Log for #openttd on 21st May 2018:
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01:52:39  <nekomaster> Hello! I have returned after a very long time
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05:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> some part of me wants to scream "OH NO!" on that sentence
05:18:20  <Alberth> if it's a vocal part, it happens :)
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07:12:22  <Alberth> o/
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07:23:46  <Pikka> o/
07:25:41  <__ln__> are they using them wrong:
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07:26:37  <Alberth> stacking trains isn't very simple
07:28:53  <V453000> double layer trains confirmed
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08:12:30  <SpComb> might not be worth engineering trains to be able to drive over other slower trains for overtaking
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08:44:38  <SnoopyBerlin> hello @ all
08:45:17  <Alberth> o
08:45:18  <Alberth> O/
08:45:50  <SnoopyBerlin> hello alberth from sewdwn
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09:12:07  <Xaroth> o7
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09:25:16  <peter1138> Hi
09:37:01  <Pikka> o/
09:41:57  <peter1138> Is it home-time yet?
09:42:08  <LordAro> yes!
09:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a holiday today
09:45:35  <peter1138> Great.
09:46:39  <V453000> :D
11:09:53  <peter1138> Hmm, how do you save a std::bitset? :p
11:12:09  <LordAro> a bit at a time
11:12:24  <peter1138> o_O
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11:24:33  <frosch123> hmm, i guess if the string conversion is too stupid you can go for a combination of >>=, &= and to_ulong
11:24:53  <nielsm> to_ulong or to_ullong seem to be the right thing
11:25:14  <frosch123> i think the point of bitset is to use more than 32 or 64 bits :)
11:27:47  <Eddi|zuHause> BigInt :p
11:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> but honestly, some sort of arbitrary length array?
11:31:09  <nielsm> that's the thing, std::bitset api doesn't have a way (apart from .to_string) to get the values of all bits at once
11:31:12  <frosch123> please discuss with lordaro, when to use std:: stuff and custom :p
11:31:21  <LordAro> D:
11:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what a genious idea it was to use modern features...
11:31:49  <nielsm> unless N <= number of bits in unsigned long long
11:31:56  <frosch123> LordAro: see, all my hopes are on the youth :)
11:32:25  <frosch123> nielsm: std::vector<bool> doesn't have a method either
11:32:35  <nielsm> :(
11:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you need to iterate over it and handle each bit individually
11:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause> iterators are a modern feature, after all
11:35:44  <LordAro> ?
11:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so "use boost"?
11:40:49  <peter1138> Please don't :-)
11:41:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but boost is a modern feature!! :p
11:41:26  <peter1138> Might as well use custom stuff to avoid dependency hell :-)
11:41:26  <LordAro> bad
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12:05:18  <nielsm> hmm random idea, let basesets include a logo file, which then gets rendered on the main menu at the bottom
12:05:35  <nielsm> like the developer + publisher logos in the original
12:05:55  <frosch123> they can just add it to the "D"
12:06:19  <nielsm> sound and music sets can't alter graphics :)
12:07:01  <frosch123> so you want a list of 64 logos at the bottom? for every ai and newgrf?
12:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and add a logo for each activated NewGRF set?
12:07:33  <nielsm> yeah no just the basesets
12:07:48  <frosch123> sounds like a well organised win9x desktop
12:08:30  <frosch123> anyway, bananas/preview screenshots first :)
12:15:18  <peter1138> heh
12:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the news is celebrating the end of railway privatisation in britain. that can't be what actually happened, right?
12:23:22  <LordAro> sort of
12:29:42  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it was a wedding present
12:30:05  <frosch123> some railway tycoon had no heirs and gave the whole company to harry
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13:27:11  <Pikka> bingo bango bongo
13:29:21  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: one franchise has gone back to nationalised, again
13:29:46  <Sacro> To be fair, most of our railways are nationalised, just not by our own nation
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13:57:22  <peter1138> Heh
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15:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: ok, but how is "one franchise faild and had to be bailed out" the same thing as "this is the end of privatisation"?
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15:44:58  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: no idea, it's just the East Coast Main line that's back under the Govt
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15:45:10  <Sacro> Most other lines are run by the dutch, german, french
15:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> just imagine they hadn't dismantled british rail, and they could now make money running trains in other countries?
15:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause> like everyone else does
15:48:16  <LordAro> andythenorth: huh.
15:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> "I'm not sure how I'd handle a bear in my data center" "you close the door and hope someone else finds it" "That is standard troubleshooting procedure"
15:55:39  <LANJesus> well, there's more than one kind of bear mind you
15:55:58  <LANJesus> depending on how you 'handle' it might result in your employmement termination
15:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> errmm... not that kind of bear :p
15:57:50  <LANJesus> okay glad that is cleared up. carry on : D
16:00:34  <Xaroth> andythenorth: what the crap o_O
16:02:10  <Alberth> hi andy, I hacked some BB and pushed, fixing the crash, and doing better randomization / avoiding giving out old goals, close to v1?
16:07:03  <andythenorth> did we not v1 already? o_O
16:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause> v(n+1)?
16:08:05  <andythenorth> we only ever got to RC2 afaict
16:08:10  <andythenorth> definitely v1 then :)
16:10:29  <Pikka> eek
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16:49:20  <Thedarkb1-X40> What's the best way to merge two double track lines into 1 four track line?
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16:55:42  <frosch123> what's there to merge?
16:55:51  <frosch123> merge would imply you have less tracks afterwards
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16:58:50  <nielsm> do you mean like this? (A)
16:58:57  <nielsm> or like this? (B)
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17:10:53  <Wolf01> o/
17:11:03  <Wolf01> So what happened these days?
17:11:21  <__ln__> i ate some gelato
17:14:47  <peter1138> Evening.
17:14:52  <LordAro> __ln__: gelato good.
17:15:29  <peter1138> I got some reduced-price in M&S. It'll probably be good but I've not attacked it yet.
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17:18:40  <peter1138> Ooh, we already have a uint64 used for bitmasks :-)
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17:29:01  <Wolf01> o/
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17:33:50  <peter1138> frosch123, my patches ;)
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17:34:49  <Thedarkb1-X40> frosch123, one line gets more traffic than the other.
17:35:31  <Thedarkb1-X40> and I want traffic evenly distributed between the four?
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17:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if the traffic was already compressed into one line, merging is going to only reduce throughput?
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17:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, let's try something, we call the incoming lines A and B, and the outgoing lines 1 and 2, if A has naturally more traffic than B, i would have A go into both 1 and 2, with 1 being preferred by the pathfinder, and B going only into 1, but with priority. so trains from A go into 1 when no train comes from B, but overflow into 2 when a train is coming from B
17:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not exactly going to be "even"
17:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the other option is, you build a "splitter" from A into 1 and 2, that evenly distributes, and then merge B into 1 and 2 at a later point
17:54:52  <Alberth>
18:01:26  <peter1138> Is this something that programmable signals helps with?
18:02:50  <nielsm> yeah something that flips between two output paths every time a train passes
18:03:09  <Alberth> already solved by coop
18:03:34  <peter1138> "Solved"
18:03:55  <peter1138> It's ugly and uses track for logic.
18:04:01  <nielsm> personally I don't consider "logic trains" a good solution
18:04:08  <nielsm> it's more just a curiosity
18:04:16  <Alberth> it's a transport tycoon game, and not a train signal simulation
18:04:31  <peter1138> Rubbish! It's a model railway simulator!
18:05:08  <nielsm> part of running an efficient transportation company is setting good rules for dispatchers!
18:05:45  <Alberth> people get confused by plain block signals already :)
18:06:02  <peter1138> Yeah, we should've taken them out.
18:06:19  <nielsm> train fever was right to only include path signals
18:06:25  <LANJesus> you're all wrong. it's a sandbox with which i use to reach zen
18:06:48  <LANJesus> hmm i accidentally a grammar. oh well
18:19:13  <andythenorth> what was the original problem? :P
18:19:14  <Wolf01> <peter1138> Is this something that programmable signals helps with? <- I think not, but timetables might help
18:19:35  <Wolf01> Too bad timetables are a pita to setup
18:19:42  <andythenorth> conditional orders?
18:19:58  <Eddi|zuHause> merging 2 lines into 4, or something
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18:22:03  <andythenorth> I build good junctions
18:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> best junction ever
18:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> trains drive on the wrong side
18:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> signals are backwards
18:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> tight curves
18:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> depot in the middle
18:28:18  <peter1138> "Spend just £0.02 more to qualify for free delivery on this order"
18:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i see you follow the coop rules meticulously
18:28:24  <peter1138> Hmm!
18:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: and anything you could add to your order costs more than the shipping you save?
18:28:56  <peter1138> Actually no.
18:29:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: but at least it's TL5!
18:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the company colour isn't even orange!
18:30:35  <andythenorth> oops
18:31:01  <andythenorth> check the PBS signal by the bridge as well
18:31:04  <andythenorth> breaks all rules
18:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> need signals on bridges!
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18:47:06  <V453000> ._.
18:54:44  <V453000> oh yeah that's cause we are using a coop grf pack newgrf
18:55:05  <V453000> nvm
18:59:39  <Wolf01> Shit, derailed :(
19:08:57  <Thedarkb1-X40> Programmable signals would be nice.
19:09:22  <Thedarkb1-X40> My railway line is more or less quad track all the way now.
19:11:25  <V453000> what would you need that for?
19:12:22  <Thedarkb1-X40> Load balancing
19:13:27  <V453000> just make proper mergers with enough choices :)
19:14:58  <V453000> if you are making any kind of load balancing merger anyway with programmable signals or train logic, that means you already have an all to all merger anyway.You don't even need the logic at that point.
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19:23:57  <Thedarkb1-X40> Programmable train orders would be cool.
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19:25:21  <Thedarkb1-X40> and signals that will let certain train groups through but not others.
19:27:18  <Thedarkb1-X40> I hate it when a bunch of trains dependent on the arrival of another cargo clog the station.
19:29:39  <V453000> you can do all of those things actually
19:30:50  <Thedarkb1-X40> Oh, cool.
19:31:01  <Thedarkb1-X40> Can I change the orders of an entire group in one go?
19:31:41  <Thedarkb1-X40> V453000, How?
19:32:12  <V453000> if you have them as shared orders, yes, otherwise not so easy
19:33:08  <V453000> you can change train orders by conditional orders. If you want a train to go through a waypoint and evaluate where it wants to go, you need to use the MEOW/PURR trick available with NUTS train set, though.
19:33:33  <V453000> If your station is clogging because some trains didn't deliver for example oil and goods trains pile up, you can fix that with an overflow easily.
19:33:53  <Thedarkb1-X40> How do I set up shared orders?
19:34:10  <Thedarkb1-X40> Is separate stations the best way of dealing with that though?
19:34:32  <V453000> when cloning trains or setting orders, you ctrl+click the train you want to share orders with
19:34:34  <nielsm> ctrl+click another vehicle that has the orders you want, with "go to" button for orders for the first vehicle
19:34:45  <nielsm> but yeah cloning while holding ctrl is the easiest
19:35:12  <Thedarkb1-X40> I wish that was the default......
19:35:20  <Thedarkb1-X40> I have 24 orders to change.
19:35:29  <V453000> that would probably be quite confusing for people
19:35:55  <V453000> also you can still create the link just by changing the orders of already existing trains, you'll just have to do it for each of them manually
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19:45:18  <Thedarkb1-X40> bleh implicit orders.
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20:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you can set nonstop as default, and never deal with implicit orders
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20:25:19  <supermop_work> +1 to eddi
20:25:31  <supermop_work> implicit orders are worthless
20:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> they're alright, but they don't play well with trains randomly going to depot
20:26:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you're bothering with depot orders, might as well just do all the order stuff anyway
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20:33:20  <Thedarkb1-X40> How do I get rid of the ones I have.
20:33:26  <Thedarkb1-X40> and don't say delete them all by hand.
20:33:58  <nielsm> implicit orders?
20:34:23  <nielsm> they disappear automatically
20:34:51  <Thedarkb1-X40> Ah, I thought that.
20:35:27  <nielsm> if order 1 is "stop at fenfingville" and order 2 is "stop at barlingburg", and there is an implicit "stop at tulsing" between, if the train goes from 1 to 2 without hitting tulsing that order disappears
20:37:05  <nielsm> implicit orders happen because they're a requirement for the cargodist feature to work, every stop has to be mapped out for a functioning cargo flow graph to be built
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20:37:57  <nielsm> maybe there could be an option to "hide implicit orders", with "never", "if all cargodist options are disabled", "always", as possible settings
20:56:58  <andythenorth> bye
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21:23:36  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:07:35  <peter1138> No.
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22:25:46  <Pikka> why not?
22:32:43  <LordAro> but what if?
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22:40:13  <peter1138> So there's now a patch somewhere for 64 cargo types ;p
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23:56:35  <pjpe>   what does foobar's tram tracks do over vanilla tram tracks?
23:56:52  <pjpe> didn't see much of a difference trying it out, and don't know if i picked it up a decade ago when things were different or not

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