Log for #openttd on 22nd May 2018:
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04:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: if the tram track grf is more than a year old, it's visual only, it doesn't "do" anything different. and any non-visual stuff only works in the "NRT" branch, that hasn't been merged yet as fas as i am informed
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07:11:08  <peter1138> andythenorth, you'll like this one...
07:15:07  <andythenorth> lawks
07:15:13  <andythenorth> well that wrecks FIRS :o
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07:18:27  <peter1138> :p
07:18:50  <peter1138> You'll never know when to stop!
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07:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> for (CargoID i = 0; i < num_cargo; i++) { <-- does that break if num_cargo is changed mid-game?
07:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ah no, it's in saveload code
07:33:48  <andythenorth> well FIRS Extreme just got 'interesting'
07:34:06  <andythenorth> time to start FIRS v4
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07:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but with 64 cargos you now need 128 industries (one producer and one consumer each) :p
07:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> +
07:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> how typical... sometimes the keyboad slips away from me, and when i try to grab it, i press + and enter on numpad
07:46:11  <andythenorth> *lots* of cargos is kind of counter for FIRS Extreme
07:46:26  <andythenorth> one of the key points of Extreme seems to be 'everything goes everywhere'
07:46:37  <andythenorth> the graph for some cargos have a lot of nodes
07:46:56  <andythenorth> more cargos => fewer nodes per cargo
07:50:57  <V453000> oh god
07:51:17  <andythenorth> V453000: NEW INDUSTRY SET
07:51:40  <andythenorth> omg, FIRSYETI
07:51:44  <andythenorth> make 50% each
07:51:48  <andythenorth> unleash madness
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07:53:29  <V453000> :D
07:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you could just try to load both FIRS and YETI at the same time :p
07:53:38  <V453000> I'm waiting for the implementation :?
07:53:39  <V453000> :>
07:57:58  <andythenorth> not even sure I can think of 64 cargos
07:58:04  <andythenorth> 'big yeti'
07:58:07  <andythenorth> 'small yeti'
07:58:08  <andythenorth> etc
08:01:10  <andythenorth> 68 cargos here :P
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08:01:56  <V453000> the world is lost
08:02:10  <V453000> meanwhile I'm making an excessively complicated rendering for treinz :D
08:02:36  <Arveen> TRAINZ, MEEP MEEP !!!
08:10:27  <peter1138> See, there's absolutely no reason to add that commit ;p
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08:12:21  <andythenorth> there's absolutely no reason to recreate a game from 1994 :P
08:12:52  <andythenorth> peter1138: GarryG will make use of 64
08:14:54  <peter1138> Wait, 68 cargo types? Shit.
08:15:00  <peter1138> Is there a uint128_t? :p
08:15:38  <andythenorth> don't do it :P
08:15:46  <andythenorth> I *hate* drawing cargo icons
08:15:49  <peter1138> :-)
08:16:03  <peter1138> Take generic pile of minerals -> recolour -> done.
08:16:15  <andythenorth> that works
08:16:17  <V453000> yeah cargo icons are fucking tough
08:16:21  <V453000> what is that, 8x8px max?
08:16:22  <andythenorth> not so much for 'vehicle parts'
08:16:28  <peter1138> V453000, 4x zoom!
08:16:38  <peter1138> 32x32, it's like an icon.
08:16:48  <peter1138> Except nobody uses 4x gui zoom. Except andythenorth.
08:16:52  <andythenorth> my favourite
08:16:56  <andythenorth> it's animated :P
08:17:04  <andythenorth> but not for me, because full animation is broken
08:17:13  <peter1138> It's not broken.
08:17:19  <andythenorth> oops
08:17:26  <andythenorth> my computer is broken for full animation
08:17:31  <andythenorth> ^ more accurate
08:17:33  <V453000> gui zoom is probably only for wtf-high-dpi displays, where it perceptively is as small as 8x8 on a normal display :P
08:17:41  <andythenorth> 2x GUI zoom is mandatory :P
08:17:41  <peter1138> 32bpp-optimized doesn't support it, but there are 32bpp blitters that support animation.
08:18:00  <andythenorth> it's a trade off
08:18:04  <andythenorth> I can have animation, or frame rate
08:18:18  <peter1138> 32bpp-sse4-anim is the one to use on a relatively not-ancient PC.
08:19:34  <peter1138> Hmm, we only auto-switch to 32bpp-anim.
08:19:43  <peter1138> Perhaps we should try 32bpp-sse4-anim first.
08:19:50  * andythenorth wonders how to set blitter
08:19:56  <andythenorth> wiki says "-b32bpp-sse4-anim"
08:20:00  <andythenorth> but that doesn't work
08:20:09  <peter1138> -b 32bpp-sse4-anim
08:20:15  <V453000> 32bpp-sse4-anim seems to work for me
08:20:30  <peter1138> If it's a core2duo it won't work.
08:20:37  <peter1138> 32bpp-anim should though.
08:22:44  <andythenorth> well I set sse4
08:22:49  <andythenorth> but still failing
08:23:56  <andythenorth> this JGR patch works better for me, but frosch said I was confused
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08:29:28  <peter1138> What does it look like? :P
08:29:49  <andythenorth> looks fine, but frame rate is lower
08:29:59  <andythenorth> and FFWD is very sluggish/jerky
08:30:05  <peter1138> Oh. THought you said full animation is broken?
08:30:14  <andythenorth> no my computer is broken for full animation
08:30:30  <peter1138> Okay, but how so?
08:30:48  <peter1138> Is it just that it is slower?
08:30:51  <andythenorth> yes
08:31:11  <peter1138> Er...
08:31:18  <peter1138> You know that's totally normal?
08:31:44  <andythenorth> it changed in hardware or software 4-5 years ago
08:31:56  <andythenorth> I've been given various explanations
08:32:08  <andythenorth> maybe Apple dropped legacy quickdraw APIs
08:32:22  <andythenorth> or something changed in CPU bandwidth
08:32:28  <peter1138> 8bpp was faster because openttd didn't have to deal with it.
08:33:06  <peter1138> But animation with 32bpp is always slower.
08:33:33  <andythenorth> I was told to use 32bpp because it's faster
08:33:47  <andythenorth> it's a classic FUD situation :)
08:34:02  <peter1138> Well
08:34:09  <peter1138> I'm probably wrong ;-)
08:34:19  <peter1138> I remember running OpenTTD in XGA mode. That was SUPERFAST.
08:34:26  <peter1138> Only issue is you needed to run the game as root. Hah
08:34:35  <peter1138> That actually switched X11 to 8bpp mode.
08:34:50  <peter1138> That was in the days I ran 800x600 on a CRT though.
08:35:41  <peter1138> I'm hopeful that michi_cc's OpenGL patch can be revived (using modern OpenGL where feasible) as this should allow palette animation to be done by the GPU.
08:36:05  <andythenorth> the SSE2 patch from JGR is about 10% faster
08:36:52  <andythenorth> judged by timing trains going round in a circle :P
08:38:29  <peter1138> Ok. So we should add it. It's also usable for older CPUs.
08:38:40  <peter1138> We should also ditch the -simple blitters, probably.
08:38:58  <peter1138> Hmm, I don't think my RGB company colours patch works with these SSE blitters though.
08:39:28  <peter1138> Hmm, actually why wouldn't it? It's just a palette. I've forgotten how it works :-)
08:40:29  <LordAro> peter1138: XGA mode?
08:40:47  <V453000> :)
08:41:37  <peter1138> May have been DGA.
08:42:01  <LordAro> peter1138: DGA mode?
08:42:02  <LordAro> :p
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09:10:54  <peter1138> LordAro, direct graphics access. It literally let you write directly to the video frame buffer.
09:10:59  <peter1138> Hence root.
09:11:30  <peter1138> It's no longer supported since modern graphics cards don't expose that stuff any more, due to the memory sizes involved.
09:11:50  <LordAro> ah right
09:12:15  <peter1138> It switched X11 to 8bpp, so palette animation was actual palette animation.
09:12:29  <peter1138> So zero performance cost.
09:13:34  <peter1138> "The graphics component of XFree86-DGA is not supported because it requires a CPU mapping of framebuffer memory. As graphics cards ship with increasing quantities of video memory, the NVIDIA X driver has had to switch to a more dynamic memory mapping scheme that is incompatible with DGA. Furthermore, DGA does not cooperate with other graphics rendering libraries such as Xlib and OpenGL because it
09:13:40  <peter1138> accesses GPU resources directly."
09:13:59  <peter1138> Progress! ;)
09:14:50  <andythenorth> progress :P
09:18:11  <peter1138> Speaking of progress... I keep buying clothes in medium... This is odd.
09:19:04  <andythenorth> cyclismo
09:19:54  <peter1138> One of my cycling tops is XXXL. It's rather long and loose now. Just about okay for MTBing, but I should probably ditch it.
09:21:33  <V453000> is that nvidia 10xx series or nvidia titan X series drivers?
09:21:49  <peter1138> Err?
09:21:59  <V453000> nvidia X driver
09:22:09  <peter1138> Wayyy before them.
09:22:13  <V453000> oh :)
09:22:19  <V453000> was wondering
09:22:27  <peter1138> But isn't the driver the same for them?
09:22:34  <V453000> nope
09:23:09  <V453000> at least on their driver site they are different, and there were no titan x drivers for a while which would be compatible with linux
09:23:26  <peter1138> I still have a 670 :(
09:23:35  <peter1138> It's a bit shit for VR but passable.
09:25:27  <V453000> well a gpu is my main rendering thing so... :)
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10:34:15  <andythenorth> wonder if an eGPU can drive my laptop screen :P
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11:57:46  <peter1138> A what now?
11:59:09  <andythenorth> GPU in a box, with thunderbolt cables
11:59:17  <peter1138> O
11:59:24  <peter1138> Maybe.
11:59:52  <peter1138> Let's look at issues.
11:59:54  <peter1138> Okay, I looked.
11:59:55  <andythenorth> let's
12:00:53  <peter1138> #6677 Well now.
12:01:59  <peter1138> #986 ... kinda old.
12:14:07  <__ln__> i think i have a solution for #4449, but dunno about peter's idea of a tristate toggle.
12:19:08  <andythenorth> I wanted to close 6677 but TB said no, it's a valid bug
12:19:50  <peter1138> Does anyone use actual-fullscreen these days?
12:19:54  <andythenorth> not me
12:20:08  <andythenorth> sample size: 1; results 100% no-one
12:20:15  <andythenorth> valid
12:23:56  <peter1138>
12:24:38  <andythenorth> child #1 uses fullscreen
12:24:58  <andythenorth> mostly because it hides the endless popups about google products trying to update themselves
12:25:02  <peter1138> o_O
12:25:18  <andythenorth> he has a locked down account with limited network access
12:25:32  <peter1138> I use windowed mode, cos multiple screens.
12:25:34  <andythenorth> which triggers constant warnings about google updaters that I can't suppress
12:25:46  <andythenorth> I hate modern computing :|
12:25:54  <__ln__> despite darkvater's recent reappearance, is it time to re-evaluate the Won't implement of #69?
12:26:24  <peter1138> Hurr hurr hurr you said 69
12:26:39  <__ln__> no pun intended
12:26:46  <peter1138> But no. We won't.
12:27:03  <andythenorth> did I just stray into a Beavis & Butthead episode :o
12:28:49  <__ln__> peter1138: you won't re-evaluate or you won't implement?
12:28:57  <peter1138> Either.
12:29:20  <peter1138> Unless it was different in original TTD.
12:29:49  * andythenorth evaluates sitting outside in the sun
12:29:52  <andythenorth> basically fine
12:30:07  <peter1138> Do it.
12:30:12  <peter1138> Then you don't have to consider 64 cargo types.
12:30:28  <peter1138>
12:30:28  <peter1138> Yay
12:31:08  <andythenorth> laptops work outside :P
12:31:21  <peter1138> Yup, only one earring in TTD.
12:33:16  <__ln__> That's right. Well, that's one way to be different.
12:34:02  <V453000> dam
12:34:44  <__ln__> Also I noticed the face generation algorithm doesn't match requirements of the 2010s. There are only caucasian and african american faces.
12:35:24  <peter1138> Who even bothers to look at the face? :S
12:38:57  <andythenorth> not me
12:39:02  <andythenorth> I am too busy looking at trains
12:39:30  <andythenorth> I thought there was a ticket about the face diversity somewhere
12:39:57  <peter1138> Thing is, it is the way it is because these are graphics in the original base set.
12:40:25  <peter1138> And it's so inconsequential to gameplay, there's no need to change it.
12:40:29  <andythenorth> pixel-art for specific races is a potential minefield
12:40:32  <andythenorth> I wouldn't touch it :P
12:40:34  <peter1138> Even the "advanced" editor is pointless.
12:40:58  <V453000> I actually wanted to make a YETI faces replacement
12:41:06  <V453000> but yeah I wanted to make many things
12:41:10  <peter1138> It's not like you've got a set of photographs and you can just add more, or edit the existing ones.
12:41:27  <peter1138> It's built up out of parts like an identifit.
12:41:30  <andythenorth> I just try to make Burt Reynolds
12:41:36  <peter1138> Heh
12:41:45  <andythenorth> it's basically that kids game 'Guess Who' or so
12:41:52  <andythenorth> which has been updated for diversity
12:41:58  <andythenorth> but eh, they have resources to do that
12:48:21  <V453000> doesn't ttd have all them races?
12:48:27  <V453000> ish?
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12:49:27  <andythenorth> it has 'european' and 'african'
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12:50:05  <andythenorth> so for example, no east asian, no south asian
12:50:17  <andythenorth> no native american, inuits etc
12:51:04  <andythenorth> I can't see us fixing that, it's work, and doing it wrong is stupid and offensive
12:52:47  <V453000> I find it irrelevant
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12:57:07  <andythenorth> means, e.g. my kids can't make a face that looks like them
12:57:13  <andythenorth> I'm not sure they care right now
12:58:04  <__ln__> there are also only two genders to choose from in the dialog
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12:58:31  <andythenorth> just swap it all to lego-people style :P
12:58:53  <__ln__> is that offensive towards lego-people?
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12:59:07  <__ln__> or bjarni
12:59:16  <andythenorth> hmm chin 1 has some kind of bug
12:59:27  <andythenorth> in 'male, european'
13:00:54  <peter1138> TTD or OGFX?
13:01:02  <andythenorth> TTD
13:01:09  <andythenorth> it's out of place I think
13:01:16  <andythenorth> it's also the same as the female chin
13:01:25  <andythenorth> that might be intended
13:01:28  <peter1138> Quick, let's pull the game. Literally unplayable.
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13:01:44  <FLHerne> Can the face sprites be replaced by NewGRF?
13:01:53  <FLHerne> I don't suppose the labels can
13:02:04  <peter1138> Yes, any sprite can be replaced.
13:02:55  <FLHerne> Hm
13:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a way for NewGRF to change original TTD strings, but they have to be whitelisted and mapped to OTTD strings
13:03:19  <FLHerne> I was thinking you could do it with a static newgrf so every player can have their own preferred face
13:03:29  <FLHerne> But everyone else would then see it differently
13:03:39  <FLHerne> (if anyone looked at them at all, ever....)
13:03:48  <peter1138> static newgrfs are a pain anyway.
13:04:02  <peter1138> As evidenced by there not being a UI for it.
13:04:23  <peter1138> FLHerne, let's just add webcam support :p
13:04:55  <andythenorth> gravatar :P
13:05:00  <peter1138> Heh
13:05:24  <andythenorth> let's not accidentally add chat roulette to ottd
13:06:10  <__ln__> let's add mandatory facebook login, which also solves the face issue.
13:07:24  <peter1138> GOOD IDEA
13:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and who pays the lawyer for the GDPR-related stuff?
13:16:33  <__ln__> the product manager
13:21:41  * andythenorth trying to draw happy train
13:21:54  <andythenorth> maybe an advanced face maker for that?
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13:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what zoomlevel would that be?
13:49:39  <andythenorth> well not 1x :P
13:49:45  <andythenorth> which is what I'm drawing for :P
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14:09:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ooh, those are the first trains I can remember travelling on
14:10:34  <FLHerne> I was always excited to see if my train was going to have a smile
14:10:44  <FLHerne> (they hadn't retrofitted them all yet)
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15:06:39  <peter1138> Oh... waterways NRT :p
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15:07:47  <peter1138> Hi
15:10:45  <frosch123> moi
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17:01:05  <andythenorth> 41% Iron Horse
17:01:15  <andythenorth> just 115 trains left to draw :P
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17:11:08  <Wolf01> o/
17:14:38  <andythenorth> hi Wolf01
17:14:51  <andythenorth> did anyone merge NRT yet? o_O
17:14:55  <andythenorth> I wasn't looking
17:15:08  <Wolf01> Dunno, I'm busy with trains
17:18:38  <LordAro> andythenorth: needs a PR before it can be merged :p
17:20:36  <andythenorth> o_O
17:20:47  <andythenorth> it needs peter1138 to merge Wolf01's gist to his fork :P
17:20:58  <andythenorth> then I can make a PR for OpenTTD repo :P
17:21:06  <andythenorth> or i could make a fork :P
17:22:15  <nielsm> making a fork with the changes in on github is def. the first step
17:23:13  <Wolf01> Or rebase the already forked one
17:23:14  <nielsm> but with the current pace of merging PRs don't expect it to happen within this year? :(
17:23:40  <LordAro> justdoit.gif
17:24:30  <Wolf01> nielsm: we have been working on it for about 2 years, one more won't be a problem
17:32:06  <Wolf01> heh, the same approach I wanted to use for my new daylength
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17:38:40  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I've seen the leak of the new bugatti... It doesn't convince me
17:41:31  <andythenorth> none of the big cars convince me :)
17:41:41  <andythenorth> I guess I'm not target audience
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17:42:43  <Wolf01> I'm the right target audience for every big technic
17:42:52  <peter1138> Hi
17:43:30  <andythenorth> Eurobricks Chiron thread: "Omg, I am little bit dissapointed somehow."
17:43:32  <andythenorth> expected
17:44:03  <Wolf01> But I got a burn with the porsche, I wait EB to destroy it before thinking about buying
17:44:35  <Wolf01> Lol, the same reaction I had on the group where I found the picture
17:44:58  <peter1138> Right, NRT.
17:47:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ?
17:47:18  <andythenorth> "blah blah car"
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17:52:56  <peter1138> Oh, I forgot I already wrote the patch to increase NRT to 64 road types.
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17:59:04  <andythenorth> :P
18:11:13  <peter1138> Ah yes, that rebase
18:12:17  <andythenorth> one big patch :P
18:12:22  <andythenorth> TB said it's fine :P
18:13:38  <peter1138> It's merging the images which is a pain.
18:13:49  <peter1138> That's why I asked if maybe we should just leave them separate :p
18:14:01  <peter1138> Separate file I mean.
18:14:16  <andythenorth> not all in openttdgui.png?
18:14:23  <peter1138> Yeah, merging images sucks
18:14:26  <andythenorth> I can do it
18:14:30  <andythenorth> it's vanilla work for me
18:14:32  <peter1138> Well
18:14:35  <andythenorth> I'd have to fork your fork though
18:15:08  <peter1138> My issue last time I tried was that rebase doesn't leave me with both parts, unlike with text changes.
18:15:24  <andythenorth> yeah I have to make foo.png.orig or whatever
18:15:29  <andythenorth> then manually reconcile
18:15:33  <peter1138> But I have added your gist
18:17:25  <andythenorth> meh, I can't figure out how to fork the fork
18:17:35  <peter1138> :-)
18:17:46  <peter1138> I'm rebasing right now at the moment so it'd be pointless
18:17:48  <andythenorth> github has 'where shall we fork this to?' and then tells me I already have forks
18:18:07  <andythenorth> i might just fix the pngs when you've rebased, and paste them somewhere :P
18:22:56  <peter1138> I've fixed them
18:23:04  <peter1138> Not hard.
18:26:42  <andythenorth> :)
18:28:32  <peter1138> Rebuilding nrt-64 ;)
18:30:24  <peter1138>
18:30:25  <peter1138> ;p
18:30:41  <peter1138> Just realised that / in branches are best not used like that :p
18:31:43  <peter1138> Hmm, I think the nrt rebase lost the savegame update, oops.
18:31:48  <peter1138> Don't use what I pushed :p
18:35:29  <andythenorth> :)
18:37:33  <peter1138> kk
18:37:36  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> "blah blah car" <- yeah, only shape, I'll wait to see the mechanic
18:38:11  <peter1138> Didn't bother bumping the savegame for the 64-roadtypes version.
18:38:45  <peter1138> If we ever had concensus on "we should increase that limit" then it would make sense to do it before NRT, so NRT doesn't have a pointless change.
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18:39:38  <Wolf01> We didn't bother to bump it even for 1.7
18:40:35  <peter1138> Well if nothing changed then it's not strictly necessary
18:40:52  <andythenorth> just ship 64 :P
18:40:58  <andythenorth> it's "enough"
18:41:07  <Wolf01> It changed that trunk saves were not converted the right way then :P
18:41:12  <peter1138> Eh, I mean increase from 16 to 64.
18:41:49  <peter1138> Oh I misunderstood you wolf.
18:42:02  <peter1138> andythenorth, i would never condone going above 64 ;)
18:42:21  <peter1138> Someone would want to, right? :S
18:42:25  <Wolf01> If one asks for more than 64 roadtypes, a ban is mandatory
18:44:36  <andythenorth> it's enough
18:45:10  <V453000> well, before I could make the rendering of my new train actually work I got a deadline at work :D
18:45:12  <V453000> G_G
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18:45:17  <V453000> :D
18:45:38  <andythenorth> :o
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18:45:59  <Wolf01> New gui tileset?
18:46:39  <Wolf01> Or are you going out of alpha and you must finish all the graphics in hd?
18:50:15  <Wolf01> BTW, I like the glowing effect of the new ui
18:50:34  <V453000> thanks :) Albert would be happy to hear that
18:50:46  <V453000> Wolf01: basically we want MANY things, but there is ~TIME :D
18:56:54  <peter1138> Are they new road type labels?
18:57:59  <Thedarkb-X40> Do you people play with 90° turns on or off?
18:58:24  <peter1138> Off for trains.
18:58:57  <Wolf01> Me too
18:59:37  <andythenorth> I allow 90º
18:59:47  <andythenorth> I used to not, for realism
19:00:00  <andythenorth> but then...**** that
19:00:08  <Wolf01> I don't because they look stupid
19:00:10  <peter1138> I dislike the way it lets trains misuse X crossings :p
19:00:56  <andythenorth> I decided it's just a game ;p
19:01:00  <V453000> as peter1138 said
19:01:10  <V453000> the shit they do in X crossings is awful
19:01:25  <Wolf01> Also, speaking of trains, I have a yard to scramble
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19:37:47  <peter1138> Hmm
19:40:17  <LordAro> mmH
19:57:50  <Wolf01> Ok, finished this shunting session, it was nice
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21:00:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:14:37  <Thedarkb1> I hate how the x train is lost thing works.
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21:41:44  <V453000> you hate a lot of things don't you :)
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22:49:38  <Thedarkb-X40> What year do oil rigs start appearing/
22:49:48  <Thedarkb-X40> I know it's in the 70s/80s, but like, when exactly?
22:55:55  <Thedarkb-X40> V453000, I'm an irritable little fuck. :P
22:56:23  <Supercheese>
22:56:25  <Supercheese> 1960
22:56:54  <Thedarkb-X40> Hm
22:57:05  <Thedarkb-X40> FIRS might be postponing them or something??
22:59:26  <Thedarkb-X40> Nah, I just have 4 on the map that I hadn't seen yet
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23:04:22  <Supercheese> oh FIRS
23:04:27  <Supercheese> it might be different
23:05:36  <Supercheese>
23:05:41  <Supercheese> intro_year=1967
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