Log for #openttd on 30th April 2018:
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04:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ah you gotta love windows update... "something didn't work"
04:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> with no information what
04:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> also fun is how the windows versions apparently use different versioning system
04:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "the running version is 14393, the running version is 16299"... what happened to versions 1607,1709 etc?
05:10:19  <Eddi|zuHause> nope... update still stopping halfway through
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07:01:02  <V453000> cat 404?
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07:04:25  <andythenorth> 503
07:25:25  <Arveen> the 5 digit numbers is the build number, the 4 digit one the release name
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07:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> sure... but why? i have no clue which is which...
07:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and surely 99.9999% of users neither
07:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but whatever, apparently consistency is too much to ask
08:02:54  <LordAro> marketing reasons mostly, aiui
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08:13:48  <blathijs> LordAro: peter1138: TrueBrain: ICU Debian maintainer replies, without any real solutions (he does suggest that icu-le-hb is potentially buggy and not really maintained, though):
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08:32:31  <peter1138> So direct harfbuzz?
08:32:50  <peter1138> Until that gets dropped :p
08:33:34  <peter1138> libreoffice uses harfbuzz, to answer one of the questions in that bug.
08:35:57  <peter1138>
08:47:22  <Arveen> <- has all the infos what build is which version - and what patch level is current
08:49:10  <Arveen> 1803 / 17134.5 is not listed yet, but will be added soon I guess
08:55:48  <blathijs> peter1138: The problem is that, AFAIU, harfbuzz only offers layouting, not wordwrapping
08:56:51  <blathijs> peter1138: I saw that post before, it also says that harfbuzz doesn't do wrapping (and looking at harfbuzz's site, I don't think that changed since then)
08:57:35  <blathijs> I can imagine Libreoffice and others implement their own word-wrapping on top of harfbuzz, since the layouting is probably the tricker part of the two problems (though looking at the ParagraphLayout code, wordwrapping isn't entirely trivial either)
09:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Arveen: the existence of that page is completely pointless, since it's not accessible from the "everyone should understand this" updater program
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09:19:01  <Arveen> that is true
09:19:36  <Arveen> but that's why we have "something didn't work" blue screens - so everybody understands what's going on :D
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09:25:10  <andythenorth> moin
09:26:07  <Arveen> moni
09:32:07  <andythenorth> Pikka: so 1200hp small engine then :P
09:32:18  <Pikka> yes
09:32:30  <andythenorth> I've brought back the Little Bear
09:32:34  <andythenorth> it was kind of iconic for the set
09:32:36  <Pikka> o/
09:33:11  <andythenorth>
09:33:21  <andythenorth> I tried an 8/8 edition but it looks a bit weird
09:36:53  <Pikka> :D
09:46:46  <andythenorth> ok subject to play-testing, horse engines all done
09:46:51  <andythenorth> I said that twice before :P
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10:52:17  <peter1138> Hi
10:53:02  <peter1138> Hmm, should I make a 2x/4x gui set?
10:53:19  <peter1138> Or are the doubled-up pixels "cute"?
10:53:28  <andythenorth> I like them
10:53:37  <andythenorth> the original base set scales up fine at 2c
10:53:38  <andythenorth> 2x
10:53:47  <peter1138> I always get annoyed by the alignment errors :(
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11:26:26  <peter1138> Bollocks, I edited the wrong text field :p
11:36:33  <FLHerne> I thought there was an EZ gui already
11:37:18  <peter1138> Unless it's been updated, it's from before GUI zoom was implemented, and so the sizes are wrong.
11:38:07  <FLHerne> Yes, just discovered that
11:38:29  <FLHerne>
11:38:41  <FLHerne> Presumably you could steal the actual sprites
11:41:05  <FLHerne> Hm, says the 2x sprites from that set are in the baseset already...
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11:48:35  <Wolf01> o/
12:03:59  <peter1138> They're not.
12:06:14  <peter1138> They may be in OpenGFX. But I don't use that.
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12:45:44  <LorenzoDV> hi there
12:45:53  <Wolf01> Hi
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12:46:39  <LorenzoDV> do you know if nightlies are being built from the new git repo?
12:46:51  <Wolf01> Yes, they are
12:46:51  <andythenorth> not AFAIK
12:46:57  <LorenzoDV> at I only see the last SVN build from the first days of april
12:47:24  <Wolf01> What are we building?
12:47:50  <andythenorth> last trunk was
12:47:56  <andythenorth> oh I am behind :P
12:48:09  <andythenorth> I might be spreading FUD
12:48:20  <LorenzoDV> :)
12:48:26  <andythenorth> I thought binaries were coming from existing CF, and they'll be building last rev from svn
12:48:53  <andythenorth> it's wavey hands though, I am not canonical :P
12:49:25  <Wolf01> I'm too much used to compile it by myself
12:50:39  <peter1138> They're not being built yet.
12:51:25  <peter1138> CI is making builds just to make sure it compiles, they're not published though.
12:51:33  <Wolf01> Oh
12:51:51  <LorenzoDV> ok... I'll finally have to set up my built environment then!
12:54:04  <peter1138> What OS?
12:54:29  <LorenzoDV> @peter1138: yes, in fact I just found the Jenkins server dashboard doing CI, but no artifacts
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13:00:24  <blathijs> peter1138: LordAro: TrueBrain: Just compiled OpenTTD 1.8.0 against ICU60 and icu-le-hb (latter two were prepared by the Debian ICU maintainer in experimental, so no changes to OpenTTD required) and that seems to work. However, AFAUI this approach is fragile, potentially buggy and not really maintained, so it might still be worthwile to look for an alternative.
13:00:54  <peter1138> We've got a ton of ICU-related crashes in the bug reports too.
13:01:45  <blathijs> Would we still need ICU if we switch to Harfbuzz + some word-wrapping implementation? Or does Harfbuzz do everything we need from ICU?
13:02:08  <peter1138> I'm not sure.
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13:05:46  <LordAro> ICU is also used for unicode sorting
13:07:12  <peter1138> So collation. Hmm./
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13:08:56  <LordAro> as far as i know, there have been no issues with that and it's not deprecated :p
13:14:15  <blathijs> Yeah, and string splitting (in words and characters) it seems (curiously guarded by WITH_ICU_SORT)
13:15:59  <blathijs> It also links against LEFontInstance, but that is probably layout-related and provided by Harfbuzz as well
13:17:06  <blathijs> Here's the list of used symbols:
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13:32:03  <blathijs> But it would probably be fine to use both ICU and Harfbuzz side by side (I believe Harfbuzz even has some optional ICU integration, though I can't find anything specific about this just now0
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14:04:03  <Alberth> o/
14:11:59  <peter1138> Hi
14:16:43  <LordAro> hI
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14:22:29  <MPAAA3X6> hello charles
14:22:49  <MPAAA3X6> are you THE Charles?
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14:53:59  <supermop_work> yo
14:54:39  <Alberth> oi
14:56:42  <Pikka> oioi
14:58:21  <andythenorth> seems I've added this to Horse
14:58:25  <andythenorth> by accident
14:58:39  <andythenorth> more retconning :P
14:58:47  <andythenorth> retcon was my word of 2017 :P
15:05:50  <Alberth> rediscovering your own hidden vehicles? :)
15:06:08  <Pikka> does AI brakevan, andythenorth?
15:06:08  <andythenorth> not exactly :)
15:06:20  <andythenorth> Pikka: do you mean 'should it', or 'empirically'?
15:06:31  <Pikka> should it
15:06:50  <andythenorth> if it can
15:06:59  <andythenorth> I do
15:07:24  <Pikka> hmmmm
15:08:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: one of the reasons Horse exists is because pikka wouldn't add that engine to UKRS 2 :)
15:08:13  <andythenorth> but I'd entirely forgotten about it
15:08:16  <Pikka> loco + tender + brakevan is a lot for a TL3 though
15:08:37  <andythenorth> it is
15:08:41  <Alberth> cargo transport is optional :p
15:08:46  <andythenorth> how do you detect brakevan?
15:08:47  <andythenorth> also
15:09:42  <Alberth> and an add-on was a too simple solution, I guess, andy?  :)
15:10:27  <andythenorth> well
15:10:30  <Pikka> by assuming any wagon with 0 capacity is a brakevan, naturally :)
15:10:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: something something 'limited roster of trains'
15:11:05  <andythenorth> can't remember whose idea Horse was :)
15:11:10  <Alberth> before the pixels exploded thus
15:11:39  <Alberth> I think it was a good idea anyway :)
15:13:42  <andythenorth> "DanMacK Tue Sep 03, 2013: Ideas for KISS train Set"
15:16:23  <andythenorth> I think we tried 8 trains originally
15:16:27  <andythenorth> not wise :)
15:16:46  <andythenorth> supermop_work: want to play "name that train"?
15:16:56  <supermop_work> ha
15:17:00  <andythenorth> I need a name that's like Janus, the two headed god
15:17:04  <andythenorth> but isn't Janus
15:17:08  <andythenorth> that's an actual UK engine
15:17:13  <andythenorth> and it can be mythical
15:17:24  <andythenorth> I also have Chimera and Phoenix in UK Horse now
15:17:49  <andythenorth> oh I need names for GWR-style railcars too
15:18:02  <andythenorth> 'Banana' and "Bananagram" are placeholder :P
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15:23:18  <Alberth> fruity vehicles
15:23:47  <supermop_work> how many heads does cerberus have?
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15:24:07  <andythenorth> maybe two
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16:22:29  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> by accident <- how do you add a diesel engine by accident?
16:23:10  <Wolf01> Meh... he's blinking again
16:23:14  <Wolf01> Also quak
16:23:19  <frosch123> hoi
16:23:34  <frosch123> now even the last one should figure out, that andy is the author of xkcd
16:23:41  <LordAro> quak
16:29:30  <Wolf01> Now I understand why the characters of xkcd sometimes resemble some of this chat people :D
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16:38:30  <andythenorth> supermop_work: "Big Keith"? o_O
16:38:31  <andythenorth>
16:38:35  <andythenorth> it replaces "Little Bear"
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16:49:10  <frosch123> LordAro: 6770 does not add any warning for gcc6 or clang3.8. do you have other compilers for testing?
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16:49:42  <LordAro> gcc7 is the one that introduced all the warnings
16:49:46  <LordAro> i'll test when i get home
16:50:28  <frosch123> ok, thanks :)
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17:21:39  <Wolf01> XD
17:26:05  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it's worse than that
17:26:17  <Wolf01> I suspected :P
17:26:26  <andythenorth> they missed Apple Python
17:26:37  <andythenorth> python.buildout (which actually solves all this btw)
17:26:41  <andythenorth> buildout
17:26:45  <andythenorth>
17:26:52  <andythenorth> setuptools
17:26:54  <andythenorth> another setuptools
17:27:01  * andythenorth spamming the channel, oops
17:27:32  <andythenorth> they missed this "export PATH=$PY:$PY26:$PY24:$PY27:$PY32:$PY33:$PY34:$PY35:$PY36:$PYPY3:$PATH"
17:28:22  <frosch123> i feel dirty now
17:28:46  <andythenorth> it's all basically fine
17:29:01  <andythenorth> which is a good rule for life anyway
17:33:43  <andythenorth> hg st
17:33:44  <andythenorth> oops
17:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: even more dirty than trying to make sense of a windows installation that a completely computer-illiterate person used for 2 years?
17:34:56  <andythenorth> just reinstall every year or so
17:35:00  <andythenorth> :x
17:35:03  <glx> first step: remove all browser toolbars
17:35:09  <andythenorth> from python? :o
17:35:16  <andythenorth> things are worse than I though
17:35:18  <andythenorth> t
17:35:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that involves personal contact, so it depends on the person
17:36:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's a close relative, that you don't have any feud with
17:36:59  <frosch123> i probably do not even know them
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17:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i was speaking hypothetically
17:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i hope you do know some of your relatives :p
17:38:26  <andythenorth> your close relatives aren't allowed to use Windows?
17:46:07  <TrueBrain> right, nightly releases .... I have to change a Jenkins plugin for that ...NOT looking forward to that :(
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17:47:53  <TrueBrain> *pokes andythenorth about #6753* :D
17:50:23  <frosch123> <- any opinions on that? should we enforce the traditional coding style, or switch to something more modern?
17:51:04  <frosch123> (# in first column being the CERT recommendation to work around bugs of 30 year old compilers)
17:51:24  <frosch123> (# indented being easier to explain)
17:51:45  <TrueBrain> no opinion here; dont give a hoot :)
17:51:51  <nielsm> indentation after # is what I'm most used to seeing
17:54:24  <glx> means openttd source code itself will be rejected
17:55:02  <frosch123> glx: we have both
17:55:31  <frosch123> tb's beos pr was rejected because it indented after # :)
17:56:44  <TrueBrain> and you dont write pre-commit-hooks for what is in source; but what is added to it :P
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17:58:23  <andythenorth> hmm
17:58:48  <andythenorth> all the trains for 1950-2050 should be visible in the buy menu at once
17:58:49  <andythenorth> they're not
17:59:00  <andythenorth> the 2 I just added don't fit, I should delete them
17:59:28  <andythenorth> 'designing for specific screen sizes' :P
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18:08:54  <frosch123> ok, even google code style says "do not indent preprocessor" stuff
18:09:08  <frosch123> now i only need someone to press "approve" :p
18:09:45  <TrueBrain> did NOT read the patch :P
18:13:42  <TrueBrain> guess that means I have to do a riddle again too ...
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18:20:41  <frosch123> thanks :)
18:20:55  * Wolf01 > avengers
18:21:31  * andythenorth reads how to checkout PRs .... again
18:21:42  <frosch123> i made a git alias
18:21:59  <frosch123> fetchpr = !sh -c 'git fetch  pull//head:pr' -
18:23:24  <andythenorth> hmm
18:23:29  <LordAro> does that need sh?
18:23:33  <andythenorth> 6753 is tricky for me, but I'll test
18:23:35  <TrueBrain> updated commit-checker on CI; but we should also make a PR to update it .. couldnt be bothered to follow the right way :P
18:23:42  <frosch123> LordAro: everything with args needs sh afaik
18:23:46  <andythenorth> I turn off all the trackpad gesture shit on the mac
18:23:48  <LordAro> ah right
18:23:49  <andythenorth> except rotate :P
18:23:49  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the main question is IF that is expected :P
18:23:58  <andythenorth> I'd have to turn it on and test
18:24:02  <andythenorth> let me see
18:24:10  <andythenorth> I'd have to use some Apple apps too
18:24:12  <TrueBrain> none of us use OSX enough to know how other apps do that :P
18:24:14  <TrueBrain> :D
18:24:18  <TrueBrain> you are awesome, tnx :)
18:24:26  <andythenorth> I don't use any of that stuff either
18:24:32  <andythenorth> it just breaks
18:24:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we have a second pr, i couldn't be botherer to make separate updates :p
18:24:51  <TrueBrain> we will wait for that :P
18:25:08  <andythenorth> also my compile is really slow, can we fix that, thx :P
18:25:39  <andythenorth> it's more than 2 mins
18:26:32  <andythenorth> wow scroll map on scrollwheel would be really nice
18:27:17  <andythenorth> why did I turn it off?
18:27:26  <TrueBrain> because you are weird
18:27:51  <andythenorth> oic it was broken
18:27:54  <andythenorth> I made a video
18:35:26  <andythenorth> TB notification incoming :P
18:35:52  <TrueBrain> still not the answer to the question we asked :D
18:35:58  <TrueBrain> IS THIS WHAT OTHER OSX APPS DO :P
18:36:09  <TrueBrain> and tnx; that was pretty quick tbh :)
18:36:23  <andythenorth> just reword this in your head
18:36:24  <andythenorth> "pinch-to-zoom confirmed now works per macOS conventions"
18:36:32  <andythenorth> until it answers your question :P
18:36:44  <TrueBrain> totally read over the last part of that sentence
18:36:46  <TrueBrain> haha :D
18:36:47  <andythenorth> I hate 'macOS' name it's ugly as fuck
18:36:47  <TrueBrain> *feels bad*
18:36:57  <TrueBrain> Mac OS X
18:36:59  <TrueBrain> much worse
18:37:03  <andythenorth> it even violates there brand guidelines
18:37:08  <andythenorth> it's "Mac" with capital M
18:37:20  <andythenorth> their *
18:38:07  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: child A tested the CF binaries at the weekend btw
18:38:20  <TrueBrain> tell me you didnt do A/B testing :P
18:39:24  <andythenorth> nope
18:39:41  <andythenorth> interesting concept though
18:39:51  <TrueBrain> but what was his/her ruling?
18:39:54  <andythenorth> I have crash logs, but they're on a mac somewhere else
18:40:01  <andythenorth> I'll dig them out
18:40:09  <andythenorth> GS crashed
18:40:16  <andythenorth> but soft
18:40:19  <andythenorth> and multiple hard crashes
18:40:25  <TrueBrain> bah
18:40:28  <TrueBrain> sounds terrible
18:40:31  <andythenorth> but always the same 'const char tried to fill' shit
18:40:34  <andythenorth> which is ICU no?
18:40:36  <TrueBrain> was it more stable, ignoring the crashes?
18:40:48  <andythenorth> yes, ignoring the crashes it was stable :P
18:40:59  <andythenorth> oh and AIs OOMing
18:41:06  <andythenorth> the cursor artefacts are gone
18:41:15  <TrueBrain> that is good news at least
18:41:19  <TrueBrain> AIs OOMing is just silly
18:41:57  <andythenorth> I have a cursor bug in on macOS 10.12 which wasn't in the binaries child A was playing on 10.13
18:42:04  <andythenorth> but is for the new CF binaries
18:42:14  <andythenorth> cursor locks to left-side of screen
18:42:21  <andythenorth> making game unplayable
18:42:29  <TrueBrain> sounds terrible
18:42:31  <andythenorth> I keep trying to video it
18:42:37  <andythenorth> but as soon as I click, it resolves
18:42:48  <TrueBrain> sounds like you solved it :P
18:42:53  <TrueBrain> you enable an auto-clicker!
18:42:58  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we should just drop the game cursor and use the OS
18:43:03  <andythenorth> there's a FS request about it
18:43:19  <TrueBrain> FS?
18:43:25  <andythenorth> well it was in Flyspray
18:43:27  <TrueBrain> :P
18:43:32  <andythenorth> and now is probably in GH somewhere
18:43:38  <andythenorth> but we probly closed it
18:43:38  <TrueBrain> and closed, most likely :P
18:44:12  <andythenorth> macOS hates custom cursors
18:44:19  <andythenorth> and seems some WIndows does too
18:44:45  <andythenorth> oh medal emojis
18:44:47  <andythenorth> more of those
18:45:25  <TrueBrain> Subject: LAST & FINAL WARNING NOTICE!!!
18:45:32  <TrueBrain> so many things wrong
18:45:42  <TrueBrain> last and final ... how is that different? This is your last, but not your final!
18:45:45  <TrueBrain> and how many !!!!!!!
18:46:08  <TrueBrain> This settlement is about unpaid bequest and last warning notice
18:46:10  <TrueBrain> to you regarding the death of my Late client Edward and his
18:46:11  <TrueBrain> family while on holiday at New Orleans Louisiana USA in the
18:46:13  <TrueBrain> August 2005 Atlantic hurricane Katrina disaster.
18:46:14  <TrueBrain> what the hell is written here ...
18:46:17  <TrueBrain> bequest?
18:47:50  <andythenorth> you're rich TB
18:47:55  <andythenorth> buy AWS time with it
18:48:01  <TrueBrain> I should tell him that
18:48:07  <TrueBrain> reply: pay my AWS with that money!
18:48:39  <andythenorth> tell him: file a PR
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18:55:20  <andythenorth> such Horse
18:56:24  <andythenorth> I think that's enough of those
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19:26:38  <V453000> cat found?
19:27:06  <peter1138> Well, we should use OS cursor where it's possible to update the image for it?
19:27:13  * V453000 finally finished his awesome drag&drop tool for spritesheets and 8bpp converting :)
19:27:18  <peter1138> Even webpages can do that these days :S
19:29:06  <nielsm> andythenorth you don't have any "wardrobe"(?) style shunters?
19:29:11  * nielsm finds those cute
19:29:40  <nielsm> like this:
19:30:08  <andythenorth> oh those
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19:30:14  <andythenorth> I thought you meant :)
19:30:37  <peter1138> Yay, got my compile warnings being tracked properly now. Had to write a script to munge the log file as it didn't have full paths, so Jenkins couldn't show the source files.
19:31:20  *** ToBeFree has quit IRC
19:31:54  * andythenorth should read src to see if we use
19:32:32  <andythenorth> the system cursor appears and disappears frequently on OS X build
19:32:45  <andythenorth> nielsm: the challenge of little engines like that is....why? :)
19:32:59  <andythenorth> even if I give them OP stats, they have no gameplay role
19:33:07  <nielsm> yeah :(
19:33:47  <peter1138> Do it anyway.
19:33:50  <peter1138> With real stats.
19:33:54  <andythenorth> HEQS includes this
19:34:00  <andythenorth> with real-ish stats
19:34:07  <peter1138> Then when someone(TM) implements shunting, you'll be there for it.
19:34:11  <andythenorth> yay
19:34:17  <andythenorth> it's easy to do anyway
19:34:27  <peter1138> Yeah, exactly.
19:34:35  <nielsm> a tiny short railway extending a dock's range to a slightly inland industry
19:34:45  <nielsm> and wanting as short as possible trains
19:34:54  <andythenorth> I should add rope-haulage :P
19:35:20  <nielsm> have anyone made horse-drawn trains?
19:35:33  <andythenorth> not afaik
19:35:36  <andythenorth> horse trams though
19:35:41  <supermop_work> i find horses are not that good at drawing trains
19:35:53  <nielsm> they can't hold the pencil?
19:35:55  <supermop_work> they can't hold the pen in their hooves
19:36:07  <andythenorth> supermop_work: you should be kbanned :P
19:37:53  <peter1138> Funicular?
19:38:15  <supermop_work> gondolas
19:38:49  <andythenorth> conveyors
19:38:56  <andythenorth> mornington crescent also
19:39:07  <peter1138> soylent green
19:40:42  <andythenorth> is that a livery colour?
19:41:28  <peter1138> I should finish some patches :p
19:43:10  <Pikka> andythenorth, where are the superchinooks? :D
19:43:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: considering them :P
19:44:20  <andythenorth> I like this one
19:48:56  <Pikka> yikes
19:49:35  <V453000> OH COME ON IT'S JUST A TRAIN
19:49:37  <V453000> :>
19:49:56  <andythenorth> LIES V453000
19:59:31  <andythenorth> can't let my kids see this Wolf01
19:59:49  <andythenorth> we still have an issue because he didn't get the Arctic ship last time round
19:59:57  <andythenorth> 'collection is not complete' :x
20:01:41  <frosch123> how many hours do they have to test iron horse until they get something like that?
20:06:06  <andythenorth> lots
20:06:16  <andythenorth> shall I train them to respond to feature requests also?
20:06:19  *** Gja has joined #openttd
20:06:34  <frosch123> respond how? closing?
20:06:42  <andythenorth> politely
20:06:49  <frosch123> sounds reasonable
20:06:52  <andythenorth> or verifying they're valid also
20:08:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, why is it still "LEGO CITY"
20:09:15  <peter1138> All those arctic cities...
20:09:50  <andythenorth> also volcanoes
20:13:24  <peter1138> Some Jungle theme...
20:13:29  <peter1138> Jungle cities.
20:13:47  <andythenorth> so much wrong
20:13:50  <andythenorth> but eh toys
20:14:10  <nielsm> it feels silly waiting for all the linux and osx builds for a patch that only affects win32 :(
20:14:50  <andythenorth> anyone want to write a web-based HP-per-ton calculator for ottd train physics? :P
20:14:54  <andythenorth> or I just test in game
20:15:23  <frosch123> you would just put the formula into python
20:15:28  <frosch123> so no need for web stuff
20:16:45  <andythenorth> fair
20:17:26  <andythenorth> so I could just set the speed a 250t train should go?
20:17:36  <andythenorth> and then the HP is calculated automatically for the newgrf
20:18:32  <frosch123> i guess you could set uphill speed, and time to accelerator to max speed on flat track
20:19:06  <andythenorth> might be over-engineering it :)
20:19:36  <andythenorth> I could just OP all trains
20:19:45  <andythenorth> then there's no need to worry
20:19:51  <andythenorth> "HP: more than enough"
20:22:38  <glx> <nielsm> it feels silly waiting for all the linux and osx builds for a patch that only affects win32  <-- and windows builds are not even tested ;)
20:23:52  *** beno is now known as Thedarkb
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20:27:49  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Try please?
20:28:15  <andythenorth> michi_cc: what fix am I testing? o_O
20:28:39  <michi_cc> Mouse cursor getting stuck.
20:28:59  <michi_cc> Silly coding error.
20:29:02  <andythenorth> ok cool
20:29:15  <andythenorth> it's hard to trigger, but I am running a game right now anyway
20:29:21  <andythenorth> testing grf
20:30:08  <andythenorth> I should raise a bug report
20:30:12  <andythenorth> so you can do a PR against it :P
20:30:25  <michi_cc> Right click scrolling, mouse out of the window to the left, mouse back in was very triggery for me.
20:31:05  *** rocky1138 has joined #openttd
20:31:12  <andythenorth> k
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20:36:21  <andythenorth> michi_cc: can't trigger it so far, but really brief test
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20:41:45  <michi_cc> LordAro: Compiler name detection is still not complete, real OSX gcc --version gives
20:42:05  <michi_cc> LordAro: Which makes $compiler become 'Apple'
20:42:17  <LordAro> of course it does
20:42:19  <LordAro> bleh.
20:43:04  <LordAro> wonder if it'd just be easier to see what defines are present
20:44:38  <michi_cc> Is there a pure sh grep equivalent? Then you could check if the first output line contains clang *somewhere*.
20:45:28  <LordAro> not sh
20:45:31  <LordAro> bash can do regex
20:48:09  <LordAro> it's also a bit moot if TrueBrain is redoing the build system with cmake
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20:51:13  <michi_cc> For completeness, this is an older (real) apple gcc:
20:53:46  <nielsm> hmm yeah integrating dosbox's opl2 emulation in ottd and decoding the dos version fm music through it is probably fine
20:54:18  <nielsm> I'm comparing dosbox playing the music to old recordings from an actual hardware fm synth and they sound pretty much identical
20:54:27  <nielsm> good job, dosbox people (and ken silverman)
20:56:05  <nielsm> ahh yes the classic AI <3
20:56:23  <LordAro> :D
20:57:06  <glx> I guess it's a line between those airports
20:57:24  <nielsm> it is
20:59:04  <nielsm> and it's put "full load" orders on both stops
20:59:15  <nielsm> so it takes forever to load on the left of them
20:59:28  <LordAro> of course
21:01:17  *** supermop_work has quit IRC
21:06:06  <nielsm> this is also the version of the game where you servicing an industry is an almost-certain death sentence for the industry
21:06:32  <nielsm> if you play with "disasters" on, as the Medium and Hard difficulties have
21:09:26  <andythenorth> :)
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21:14:26  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: why on earth does OSX not have __BYTE_ORDER ... its POSIX since 2001? Ugh
21:14:37  <LordAro> much OSX
21:15:03  <TrueBrain> (and why did it work on the CI .. :P)
21:15:20  <glx> cross-compiler
21:15:28  <TrueBrain> with the SDK of OSX
21:15:42  <TrueBrain> it cannot use the headers of the host system
21:15:51  <TrueBrain> bit surprised, but also a potential issue
21:15:56  <michi_cc> It might come from a compiler header and not a SDK header.
21:16:11  <TrueBrain> owh well .. chances of hitting a BE system are ..... well .. low
21:16:34  <glx> could be a compiler define too
21:16:43  <michi_cc> Don't expect an Apple clang to come with real clang headers :)
21:17:02  <TrueBrain> because why would they ...
21:17:18  <glx> it even doesnt come with the original compiler name
21:17:24  <TrueBrain> also just a prefix with DARWIN .. so silly ...
21:17:35  <TrueBrain> but I am happy you fixed it michi_cc :)
21:18:18  <michi_cc> Bit hard to find any other compiler errors if you get about 8 lines of warnings for every single source file :)
21:18:39  <TrueBrain> I was hoping the CI represented the real thing a bit more, but meh
21:18:44  <TrueBrain> also didnt check for warnings tbh
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21:18:50  <glx> indeed __BYTE_ORDER seems to be a compiler macro, so not related to SDK
21:19:20  <glx> makes sense for it to be absent from apple "custom" compiler ;)
21:20:00  <TrueBrain> the clang is compiled against something in the SDK
21:20:06  <TrueBrain> without an SDK I cannot make the clang work for OSX
21:20:12  <TrueBrain> so I was hoping for a bit more realistic
21:20:17  <TrueBrain> guess I was hoping wrong
21:20:21  <TrueBrain> but what more issues does it present ..
21:20:23  <TrueBrain> owh well
21:23:18  <FLHerne> Why is train weight "0..1279 tons" ?
21:23:28  <FLHerne> (in NML)
21:24:14  <TrueBrain> the question you should be asking .... why not?!
21:24:16  <FLHerne> In the NFO spec it's defined as "prop.24*256+prop.16", where both are one byte, so why doesn't it go up to 65k?
21:24:38  <FLHerne> (not that I particularly /want/ a train to weigh 65 kilotons
21:25:35  <michi_cc> LordAro: I was a tiny bit evil :p
21:25:36  <FLHerne> (and yes, that definitely says it's in tons and not silly multiplied units)
21:26:16  <LordAro> ono
21:26:48  * LordAro reassigns to TB
21:26:59  <TrueBrain> unassigned
21:27:39  <TrueBrain> s/ed/s/
21:29:35  <FLHerne> Hm, and in the NML source it's just `two_byte_property(0x16, 0x24, {'unit_type': 'weight'}, {'unit_type': 'weight'})`
21:29:47  <FLHerne> So where does the 1279 come from?
21:30:45  <FLHerne> Prop24 would have to be limited to only two bits, which doesn't make much sense
21:30:45  <TrueBrain> LordAro: why did you need to know if it was clang or gcc again? Don't defines do?
21:31:02  <peter1138> So we have this option in settings for "scrollwheel scrolls map"
21:31:04  <peter1138> But...
21:31:12  <peter1138> It's only implementedd for OSX.
21:31:32  <LordAro> TrueBrain: different set of flags
21:31:45  <TrueBrain> ah .. thought they were compatible
21:31:48  <TrueBrain> okay, that is annoying
21:32:20  <LordAro> config.lib:1450
21:32:46  <LordAro> wait, not there
21:33:06  <LordAro> 1175
21:33:22  <TrueBrain> just surprised clang is not compatible with gcc parameters :P
21:34:01  <andythenorth> peter1138: is that a good or bad thing? o-O
21:34:18  <peter1138> andythenorth, it's code I didn't really know about, and can't test anyway.
21:34:39  <andythenorth> :|
21:36:25  <LordAro> TrueBrain: it's basically compatible, but different versions with different warning flags and so on
21:36:34  <TrueBrain> makes sense
21:36:58  <TrueBrain> the reason I guess cmake just compiles a few applications to detect all kinds of shit
21:37:07  <TrueBrain> (they dont run it; they inspect the resulting binary)
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21:42:08  <peter1138> Damn, accidentally did a rebuild :(
21:42:30  <TrueBrain> guess the CI queues on a monday are also in the order of hours :P
21:42:48  <TrueBrain> main issue to fix that, is that the GitHub plugin Jenkins has, forces a Jenkinsfil in the repo
21:42:53  <TrueBrain> which is a very insecure way ...
21:44:14  <LordAro> hmm?
21:45:13  <TrueBrain> where did your parser fail?
21:47:01  <FLHerne> Hm
21:47:15  <FLHerne> Is it me, or does the NML example_train grf not build?
21:47:27  <LordAro> TrueBrain: why are the CI queues busy?
21:47:36  <FLHerne> It uses shorten_vehicle, which according to the changelog hasn't existed since 0.3
21:47:38  <TrueBrain> because people keep making PRs? :P
21:47:40  <LordAro> or, why is them being busy relevant to us?
21:47:56  <TrueBrain> because our PRs take for ever to validate?
21:48:12  <TrueBrain> well, maybe not relevant to you, as you don't have a PR :D
21:48:47  <LordAro> oh, they take that long?
21:48:50  <LordAro> i hadn't realised
21:49:01  <LordAro> that seems excessive, even for running 3 separate builds
21:49:09  <TrueBrain> huh?
21:49:42  <LordAro> 6772 is on 50minutes
21:49:53  <TrueBrain> yeah, had to wait 30 minutes for a slot
21:49:59  <TrueBrain> build takes ~20 minutes
21:50:09  <LordAro> ah ok, that's less bad
21:50:21  <TrueBrain> just too many people push stuff :D
21:50:22  <LordAro> needs more builders :p
21:50:37  <TrueBrain> which is not possible without altering the GitHub plugin of sorts
21:50:39  <TrueBrain> not sure how yet
21:50:53  <TrueBrain> or maybe I should just do the VCS commands myself .. hmm
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21:51:09  <LordAro> why is it not possible?
21:51:31  <TrueBrain> it needs to load the Jenkinsfile from the VCS (for what-ever stupid reason); I cannot force one
21:51:38  <TrueBrain> so I want to run that in a Docker for obvious reasons :D
21:51:56  <TrueBrain> and then you get in a bit of a silly shit, that multiple jobs can starve the CPU
21:52:16  <TrueBrain> I rather have that I can force a Jenkinsfile, and not have the initial job run in a Docker
21:52:22  <TrueBrain> than the normal Jenkins max executor can do its thing
21:52:24  <nielsm> hmm random useless measurement: a full release build for win32 on my desktop takes about 3 minutes
21:52:25  <TrueBrain> solving the whole mess
21:52:29  <LordAro> why would you need to force a jenkins file?
21:52:42  <TrueBrain> would you trust a random Jenkinsfile from a random PR?
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21:52:54  <LordAro> well no, but that's why docker, right?
21:52:58  <peter1138> Yeah, that's a bit of a design flaw :S
21:53:13  <TrueBrain> that is why I have to load the initial Jenkinsfile in a docker
21:53:14  <LordAro> could have some sort of "needs validation if jenkinsfile modified" thing
21:53:26  <TrueBrain> that would be possible .. but then I need a feedback system
21:53:32  <TrueBrain> so that means a bot on GitHub
21:53:37  <TrueBrain> which is going to happen sooner o rlater anyway ..
21:53:43  <peter1138> Uh oh
21:53:47  <TrueBrain> but same issue, different solution .. still shitty :P
21:53:48  <LordAro> hehe
21:54:06  <TrueBrain> yeah, I want to be able to do something like: @DorpsGek: create release
21:54:16  <TrueBrain> and he gives 1 hour later URLs to download release binaries
21:54:20  <TrueBrain> as some PRs I would really like to test
21:55:13  <TrueBrain> also I noticed that it would be nice if you can say: @DorpsGek: autoclose 1 month
21:55:22  <TrueBrain> and that after a month of no activity, he closes the issue :P
21:55:27  <TrueBrain> as fuck, I am not going to be able to track that :D
21:56:14  <TrueBrain> and DorpsGek needs replacement too .... so yeah ..
21:56:17  <TrueBrain> either way, first the CI
21:57:20  <TrueBrain> just shitty those plugins force you in 1 way
21:57:25  <TrueBrain> when ever was 1 way the correct way for any CI
21:57:35  <TrueBrain> their solution is: only trust contributors
21:57:44  <TrueBrain> like .... that is shitty :P
21:59:47  <glx> you are lucky nielsm
22:00:08  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:01:18  <TrueBrain> off to bed! Night!
22:06:22  *** markyisri has joined #openttd
22:06:35  <markyisri> hello
22:07:11  <nielsm> glx: build speed? I don't consider my machine impressive at all, though...
22:07:52  <glx> linking is slow
22:08:29  <nielsm> well yes, especially with LTCG
22:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> your close relatives aren't allowed to use Windows? <-- that wouldn't exempt you from supporting those computers either
22:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, person was really happy about "boah this computer is fast now"
22:09:30  <markyisri> I recently started playing OpenTTD (yesterday). It has taken me a while but I seem to have finally gotten off the ground in regards to profit vs debt. I was trying to make a dead-end station with two tracks coming off of it but I can't get the signalling right.
22:09:39  <glx> of course after you removed all the useless stuff auto installed by crappy apps downloaded from internet
22:10:17  <nielsm> markyisri, can you share a screenshot?
22:11:18  <nielsm> you can find a lot of guides on signalling out there, but for a wholly new player I'd recommend just learning to use path-based signals from the beginning, they make things simpler in the long run
22:11:30  <markyisri> Not right now as I am not on the computer with OpenTTD. It's a single track station with one dead end and the other with a short straight rail followed by a split into two different lines that are unconnected in any way.
22:11:36  <markyisri> I tried path based signals
22:11:38  <nielsm> (PBS also matches real-world signalling better, in most cases)
22:11:58  <glx> first rule for PBS, place signals only where it's safe to wait
22:12:12  <markyisri> I tried protecting each branch where they join the mainline.
22:12:24  <nielsm> oh, the two platforms on your station are not "equal"?
22:12:46  <nielsm> (could a train ever pick the wrong platform to not be able to continue?)
22:13:01  <glx> and more important, a junction should never be blocable by a signal
22:13:37  <glx> else a train will fataly stops in the middle of the junction
22:13:50  <nielsm> yes: 1) place signals before the entry to danger points  2) do not place signals so a train waiting at it would block crossing trains
22:14:36  <nielsm> (and as a corollary, do not place signals at exits from danger points)
22:14:56  <markyisri> I can send a mockup picture that I made. How do I attach pictures?
22:15:04  <glx> usually for platforms you place one way signals with lights facing the platform
22:15:32  <glx> trains can pass signals from the wrong direction
22:15:32  <nielsm> irc chat doesn't really have picture sharing built-in, you can upload it to or similar and share the link
22:16:08  <markyisri>
22:16:12  <markyisri> Please excuse the quality
22:16:16  <markyisri> I hand-drew it for the most part
22:16:19  <markyisri> with a mouse
22:16:45  <nielsm> looks right
22:17:22  <FLHerne> Which way are the signals facing?
22:17:29  <markyisri> The ^ symbol shows which way
22:18:11  <glx> so both tracks are 2-way ?
22:18:43  <glx> usually you want two 1-way tracks, one for each direction
22:18:46  <markyisri> Yes. A train arrives coming down the picture and enters the station. Shortly after, the second train arrived coming down the picture and obstructed the junction, preventing the first train from leaving the same way it came.
22:18:53  <markyisri> Ah.
22:19:05  <markyisri> So I cannot do a dead-end run back and forth with the train turning around each time?
22:19:20  <markyisri> I ask because it is cheaper than constructing more rails. :)
22:19:21  <FLHerne> You can
22:19:36  <glx> you can, just put signal on the arriving track
22:19:49  <markyisri> where would I place the signal on my picture?
22:19:53  <FLHerne> Where did the second train stop? If the signals face in the direction shown, it shouldn't be possible for the second train to get a path approaching the station at all
22:20:17  <markyisri> I think I may have added another path signal immediately following the junction.
22:20:20  <FLHerne> (I assume that ^ means 'for trains heading 'north' ')
22:20:20  <markyisri> But I can't remember.
22:20:25  <markyisri> no
22:20:32  <markyisri> It shows the way that the signal light is shining
22:20:37  <nielsm>
22:20:47  <nielsm> I think that's what you want
22:21:00  <FLHerne> A screenshot would be clearer
22:21:12  <FLHerne> Yes, that should work if you have a single train on each branch
22:21:49  <markyisri> nielsm: there is no need for a signal facing the other direction for the train in the platform?
22:21:56  <FLHerne> If you have more than one train using the same branch, you'll need a passing loop to avoid the problem with trains being blocked from leaving
22:22:11  <markyisri> FLHerne: I see what would happen.
22:22:20  <nielsm> not if it's end of line, no
22:22:28  <nielsm> but otherwise yes this is also fine:
22:22:36  <glx> if you place a signal on the platform you'll get a train waiting in the junction
22:22:52  <markyisri> glx: Which is exactly what I don't want
22:22:59  <markyisri> I want it to wait before obstructing the junction
22:23:16  <glx> but as nielsm placed it it's ok
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22:24:10  <markyisri> sorry
22:24:16  <markyisri> lost internet
22:24:28  <FLHerne> Something like this will work with multiple trains per branch:
22:25:04  <markyisri> That looks like it will work when I expand service in the future (after getting out of debt)
22:25:20  <markyisri> Speaking of which, any suggestions on how to pay off the loan faster?
22:25:20  <FLHerne> (it's important that there are at least as many 'safe' places to wait (including platforms at the other end) as trains using the line
22:25:27  <FLHerne> )
22:25:31  <glx> be prepared to always modify your tracks ;)
22:25:33  <nielsm> remember, sometimes it's better to take on more debt to expand service
22:25:40  <nielsm> :)
22:25:47  <markyisri> I currently owe 0,000 US
22:25:51  <nielsm> because of network effect
22:26:09  <glx> for easy money transport coal :)
22:26:31  <FLHerne> markyisri: Note: nielsm's picture with the circle /will/ stick if each branch has more than one train
22:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <glx> of course after you removed all the useless stuff auto installed by crappy apps downloaded from internet <-- luckily, person is very conservative about "i'm too scared to install anything"
22:27:13  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
22:27:13  <glx> oh so not an IE with 5 search bars ?
22:27:15  <markyisri> I transport large amounts of coal already. In fact one of those branches runs a 5-6 car coal train back and forth to a power station and a coal mine
22:27:27  <markyisri> I'm transporting pretty much all the mine has to offer
22:27:39  <markyisri> I'm also running a 64x64 map because larger maps seemed to be unmanageable
22:27:50  <FLHerne> markyisri: Longer distances tend to be more profitable
22:28:06  <markyisri> FLHerne: So you recommend that I run a larger map?
22:28:06  <nielsm> 64x64 you very quickly fill out
22:28:15  <glx> the best thing to do is to have an empty train entering the loading station as soon as the full train leaves
22:28:24  <FLHerne> Or from one side to the other of your 64-tile one ;-)
22:28:45  <glx> but 64x64 is better with trucks ;)
22:28:51  <FLHerne> Cargo payment is based on the distance travelled, and to some extent on the average speed
22:29:17  <markyisri> In OpenTTD it is better to be less efficient with distance?
22:29:21  <markyisri> In terms of cost
22:29:22  <nielsm> recently I tried a no-industries 64x64 game with the goal of filling the entire map with city :P
22:29:36  <nielsm> (that's year 2011 progress)
22:29:49  <FLHerne> Average speed is higher for long distances, because you spend less time sitting around in stations and accelerating, and resource utilisation per unit-cargo-distance is also better
22:29:55  <nielsm> (and yes eventually did fund a few industries)
22:30:01  <markyisri> FLHerne: I understand
22:30:21  <markyisri> nielsm: If I run a no-industries map it's based solely on transporting passengers/mail. Correct?
22:30:37  <nielsm> yes
22:30:56  <nielsm> it's harder to get off the ground, because cities start small
22:31:14  <nielsm> but when cities start growing everything balloons
22:31:22  <markyisri> nielsm: Which of these types is easier for a beginner like me?
22:31:38  <FLHerne> Industries; passengers are a nuisance
22:31:39  <markyisri> A more general question would be what size/type of game would you recommend for a beginner?
22:31:52  <glx> passengers are not the easy way at start
22:31:54  <nielsm> a flat 256x256 game with lots of industries
22:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're playing larger than 64x64, passengers is easier, because you tend to find two larger cities quite close to each other
22:32:06  <glx> then you get way too much passengers
22:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> which can easily sustain full passenger trains both ways
22:32:19  <markyisri> nielsm: I should give that a try then
22:32:40  <markyisri> Unfortunately I have to leave this chat
22:32:43  <FLHerne> The problem with passengers is the bidirectionality and fuzzy supply area, it's hard to move them in a controlled way
22:32:45  <markyisri> But thank you for the advice
22:32:47  <nielsm> also play with breakdowns turned off
22:32:52  <nielsm> if you aren't already
22:33:00  <FLHerne> (without cargodist, which creates its own confusions)
22:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and with cargodist on :)
22:33:01  <markyisri> nielsm: I have not turned them off. I will tonight.
22:33:20  <glx> oh and build a bus line with 4 stations in cities you want to grow
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22:33:35  <FLHerne> Of course, that's also what makes them fun once you've figured it out :P
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22:34:27  <markyisri> glx: thank you
22:34:29  <markyisri> for that tip
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22:34:37  <nielsm> heh
22:34:41  <nielsm> pop in and out
22:34:58  <glx> yeah webchat is not ideal :)
22:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really understand why he "had to leave"?
22:35:31  <ST2> he'll come back when next doubt appears xD
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22:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> some headlines make you scratch your head... "the town of Vittel is running out of water, because Nestle sells too much"
22:36:13  <glx> lol
22:37:19  <glx> people of Vittel don't buy bottles
22:39:42  <nielsm> better get some sleep here too, gn
22:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but either Nestle needs to stop producing water bottles, or they need to build pipelines from elsewhere that brings the non-nestle water
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23:41:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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