Log for #openttd on 27th May 2018:
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06:09:31  <Alberth> moin
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06:48:30  <peter1138> hi
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07:11:03  <andythenorth> o/
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07:31:50  <Alberth> o/
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08:03:22  <arahael> o/
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09:31:55  <Wolf01> o/
09:32:54  * andythenorth bbl
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10:49:39  <V453000> frosch123: I guess I can do a recolour-based-on-layer somehow? How would I do that please? the layer drawing is written as ... do I just use the same?
10:50:52  <frosch123> replace the PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT by whatever palette you want
10:51:36  <frosch123> if you want to change recolouring by cargotype you need some more switches
10:51:49  <V453000> cargo switch sounds easy
10:52:08  <V453000> the part for different layers I don't understand
10:52:19  <frosch123> cargo switch would hit a weak point of nml syntax, so would be quite long :p
10:52:59  <V453000> isn't that just ?
10:56:36  <Wolf01> Today I'm going to automate things in minecraft
10:57:54  <frosch123>
10:58:24  <V453000> OH because that's a part of the layer switch too
10:59:20  <frosch123> <- possibly like that
10:59:28  <V453000> that sounds fairly reasonable
11:04:07  <V453000> what does this do then? CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES
11:04:47  <frosch123> the layers are resolved in sequence
11:05:05  <frosch123> first 0, then 1, then 2, ... until it no longer says CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES
11:05:36  <frosch123> <- in your first example you return CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES for layer 0 to 3
11:05:46  <frosch123> with the "default" you draw the cargo layer 3 times
11:06:26  <V453000> well yeah but you wrote that so I have no idea what it does :P
11:07:49  <frosch123> the artists thought "he's an awesome programmer", the programmers thought "he's an awesome artist"?
11:08:16  <V453000> ish :D
11:09:03  <frosch123> it's an adapted quote from a book by clifford stoll
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11:27:37  <V453000> should this be compatible with colour_mapping?
11:28:53  <V453000> hm, this only draws an uncolored wagon layer, not cargo
11:36:53  <frosch123> V453000: PALEETE_USE_DEFAULT means to use the palette from colour_mapping
11:38:17  <frosch123> in your last example you use COLOUR_xxx, i am pretty sure those are the wrong constants
11:39:05  <frosch123> <- you need to use those
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11:40:08  <frosch123> V453000: also you are missing the MORE_SPRITES in layer 0 now, so it stops after layer 0
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11:44:54  <V453000> COLOUR_RED and COLOUR_BLUE worked for me elsewhere
11:45:33  <V453000> how would I add the MORE_SPRITES thing to the thing? The < 4 ? CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES : 0 doesn't make much sense to me :d
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12:05:39  <frosch123> just do PALETTE_xxx + MORE_SPRITES
12:06:05  <frosch123> the "<4 ? :" made stuff in one switch, which is now done in multiple
12:06:39  <frosch123> "condition ? value if true : value if false"
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12:16:20  <nielsm> I want this as a graphics set!
12:19:42  <LordAro> isn't that one of V453000's sets?
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12:40:00  <V453000> not yet
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12:50:10  <andythenorth> frosch123 seems to be quoting about me :P
12:50:21  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Can give a quick test?
12:50:28  <andythenorth> sure
12:55:00  <andythenorth> michi_cc: PR updated
12:55:10  <michi_cc> Thanks.
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14:31:23  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: nice work :D
14:32:11  <LordAro> TrueBrain: o/
14:33:49  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: BTW, did you see ?
14:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what? that's even more april 1st than the notepad one :p
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14:55:21  <Cthulhux> oh
14:55:29  <Cthulhux> damn permalinks
14:55:43  <Cthulhux> i was hoping microsoft would finally support the C11 standard :(
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14:58:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: rotary changeover catches
14:58:44  <Wolf01> Yeah
14:58:58  <Wolf01> I already need them
14:59:08  <andythenorth> I needed them for years
14:59:11  <andythenorth> just didn't know it
14:59:29  <andythenorth> I always hate placing the changeover catch
15:00:46  <Wolf01> It would solve also my joystick fucntions switch
15:01:13  <andythenorth> I think it means that two catches can be synchronised too
15:01:21  <andythenorth> if I've understood it correctly
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15:09:56  <andythenorth> very pull request, such github
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15:41:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. i must be doing it wrong, i got my hands on a totally-legit copy of Zak McKracken, and loaded it in ScummVM, everything seems to work, except when i use the blue crystal on an animal, it doesn't switch characters
15:41:51  <Wolf01> Might be a bug with the scummvm
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16:00:16  <markyisri> I think this might be a very silly question, but I am using JGR's Patch Pack and I can't find the "Shared infrastructure" window. Here's a screenshot of what I am looking for:
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16:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> man, i have a 5¼" disk labelled "Win95 startdisk"
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16:30:03  <andythenorth> wow
16:30:18  <andythenorth> would win95 really fit? :o
16:30:55  <nielsm> I think it's just a DOS disk with a few troubleshooting utilities
16:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just the emergency bootdisk
16:32:45  <Eddi|zuHause> which is basically the same as previous DOS bootdisks
16:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no graphical frontend
16:33:19  * andythenorth re-learning disks on wikipedia
16:33:41  <andythenorth> I had forgotten all about things like DSDD
16:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> man, pretty much all my disks are DSHD
16:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have no disk drive in a running computer
16:34:26  <andythenorth> this stuff used to really matter :P
16:34:38  <andythenorth> when you needed to span pirated games across multiple disks
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16:35:00  <andythenorth> and the sheer amount of time we used to spend just backing up disks for safety
16:35:14  <andythenorth> on a single disk drive machine, that meant a RAM copy
16:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i even had a program called "VGACopy" which could format the 3½" HD disks in 1.7MB instead of 1.44MB
16:35:25  <andythenorth> on a 2MB machine, a 1.44MB disk was workable
16:35:47  <andythenorth> yeah, I remember people had disk stuffing tricks
16:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i once used that to install Win95 on a computer with no CD drive
16:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> because Win95 install files would naturally fit on those
16:36:49  <andythenorth> hmm
16:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (i assume that was a copy-protection feature)
16:37:02  <andythenorth> in my cupboard I have emergency mac boot disks :P
16:37:09  <andythenorth> they are 256MB hard drives :P
16:37:58  <andythenorth> ha, these
16:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> win95 also came in diskette versions, and the CD basically had all the diskettes as a single directory
16:38:06  <andythenorth> and the time spent sorting the order of the disks :P
16:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could split it back into the diskettes, if you had the ability to format 1.7MB
16:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the first two disk were the installer and some misc tools, and the other 20-ish were just one single .cab file
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16:39:54  <RedJimi> a pack disks was a proper gift back then, at least among my friends
16:39:58  <andythenorth> yair
16:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for a birthday i got a disk container box and 30 diskettes
16:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i still have these
16:42:03  <andythenorth> nobody would give a USB stick for a birthday present, right?
16:42:16  <andythenorth> "I bought you some cloud storage" :P
16:42:49  <frosch123> 15 years ago, usb stick was a fine present
16:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> my parents got an USB stick for christmas from my sister... but not because of the storage space, but because they contained like a video of the baby
16:44:32  <RedJimi> We once transferred Diablo 1 (i think) from one machine to another just flipping two disks across. One was running ARJ a -va a:archive *.* and the other ARJ x -v a:archive
16:45:04  <RedJimi> or maybe diablo 2 or something big like that. It was a lan party, but our hub broke down
16:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's basically how i did it, i had two disks, and while the one was busy installing, the other was being copied the .cab file on
16:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> modulo word order
16:47:00  <RedJimi> it's basically just a network with weird packets.
16:47:37  <Eddi|zuHause> never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck loaded with disks driving down a highway
16:50:27  * RedJimi makes a congestion joke
16:54:41  <RedJimi> so, back to OTTD. I played a bunch of the original TT back in the day. Might've been my first LAN game when I played it with my brother.
16:54:55  <RedJimi> I started digging on what the scene is about nowadays. It seems people play with mods a lot, am I right?
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16:55:56  <andythenorth> some people play with a lot of mods yes
16:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... maybe? we only see a tiny subset of users around here. the further outside this "core" group, the less likely they use any fancy mods
16:56:05  <andythenorth> probably some either don't find the mods, or play purist
16:56:15  * andythenorth bbl
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16:59:32  <RedJimi> ok, I'm more of vanilla guy myself. That being said, I noticed the plethora of translations and though it might be a good thing to help with some of those.
17:01:08  <RedJimi> The game seems to automatically picks up my Finnish Win10 UI and use the appropriate translation.
17:02:00  <RedJimi> but the translations list says it has around 11 things "missing"
17:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the magic of ISO language codes
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17:02:41  <RedJimi> does anyone here know about the translations in spesific?
17:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a wiki page on how to sign up as a translator
17:05:03  <RedJimi> ah yes, something like this I ran into,
17:06:41  <RedJimi> According to the logs, in 2013-07-24 one SamanthaD asked about Klingon translation. I was wondering how that could work.
17:07:56  <V453000> :D wtf.
17:08:38  <RedJimi> exactly.
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17:10:15  <RedJimi> I believe it would be possible, but I'm not sure how to proceed on that. The ISO code for klingon is "tlh", but the rest is a blur to me.
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17:16:21  <Alberth> there are around a 4000 strings to translate
17:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> we once had a piglatin translation
17:17:12  <LordAro> some of the dead translations should probably be removed, tbh
17:17:14  <Alberth> although I am not sure you can actually select klingon as language, it would need to be in the newgrf spec language list, I guess
17:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but we decided we didn't want to have these "fun" translations
17:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't see why that wouldn't work
17:19:03  <Alberth> I mean, a dropdown to select a language would need to include the klingon language
17:22:57  <Alberth> hmm, it might be automagic I guess
17:23:18  <RedJimi> I have begun hacking away at a language file.
17:23:38  <LordAro> oh no
17:23:59  <RedJimi> it's just a work file, no need to worry
17:24:22  <Alberth> you may want to verify that you can include the file in your install first :p
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17:25:16  <Alberth> at the very least you need to run strgen on it to compile the language file
17:25:27  <RedJimi> I'm just doing it for funsies. The lack of vocabulary can prove too big an obstacle
17:26:06  <Alberth> just use "stuff" for every thing you have no name for :)
17:26:36  <Alberth> stuff goes to stuff where it is stuufed to other stuff
17:27:06  <RedJimi> transported from stuff to stuff via stufffff
17:28:00  <RedJimi> The real problem is that I think this should be done with a proper klingon font and not with latin letters.
17:28:39  <nielsm> there's fonts with the proper glyphs aren't there?
17:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's in unicode, it can be written
17:29:39  <RedJimi> I guess, but getting them to OTTD? It's an untrodden path.
17:30:51  <RedJimi> The Klingon space (pun intended) is somewhere in U+F8Dx - U+F8Fx
17:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:31:57  <RedJimi> that's the one, but do i need to conjure up a pixelated font or something?
17:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hope that range doesn't overlap with our use of the plane/train/whatever glyphs
17:32:10  <nielsm> you could also translate to ancient egyptian written in hieroglyphs
17:32:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no, if the pixel font doesn't have it, the game automatically selects a truetype font from the system
17:32:26  <RedJimi> well.. i actually might
17:32:39  <RedJimi> but it's the same problem with vocabulary
17:33:19  <nielsm> people are inventing new latin words for modern things, you can do the same
17:34:12  <RedJimi> Indeed. "Royal-Iron-Horse Carriage" for locomotive.
17:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fine to invent new words, but it would help if you'd not be the only person to ever use them :p
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17:35:00  <RedJimi> If it's really doable, I'm passing the idea to the community.
17:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that just means it'll never be done
17:36:12  <RedJimi> No, they're quite protective of misusing the language. I'll just shove my translations there and ask for improvements
17:36:19  <RedJimi> they cannot resist it.
17:38:31  <nielsm> but yes if a (fictional) language uses the private use area for encoding it might very well clash with OTTD text handling
17:39:02  <nielsm> actually, will strgen complain if it finds reserved PUA characters in the input text?
17:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> who knows...
17:39:32  <RedJimi> I currently don't know strgen at all.
17:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be a warning at best, easy to ignore
17:41:42  <RedJimi> The problem is mainly with the two letter abbreviations with cargo names and such. "Htlh" doesn't really look two letter, now does it.
17:41:59  <RedJimi> otherwise the latin letters would suffice.
17:43:04  <nielsm> strgen will complain
17:43:05  <nielsm> a lot
17:43:06  <nielsm>
17:44:33  <nielsm> klingon script is not actually encoded inside the range OTTD uses of the PUA, but it will still be rejected
17:45:27  <LordAro> can pretend it's something else for testing purposes
17:45:41  <RedJimi> I guess this is an argument for getting Klingon a real UTF space
17:46:14  <RedJimi> it's been rejected several times now - can't imagine why
17:47:18  <LordAro> it's not in emoji form
17:49:29  <nielsm> OTTD only realle reserved E000 to E2FF of the PUA so strgen could be patched to allow characters in the rest of the range... it clashes with some of the ConScript registrations but most will be usable
17:51:26  <RedJimi> so, there is a way?
17:51:42  <nielsm> could just modify strgen to not reject the characters, yes
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17:51:56  <nielsm> and instruct the game to use Code2000 as truetype font
17:53:07  <RedJimi> I'm just becoming skeptical on how the ttf chars look in small size. Maybe I'll devise a Kli pixel font after all.
17:53:55  <RedJimi> one problem at a time
17:54:05  <RedJimi> first I'll assing to fix that Finnish translation
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17:54:38  <LordAro> yeah, maybe work on the real language first :p
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17:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: if there's an automatic mapping from english transcript to klingon script, that could be special-cased in strgen
17:55:52  <nielsm> not sure how but at least the japanese translation forces gigantic font size for me
18:04:49  <__ln__> 20:17 < Eddi|zuHause> but we decided we didn't want to have these "fun" translations  <-- there's already dutch
18:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i would have said esperanto, but close enough i guess :p
18:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: from dutch people i only ever heard "i use every thing in english, because software in dutch is unusable" or something like that
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18:09:41  <RedJimi> small languages do suffer from bad translations
18:10:30  <RedJimi> besides, if you run into a problem and your software is in not-English, there's very little in ways of help in the internet for you.
18:11:07  <__ln__> the dutch wouldn't appreciate you calling it a small language. 23 million native speakers.
18:11:42  <RedJimi> I was speaking on my own behalf, still being Finnish and all
18:11:50  <snail_UES_> I had the same problem with Italian, which was translated by a non-native speaker in some sets
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18:12:17  <snail_UES_> and the quality was awful… basically incomprehensible
18:12:18  <snail_UES_> only native speakers should do translations
18:13:40  <RedJimi> snail_UES_: Spot on. I might also not use engineers as translators, ever.
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18:16:53  <__ln__> snail_UES_: are we going to find a native klingon speaker?
18:18:00  <snail_UES_> do we need to translate in languages having no native speakers?
18:18:43  <RedJimi> maybe Mark Okrand, Robyn Stewart or Lieven Litaer could count as "close to native"
18:18:50  <RedJimi> there's a bunch of others
18:20:16  <RedJimi> I do understand that conlangs aren't a priority and seem more like an exercise than real work.
18:20:39  <LordAro> insisting on native speakers seems ..unnecessary
18:20:59  <LordAro> being fluent in a language would be enough
18:22:11  <RedJimi> I agree that it's normally a guarantee of at least some profiency in a language.
18:23:19  <LordAro> i.e. most of the people in this channel are non-native english speakers
18:23:23  <nielsm> RedJimi if you dare to download random binaries, here's a patched strgen that shouldn't complain about most characters in the unicode PUA, allowing you to use the ConScript klingon encoding:
18:23:43  <RedJimi> thx, sir
18:25:45  <RedJimi> Klingon, among conlangs, has seen some increase in interest after the new Star Trek -show, Discovery started. Netflix even has full Klingon subtitles.
18:26:11  <RedJimi> and then there's the Duolingo-language learning app on android/iphone/? that picked it up.
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18:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the more you relax this rule, the more reviewing of changes must happen
18:51:09  <snail_UES_> the issue is that people might overestimate their degree of fluency :p
18:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, on the other side, some of the worst english i have ever read was from english native speakers
18:54:33  <andythenorth> we don't have to use it properly
18:54:40  <andythenorth> we get by despite mistakes
18:55:16  <andythenorth> although written English is also very prone to misunderstandings
18:55:56  <LordAro> the accents are especially fun
18:55:58  <LordAro> innit
18:56:00  <andythenorth> innit
19:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are german accents that i don't understand a word of
19:18:24  <andythenorth> so is peter1138 riding a bike?
19:18:25  <andythenorth> o_O
19:26:43  <LordAro> he did that this morning
19:26:50  <LordAro> i guess he could be again
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19:33:46  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are german accents that i don't understand a word of <- me too :>
19:34:00  <andythenorth> how does something like this get reviewed?
19:34:11  <andythenorth> do I just test it and say 'works for me', or what?
19:34:50  <LordAro> for a functional review, yeah
19:35:08  <LordAro> code review needs some more knowledge about the code that's being modified
19:35:25  <LordAro> which joanjosep appears to have
19:36:26  <nielsm> I think anyone submitting a PR will appreciate "this is a good idea/bad idea (because reasons)" and "this patch works as described/doesn't seem to work in these cases" comments
19:36:47  <michi_cc> glx: Any chance you check with MinGW?
19:37:08  <michi_cc> +could
19:37:09  <andythenorth> I have a feeling that a large proportion of actual commits went in with no review at all :)
19:37:15  <andythenorth> having been around here for 10 years
19:37:28  <andythenorth> unless all review was DM / email
19:37:42  <michi_cc> andythenorth: sicrit IRC channels :)
19:37:49  <andythenorth> I was in the secret one :P
19:38:00  <andythenorth> it was tumbleweed
19:38:06  <andythenorth> unless that was just the honeypot
19:38:19  <glx> michi_cc: ah yes I can do that :)
19:38:21  <michi_cc> I don't mean .dev
19:39:07  <andythenorth> oh so that was just the honeypot
19:39:17  <LordAro> it's also in the topic
19:39:21  <LordAro> hardly secret :p
19:39:25  <andythenorth> I am in favour of review, I just think it's misunderstood
19:39:45  <andythenorth> I think reviewing is a good introductory activity for new people
19:39:46  <Wolf01> I should join that one too :P
19:40:02  <andythenorth> it's not really about code quality for established committers
19:40:06  <LordAro> i have no issues with devs merging their own PRs, if no one's said anything negative about them after a day or 2
19:40:15  <andythenorth> already we have unknown new people turning up and doing nice comments on PRs
19:41:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: everything got reviewed until like 3 years ago, then there were too few people
19:41:31  <andythenorth> that chimes
19:41:32  <michi_cc> LordAro: Except maybe TB or so, even we can't approve ourself.
19:41:52  <glx> yeah we usually submitted our .diff to others for checking
19:42:03  <andythenorth> sounds painful
19:43:15  <glx> unless for obvious fixes
19:44:34  <LordAro> michi_cc: mm, not sure github has that sort of granularity
19:45:14  <glx> admins can merge even if it's red
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19:51:40  <glx> michi_cc: configure works, good start
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20:18:13  <glx> michi_cc: but compile fails :(
20:33:17  <peter1138> Well
20:33:45  <peter1138> Easiest way for devs to get their own stuff in is to have 2 accounts ;p
20:33:59  <glx> lol
20:36:20  <andythenorth> o_O
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20:37:59  <peter1138> Right, firing up virtual Debian.
20:39:57  <__ln__> as for the previous subject, being native in some language doesn't seem to imply one would be necessarily good at translating into that language.
20:45:15  <michi_cc> glx: Try again?
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20:53:59  <glx> oh you kept WITH_ICU_SORT for MSVC it seems, but removed for MinGW
20:55:06  <peter1138> Hmm, what's the function to get direction between two tiles?
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20:55:27  <peter1138> DiagdirBetweenTiles is not it.
20:57:24  <LordAro> is it not?
20:57:45  <peter1138> Only works if the it's a X or Y is the same
20:58:14  <RedJimi> __ln__: It would seem so. Literary skill and creativity in the destination language seem to play a good part in that. I sure am not great as a Klingonist by either measure.
21:00:37  <glx> ok compiled, let's run it
21:01:09  <michi_cc> glx: "Change: [Win32] Use Uniscribe instead of ICU for text caret handling." should have removed all ICU from the project files unless I missed one.
21:02:44  <glx> still present in at least vs100.vcxproj
21:03:16  <glx> libs and define
21:04:00  <glx> oh probably a missing generate run
21:04:22  <glx> as the .in seems ok
21:05:33  <glx> indeed same for vs140
21:05:44  <glx> .in is ok, .vcproj is not
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21:12:25  <michi_cc> Yeah, you're right. I think I missed that when rebasing onto the direct music commits.
21:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> typical steam: base game+expansion: 8€, just the expansion: 10€
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22:12:09  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:41:13  <Thedarkb1-X40> One of my trains just went in down the wrong track for apparently no reason.

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