Log for #openttd on 5th May 2018:
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06:27:03  <peter1138> Hmm, I think it's not even needed.
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06:36:52  <andythenorth> o/
06:37:04  <V453000> oy
06:47:08  <V453000> I think I can do a weird mix of stuff to get my thing through
06:47:38  <V453000> possibly even without engine-wagon bulltrash
06:47:56  <V453000> oh actually nvm
06:48:02  <V453000> engine-wagon thing still :)
06:50:33  <V453000> andythenorth: how could I make something like a train depot replica in a website? :D Could python do that?
06:50:55  <V453000> you would drag&drop images behind each other with snapping to get a train and see it's numbers
06:51:00  <V453000> like a train configurator
07:02:15  <andythenorth> V453000: javascript
07:02:33  <V453000> I've used that in Ae
07:02:42  <V453000> can't say I'm too enthusiastic to try that again :D
07:02:49  <andythenorth> me neither
07:02:51  <V453000> but eh what could possibly go wrong
07:03:09  <V453000> was kind of naively hoping the almighty snake could do it
07:05:18  <andythenorth> is it docs, or a configurator that generates a grf?
07:06:40  <V453000> docs
07:07:07  <andythenorth> web browsers don't run snake
07:07:09  <andythenorth> and Flash is dead
07:07:21  <andythenorth> so your choices are JS, or Unity
07:07:28  <andythenorth> and Unity is evil and full of evil
07:07:40  <V453000> :D ok
07:07:50  <V453000> I'll probably try JS then at some point
07:07:58  <V453000> would be a great doc
07:08:05  <andythenorth>
07:08:21  <andythenorth> combine with
07:08:36  <andythenorth> it's a total PITA to write JS though
07:08:38  <andythenorth> I hate it
07:09:10  <V453000> that's the general consesus that I got so far and from writing basic Ae expressions I agree from the basic syntax thing
07:09:31  <peter1138> JS is fine.
07:10:11  <andythenorth> 'fine'
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07:31:02  <andythenorth> V453000: I'm bored
07:33:04  <V453000> ? :D
07:33:05  <V453000> how
07:34:08  <andythenorth> I wrecked Horse
07:34:15  <andythenorth> and I wrecked a ship grf
07:34:26  <andythenorth> bored of drawing trains and ships
07:34:29  <andythenorth> wreck something else?
07:35:14  <V453000> xd
07:41:44  * andythenorth eats greens
07:41:49  <andythenorth> draw tank car \ / views
07:41:56  <andythenorth> worst job ever
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08:05:22  <Wolf01> o/
08:09:46  <Wolf01> While having your trains station automatically named "Satan's Anal Railways" is mildly funny, it's a bit confusing and not very family friendly. <- fine, we managed to autogenerate city names like this too :D
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08:40:20  <Wolf01> andythenorth?
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08:41:59  <V453000> anus
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09:09:26  <TrueBrain> didn't know we were on a first-name-basis V453000
09:14:12  <V453000> first name basis? :D
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09:19:37  <TrueBrain> you said anus .. not me :P
09:21:46  <V453000> I was just quoting Wolf :P
09:22:07  <V453000> ish
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10:19:32  <andythenorth> this is interesting
10:21:45  <Wolf01> Yes
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10:24:04  <V453000> ._.
10:25:51  <andythenorth> quite like that behaviour
10:39:56  <V453000> holy shit I completely forgot how recolour sprites work :D
10:40:06  <V453000> staring at rainbow slug code for last 20 mins
10:44:02  <andythenorth> how do they work?
10:44:14  * andythenorth just uses code from frosch
10:44:17  <andythenorth> probably just a remap?
10:44:30  <V453000> well
10:44:34  <V453000> I also have code from frosch :D
10:46:15  <V453000> just wow
10:46:18  <V453000> it worked on first try :D
10:46:28  <V453000> colour_mapping: palette_2cc(COLOUR_RED,COLOUR_RED);
10:46:44  <V453000> not a custom one but I don't need that yet
10:47:58  <V453000> aha
10:48:05  <V453000> this weird shit actually moves in the parameter things :D param[01]+16
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11:07:23  <V453000> frosch123: do you have a minute? :) I've finally written down 2 engines as the booster parts, and I want to try to do maximum speed = some_speed * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist ... how would I write a switch like this?
11:07:37  <V453000> do I need to go through every single case of count_veh_id?
11:08:48  <V453000> or is there some of the store_temp magic to do it more elegantly?
11:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you just can write the formula down, where you usually would put your variable, and one single empty "return;" statement
11:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that will be interpreted as "return the value of this formula"
11:09:52  <V453000> so literally speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist; in the graphics block?
11:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> like in the very first switch in this
11:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it might also work in the graphics block
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11:11:34  <V453000> I guess in the graphics block it doesn't know what to look for
11:11:42  <V453000> like the FEAT_TRAINS and SELF
11:11:47  <V453000> I did speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist;
11:11:47  <V453000> :D
11:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it probably assumes "SELF" at that point
11:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and FEAT_TRAINS is implied because you're in a graphics block
11:13:00  <V453000> nmlc ERROR: "PART.nml", line 485: 'count_veh_id' is a function and should be called using the function call syntax.
11:13:04  <V453000> it doesn't enjoy that
11:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause> count_veh_id(number)
11:13:25  <V453000> number?
11:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> number is the ID that you want to count
11:13:43  <V453000> OH
11:13:44  <V453000> :D
11:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> like count_veh_id(vehicle_blah)
11:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle name should work
11:14:19  <V453000> used number ID, seems to have compiled
11:15:05  <V453000> it's doing something!
11:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have "item(vehicle_blah)", then using "vehicle_blah" should work in the context where a vehicle ID is asked for
11:16:54  <V453000> :DDD I didn't realize that If I divide by number of wagons then the speed never increases if I only use speed parts :D
11:16:55  <V453000> well
11:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't have to do "item(vehicle_blah, 25)" to know you have to put "25" in there
11:17:15  <V453000> yez
11:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you divide by an integer number, you actually can only decrease :p
11:18:09  <V453000> well yeah but speed is added per each unit added
11:18:19  <V453000> but the efficiency of units is divided by their count, so obviously... :
11:18:21  <V453000> :D
11:18:41  <V453000> well I already divided their count by another number :)
11:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably meant something like "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/3, ..."
11:19:20  <V453000> yeah I guess
11:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that adds up to aroud log(n)
11:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> *around
11:19:37  <V453000> can I use such function in nml?
11:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> look up "harmonic numbers"
11:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure NFO covers log :ü
11:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
11:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd find it surprising if it did :p
11:20:58  <V453000> iz what I thought
11:21:09  <V453000> well ok then I just need find some other way how to write that
11:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone think i should finally switch my clock forward 1h?
11:21:42  <V453000> maybe I don't even need it though
11:21:44  <V453000> :d
11:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could also do "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/4, ..."
11:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that way you have a cap on 2 units for an infinitely long train
11:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need any fancy log functions
11:23:39  <V453000> but how would you calculate the thing you just said or 1, 1/2, 1/3
11:24:07  <V453000> I need the total value but I can't iterate through the result of the count_vehid?
11:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause>,+k%3D1..n) <-- that is not very helpful :p
11:25:51  <V453000> :D that part I kind of understand
11:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause>,+k%3D1..n) <-- that is easy
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11:32:51  <V453000> is it? :d
11:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you'd have to bring 1-2^(-n) into a form which is suitible for integer division
11:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so 1-1/2^n -> (2^n-1)/2^n
11:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and 2^n is just 1<<n
11:35:12  <__ln__> V453000: yes, it's basic rocket science
11:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basic advanced maths :p
11:36:22  <V453000> wait I can put ^n into NML syntax? :d
11:38:57  <V453000> I did speed: return (100*(2^count_veh_id(150)-1))/2^(num_vehs_in_consist-2);
11:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no, only 2^n
11:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> or does it have real ^?
11:39:12  <V453000> it compiled but it does weird shit
11:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably bitwise xor
11:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> not power
11:39:49  <V453000> well the result for count_veh_id worked for 1 and 2 :D then it went mad
11:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's not ging to be helfpful :p
11:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> just use 1<<
11:41:16  <V453000> what does that mean?
11:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a bitshift
11:41:44  <V453000> that's something I heard in factorio combinators :D doesn't mean I have idea what it does
11:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause> 1<<0 is 1, 1<<1 is binary "10", so 2
11:41:50  <V453000> oh is it like a /2 /4 /8 thing?
11:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:42:04  <V453000> :00000
11:43:35  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you that formula will break for very long trains
11:43:46  <V453000> define very long :D
11:43:58  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your "100*"
11:44:31  <V453000> :0
11:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but basically: 2^n uses n bits, in a 32-bit calculation you can thus have a maximum of 32 wagons before it breaks. minus 1 for every bit that your "100" uses
11:45:55  <V453000> :D
11:45:57  <V453000> oh.
11:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> means this formula works for your proof of concept, but you should probably get a formula that is a bit less demanding
11:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or go through floating point maths
11:46:45  <V453000> well the concept already seems to work so I guess I should focus on getting something that counts properly now
11:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember if NML can convert float/integer
11:48:20  <V453000> I'll try first if the simple formula that I already have works fine
11:48:23  <V453000> because it might
11:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- doesn't look like float is available here
11:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be a desync hazard if allowed
11:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the other option would be if you made a "lookup table", i.e. a switch with every possible n->f(n) mapping
11:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> at that point it would be useful again if NML implemented "procedure calls"
11:56:11  <frosch123> just go for an easier formula
11:56:24  <frosch123> exponential stuff is too extreme
11:56:35  <andythenorth> eh what?
11:56:41  <andythenorth> so what's left on NRT?
11:56:43  <andythenorth> or is it dead?
11:56:54  <andythenorth> I'm confused
11:57:42  <Wolf01> Rebase, merge the town roads branch (and change the roadtype algorythm), ship it
11:57:59  <frosch123> V453000: try something like (10+count_veh_id(veh_booster)) / (3+count_veh_id(veh_booster)
11:58:22  <frosch123> that gives a big effect to few booster vehicles, and little effect to many
11:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem is to calculate sum(...) without iterating
12:00:16  <Wolf01> andythenorth: also remove the check for electrification in converting town roads, so one could convert them back to normal road, they said there is no such thing as griefing inf OTTD, so let them do it
12:01:13  <andythenorth> ok
12:03:17  <V453000> the current thing might actually work well enough once I start adding other parts
12:03:18  <V453000> :) return 100 * count_veh_id(150) / ((num_vehs_in_consist-2) /2);
12:03:21  <V453000> thanks frosch123 ,I'll save it
12:04:11  <V453000> ok, onwards to other parts, those should be easy now :)
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12:09:26  <frosch123> V453000:
12:10:14  <frosch123> by changing the "/2" you control the effect when adding very many vehicles, by adjusting the 10 and 3 you change the curve for few vehicles
12:11:34  <V453000> I understand, thank you :)
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12:16:12  <frosch123> V453000: also for your web-configurator for trains, i would suggest to use a spreadsheed application
12:16:34  <frosch123> allow people ending A/B/C/D into the cells of a row to define the wagons
12:16:41  <frosch123> then make the spreadsheet count the letters
12:16:58  <frosch123> s/ending/entering/
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12:20:54  <andythenorth> hmm
12:21:08  <andythenorth> so Iron Horse and Sam can't be shipped, too wrecked
12:21:14  <andythenorth> maybe I should wreck FIRS now
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12:28:18  <V453000> frosch123: already have a google spreadsheet for that :P
12:30:12  <peter1138> hi
12:32:08  <V453000> hihi
13:09:29  * Mazur plays factorio as well, now.
13:18:10  * peter1138 plays C++
13:18:41  <V453000> that's not too different :P
13:19:12  * andythenorth plays pixels
13:19:29  * V453000 plays NML
13:19:50  <peter1138> Oh, Transport Fever is on sale.
13:20:02  <V453000> XD
13:20:07  <peter1138> Is that any good?
13:20:47  <V453000> for train sim people I guess it's nice
13:20:53  <V453000> didn't try
13:29:44  <nielsm> the main attraction of train fever, to me, is the ability to build realistic track layouts
13:29:57  <nielsm> and being constrained into it
13:30:02  <nielsm> transport fever too
13:30:03  <Wolf01> "realistic"
13:30:11  <V453000> XD
13:30:27  <nielsm> relatively, compared to transport tycoon
13:30:43  <Wolf01> You build like TT without sharp angles
13:31:29  <V453000> factorio has realistic trains in that case :P
13:31:38  <nielsm> and layouts that can actually support high speeds take up significantly more space
13:31:41  <Wolf01> Lacks bridges and tunnels
13:31:42  <nielsm> requires more planning imo
13:31:46  <V453000> gg
13:32:13  <Wolf01> Now you have cliffs and you can add bridges and tunnels
13:32:37  <V453000> maybe one day
13:34:49  <V453000> WHAT WAS IT :D that defines wagons vs. engines?
13:34:58  <V453000> I thought it would be TE coefficient
13:35:29  <V453000> nvm I can't read
13:35:57  <peter1138> no, it's power.
13:36:09  <V453000> disabled both. :>
13:37:23  <andythenorth> V453000: do \ / views matter at all? :P
13:37:43  <V453000> I'd say those are more important than | -
13:37:56  <V453000> I think generall you build diagonals less, and stations etc
13:38:05  <V453000> but side views are for depots so they catch up there
13:38:50  <peter1138> Yea
13:41:20  <andythenorth> basically a \ / view is just blobs
13:41:34  <peter1138> That's why 2x.
13:44:21  <andythenorth> I should have drawn the \ / views first, not – :P
13:44:32  <andythenorth> nothing from the – view fits or makes sense in \ /
13:44:56  <V453000> :D
13:45:03  <V453000> well I must admit I always started with /
13:45:12  <andythenorth> wise
13:45:20  <andythenorth> these Horse sprites are all bollocks now
13:45:33  <andythenorth> I used to do \ / views first
13:46:24  <peter1138> Now you know why.
13:46:39  <andythenorth> it's kind of a challenge :P
13:46:57  <andythenorth> not sure I can make 6 different mail cars
13:47:03  <andythenorth> there aren't enough pixels in \ / view
13:47:18  <peter1138> Antialiasing.
13:47:22  <V453000> :D
13:47:29  <andythenorth> sub-pixel :P
13:47:36  <peter1138> 2x ;)
13:48:08  <andythenorth> or call the whole thing off :P
13:48:24  <peter1138> :(
13:48:53  <andythenorth> pikka is doing new Horse anyway
13:48:56  <andythenorth> in 8x
13:49:42  <peter1138> Cubicles.
13:54:01  <V453000> :D
13:56:14  <V453000> it hates something :(
13:56:42  <V453000> but I can attach the vehicle to the train no problem
13:56:51  <V453000> and when I build the next ones, they work fine
13:57:56  <V453000> OH
13:58:07  <V453000> because without the leading engine the consist is -1
13:58:08  <V453000> :D
13:58:08  <V453000> XD
13:58:10  <V453000> FUCK
14:00:25  <V453000> still weird though why it fails only on the first attempt
14:00:47  <V453000> ayy fixed
14:00:50  <V453000> :> chat spam
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15:20:24  <andythenorth> delete all trains
15:33:53  <nielsm> eh well that's a quick game too
15:34:03  <nielsm> 1960-2006, map (mostly) filled
15:34:40  <nielsm> ffwd almost all the time
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15:36:36  <V453000> frosch123: if you have a minute, this doesn't seem to work properly I think :/ but I don't really understand why. I understand the switch_2, I guess it just checks for current speed? but the other one is mysterious to me
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15:41:31  <frosch123> V453000: yes, B4 is speed
15:41:54  <frosch123> the 8A part is the current order, and the B2 part is the vehicle-stopped-manually state
15:42:12  <frosch123> "loading/unloading" is a type of current order
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15:45:49  <frosch123> V453000: i guess the switches only work for the front engine, so possibly using PARENT instead of SELF is better
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15:53:03  <V453000> that's weird, it's already used on the front engine so SELF should not matter ... tested with PARENT and it seems to do the same thing
15:53:25  <V453000> when the train stops at a signal, something is happening, but the running cost is weirdly blinking between smoe two values
15:53:30  <V453000> some*
15:54:54  <V453000> oh yea
15:55:19  <V453000> it kind of works, but the train alternates between the 500 and 250 in those switches in the link when stopped at a signal, most of the time it's at the 250 which is strange
15:56:42  <V453000> haha
15:56:50  <V453000> using 0..1 in the most expensive mode helps
15:56:51  <V453000> weird
15:57:30  <frosch123> hmm, i thought we fixed that :p
15:58:17  <frosch123> it used to be the case that waiting vehicles would accelerate and only when they progresses far enough to move a step, they would notice the red signal and stop, and restart accelerating again
15:58:25  <frosch123> maybe it's still like that :p
16:00:16  <V453000> I need to do 0..7, seems to work now
16:00:49  <V453000> hmm still not perfect
16:01:19  <andythenorth> Horse 32% done
16:02:26  <V453000> ok 0..15 :D
16:02:27  <V453000> holy shit
16:03:46  <V453000> I'll say that to the police next time I see them that 16kmh means stopped :P
16:09:51  <andythenorth> has anyone ever tried rendering sprites? o_O
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16:11:03  <frosch123> what does that mean?
16:12:59  <andythenorth> means I'm bored of trying to draw tube shapes :P
16:13:32  <frosch123> did you try duping your front views into zephyris' tool?
16:13:33  <andythenorth> FISH was based on rendered ships, but the forced scale was all wrong :)
16:13:40  <andythenorth> hmm that's an idea
16:13:54  <andythenorth> presumably it just does a transform on them :P
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16:19:00  <andythenorth> it's a nice tool, doesn't get me good results though :)
16:21:59  <nielsm> for rendering sprites in TT scale from 3D/vector art, and having it look reasonable, I think you'd need a kind of hinting similar to what truetype fonts do
16:22:40  <nielsm> to basically prioritize features
16:24:39  <peter1138> render for 2x or 4x :p
16:25:10  <V453000> for the player, is there any visible difference between increasing engine running cost or wagon running cost?
16:27:54  <nielsm> afaik all the financials for the train are accounted on the front engine, so there wouldn't be
16:29:17  <V453000> right
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17:15:37  <Wolf01> Bye
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18:10:17  * andythenorth wonders
18:10:26  <andythenorth> peter1138: such livery UI? o_O
18:10:32  <andythenorth> or is it all sunshine today?
18:11:33  <peter1138> Doing a BBQ.
18:11:40  <peter1138> But yeah, guess I'd forgotten that :p
18:11:51  <peter1138> But that resize issue
18:18:35  <andythenorth> oh dear :)
18:18:54  <andythenorth> 45 million Brits probably having a BBQ today
18:19:14  <peter1138> Contributing to global warming.
19:02:25  <peter1138> Well.
19:17:27  <peter1138> Widgets, eh. Are they magic?
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19:48:49  <frosch123> any opinions on allowing non-english project descriptions and/or reviews on bananas2?
19:49:24  <andythenorth> what does Steam do? o_O`
19:49:45  <frosch123> would korean/russian grf authors want to post korean/russian descriptions and read reviews?
19:50:07  <frosch123> sometimes you read chinese stuff on steam, when there is no english
19:51:52  <frosch123> reviews seem to have a language
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19:52:34  <Pikka> ding dong
19:52:35  <frosch123> but my system is configured to english
19:52:40  <andythenorth> si pikka bob
19:52:44  <glx> reviews can be in any language
19:52:44  <frosch123> so, not sure whether it would show me other languages
19:53:05  <glx> descriptions also can be translated
19:53:51  <frosch123> ok, let's allow reviews with languages
19:54:00  <frosch123> but i think translated descriptions would be a mess :p
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21:51:12  <ahles> He guys, I recently found back my old hobby again. And i was looking at the multiplayer function, can anybody help me with it as i'm not seeing any connectinos
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