Log for #openttd on 24th April 2018:
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06:36:55  <Pikka> yikes
06:41:21  <peter1138> Yokes
06:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ... can't think of a pun to put here...
06:49:38  <Pikka> something about eggs or oxen, probably
07:00:30  <andythenorth> slopey train problems
07:00:36  <andythenorth> I like flat trains
07:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks better than yesterday when the yellow front looked like it's sticking out
07:02:00  <V453000> andythenorth: I actually like it a lot
07:02:25  <andythenorth> I might steal the vectron from NARS 2 for one engine
07:02:32  <andythenorth> I have to do 4 of these slopey things
07:02:38  <andythenorth> and make them look different
07:02:47  <Pikka> looks good :D sloped fronts in the _ views are one of the hardest things to draw imo
07:03:22  <Pikka> and the subtler the slope the harder it is
07:06:24  <andythenorth> did an electro diesel one too
07:07:06  <andythenorth> this is tricky shape for 1x
07:07:24  <V453000> it doesn't have to be exact you know :P
07:07:48  <andythenorth> no
07:07:51  <andythenorth> I know :P
07:10:33  * peter1138 ponders buying Locomotion on Steam.
07:10:50  <Pikka> eww
07:10:57  <peter1138> IKR
07:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i think someone gave me a locomotion CD once
07:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> never touched it
07:11:35  <peter1138> It has a very subdued palette.
07:12:26  <peter1138> And misses useful stuff like working signals.
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07:12:43  <peter1138> How do I make this window shrink automatically?
07:12:55  <__ln__> it also has useful stuff that ottd doesn't
07:13:16  <peter1138> Of course.
07:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty satisfied with the signals in TF
07:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> only thing about TF i actively dislike is that it disables achievements with mods
07:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (there are of course minor annoyances all over the place)
07:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (and it's still missing a planning mode)
07:28:03  <andythenorth> bbbl
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07:42:30  <peter1138> Anyone have a copy of the vehicle group icons without the overlays?
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07:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not even a clue what icons you mean
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07:50:55  <peter1138> Icons on the vehicle group UI.
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07:57:15  <peter1138> Do you, andythenorth?
07:57:36  <andythenorth> possibly
07:57:49  <peter1138> Great!
07:58:10  <andythenorth> or I have to cut them out
07:58:42  <andythenorth> as icons go, they're not the best of the best
07:58:46  <andythenorth> that yellow star, what is it?
07:59:08  <peter1138> "new"
07:59:11  <peter1138> But. Hmm.
08:00:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: mines a P2
08:00:18  <andythenorth> I'm not doing cheese steamers
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08:09:38  <peter1138> ukrs3 looks nice
08:24:51  <andythenorth> UKRSn+1
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08:38:17  <Pikka> mmm, cheese
08:38:40  <peter1138> Cheese please louise.
08:39:26  <peter1138> andythenorth, I pushed an update (rebased so you need to drop local branch first)
08:39:40  <peter1138> There's a "slight" issue with it :p
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08:50:18  <andythenorth> did it gain shared vehicles commands? o_O
08:50:33  <andythenorth> oh no they're in trunk too
08:50:34  <andythenorth> nvm
08:50:42  * andythenorth bbl
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11:16:34  <LordAro> pretty sure this was justified
11:17:31  <__ln__> an integrated web browser?
11:27:00  <SpComb> then you could use asm.js to play openttd inside openttd?
11:27:36  <SpComb> but probably for like NewGRF READMEs on bananas
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11:32:56  <peter1138> When do we get NewMap?
11:34:28  <__ln__> are you talking about the thing that was previously talked about in ~2005?
11:35:37  <SpComb> I would like bendy 3D bridges
11:37:45  <__ln__> i need underground tunnels
11:38:31  <peter1138> Yeah.
11:39:25  <__ln__> fair enough, regular tunnels are underground by definition. but i mean... below sea-level, and also stations in tunnels, and so on.
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11:51:51  <SpComb>
11:52:00  <SpComb> openttd just isn't moddable enough :P
11:53:26  <SpComb> wtf, the latter is even "This is an official mod from the Transport Fever developer team"
12:00:02  <peter1138> Do I need to get myself Transport Fever next time it's on salae?
12:00:05  <peter1138> And sale.
12:30:30  <V453000> just go bike instead :P
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12:34:03  <peter1138> Probably a good idea.
12:36:31  <V453000> also I finally made my resizing python script work with drag&dropping pictures/folders onto it ... I haven't worked on the trains for months and I completely forgot what format of a command does it want to eat ... apparently rewriting it was the easiest solution :d
12:36:34  <V453000> automation ._.
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13:54:42  <andythenorth> o/
13:54:58  <peter1138> Maybe I should get Skyrim VR.
13:55:57  <Alberth> o/
13:58:07  <andythenorth> done up a Turtle
13:58:09  <andythenorth>
13:58:14  <andythenorth> fast pax diesel engine
13:58:22  <andythenorth> which livery?
13:59:07  <andythenorth> (the choices are just 1CC + 2CC or swapped)
14:00:38  <andythenorth> "mainly 2cc" matches the coaches
14:00:50  <andythenorth> "mainly 1cc" matches the other engines in this tech tree
14:04:03  <peter1138> Well...
14:04:21  <peter1138> All of them :p
14:05:20  <andythenorth> group livery UI only allows one color choice right?
14:05:26  <andythenorth> no split engines / arbitrary wagons
14:05:33  <andythenorth> or power types and stuff
14:06:59  <peter1138> Yeah, just one per group.
14:07:23  <peter1138> I did mention it could possibly have the whole normal thing per group, but that would be overkill and silly.
14:07:43  <peter1138> But now you mention it, someone will complain ;p
14:08:08  <andythenorth> the normal thing per group is fine
14:08:15  <peter1138> And that would require my UI to be completely changed again.
14:08:15  <andythenorth> it's just that the implementation is weird :)
14:09:00  <peter1138> g->livery[LS_END]? o_O
14:09:17  <andythenorth> I'd have to look that up :P
14:15:27  <peter1138> Might as well have individually assignable colours per vehicle ;p
14:15:45  <andythenorth> hurgh :P
14:15:49  <andythenorth> well
14:15:51  <peter1138> Hmm, though having the whole set of liveries per group wouldn't make sense.
14:15:59  <peter1138> As groups have vehicle types.
14:16:06  <andythenorth> yeah, some options would be meaningless
14:16:16  <peter1138> Although it would be the easier way to implement it.
14:16:47  <andythenorth> it's potato / potato to me
14:16:56  <andythenorth> whatever's simplest to implement
14:17:00  <andythenorth> one livery is fine
14:17:14  <andythenorth> the current set of liveries is silly, but kind of useful
14:17:32  <peter1138> Actually the UI changes would be simpler ;?
14:17:33  <peter1138> :/
14:17:37  <andythenorth> hmm do I have the right branch from your fork?
14:17:44  <andythenorth> group-livery
14:18:16  <FLHerne> Anyone review a 1-line NML patch? :P
14:18:55  <FLHerne> Boolean conversions only occur with logical ops, where they're generated implicitly
14:19:02  <andythenorth> I reviewed it and discovered I don't understand it :)
14:19:09  <andythenorth> I can't commit that :)
14:19:14  <andythenorth> maybe Alberth
14:19:20  <FLHerne> The current code turns !foo into !!!(foo) which turns into !!!(!!(foo)) etc
14:20:39  <FLHerne> So the end result is that running nmlc --nml=... in a loop results in an infinitely large file consisting mostly of !!() :P
14:21:04  <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah, if you scrapped it and repulled.
14:21:10  <peter1138> (i rebased)
14:21:15  <andythenorth> I trashed the repo and recloned
14:21:21  <peter1138> kk
14:21:32  <peter1138> there's no button in the group window any more
14:21:35  <peter1138> it's all in company colours
14:21:46  <andythenorth> wow
14:21:48  <peter1138> mainly cos i didn't want to have to design an icon :p
14:21:51  <peter1138> and it's broken
14:21:57  <peter1138> but not massively
14:23:01  <andythenorth> if I drew an icon, button on group window could open that livery window, focussed on correct grop
14:23:03  <andythenorth> group *
14:23:23  <peter1138> Could do.
14:24:36  <andythenorth> wow
14:24:40  <andythenorth> how much wrong in one post?
14:24:46  <andythenorth> C++ is outdated and slow
14:24:54  <andythenorth> newgrf is the cause of all the performance issues in the game
14:25:01  <andythenorth> changing language makes specs unnecessary
14:25:43  <LordAro> i'm curious what he thinks would be a better language
14:26:13  <andythenorth> I'm curious about how much wrong can be in one post
14:26:30  <andythenorth> I mean there are people who have obvious mental health issues who can top that easily
14:26:44  <andythenorth> but that's high up the list for recent years
14:26:55  <andythenorth> oops I should be elsewhere
14:26:57  <andythenorth> BIAB
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14:28:40  <peter1138> I don't even think NewGRF is particularly slow. Just that particular case.
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14:45:12  <Alberth> just a bit inconvenient interface
14:45:22  <Alberth> but there are more such points in the spec
14:46:59  <Alberth> FLHerne: that patch won't fly, boolean should get limited to 0 or 1, which happens with !!
14:47:34  <FLHerne> Alberth: Yes, but the parser inserts those implicitly when parsing logical ops
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14:48:05  <FLHerne> !!(foo) appearing in the source still gets parsed and saved fine
14:48:35  <Alberth> I am not sure it's a problem, there is code for simplifying expressions too
14:49:06  <FLHerne> Alberth: Without this patch, we read !!(foo) and write it as !!!(!!!(foo))
14:49:32  <Alberth> what if you don't have a logical op? eg use it as integer index, for example
14:50:24  <FLHerne> The same happens
14:50:36  <Alberth> without !! as you propose
14:50:44  <FLHerne> 'Boolean' doesn't have any rule directly in the parser
14:51:00  <FLHerne> !! is always parsed as LogicalNot
14:51:08  <Alberth> integers are also booleans, like in C
14:51:21  <FLHerne> Yes, I know
14:51:23  <Alberth> 0 is false, anything else is true
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14:51:54  <Alberth> but that breaks if you use a boolean in an integer context
14:52:06  <Alberth> as it must be 0 or 1 then
14:52:13  <FLHerne> Yes, but that's also implicit...
14:52:38  <FLHerne> Hm, I need to re-explain
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14:54:03  <FLHerne> To the parser,  !value means LogicalNot(Boolean(value))
14:54:10  <Alberth> if you can detect the child expression to be a boolean with those limits in place already, it could work
14:54:20  <Alberth> yes
14:54:31  <FLHerne> !!value is just that, nested
14:54:34  <Alberth> and !! means (x) ? 1 : 0
14:54:45  <Alberth> which is not the same as x
14:55:04  <Alberth> namely for all values x other than 0 and 1
14:55:11  <FLHerne> Yes, but it doesn't mean that as a different symbol
14:55:25  <peter1138> x != 0
14:55:48  <Alberth> (((..(x != 0) != 0) != 0) ... )
14:56:42  <FLHerne> If you actually write !!foo in the source, it's parsed as LogicalNot(Boolean(LogicalNot(Boolean(<foo>))))
14:56:55  <Alberth> yes
14:56:58  <FLHerne> The conversion is implied by the existence of !
14:57:21  <FLHerne> So when writing out the AST, adding /extra/ !!()s for the conversions is never necessary
14:57:43  <peter1138> So, er... what patch are you talking about?
14:57:45  <FLHerne> (fwiw, this is also true for the other operators that cause int->bool conversions
14:57:47  <FLHerne> )
14:57:58  <Alberth> for the second time, it's not, for the first time, when your child is "<foo>", it is
14:58:33  <FLHerne> Alberth: I think you're confused about what the change changes :P
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14:58:54  <Alberth> that's quite possible :)
14:59:12  <FLHerne> It doesn't stop the parser creating Boolean nodes in the AST, it just stops them being written out
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15:00:20  <FLHerne> Because they're /always/ implicit
15:00:53  <Alberth> if a boolean mode is "2", then writing out "2" and "!!2" is not the same, so where is the !! added for the child then?
15:01:01  <Alberth> mode=node
15:01:02  <FLHerne> An 'explicit' boolean conversion is parsed as a pair of logicalnots, which then implicitly get the Boolean nodes added
15:01:12  <FLHerne> Alberth: By the logicalnots
15:01:25  <Alberth> ah, ok
15:01:25  <FLHerne> peter1138: It's
15:02:01  <Alberth> so an "assert isinstance(expr, LogicalNot)" would hold?
15:03:07  <FLHerne> No, implicit bool conversions also get generated for the other logical ops
15:03:28  <Alberth> ok, add the other logical operators too :)
15:04:00  <Alberth> assert(expr, (LogicalNot, LogicalAnd, LogicalOr))
15:04:07  <Alberth> +isinstance
15:04:11  <peter1138> Ah, nml. 'Nother Magic Language
15:04:53  <FLHerne> Alberth: No, it's the other way round
15:04:56  <Alberth> for me, NewGRF is the magic language :)
15:05:22  <FLHerne> Alberth: The /children/ of logicalops get Boolean conversion nodes, because that makes sense :P
15:05:39  <FLHerne> Really, I think it's a code-gen hack rather than a proper syntax tree
15:05:43  <FLHerne> Well, no
15:05:46  <FLHerne> It makes sense
15:06:57  <Alberth> well, not sure, a logicalop could handle arbitrary integer values as input, unlike anything surrounding a logical expression which is not aware of it being a boolean
15:07:23  <FLHerne> Anyway, my reasoning is:
15:07:42  <FLHerne>  - There is no Boolean symbol in the tokenizer/parser
15:07:58  <Alberth> sounds likely
15:08:11  <FLHerne>  - Therefore all Booleans appearing in the AST must have been implicitly created while parsing other nodes
15:09:02  <FLHerne>  - Therefore the parent node must imply the existence of the conversion
15:09:28  <Alberth> code is also created at a later stage, while simplifying an expression, or rewriting to a form that you can actually implement
15:09:35  <FLHerne>  - Therefore we don't need to write out extra syntax for the conversion, because we know it's there
15:10:32  <FLHerne> That's a point, I need to check if that can happen
15:11:30  <andythenorth> V453000:
15:12:00  <V453000> wotwot
15:13:19  <peter1138> Alberth, I don't think anyone's called NewGRF a language before ;)
15:14:01  <andythenorth> I wanted to make a new thread for that discussion
15:14:09  <andythenorth> it's a bit unfair on JGR
15:14:14  <peter1138> :)
15:14:27  <andythenorth> pisses me off when threads about my stuff take a 2 or 3 page diversion into blah blha blah
15:15:16  <FLHerne> Alberth: Hrm, I think you're right :-/
15:16:12  <andythenorth> such train
15:16:13  <FLHerne> It does look possible that the other nodes could get reduced away, although I haven't actually been able to make an example
15:16:34  <Alberth> expression rewriting in nml is horrible :p
15:16:52  <andythenorth> nml is horrible :)
15:17:00  <andythenorth> we should replace it
15:17:03  <andythenorth> with something fast
15:17:07  <andythenorth> maybe bytecode?
15:17:16  <peter1138> Squirrel.
15:17:21  <peter1138> Wait wait.
15:17:23  <peter1138> ini files
15:17:35  <peter1138> And an undo knob.
15:17:37  <Alberth> I once tried to avoid rewriting expressions that have been rewritten already, but even deciding an expression node is not modified anywhere is already too complicated to decide, I found
15:17:51  <andythenorth> peter1138: an MP undo knob
15:17:58  <Alberth> yaml is much nicer
15:18:00  <andythenorth> and a redo knob
15:18:07  <FLHerne> Bleh, and there's no sane way to look at the parent node to make sure it implies the conversion...
15:18:14  <Alberth> andy: undo the undo :p
15:18:34  <peter1138> I'm not sure I've ever looked at nml code properly.
15:18:40  <peter1138> I don't know the structure of it.
15:18:41  <andythenorth> "no need"
15:18:56  <FLHerne> Oh, I can see a way to fix that, but it'll be horrible :P
15:19:03  <andythenorth> the action 0 and action 2 map in nml
15:19:21  <andythenorth> the action 3 is hidden away
15:19:35  <andythenorth> action 1 kind of maps
15:19:59  <andythenorth> there's a lot of magic, what has been done is quite an achivement
15:19:59  <Alberth> the problem of newgrf are this riddles in action X sentences
15:20:10  <Alberth> no way to understand them
15:20:12  <peter1138> varaction nonsense too
15:20:21  <andythenorth> I have a whole saved transcript "the trouble with nml"
15:20:39  <andythenorth> but apart from being terrible at bytecode, nfo never troubled me
15:20:42  <andythenorth> and I am not a programmer
15:20:45  <peter1138> The concept of having to ask what sprite to draw everything time is flawed, imho.
15:20:59  <peter1138> -thing
15:21:03  <andythenorth> is there really no caching?
15:21:20  <andythenorth> does it run the chain every time the graphics are drawn?
15:21:37  <Alberth> cache implies you know the decision ahead
15:21:46  <andythenorth> but mostly the decision doesn't need to be made
15:21:54  <Alberth> but it's arbitrary decision code
15:21:57  <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, becuase, you know, something might have changed.
15:22:10  <andythenorth> yes, the prototype might be blue on Tuesdays in 1931
15:22:12  <peter1138> like those animated steamers.
15:22:14  <andythenorth> and it might be Tuesday
15:22:29  <peter1138> where the newgrf decides which frame to draw every time
15:22:31  <andythenorth> animation is the valid special case
15:22:47  <peter1138> even that doesn't need to ask every time, if it's well designed
15:22:49  <andythenorth> but there are other ways to do animation
15:22:54  <andythenorth> animation can have defined frames
15:22:55  <peter1138> (supply a list of frames at the start)
15:22:57  <peter1138> quite
15:23:02  <andythenorth> exactly
15:23:06  <andythenorth> just cycle them
15:23:06  <FLHerne> Would it be possible to scan the callback beforehand, to see which variables it depends on?
15:23:13  <andythenorth> like a walk cycle loop
15:23:24  <peter1138> I'm not sure but I think varaction processing is probably quicker in ttdpatch too.
15:23:26  <FLHerne> (and then only run ones where the deps could plausibly have changed)
15:23:37  <andythenorth> do we even know that newgrf is slow?
15:23:37  <peter1138> Far less support code around it.
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15:23:54  <peter1138> It's not the slowest thing.
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15:24:32  <Alberth> without assuming values, you're looking at branching into every "if", which explodes quite fast to much of the newgrf, probably
15:24:45  <peter1138> Retrying industry placement may be slow but that's not inherently newgrf's fault.
15:25:23  <Alberth> bigger points of pain is vehicle replacement, imho
15:25:32  <peter1138> Do we get the sprite for every vehicle, or just the visible ones?
15:25:41  <Alberth> industries are not created often enough
15:25:45  <andythenorth> industry placement is faster if one doesn't ECS
15:25:57  <andythenorth> maybe it shouldn't be George's responsibility
15:26:02  <andythenorth> but it is, and he's made it slow
15:26:03  <Alberth> no idea, my guess is just what needs to be drawn
15:26:05  <peter1138> I don't ECS :D
15:26:17  <andythenorth> ECS is slow to place industries because the rules are far too fine-grained
15:26:36  <andythenorth> arguably the mod framework should defend authors against that
15:26:42  <andythenorth> but then it would have to be very restricted in scope
15:26:51  <peter1138> Alberth, I have a suspicion it uses the dimenions of the sprite to fill a hash to determine what is on-screen.
15:26:55  <andythenorth> if authors want control, then they have to be responsible
15:26:58  <peter1138> Not looked for ages though.
15:27:06  <andythenorth> there are lots and lots of shit minecraft mods that will cause lag or crashes
15:27:15  <peter1138> I remember writing a patch that would cache the max possible size for a vehicle and always use that.
15:27:21  <peter1138> But, you know, patches...
15:27:34  <andythenorth> now they can be unfinished branches ;)
15:27:39  <peter1138> Yes ;)
15:27:44  <andythenorth> or stash :P
15:27:49  <andythenorth> put em in gist :P
15:27:57  * andythenorth must to go elsewhere again 
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15:28:02  <peter1138> I've had minecraft packs that just flat out refused to load because 8GB wasn't enough RAM.
15:29:17  <LordAro> minecraft isn't exactly known for its efficient resource usage
15:29:48  <Sacro> I find 10-12 is enough for modpacks
15:31:19  <peter1138> I have 32GB now so that should be enough.
15:36:27  <FLHerne> Alberth: Any idea if nmlop.AND not having returns_boolean is an omission or means something?
15:36:33  <FLHerne> (OR ditto)
15:37:12  <FLHerne> Oh
15:37:14  <FLHerne> Wrong one?
15:38:09  <FLHerne> Ah, no, I see
15:38:12  <FLHerne> That's clever :P
15:39:06  <FLHerne> ( | and || are actually the same operator, and converting the args to bool in the latter case makes it behave in the logical way)
15:40:04  <Alberth> it has been a few years I last looked at that code :)
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16:21:27  <peter1138> Yay Simutrans.
16:21:56  <peter1138> I clicked on the "Net work" icon and the whole thing froze.
16:29:16  <Pikka> o/
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16:31:58  <peter1138> Apparently my company has a colour, but I've not seen it anywhere :p
16:34:30  <FLHerne> Alberth: Less of a big-hammer approach:
16:35:29  <FLHerne> (also makes logical ORs and ANDs more readable even without bool conversions)
16:37:15  <FLHerne> I spent a while trying to add a `to_string_func` to Operator, but that doesn't work because Operator.to_string takes /strings/ for the exprs so can't tell whether it's a logical op
16:37:40  <FLHerne> (and it wouldn't be straightforward to change that)
16:38:33  <Alberth> I don't have the code in my head, so can't quite comment on that :)
16:39:11  <Alberth> I guess "is_boolean" is different from isinstance(expr, Boolean) ?
16:39:58  <Alberth> oh the former is also defined on operators of course
16:43:02  <Alberth> your 'not' code is the same as unpack, move the function to a more global level, and reuse?
16:46:03  <FLHerne> Probably a good idea
16:47:47  <FLHerne> I'm not really familiar with nml structure, any suggestions?
16:48:04  <FLHerne> Perhaps I should just make it a staticmethod of Boolean
16:48:09  <Alberth> I was pondering why both classes are not in the same file :p
16:48:49  <FLHerne> binary vs unary ops, I think
16:49:06  <Alberth> ah, makes somewhat sense, I guess
16:49:11  <FLHerne> Well, I don't know why anyone cared
16:49:50  <Alberth> y3xo did, no doubt
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17:02:07  <Wolf01> Moin
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17:02:57  <Wolf01> Wow, for the first time I made 249M points on pinball
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17:03:39  <LordAro> Wolf01: nice
17:03:48  <LordAro> i don't think i ever got more than 10M
17:04:09  <Wolf01> It took me half of the lunch break and some time now, continuous multiballs, I had 5 balls for the entire game
17:04:40  <Wolf01> (after losing 2 of the 3 balls at the beginning)
17:04:58  <Alberth> o/
17:07:03  <frosch123> evenink
17:07:19  <peter1138> isn't it
17:08:25  <LordAro> Wolf01: how are you playing? I hope you don't have an XP machine still...
17:09:14  <peter1138> How do I force a window to shrink? :S
17:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've even thought of the existence of pinball over the last ~12 years
17:11:02  <frosch123> peter1138: ReInit()
17:11:19  <Wolf01> LordAro: on the phone
17:13:19  <peter1138> Hmm, that is being called.
17:15:04  <FLHerne> Alberth: Bleh, writing concise docstrings is hard
17:15:15  <Wolf01> peter1138: I'm going to retry abusing the UnpackIfValid to extract the RoadType from RoadTypes... or you say is it better to pass the RoadType on the function call?
17:15:37  <peter1138> Don't abuse it, that's why it doesn't work :S
17:16:13  <FLHerne> Hm, I should add a comment to binop too
17:16:28  <FLHerne> nml doesn't have enough, but that's not an excuse not to add them :P
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17:16:51  <Wolf01> Ok, then I'll remove that, pass directly the RoadType on the function call, and reimplement UnpackIfValid when we'll add subtypes
17:17:13  <Wolf01> But this mean double change on the same spot
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17:18:45  <Wolf01> Or, I'll use rtid::Pack() on the function call too, which does nothing else than passing a RoadType in the current state
17:19:01  <Wolf01> So I don't have to change the function calls later
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17:20:23  <Wolf01> I'll rearrange the p2 bits too
17:21:02  <Wolf01> What do you think?
17:25:28  <FLHerne> Alberth: with added comment
17:26:30  <Alberth> bonus points! :)
17:27:03  <andythenorth> Pikka: is it not bedtime in BNE? :P
17:27:43  <FLHerne> Alberth: Are you ok to review/commit it, or do I have to nag someone else? ;P
17:27:43  <Pikka> hard to tell really :)
17:27:51  <andythenorth> what colour is outside?
17:27:54  <andythenorth> dark or light?
17:28:05  <Wolf01> Half way
17:28:33  <andythenorth> and should I?
17:29:01  <Alberth> FLHerne:  frosch123 may want to have check as well, I am not that well acquainted with nml code any more
17:29:44  <Alberth> I'll have to check what the is_bool function is doing at least :)
17:30:23  <andythenorth> FLHerne: also, how did you discover this issue? o_O
17:30:44  <Alberth> read output is my guess :p
17:31:04  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, I was loading and saving my file, and each time it got bigger and uglier :-(
17:31:21  <FLHerne> (with this one, it just gets ugly once and then stays unchanged with the round-trip)
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17:31:47  <andythenorth> peter1138: so liveries look done eh :P
17:31:59  <andythenorth> can't ship without bugs, it's bad luck
17:33:45  <FLHerne> Oh, the docstring's wrong, it should have even more !!!s
17:33:49  <FLHerne> (not that anyone would care)
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17:36:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: n round-trips lead to 3^n exclamation marks, so exponentiation being what it is it becomes noticeable quite fast
17:44:10  <Alberth> don't recompile an nml file to itself :p
17:44:33  <Alberth> the entire is_boolean looks quite hacky
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17:48:35  <frosch123> when is this stuff even used? in error messages?
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17:53:03  <andythenorth> so
17:53:09  <andythenorth> futurising sets is boring
17:53:11  <andythenorth> pikka is right :P
17:53:38  <Pikka> oops
17:53:51  <andythenorth> I need to replace the 37 in 2020
17:53:58  <andythenorth> but reality doesn't help
17:54:02  <andythenorth> no time machine :P
17:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd vote for a little bit of future, but too future-y will probably fail
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17:54:38  <andythenorth> I was going to use this
17:54:50  <andythenorth> but it works better for the fast pax diesel in the tech tree for 2020
17:54:53  <andythenorth> so now I have nothing to draw :P
17:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> make it a universal diesel?
17:55:11  <andythenorth> tech tree says no
17:55:22  <andythenorth> I could just have similar sprites
17:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> make an identical one with different stats?
17:55:43  <andythenorth> the stats are already sorted :)
17:55:45  <andythenorth> and tested :)
17:56:25  <andythenorth> I did draw this
17:56:34  <andythenorth> but then I stole it for the Turtle
17:57:17  <V453000> 2100+ or riot
17:57:18  <Pikka> that's a lot of locos
17:57:28  <andythenorth> everything is cheese by 2020
17:57:30  <andythenorth> maybe this?
17:57:37  <andythenorth> it's not Brit
17:58:08  <V453000> Pikka may have skewed his perception of "a lot of locos" :P
17:58:13  <andythenorth> or
17:58:18  <V453000> but yeah, minimizing iz
17:58:20  <andythenorth> V453000 pikka has same number as me
17:58:27  <andythenorth> he just hides them in A, B and C :)
17:58:31  <V453000> :D
17:58:47  <Pikka> I don't have as many electro-diesels ;)
17:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to "10 locos should be enough for anyone"?
17:59:32  <Pikka> I didn't say that, I said 10 locos should make a playable set
17:59:44  <Pikka> once you have a playable set, you can start making it more fun :P
18:00:54  <andythenorth> Pikka: how many do you have now? o_O
18:00:56  <andythenorth> 32?
18:01:04  <Pikka> something like that
18:01:45  <andythenorth> I'm at 35 now
18:01:52  <andythenorth> @calc 2020-1860
18:01:52  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 160
18:02:00  <andythenorth> @calc 160/35
18:02:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4.57142857143
18:02:24  <ZehMatt> @calc 1/0
18:02:24  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: float division by zero
18:02:36  <ZehMatt> @calc 1/-0
18:02:36  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: float division by zero
18:02:39  <andythenorth> had to be tried eh
18:02:43  <ZehMatt> :)
18:02:47  <andythenorth> stop bullying the bot
18:02:59  <ZehMatt> u'll never know when you find the first singularity
18:03:20  <andythenorth> there's always a chance
18:06:20  <ZehMatt> @calc sqrt(1)
18:06:20  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: 1
18:07:10  <ZehMatt> @calc sin(0.5)*cos(0.2)
18:07:10  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: 0.46986894695
18:07:13  <ZehMatt> amazing
18:07:16  <ZehMatt> what is it running
18:08:15  <LordAro> supybot
18:08:27  <LordAro> (php)
18:08:40  <ZehMatt> @calc null+1
18:08:40  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: 'null' is not a defined function.
18:08:51  <ZehMatt> @calc NULL+1
18:08:51  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: 'null' is not a defined function.
18:08:54  <ZehMatt> ;(
18:09:05  <LordAro> come on, you can do better than that
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18:09:15  <LordAro> @calc 1<< 2
18:09:15  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
18:09:20  <ZehMatt> @calc echo(1)
18:09:20  <DorpsGek> ZehMatt: Error: 'echo' is not a defined function.
18:09:20  <LordAro> @calc 1 << 2
18:09:21  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
18:09:32  <LordAro> anyway
18:09:59  <ZehMatt> oh since you are here
18:10:00  <peter1138> So
18:10:05  <ZehMatt> I've addressed the last review of yours
18:10:13  <ZehMatt> its ready from my end
18:10:59  <ZehMatt> moving a window on 120hz at 30hz is slightly akward to watch :p
18:12:07  <andythenorth> Pikka: shall I just refurb the 37 again?  And not electro it? :P
18:12:13  <andythenorth> it's pretty close to IRL
18:12:25  <andythenorth> there are no replacements for 37s because they keep repairing them
18:12:33  <Pikka> I guess so
18:13:04  <andythenorth> saves drawing eh
18:13:56  <Pikka> I thought the 37s were all gone, I guess not :P
18:14:39  <andythenorth> seems there are about 40 or so left with leasing companies
18:15:30  <peter1138> ZehMatt, on my system I get horrible glitching as there's no vsync going on :S
18:15:59  <peter1138> (With your patch)
18:16:05  <ZehMatt> hm
18:16:07  <peter1138> I haven't tried the split-up version.
18:16:09  <ZehMatt> fullscreen, windowed?
18:16:24  <peter1138> It's there in master anyway, just less noticable as there is settle-time between frames.
18:16:34  <peter1138> Windowed, I'm not a monster.
18:17:03  <LordAro> unconvinced
18:17:05  <ZehMatt> i wonder how thats even possible
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18:17:11  <ZehMatt> are you using sdl
18:17:18  <peter1138> BTW you didn't update the allegro driver again, it doesn't call DrawWindows()
18:17:21  <peter1138> No, I'm on Windows.
18:17:35  <ZehMatt> i cant get it go tear
18:17:42  <peter1138> It's not tearing.
18:18:02  <peter1138> Hmm, wonder if I can capture it. Unfortunately as it's GDI OBS isn't much cop.
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18:18:42  <peter1138> I made my copy update the whole screen at once and it's silky smooth, of course./
18:19:38  <ZehMatt> i keep missing those files because they are not with the VS project :D
18:19:53  <ZehMatt> one way could be to add them but exclude them from compilation
18:22:03  <peter1138> < live streaming it :p
18:22:14  <andythenorth> how modern
18:22:27  <andythenorth> so smooth :P
18:22:32  <ZehMatt> resolving host..
18:22:59  <ZehMatt> so the mouse cursor
18:23:45  <peter1138> mouse cursor disappears, and windows get chopped up
18:24:11  <ZehMatt> the mouse cursor thing is visible on my end except the window chopping
18:24:13  <peter1138> scrolling the map is fine
18:24:36  <peter1138> it's visible, check the scroll bar on the depot window
18:24:56  <ZehMatt> hm
18:24:59  <peter1138> as i move it right
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18:25:14  <peter1138> it disappears because the window has overwritten it, and it hasn't redrawn the scrollbar yet
18:25:28  <peter1138> something is not right but afaik it's all magic within BitBlt()
18:25:51  <peter1138> The surface knows what is meant be updated, and BitBlt should just magically do it.
18:26:44  <ZehMatt> weird
18:26:48  <peter1138> lol one change and it rebuilds it all
18:26:50  <ZehMatt> some of it doesnt happen on my end
18:27:07  <ZehMatt> so far only the mouse cursor so far is can reproduced here
18:27:14  <peter1138> anyway, this happens in master for me as well
18:27:16  <ZehMatt> welp
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18:27:19  <peter1138> just your patch makes it more obvious
18:27:25  <ZehMatt> i see
18:27:49  <peter1138> With that small change I made that marks it all dirty
18:27:53  <peter1138> it's lovely, silky smooth
18:27:56  <ZehMatt> cool
18:28:02  <ZehMatt> perhaps add it to my PR?
18:28:07  <peter1138> no
18:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that kinda defeats the whole point?
18:28:18  <ZehMatt> what exactly did you change
18:28:19  <peter1138> marking the whole screen dirty every change is definitely wrong :)
18:28:26  <ZehMatt> oh nvm
18:28:50  <peter1138> It's like GDI is doing the BitBlt in stages :S
18:29:19  <peter1138> gonna try full screen
18:29:23  <peter1138> doubt it changes anything :)
18:29:32  <ZehMatt> ok so whats the suggestion
18:29:47  <peter1138> I have none. It's not really about your PR as it happens in master.
18:29:55  <peter1138> Just bugs me and I don't know how to fix it.
18:30:06  <ZehMatt> i can actually look into that afterwards if you want me to
18:30:09  <peter1138> I don't know what's odd about my system that other people don't have it.
18:30:55  <peter1138> Still bad on fullscreen.
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18:32:48  <peter1138> I suspect something changed in Windows over the years, everything being composited now.
18:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so report the bug to windows?
18:33:46  <peter1138> :p
18:33:57  <ZehMatt> well report what exactly
18:34:06  <ZehMatt> the issue needs to be isolated first
18:34:09  <peter1138> That would be "LOL WHAT YOU USE GDI!?"
18:34:16  <peter1138> Use DirectX12 kthx bye
18:34:19  <peter1138> etc etc
18:34:48  <ZehMatt> well speaking of, OpenRCT2 has OpenGL rendering, how would you feel about having that in OpenTTD
18:34:50  <peter1138> So yeah, maybe we need to switch to DX9 so we can just flip.
18:35:05  <peter1138> OpenGL is fine, someone already had a partial patch to implement it.
18:35:14  <peter1138> And I don't mean my ancient patch that was terrible.
18:35:17  <ZehMatt> i wonder if that was Overv again
18:35:29  <peter1138> It was one of the other devs.
18:35:32  <ZehMatt> he started it on orct2 and me and few others picked up lately
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18:35:35  <peter1138> Can't remember who. Maybe michi_cc.
18:35:37  <ZehMatt> ah
18:35:53  <ZehMatt> maybe if i'll find some spare time ill have a look
18:36:02  <peter1138> All it needs is an OpenGL pixel buffer as a surface, and then swap that about.
18:36:18  <peter1138> My ancient patch actually used direct opengl calls to render individual sprites. terrible.
18:36:31  <ZehMatt> we are batching everything
18:36:47  <ZehMatt> it works quite well
18:36:58  <ZehMatt> and interpolation adds some butter to it :p
18:37:04  <peter1138> There's no much to batch if it's just a surface.
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18:37:27  <peter1138> Although you could then do nice stuff like making windows be a different surface
18:37:51  <ZehMatt> you are probably talking rendering to textures
18:38:08  <peter1138> Yes, I'm talking about not changing the game core so much.
18:38:45  <ZehMatt> yea i get that
18:38:49  <peter1138> The game already handles only updating bits it needs to.
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18:40:11  <ZehMatt> damnit whitespaces
18:40:17  <peter1138> :D
18:41:33  <ZehMatt> notepad++ loves messing with me
18:42:42  <peter1138> Palette animation also becomes cheaper, with the right scheme.
18:43:27  <peter1138>
18:43:43  <peter1138> Some version of my ancient OpenGL patch which was all wrong. 10 years old :p
18:43:53  <peter1138> It was occasionally fast.
18:44:48  <ZehMatt> yeah i see improvement opportunities :p
18:46:19  <ZehMatt>
18:46:24  <ZehMatt> thats how its done there
18:48:25  <LordAro> michi_cc has an opengl branch somewhere
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18:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause>
18:58:19  <LordAro> ta
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19:04:40  <_dp_> hi! is it a good idea to pass NetworkClientInfo->index in network command instead of client_id?
19:05:51  <_dp_> client_id can go up to 32bit theoretically which is too much since there are only 64 bits in parameters and a lot of other stuff I want to pass
19:06:09  <_dp_> and there are max 256 clients anyway
19:07:01  <_dp_> only problem I see with index is that theoretically another client can replace this one while command is queued
19:07:39  <_dp_> but considering it's going to be used by GS it's a 1 tick window so chances are nearly 0
19:08:03  <peter1138> That will happen all the time, then.
19:08:37  <ZehMatt> wouldn't be a memset better here?
19:09:21  <LordAro> probably
19:10:52  <ZehMatt> hm
19:11:00  <ZehMatt> isnt it actually width * height
19:11:06  <peter1138> It may have been profiled at some point.
19:11:08  <ZehMatt> a single memset would work?
19:11:36  <ZehMatt> oh actually no
19:11:39  <peter1138> only if width = surface width.
19:11:55  <ZehMatt> _dirty_bytes_per_line == width you mean
19:12:02  <ZehMatt> since buffer is plus that
19:12:24  <ZehMatt> well at least the inner thing should use memset
19:12:48  <ZehMatt> in most cases it will use a better path to fill the buffer
19:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: if the chance is not exactly 0, it's worthless
19:15:49  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it may actually be 0, didn't check how network server is implemented
19:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: if you can't prove it's 0, it's not 0
19:16:43  <_dp_> A lot of stuff in OpenTTD uses indexes already actually
19:19:26  <_dp_> lol, and in exact same way I'm going to
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19:20:59  <_dp_> Actually, much worse, since I'm only gonna keep it for 1 tick while current API has no issues exposing it to GS which can keep who knows how long
19:24:13  <peter1138> ZehMatt, hmm, so openrct2 does it sort of like how i was doing it, but with decent non-primitive-tutorial level calls...
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19:26:14  <peter1138> michi_cc's patch still appears to due direct calls
19:27:54  *** som89 has joined #openttd
19:31:20  <peter1138> s/due/use/
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19:32:12  <peter1138> ZehMatt, well, if you want to integrate it... ;)
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19:42:15  <ZehMatt> would be cool
19:42:21  <ZehMatt> but first things first
19:46:01  <Wolf01> andythenorth:
19:46:08  <Wolf01> peter1138:
19:46:20  <Wolf01> Don't mix links
19:46:21  <Wolf01> :D
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19:49:13  <andythenorth> Wolf01: think it's better or worse than the TLG official one? o_O
19:50:01  <Wolf01> Better for sure, the official one will have aesthetics > functionality
19:51:26  <Wolf01> I'll wait a month to see how EuroBricks specialists destroy the official one, then I'll decide if it's worth the purchase
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20:14:17  <peter1138> Hmm, I see.
20:16:31  <Wolf01> I tried building and removing road/tram, building and removing road/tram stations, depots, bridges, tunnels,  and all the combinations of them, to me it seem to work
20:17:32  <Wolf01> I also already fixed some indentations on comments because VS loves to remove trailing spaces but I didn't update the patch as I already closed the CLI
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20:17:52  <peter1138> InvalidateRect() leads to WM_PAINT. So every time it calls InvalidateRect() it repaints immediately.
20:18:10  <peter1138> No queuing of dirty rects.
20:19:23  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe not.
20:22:36  <andythenorth> Wolf01: stop worrying about code style, it's literally a button in your editor
20:22:41  <peter1138> Nope, not the case at all.
20:22:42  * andythenorth is being a bad person
20:22:54  <Wolf01> I would love to have resharper
20:23:01  <Wolf01> But it costs a bit
20:23:52  <Wolf01> I was too much used to PHPStorm code styling
20:25:08  <Wolf01> I never found something which can challenge that for VS, only some plugins which seem to work on 50% of the cases... and resharper (made from the same guys of PHPStorm)
20:27:02  <andythenorth> "here am I sitting in a tin can"
20:27:06  <andythenorth> it's Bowie time
20:27:22  <Wolf01> +1
20:27:55  <peter1138> 3 is the magic number
20:28:33  <andythenorth> "I am the one and only"
20:28:37  <andythenorth> "nobody I'd rather be"
20:28:39  <andythenorth> not Bowie
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20:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- on the topic of bowie
20:38:39  <andythenorth> hmm
20:38:42  <andythenorth> spookie timing
20:38:48  <andythenorth> literally Life On Mars is playing right now
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20:42:13  <andythenorth> this is not new, but eh, good
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21:39:13  <Wolf01> andythenorth, supermop_work
21:39:32  <andythenorth>
21:39:44  <andythenorth> stupid lack of deeplinks :P
21:39:54  <andythenorth>
21:40:11  <Wolf01> FAntastic
21:44:31  * peter1138 whistles innocently.
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21:59:02  <andythenorth> these trains are hench
21:59:18  <andythenorth>
21:59:41  <peter1138> Yeah, michi_cc's opengl patch fixes my glitch graphics.
22:00:17  <andythenorth> o_O
22:00:51  <peter1138> Although it feels a bit sluggish :S
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22:02:23  <peter1138> Maybe it' snot even using it :p
22:02:44  <andythenorth> how to draw this in 8bpp 1x then? o_O
22:03:09  <peter1138> Well...
22:03:18  <peter1138> Waves hands. Vaguell.
22:03:24  <peter1138> Vaguely, too.
22:03:36  <peter1138> Hmm, no, it's using opengl, it is slower than without. Odd.
22:05:14  <Wolf01> 'night
22:05:19  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:06:52  <glx> [23:44:33] peter1138 whistles innocently. <-- oups ;)
22:12:42  <peter1138> Hmm, it's only sluggish because the quick fix of moving UpdateWindows() doesn't work.
22:13:16  <peter1138> glx, twas an accident, but i didn't think it was possible anyway.
22:13:56  <glx> I think commits in master are not possible, but it's different for branches it seems
22:14:06  <peter1138> Yeah
22:15:45  <peter1138> Aww, it crashed on fullscreen mode.
22:26:06  <andythenorth>
22:26:18  <andythenorth> liveries :P
22:36:02  <peter1138> Oh right, that beeping was the router restarting. D'oh.
22:36:17  <peter1138> group-liveries!
22:36:21  <peter1138> Also, night night
22:38:11  <andythenorth> bye
22:38:12  <andythenorth> also
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23:00:58  <andythenorth> is V453000 ?
23:01:00  <andythenorth> probably not
23:01:04  <andythenorth> sleeping time
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23:36:42  <muffindrake2> Is there a specific goal in openttd?
23:36:47  *** muffindrake2 is now known as muffindrake
23:37:09  <muffindrake> Or is the only requirement really staying outside red numbers?
23:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes?
23:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's really a "set your own goals" game...
23:40:08  <muffindrake> I see
23:40:13  <muffindrake> I'll just stick to trains then
23:40:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why there are so many people with so many different playstyles
23:40:15  <ST2> muffindrake: you make the goals you want: cover all towns, all coal mines
23:40:18  <ST2> etc etc
23:40:18  <muffindrake> _trains_ everywhere
23:40:28  <glx> or use a game script with goal
23:40:42  <ST2> exactly, as glx said
23:40:50  <muffindrake> Ah, I may look into that
23:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, goal scripts are a nice way to set goals if you're struggling to find challenge in your own goals
23:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i hear "silicon valley" is a good one
23:43:11  <muffindrake> What's that?
23:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> never used it
23:43:37  <ST2>
23:43:48  <ST2> available gamescripts on bananas
23:44:00  <glx> but use ingame downloader :)
23:44:02  <ST2> each one has a different goal/play style
23:44:28  <ST2> yeah, via Check Online Content button
23:45:32  <muffindrake> does openttd perform sanity checking on those scripts?
23:45:44  <muffindrake> Given that you can run system commands with lua
23:46:00  <glx> you can't do that with squirrel
23:46:08  <ST2> lua?! this is not Factorio ^^
23:46:14  <muffindrake> Oh no
23:46:23  <muffindrake> Yes, I was completely off-track there
23:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the squirrel interpreter disables some of the worst abuses you can do
23:47:09  <ST2> amen to that :)
23:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> like commands that take a really long time and lock up the game
23:47:28  <ST2> (despite I think Eddi|zuHause have me on his ignore list xD)
23:47:44  <glx> and if something wrong happens the script is just killed
23:48:22  <ST2> and complementing glx words, throws an output of the error (file and line too)

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