Log for #openttd on 23rd May 2018:
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05:58:46  <andythenorth> o/
06:13:23  <peter1138> Yes you
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06:15:03  <peter1138> And him
06:25:57  <andythenorth> such PRs
06:26:29  <peter1138> Ah yes, let's look.
06:26:59  <peter1138> I did request that one ;)
06:27:13  <peter1138> 18 files!
06:27:21  <peter1138> Oh yeah, projects :S
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06:59:34  <andythenorth> Pikka: such sprites? o_O
06:59:49  <Pikka> very?
07:00:00  <Pikka> which?
07:00:35  <andythenorth> UKRS 9
07:00:43  <andythenorth> is it done? o_O
07:01:16  <Pikka> partially?
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07:01:43  <Pikka> 11 locos done-ish?
07:06:56  <andythenorth> which one is the best?
07:06:57  <andythenorth> o_O
07:10:17  <Pikka> ummmm
07:10:44  <Pikka> must be the 37, which I haven't done yet
07:10:55  <andythenorth> I have to draw three 37s
07:11:07  <Pikka> do people like the running sounds in UKRS2, or are they just annoying?
07:11:48  <andythenorth> can't remember :)
07:11:50  <andythenorth> do a poll
07:12:45  <Pikka> I'm not sure if I like them, or if they're just annoying.
07:13:46  <andythenorth> I'd leave them out
07:14:03  <andythenorth> but I tend to mute sounds anyway
07:14:09  <andythenorth> due to the crossing bells problem
07:18:10  <andythenorth> should I industry sounds in FIRS?
07:21:44  <Pikka> only if they're subtle and constant-ish.
07:22:08  <Pikka> the default TTD industry sounds are almost worse than the crossing bells
07:22:18  <andythenorth> the sawmill is the other reason I mute sounds :P
07:22:37  <andythenorth> and then what do industries really sound like anyway?
07:23:57  <Pikka> I remember all the complaints I got about random explosion sounds from quarries :D
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07:34:16  <V453000> :DDD
07:35:03  <V453000> sounds in UKRS2 felt quite weird to me Pikka, but that might be just because the rest of the game is mostly silent
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07:48:50  <andythenorth> so 64 cargos then
07:49:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: ^ multiple regearing cargos? o_O
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08:15:22  <peter1138> 64 cargos are impossible!
08:16:24  <andythenorth> 128 cargos!
08:19:26  <peter1138> ;(
08:19:33  <peter1138> uint128 yes.
08:19:46  <peter1138> To go beyond 64 I need to figure out how to save that bitsit type.
08:19:52  <peter1138> bitset
08:21:21  <LordAro> __uint128_t
08:27:43  <peter1138> As it is, 64 types is probably shitty on 32 bit computers.
08:28:09  <andythenorth> 'version 2'
08:28:14  <andythenorth> 'we dropped 32 bit'
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08:31:12  <peter1138> :-)
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08:42:25  <peter1138> TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy.
08:42:45  <LordAro> ^
08:43:31  <peter1138> Maybe it was when it was all being set up but it's died down a bit now.
09:05:04  <peter1138> Hmm, although it hasn't twigged yet.
09:18:42  <peter1138> Still.
09:19:42  <peter1138> andythenorth, so...
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09:23:12  <andythenorth> o_O
09:23:49  <peter1138> O_o what?
09:24:59  <LordAro> 0_0
09:40:00  <peter1138> Is it broken?
09:42:38  <andythenorth> we need notifications in the channel :P
09:43:03  <andythenorth> also I have too many openttd shells :P
09:43:11  <peter1138> I mean, the notice channel didn't get a notification either.
09:43:23  <andythenorth> testing it now
09:43:43  <andythenorth> oh hang on, that sse4 blitter is set in my config :P
09:44:19  * andythenorth tries again
09:46:09  <peter1138> It'll be no different I bet ;p
09:46:36  <andythenorth> I think frosch tried to explain to me that the speedup I saw was due to the likely/unlikely patch
09:47:00  <peter1138> That affects pipelining I guess.
09:48:12  <LordAro> that's a railtype, right?
09:48:22  <peter1138> Not yet, we don't have enough types.
09:48:38  <LordAro> :p
09:50:40  <andythenorth> nope SSE is roughly twice as fast as 1.8.0-RC1 for a simple test
09:50:55  <andythenorth> this is in FFW
09:51:25  <andythenorth> trains going round a loop take 11s in 1.8.0-RC1 on FFWD, full animation
09:51:33  <andythenorth> 5s in latest trunk
09:51:52  <peter1138> \/
09:51:59  <peter1138> Oh, my head fell off.
09:52:03  <andythenorth> shock
09:52:04  <peter1138>                                                                             o
09:52:09  <peter1138> Ah, it's over there.
09:52:10  <LordAro> nice
09:58:42  <andythenorth> so in a bigger game, full animation is still noticeably slower
09:58:47  <andythenorth> but it's markedly better
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10:01:21  <peter1138> Don't worry, we'll slow it all down again with 64 railtypes.
10:01:41  <andythenorth> awesome
10:07:12  <peter1138> 32768x32768 map?
10:07:36  <peter1138> That's an extra 2GB!
10:09:25  <andythenorth> yuck
10:09:55  <peter1138> Just for railtypes!
10:10:26  <peter1138>
10:10:32  <peter1138> Let's resurrect that.
10:11:19  <peter1138> It's almost brilliant.
10:11:27  <andythenorth> lol
10:11:29  <andythenorth> etc
10:11:38  <andythenorth> n map layers?
10:11:43  <andythenorth> and offsets into them?
10:11:56  <V453000> I remember seeing that video :)
10:11:58  <andythenorth> or one giant wrap around?
10:12:08  <peter1138> Don't know how it works.
10:12:13  <__ln__> wat, there's actually code for underground rails
10:12:15  <peter1138> r11060. Kinda old.
10:12:16  <andythenorth> hmm
10:12:28  <andythenorth> eh
10:12:31  <peter1138> It is at least post-c++.
10:12:37  <andythenorth> we could do 3D with the current map no?
10:12:44  <peter1138> That is.
10:13:01  <andythenorth> slice a 512x512 into 4 layers of 256x256
10:13:01  <peter1138> I'm not sure how it extends the map.
10:13:04  <andythenorth> and use offsets
10:13:10  <peter1138> Oh,well, not really :S
10:13:22  <andythenorth> 'simples'
10:13:26  <peter1138> :-)
10:13:36  <andythenorth> "it's just a drawing problem"
10:13:54  <andythenorth> oh you can't connect between layers in my plan :)
10:14:02  <andythenorth> everything is planar
10:14:13  <peter1138> Haha
10:14:20  <andythenorth>
10:14:48  <andythenorth> actually it was flatland I wanted, not poincare
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10:15:51  <peter1138> Hmm, TileIndex becomes 64 bit with this patch. So maybe you aren't far off :p
10:36:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking maybe 1 underground layer and one above ground layer, that follow the landscaping, and the rest is still done by ordinary wormhole tunnels?
10:42:58  <peter1138> Limitation disturbs me very sprites.
10:44:01  <Sacro> Goes throw out limitation?
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10:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> somebody set up us the bomb
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11:03:57  <andythenorth> 90º tunnels
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11:05:13  <__ln__> andythenorth: surely you mean °, not º
11:05:22  <andythenorth> yes
11:05:47  <andythenorth> I just haven't bothered to learn the key combo for deg
11:05:59  <andythenorth> and someone here always corrects it :P
11:06:13  <__ln__> what a great service
11:07:11  <__ln__> do you regularly write text in spanish, or why do you have º in the first place?
11:09:28  <V453000> LOL
11:12:34  <peter1138> Mac.
11:13:09  <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah, that thread is why I dug up SmatZ's stuff.
11:13:50  <andythenorth> just do 90 deg with a new building tool :P
11:14:02  <peter1138> acs121 is definitely hyping up the NEW MAP ARRAY
11:14:04  <andythenorth> oh, we'd need both start and end tiles?
11:14:46  <andythenorth> acs121 is a remarkable source of nearly-facts
11:14:53  <andythenorth> or as I call them, 'wrongs'
11:48:47  <V453000> rekt
12:36:12  <andythenorth> such Pikka
12:36:23  <andythenorth> should I do a GWR railcar with the silly slopes?
12:36:30  <andythenorth> or make a fake flat face one?
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12:44:29  <V453000> cheese or death
12:46:25  <peter1138> FUCK SAKE
12:46:33  <peter1138> Made a mug of tea, burnt mouth :(
12:50:20  <andythenorth> oops
12:50:24  * andythenorth killed a fly
12:50:38  <peter1138> Was it by swallowing?
12:51:11  <andythenorth> nope
12:51:17  <andythenorth> V453000: cheese train
12:51:37  <V453000> I agree, iz train
13:01:21  <andythenorth> don't want to draw bloody slopes :)
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13:03:44  <peter1138> Draw vehicles ON slopes!
13:03:59  <V453000> heh
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13:06:51  <andythenorth> urgh
13:06:58  * andythenorth having war with flies
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13:08:38  <andythenorth> @seen supermop
13:08:39  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 8 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <supermop> yo
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13:28:43  <Pikka> the fancy noses are fancy though
13:29:08  <Pikka> such bananarama
13:30:22  <andythenorth> I'm doing this one
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13:30:29  <andythenorth> Horse add on can do a banana
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13:34:26  <Alberth> o/
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15:28:57  <andythenorth> train matches field
15:30:52  <Alberth> nice :)
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16:24:39  <peter1138> Well now...
16:26:28  <peter1138> What else I have patches for...
16:28:11  <andythenorth> livery UI
16:28:19  <peter1138> Ah yes.
16:28:21  <andythenorth> and Alberth is here, so the window might get fixed
16:29:44  <Alberth> oh dear :)
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16:30:45  <nielsm> hmm should I revive/update this patch?
16:30:52  <nielsm> never really got any feedback on it at all
16:31:40  <andythenorth> nielsm: that's 'utilisation'? o_O
16:31:41  <andythenorth> interesting
16:31:45  <andythenorth> isn't that on groups now?
16:31:58  <nielsm> I don't think it's quite the same thing
16:32:14  <nielsm> I didn't see anything that measured distance travelled and kept statistics on it
16:32:32  <andythenorth> I think the groups thing is just load %?
16:32:39  <andythenorth> which confused people here
16:32:42  <nielsm> I think "utilisation" on a group is mostly just the average load percentage of the vehicles
16:33:11  <nielsm> this one is actually how much of the time throughout a year the vehicle has run fully loaded, more or less
16:33:32  <andythenorth> average load % should always be ~40% or ~100% (bi-directional cargo) so it's a useless number :)
16:33:35  <nielsm> and also measures (or can measure) how much the vehicle is sitting idle
16:34:10  <nielsm> penalizing vehicles waiting for full load in a station without receiving cargo
16:34:28  <nielsm> meaning if you have too many vehicles on a route, the total efficiency drops
16:34:31  <andythenorth> yeah this sounds like actual utilisation
16:35:03  <andythenorth> miles travelled / cargo ton miles travelled
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16:36:33  <andythenorth> peter1138: there's some kind of "NRT" branch kicking around
16:36:43  <andythenorth> I think it adds 64 road and tram types to ottd
16:36:45  <andythenorth> not sure
16:37:59  <peter1138>
16:38:04  <peter1138> I already did that, you know./
16:38:34  <andythenorth> I didn't see it in OpenTTD pull requests :)
16:42:01  <peter1138> I wouldn't dare to assume I'd be allowed to 2 bytes the map array :p
16:45:40  <andythenorth> pull request finds out
16:45:46  <andythenorth> roll the dice, might come up 6
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16:47:55  <nielsm> hmm I hope I remember how to do this rebase onto thing
16:49:40  <andythenorth> shame I can't ctrl-click articulated vehicles :P
16:50:05  * andythenorth thinks it should be an available option
16:50:30  <LordAro> nielsm: rebase onto? you shouldn't need that unless it's a branch for the old git repo
16:50:53  <peter1138> ^
16:51:02  <peter1138> I can't ctrl-click your player face
16:51:09  <nielsm> yes it's from the old repo :)
16:51:14  <peter1138> We should allow that.
16:51:22  <peter1138> Then you could have the earring on either side.
16:51:35  <andythenorth> I can ctrl-click the player face
16:51:38  <andythenorth> is your ottd broken?
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16:54:17  <nielsm> btw what's the common practice for developing patches that need to bump savegame version?
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16:54:46  <peter1138> I recommend bumping the version.
16:54:55  <Wolf01> o/
16:55:03  <Wolf01> Agreed
16:55:45  <Alberth> o/
17:01:26  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> roll the dice, might come up 6 <- 20, natural critical hit, throw again to confirm
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17:13:13  <peter1138> When you look at landscape_grid.html, there's a lot of unused bits...
17:13:23  <peter1138> Maybe we can use the unused bits from over tile types.
17:13:30  <Wolf01> Yeah, one here, one there
17:14:29  <Wolf01> We might need to defrag it soon or later
17:15:29  <peter1138> :-)
17:18:36  <Wolf01> If we remove trees from saves could we add 64 roadtypes? :P
17:20:40  <peter1138> 64 treetypes
17:20:48  <nielsm>  <-- if I were to PR this, would it be better to separate the introduction of Vehicle::Travel() into a separate commit?
17:25:54  <peter1138> Why do you need subposition instead of tiles?
17:26:05  <andythenorth> we do need treetypes
17:26:10  <andythenorth> I can't remember why
17:26:15  <andythenorth> but I wrote a spec somewhere
17:26:43  <nielsm> peter1138: because I want to record the actual distance traveled, without rounding errors
17:27:09  <peter1138> Tiles is the actual distance travelled.
17:27:19  <nielsm> (this was the most immediate way I found to calculate it)
17:27:40  <andythenorth> oh yeah treetypes
17:27:57  <andythenorth> and something about "- compression of trees in map (savegame)"
17:28:37  <peter1138> andythenorth, well, that's just an issue of random data. It doesn't compress very well.
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17:28:54  <andythenorth> the idea was newgrf trees
17:29:22  <andythenorth> with a (cached result) varaction 2 chain to determine which sprites to show
17:29:34  <andythenorth> then it's just 'tree' and some random bits on the tile
17:29:57  <andythenorth> and trees could have a periodic processing cb, to handle seasonal / random changes
17:30:32  <andythenorth> naturally it could also then be abused for randomly planted 'object' sprites :D
17:31:32  <nielsm> trees that at some point in their lifecycle explode and destroy everything around them, leaving a crater
17:31:33  <nielsm> please
17:31:47  <nielsm> if you don't find and cut them down ahead of time
17:32:03  <andythenorth> I hadn't allowed for that in the spec :P
17:32:14  <andythenorth> but periodic forest fires should be possible :P
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17:49:49  <Wolf01> andythenorth: ship
17:51:17  <andythenorth> not pixels
17:51:56  <Wolf01> Are AWS down? DDoS? I can't reach half of the interwebz
17:55:19  <andythenorth>
17:55:41  <Wolf01> That's why I asked, I can't reach that page
17:55:59  <andythenorth> works for me :|
17:56:27  <Wolf01> I suspect my provider is broken
17:57:05  <Wolf01> Some sites work like a charm, full speed, other sites respond after minutes, other ones are literally unreachable
18:01:16  <andythenorth> "everything is awesome"
18:02:30  <Wolf01> 2
18:02:55  <Wolf01> I wonder if they are able to ruin it
18:19:02  <nielsm> tried a different dns provider?
18:21:13  <LANJesus>
18:24:33  <andythenorth> chicken dinner?
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18:29:48  <LANJesus> oh i'm blind. andythenorth already linked : (
18:30:44  <andythenorth> metro trains lower height than normal trains? o_O
18:38:24  <Wolf01> nielsm, yes, I'm using 3 different dns services, the problem is the route itself somewhere near the backbone which usually has problems
18:42:49  <andythenorth> so ctrl-clicking on any vehicle in an articulated consist would flip the bit on the lead vehicle
18:43:03  <andythenorth> only allowed if a flag is set
18:43:14  <andythenorth> newgrf has to handle reversing the vehicle, ottd won't do
18:43:26  <andythenorth> sounds good eh? o_O
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19:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but should it flip the order of the articulated parts?
19:06:51  <andythenorth> no
19:07:01  <andythenorth> the author has to handle all that via cb36
19:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> all applications of flipping would be easier if it did
19:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> all that i have in mind
19:07:31  <andythenorth> but then the consist would be invalid :P
19:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no, why?
19:07:55  <andythenorth> because some properties aren't valid for trailing parts
19:08:09  <andythenorth> and the lead part would be moved to last position
19:09:46  <andythenorth> hmm, cb36 for that too :P
19:09:52  <andythenorth> make author handle it
19:10:04  <Eddi|zuHause> why can't the last vehicle be the "lead" in that case?
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19:12:15  <frosch123> i think we should also newgrf to freely map functions to middle and right mouse button
19:12:38  <frosch123> just to annoy andy :)
19:13:55  <TrueBrain> [10:42] <peter1138> TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy. <- it needs the channel to be without +nt .. which is not really ideal in any sorts or form; soon this will be solved thou .. if I can find the time :D
19:14:01  <TrueBrain> (doing your garden takes more time than expected :D)
19:14:09  <andythenorth> such gardening
19:14:20  <andythenorth> also surprisingly satisfying
19:14:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: is that because I have no mouse buttons? :(
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19:23:56  <andythenorth> so is peter1138 allowed to add 2 bytes to the map array then? o_O
19:24:09  <andythenorth> I'm sure we'll all learn something from it ;)
19:26:47  <frosch123> i don't mind more map, i would make it a uint16 though
19:27:15  <frosch123> it's easier to split a uint16 into bits than to combine multiple bytes into something bigger
19:31:39  <LordAro> TrueBrain: would -nt be such a bad thing?
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19:34:43  <frosch123> i think tb wants a custom bot anyway :)
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19:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow quitting steam throws X into a 100% CPU loop
19:38:10  <andythenorth> computing is great
19:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that happens since the last update, as far as i can tell
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20:15:43  <michi_cc> Anybody here who can read arabic or hebrew? Or who can tell/show me how OpenTTD text should look like?
20:16:25  <nielsm> uh I think I can somewhat tell if it "looks right", but don't actually know the languages
20:17:20  <nielsm> (I've worked a bit with international text rendering in a different context)
20:19:02  <michi_cc> Okay, so or ?
20:19:45  <nielsm> first seems right
20:20:24  <nielsm> at least with regards to placement of punctuation and interspersed LTR/RTL
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20:21:25  <nielsm> except for the graphics and sound set description texts, those seem to use an incorrect base flow direction
20:23:27  <michi_cc> Hmm, yeah, that does seem right. Except that hebrew.txt explicitly specifies ##textdir rtl
20:23:30  <nielsm> okay
20:23:35  <nielsm> second is actually correct
20:23:46  <LordAro> lol
20:24:13  <nielsm> comparing the window title to how a text editor with correct bidi handling displays STR_SETTINGS_MENU_GAME_OPTIONS
20:24:47  <nielsm> but it still does mixed-direction content wrong
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20:25:24  <nielsm> i.e. the (GBP) in the currency dropdown
20:26:04  <nielsm> and the music set description which is untranslated ought to use LTR as base text direction
20:26:30  <nielsm> (but it gets handled as RTL so the period is placed wrong)
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20:27:10  <nielsm> possibly some of those things are best fixed by just inserting unicode directional marks in the strings to get them right
20:27:48  <michi_cc> Well, untranslated is something that is long lost by the time the string goes through the layout phase.
20:28:42  <nielsm> could the translation reader maybe prepend an LTR mark if it picks an untranslated string when the selected language is RTL?
20:28:55  <nielsm> or would that break untold numbers of things? :)
20:29:13  <michi_cc> The currency thing might actually simply be from the lang file, as that contains the (GBP) first in the string.
20:29:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so the langfile needs the LTR mark there?
20:29:41  <nielsm> huh okay I see that
20:29:43  <michi_cc> BTW, hebrew_1 is the straight ICU output (except with exceptions suppressed because otherwise it would fail half the time).
20:30:16  <michi_cc> So maybe the translation might also have been fudged to cause ICU to output what is wanted.
20:30:59  <nielsm> perhaps
20:31:10  <nielsm> have to ask the translators
20:31:32  <nielsm>
20:33:10  <nielsm> how do the strings for those two last currencies render?
20:34:29  <nielsm> and on a second thought, prepending LTR marks to untranslated strings during loading is going to break things, when things get combined in the formatting stuff
20:35:19  <nielsm> (what should it do if an untranslated string is glued into the middle of a translated one? or vice versa?)
20:38:08  <michi_cc> The string should probably be framed by LRO (or LRE, or LRI, or FSI (why do there have to be so many...)) and PDF/PDI
20:41:22  <nielsm> I still think it's going to break, better to leave it simple and just accept that incomplete translations will result in potentially broken bidi
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20:44:33  <Kilm> Hi folks
20:45:01  <Kilm> Quick question, possibly stupid, but I can't see the answer - the function that lets you see what area a path signal covers.. how do i get that to show? I'm trying very hard to understand this black magic stuff.
20:46:04  <nielsm> it's in the advanced settings somewhere
20:46:27  <nielsm> "Show path reservations for tracks"
20:46:32  <Kilm> Awesome
20:49:48  <Kilm> Oh my god
20:49:53  <Kilm> It's like suddenly understand physics
20:51:37  <nielsm> next go spend a few days with SimSig
20:51:39  <nielsm> :)
20:53:25  <Kilm> Haha, just had a look.
20:53:26  <Kilm> Nope.
20:53:27  <Kilm> :)
20:54:48  <nielsm> it's a very good teaching experience!
20:55:28  <nielsm> (and will probably give some more appreciation for the causes of train delays in real life)
20:59:21  <Kilm> I've been away from TT for over a decade, ever since I lost the save of a game I'd been playing for about nine years. It's amazing how quickly it comes back.
20:59:28  <Kilm> Though I've just realised the value of 'full load' for ratings increases.
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21:07:04  <andythenorth> such bed
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21:09:21  <Kilm> I take it the trick with Open TTD is not to really care about time?
21:09:36  <Kilm> I'm trying to understand the path and station loading stuff, and it's taking a year for a train to fully load.
21:09:47  <Kilm> So it's still making £20k profit a year, but it's only getting one run a year in.
21:09:55  <peter1138> frosch123, re uint16, I suppose so. It does mean you need more SB/GB if previously you just accessed the full byte.
21:10:08  <LordAro> Kilm: longer routes are in general more profitable
21:10:27  <peter1138> frosch123, I did actually do it as uint16 first but changed it! ;)
21:10:41  <LordAro> also, depending how you measure tiles are ~40m in length or a few hundred km
21:10:43  <LordAro> i think
21:12:20  <peter1138> less than 40m.
21:12:32  <Kilm> Yeah LordAro, I'm just trying to figure out the basics a bit more. So to make two trains of seven length wait for full cargo of coal, each one takes a year to fill but brings in £20k. If I do 'if available' then they only make £8k each.
21:12:35  <Kilm> In a year.
21:12:43  <Kilm> That's one question sorted.
21:14:28  <nielsm> if you want to optimize for company rating score, you definitely want trains to make more than 1 delivery a year on average
21:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Kilm: the key part to optimize here is that the station is never empty, always a train loading. otherwise the rating goes down, and you get less cargo to transport
21:23:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> only then you gradually tune the length of the train vs. amount of trains, so you have less time wasted loading, while not overloading your network
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21:43:37  <peter1138> Hmm, well
21:47:46  <Kilm> Ah okay.
21:48:01  <Kilm> So rather than having seven carriages sat loading for a year, trim it to for example, four and see how it works out in time vs profit
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23:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> every time someone says "singals on bridges and in tunnels is already done" i want to scream at them how wrong they are
23:50:02  <Supercheese> they really mean "signals on bridges and in tunnels is already crudely hacked in"
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