Log for #openttd on 2nd May 2018:
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06:24:04  <andythenorth> moin
06:29:04  <peter1138> hi
06:29:11  <andythenorth> supermop you there? o_O
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10:44:46  <Pokka> nobody here but us chickens
10:46:19  <peter1138> POKK
10:46:23  <peter1138> wot larks
10:53:24  <Pokka> oh dear
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11:35:57  <peter1138> Hmm, suppose I should try the newest UKRS3
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11:47:41  <V453000> is pokk how you say chicken sounds in english_
11:47:43  <V453000> ?
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11:51:09  <peter1138> Hmm, kinda?
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12:24:12  <Pikka> if you do, peter1138, what do you think of the double-size buy menu sprites? yes/no/optional?
12:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> what about people who use double size gui?
12:26:47  <Pikka> I don't know. does it also double the vehicle sprites?
12:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i think so
12:27:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure
12:30:12  <peter1138> Yeah, no.
12:30:28  <peter1138> 2x gui also uses 2x buy menu sprites.
12:30:54  <peter1138> So I'd say stick with the normal sprites.
12:31:09  <peter1138> If I want it doubled I'll use 2x gui :)
12:31:40  <peter1138> And... same for 4x :p
12:35:39  <peter1138> Hmm, I've done something wrong, it's not showing up :p
12:36:13  <peter1138> Ah, missing libxdg-basedir
12:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i should probably go shopping in the next 5 hours...
12:37:01  <peter1138>
12:37:14  <peter1138> may not be appropriate, unless you are buying for me.
12:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so... :p
12:37:39  <peter1138> There's lots of Lego on there, for instance.
12:39:08  <peter1138> Ah yeah, no Pikka, take those double-size sprites out please
12:39:23  <Pikka> already done :)
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12:39:52  <markyisri> Hi, this may be the wrong place to ask, but I tried to join the OpenTTD reddit server 1 and I don't understand how I am supposed to join a company. They are all protected by a password.
12:40:09  <Pikka> start a new company, markyisri
12:40:10  <peter1138> Pikka, it gets ridiculous with 2x GUI, which I normally use :)
12:40:18  <markyisri> can't
12:40:22  <markyisri> there are already 15 of them I think
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12:40:34  <peter1138> I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
12:40:37  <peter1138> Hah
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12:41:16  <peter1138> markyisri, I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
12:41:27  <markyisri> peter1138: OK I will try a different one
12:41:55  <Pikka> or ask someone if you can join their company, or wait... I think it clears out unoccupied companies after a few hours
12:42:14  <peter1138> Pikka, a reason to be careful about using buy-menu specific sprites, if you only have a 1x version of that then it will be pixel doubled at 2x, and the rest of the sprites which do have 2x views will be high res. Would look odd.
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12:42:39  <peter1138> I think the engine-tender gap is fine, myself.
12:43:19  <peter1138> I should get myself an 8K screen just so 4x GUI has a reason to exist.
12:43:50  <Pikka> I'd only done the double-sized for the locos, so yes, there was a mismatch. but yep, I'll revert everything to 1x. maybe I should get the biggui :P
12:44:08  <peter1138> Pikka, don't get biggui, it's old and doesn't work properly.
12:44:30  <peter1138> Just need to be "double size" in "interface size" on the options screen.
12:44:35  <peter1138> s/be/pick/
12:44:56  <Pikka> oic
12:45:58  <peter1138> so basically, do your buy menu sprites as 2x, but mark them as 2x properly.
12:46:06  <peter1138> however that is done.
12:46:15  <peter1138> Then the game will show it right.
12:46:32  <peter1138> I guess you don't actually need to draw a 1x version.
12:47:19  <Pikka> no, I don't. all the sprites are 2x, and the double-sized buymenu was done simply by coding them as normal instead of 2x.
12:47:29  <Pikka> so it was very easy to revert :)
12:47:31  <peter1138> *nod*
12:47:33  <peter1138> Cool.
12:48:14  <peter1138> Also, is it just me or does window resizing not work properly? At least with SDL.
12:49:32  <peter1138> Seems to add the height of the titlebar to the window on every mouse-pointer move.
12:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea when i last tried to resize a window
12:53:48  <peter1138> Really?
12:54:05  <peter1138> I mean the window for the whole game, not a window in game.
12:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i don't think i have resized the game window in like 10 years :p
12:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's always maximized
12:54:55  <__ln__> game years or real-life years
12:54:55  <peter1138> Odd.
12:55:14  <peter1138> I've not played OpenTTD fullscreen since... since playing at 800x600 on a CRT.
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12:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> not fullscreen, just maximised
12:56:15  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i just tried resizing on the title screen, it flickers a lot
12:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> as in goes to black and redraws
12:56:31  <peter1138> Yeah, that seems to happen.
12:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but nothing else seems to be odd
13:04:41  <peter1138> Yeah, seems like the call to SDL_SetVideoMode() is messing up.
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13:19:20  <peter1138> Didn't someone have an SDL 2.0 patch?
13:20:00  <peter1138> Let's switch to glfw :p
13:20:50  <peter1138> Requires everyone to use OpenGL though.
13:21:38  <peter1138> Also, our input event handling it shit.
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13:25:10  <LordAro> you should rewrite it
13:25:29  <peter1138> L*
13:25:30  <peter1138> :(
13:25:35  <peter1138> I'm tempted.
13:25:50  <peter1138> But I keep getting deeper and deeper rabbit holes.
13:26:16  <LordAro> hehe
13:26:20  <LordAro> i'm doing that right now
13:26:32  <peter1138> So the drivers all set some random global variable, and then call another function with no parameters.
13:26:41  <peter1138> That function then tests all these variables to find out what happened.
13:27:12  <peter1138> Why not 1) just pass it in parameters directly 2) use different functions for different events...
13:28:21  <peter1138> Also our onClick is handle on mouse button press.
13:28:59  <peter1138> In most UIs (except, say, menus), onClick would be handled on mouse button release.
13:29:41  <peter1138> Tab switching, is mouse down, but we don't have tabs.
13:29:51  <peter1138> Well, sort of do, they're just buttons though.
13:30:20  <peter1138> Ok, maybe it's just buttons that should be on button release :)
13:31:34  <LordAro> buttons have to depress on though?
13:31:51  <peter1138> yes
13:32:20  <peter1138> they normally activate on release though, so you can click, then move off the button and release, and nothing happens
13:33:05  <peter1138> Anyway that's minor
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14:17:32  <peter1138> Hmm, Jenkins playing up, it built the same PR commit twice :S
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14:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "doppelt hält besser"
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16:59:31  <Wolf01> o/
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17:31:23  <peter1138> Hmm, gonna be some wet trails out there tonight.
17:32:00  <Wolf01> Hmm?
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17:33:00  <peter1138> MTB ride in the woods tonight.
17:34:47  <Wolf01> Do you have the mudguards?
17:35:39  <peter1138> Ish.
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17:57:08  <frosch123> _dp_: <- there is still some change. why did lordaro cause so much confusion :p
17:59:41  <LordAro> :(
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18:01:06  <frosch123> poop lordaro, everyone bashes him :) where is yorick?
18:01:25  <frosch123> *poor
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18:09:44  <_dp_> frosch123, what do you mean? should I not add anything to that comment?
18:13:12  <andythenorth> hi
18:13:17  <_dp_> frosch123, I initially assumed that comment should be edited as part of release cycle, not patch, but then that discussion started and you kind of supported it, so now I'm totally confused xD
18:14:32  <frosch123> _dp_: currently you change 1.8.x into 1.8.0
18:14:40  <frosch123> just don't modify that line :)
18:15:13  <_dp_> frosch123, so, add "198" line but not change 197...?
18:15:35  <frosch123> yep
18:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: all (future) 1.8.x releases will still use the old savegame version
18:16:45  <frosch123> (i would not have cared bout the 198 line being added or not, but 197 should not be changed)
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18:17:39  <andythenorth> Pikka is it civil yet?
18:18:07  <_dp_> frosch123, ok, changed it back
18:18:18  <Pikka> moderately
18:18:33  <andythenorth> I've invented a new game mode for OpenTTD
18:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> battle royale?
18:19:42  <andythenorth> instead of playing as a company, play as minor deity
18:19:47  <andythenorth> and sort out what the AIs are doing
18:19:47  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, what do you mean by that? I looked at version 194-195 when I was changing the comment
18:19:47  <andythenorth>
18:20:12  <nielsm> lung cancer?
18:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i don't know what those lines say
18:20:51  <Pikka> oh dear andythenorth
18:20:52  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, 194   26881   1.5.x, 1.6.0; 195   27572   1.6.x
18:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what i meant was that minor releases cannot change the savegame version, if trunk bumped savegame version inbetween
18:21:34  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, apparently it was changed in 1.6.1
18:21:37  <Pikka> I'm supposed to be spriting but I keep tinkering with it, I'm improving the bus stop building, which is the oldest part of the code :)
18:21:59  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, it can be done if there was no trunk bump
18:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> then trunk and release can bump simultaneously
18:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (for varying degrees of "simultaneous")
18:23:20  * andythenorth wonders how to name the new game
18:23:33  <andythenorth> 'somewhat deity'
18:23:49  <Wolf01> "game new #4____"
18:24:11  <Wolf01> Or like my saves: "w", "w1", "wwwwww"
18:24:54  <Alberth> game20180502   :)
18:25:06  <andythenorth> I didn't mean the save :P
18:25:13  <andythenorth> this is a new game mode :P
18:25:23  <andythenorth> AIs make a mess, your goal is to tidy it up
18:25:26  <frosch123> "sheeple"
18:25:38  <andythenorth> you get ~money and ~unrestricted building
18:25:44  * _dp_ playing that game for 3 years already
18:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> herding cats
18:25:50  <Wolf01> ^
18:25:52  <_dp_> called "server administration"
18:25:55  <andythenorth> cat herding
18:26:02  <_dp_> sorting out the mess players taught by AI do
18:26:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, it is not new. when noai was added and the original ai was removed, multiple people complained that the gamemode "takeover ai companies and fix their mess" was removed
18:26:30  <andythenorth> ha
18:26:34  <andythenorth> yes I think I played that
18:26:43  <Alberth> baldys boss made an art of it :p
18:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me of the time when i played the TT demo and "learned" building sidings from the AI (but not "learning" about signals)
18:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or one of the screenshots in the TT manual which showed a multi track station, but also didn't include signals
18:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> which confused my brother a lot
18:28:36  <andythenorth> I think I remember that screenshot :P
18:28:57  <nielsm> I wonder if I have my original manual still
18:29:12  <nielsm> I remember it putting "windows" in quotes every time when talking about window management etc
18:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i lost my orginal box at some point
18:32:45  <TrueBrain> CI queue is long today :(
18:34:16  <andythenorth> so Horse, narrow gauge trains
18:34:17  <andythenorth> what?
18:34:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: only have the length of last weekend
18:35:11  <TrueBrain> now I have to remember where the strings of the downloads are stored .. like "Windows XP / Vista / 7"
18:35:15  <TrueBrain> really cannot remember ...
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18:35:44  <frosch123> grep?
18:35:51  <TrueBrain> on what ...
18:35:59  <TrueBrain> I believe it was some separate file telling the mapping
18:37:50  <TrueBrain> ah .. found the filename .. now where is it located ...
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18:38:35  <michi_cc> nielsm: I uploaded a music sample to GH to show what I mean.
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18:38:51  <nielsm> just saw
18:39:14  <nielsm> odd, I don't get any reverb effects with the MS synth
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18:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: separate narrowhorse set?
18:47:19  <andythenorth> nah, although it's a valid suggestion
18:47:48  <andythenorth> better in a roster
18:48:05  <andythenorth> the appeal of a separate set is just making it once ;P
18:48:48  <andythenorth> in UK / Ireland horse, I think it's one engine every 40 years
18:49:00  <andythenorth> and maybe pax railcar
18:49:40  <andythenorth> but a case could be made for small (4/8) and large (6/8) engines
18:53:11  <andythenorth> and also for 'fast' (pax, mail) and 'slow' (freight)
18:53:19  <andythenorth> just not sure it's worth all that :P
18:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really a lot of "fast" narrow gauge around
18:55:56  <andythenorth> only in QLD with Pikka
18:56:20  <andythenorth> it would be 5-10mph different at best
18:56:23  <andythenorth> so let's not
18:56:25  <Pikka> "fast"
18:56:45  <Pikka> that's the problem with a queensland set
18:56:52  <Pikka> 1900 to 2000, everything's 50mph
18:58:23  * andythenorth deletes QLD roster :P
19:02:19  <supermop_work> andythenorth: jr
19:04:26  <andythenorth> probly, one day
19:04:32  <andythenorth> and FIRS too
19:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could just make wagonspeedlimits different by 5-10mph, and leave the engine speed the higher of both
19:05:35  <andythenorth> yes
19:05:39  <andythenorth> that is very plausible
19:06:20  <andythenorth> in this roster, NG is something like "I want a bigger tram"
19:06:32  <andythenorth> rather than "I want a smaller train"
19:06:59  <andythenorth> point-point A->B routes, two or three trains, no big network
19:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> most new tram systems of the past few years have been standard gauge
19:07:47  <andythenorth> I think we can overlook that in the game design :)
19:08:09  <andythenorth> or it supports the argument somehow, dunno
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19:43:34  <nielsm> that's kinda odd
19:43:55  <nielsm> if you set an output port on the dmusic driver it forces the ms synth into a compatibility mode or something
19:44:13  <nielsm> and it becomes all dry sounding
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20:02:10  <andythenorth> do I cap out NG performance at year 19xx?  Or keep upgrading generations until 2020?
20:04:36  <V453000> 2100 are slugs obviously
20:04:41  <V453000> compatible with NG
20:04:45  <andythenorth> 100mph?
20:04:50  <andythenorth> standard slug speed?
20:05:07  <V453000> 180
20:05:12  <andythenorth> such fast
20:07:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: make them drive faster when there is at least one curve along the train
20:07:29  <andythenorth> to encourage bendy tracks?
20:07:35  <frosch123> yes
20:07:41  <frosch123> the only point of narrow gauge is bendy
20:07:47  <frosch123> so penalise straight track
20:08:08  <andythenorth> can I overflow curve speed penalty?
20:08:11  <frosch123> people can build zig-zag, but that will make the track longer
20:08:12  * andythenorth looks
20:09:03  <V453000> wait you can do that?
20:09:16  <V453000> trains faster at curves?
20:10:16  <andythenorth>
20:10:29  <andythenorth> can't set the value :P
20:10:51  <nielsm> michi_cc, from reading some more docs, as far as I can tell if you want to use the DirectMusic synth low-level you have to manage effects yourself as well, possibly even per channel too, which will probably get really hairy
20:11:17  <frosch123> hmm, looks like max speed is cached too much
20:11:23  <V453000> well tilt is tilt, but trains actually going faster when in curves than on straight track?
20:11:26  <frosch123> you cannot change it while running
20:11:29  <V453000> :D that's probably for the better frosch123 :P
20:11:47  <andythenorth> could do it on railtype change :P
20:11:56  <andythenorth> can I do a railtype with some angles missing :P
20:12:29  <V453000> :d
20:12:34  <frosch123> make cargo aging?
20:12:39  <V453000> spoilers: game doesn't actually have curves :P
20:12:47  <frosch123> people who travel my narrow gauge get bored on straight track?
20:13:17  <andythenorth> applying the tilt bonus might be valid :P
20:13:32  <andythenorth> just sticking to things the spec actually offers :P
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20:14:16  * V453000 is going to do some nasty shit regardless.
20:14:36  <frosch123> well, running cost is always an option
20:14:57  <andythenorth> mostly, I depend on "well it looks different"
20:15:30  <V453000> high running cost when on straight tracks? :D
20:15:37  <frosch123> exactly
20:15:46  <V453000> sounds mental, I love it
20:16:06  <V453000> yeah, that probably not. The one which stops at signals and increases price, likely yes
20:16:17  <V453000> in combination with almost 0 cargo decay rate
20:16:20  <frosch123> snakes have difficulty on straights
20:16:25  <V453000> so you can get better profits but your trains must not stop
20:16:27  <frosch123> they need to snake to move forward
20:16:30  <V453000> :D
20:16:46  <V453000> ok your logic wins, putting it on the list of wtf ideas
20:18:06  <V453000> btw
20:20:26  <V453000> need to finish 1 full engine with wagons for it and I'll code a prototype
20:21:46  <frosch123> i don't get the refittable part
20:22:25  <V453000> it's also universal in terms of cargoes but every cargo has 7 subrefits? :D
20:22:31  <V453000> 6
20:22:35  <V453000> actually 5
20:22:40  <V453000> what's the max amount of subrefits? :D
20:22:53  <frosch123> what do they do?
20:23:11  <frosch123> you cannot change subrefit via orders
20:23:21  <V453000> you can
20:23:35  <V453000> I had colour-changing trains from NUTS and those do it via subrefit
20:24:39  <frosch123> we removed that in 1.4
20:24:48  <V453000> what?
20:24:49  <frosch123> it did not work
20:25:06  <frosch123> gone since december 2013
20:26:44  <V453000> oh what the hell :(
20:26:51  <V453000> that was one of the most important parts :d
20:26:56  *** gelignite has quit IRC
20:26:59  <V453000> back to the drawing boards :D
20:27:21  <frosch123> also, i have no idea how you want to implement the booster parts :)
20:27:56  <V453000> I think we talked about it at some point and figured it should be possible with the store variable things
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20:29:51  <V453000> well damn the subrefit thing really looks broken :d
20:30:00  <andythenorth> for boosters V453000
20:30:01  <V453000> ok. :D I think I can substitute that one
20:30:14  <andythenorth> I recommend you code generate a *really* horrible stack of switches
20:30:15  <V453000> but I was kind of guessing the store temp thing would be able to do this
20:30:25  <V453000> yes that's kind of the plan andythenorth
20:30:27  <andythenorth> all combinations handled, in switch :P
20:30:37  <andythenorth> it's definitely wrong
20:30:44  <andythenorth> but probably achieveable
20:30:53  <andythenorth> unless you have more combinations that atoms in universe
20:31:02  <V453000> I think the biggest problem was that I want to check if for example power part is at position 5 and then add it to some value somewhere
20:31:57  <andythenorth> store temp, no?
20:32:02  <V453000> yeah that's what I thought
20:32:08  <andythenorth> train has maximum length?
20:32:13  <V453000> know that I don't really understand propely what the store temp does :P
20:32:13  <frosch123> it would work if the booster parts have to follow the engine immediately, and there is a limited amount of them
20:32:20  <frosch123> say, not more than 10
20:32:46  <frosch123> but you cannot make the engine scan the whole train and count booster parts
20:33:04  <frosch123> or is there only one booster part per type? do they stack?
20:33:26  <andythenorth> can't keep offsetting to a vehicle and checking ID?
20:33:47  <frosch123> no loops :)
20:33:54  <andythenorth> generated switch
20:33:58  <andythenorth> count length of consist
20:33:58  <V453000> oh
20:34:08  <frosch123> also kind of excessive for longer trains
20:34:12  <andythenorth> my proposal isn't _good_ or _nice_
20:34:29  <andythenorth> "wagon power" nonsense? o_O
20:34:32  <frosch123> but yeah, you can try to generate 1k switches to check 256 vehicles for 4 things each :p
20:34:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: yeah, I think we should watch V do that
20:34:51  <andythenorth> it's just a tree
20:35:12  <andythenorth> FIRS has some equal horrors in it for location checks, and for terrain aware tiles
20:35:42  <andythenorth> maybe not 'equal', by an order of magnitude :P
20:36:06  <V453000> so I can't have 1 engine with 10 wagons where they are kind of random part types, where first and last 3 are power so fist one adds 12800, second one 8533, third one 6400, and the ones at the end 2560, 2327 and 2133 to the total power of those + some base power of the engine?
20:36:25  <andythenorth> not for arbitrary consist lengths
20:36:28  <V453000> or would it "just be fucking slow to compute"? :D
20:36:54  <V453000> hm.
20:37:02  <frosch123> would need trying :p
20:37:05  <andythenorth> "probably fine" up to some limit
20:37:26  <andythenorth> like most things :P
20:37:27  <V453000> well I guess the powered wagons thing could be used for power and the wagon would just check for position in consist, right?
20:37:51  <V453000> T.E. coefficient & engine weight increase not though
20:37:56  <V453000> neither max speed
20:38:02  <V453000> capacity part only influences itself
20:38:06  <andythenorth> well
20:38:16  <frosch123> the cached things are less of an issue
20:38:18  * andythenorth thinks of ideas
20:38:28  <frosch123> well, just try it, and learn :p
20:38:30  <V453000> what are cached things? :)
20:38:32  <V453000> ok :D
20:38:41  <V453000> I guess I should start coding before doing proper graphics then
20:38:42  <andythenorth> if you enforced, e.g. TL5 or something
20:38:54  <andythenorth> your life would be order of magnitude simpler
20:39:02  <V453000> that sounds pretty tough to do andythenorth
20:39:03  <V453000> how?
20:39:14  <V453000> buy 5 unit articulated trains? how do you customize them?
20:39:16  <andythenorth> isn't there some "can't leave depot" thing?
20:39:23  <V453000> oh holy shit :D
20:39:29  * andythenorth looks
20:39:45  <V453000> one of the aims was to remove stupid errors like NUTS' wagon connecting errors
20:39:49  <andythenorth> CB31
20:39:52  <V453000> now trains wouldn't be able to leave depot :D
20:39:54  <V453000> next level
20:40:10  <andythenorth> enforcing TL isn't too bad
20:40:14  <V453000> btw how would a set TL actually make it easier?
20:40:23  <andythenorth> because you only have to walk the consist once
20:40:23  <V453000> I still need to check for the positions?
20:40:42  <andythenorth> yes, but you don't have to measure train length, and build a stack of switches *for every possible length*
20:40:52  <andythenorth> it's factorial
20:40:58  <V453000> o_O
20:40:59  <andythenorth> for arbitrary lengths
20:41:05  <V453000> oh.
20:41:06  <frosch123> it's only linear :p
20:41:15  <V453000> well bonus above 20 units was meant to be the same
20:41:16  <andythenorth> is it?
20:41:26  <andythenorth> @calc. 5!
20:41:27  <V453000> could be above 10 units
20:41:31  <V453000> would that help?
20:41:34  <andythenorth> @calc 5!
20:41:35  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
20:41:50  <V453000> @calc 5*4*3*2
20:41:50  <DorpsGek> V453000: 120
20:41:55  <frosch123> V453000: essetially you need separate switches for vehicles at each position
20:42:17  <V453000> hm
20:42:23  <frosch123> if you need 5 switches to decide the feffect of the 1st wagon, you need 5 for the 2nd, 5 for the 3rd, 5*max length in total
20:42:30  <V453000> right
20:42:42  <V453000> @calc 5*128
20:42:43  <DorpsGek> V453000: 640
20:42:45  <V453000> not bad
20:42:48  <V453000> :D
20:42:52  <andythenorth> it's achieveable
20:42:56  <andythenorth> and you can code generate them
20:42:58  <V453000> is slow?
20:43:02  <andythenorth> who knows?
20:43:05  <andythenorth> nobody tried such a thing
20:43:10  <V453000> well code generation isn't a problem really, I already expect to have to do that
20:43:14  <V453000> right
20:43:22  <V453000> well I guess there's only one way to find out
20:43:35  <andythenorth> but imho, fixing the train length simplifies your life
20:43:38  <andythenorth> at least for v1
20:43:40  <V453000> I suppose next step should be make placeholder graphics asap, try coding
20:43:51  <andythenorth> also, all games have fixed TL always anyway
20:43:52  <V453000> I really don't like that one bit andy
20:44:02  <V453000> well yeah but why 5 :D
20:44:14  <V453000> length could be a parameter but that's horrible
20:44:29  <andythenorth> parameter doesn't win you much, then you have to handle the parameter in the code generator
20:44:36  <andythenorth> so you might as well just have arbitrary
20:44:43  <andythenorth> all or nothing eh
20:44:53  <andythenorth> TL5 because I was told to once
20:44:56  <andythenorth> or something
20:45:07  <V453000> well doing more code isn't a problem
20:45:13  <V453000> doing something that wrecks the game might be :P
20:45:29  <V453000> let's add frosch123's snake train gfx to make sure :P
20:45:32  <andythenorth> nothing advances utnil it's pushed
20:46:01  <V453000> ok I'll make basic placeholder images and try coding asap
20:46:37  <V453000> expect hopeless questions :D
20:47:03  <andythenorth> go big or go home
20:47:03  <andythenorth> etc
20:47:13  <andythenorth> also I expect to see use of depot flip
20:47:19  <andythenorth> so each wagon has A or B option
20:47:24  <andythenorth> and you can combo them
20:47:43  <Pikka> o/
20:47:48  <andythenorth> lo Pikka
20:47:53  <V453000> yeah that's pretty nuts andy
20:47:59  <V453000> not too sure i want/need that
20:47:59  <andythenorth> also V453000 combo breakers, anti-easter egg
20:48:05  <andythenorth> some combos nerf your train
20:48:13  <andythenorth> Bad PART
20:48:20  <V453000> hi Pikka :)
20:48:22  <andythenorth> the whole idea is awesome
20:48:40  <andythenorth> you should make accompanying industry set :P
20:48:42  <V453000> I was thinking there would be a secret combination which turns the train into a slug
20:48:53  <andythenorth> special combo of flip
20:48:58  <andythenorth> like flip 1, 3, 4, 6
20:49:02  <V453000> but I'll most likely just have a separate slug vehicle because it's home railtype can be some railtype with high curve speed
20:49:08  * Pikka contemplates a single loco set
20:49:09  <andythenorth> or flip 2, 5, 7 for angry slug
20:49:10  <V453000> yes
20:49:15  <Pikka> where the single loco is a Class 08
20:49:18  <frosch123> V453000: oh, i forgot about vehicle var 60
20:49:21  <V453000> that was the idea & is possibility
20:49:27  <frosch123> different than i remembered
20:49:38  <frosch123> so, counting vehicles is fine, just position is hard
20:49:45  <V453000> what's 60?
20:50:01  <andythenorth> yeah counting is fine
20:50:02  <frosch123> count number of wagons of specific type in train
20:50:07  <andythenorth> and 61 is 'fine'
20:50:19  <andythenorth> oh no, not possible in cb36
20:50:20  <andythenorth> oops
20:50:21  <V453000> right
20:50:23  <andythenorth> bad news V453000
20:50:56  <andythenorth>
20:51:01  <frosch123> oh, right, so position-specific is actually completely impossible
20:51:08  <andythenorth> yes
20:51:14  <andythenorth> because circ deps
20:51:22  <V453000> well that sucks
20:51:23  <andythenorth> and there's no perm. storage
20:51:57  <frosch123> V453000: so, counting wagons works, but no positions :)
20:52:02  <V453000> hm
20:52:06  <V453000> I guess it's something
20:52:18  <V453000> but that makes long trains ultra overpowered
20:52:43  <frosch123> just divide the effect by total number of wagons
20:52:45  <V453000> unless the efficiency of the parts drops with total consist length? :D
20:52:46  <andythenorth> or cap it
20:52:47  <V453000> :Ddd
20:52:48  <V453000> :DDD
20:52:51  <andythenorth> max boost
20:52:52  <V453000> omg.
20:52:54  <andythenorth> Max Boost
20:53:00  <V453000> hm
20:53:04  <V453000> that's not stupid idea either
20:53:05  <frosch123> so you use percentages, not total number
20:53:45  <V453000> soooooooooooooooo open scripting specs for vehicle grfs? :P
20:54:20  <V453000> the max bonus sounds decent andy
20:54:38  <V453000> but that just means that you get X number of parts which increase performance, and rest just capacity parts
20:55:04  <andythenorth> depends how you do it
20:55:12  <frosch123> make running cost exponential with length :p
20:55:18  <andythenorth> so far we seem to be talking about modifying lead engine based on wagons
20:55:24  <andythenorth> but why not just give wagons power?
20:55:27  <andythenorth> directly?
20:55:33  <V453000> power would be fine there
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20:55:39  <andythenorth> and then mod that depending on position in consist
20:55:39  <V453000> but T.E and max speed?
20:55:50  <V453000> yes wagon power sounds ok
20:55:52  <andythenorth> put TE on wagon
20:56:03  <andythenorth> max speed, some kind of check of other IDs in consist
20:56:15  <andythenorth> so you find who is fastest wagon
20:56:38  <V453000> O_O oh, wagon speed limits
20:56:43  <V453000> T.E. on wagon how?
20:56:54  <andythenorth> don't use powered wagon shit
20:56:59  <andythenorth> implement wagon as engine
20:57:08  <andythenorth> then just give it excess TE
20:57:11  <V453000> holy shit
20:57:24  <V453000> that's actually
20:57:25  <andythenorth> you can ban 'wagons' being lead
20:57:55  <andythenorth> it won't affect TE of whole consist, but if you go excession on it, you'll get a result
20:58:06  <V453000> right
20:58:18  <andythenorth> TE isn't that relevant anyway
20:58:25  <V453000> it's very relevant
20:58:27  <andythenorth> I ran some tests this week with horse fast/strong engines
20:58:40  <andythenorth> HP makes much more difference than TE on typical slopes
20:58:51  <V453000> the train accelerates at low speed much better with high T.E.
20:58:59  <V453000> slopes are overall irrelevant
20:59:01  <andythenorth> yeah, for a few tiles
20:59:11  <V453000> that's important :)
20:59:11  <andythenorth> over a longer run, HP wins out every time
20:59:17  <andythenorth> just comparing head-to-head
20:59:28  <V453000> over a longer run yes, but generally I want engines which accelerate rather quickly anyway
20:59:34  <andythenorth> right
20:59:40  <andythenorth> well just boost it to excess on some wagons
20:59:42  <V453000> but yeah I could also skip fucking with T.E. and just keep T.E. at some number without T.E. part
20:59:55  <V453000> I'll think about that
21:00:03  <V453000> implementing everything as engines is hacky esp as you can't auto-join them in depot
21:00:08  <andythenorth> a high-TE, low HP engine might still kick the consist off at low speed
21:00:09  <V453000> and drag them manually
21:00:10  <V453000> but eh
21:00:20  <andythenorth> this is a bit close to some IRL situations :P
21:00:30  <andythenorth> where engines switch modes as speed increases
21:00:51  <andythenorth> controlling electric motors in trains is really sophisticated to handle different speeds + power demands
21:00:57  <V453000> OMG IZ REALISTIC
21:01:01  <V453000> abandon ship
21:01:01  <andythenorth> super
21:01:11  <V453000> interesting
21:01:14  <andythenorth> engines have transitions from series/parallel etc
21:01:31  <andythenorth> and if diesel-electric, the diesel engine responds to that in different ways
21:01:38  <andythenorth> it's not like driving a car :P
21:01:52  <V453000> ok on a scale of 0 to 666 how evil is implementing wagons as engines? :D
21:01:55  <andythenorth> not
21:02:01  <andythenorth> I implement pax cars as engines
21:02:03  <V453000> omg finally wagons introduction is in news :P
21:02:05  <andythenorth> in some cases
21:02:12  <andythenorth> it's like 5
21:02:14  <V453000> really?
21:02:24  <V453000> isn't that annoying to build?
21:02:29  <andythenorth> don't care
21:02:33  <V453000> click buy, add to train, click buy, add to train
21:02:37  <andythenorth> yeah
21:02:45  <andythenorth> but build one, clone
21:02:49  <V453000> I guess you only do it at the start and the rest you clone
21:02:50  <V453000> yeah
21:03:00  <andythenorth> power scales with train length
21:03:05  <andythenorth> it's kind of fine
21:03:21  <andythenorth> 2000hp for every 16/8 length
21:03:21  <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:03:34  <andythenorth> all your ideas are super-realism V :P
21:03:38  <andythenorth> try harder
21:03:56  <V453000> yeah I didn't like that mechanic much because that just gives you 1 way how to use the train without possibility to sacrifice capacity for acceleration
21:04:09  <V453000> I think japanese train set EMUs have same capacity in wagons as in engines
21:04:12  <andythenorth> refit :P
21:04:14  <V453000> -> you only spam engines
21:04:23  <V453000> haha
21:05:01  <V453000> I think the T.E. thing is going to work on the engines fine, too
21:05:18  <V453000> actually much better than on the wagons
21:05:30  <V453000> because if the wagons ADD to the main engine, then you reach 255 rather fast quite likely
21:05:34  <V453000> and need to add weight after that
21:05:37  <V453000> which is weird
21:06:04  <V453000> but if each thing is actually engine, then the first one just gets a metric shitton, and each one after just less, and then it just all adds up
21:06:11  <andythenorth> I *really* want to change depot-flip behaviour
21:06:20  <andythenorth> so each ctrl-click increments a counter
21:06:25  <andythenorth> up to 16, then reset to 0
21:06:27  <V453000> :D
21:06:32  <V453000> jeez
21:06:34  <andythenorth> I am deadly serious
21:06:41  <andythenorth> we can shim the existing behaviour for old newgrfs
21:06:56  <andythenorth> then train vehicles can have 16 'variants'
21:06:58  <V453000> for liveries that's glorious
21:07:05  <V453000> almost nobody uses flipping anyway
21:07:05  <andythenorth> or anything else you invent
21:07:15  <V453000> I won't either because my engines are articulated
21:07:16  <V453000> gg
21:07:17  <andythenorth> instead of some hard-coded livery UI which won't please the foamers anyway
21:07:22  <andythenorth> articulated engines do it too
21:07:26  <frosch123> do people still use the ctrl+click signal rotation?
21:07:27  <andythenorth> that's part of my patch idea
21:07:49  <peter1138> Hi!
21:07:49  <V453000> frosch123: the semaphore/light signals?
21:07:52  <peter1138> Livery UI what?
21:07:54  <V453000> Hi!
21:07:55  <andythenorth> frosch123: there's _another_ way to do signals besides ctrl-click?
21:08:07  <andythenorth> V453000: for PBS one way
21:08:15  <V453000> ah
21:08:19  <andythenorth> I never touch the signal UI, it's dreadful
21:08:21  <V453000> changing type after built
21:08:25  <frosch123> V453000: no, i mean build pre signal by a) select presignal and build or b) build signal, ctrl+build to switch from normal to presignal
21:08:32  <V453000> I do that all the time
21:08:40  <andythenorth> 'choose colour light PBS', try to never look at signal UI ever again
21:08:40  <V453000> switching in gui is clicks elsewhere->slower
21:09:01  <andythenorth> always b
21:09:03  <andythenorth> choose b
21:09:12  <andythenorth> the signal UI is just two rows of confusing blobs
21:09:25  <V453000> so frosch123 what do you think about implementing all parts as engines, instead of wagons? :D
21:09:43  <frosch123> didn't you already answer that? annoying to build
21:10:04  <V453000> issue is player can just let parts out of the depot without the actual engine, too? :D without annoying check for vehicle can leave depot that is
21:10:10  <V453000> I guess I did, just asking for more opinions :)
21:10:15  <V453000> andythenorth is evil and twisted
21:10:21  <andythenorth> V453000: try
21:10:30  <andythenorth> Helm Wind, from 1980 or so
21:10:37  <andythenorth> it is annoying to build
21:10:55  <V453000> well I can imagine stacking engines being annoying to build
21:10:58  <peter1138> Should I do some coding.
21:11:02  <peter1138> Or... clean the bike off.
21:11:15  <V453000> peter1138: wagons with power and T.E. please :D
21:11:18  <andythenorth> clean the bike
21:11:24  <andythenorth> it will be harder next time
21:11:55  <peter1138> V453000, they're called engines.
21:12:03  <V453000> exactly, iz problem
21:12:16  <andythenorth> V453000: you can just
21:12:20  <V453000> they don't automatically add to consist on purchase :P
21:12:42  <V453000> yeah andy I used that shit at some point in NUTS
21:13:06  <andythenorth> never appealed to me
21:13:21  <V453000> I know I read somewhere that it's not recommended to use or something
21:13:31  <V453000> and there was some weird exploit that I did with it, I can't remember
21:13:44  <andythenorth> probably totally fine
21:13:47  *** Gja has quit IRC
21:13:52  <andythenorth> we're just prejudiced against old bits of spec :P
21:14:04  <V453000> probably :)
21:14:24  <frosch123> andy is just on a track to relearn history :p
21:14:56  <V453000> andythenorth: the wagon count is just bonkers
21:15:05  <V453000> why do so many of them seem to be duplicates?
21:15:30  <V453000> 3 small dump cars, same stats, slightly different prices?
21:15:45  <andythenorth> have to use 'vehicles expire'
21:15:45  <andythenorth> otherwise madness
21:15:53  <V453000> but what is it for?
21:16:06  <andythenorth> generations
21:16:09  <frosch123> since when do you show vehicles in blue and red?
21:16:11  <V453000> oh what the
21:16:30  <andythenorth> V453000: only way to evolve stats innit
21:16:46  <V453000> well you have 4 hopper wagons without any stat increase?
21:17:14  <andythenorth> "wagon speed limits"
21:17:20  <V453000> OH JESUS FUCK
21:17:24  <V453000> :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:17:28  <V453000> ok you win
21:17:30  * andythenorth waits for V453000 emoticons
21:17:33  <V453000> iz defeat
21:17:52  <andythenorth> I'm not even pretending to any other solution
21:17:59  <andythenorth> idea, pursued to logical maximum :P
21:18:08  <V453000> bbut
21:18:10  <V453000> WHY :d
21:18:11  <andythenorth> I might hate it by 2019
21:18:33  <andythenorth> how else to avoid having only one type of engine? o_O
21:18:37  <V453000> well at least the engines are in clear steps to match them
21:18:40  <andythenorth> it's this, or just one engine
21:18:53  <V453000> you mean forced 1 network with different engine types
21:18:58  <andythenorth> if logic ruled, purest grf is this
21:19:04  <andythenorth> - one engine, ultra everything
21:19:12  <andythenorth> - one wagon, universal refit, no limit, 8/8
21:19:16  <andythenorth> nothing else
21:19:29  <V453000> well my philosophy with NUTS is that you have 1 network with uniform things, but the next time you play you build something else
21:19:38  <V453000> that's choice :) having 1 engine for each cargo type isn't choice
21:19:40  <andythenorth> also why has nobody made The Ultimate GRF
21:20:13  <V453000> it's coming andythenorth :P
21:20:15  <V453000> 0 wagon grf
21:20:17  <V453000> engine only
21:20:18  <V453000> G_G
21:20:21  <andythenorth> more ultimate
21:21:05  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:21:16  <andythenorth> now you broke frosch V453000
21:21:19  <andythenorth> bad
21:21:39  <V453000> no it's past 11 :P
21:26:39  <andythenorth> also build-drag, build-drag is boring
21:27:26  <V453000> ?
21:27:46  <andythenorth> wagons-are-engines
21:28:01  * andythenorth thinking of alternatives
21:29:15  <andythenorth> V453000: refit subtype crap?
21:29:41  <V453000> how does that solve anything?
21:29:41  <andythenorth> can't see how that works tbh
21:29:50  <V453000> :D
21:29:58  <andythenorth> just crap as usual
21:30:27  <andythenorth> yeah, messing with lead engine stats is fine
21:30:40  <andythenorth> ordered combos...not
21:30:52  <andythenorth> can't think of alternatives
21:32:26  <andythenorth> V453000: you could do it like slots in other games, e.g. tanks, racing games etc
21:32:37  <andythenorth> so you get 3 slots after engine
21:32:50  <andythenorth> and choose from 9 power-up wagons
21:32:58  <andythenorth> rest are just cargo after that
21:33:11  <V453000> all out. :P
21:33:22  <andythenorth> yair
21:33:41  <andythenorth> the slots thing is just a way to avoid 27 engines in buy menu :P
21:33:44  <andythenorth> not wtf enough
21:34:15  <andythenorth> once concept is set, pursue to max, profit
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21:34:58  <andythenorth> also bed
21:35:07  <andythenorth> pursue sleep to max
21:35:32  <V453000> well I'd have 11 engines and 6 parts
21:36:34  <andythenorth> 72 million possible combos
21:36:38  <andythenorth> hard maths I did there
21:37:16  <V453000> omg ultimate train set
21:37:18  <V453000> also
21:37:28  <V453000> wagons as engines means you can autoreplace between wagons and engines
21:37:29  <V453000> ._>
21:37:45  <V453000> luckily I want to make only 1 "main engine" possible to attach per train
21:37:51  <V453000> so that fixes that
21:37:59  <V453000> because real engines are 16/8, wagons 8/8
21:38:03  <V453000> would fuck stuff
21:38:22  <V453000> still need to add checks to prevent players from building trains without the main engine :D
21:38:36  <V453000> which ... is that even possible?
21:38:41  <andythenorth> just nerf stats :P
21:38:44  <V453000> or just can't send from depots?
21:38:46  <andythenorth> 0 everything
21:38:47  <V453000> hm
21:38:51  <andythenorth> or can't send from depot
21:38:54  <V453000> hm
21:39:08  <V453000> can't send from depot might be the better alternative here
21:39:21  <V453000> although I can imagine it being quite hillarious to see wagon-only trains
21:39:38  <andythenorth> you could sack the lead engine
21:39:43  <andythenorth> just combo wagons :P
21:40:07  <V453000> that removes progression unless done by just a switch based on date
21:40:07  <andythenorth> legendary:
21:40:18  <andythenorth> "They are also particularly notable for their status as the very first combining subgroup of Transformers."
21:40:18  <V453000> which doesn't require autoreplace -> bad
21:40:38  <andythenorth> just give wagons generations
21:40:41  <andythenorth> 66 of them :P
21:40:50  <V453000> hm
21:40:53  <V453000> isn't stupid either
21:40:56  <V453000> not 66
21:40:59  <V453000> but yeah
21:41:03  <V453000> could work actually
21:41:09  <andythenorth> long buy menu is fine, it turns out
21:41:11  <V453000> omfg.
21:41:14  <andythenorth> just don't fill it with shit sprites
21:41:25  <andythenorth> or pointless 'my favourite train'
21:41:38  <V453000> well 11 generations of 5 parts is still ok-ish
21:41:46  <V453000> having 11 + 5 I find better though
21:42:05  <andythenorth> MOAR WAGONS
21:42:10  <V453000> yeah, maybe just nerfing stats without leading engine is fine
21:42:10  <andythenorth> well
21:42:30  <V453000> andythenorth: visually it's like 14k wagon sprites :P
21:42:35  <V453000> ++
21:42:40  <andythenorth> 'visually' :P
21:42:57  <V453000> cargoes, variations, generations
21:42:57  <andythenorth> all those grfs with lots of engines, and no wagons :P
21:43:09  <andythenorth> abolish engine
21:43:11  <V453000> iz wagons, just hidden in refit
21:43:16  <andythenorth> train is mostly wagons
21:43:27  <V453000> unless iz all engines
21:43:28  <andythenorth> ok I am +1 here
21:43:29  <V453000> G_G checkmate
21:43:56  <andythenorth> do big and small ones :P
21:44:38  <V453000> Option B is to still use wagons but with powered, max wagon speed, and ignore T.E.
21:44:59  <V453000> but I guess 1 is ignored, and max wagon speed can be toggled by a setting
21:45:04  <V453000> and powered doing weird shit
21:45:08  <V453000> -> no win
21:45:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:46:16  <andythenorth> just go full wtf
21:46:58  <V453000> the engines are wtf but kind of controllable wtf
21:47:16  <V453000> autoreplace can be bullied by not allowing the consist
21:48:12  <V453000> oh, isn't idiot proof
21:48:19  <V453000> you can autoreplace the main engine to a part
21:48:42  <V453000> and not be able to go back because the leading part is the same as 1+ other parts in consist
21:49:17  <V453000> I guess can't leave depot does autoreplace the train and then make it stuck in depot?
21:50:15  <V453000> well, I better go die on bed
21:50:25  <V453000> this doesn't lead to places :D
21:50:31  <V453000> good night, thanks for talk :)
21:52:16  <_dp_> hm, interesting, when you set growth rate with GS it doesn't necessarily mean town will grow.
21:52:35  <_dp_> still requires climate-specific cargo for example
21:53:42  <peter1138> Okay done.
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