Log for #openttd on 6th May 2018:
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00:16:49  *** ArtemVorotnikov[m] is now known as vorot93
00:17:02  <vorot93> hello
00:26:01  <vorot93> I've started skimming through the code and what strikes me is how modern C++ features and stdlib are underused. For instance, an otherwise simple `GRFText` class which is full of custom allocation code for dealing with underlying `char[]`. Is there a particular reason for this except for the code having been written in pre-modern C++ era?
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00:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly it's because the code is old
00:57:58  <vorot93> (also the fact that a class is both declared and defined in .cpp)
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04:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 18*600
04:52:12  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 10800
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06:28:35  <andythenorth> o/
06:29:37  <Pikka> o/
06:30:00  <peter1138> hi
06:30:44  <Pikka> bonjour
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07:59:46  <Wolf01> Moin
08:02:13  <Pikka> V453000,
08:02:55  <Pikka> "when the train stops at a signal, something is happening, but the running cost is weirdly blinking between smoe two values"
08:04:23  <Pikka> but who uses non-path signals anyway? ;)
08:05:26  <nielsm> standard block signals sort-of make sense to use along a line without junctions? and just use path signals when you have splits
08:05:41  <nielsm> at least I've seen claims that using path signals for that uses more cpu
08:06:08  <nielsm> (which matters if you're on a server on a cheap shared hosting)
08:07:39  <LordAro> well they're definitely "more expensive"
08:07:58  <LordAro> but i've never seen any actual evidence that they're a significant factor
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09:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that claim has ever been conclusively proven
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10:00:30  <andythenorth_> o/
10:01:21  <Wolf01> o/
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10:02:23  <andythenorth_> sunny
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10:19:22  <Pikka> not that sunny, then?
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11:08:49  <Pikka> it's not sunny here but
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11:12:18  <nielsm>  <- this was merged and can be closed
11:16:51  <michi_cc> Hmm, slight bummer with low-level DirectMusic... Feeding raw MIDI was actually easier than expected (except some tiny hickups with stopping), but the whole point would be to allow the DMusic synth to be used.
11:17:46  <michi_cc> And that synth is a DLS synth which needs a DLS download. And the DLS loading code is not part of the low-level stuff, which means a custom DLS file parser. Joy.
11:18:21  <nielsm> :D
11:18:40  <nielsm> I think you still wouldn't get the reverb effects either
11:19:00  <nielsm> I think you need to manually insert and control some effect DMOs in the sound path for those
11:19:47  <michi_cc> Otherwise, the raw DirectMusic API is probably the superior MIDI API as it works with timestamped midi messages.
11:20:14  <nielsm> hm well winmm also has the midiStreamOut API which takes timestamped messages
11:20:24  <nielsm> but the docs for it confused me
11:20:41  <nielsm> so was easier to use the direct
11:21:15  <michi_cc> nielsm: Nope, that seems to be the synth itself. You can use the low-level API and only the high-level DLS reader and get the same sound. It's just not part of 64-bit windows or the current SDK headers.
11:21:45  <nielsm> but I think it's better to just make an open source softsynth work properly on windows
11:22:04  <nielsm> since MS is still marking all of dmusic as deprecated and threatening with removing it
11:24:44  <michi_cc> Yeah, but it can't be that deprecated. DirectMusic was initially not implemented at all for 64-bit, but MS then later added parts of with Windows 7. You wouldn't do that just for fun.
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11:38:30  <nielsm> for gloating, here's how the music sounds on a real roland soundcanvas:
11:38:41  <nielsm> (SC-55st)
11:42:28  <nielsm> the drums are cleaner and the slapped bass better defined than the MS synth DLS recordings, but mostly the effects on the MS synth are actually excessive IMO
11:42:46  <nielsm> so no need to be that much up in arms over it ;)
11:45:14  <nielsm> also the theme:
11:45:50  <andythenorth> I love it when people obsess over details :)
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11:47:09  <nielsm> nobody who isn't obsessive over details would still bother with TT :)
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12:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> midi sounded really awesome on my SoundBlaster AWE32 back then
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12:39:24  <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately i have no computer where it fits in anymore
12:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose there's PCI-E to ISA adapters?
12:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
12:41:21  <peter1138> Progress, eh?
12:42:18  <peter1138> Back in the day you'd have multiple audio channels for mixing, wavetable synth, OPL FM synth, digital effects...
12:42:38  <peter1138> Now they just expect the CPU to do it all.
12:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> back in the day you'd have to manually fiddle with IRQ settings
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13:37:52  <andythenorth> Wolf01: rebase NRT? o_O
13:38:03  <andythenorth> or one giant patch?
13:38:51  <Wolf01> New repo + one giant patch could help to clean up things
13:39:49  <andythenorth> have you got a new Openttd/Wolf?
13:40:31  <Wolf01> Yes, but I rebased every branch I had
13:41:57  <Wolf01> I was working on a new repo for NRT to make it like in 2-3 distinct commits, so it could be merged to master in different steps
13:42:05  <andythenorth> so I'll leave this in place
13:42:13  <andythenorth> would be stupid to delete that :)
13:42:26  <Wolf01> You could rename it NRT-depr
13:42:32  <andythenorth> ok
13:42:41  <andythenorth> well I'll at least add notes
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13:49:47  <Wolf01> Quak
13:50:27  <Wolf01> So, I think it's time to have a breakfast... I ate too much yesterday and only now I can feel again I'm hungry
13:52:10  <frosch123> moi
13:53:53  <andythenorth> @calc (119/2)/24
13:53:53  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.47916666667
13:53:57  <andythenorth> hmm
13:54:10  <andythenorth> I can draw 2 trains per hour, Horse will take time :P
14:04:30  <peter1138> Is that including \ | and / views? :p
14:04:53  <peter1138> Plus doubling up for assymmetric wagons.
14:08:30  <andythenorth> it's including all of that
14:09:30  <andythenorth> it also includes all of the time restarting openttd :)
14:09:40  <andythenorth> and rebuilding my lost saves
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14:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> why restart? isn't it enough to reload_newgrfs?
14:46:44  <andythenorth> it crashes a lot
14:46:49  <andythenorth> either cleanly, or not
14:47:15  <andythenorth> ottd really hates the grf changing on disk under it
14:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, if you let the game unpaused while you change it.
14:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you reload_newgrf, and didn't change any vehicle lengths or whatnot, it should work
14:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> (that implies a few assumptions like stable vehicle IDs between compiles)
14:50:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but that should cover all your drawing concerns
14:55:05  <LordAro> feel like it should be able to cope a bit better than hard crashing anyway
14:57:20  <frosch123> nml unlinks the file, before writing the new grf
14:57:38  <frosch123> so unless andy has a custom cp/install in place, i have no idea why ottd should crash
14:57:40  <dusan> testing 123
14:58:48  <andythenorth> I have a make install target
14:59:00  <frosch123> then i would blame it on that one :)
14:59:01  <andythenorth> which might be exactly the cause
14:59:16  <andythenorth> it crashes hard, even sometimes when the change is just a pixel
14:59:41  <dusan> what are you guys upto
15:00:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: is there a better way? o_O
15:00:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: try adding "--remove-destination" to the cp
15:00:54  <frosch123> but no idea how standard that is
15:00:57  <frosch123> it may be a gnu extension
15:01:05  * andythenorth reading about it
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15:02:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i just have a symlink to my development file
15:03:08  <andythenorth> seems --remove-destination isn't in macOS cp
15:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> then add "rm $destination"
15:03:39  <andythenorth> there's a -f
15:03:44  <andythenorth> might not be what I want
15:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
15:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably "ignore readonly" and stuff
15:05:53  <andythenorth> so what's the underlying reason to rm first?
15:06:01  <andythenorth> I don't like cargo culting stuff :)
15:06:21  <frosch123> the difference is between replacing the file with a new one
15:06:39  <frosch123> or replacnig the content of the file
15:06:41  <andythenorth> is someone about to say 'inode'? o_O
15:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd will not try to read the changed file, but will retain a (hidden) link to the old file, while you write the new file
15:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the old file will be deleted when openttd drops the file handle (on "reload_newgrf") or close
15:07:43  <andythenorth> ok
15:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i wasn't going to, the concept of inode is even another level deeper
15:07:58  <andythenorth> we have similar issues with web apps on production servers
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15:08:09  <andythenorth> they don't always release a file cleanly, with varying results
15:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could have all sorts of fractal problems there :p
15:10:34  <andythenorth> occasionally a file looks released, but some process is still writing to it, so the disk fills
15:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you know about "lsof"?
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15:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> might help debugging that problem
15:11:43  <andythenorth> I only have to witness it being solved :)
15:11:55  <andythenorth> other people know about lsof
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15:15:44  <andythenorth> I've made that change in makefiles ,thanks
15:22:31  <andythenorth> should help a lot
15:55:02  <andythenorth> @calc 16/3
15:55:02  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 5.33333333333
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16:29:19  <Guest1915> hi
16:29:22  <Guest1915> who ruined this game?
16:29:32  <Guest1915> by ruined, I mean, implemented terraforming limits
16:29:53  <Guest1915> how do I turn this bs off?
16:30:04  <LordAro> it's been there for at least 5 years
16:30:17  <LordAro> and pretty sure there's a setting anyway
16:30:19  <Guest1915> strange because I haven't noticed in 2015
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16:30:37  <Guest1915> I typed in "terraforming" in settings search and it's not popping up
16:31:31  <nielsm> what kind of limits?
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16:31:48  <Guest1915> <Guest1915> by ruined, I mean, implemented terraforming limits
16:31:55  <Guest1915> I can't level a mountain
16:31:58  <nielsm> I've never bumped into anything limiting how much landscaping I can do
16:32:38  <LordAro> yeah, looks like it's not in the gui
16:33:00  <LordAro> terraform_frame_burst
16:33:07  <LordAro> alternatively, just wait a bit
16:33:26  <LordAro> or do it in smaller chunks
16:34:34  <Guest1915>
16:34:47  <Guest1915> I can't wait 543980 years before I make 1 train line, cmon :/
16:35:05  <nielsm> then change the limit in the config file
16:35:25  <nielsm> I think it's a setting to limit griefing potential in multiplayer games, mainly?
16:36:01  <Guest1915> this is ridiculous
16:36:40  <Guest1915> terraform_per_64k_frames, is that it?
16:36:49  <LordAro> probably
16:36:57  <LordAro> or just wait 64k frames :p
16:37:01  <Guest1915> :|
16:37:05  <Guest1915> I will set this to -1
16:37:08  <Guest1915> and after I'm done
16:37:10  <nielsm> 64k frames is how much...
16:37:15  <Guest1915> I will write a patch set that removes this bs
16:37:16  <LordAro> @calc 64000/74
16:37:16  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 864.864864865
16:37:24  <LordAro> that many seconds
16:37:29  <LordAro> Guest1915: yoi're being silly
16:37:33  <LordAro> and overly agressive
16:37:43  <Guest1915> ;-;
16:38:01  <Guest1915> sorry if I came up rough, but this is majorly griefing my openttd experience
16:38:19  <Guest1915> rest asured the patch will be just for myself
16:38:36  <LordAro> why on earth do you need a patch then?
16:38:41  <LordAro> it's got a config setting
16:38:49  <LordAro> surely that is simpler
16:40:59  <LordAro> not sure i've ever actually seen anyone (who wasn't griefing) hit that limit before anyway
16:41:46  <Guest1915> me trying to level a mountain just so I can establish a maglev that doesn't have to ride up and down has hit that limit
16:43:32  <LordAro> doesn't look like a huge mountain, i wonder if that setting hadn't been set to a lower value than default
16:43:34  <nielsm> (not like the maglev train would actually be slowed by the presence of the mountain)
16:43:52  <LordAro> ^ unless original acceleration model
16:44:49  <Guest1915> I am on the original accel model
16:45:16  <LordAro> i see
16:46:18  <nielsm> anyway, as far as I can tell, the terraform_frame_burst setting in the cfg file controls how many tiles-permitted-to-modify you get per tick
16:47:30  <nielsm> but just be aware that internally it's handled as an uint32 and for some reason values are shiftes 16 bits left
16:48:18  <LordAro> Rubidium was original implementer, iirc
16:49:14  <nielsm> introduced between version 1.0 and 1.1
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16:50:20  <Rubidium> nielsm: easy, values are 'per 64k ticks', so shift back by 16 bits and you got the value per tick
16:50:38  <Rubidium> after all 64k (in this instance) == 2**16
16:51:44  <Rubidium> also, with both settings at their maximum value you have to be really really good at your "job" to even trigger it
16:52:43  <LordAro> nielsm: ah, 7 years then :p
17:07:03  <Borg> Orginal accel model?!!! wtf?!!
17:07:10  <Borg> oh he left..
17:07:17  <Borg> probably some noob..
17:07:19  <Borg> ignore him
17:07:20  <Borg> ;)
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17:48:40  <peter1138> How dare you ruin the game!
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18:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, how dare you ruin the game retroactively 7 years ago, and nobody, even him, noticed
18:22:19  <andythenorth> if you like Pearl Jam
18:22:22  <andythenorth> otherwise ignore :P
18:28:35  <peter1138> Shows you how much I play the game, cos I've never seen it.
18:28:44  <peter1138> Mind you I don't flatten mountains.
18:29:23  <andythenorth> me neither
18:29:34  <andythenorth> and I play maybe 10 games per year
18:31:00  <LordAro> wow, 10
18:35:50  <andythenorth> loads eh
19:10:32  * andythenorth wonders how long narrow gauge wagons should be 
19:10:35  <andythenorth> in /8 units
19:10:56  <andythenorth> 'small' standard gauge are 4/8
19:13:33  <V453000> 666
19:14:15  <andythenorth> @666/8 * 16
19:14:45  <andythenorth> probably not good in corners though
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19:46:49  <andythenorth> 3/8 is kind of nice
19:46:55  <andythenorth> but doesn't make nice integer lengths
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19:50:18  <V453000> well then I guess if NG has to be smaller, 3/8 it iz
19:50:30  <V453000> that's crazy small though, make sure you start with \ / :P
19:50:55  <andythenorth> 2/8 is even worse
19:51:03  <andythenorth> 4/8 winner
19:51:07  <frosch123> make wagons with 3 articualted parts
19:51:15  <frosch123> than fake the 9/8 into 8/8
19:51:28  <andythenorth> might be valid
19:51:34  <V453000> :D
19:51:35  <andythenorth> because capacity per wagon is so low
19:54:05  <andythenorth>
19:58:56  <andythenorth> 10t per wagon eh
19:59:12  <V453000> well that's 30t 8/8
20:00:04  <andythenorth> yair
20:01:14  <V453000> "standard" :P
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20:12:36  <Pikka> very
20:14:16  <V453000> Pikka: moar trainz? :)
20:14:37  <Pikka> many
20:14:52  <V453000> such
20:14:56  <Pikka> if I can stop fiddling with the AI for ten minutes
20:16:16  <andythenorth> is it done yet? o_O
20:16:19  <V453000> :D that's also good
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20:40:56  <andythenorth> meh
20:44:15  <peter1138> hem
20:44:59  <Pikka> yoyo
20:49:57  <andythenorth> 3/8 then? :(
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20:57:23  <Pikka> that's pretty tiny
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21:14:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:14:22  <andythenorth> it's also untidy :P
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21:30:21  <Pikka> 4/8 makes better integer trains? :P
21:31:20  <andythenorth> yes
21:31:25  <andythenorth> I just need to draw better
21:31:31  <andythenorth> so it looks nice
21:31:38  * andythenorth working on it
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22:28:13  <Pikka> hmm, AI can't buy tiles?
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