro> that's how i found it :)
19:12:49  <TrueBrain> LordAro: possibly better to help me replace MS :P
19:13:03  <LordAro> oh noh
19:13:27  <Wolf01> a step forward... building road stations switches ROAD with TRAM for reasons I tried to fix but needs a lot of work... or a better coder touch
19:17:00  <LordAro> ah, looks like NETWORK_GAME_INFO_VERSION
19:23:40  <LordAro> which was last changed...
19:23:43  <LordAro> quite some time ago
19:23:57  <peter1138> :-)
19:26:22  <peter1138>
19:26:27  <peter1138> Strange comment change
19:26:34  <peter1138> "if the current tile is a normal"
19:28:26  <_dp_> some tiles are such weirdos
19:29:57  <frosch123> we should switch the platform, github has no :p emoticon
19:34:59  <Wolf01> peter1138: ahah, I just copied the old code :P
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19:39:00  <Wolf01> Anyway, I used the UnpackIdValid function which is not for extracting from RoadTypes but from a packed RoadTypeIdentifier, I tried to change it a bit without success, not sure if this is the right way and instead I should change all the command calls in the UI to pass the right value
19:57:18  <Wolf01> peter1138: were you asking for pedestrians?
20:02:07  <peter1138> o_O
20:04:24  <__ln__> those pedestrians would never fit in those houses or cars
20:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need a station with a split platform...
20:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so 2 short trains can stop at one long platform...
20:05:37  <peter1138> peds shoulkd be like MB's newstations people
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20:12:23  <andythenorth> done up a 59 innit
20:12:50  <andythenorth>
20:14:20  <V453000> the top black is too dark imo
20:14:32  <V453000> otherwise nice :)
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20:19:31  <andythenorth> oh it's V453000 :)
20:19:40  <andythenorth> sprite was this
20:19:44  <andythenorth> but it has no interesting shapes
20:19:47  <andythenorth> just a box
20:20:13  <V453000> It just felt weird to me when I saw the black on the top be darker than the black of the wheel
20:20:41  <andythenorth> yeah I lighten it
20:21:01  <V453000> :P
20:21:22  <andythenorth>
20:21:34  <andythenorth> I had a grey bit previously but looked weird
20:22:41  <V453000> that feels better to be tbh
20:22:44  <V453000> to me*
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20:24:42  <andythenorth> k
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20:42:18  <peter1138> Hmm, wonder how to fix the dodgy mouse cursor in Windows.
20:42:39  <peter1138> Maybe we can switch to a HW cursor.
20:43:39  <peter1138> Window moving is ugly too.
20:45:19  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:47:08  <OutragedMetro> Can I get some help with the openTTD server? I got 2 instances I would like to run on one machine now I am trying  to use the -D -c "config file" thing in shortcut but its not loading the second cfg am I doing something wrong?
20:48:35  <OutragedMetro> "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD2\openttd.exe" -D -c "1.cfg"
20:49:23  <LordAro> where is 1.cfg?
20:49:36  <LordAro> and where is starting location?
20:49:44  <OutragedMetro> 1.cfg I have tried putting in the game main folder and documents folder
20:50:18  <LordAro> you'll either want to set the starting location in the shortcut, or use the full path of the config file
20:50:18  <peter1138> I think it would need to be in your current directory, or supply the full path.
20:50:20  <peter1138> heh
20:50:25  <LordAro> peter1138: ^5
20:50:43  <peter1138> Hmm, DirectX...
20:50:56  <OutragedMetro>  -c "C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\OpenTTD.cfg
20:51:02  <OutragedMetro> I have tried that as well
20:51:07  <OutragedMetro>  -c "C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\OpenTTD.cfg"
20:51:22  <LordAro> ...are you running as Administrator?
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20:51:32  <peter1138> Many do. Ew.
20:51:36  <ST2> well, while I tested another server controller software on windows (and was a server machine) - Windows acts always weird on there
20:51:37  <LordAro> (unrelated to OTTD, but don't do that)
20:51:49  <OutragedMetro> I am running it on a dedicated server
20:51:52  <OutragedMetro> yes I am...
20:52:07  <OutragedMetro> its a windows server
20:52:36  <ST2> and I'll always recommend dnt use or not even have a \Documents\OpenTTD\*cfg file
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20:53:08  <LordAro> OutragedMetro: even less reason to use *the* Administrator account
20:53:12  <LordAro> it's a huge security risk
20:53:30  <ST2> I second thet (LordAro's)
20:53:50  <LordAro> but regardless, what you've specified on the commandline *should* work
20:53:50  <OutragedMetro> But how might I fix the config issue?
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20:54:04  <LordAro> screenshot of the shortcut properties?
20:54:04  <OutragedMetro> its not working though no matter what I try
20:54:52  <ST2> OutragedMetro: 1st: put that game and proccesses running on other user
20:55:05  <ST2> that not Administratir
20:55:34  <ST2> that would be the start
20:55:36  <OutragedMetro> it shouldn't prevent the CFG issue though ST2 and uploading screens
20:56:10  <ST2> as told by LordAro, it's by security reasons
20:56:39  <OutragedMetro>
20:56:52  <OutragedMetro> I get that but still should not prevent cfg from running
20:57:41  <LordAro> try running that from the cmd, any messages?
20:57:54  <ST2> well, I dnt see a .cfg pointer
20:58:05  <OutragedMetro> running the cfg from command line?
20:58:16  <LordAro> run the whole "Target"
20:58:27  <LordAro> might spit out an error
21:00:06  <ST2> LordAro: in Windows it's easier to create shortcuts - and errors still come out on it
21:00:08  <OutragedMetro> Running from CMD did nothing
21:00:22  <OutragedMetro> still noththing
21:00:28  <OutragedMetro> *nothing
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21:02:55  <OutragedMetro> What I am trying to do is have one instance Temperate and the other sub-arctic
21:03:56  <LordAro> without actually having a windows install in front of me, i can't help any further
21:04:15  <LordAro> (well, technically i do have a windows install in front of me, but i'm using linux right now :) )
21:04:24  <ST2> OutragedMetro: when noe works, make different OpenTTD game forlders, each one with it's own cfg file
21:04:30  <ST2> none*
21:04:43  <OutragedMetro> I tried that to ST2 but it loaded the my docs
21:04:46  <OutragedMetro> config
21:04:55  <ST2> delete those
21:05:37  <ST2> those came from the the instalation, and you run the game as Administrator, with GUI
21:08:52  <ST2> OutragedMetro: copy the OpenTTD instalation folder, where is the openttd.exe
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21:09:21  <ST2> OutragedMetro: make an empty openttd.cfg file there
21:09:28  <ST2> run that exe
21:09:34  <ST2> and edit settings
21:10:49  <OutragedMetro> so put an empty config in the folders? or in my doccuments?
21:10:56  <ST2> I suggest to make a 1st run, only to openttd.cfg file be filled with default settings
21:11:16  <OutragedMetro> I did that and got one
21:11:17  <ST2> and after, edit openttd.cfg with settings you want
21:11:35  <OutragedMetro> it works to get the 1st instance up but not the second
21:11:45  <ST2> [22:10:48] <OutragedMetro> so put an empty config in the folders? or in my doccuments?  << read above
21:12:21  <ST2> and get rid of my doccuments stuff
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21:12:34  <OutragedMetro> I got rid of them completely
21:13:04  <ST2> so, make an empty openttd.cfg file where opentd.exe is
21:14:00  <ST2> btw, can you see file extentions?
21:14:16  <ST2> cfg, txt, exe... and so on?
21:15:03  <Thedarkb-X40> I'm fairly sure UFOs are broken.
21:15:06  <OutragedMetro> found my issue its arctic not sub-arctic in the config
21:15:44  <ST2> well, climates are simple as this: from 0 to 3
21:16:12  <ST2> there's no need for that words
21:19:57  <peter1138> Urgh, video issues even worse with SDL on Windows :p
21:20:45  <Thedarkb-X40> OpenTTD runs well on old processors but it needs a fair bit of RAM.
21:22:25  <ST2> peter1138: if server started properly as dedicated, even if on a windows machine, will rul without issues
21:22:44  <peter1138> Pardon?
21:22:59  <ST2> what I said ^^
21:23:20  <peter1138> I don't know what you are talking about.
21:23:51  <ST2> peter1138: we, at BTPro and n-ice have a screenshot thing (can be see on BTPro page) - that it's kinda tricky
21:24:15  <Thedarkb-X40> peter1138, Just talking to myself.
21:24:58  <glx> peter1138: just use GDI, SDL is a wrapper around it anyway
21:25:21  <peter1138> glx, SDL is meant to use directx :S
21:25:50  <glx> dunno it it does it for 2D stuff
21:26:37  <peter1138> glx, anyway, with the windows drivers, I get glitching :(
21:26:41  <peter1138> temporal glitching
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21:27:26  <ST2> peter1138: glitching where?
21:27:29  <peter1138> Probably since Windows 8, I guess.
21:27:37  <peter1138> Since the display model changed.
21:28:28  <ST2> peter1138: if I may ask, what OS you use?
21:28:32  <peter1138> Windows 10.
21:28:46  <ST2> ok, I have W10 too
21:28:57  <peter1138> Amazing.
21:29:04  <ST2> on a couple computers I use
21:29:33  <ST2> and I have no issues or, what you say... glitching's
21:30:19  <ST2> and neither on the W7 computers I have
21:30:25  <peter1138> Basically the screen updates before OpenTTD has finished updating the screen, as it were.
21:30:46  <peter1138> So for instance the mouse cursor partially disappears before it's fully drawn.
21:30:49  <ST2> isn't it a software issue?
21:30:51  <peter1138> Same with Windows.
21:31:20  <peter1138> There's no vsync in involved, so it's inevitable.
21:32:34  <ST2> peter1138: I'm on a desktop now. I have a laptop, W10 too, when going to pub
21:32:51  <ST2> I use W7 at work, and all is fine
21:32:54  <peter1138> That's great.
21:33:05  <peter1138> But not really relevant.
21:33:48  <ST2> well peter1138, what's the real problem?
21:33:57  <peter1138> 22:30 < peter1138> Basically the screen updates before OpenTTD has finished updating the screen, as it were.
21:34:00  <peter1138> 22:30 < peter1138> So for instance the mouse cursor partially disappears before it's fully drawn.
21:34:41  <ST2> and you use W10?
21:34:47  <peter1138> Really.
21:34:47  <ST2> and that happens?
21:35:07  <michi_cc> peter1138: Whatever it is, it has to be related to the hardware/software you're running. I don't see this effect, so it can't be a universal W10 problem.
21:35:15  <LordAro> is this with sdl on windows?
21:35:28  <peter1138> LordAro, no, GDI.
21:35:32  <LordAro> ah right
21:35:34  <LordAro> carry on
21:35:48  <peter1138> Although SDL is worse, but we don't support that out of the box.
21:36:03  <ST2> as michi_cc said: it's a specific issue
21:36:21  <peter1138> michi_cc, i'm sure it's not universal. I don't think running nvidia gpu drivers is particularly uncommon though.
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21:37:16  <ST2> peter1138: I have nvidia gpu drivers, that updates each week or so
21:37:27  <LordAro> i'll have to check when i'm next on windows
21:37:28  <ST2> and I dnt have problems with it
21:37:59  <andythenorth> ok we won't fix anything then :P
21:38:16  <andythenorth> simples
21:38:23  <ST2> andythenorth: fix FIRS, please ^^
21:38:37  <andythenorth> such FIRS
21:38:39  <andythenorth> what broke now?
21:38:59  <ST2> players brains got broke xD
21:40:12  <ST2> I kept our servers with FIRS 3.0.5, because other releases broke something - well, you got the complaints, I bet xD
21:40:41  <peter1138> michi_cc, it's nothing changed in OpenTTD either. 0.4.5 has the same issue for me.
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21:41:09  <peter1138> michi_cc, basically we need a modern driver that uses compositing and surfaces ;)
21:41:15  <peter1138> opengl etc
21:46:52  <LordAro> yeah, if only someone had done that
21:47:03  <LordAro> (also, lol "opengl" "modern")
21:47:28  <peter1138> IKR
21:47:58  <peter1138> Anyway, I can make the game beautiful again by forcing it to redraw the whole screen every time.
21:48:01  <peter1138> But... urgh.
21:48:15  <ST2> has anyone asked peter1138's settings?
21:48:17  <peter1138> At least I have enough CPU for that ;)
21:48:26  <ST2> maybe are special ^^
21:49:50  <peter1138> Ah shit, I forgot the "make_peter1138s_graphics_shit = true" setting in openttd.cfg
21:50:26  <andythenorth> some platforms the graphics are fucked
21:50:34  <andythenorth> more than they used to be afaict
21:50:39  <andythenorth> I keep seeing it denied
21:50:42  <andythenorth> but eh
21:50:53  <andythenorth> also 'buy a better computer' isn't helping
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21:56:28  <peter1138> i7-8700K isn't sloggish ;)
21:57:12  <andythenorth> when I buy new computers, ottd tends to get worse
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21:58:49  <ST2> andythenorth: may I add, that the use of different FIRS economies with the same newgrf's (basically Iron Horse and RoadHog) can lead to many players go wild
21:59:05  <andythenorth> wait for Sam :P
21:59:39  <ST2> I love you man :D
22:00:13  <andythenorth> excitement will be off the scale
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22:01:15  <ST2> well, if you dnt mind... fix FIRS first ^^
22:01:31  <ST2> but on the rest, yup, as you said :)
22:01:40  <andythenorth> the only thing broken in 3.0.7 afaik is the version number
22:03:33  <ST2> [23:01:40] <andythenorth> the only thing broken in 3.0.7 afaik is the version number  <<-- yeah, and it's enough that when we (BTPro) advertised the FIRS update to it, players complained
22:03:55  <ST2> that's why all now back to 3.0.5
22:04:43  *** CompuDesktop has joined #openttd
22:04:52  <ST2> in other words, no onw is using now FIRS 3.0.7
22:05:12  <ST2> they're using that weird numbering
22:05:49  <ST2> oh well, just saying ^^
22:05:54  <andythenorth> oops
22:05:59  <andythenorth> think I just broke the FIRS repo
22:06:10  <andythenorth> yup
22:06:17  <andythenorth> nvm, no FIRS release tonight
22:06:34  <ST2> andythenorth: no worries ^^
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22:11:14  <andythenorth> ok fixed that
22:11:18  <andythenorth> pushed 3.0.8 FIRS
22:11:43  <ST2> andythenorth: Thank you very much :)
22:11:57  <andythenorth> np
22:14:19  <glx>  <peter1138> i7-8700K isn't sloggish ;) <-- ah your cpu is too fast :)
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22:15:47  <glx> and drawing is threaded
22:18:04  <andythenorth> when I got an i7 ottd drawing tanked
22:18:18  <andythenorth> ffwd doesn't
22:18:50  <LordAro> :(
22:19:22  <glx> peter1138: tried no_thread or no_threads driver param ?
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