Log for #openttd on 27th April 2018:
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06:08:58  <peter1138> mr andy
06:11:52  <andythenorth> lo
06:14:06  <Alkel_U3> 
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06:19:24  <andythenorth> buy menu sprites eh
06:19:43  <andythenorth> maybe I can use sprite layers o_O
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08:00:02  <peter1138> He's back
08:00:32  <LordAro> maybe
08:00:44  <andythenorth> yes he's back
08:00:45  <andythenorth> back again
08:03:54  <TrueBrain> but now the question is ..... for how long!
08:04:07  <LordAro> place your bets
08:07:08  <andythenorth> until the next job I have to do
08:07:11  <peter1138> Urgh
08:09:19  <peter1138> Damn, at some point I think I accidentally disabled password ssh logins on my VM at home.
08:09:29  <peter1138> Can't get on :p
08:09:52  <peter1138> That would explain why when I was trying to turn off password logins on a server the other day, the changes got lost. "lol"
08:15:38  <nielsm> re. commit messages, can someone elaborate on "change" vs "codechange" vs "update" vs "prepare" ?
08:16:19  <TrueBrain> haha, cool, I can command a Windows Docker from linux :) Okay, that makes shit easier :)
08:16:34  <TrueBrain> nielsm: easiest is to look through the history to get an idea for that
08:16:46  <TrueBrain> but Codechange are changes that only affect code; no function change what-so-ever
08:16:49  <TrueBrain> (refactoring, moving, etc)
08:17:00  <TrueBrain> Update is rarely for code, mostly for shit like languages, readmes, etc
08:17:05  <TrueBrain> Prepare I have never seen use
08:17:17  <TrueBrain> Change is for when there is a function change to your code change .. give or take
08:17:19  <TrueBrain> not that black/white
08:18:22  <nielsm> here I have a rev that basically just adds some parameters to a function prototype (in all the music drivers) to prepare for an actual feature add, which is only possible in the new win32 driver
08:18:35  <nielsm> does that even warrant a separate commit?
08:18:50  <nielsm> -"basically"
08:19:10  <TrueBrain> commits should be a logic separation between changes so the reviewer can easily and trivially understand the change
08:19:25  <TrueBrain> up to you to fill in that line
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08:47:06  <peter1138> Problem with that particular change is the added parameters are only relevant to the one driver.
08:47:39  <peter1138> I do wonder if we should somehow replace all those music drivers with a built-in synth.
08:47:52  <peter1138> It would be a consistent experience then.
08:48:54  <peter1138> Mind you, someone would then complain that they can't use their expensive hardware synth :p
08:50:03  <nielsm> I would
08:50:06  <nielsm> for one!
08:50:39  <nielsm> I got a roland sc-55, ie. the synth the music was written for, and hell do I want to use it
08:51:42  <nielsm> (in fact a large part of the reason I even started doing these changes was that I had trouble getting either win32 or dmusic driver to use it)
08:51:54  <nielsm> (on win10)
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09:06:03  <LordAro> also here
09:06:23  <peter1138> On Linux MIDI is especially awkward.
09:06:36  <peter1138> Windows at least has the default soft-synth.
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09:26:16  <andythenorth> can I be arsed to script buy menu sprites?
09:26:20  <andythenorth> or shall I just draw them :P
09:26:49  <peter1138> Does it need anything special?
09:27:05  <andythenorth> well I generate the spritesheets
09:27:07  <peter1138> Doesn't the game already just use the correct sprite? :p
09:27:18  <andythenorth> oh this is just for articulated vehicles
09:27:20  <peter1138> You're going to say "HAHAHA SO NAIVE" aren't you
09:27:23  <peter1138> Hmm
09:27:28  <peter1138> o_O
09:27:33  <andythenorth> articulated vehicles don't exist in buy menu is it
09:27:44  <peter1138> Script if you can, a repeatable automated build is nice.
09:27:56  <peter1138> Jenkinsfile it etc :p
09:27:59  <andythenorth> I tried it with sprite layers
09:28:06  <andythenorth> but I don't know if they work in purchase menu
09:28:09  <andythenorth> I could read src I guess
09:28:14  <Sacro> timidity++
09:28:30  <andythenorth> meh
09:28:46  <andythenorth> I automate a bit, see what happens
09:28:53  <Sacro> TrueBrain: how'd you do windows docker in Linux?
09:30:27  <TrueBrain> with a Windows Docker host ofc :)
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09:55:31  <nielsm> git diff
09:55:35  <nielsm> uh wrong window
09:55:57  <TrueBrain> just happy you didnt stash us
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10:04:26  <LordAro> git reset --hard
10:13:26  <TrueBrain> I still wonder about the DrawWindows patch .. we now have 2 functions that do something with the real-time ..
10:13:28  <TrueBrain> that feels off
10:13:38  <TrueBrain> guess I need to install MSVC after all :P
10:15:28  <peter1138> It makes my graphical glitching worse :(
10:16:00  <TrueBrain> yeah, we dont have stuff like vsync
10:16:08  <TrueBrain> and 66 Hz is a very odd frequency
10:16:23  <TrueBrain> so it is very likely it is an issue for a lot of people honestly
10:16:51  <TrueBrain> current code is also broken, just less likely to show :)
10:17:03  <peter1138> Yes, GDI can't do vsync.
10:17:33  <peter1138> SDL may be able to, certainly with OpenGL.
10:18:16  <TrueBrain> normally it is not that relevant .. double-buffer and let it up to the driver itself
10:18:31  <TrueBrain> but it is  also weird that Window stuff is influenced by FF
10:18:49  <peter1138> Yes, would be nice to replace the stuff that uses game ticks incorrectly.
10:18:54  <peter1138> There's quite a lot that does it.
10:19:06  <peter1138> FF should just make the game faster, not all the windows :p
10:19:20  <peter1138> We don't enable any double-buffering.
10:19:59  <TrueBrain> so there is an isuse :D
10:20:16  <TrueBrain> dunno .. feels this needs another approach, but I cannot really put my finger on it
10:20:18  <peter1138> Well, our use of GDI should be but it seems not to be.
10:20:27  <TrueBrain> not having touched OpenTTD in years has something to do with that :D
10:20:33  <peter1138> My mouse cursor disappears if I move it too fast.
10:20:54  <TrueBrain> this patch just makes it much more obvious there is more broken
10:20:59  <peter1138> It's temporal of course, everything in the backing buffer is fine.
10:21:03  <peter1138> Yes, exactly.
10:21:06  <TrueBrain> but it is hard to say what to fix, without looking into it myself
10:21:30  <TrueBrain> and I hate asking others: please look into this, without giving any clues :D
10:21:32  <peter1138> I wondered how about switching to DirectX/OpenGL, rendering to a surface and then swapping that.
10:21:37  <peter1138> -how
10:22:02  <TrueBrain> you have been talking about OpenGL ever since I met you :D
10:22:32  <TrueBrain> having proper OpenGL/DirectX would solve a few issues left and right
10:22:41  <TrueBrain> also shit like fullscreen, borderless, resolutions, etc
10:22:51  <TrueBrain> I cannot believe that if I go fullscreen, it switches to 640x480
10:22:58  <TrueBrain> that is such a 1990 thing to do
10:23:12  <peter1138> :D
10:23:13  <TrueBrain> all modern games switch to your native resoltion
10:23:19  <TrueBrain> meh .. first lunch time
10:23:25  <peter1138> Yeah but my initial OpenGL stuff was, well, learning about it.
10:23:34  <peter1138> And based on simple tutorials which did everything wrong as well.
10:27:18  <andythenorth> maybe we could get modern
10:27:20  <andythenorth> for 2001
10:28:44  <peter1138> Although OpenRCT2's OpenGL renderer also appears to use the renderer to draw individual sprites as well.
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10:29:21  <peter1138> michi has a nearly working OpenGL patch
10:29:28  <peter1138> It did crash for me :p
10:33:32  <andythenorth> automate buy menu sprites more?
10:33:47  <andythenorth> or exercise and go shopping? :P
10:38:28  <andythenorth> hmm, liveries could be controlled by invisible wagons
10:38:40  <andythenorth> add them to the rear of the train
10:38:44  <andythenorth> 'livery 1' etc
10:39:10  <andythenorth> this idea came from a stupid bug I just found in Horse :)
10:48:54  <nielsm> just make sure the invisible wagon is sufficiently tangible inside the depot, so you can actually remove it again
10:50:04  <andythenorth> it could flash animated colours :P
10:56:18  <peter1138> Why's my train taking ages to load?
10:59:25  <nielsm> you need to upgrade it with an SSD
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11:06:29  <peter1138> oic
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11:18:45  <TrueBrain> the moment that the Antimalware starts to scan your docker over and over again :D
11:20:08  <TrueBrain> 15 GB of Docker image to run MSVC .... ugh
11:20:24  <TrueBrain> 10 GB is the base image
11:21:25  <peter1138> btw, I'd say changes to use _realtime_ticks for ui stuff should be a separate commit
11:21:54  <TrueBrain> I think the solution is to take out realtime_ticks stuff, and put them all in a single function or something
11:22:04  <TrueBrain> so it is clear what is based on the realtime
11:22:08  <TrueBrain> and what is based on the gametime
11:22:15  <TrueBrain> than think hard about what is currently where
11:22:19  <peter1138> Eh, the code is spread around in window functions.
11:22:24  <TrueBrain> exactly
11:22:34  <peter1138> Using window OnTick() events.
11:22:51  <TrueBrain> as if we can split out what is realtime and what is not, it becomes more clear what is going on
11:22:55  <peter1138> Simplest might be OnRealtimeTick()
11:23:05  <TrueBrain> sounds good to me
11:23:26  <nielsm> yeah that could be useful for some things
11:24:15  <nielsm> when I was still trying to fix things in the dmusic driver I ran into not wanting to update the volume control value too often and kind of wanted to throttle it based on real time but didn't find a good method
11:24:22  <nielsm> (this is of course moot now)
11:26:57  <peter1138> And then midi volume on linux does nothing ;(
11:28:05  <nielsm> yeah what I had to do to control midi volume in dmusic was manually keep track of individual channel volumes and inject channel volume change messages to scale everything
11:28:21  <nielsm> same thing the new win32 driver does actually
11:28:37  <nielsm> (and same thing the driver in dos ttd did)
11:29:18  <peter1138> o_O
11:30:03  <peter1138> So should we start parsing and processing the MIDI ourselves?
11:30:16  <peter1138> That might end up making things simpler. extmidi is a bad concept.
11:30:18  <nielsm> of course if you inject too many volume change messages in a midi stream getting sent to a hardware synth over a classic ~38 kbps midi connection you risk running out of bandwidth
11:30:24  <nielsm> so I had to throttle it
11:30:50  <peter1138> nielsm, that's easy, only set the volume on mouse up, or every 0.25 seconds or so
11:30:59  <peter1138> er... so throttle it, exactly as you did :p
11:31:14  <peter1138> mouse up only is annoying, some games do that for sliders :(
11:31:25  <peter1138> You know know what you're going get!
11:32:12  <nielsm> you want to process midi yourself? I got you covered :D
11:34:11  <TrueBrain> right, guess it is time to install MSVC build tools ..
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11:39:20  <LordAro> -rw-r----- 1 root adm 5270022379820 Apr 27 10:33 error.log.1
11:39:22  <LordAro> oops.
11:39:28  <TrueBrain> lolzzz
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11:39:49  <TrueBrain> okay, the win32 video driver is a bit weird .. there is a for (;;) {} with no break, yet there is code below it
11:39:50  <nielsm> better compress it
11:40:03  <TrueBrain> pretty sure that code is never going to be called ...
11:42:26  <peter1138> I... don't see that.
11:43:20  <TrueBrain> the main loop?
11:43:25  <TrueBrain> _draw_threaded if statement
11:44:36  <TrueBrain> line 1329 in win32_v.cpp
11:44:44  <peter1138> Ah right, I see what you mean now.
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> that is some sweet dead-code right there
11:44:59  <peter1138> There's a return which should be a break.
11:45:25  <TrueBrain> yup
11:46:53  <TrueBrain> hmm .. CLion really wants a CMake before it wants to work
11:46:55  <TrueBrain> meh :)
11:47:03  <TrueBrain> owh well, enough for today, going to enjoy the weather for a bit :)
11:47:44  <peter1138> It's raining :(
11:47:48  * andythenorth tries to use tab key to speed up compile
11:47:53  <andythenorth> "ffwd"
11:47:54  <andythenorth> :(
11:48:04  <peter1138> I assume, like Minecraft, you all have the same weather...
11:48:15  <LordAro> lots of rain here
11:48:35  <peter1138> Simutrans has a day/night cycle. There's a minute of game time when you can see fuck all.
11:48:40  <peter1138> Useful feature that.
11:49:16  <andythenorth> we could map the palette to 1?
11:49:27  <andythenorth> probably great
11:50:01  <andythenorth> the upside of automation is that it saves loads of time
11:50:11  <andythenorth> the downside is that it automates adding bugs :P
11:50:22  <peter1138> At least the bugs are consistent.
11:51:19  <andythenorth> there is that
11:51:49  <andythenorth> I just wonder if this is wise :P
11:51:57  <andythenorth> "probably fine"
11:53:06  <andythenorth> BBLs, tesco
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12:28:44  <nielsm> hmm I thought all my commit messages should be good now, what's it complaining about?
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12:39:20  <peter1138> Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash.
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12:41:36  <nielsm> definitely
12:41:44  <nielsm> hacking on it locally to do just that atm
12:44:58  <nielsm> seems I accidentally a space before the :
12:48:48  <LordAro> file an issue!
12:54:23  <peter1138> Oh yes, I see it now :p
12:55:30  <nielsm> is this a good solution?
12:55:38  <nielsm> (I'm not good at shell scripting)
12:56:51  <nielsm> gives me output like this:
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13:05:52  <peter1138> Erm, I dunno what you changed :p
13:06:16  <nielsm> echoes commit ids as they are checked
13:06:36  <nielsm> instead of failing on the first error, sets a flag and continues checking the rest, then returns error flag at the end
13:11:53  <nielsm>
13:13:14  * nielsm performs a little dance
13:13:19  <nielsm> "The commit looks good"
13:15:23  <nielsm> ...oh, right
13:15:36  <nielsm> errors in the non-windows midi drivers
13:16:25  <peter1138> Premature little dance :p
13:21:03  <nielsm> let's try that again
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13:32:29  <ZehMatt_> Its somewhat tempting to clean up all the video driver code
13:32:42  <ZehMatt_> most of it is somehow duplicate code
13:33:11  * nielsm puts on Daft Punk
13:33:14  <nielsm> ONE MORE TIME~!
13:33:46  <LordAro> ZehMatt_: doit
13:34:04  <ZehMatt_> well still having the one PR ongoing
13:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ZehMatt_: make an abstract video driver factory? :p
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13:56:35  <TrueBrain> [14:39] <peter1138> Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash. <- feel free to make a PR for the git-hook repo :)
13:56:53  <TrueBrain> owh, someone already did :P
13:56:57  <TrueBrain> should read up before commenting :D
13:57:32  <TrueBrain> and no, I missed the rain twice; lovely ride in the sun for me :)
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14:00:12  <nielsm> "All checks have passed" wee
14:01:07  <TrueBrain> gratz :)
14:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> what about the czechs then?
14:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (anyone got the feeling my jokes got worse over the last year or two?)
14:10:37  <LordAro> only two?
14:11:52  <TrueBrain> yippie, basics of CMake works :)
14:13:43  <LordAro> :o
14:14:33  <TrueBrain> now to figure out how to get stuff like strgen running :)
14:17:23  <TrueBrain> now it auto-detects vcpkg stuff :D No more fiddling! :D
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14:17:55  <Sacro> Bye Eddi
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14:28:13  <Pikka> nyow
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14:30:48  <TrueBrain> bit weird what Pikka said: "if andythenorth is joining, I am going to leave; really sick of all those images about trains"; not sure what that was about
14:30:58  <andythenorth> yeah I read the logs
14:31:01  <TrueBrain> :D
14:31:03  <TrueBrain> <3 andythenorth :)
14:31:14  <andythenorth> I know, that pikka
14:31:35  <andythenorth> shall I close some issues?
14:31:43  <TrueBrain> depends how :P
14:31:45  <andythenorth> anything to avoid drawing \ / views for trains :P
14:32:01  <TrueBrain> really happy the new OSX builds seem to fix a few OSX issues :)
14:32:12  <andythenorth> I haven't tried it properly
14:32:29  <andythenorth> I have a cheap tester, I'll get him to play tomorrow
14:32:41  <andythenorth> he doesn't eat or drink when he's playing games, so it's a saving overall
14:32:48  <TrueBrain> the mouse weirdness seems gone
14:32:50  <TrueBrain> which is good
14:32:52  <andythenorth> oh good
14:33:03  <andythenorth> I wonder if it's stopped locking the cursor to left screen edge too
14:33:09  <andythenorth> that's kind of annoying
14:33:14  <andythenorth> quite unplayable
14:33:18  <TrueBrain> lemme know if it does :)
14:33:24  <TrueBrain> if it doesn't, tell LordAro
14:33:28  <andythenorth> ok
14:33:37  <TrueBrain> I dont care about stuff that is not working :P
14:33:51  <LordAro> :<
14:33:55  <TrueBrain> now how am I going to do strgen in CMake I wonder ..
14:34:18  <andythenorth> your problems are same as mine, just several levels lower :P
14:35:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: custom commands, i imagine
14:35:21  <TrueBrain> yeah .. but that doesnt result in code now does it :D
14:36:05  <TrueBrain> for example, how do I get it to compile strgen before it runs the custom command .. hmm
14:36:06  <LordAro> is what i wrote a long time ago
14:36:21  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: somebody definitely has a patch for it
14:36:29  <LordAro> ah, that question is apparently answered with
14:36:38  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: sadly, that always is the case in this community .. bit annoying tbfh :P
14:36:49  <TrueBrain> so LordAro, why isnt this in OpenTTD yet?
14:37:19  <LordAro> because i'm still not sure i like cmake :p
14:37:20  <Rubidium> because he closed the CMake build ticket for OpenTTD? ;)
14:37:55  <TrueBrain> LordAro: your personally preference is irrelevant to me :P
14:38:10  <TrueBrain> this custom pile of shit really needs replacing :)
14:38:11  <LordAro> configure scripts have the advantage of portability
14:38:15  <TrueBrain> (I can call it that; I wrote it)
14:38:24  <LordAro> even autotools generated configure scripts have that
14:38:27  <TrueBrain> all OSes we support, have CMake support
14:38:44  <LordAro> with cmake, you need cmake to build
14:39:01  <TrueBrain> so what is next? Are we going to write our own compiler, because it is more portable?
14:39:11  <LordAro> don't be silly :p
14:39:13  <TrueBrain> current "configure" system is 14 years old ....
14:39:19  <TrueBrain> it needs replacement
14:39:44  <Rubidium> *explitive* is time really going that fast?
14:39:46  <TrueBrain> and cmake won that race
14:39:55  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yes
14:40:33  <andythenorth> time
14:40:37  <andythenorth> is how I got to be 40 years old
14:40:44  <andythenorth> I was less when I started ottding
14:40:53  <LordAro> Rubidium: hey, i've been here 9 years now :p
14:41:17  <LordAro> TrueBrain: well, go ahead then
14:41:32  <LordAro> autotools avoids an extra (hard) dependency, is all
14:41:39  <TrueBrain> autotools really is a big no-no
14:41:46  <TrueBrain> they really lost the race, for so many reasons
14:41:55  <TrueBrain> but having Linux and Windows closer together, is really a plus
14:42:04  <TrueBrain> means we can stop generating MSVC files for 2017+
14:42:13  <LordAro> fair enough
14:42:20  <TrueBrain> and they don't avoid a dependency at all btw
14:42:29  <TrueBrain> I have more systems without autotools than with :)
14:42:30  <LordAro> i don't have any particular opposition to cmake, just a general unease :p
14:42:48  <TrueBrain> I am also trying to get more and more systems without gcc
14:42:56  <TrueBrain> (but with clang, for example)
14:43:06  <Rubidium> <- kewl... I'm talking to 2021 now. Didn't know IRC had that in it ;)
14:43:38  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you really want to play this game? :)
14:44:24  <TrueBrain> hmm, the import of course doesnt let me step into that branch
14:44:37  <TrueBrain> and I am not annoyed your name is on that commit :P
14:44:48  <TrueBrain> not even shared credits!
14:47:29  <andythenorth> train 50 is not my finest work
14:47:30  <andythenorth>
14:47:40  <andythenorth> should look more like train 52
14:47:48  <andythenorth> oops
14:50:12  <andythenorth> $someone should fix it :P
14:50:18  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: okay, 2006-07-30 was the first commit to that branch; guess we call that the starting date :P
14:53:21  <TrueBrain> okay, cmake now first compiles strgen .. right .. it fails horrible .. endian shit .. at least in concept that works :)
14:53:24  <TrueBrain> sweet :)
14:53:34  <Rubidium> still amazing that it managed to function well for so long
14:53:56  <TrueBrain> same .. as it was written with little bash knowledge, and a lot crash&burn moments
14:54:08  <TrueBrain> but once it got stable .. it seems nobody touched it enough for it to break :P
14:54:14  <TrueBrain> like this big tower build on sticks
14:55:05  <peter1138> What was that other build system... hmm...
14:55:25  <TrueBrain> before config.lib?
14:55:28  <TrueBrain> plain Makefile :P
14:55:37  <TrueBrain> nowedays you have autoconf and cmake
14:55:40  <peter1138> Oh I remember. waf.
14:55:42  <peter1138> Urgh.
14:55:43  <TrueBrain> where cmake can address a few more targets
14:55:48  <TrueBrain> like Makefile, ninja, and a few more
14:56:08  <TrueBrain> that is the other nice thing if cmake works .. means you can switch to ninja if you like :)
14:56:11  <peter1138> waf had the concept that you distributed waf with your project.
14:56:15  <peter1138> But it was python.
14:56:19  <peter1138> But it was bytecode.
14:56:39  <TrueBrain> sounds like the sound a dog makes tbfh
14:57:14  <peter1138> I gave up with it and used... guess what?
14:57:40  <peter1138> (Yeah, cmake)
14:57:56  <TrueBrain> the more I use cmake, the more I like it; especially as more people start to use it
14:58:08  <TrueBrain> pkg-config was a good idea, just not enough people used it for a long time
14:58:17  <peter1138> Hmm, this was 8/9 years ago ;)
14:58:37  <TrueBrain> find_package in cmake replaces pkg-config .. but enough packages support it for it to be useful
14:58:48  <TrueBrain> I remember in 2006 that pkg-config was only supported by 1 or 2 libraries
14:58:52  <TrueBrain> and even than they tend to break
14:59:03  <TrueBrain> like one of them added -pthread, no matter what youc ompiler was
14:59:17  <peter1138> heh
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15:01:50  <TrueBrain> but now, even on Windows the find_package(png) worked :D
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15:04:56  * Rubidium wonders to what extend endian_check is actually really needed; seems like there's a preprocessor flag for it
15:05:14  <TrueBrain> which one?
15:06:48  <Rubidium> __BYTE_ORDER__
15:07:25  <Rubidium>
15:07:25  <TrueBrain> something to try :)
15:07:34  <TrueBrain> removes a lot of silly code :)
15:07:48  <TrueBrain> are there systems that dont have htons etc defined I wonder :P
15:08:58  * andythenorth fixes train 50 with 'return []'
15:09:05  <andythenorth> hmm but now nml complains
15:09:12  <andythenorth> one step forward, one step back
15:10:51  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: only ones not conforming to POSIX.1-2001
15:11:15  <TrueBrain> given we are switching to stdc++11 or higher, can I assume that wont be a problem? :D
15:11:20  <TrueBrain> so much code that can be removed :P
15:11:22  <TrueBrain> SO MUCH CODE
15:12:22  * andythenorth has to make more MOAR CODE :(
15:12:30  <andythenorth> too much conditional shit
15:12:37  <andythenorth> time to split the template
15:12:58  <LordAro> TrueBrain: hype
15:13:16  <TrueBrain> don't hype! PROGRAM!
15:13:26  <LordAro> def detect_missing_files_by_reading_error_messages():
15:13:28  <LordAro> hmm.
15:14:33  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I can't think of any reasonably recent OS with UI that would have support for C++ compiled binaries but no support htons
15:14:51  <TrueBrain> exactly
15:14:57  <TrueBrain> so we can drop the whole endian-check-shit
15:15:54  <Sacro> But I run TTD on Windows 98SE still :(
15:16:14  <nielsm> what compiler supports C++11 and also win9x targets?
15:16:22  <Rubidium> Sacro: that still falls under reasonably recent ;)
15:16:42  <nielsm> and yes htons is in winsock 1 which arrived in win95
15:16:45  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: gfx_type.hpp's going to be the largest obstacle
15:17:03  <TrueBrain> who has a patch for that?
15:17:36  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: we can fix that with __BYTE_ORDER__ for now I guess
15:17:52  <Sacro> Rubidium: foiled
15:18:06  <Sacro> I've not played OpenTTD in ages to be fair, busy working
15:18:13  <Sacro> Is PBIMTTD still a thing?
15:18:32  <TrueBrain> does he now imply we are not working? Hmmmmmmmm
15:18:56  <Sacro> You know I'm here to troll
15:19:00  <Sacro> Same as the last 2 decades
15:19:08  <TrueBrain> at least you now admit it :D
15:19:10  <TrueBrain> <3
15:19:12  <FLHerne> I thought meson was supposed to be the new shiny vs CMake/autotools :P
15:19:18  <nielsm> also keep in mind that any recent compiler (worth using) should recognize common patterns for assembling/disassembling values from integers into specific byte orders
15:19:44  <nielsm> and translate it into a known-fast machine code equivalent for the platform
15:19:48  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yep, though test for #if __BYTE_ORDER__ == __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ (i.e. invert the lines), so if __BYTE_ORDER__ and __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ are not defined, then it still assumes it being little endian (which would be the right choice most of the time anyway)
15:20:11  <TrueBrain> I expect a PR any minute now? :D
15:20:43  <TrueBrain> +can
15:21:03  * Sacro considers writing a daylength patch
15:21:30  <FLHerne> Definitely aren't enough of those
15:22:10  <Sacro> FLHerne: mine was the first
15:22:59  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you can have the expectation, but at the moment I don't have the environment to make one
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15:23:23  <TrueBrain> guess you have some work to do when you get home :P :P :P
15:25:16  <LordAro> ^
15:25:23  <TrueBrain> goes for you too LordAro :P
15:25:28  <LordAro> *fine*
15:25:33  <TrueBrain> good boy :)
15:25:54  <TrueBrain> nah, tomorrow I will fiddle with getting strgen to work via cmake without endian stuff, make a branch for it, see how that goes
15:25:56  <LordAro> got to deal with some Ada for another 2 hours first though
15:26:03  <TrueBrain> good luck :)
15:26:15  <TrueBrain> guess we need to make a simple cmake parser for sources.list :)
15:27:19  <LordAro> the hardest bit will be handling the #if
15:27:32  <LordAro> could run cpp on it :p
15:27:32  <TrueBrain> yup
15:27:35  <TrueBrain> haha
15:27:39  <TrueBrain> sounds like a plan
15:27:47  <TrueBrain> even if wehave to modify sources.list a bit, as long as the others understand it again
15:27:54  <LordAro> wouldn't be very cross platform though
15:28:17  <LordAro> or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere
15:28:32  <TrueBrain> no clue honestly
15:28:52  <TrueBrain> but in generate(.vbs) has a parser for sources.list .. so I am sure we can figure something out there :)
15:30:16  <LordAro> is the goal not to get rid of the generate scripts entirely?
15:30:22  <TrueBrain> over time, sure
15:30:28  <TrueBrain> but never go for the goal, always make a step towards it
15:30:47  <TrueBrain> BE AGILE! :D
15:31:22  <Sacro> openttd/bionic 1.7.1-1build1 amd64
15:31:23  <nielsm> okay theoretically I think you could write a module for msbuild that allows you to read an external source to generate items for the compile
15:31:26  <Sacro> Will I get away with it in the office
15:31:41  <nielsm> which would mean it could read source.list directly and produce something
15:31:56  <nielsm> except that wouldn't cover the .vcxproj.filters stuff which is handled differently iirc
15:31:59  <TrueBrain> nielsm: only we are talking about cmake; not msbuild :)
15:32:15  <nielsm>  <LordAro> or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere
15:32:55  <nielsm> but I think either vs2017 or maybe the next version might have direct support for cmake?
15:32:56  <TrueBrain> if you go that road, build a custom application to do the conversion for you
15:32:59  <TrueBrain> I mean ... ;)
15:33:15  <Sacro> I think 2017 does
15:33:16  <TrueBrain> happy you caught on; VS2017 supports CMake, the whole reason I started this ;)
15:33:32  <Sacro>
15:33:41  <TrueBrain> the whole of vcpkg uses it
15:33:55  <nielsm> but what would need a preprocessor then?
15:33:57  <TrueBrain> blathijs: ICU Layout needs replacing
15:34:06  <TrueBrain> blathijs: there are drop-in replacements for it
15:34:11  <TrueBrain> blathijs: but OpenTTD currently still needs it :)
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15:34:21  <TrueBrain> blathijs: LordAro keeps telling me he is working on it .. he is just slacking :P
15:34:41  <Sacro> TrueBrain: are you trying to bring everyone else out the woodwork?
15:34:42  <TrueBrain> (and yes, 18.04 cannot compile OpenTTD :D)
15:34:54  <Sacro> Can it not? I've not tried
15:34:58  <LordAro> last i got to was deciding pango wasn't worth the effort, and going for harfbuzz instead
15:35:01  <TrueBrain> Sacro: no, blathijs asked a question in another channel; thought it was better to answer him here :)
15:35:16  <TrueBrain> LordAro: that should be an easy fix. Vendor icu-le-hb, and go go go :)
15:35:26  <TrueBrain> Sacro: 18.04 comes with ICU 60, which doesnt have the Layout engine
15:35:43  <Sacro> Ahh, I didn't know that, I don't do any icu dev anyway
15:36:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, but that's the hacky fix
15:36:07  <LordAro> i want to do it properly
15:36:18  <blathijs> Let me repeat it
15:36:19  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but we dont have 3 years; 18.04 is due this week? :)
15:36:22  <blathijs> Anyone know how much we really need the ICU ParagraphLayout? Seems we use it for wordwrapping with right-to-left support at quick glance
15:36:25  <blathijs> Apparently support for it is a bit dodgy in ICU: the layout framework it uses was deprecated for buggyness, removed from icu and is now developed as a separate library apparently, which significantly complicates compiling the Debian packages (since the external library depends on ICU, whose ParagraphLayout part again depends on the external lib). Apparently we're the only ones in Debian that
15:36:26  <LordAro> TrueBrain: yesterday, actually :p
15:36:27  <blathijs> actually uses the ParagraphLayout, so things might get easier if we wouldn't :-p
15:36:31  <blathijs>
15:36:56  <TrueBrain> LordAro: so if wecan fix this by vendoring some code and adding hb as dep, and be done in a weekend; later we can do it properly :)
15:37:09  <LordAro> blathijs: iirc, it's only "required" for RTL texts
15:37:12  <blathijs> Note that that post suggests asking the OpenTTD folks, but I've not been asked so far (I just stumbled upon this post by accident)
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15:38:36  <blathijs> LordAro: What would be alternatives? SKipping ParagraphLayout and using icu-le-hb directly?
15:38:46  <blathijs> Or completely implmenting it ourselves?
15:38:58  <Rubidium> the latter is bonkers
15:39:10  <LordAro> icu-le-hb is the shortterm make-it-work fix
15:39:20  <LordAro> longer term, porting to "native" harfbuzz
15:39:25  <Rubidium> as it's not only for the order of the characters, but also for the joining of glyphs
15:40:23  <blathijs> Oh, I thought icu-le-hb and harfbuzz were the same. I haven't really read up yet :-)
15:40:44  <TrueBrain> icu-le-hb is een drop-in replacement for the Layout stuff in ICU to work with HB
15:40:56  <TrueBrain> it basically implements the ICU interface on top of HB
15:41:10  <TrueBrain> its very clever tbh :)
15:41:58  <LordAro> incidentally, there's no debian package for it
15:42:05  <LordAro> which would complicate things
15:42:08  <TrueBrain> like I said, I would vendor ice-le-hb
15:42:15  <TrueBrain> it is very small, very simple
15:42:29  <LordAro> no licencing issues?
15:42:49  <TrueBrain> possibly we need to extend our license that we have a vendored package with another license
15:43:22  <andythenorth> karma will repay me for this next comment
15:43:30  <TrueBrain> we already have that solved because of squirrel
15:43:33  <TrueBrain> so license cannot be a problem :)
15:43:34  <andythenorth> my proxy, temp, placeholder sprite to find a size
15:43:43  <andythenorth> is better than some of the release sets I'm looking at :P
15:43:49  <andythenorth> I will suffer for my arrogance ;P
15:44:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: and ice-le-hb license allows vendoring
15:44:41  <TrueBrain> so from what I can see, it is just a matter of dropping ice-le-hb in 3rdparty folder
15:44:57  <TrueBrain> add HB as dependency, upgrade ICU, and lalalaaa
15:45:05  <TrueBrain> I keep writing ice-le-hb .. it is icu-le-hb
15:45:10  <TrueBrain> dunno why my fingers do this ..
15:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you're secretly wanting some ice cream
15:47:42  <Sacro> Or a german train
15:48:30  <peter1138> Not so secretly.
15:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> from Lippe to Bremen?
15:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, LE seems to stand for "Lemgo" (in Lippe)
15:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow don't think they have an ICE connection :p
15:52:08  <peter1138> Well, it's Friday and I go home in 8 minutes.
15:52:28  <peter1138> Maybe I will check out this icu-le-hb library.
15:52:36  <TrueBrain> please do :)
15:52:40  <peter1138> pango itself doesn't seem to be the right thing to use.
15:52:42  <TrueBrain> solves a lot of dependency issues :)
15:53:03  <peter1138> The thing with "joining of glyphs" is... do we need that?
15:53:12  <peter1138> Kerning I guess?
15:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> arabic?
15:53:24  <peter1138> Hmm
15:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> some languages are full of these things
15:53:29  <peter1138> Ah, ok
15:54:00  <peter1138> Fortunately harfbuzz has a vcpkg port :)
15:54:06  <TrueBrain> :D
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16:17:18  <nielsm> what is the proper way to use media/baseset/translations.awk, is there a make target for it or something?
16:20:13  <blathijs> TrueBrain: LordAro: Sorry, was away for a bit
16:21:12  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Ah, I see about icu-le-hb. The bug I linked above suggests that there will be a Debian package for icu-le-hb, which is what they'll be using to get ParagraphLayout working on the upcoming ICU version
16:25:17  <blathijs> Apparently the layout stuff was removed from ICU 58, but Debian is still at 57, so this was not a problem before
16:29:18  <blathijs> TrueBrain: In any case, I think that icu-le-hb won't help directly (either in Debian or vendored), since we use ParagraphLayout, which is *not* in in icu-le-hb, but still in icu for some reason
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16:34:00  <andythenorth> should I play OpenTTD?
16:34:13  <peter1138> blathijs, ParagraphLayout is still in ICU.
16:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> actually play the game? what blasphemy
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16:34:36  <peter1138> Play?
16:34:49  <peter1138> Hmm, this Qwertee t-shirt is... very thin :S
16:35:42  <nielsm> I split my GUI changes for music into a separate PR, which I think should be easier to review ;)
16:35:51  <peter1138> Thanks
16:36:18  <nielsm> and the rest is also much more cleaned now
16:36:39  <nielsm> I can't think of any more immediate improvements
16:37:16  <nielsm> apart from having the (untested) parts actually tested so those notes can be removed
16:37:29  <peter1138> Actually tested or just compiled?
16:37:50  <peter1138> Hmm, cold. Might put the heating on.
16:38:00  <nielsm> actually tested
16:38:19  <nielsm> the big thing is whether you can get the dos version music playing on non-windows systems
16:38:32  <nielsm> the CI compiles do pass for it
16:38:57  <andythenorth> peter1138: get your big coat
16:40:25  <peter1138> Problem is it's too big.
16:40:46  <LordAro> cut it in half!
16:40:54  <peter1138> Not quite that big :p
16:41:00  <LordAro> cut a bit of it!
16:41:20  <peter1138> Losing weight is expensive ;(
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16:44:10  <andythenorth> let's try NoCarGoal again
16:44:22  <andythenorth> can't remember if I hacked it in place to fix the cargos :P
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16:45:43  <andythenorth> yup, I broke it
16:45:49  <andythenorth> oops
16:48:39  <blathijs> peter1138: Yes, that's what I said, ParagraphLayout is in ICU, not icu-le-hb, which creates a weird circular dependency. Moving it to icu-le-hb would seem sensible, since that seems to be the only lib to offer the layout enging dependencies needed by ParagraphLayout.
16:49:52  <peter1138> I don't think there's any circular dependency, you can just link both.
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16:50:46  <peter1138> > TESCO
16:55:32  <blathijs> peter1138: icu-le-hb (and/or Harfbuzz) depends on ICU, so to build ParagraphLayout you need to build ICU without ParagraphLayout first, then build icu-le-hb, then build again with ParagraphLayout AFAIU
16:55:42  <blathijs> peter1138:
16:55:45  <blathijs> TESCO?
16:56:07  <blathijs> Hm, some store apparently
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17:02:27  <TrueBrain> blathijs: people suggest that icu-le-hb resolves the LayoutEngine problem that is no longer in ICU; I suggest we just give it a try, and see what it does
17:02:38  <TrueBrain> from everything I read, HB really did their best to make transition as easy as possible
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17:29:17  <Thedarkb-X40> I'm trying to configure the Company Value GS
17:32:17  <Thedarkb-X40> I'm confused as to what units it actually uses.
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17:42:17  <blathijs> TrueBrain: I think we do not actually need to change anything to try that, as long as the Debian icu package does the right dance to compile ParagraphLayout against icu-le-hb
17:42:50  <blathijs> TrueBrain: But the icu maintainer seems to imply that it would be better if that dance was not required, which would be the case if OpenTTD stopped using ParagraphLayout
17:43:16  <TrueBrain> sorry to break it to you, but Debian is not our only customer :D
17:43:36  <TrueBrain> we need a fix that works on every OS :)
17:43:53  <TrueBrain> give peter1138 a bit of time to try it out, see what happens
17:44:40  <andythenorth> did anyone patch roadstops that don't need orientation?
17:44:49  <andythenorth> cos it's kind of silly having to choose a direction
17:45:15  <glx> feel free to make a PR andythenorth :)
17:45:17  <blathijs> TrueBrain: True, but it would indeed seem that no changes are required on the OpenTTD side in any case, only in building icu (but I guess for some platforms, building icu is done by us, not the OS vendor indeed)
17:45:48  <peter1138> andythenorth, you mean automatically picking the right orientation?
17:45:51  <andythenorth> yair
17:46:12  <glx> I agree it's a smart idea
17:46:14  <andythenorth> there are only a couple of valid bit patterns
17:46:21  <peter1138> TrueBrain, to be fair, it sounds like blathijs has done more reading on it than me now ;)
17:46:31  <andythenorth> if they're not valid, don't build
17:46:39  <TrueBrain> blathijs: I try to switch that we build not 3rd party what so ever .. not ICU, not anything else :P
17:47:44  <glx> TrueBrain: I think vs140 and vs141 vcprojx will need an upgrade for vcpkg
17:48:00  <TrueBrain> glx: that statement is very vague :)
17:48:03  <glx> else it's a pain to use static stuff
17:48:11  <TrueBrain> you mean the library names?
17:48:22  <TrueBrain> I just renamed the bunch :P
17:48:24  <TrueBrain> but yes
17:48:38  <TrueBrain> I think cmake is more promising, and make that work with vcpkg
17:48:42  <blathijs> LordAro: A while ago, you said you looked at pango but it was not worth it and going for harfbuzz directly would be better. But AFAUI Harfbuzz doesn't offer directionality detection and doesn't offer linebreaking, (which Pango and ICU with Paragraphlayout does), so would you suggeste we implement that ourselves on top of Harfbuzz?
17:48:43  <TrueBrain> than we can just deprecated vs141+ :)
17:49:00  <glx> not only the library names, by default vcpkg integration only support dynamic
17:49:25  <TrueBrain> yes; you have to tell vcpkg to use the static triplet
17:49:39  <TrueBrain> not sure if adding stuff to vcprojx is worth it
17:49:39  <Thedarkb-X40> I think there's something broken with Company Value GS
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17:49:57  * blathijs is off for a bit. I'll see if I can ping the ICU maintainer, maybe he has an idea how this ICU-loop-mess is going to be fixed on the longer run, or if there are alternative libraries to consider porting to.
17:49:58  <glx> so x64-windows-static stuff is still searched in x64-windows and not found
17:50:19  <TrueBrain> VcpkgTriplet=x64-windows-static
17:50:22  <TrueBrain> is needed as option
17:50:27  <TrueBrain> euh, property they are called :P
17:50:33  <peter1138> blathijs, I looked briefly into Pango, it appears very tidied in with gdk rendering surfaces. I may have been looking at the wrong thing though.
17:50:37  <glx> in our project files yes
17:50:39  <TrueBrain> vcpkg has a page about how to do static glx :)
17:50:39  <peter1138> *tied in
17:50:45  <TrueBrain> well, not project perse .. just somewhere
17:50:57  <TrueBrain> but I think it is not worth adding to our project, and that adding cmake support is easier/more flexible
17:51:01  <Thedarkb-X40> It works but the units are wrong.
17:51:23  <TrueBrain> Thedarkb-X40: "units are wrong". This is very vague. A bit more info really helps :)
17:51:50  <Thedarkb-X40> It says it goes up in 1000 pound increments.
17:52:11  <glx>
17:52:24  <glx> it says to put it in our vcprojx
17:52:58  <TrueBrain> lol, thought they said to put it in your personal thingy
17:53:16  <Thedarkb-X40> But in practice it goes up in £500 increments.
17:53:19  <Thedarkb-X40> It's annoying.
17:53:20  <TrueBrain> anyway, I dont really mind/care :) What everworks for you glx :)
17:53:28  <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, did you check your currency settings?
17:53:38  <Thedarkb-X40> It's in pounds.
17:53:42  <TrueBrain> glx: the buildstuff just adds /p:VcpkgTriplet= to msbuild :D
17:54:05  <glx> not VS friendly ;)
17:54:32  <peter1138> This cmake stuff, does that somehow replace the vs project file?
17:54:38  <TrueBrain> but if you are going to make Vcpkg fixes, possibly think about a way to also fix the library names :)
17:54:39  <peter1138> Seems odd if it does.
17:54:44  <TrueBrain> it does, completely
17:54:50  <TrueBrain> as far as I understand, anyway
17:55:29  <glx> but cmake uses msbuild
17:55:44  <glx> and I think cmake generates project files too
17:56:14  <TrueBrain> from cmake, you can generate anything basically :)
17:56:27  <TrueBrain> but it does it for you, is the idea: )
17:56:36  <peter1138> Cool
17:56:39  <nielsm> I think you have a stub vcxproj that loads the cmake and generates a full msbuild project
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18:04:48  <Thedarkb-X40> I don't know why I'm spelling out £
18:05:02  <Thedarkb-X40> I have an Irish keyboard layout.
18:05:06  <Thedarkb-X40> I have $€£
18:07:10  <Thedarkb-X40> The company value GS just pauses the game in singleplayer.
18:07:20  <Thedarkb-X40> Will it reset it in multiplayer?
18:07:34  <TrueBrain> who is the author of this GS?
18:08:55  <Thedarkb-X40> I think I should probably switch machines if I'm going to watch youtube videos and run openTTD at the same time.
18:08:57  <Thedarkb-X40> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.40GHz (1.20GHz) • Memory: Physical: 1.2 GiB Total (434.3 MiB Free) Swap: 945.3 MiB Total (740.5 MiB Free) • Storage: 14.6 GB / 31.8 GB (17.2 GB Free) • VGA: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device @ Intel Corporation 82852/82855 GM/GME/PM/GMV Processor to I/O Contr
18:08:57  <Thedarkb-X40> oller • Uptime: 1d 22h 58m 7s
18:09:18  <TrueBrain> no need for that spam plz
18:09:50  <Thedarkb-X40> Oh, sorry, it's just /sysinfo in hexchat.
18:10:04  <TrueBrain> even if it is a crown on top of a monkey :)
18:10:05  <ST2> eh, he forgot the credit card number, pin, etc xD
18:10:19  <TrueBrain> ghehe :D
18:10:36  <Thedarkb-X40> It was xarick
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18:11:12  <peter1138> That's... a pretty basic machine :p
18:11:33  <peter1138> Hmm, I have more RAM than you have storage, nice.
18:11:47  <Thedarkb-X40> This only takes 1.8 inch hard drives.
18:11:52  <Thedarkb-X40> That's a dead format.
18:12:22  <Thedarkb-X40> So I put in an msata drive in an adapter with blue tack.
18:14:16  <LordAro> blathijs: i have to say i don't know much about this. I was initially turned on to pango by frosch123, but after looking at it some, and looking at its dependencies (glib, among others), decided to try harfbuzz instead. Documentation for either library is basically nonexistent, so i've not really got any idea what features either support
18:19:57  *** tokai has quit IRC
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18:20:39  * andythenorth found the original soundtrack
18:20:43  <andythenorth> sounds ok on mac midi
18:23:41  <frosch123> LordAro: blathijs: initially i looked into harfbuzz and its icu wrapper, but concluded that it does not implement what we need. it only layouts a single line, no paragraphs. pango looked like the higher level one, with quite some documnetation, but it needs adjustment to out custom renderer
18:25:17  <TrueBrain> who thought it would be difficult, something as simple as letters :D
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18:36:29  * andythenorth wants 'close dock'
18:36:33  <andythenorth> so I can relocate it
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18:41:26  <peter1138> Well
18:41:29  <blathijs> frosch123: Yeah, that's also my understanding. However, apparently the paragraph layout still exists in ICU, but it's a mess wrt dependencies. As for pango, I suspect it has a lot of dependencies indeed, which might not make it a good candidate just for wordwrapping...
18:41:32  <peter1138> And platforms?
18:41:43  <peter1138> Road stops?
18:42:03  <peter1138> Yeah, closing any sort of station tile would be useful sometimes.
18:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel we have had this discussion already
18:42:16  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, stations or icu? or both :p
18:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the stations
18:42:41  <peter1138> There's probably a patch for it.
18:42:46  <peter1138> Isn't there airport closing?
18:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we included that
18:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure
18:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> because the discussion was endless
18:43:21  <peter1138> Heh
18:43:27  <peter1138> I can't remember why I might've objected to it.
18:43:40  <peter1138> Can't have things that make life easier, eh?
18:43:42  <frosch123> blathijs: which system do you have in mind, which would run a openttd client and does not have pango?
18:43:51  <peter1138> Windows :)
18:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> whether we should include it like it was, or extend it to some or all the things you listed above
18:43:55  <peter1138> DOS
18:44:04  <peter1138> Is OS/2 still around? hehe
18:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> do we still have a morphos user?
18:44:31  <frosch123> we got some os/2 patches 2 years ago
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18:45:05  <peter1138> Hmm, I guess the thing is "Close airport" works on the whole thing, and is station-window based
18:45:08  <frosch123> anyway, with c++14 we likely drop all of them including 9x
18:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we dropped morphos when we dropped gcc 2.ancient, but there were talks that "soon" there might be an update to gcc 4
18:45:29  <andythenorth> airport closing is a thing
18:45:33  <andythenorth> and works well
18:45:39  <blathijs> frosch123: Dunno, I don't have a clear view of the targets OpenTTD still supports :-)
18:45:47  <Thedarkb-X40> I don't know about dropping OS/2
18:45:55  <andythenorth> the problem with docks is that all the ships turn around when you demolish the dock to relocate it
18:45:58  <Thedarkb-X40> ArcaOS is a thing.
18:46:01  <andythenorth> and ship routes are often long
18:46:20  <peter1138> Yeah, but I've had issues relocating roadstops loads of times too
18:46:24  <peter1138> Platforms are a bit easier
18:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try build while paused?
18:46:38  <peter1138> In MP?
18:47:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: probably works, haven't tried
18:47:11  <andythenorth> good enough for today
18:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody plays MP
18:47:17  <peter1138> :(
18:47:25  <andythenorth> multi-docks would solve this too :P
18:47:31  <Eddi|zuHause> like <1% of all players
18:47:34  <peter1138> Yes. I had a patc.... oh
18:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
18:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> think maybe we should drop MP? would solve loads of problems :p
18:49:12  <andythenorth> halloumi, rice and chips
18:49:17  <andythenorth> do I miss any major food groups?
18:49:42  <peter1138> "We dropped MP to let you use more NewGRFs"
18:49:42  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what are your thoughts on ? is the no-output-on-success a reasonable thing? or is it silly since eints and jenkins do not care?
18:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like anything involving meat?
18:49:58  <peter1138> "But then we dropped NewGRFs because modern games use scripting languages instead"
18:50:03  <peter1138> "With no specs"
18:50:14  <andythenorth> drop trains
18:50:54  <andythenorth> why does site search 'tt-forums' search ebay in my chrome :P
18:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> '); drop table trains; --?
18:51:02  <peter1138> Rice and chips is basically one food group though.
18:51:12  <peter1138> Good ol' starch.
18:51:26  <andythenorth> might as well have both
18:51:43  <andythenorth> @seen zuu
18:51:44  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Zuu> Oh and I think this whole OpenTTD moving to git is a good thing by the way.
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18:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd argue "chips" is ambiguous
18:51:55  <andythenorth> fries
18:52:27  <andythenorth> NoCarGoal should have an option to delete my money
18:52:35  <andythenorth> I usually win it by mass-funding industries
18:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you can, like, disable funding?
18:53:14  <andythenorth> then it can't be won
18:53:20  <andythenorth> well, not at the goal levels I set
18:53:23  <andythenorth> there's some interim
18:53:40  * andythenorth wonders if GS can read fund costs
18:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> probably, but what would it do with it?
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18:54:53  <andythenorth> remove money so that you can only fund occasionally
18:55:00  <andythenorth> winning by funding is a valid tactic
18:55:14  <andythenorth> but capping money would incentivise transporting more than just the goal cargos
18:55:41  <andythenorth> I could just put industry prices up :P
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19:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "balancing", which this game is generally terrible at
19:08:42  <Thedarkb-X40> There's a reason why planes are disabled on my server.
19:09:39  <peter1138> Infrastructure costs?
19:10:20  <andythenorth> should I PR this? o_O
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19:20:26  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is normal in CIs that errors are marked as "wrong". So a message always to the stderr seems wrong
19:20:31  <TrueBrain> to the stdout is  not a problem
19:21:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: "no output on success", what do you mean exactly?
19:21:17  <Lap_op> is this a MP game?
19:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause> allegedly
19:22:18  <TrueBrain> you can go through life SP just fine
19:22:20  <frosch123> TrueBrain: "stdout" is never visible. So "no output on success" means "no message to stderr, if there is no problem"
19:22:33  <Lap_op> TDM FFA CTF COOP?
19:22:59  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I would very much prefer that any message on stderr is because of an error
19:23:13  <TrueBrain> stdout is for everything else
19:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that kind of classification applies well :p
19:23:28  <andythenorth> Lap_op:
19:23:32  <TrueBrain> (if that answers your question :D)
19:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> +
19:23:48  <frosch123> i take it as agreement :p
19:23:52  <Lap_op> so its COOP
19:23:56  <andythenorth> Lap_op: other MP modes are available
19:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that was actually my keyboard slipping away :p
19:24:09  <andythenorth> there are goal servers that have a patched version of the game
19:24:12  <andythenorth> somewhere on reddit
19:24:14  <frosch123> Lap_op: how do you classify minecraft?
19:24:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: :D I am not fully sure I understand you, but yeah .. we seem to be saying the same :) The patch needs a fix, is my conclusion :)
19:24:22  <andythenorth> citybuilder and so on
19:24:31  <Lap_op> FFA?
19:24:46  <Lap_op> never played minecraft
19:24:59  <frosch123> Lap_op: in that case there are different servers. some do coop, some do ffa, some do ladder
19:24:59  <Lap_op> MMORPG
19:25:26  <andythenorth> not so much MM
19:25:30  <andythenorth> or RPG
19:25:44  <Lap_op> minecraft is MMORPG as far as i can gather
19:25:46  <frosch123> rpg in ottd is only singleplayer
19:26:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: just O? :)
19:26:09  <andythenorth> pretty much :)
19:26:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen people around here acting like it's an RPG :p
19:26:45  <andythenorth> "I am Brunel"
19:26:52  <andythenorth> hmm
19:26:57  <andythenorth> "|'m Spartacus"
19:27:14  <Pikka> openttd CTF sounds fun though
19:27:24  <andythenorth> is Pikka :O
19:27:34  <TrueBrain> first to the industry wins .. guess it is CTF :P
19:27:43  <andythenorth> TrueBrain said Pikka had rage quit
19:28:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth believed what TrueBrain said
19:28:11  <andythenorth> but the logs said it too
19:28:12  <Lap_op> if there was a network tycoon mod CTF would make plenty of sence
19:28:39  <Lap_op> sense
19:28:52  * andythenorth wonders about a CTF gamescript
19:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe something asymmetric like in Team Fortress where one company must connect two industries and delver some cargo, and the other company must do all in its power to prevent it?
19:29:19  <peter1138> Nah, it's too easy to prevent it.
19:29:20  <andythenorth> I was thinking of forcing a start on opposite sides of the map
19:29:20  <TrueBrain> some MPs feel like that :P
19:29:24  <andythenorth> and capture the centre
19:29:33  <andythenorth> but with high building costs or something
19:29:40  <andythenorth> can GS modify building costs for part of the map?
19:29:42  <Lap_op> were can i get the bots to play for me?
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19:29:57  <andythenorth> Lap_op: there are AIs
19:30:02  <andythenorth> downloadable content
19:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> how about OpenTTDota?
19:30:06  <andythenorth> not sure if any servers run AIs
19:30:19  <Lap_op> AIbot
19:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have a bot in a player company
19:31:14  <Pikka> can't you, Eddi?
19:31:22  <Lap_op> you can if you run the server
19:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: there's like one line of code to prevent it :p
19:31:48  <Pikka> oops :)
19:32:00  <Lap_op> since its opensource you could edit that line out
19:32:14  <Lap_op> big deal
19:32:20  <Pikka> you can switch into ai companies in singleplayer
19:32:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Lap_op: well technically, even any client could comment that line out
19:32:55  <Pikka> but unless the ai is very simple or was written to be cooperative, it's unlikely to be very playable... :)
19:33:09  <Lap_op> so the AI is readily available
19:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no real way for the server to make sure the commands it receives are from a human
19:34:15  <peter1138> Wasn't the AI system conceived so that AIs could fight it out?
19:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly there are rate limits
19:34:42  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think that's where we got Rondje from :p
19:35:13  <Lap_op> you just need the AI to start easy and keeps growing to tackle the real player at the most infuriating point of his develpment plan
19:35:42  <Lap_op> you know the boiling frogs metodology
19:35:54  <LordAro> which is an urban myth
19:36:17  <Lap_op> what?
19:36:27  <LordAro> the boiling frogs thing
19:36:28  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: & (seems to work for me; haven't and can't test it on big endian though). First is the change, second is some cleanup
19:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there once was a patch that placed a sign like "hey i'm watching you", whereever a player did something
19:36:52  <Lap_op> you realize boiling frogs is a metaphore?
19:36:57  <LordAro> the scientist had to basically lobotomise the frogs to stop them from jumping out of the water
19:37:00  <LordAro> yea
19:37:29  <Pikka> Eddi: I want AIs to have access to the chat (in SP too), so they can more easily trash-talk
19:37:33  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nice :D Now make a PR out of it so I can review it properly :D
19:37:35  <Lap_op> it makes perfect sense
19:37:55  <Pikka> signs and the debug log just aren't enough :P
19:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: would that look anything like the chat in Goat Simulator RPG?
19:38:30  <Lap_op> must be smiling faces season over here
19:39:06  <Pikka> it's always a happy place in here, Lap_op
19:40:11  <Lap_op> who can you teall its always happy if you dont have comparison point?
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19:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> if the tree falls in the wood and makes no sound, how can you know nobody is watching?
19:41:19  <Lap_op> acording to einstatein everything is relative
19:41:34  <Pikka> there's plenty to compare it to. I think most of us have experience of life outside this irc channel...
19:41:52  <LordAro> outside? i don't understand
19:42:18  <Thedarkb-X40> Outside.... you mean the OpenTTD subreddit, right?
19:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he means other channels?
19:42:22  <Lap_op> Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you are deaf
19:42:35  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, Goat MMO  Simulator :D
19:42:36  <Lap_op> Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you gone deaf
19:42:45  <peter1138> The positioning of the word Simulator is important.
19:42:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: ah that's the name
19:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i forgot
19:43:12  <peter1138> The trash talk was quite convincing.
19:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i played it on a free weekend, was about all of Goat Simulator i could suffer :p
19:43:57  <Thedarkb-X40> That must be it.
19:44:00  <Thedarkb-X40> #/r/openttd
19:44:03  <Thedarkb-X40> That's outside.
19:44:12  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, oh yes, it's crap
19:44:33  <andythenorth> I made a goat game once
19:44:45  <TrueBrain> nobody played it?
19:45:23  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remember when there were half a dozen Moorhuhn games?
19:45:55  <Lap_op> :(
19:46:07  <Thedarkb-X40> LGR has a boxed copy of goat sim.
19:46:12  <Thedarkb-X40> God only knows where that's from.
19:46:39  <Lap_op> this channel is becoming sad all of a sudden
19:47:32  <Lap_op> whats about all this goat talk?
19:47:43  <peter1138> GOATS!
19:47:44  <TrueBrain> you do know which channel you joined, right?
19:47:53  <andythenorth> OpenGTD
19:49:03  <Lap_op> ive seen a movie about goats
19:49:40  <Lap_op> haven't you?
19:50:39  <Lap_op> The Men Who Stare at Goats
19:51:25  <Lap_op> are you still here?
19:52:02  <Lap_op> seems like this is the only live channel on this network
19:52:09  <peter1138> Hmm, if I add GUI sprites to the game, should I put them in openttdgui.png or a separate image?
19:52:18  <andythenorth> is the movie any good?
19:52:22  <andythenorth>  I read the book
19:52:28  <peter1138> I guess in the same image is how we've always done it.
19:52:37  <andythenorth> seems trad
19:52:39  <Lap_op> is the book anygood?
19:52:42  <frosch123> peter1138: if you add them to the ottdgui action5, also add them to openttdgui.png imo
19:53:18  <peter1138> Is there such a thing as an image diff? :D
19:53:20  <andythenorth> Lap_op: book is ok
19:53:29  <andythenorth> peter1138: in photoshop, yes :P
19:53:34  <andythenorth> it doesn't do what you want though
19:53:39  <andythenorth> you could write one in PIL
19:54:28  <peter1138> The image you sent me is nearly twice the size.
19:54:44  <andythenorth> possibly terrible compression
19:54:56  <andythenorth> let me see
19:55:21  <andythenorth> photoshop has a habit of bloating pngs if not kept on a leash
19:56:00  <andythenorth> peter1138: how big is it for you in KB?
19:56:13  <peter1138> Ah, the layer modes don't work in indexed mode.
19:56:40  <peter1138> 26KB vs 43KB
19:56:50  <peter1138> I reexported it in Gimp and it's now 26KB
19:57:00  <Thedarkb-X40> one of my neighbours has a goat.
19:57:02  <andythenorth> yeah I got the same in photoshop
19:57:06  <Thedarkb-X40> It looks angry all the time.
19:57:12  <andythenorth> let's hope it's supposed to be DOS palette eh :P
19:57:33  <Thedarkb-X40> Imagine OpenTTD in EGA
19:57:47  <peter1138> Hmm, which palette though?
19:57:58  <Thedarkb-X40> That awful one used by sopwith
19:58:08  <Thedarkb-X40> Some CGA games looked very good.
19:58:13  <peter1138> Hmm, actually it had a 64 colour mode. Hmm.
19:58:13  <Thedarkb-X40> Like digger.
19:59:52  <andythenorth> proper graphics
19:59:59  <glx> TrueBrain: using vcpkg static libs (except icu still from useful-6.0) openttd.exe x64 release is 13.4MB
20:00:07  <andythenorth> look at the refresh rate :P
20:00:25  <TrueBrain> glx: hmm .. so it is either ICU, or VS2017 ...
20:00:29  <TrueBrain> closing in on the issue :D
20:00:44  <TrueBrain> tomorrow I will see if I can locally build it on VS2017
20:01:33  <peter1138> andythenorth, my BBC Micro had a hardware flaw: in Mode 2, colour 6 defaulted to green instead of cyan.
20:01:43  <andythenorth> ugh
20:01:49  <peter1138> It could be fixed by updating the palette, but of course, nothing ever did that.
20:01:55  <peter1138> It made jcbdigger a bit harder
20:01:57  <peter1138> and citadel
20:01:58  <andythenorth> I think that game caused HEQS :P
20:05:14  <peter1138> Warning on sprite 1533 (level 1).
20:05:19  <peter1138> Wow, that's useful.
20:07:07  <frosch123> yes, that warning is the reason i think we should drop renum
20:07:43  <frosch123> too much chicken/egg for just getting sprite 0 right
20:08:04  <andythenorth> do I need boats with more capacity? :P
20:09:28  <peter1138> Hmm, sprite 0 is 0 as it should be.
20:10:50  <frosch123> we only need renum to put the "number of sprites in the grf" into sprite 0
20:10:56  <peter1138> multidocks!
20:11:07  <peter1138> Ah
20:11:25  <frosch123> we always get the renum warning "you added more ottd gui sprites, than renum thinks ottd expects"
20:11:40  <frosch123> which is a bit stupid :p
20:11:43  <peter1138> could we just disable the warning?
20:11:49  <peter1138> (which i've done for now)
20:12:05  <frosch123> if there is such option, it would make sense
20:12:17  <peter1138> It's kinda correct but yeah, makes adding things harder.
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20:17:39  <peter1138> andythenorth, damn, those icons are right for the group window but the livery window ones are a bit larger ;(
20:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> SimCity 1 was available as EGA game
20:17:44  <peter1138> yay consistency
20:17:50  <andythenorth> peter1138: yay
20:17:58  <andythenorth> want me to do something?
20:18:10  <Thedarkb-X40> I can't understand why everyone used shitty palettes on EGA?
20:18:23  <glx> no choice
20:18:47  <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, the palette could only be changed in 640x350 mode.
20:18:50  <andythenorth> looks like livery window icons are same size as toolbar
20:18:53  <Thedarkb-X40> Ah
20:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "EGA" for me always meant 64 colours
20:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what paletes you mean
20:19:10  <Thedarkb-X40> I was thinking because a few CGA games look good.
20:19:23  <peter1138> EGA has 16 colours, but in 640x350 those colours could be chosen from a total of 64 colours.
20:19:28  <andythenorth> group window icons are some arbitrary amount smaller :P
20:19:56  <andythenorth> the proportions are bad on the group window icons anyway :P
20:20:04  <peter1138> 18x18 there, for some reason
20:20:05  <andythenorth> they're too narrow
20:20:12  <peter1138> Maybe we should just pad them to 20x20 like the rest?
20:20:16  <andythenorth> I would
20:20:21  <andythenorth> patch grows :P
20:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there was also a way to display 64 colours at the same time... but my memory might be off after all this time
20:20:30  <andythenorth> do it in trunk :P
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20:20:40  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I thought so too but it seems not.
20:20:58  <Thedarkb-X40> I didn't realise you could only change the palette in 640x350
20:21:13  <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, it's not something that's relevant now :)
20:21:17  <peter1138> I looked it up!
20:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there was also almost definitely also a way to change palette in text mode
20:21:35  <Thedarkb-X40> I can remember doing that in QBASIC.
20:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly with one fewer also
20:21:42  <Thedarkb-X40> On a CGA though.
20:21:49  <Thedarkb-X40> CGA with a monochrome screen.
20:21:55  <Thedarkb-X40> Which is basically just useless.
20:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> CGA was weird, you had 3 palettes of 4 colours?
20:22:23  <peter1138> Yes.
20:22:32  <peter1138> Fixed palettes. Wonderful.
20:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and most people used the one with the weird pink
20:22:42  <Thedarkb-X40> Yup
20:22:50  <Thedarkb-X40> Except for Windmill software.
20:22:51  <peter1138> Yeah, "white", cyan and magenta was the default.
20:22:58  <Thedarkb-X40> They could make CGA look good.
20:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there was white in that
20:23:21  <peter1138> Rarely saw red, cyan and white.
20:23:30  <peter1138> And the other one was red green and yellow.
20:23:34  <peter1138> Because RASTAAAA
20:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there was also one with a brown?
20:23:41  <peter1138> Nope.
20:23:56  <peter1138> Hmm, I think there may have been dark and light versions then.
20:23:58  <peter1138> Cos you are right
20:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but VGA was also a bit silly
20:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> because it somehow lost the colour flexibility from EGA?
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20:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and 256 colours were only available with super low res
20:24:50  <peter1138> Yes, there were dark and light versions.
20:25:11  <peter1138> Yes, because there was not enough memory for 256 colours in high-res.
20:25:27  <peter1138> VGA had 256KB.
20:25:38  <glx> like the cpc and its 16 colours and big pixels
20:25:40  <peter1138> 8bpp in 640x480 is more than that.
20:25:51  <peter1138> Also 16 colour mode was some horrible planar thing.
20:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but somehow the EGA-way of defining colours was also not available in VGA, so you had the fixed 16 colours
20:26:23  <peter1138> I think it may have been.
20:26:27  <peter1138> But nothing used it.
20:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well any VGA card you could run in EGA mode
20:26:53  <peter1138> "The 640×480 16-color and 320×200 256-color modes had fully redefinable palettes, with each entry selectable from within an 18-bit (262,144-color) RGB table"
20:26:56  <peter1138> Hmm.
20:28:57  <peter1138> And then there was MCGA.
20:29:02  <peter1138> Wow, this all totally relevant.
20:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i suppose some games did use that for animated colours
20:29:39  <peter1138> Hmm, Windows Store version of OpenTTD. I wonder what's involved with that.
20:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there was a forum topic a la "don't give money to this person"
20:30:11  <glx> I think orudge tried to talk to MS about it
20:30:25  <glx> but I'm not sure
20:31:19  <peter1138> Well, MCGA looked the same as the 256 colour VGA mode, but subtle differences behind the scenes.
20:31:57  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, erm, well, there's a forum post asking for OpenTTD on the store. I just wondered what's involved in making that.
20:32:10  <nielsm> biggest challenge in a windows store version will probably be file handling, both downloads, savegames, and perhaps screenshots and the like
20:32:27  <peter1138> I'm sure Windows Store titles can download things.
20:32:35  <nielsm> sure they can, it's where they store them
20:32:40  <peter1138> They probably have a sandboxes local file storage, surely?
20:32:41  <nielsm> and what parts of the FS they can access
20:32:55  <nielsm> you can't just fopen() random things
20:32:56  <peter1138> Doesn't need anything other than its own storage.
20:33:24  <glx> I think they have limited local storage space
20:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: openttd can easily be configured where to store files other than "Documents"
20:34:04  <nielsm> I'm not saying it will be a gigantic challenge, just that it will probably be the part that requires most care compared to everything else
20:34:35  <glx> anyway store apps have some limitations compared to desktop apps
20:35:04  <peter1138> So, let's get their source to see what's changed. And then if possible make an official free version.
20:35:14  <peter1138> I dunno about licensing, mind you.
20:39:26  <glx> oh the "disclaimer" on top of the description was not there last time I checked
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20:48:50  <Thedarkb-X40> What's the point of the Windows store?
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20:52:59  <nielsm> from a user's point of view, installing things from the windows store should be safer, since everything from there runs sandboxed and (barring bugs in the sandbox) can't affect the OS as a whole
20:53:16  <nielsm> which also means uninstalling an app installed from it really does remove everything
20:54:31  <Lap_op> the point of windows store is to mimic apple store and android store
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20:55:16  <peter1138> That too
20:55:35  <peter1138> But there are some Windows editions that can only use the store. Some cut down tablet thing?
20:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure lots of "less literate" computer users benefit from a single "store"
20:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yeah, some school version of windows was (meant to be?) store only
20:56:26  <Lap_op> linux works the same way
20:57:40  <Lap_op> linux store = distro repository
20:58:35  <Lap_op> albeit repositories can be mirrored
20:58:52  <Lap_op> buy anyone
20:58:52  <nielsm> not really, no, the way package managers traditionally work on linux distros is closer to MSI (windows installer) in that the package manager has a database of files installed on the system, but files from all packages are installed mixed together in the directory structure
20:59:18  <nielsm> sure there's then some automated downloading and dependency resolution stuff on top of that
20:59:33  <nielsm> but packages are not isolated from each other
21:00:04  <nielsm> however if distros switch over to packaging everything in docker containers/similar things, then you have a comparison
21:01:58  <Lap_op> there is a distro that already installs every program to its own dir
21:02:13  <Lap_op> like windows \programs\
21:02:28  <Thedarkb-X40> make install
21:02:41  <Thedarkb-X40> is a thing.
21:03:23  <andythenorth> hmm
21:03:35  <andythenorth> specific engines per cargo class would be dumb, right?
21:03:36  <andythenorth> o_O
21:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> "separate directory" is something very different from "isolated virtual machine"
21:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
21:03:49  <andythenorth> ok
21:04:01  <andythenorth> the 'one obvious choice' rule for Iron Horse engines works
21:04:03  <andythenorth> but
21:04:19  <andythenorth> there are a lot of freight cargos, and it gets monotonous choosing the same engine over and again
21:04:37  <Lap_op> i dont think android apps run in isolated virtual machines
21:04:37  <andythenorth> pax has more variety, depending on the route
21:04:46  <Lap_op> do they?
21:05:08  <Lap_op> javaVM?
21:05:25  <nielsm> they do have some level of sandboxing
21:05:42  <nielsm> seLinux based I think?
21:08:36  <nielsm> (if you have bugs in a sandbox, allowing apps to leak out/data to leak in, are they then called termites?)
21:08:47  <Lap_op> google took linux and turned its free philosophy around
21:09:26  <Lap_op> running rootkits in a VM hmm
21:09:46  <Lap_op> should avoid detection
21:10:48  <Lap_op> arguably even more difficult to remove
21:11:22  <Lap_op> the VM is the horse and trojan is inside it
21:11:57  <Lap_op> makes perfect sense
21:13:29  <Lap_op> and since most if not all of them apps are always going online...
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22:41:05  <LordAro> suddenly 8 PRs
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23:38:38  <TrueBrain> ieuw, close them, quick!
23:38:39  <TrueBrain> :D
23:45:39  <TrueBrain> helping people within 32 minutes; now that is a good service-rate :P
23:45:49  <TrueBrain> (ticket #6755)
23:46:33  <LordAro> :)
23:55:13  <Thedarkb-X40> Does the classification hard stuff in ISR actually work?
23:55:16  <Thedarkb-X40> *yard
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